view," asked how she'd differentiate herself from biden and didn't really have an answer. how much of a role do you think that played? >> many of them think she should have been able to separate herself from the president who was unpopular, period. but that was not something she did. i'm sure the next few weeks will help us understand why but, yeah, that definitely did not help her. >> yeah, some of the loyalty, i'm certain, but that was a pivotal moment to be sure. lots of analysis ahead as to where democrats go from here. national politics reporter john allen, thank you, as always. we'll talk again real soon. thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. my heart is full today. full of gratitude for the trust you have placed in me. full of love for our country. and full of resolve.

the outcome of this election is not what we wanted, not what we fought for, not what we voted for, but hear me when i say, hear me when i say, the light of america's promise will always burn bright. [ applause ] as long as we never give up and as long as we keep fighting. now, i know folks are feeling and experiencing a range of emotions right now. i get it. but we must accept the results of this election. a fundamental principle of american democracy is that when we lose an election, we accept the results. that principle, as much as any

other, distinguishes democracy from monarch or tyranny. and anyone who seeks the public trust must honor it. >> part of yesterday's concession speech from vice president kamala harris in washington, d.c., as she promised to keep fighting for democracy. equal rights and the rule of law. ahead of that speech, vice president harris called president-elect trump to congratulate him. according to a senior harris aide, the vice president discussed the importance of a peaceful transfer of power and being a president for all americans. the trump campaign also put out a statement reading in part, "president trump acknowledged vice president harris on her strength, professionalism, and tenacity throughout the campaign. and both leaders agreed on the importance of unifying the country." president biden also spoke with president-elect trump over the phone yesterday to congratulate

him and to express his commitment to a smooth transition of power. biden also invited trump to meet him at the white house, though no date has been set. biden will address the nation this morning at 11:00 a.m. regarding the election results. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's only thursday, november 7th, joe. >> ha! >> kind of feel like -- >> i thought yesterday was friday, right? >> i know you did. >> the end of the week, yeah. well, no, it was a great -- i thought it was a great speech by kamala harris. i thought she obviously, for good reasons, still sort of in that campaign mode. obviously, though she, again, i think she hit the marks throughout the campaign and did extremely well. i think she did far better than most people expected her to do at the beginning of that very short and abbreviated campaign.

it was such an extraordinarily short and abbreviated campaign. in the states, you know, you look. there's a lot of things to look at across the map that you see, states like texas and florida and ohio, those have just gone so deeply red, compared to even where they were four years ago when joe biden was getting closer. certainly in texas and within three or four in florida. but those states are deep, deep red. ohio, a deep, deep red. pennsylvania is -- party registration has gotten far more republican over the last several years. the races were still close, though, willie, in wisconsin. still close in michigan. pennsylvania was more like 2 percentage points. we had democrats winning wisconsin and michigan

yesterday. pennsylvania still up in the air right now, but that's looking like that's going to go to dave mccormick, but it is still very close. there were such transformational changes in this race yesterday. you know, jonathan asked at the end of his show, where should democrats go from here? i'd suggest france for a couple of weeks and think it over. 32% of americans, only 32% of americans who voted identified themselves as democrats. donald trump won, if i'm not mistaken, i think i saw this in mike allen's newsletter, one of three votes from people of color. and donald trump has put together a working class coalition across racial lines. >> yeah. >> that nobody has done in this country in over 50 years.

and so, yes, people need to look back at the campaign, and they certainly should feel free to call out donald trump for all the things that he said that were shocking and deeply offensive. but if you're a democrat right now and think that's going to get you elected four years from now, it didn't get you elected a couple of nights ago. again, it's time for the democrats to look in the mirror and figure out exactly what went wrong. i think, willie, you and i have been talking about it over the last four years or so, it shouldn't be really that hard for them to figure out exactly where they went wrong. we'll just see if they're self-aware enough to do it. >> yeah, i mean, this is a massive structural problem now for the democratic party. so there's been all this sort of monday morning quarterbacking about the vice presidential choice and all these things we traditionally hear. that would not have made a difference, let's be clear about that. about the shortened campaign,

that, of course, was difficult. kamala harris didn't have time to introduce herself in a way that, say, barack obama did. but as a fact of the matter, donald trump just wiped out the democratic party. sometimes as a political opponent, as you know, joe, you have to tip your cap to the other side. not for the rhetoric, not for the behavior, but for the way he won. the people he brought into his party. the people who felt they didn't have a home. latino men, some young black men, as well, even women, young people. he did much better with young people than most people expected. that is a big shift that the democratic party has to reckon with. at this moment, i'm not sure what the way back is for democrats when you've been wiped out. donald trump did better in 48 of the 50 states than he did last time around, despite everything that was coming at him. democrats need to sit and think about what happened. the question will be, do they have the will to change?

do they have a message that will be appealing to those people that donald trump now brought into his coalition? >> i don't -- again, i hate monday morning quarterbacking here, i really do, and i don't want this to be taken as a blanket criticism for the people that were running kamala harris' campaign, because they were great. jen o'malley dillon, the best on the ground that there is. she was facing, though -- there was a red wave this year. >> yeah. >> the press got it wrong and the pollsters got it wrong two years ago. that wave was somewhere out, coming off of africa and moving across the atlantic and coming. it just took it two years more to get here. man, it crashed on shore two nights ago. but, jonathan lemire, there was some reluctance to go there, to talk about the things that were concerning americans, that

really mattered this year. illegal immigration, the mass border crossings. yes, they put a bill out there, and, yes, that was good, but there wasn't anything more definitive on it than that. that was something that concerned hispanic voters. it's something that concerned black voters. that is something that concerned all voters. we will talk again, and we have been talking about the transgerd ad we were talking about on this show, kept talking about it, saying, this is going to be a problem in the three states you need. there is a financial times article. they don't understand my life. this is "the financial times." the trump campaign spent millions of dollars on ads focusing on transgender issues in the final stretch of the race. kamala is for they/them, one said. trump is for you.

quote, the ads on transgender stuff were unsettling to the people, said the chair of the democratic party in wisconsin's republican stronghold in the milwaukee suburbs that broke for trump. i mean, you don't have to be a republican, though i was a republican. you don't have to be a conservative, though i was a conservative, to understand that seeing ad after ad in nfl football games, saying that taxpayers were going to be funding transgender surgeries for inmates, it's not something that is going to play well in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, among men. yet, they didn't respond to it because they were afraid to respond to it, because it might offend some small subset of their base. the thing is, nobody is saying to be anything but kind to all

americans. this just had to do with responding to the ad and saying, hey, wait a second, that was donald trump's policy that they're attacking. but they wouldn't even do that because, again, they're afraid to offend. always afraid to offend. always afraid to offend on border security. always afraid to offend on so many other issues. 32%, and they have lost working class america. the question is, how long until they understand that this isn't just about tax cuts, this isn't just about economics, this is about cultural markers that matter greatly in these people's lives? >> yeah. this is certainly a second-guessing among democrats, that they should have had a more robust response to that argument. there's a lot of finger pointing in the party right now. let's be clear, president biden's legislative record will bust, but even in real time, his west wing acknowledged they were

slow to address two issues, immigration and inflation. they feel like they made progress on both, but that was a lasting impression made on voters. republicans hammered it home. there's also a similarity here to what we saw in 2016. the first time donald trump was re-elected, where he appealed to these working class voters who felt like, then it was the recovery from the great recession. this time around, the recovery from the pandemic and resulting inflation. they thought it was uneven, unfair. elites continued to do well, but the working class suffered. we saw that at the ballot box. not only did trump continue to do really well with white working class voters. he made real inroads with latino voters, as we discussed at length yesterday, a little bit with black voters. he also made modest gains in the suburbs. it was across the board. it wasn't just 48 out of 50 states that he did well in, as willie mentioned. he improved his marks in more than 90% of the nation's counties. this was across the board. the victory here for republicans

and, mika, as for democrats, kamala harris received about 14 million fewer votes than joe biden did four years ago. that is a staggering number. they have a lot of figuring out to do. that process begins right now, to how to rebuild a coalition that seems to be badly fractured. >> i think another part of this, just not to make it exactly everything the democrats did was wrong, i think there was a lot of disinformation out there. i heard a segment the end of your show, how she needed to separate herself more from joe biden because he was so unpopular. why was he so unpopular? was his presidency a failure? can i have an answer on that? was he presidency a failure, gene? >> no, it was not a failure, actually. it was a very successful presidency, in my opinion. yeah, right, look, there will be a whole lot of lessons, i think, for the democratic party to learn from this election. i think they might take joe's

advice and go into the trip to france phase for the next couple weeks. then really go into the numbers. why did so many fewer people bother to vote this time? not just for harris but the overall vote totals are lower. a lot of people didn't -- just didn't show up. that surprised me. why was that? >> i spoke to people who were canvassing in all the different swing states, some people i knew really well, and they were stunned at how disinformed people were that they were talking to. they were just stunned at what they were saying, because it was just beyond even close to the truth. >> yeah, yeah. >> that's a big part of this. it's not all of it. joe, i know we need to get to our other guests, but i just think it's -- obviously, there's a lot of questions that's going to be asked and looked into and really legitimate reasons to

look within for sure. >> right. >> at the same time, the landscape is a sea of voices and websites and places to go for information that is simply not true and then is backed up again and again and again and again until it becomes narrative. >> you fight on the battlefield that is before you. so if there is disinformation on the battlefield that is before you, you can runoff of that battlefield screeching and crying with your arms thrown up in the air, or you can figure out how to engage in that battlefield and win. it's that simple. and i understand there is a ton of disinformation out there, and it is sickening. i understand that. i also understand the disinformation will only be worse four years from now. so the question is, what will democrats or what will independents or what will republicans who don't support an authoritarian -- >> starting now. >> -- version of government, what are they going to do right

now instead of complaining? >> exactly. >> complaining doesn't get there. >> totally agree. >> we showed the numbers. gene, if you can, t.j., put the numbers up, of the number of people who voted again, if you will, t.j. you know, right now, donald trump is sitting at 72 million. i suppose the number will go up as more votes come in from california. i'd guess he's probably not going to reach his vote total from last time, which was 77 million. >> exactly. >> he had 77 million votes last time and still lost, which means a ton of people, you know, over 10 million people stayed home who voted for the democrat last time. over 15 million people stayed home who voted for the democrat last time. gene, reports out of detroit, reports out of philadelphia, that the numbers especially for black voters were way down. when we talked to reverend al about a week before, he talked about how when he was canvassing in detroit, there just wasn't the excitement among black

voters for this democratic ticket. >> yeah, there wasn't. so why was that? the answer has to be that democrats were not getting their message through. they certainly didn't get through the sense of urgency to vote, but they -- you know, if you don't get the votes, you're not giving people a reason to come vote for you. the party has a lot to figure out. i mean, what's going to be -- when parties get defeated, and this is, you know, this is far from the biggest margin. you know, this isn't like reagan in '84 or anything like that. but as john lemire said, 90% of counties, you know, trending in what, for democrats, is the wrong direction, trending in the republican direction. when that happens, you need to

really look at those numbers, look at yourselves, and figure out what affirmative case you're going to make to people that you're going to make their lives better, and is that you understand that, that you're with them. that's going to -- that process, i think, probably is already started. it should have. it will continue. but parties in this situation do tend to figure it out eventually. you know, that's where bill clinton came from, after the democratic debacle. so we will see this evolution of the democratic party over the next couple of years. >> willie, trump even made progress, inroads in deep blue new york city. still lost it overwhelmingly, but by less of a margin than last time around. as democrats noted last night, we shouldn't ignore, this was a

candidate who was a woman and woman of color, and for some americans, they weren't ready to do that. >> donald trump got 30% in new york city. 30%. he got 7% in 2020. let's bring into the conversation managing editor at "the bulwark," sam stein. author and nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss. guys, good morning. sam, i'll start with you. just to pick up and continue this conversation, i was thinking back yesterday to what, at the time, was viewed a curious visit by donald trump to the south bronx to have a rally back in may. a lot of people who didn't get it said, what's he doing there? well, it's clear what he was doing. he was sending the message to people there, to latino americans, to black americans, that i see you. i hear you. i care about you. i'm here. i may not win. i probably won't win this district. i won't win new york city. i won't win new york state. but i'm taking the time to let you know i see that. democratic congressman ritchie torres who represents the south bronx, a democrat, is very critical this morning and over the last couple days of the

democratic party, of the way they ignored the concerns of latino americans. yes, there may be disinformation out there. of course there is. but what wasn't disinformation was the fact that groceries and rent and all the things that people need to live their lives every day were still far too high for americans of every race. >> yeah, i mean, there's a couple of factors at play here. obviously, when, you know, two-thirds, three-fourths of the country think the country is on the wrong track, it's not great for the incumbency. obviously, people felt inflation harder than they felt the rise in their own wages. but on the thing you said about the trip to the bronx, and on the point joe made about fighting on the battlefield presented, i think one of the things that democrats specifically, but we generally should recognize, is that trump was very good at sending cultural signals. that trip to the bronx wasn't about winning the bronx. to a degree, it was about signaling to those people, i

care about you. it was also about creating these types of moments that everyone will consume. it's why he went to coachella. it is why he went to madison square garden, as problematic as that rally was. it is why he worked the shift at mcdonald's. it is why he jumped in a garbage truck and nearly face planted when he couldn't open the door. it was because they wanted to create these moments that everyone would consume on the internet. frankly, democrats are not very good at that type of organic content creation. it's notable that the harris campaign, which admittedly was short runway and all, a lot of what they were doing is they were bringing creators to their events so the creators could create the content. they weren't putting harris in a position where she was creating the content for the creators. that was a main distinction. joe is absolutely right. i mean, you have to fight on the battlefield where it is presented. in these postmortem, i know we're just a day i, but virtually every democrat i

talked to said, we cannot win if our people are not on these podcasts, these bro podcasts, these right-wing youtube shows, and fox news, frankly. if all the country is going to get, or a good chunk of the country is going to get their information from those people, if those outlets are going to caricature our candidates, we have to combat that caricaturization. last point, and i'll stop talking after that. one of the more interesting in a moments of this campaign took place in the wake of the hurricanes in north carolina. there was rampant disinformation, much of it pushed by elon musk. one of the ways in which that disinformation was stopped was when pete buttigieg decided to get on the phone with elon musk, direct engagement. suddenly, elon musk was like, you know what? i talked to pete buttigieg. this is actually not happening. we got it fixed. some of it stopped. that's proof positive that you have to engage directly the

adversarial sources, or else what they say about you will take root with the voting public. >> yeah, and when you do that, you have to have the answers that make sense to most americans. >> right. >> so, yeah, were there too many border crossings? yeah, way too many. there were way too many. we didn't understand. we let it get out of control because we didn't understand just how depressed the situation was in central america. we didn't understand. there were people going over there. they were caught off guard. we turned it around. after we turned it around, that's when we put this border security bill out there that border agents themselves support. took us a couple of years to figure it out, and that was terrible. but it will never happen again. we learned from our mistake. say that. then, you know, if you're going to go on fox and they'll ask you about the 30,000 ads on transgender surgeries for

convicts, that taxpayers have to pay for, go, no, i oppose that. did i support it in '19? that was donald trump's. well, i said it, but it was actually his policy. i think we were both wrong. we were both wrong. going forward, da, da, da. however you want to do it. whatever issue you want to talk about, you have to be able to say it and make sure that you're willing to stand up to the extremes in your party that are pushing an agenda that puts you, according to reverend al sharpton, outside the mainstream of 80% of people, not only in your party, but 95% of the people across america. >> let me quickly say, i 100% a agree with that. the thing talking with democrats, they say their candidates are too worried about misstating something or offending someone or getting it wrong and getting that turned into some sort of viral moment. when, in reality, i think trump, and to a degree joe biden, actually, have proven that if

you create a familiarity with the public, even if you screw up or say something offensive or put your foot in your mouth, the public, if they become familiar with you, will forgive you for that. they'll move on. oftentimes, there are these candidates that are too cautious, too scared of offending, and, therefore, they restrict the forms and outlets on which they go. >> but let me quote reverend al sharpton from this morning. the democratic party is led by beltway insiders and not people on the ground. i exist only as a civil rights leader, and i have lasted as long as i have because there is a huge vacuum that must be filled. and so you're exactly right. the beltway insiders are the people who are seen as out of touch with middle class, working class americans, which gets me, michael beschloss, to something that's fascinating i read in

"the new york times" today. again, people go, what are they doing? why do they say donald trump is evil? you can do that if you want to lose for the next four years, the next eight years. >> right. >> this problem at this point is, like, the party. whether it's a democratic party or an independent party that fills a centrist role in american politics. right now, only 32% of americans support or identify as democrats. michael beschloss, the voting coalition that donald trump put together -- and, again, i would suggest not because of the things he said and the horrible statements that he's said and the anti-democratic, pro-authoritarian statements that he's said -- but what people were trying to get away from, democratic elitists. >> joe, that's exactly -- >> the coalition they put together. i'm sorry. i'm still thinking it's friday so i'm talking slower today.

the coalition -- >> i'm just agreeing. >> okay. according to "the new york times," it was a working class coalition across racial lines. i remember reading a beautiful book written about bobby kennedy and after the assassination. as the train went from new york down to washington, d.c., and people waving, black people on one side of the tracks waving flags, white people on the other side of the tracks waving flags, i'm sure you saw it. as the train went past, they turned around and went their separate ways. >> yeah. >> there has not been an election where they came together and voted again. now, let's not overstate donald trump's support among black voters. he did much better. but make no mistake, among hispanic voters, they did come together with working class white americans.

so donald trump has, in 2024, put together a working class coalition of white working class voters and working class voters of people of color. that is something, if the democratic party does not think that is something they need to get under the hood of right now, today, this morning, then they are clueless. >> yes, i totally agree with that. you know what it's beginning to remind me, joe? you were showing the map of blue, democratic areas that won on tuesday versus the red ones. you know, look where the blue areas are. the democrats are in danger of becoming a regional, coastal party. you know, the so-called blue wall states, well, they didn't prove to be a blue wall on tuesday. so you've got states along the west coast, states along the east coast, couple in the northern midwest, and the democrats concede everything else and say, you know, we're

going to essentially let that go because we're not going to be connected. so the result of that is that every single presidential election now becomes what it did on tuesday, a democratic presidential candidate having to thread the needle of making sure he or she seizes those few potentially democratic states. if you lose one or two, and there was more than that on tuesday, the democrats are locked out. i'm not going to go so far as to say it is like the 1920s, but, you know, you grew up in the south, not in the 1920s. but in the 1920s, the democratic party was a relatively small, racist, regional party that was centered on the south. it was fdr in 1936 that was able to expand that coalition to the cities, to bring in black voters. black voters before the 1930s were not democratic. those were the white racists. whether we like donald trump or

don't like donald trump or approve of everything he says, you have to give him credit for what he did on tuesday. >> absolutely. >> this was a red wave. >> yes, it was. >> it was a potential realignment, a movement that could last into the future. the other thing is, you combine that with his ambition to be the strongest president in american history, plus owning both houses of congress. how many times did we all say before tuesday there was probably at least the prospect of the democrats controlling the house if there was a trump victory. >> right. >> are democrats going to control the house in the next two years? doesn't look that way at this moment. so you've got trump owning the whole congress. i don't want to say owning the supreme court, but certainly a friendly, compliant supreme court. one-third of which he appointed. and with a plan to use the defense and justice department and other federal agencies to

create more presidential power in the white house than we have ever seen in two centuries. that's what we're facing. >> trump -- >> anyone who neglects this is ignoring reality. >> trump won resoundingly. he absolutely did. just to close out the conversation, i just wonder, you know, moving forward, because it felt like this was missing for this years, actually, and that is how to engage americans, especially, willie, young americans in civic duty. something even to national service might be too extreme, but something that brings young people together to work toward a common goal. i think young people are fractured and lonely as is, but if you bring people together toward a higher goal that is around the concept of freedom and democracy, that process, to participate in the process of being part of a democracy, understanding how fragile it is, i think would help a lot in the

future. i don't think people were thinking about that in this election, and it may be something we're thinking a lot about in the next couple years. >> yeah, it is important. we're about to see for the next four years what that potentially looks like. but i think to cite congressman ritchie torres again, people struggling to pay their rent, people who are frustrated that they can't get the things they want for their family in this country because they're too expensive or the opportunity feels like it is not there, don't have the luxury of worrying about a grand concept of democracy. >> right, no. >> that's a very -- >> it's fair. >> -- very real sentiment. >> totally agree. >> on the piece of young people, you know, they're on tiktok. whether it's teenagers or college kids or people in their 20s, donald trump is a superstar on that stuff. it's not about politics. it's not about policy. it's about a pop cultural movement. they think he is funny because they see a clip or can't believe he said the thing you're not

allowed to say. i'm not defending that. i'm just saying, that's what's happening online. to quote another democrat, well, he is independent, bernie sanders, senator yesterday said, quote, "it should come as no great surprise that a democratic party that abandoned working class people would find the working class has abandoned them. first, it was the white working class. now it is latino and black workers, as quell." that's bernie sanders talking about the party he caucuses with. >> presidential historian michael beschloss, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to talk about what donald trump's victory means for the ongoing legal cases against him. nbc's ken dilanian will break it down for us. plus, steve rattner is standing by with charts after exit polling showed the economy was a top concern for voters in this election. we're back in 90 seconds. a chewy order is en route for monkey, who loves to climb. so mom uses chewy to save 40% on gifts

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more human way to healthcare. as we've discussed, one of donald trump's victory, he'll likely never face any legal accountability for the criminal charges brought against him. nbc news learned trump's legal team is evaluating next steps to get his four criminal cases resolved before he takes office in january. at the same time, the justice department also is looking to wind down its two federal criminal cases against trump who has promised to fire jack smith, the special counsel looking into

these matters, immediately. let's get more detail from nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. good morning. what else are you hearing? >> good morning, willie. looking at the way jack smith conducted this case during the election period and even before that, i had the impression, a lot of people had the impression, he was going to try to sprint through the finish line, that he was going to continue litigating these cases, even though he knew they couldn't go to trial, right up to the moment he was fired or that a new attorney general ordered him to stand down. but that's not what's happening. what we learned yesterday is that jack smith is in talks with justice department officials about how to wind down these two federal criminal cases, even before donald trump takes office. they're doing that because the office of legal counsel has decided years ago, back in 2000, that a sitting president under doj policy can't be indicted and can't be prosecuted, because that would interfere with the operation of the presidency.

they're going to respect that, even before donald trump takes office. they're going to try to figure out how to get him out of these cases. there are a few wrinkle here. the classified documents case includes two other departments. it's been dismissed but being appealed now. the doj would like the appeals court to rule on that because they think judge cannon's decision was really bad law. it may continue without donald trump in the case. again, they are looking at ways to wind these cases down. they may be helped by the fact that donald trump's lawyers may file documents making the argument that, look, these prosecutions can't continue. he is the president-elect. then they may respond by dismissing these cases. the upshot here is that, look, there was no guarantee that donald trump was going to be convicted in the federal cases, but what it means is no jury of his peers will get to decide, based on the evidence, whether he was guilty. you guys were talking about

disinformation. there's so much disinformation about these cases, which are really very clear. there's tons of evidence supporting the charges in both of them. donald trump hoarded classified information. he allegedly obstructed justice. he ordered his subordinates to destroy videos. things that were arguably worse than what richard nixon did in the scandal that cost him the presidency. it looks like a jury is never going to hear and decide on that evidence, guys. >> this is part of the reason donald trump was running for president to begin with, and it looks like it is going to work out for him. let me ask you, ken, about the new york hush money case. there's talk that judge merchan may postpone or get rid of all together the sentencing, which is scheduled for a couple weeks from now in late november. where does that sit? >> it's a similar dynamic, except the discretion lies with the judge here. donald trump's attorneys are going to make the argument, they already have, that it is not appropriate for the judge to pass a sentence here with donald trump having been elected president and ready to take

office. it's really up to judge merchan. he can do a lot of different things. one of the things he could do is just simply put this case on hold until donald trump leaves office four years from now. that really -- thatunderscores there are questions about all these cases, including the federal cases. what happens to the evidence? what if donald trump gets into office and orders all the evidence to be destroyed? is there a chance that any of these cases could be resumed after donald trump leaves office, or does the statute of limitations last? lawyers are looking at all those questions. it is not entirely clear. again, in the new york case, he may not actually be sentenced after all. >> nbc's ken dilanian, thank you very much. according to nbc news exit polling, the economy was one of the top issues on the minds of voters as they cast their ballots on tuesday. joining us now with charts is former treasury official and

"morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. steve, you are looking at the metrics that fueled trump's win. let's start with the issue of income. what did the numbers tell you? >> of course, mika, this is at the heart of the matter for almost every american. what is my purchasing power? how much can i buy? what is happening to my standard of living? let me show you what actually did happen over the last really decade or so. if you go back to 2014, and these are all inflation-adjusted incomes. this is what you have after inflation. incomes rose fairly steadily, at about a rate of 1.3%, all the way through the trump administration. 1.3% may not sound like a big number, but that's after inflation. that's more money that you have to spend. ignore this, it was a covid distortion. during the biden administration, they went down for a while. that was the big burst of inflation we had. lately, they've been coming back. when all is said and done, they were basically flat for this period.

this bothers americans. they feel that it was even worse because they don't really see these numbers, this chart exactly, but they feel this. they don't quite feel this. they basically say, inflation is what is hurting them. in fact, incomes did not do as well in the biden administration than in the trump administration. we have to put that out there. >> steve, let's continue through the charts. talk about the disconnect between how well america's economy is doing. we hear it all the time, america is the envy of the world. every world leader would have loved to change, trade places with the united states. the u.s. dollar at an -- or moving toward an all-time high. the stock market at an all-time high. s&p at an all-time high. talk about the overall economy and then this segment of the economy that you say, for working class americans, that you think drove the election in donald trump's direction. >> sure, joe. so, yes, as we've talked about on this show, i think as

recently as last week, the american economy overall is doing fantastically well. the envy of the world. everything we've been talking about, growth, low unemployment, inflation coming down. but let's talk about how it affects the average american. one of the big things that i believe is lurking behind the fact that you have this huge right track/wrong track, upside down poll numbers we've all seen so much of, is the american dream and the question of whether the american dream is still there. let's look at this one chart. if you go back to 1940, 90% of young americans would, by the age of 35 -- 30, rather, make more money than their parents did. that has come steadily down. some is somewhat natural as we became more prosperous. but it continues to go down and down and down and down. now, you're down here at 50%. only 50% of american parents should believe or will find that their son or daughter is making as much or more than they're making at the age of 30.

that's not the american dream. the american dream is obviously each generation is supposed to do better than the one before. >> all right. then your final chart, steve, is about industrial wages falling behind. tell us about it. >> actually, mika, before we do that, can i do my middle chart? >> do your middle chart. which one? >> it's in the same theme of what happens. >> okay. >> all the income inequality we've had in this country over the last 20 years has led to some very different outcomes. if you're a white child born in the bottom 25th percentile, so we're back to the famous white working class, if you were born in 1978 versus being born in 1992, on an inflation-adjusted basis, a child born in 1992 had 6% less income after inflation, all that, at the age of 30 than -- at the age of 27, rather, than a child born back in 1978. so children are in this cohort

of white working class are making less and less and less each birth year they have. in contrast, for the people at the top, they're actually been making a bit more for each child born. so you have this situation where children of white working class parents are making less, each child, year after year, as they're born. completely the opposite at the top. let's also compare millenials to baby boomers. i'm a baby boomer. see what their different situation is. so if you talk about homeowner ship, baby boomers, 62% of baby boomers own a home. 49% of millenials own a home at the same age of 35. millenials, worst off. negative net worth, bankrupt, 14% of millenials are bankrupt by the age of 35. only 9% of boomers were. >> wow. >> if you look at wealth, millenials have, on average, 30%

less wealth than baby boomers had at the same point in their life. but the top 10% of millenials actually had more wealth than the baby boomers. you have huge wealth inequality among millenials. so these are all reasons why people feel that the american dream isn't what it was supposed to be. >> hmm, hmm, hmm. all right. now you can go to it. >> sorry, mika. thanks so much. >> industrial wages. >> right. so i just heard conversation about this, and you can see it right here very clearly. >> yeah. >> what's been happening, what's been happening is the relative incomes, who is making more relative to the average versus less of the average, has been shifting. it's been shifting in favor of the coast. we were talking a few minutes about the coast and the blue states. connecticut, massachusetts, new york. you can see their income relative to the national average, which was always a little higher, has now soared up here. the midwestern states, michigan,

ohio, wisconsin, you can see that their incomes, which were a little above but basically average, are now well below average. why is that happening? it's happened a lot because of what's happened to the wages of mostly white working class americans who work in factories. you can see a tool and dye maker back in 1980 had almost a 20% higher income than the national average. today, a tool and dye maker has 15% lower income than the national average. machinists, welders and sodders, their incomes all have gone down to well below the national average. a lot of this has to do with the decline in unionization, the affect of imports. these folks are making less money compared to other americans than they used to, so

average income in the states are also lower. >> that explains a lot. economic analyst steve rattner, thank you very much. coming up on "morning joe," the biden administration appears to be preparing for a potential surge in border crossings before donald trump returns to the white house. nbc's julia ainsley joins us with the exclusive report, next on "morning joe." it's time to feed the dogs real food in the right amount. a healthy weight can help dogs live a longer and happier life. the farmer's dog makes weight management easy with fresh food pre-portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. what do people want more of? with fresh food pre-portioned formore “oh yeah!”ds. more laughs. more hang outs. more “mmmmm, so good!” yeah, give us more of all of that little stuff that makes life so great. but if you're older or

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on day one, i'll launch the largest deportation program in american history. i will rescue every city and town that's been invaded and conquered. these town have been invaded, and these towns have been actually conquered. we're talking about the united states of america. we will put these vicious and bloodthirsty criminals in jail or, at a minimum, kick them the hell out of our country. >> that was now president-elect donald trump promising mass deportation, quote, on day one of his presidency. now, nbc news has exclusive, new reporting on a potential surge on the border before donald trump is sworn in. joining us now, homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. julia, what have you learned

about these promises and what else? >> mika, it is interesting. this planning meeting we're finding out about that secretary of homeland security, alejandro mayorkas had with his top advisors and heads of i.c.e. and border protection actually took place on monday afternoon. they said, look, if trump is elected, we might see a surge between when biden leaves office and trump comes in because there's so many immigrants who are going to think they have to come in now. so they started to look at bed space, how many people they could have at the border, and whether or not the policies they have in place now that can rapidly deport people who don't apply or qualify for asylum could stay in place. then looking at the reality we saw after tuesday night, they're starting to ramp up the discussions even more. right now, mika, they're not necessarily seeing a swarm of people coming, but they're paying attention to chat groups that we at nbc are watching, too. these are chat groups on whatsapp or smugglers' advertising services. i'll read some of the things they're saying on the chat groups. after the 21 of january, we'll

close the borders with extreme security. these are translated texts we have. we have until january to enter. my sister is still in mexico. i can't sleep thinking of her. you have until 10th of january. there's a chance. a lot of misinformation coming around these chat groups, sometimes from smugglers trying to tell migrants, now is the time to come. we saw a surge, as well, toward the end of the obama administration when there was this fear about trump shutting down the border. it very well could be, and there's already one caravan they're starting to monitor, that we see a sharp surge in migration just before trump takes office. >> julia, it is sam stein. i'm kind of curious about the inverse of this, too. people who are currently here, who now fear deportation right away. i'm wondering if you're picking up intel on how that is going in the states specifically. are they looking for resources? are immigration lawyers high in demand? are stake governors getting ready for potential clashes with

the incoming trump administration around who can and should be deported, and whether state resources should be used in the process? are we at that point yet, or is that a little of a ways off? >> i think we are at that point. so many of those conversations were happening in the weeks and months leading up to this election. i was just in north carolina the week before the election speaking with a family where they were having to decide, look, they have an undocumented father. the rest of the family is american citizens. are they going to, as a family, leave and go to mexico, a place their children know absolutely nothing about? also, you talk about the way state and local police are maneuvering right now. sheriff's departments say, sign me up. i want to work president trump administration to carry out mass deportations. places like north carolina, where i met that family, they have a 287-g program that compels law enforcement to work with i.c.e. sanctuary cities have refused to work with i.c.e. when it comes to the people who they are encountering because they think that hurts their relationships

with these communities where they so desperately need people to cooperate and to be witnesses to crimes. but we have known have reported on this before the election, that one of the tools the trump administration would want to use to compel those sanctuary cities to get on board and to hand over migrants and to help them with mass deportation is to withhold federal funding from justice department grants to sanctuary cities. that could be something of a fight that we see gearing up. it was already a legal battle in the first trump administration. i think a lot of fear in those communities. because, really, the numbers of illegal crossings at the border have gone way down. that could change in the months leading up to this trump administration as we're pointing out in the reporting. internally, there's a lot of fear right now. >> nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley, thank you very much for being on this morning, for your reporting. still ahead on "morning joe," north carolina governor elect, democrat josh stein will be our guest, following his win over his extremely controversial

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the fight for our freedom will take hard work. as i always say, we like hard work. hard work is good work. hard work can be joyful work. and the fight for our country is always worth it. it is always worth it.

to the young people who are watching, it is okay to feel sad and disappointed. but please know it is going to be okay. on the campaign, i would often say, when we fight, we win. but here's the thing, here's the thing, sometimes the fight takes a while. that doesn't mean we won't win. that doesn't mean we won't win. [ applause ] the important thing is don't ever give up. don't ever give up. don't ever stop trying to make the world a better place. you have power. you have power. and don't you ever listen when anyone tells you something is impossible because it has never been done before. >> vice president kamala harris and her concession speech yesterday in washington, d.c.

welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, november 7th. eugene robinson is still with us. joining the conversation, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle. national reporter for "the new york times," jeremy peters is here. and senior writer for "the dispatch," david drucker joins us. great group this hour as we start the second hour of "morning joe." we want to dive right into the numbers of this election. donald trump's victory was astonishing in its scope. he increased his vote share across the u.s., claiming the battleground states of north carolina, georgia, pennsylvania, and wisconsin, and bolstering his support among almost all social groups. trump increased his vote share in every state, apart from utah and washington. he also garnered the support of a remarkable one in three voters of color. most likely the best performance

of any republican presidential candidate since george w. bush in his 2004 re-election effort. trump picked up a small but significant share of younger voters, black voters, and hispanic voters, many of whom were feeling down about the economy. among voters under 30, slightly less than half went for trump, an improvement from his 2020 performance. and this year, latino men broke in his direction for the first time. biden won their support by 23 points in 2020. trump won by in 2024. joe, a lot to unpack here. >> so much to unpack right here. again, the numbers the democrats need to be looking at are the percentage. 32%. only 32% of americans identified themselves as democrats. i can't remember a number that

low in my lifetime. it really is a party disconnected from large, large swaths of working class americans, middle class americans. but i want to go back first to kamala harris' speech. we're going the postmortem right now, and we should do that. we need to figure out exactly what's happening. what's happening out in the country? what trump won the way he did. why he picked up in 48 of 50 states. why he's cobbled together this working class coalition across racial lines and racial barriers that we haven't seen a coalition like this in quite some time. i do, though, want to first talk about kamala harris' speech. i thought, once again, she hit all the marks. i thought it was a strong speech. you know, obviously, you see politicians, candidates that give these speeches in what has to be the most difficult of

times, and she gave the speech. >> yes. >> she conceded. unlike donald trump four years ago, she gave the speech. she conceded. that is what american patriots do. it is what american patriots have been doing for over 200 years now. god bless kamala harris for doing that. god bless the democrats who supported her for not storming capitols, for not talking about how the election was rigged, for not sending out disinformation. god bless them. that is the example that we have to set as a nation for all of the world. it didn't happen four years ago. for the first time since the civil war, it happened this year. god bless kamala harris and the party. that is so important. go ahead. >> if i could add, you know, she will -- we do need to talk about how abortion laws were voted for and against in different states.

the fight for abortion rights, health care rights will continue. she made it very clear the fight on many levels would continue. the fight for democracy would continue. the fight for freedom would continue. it was a very strong speech. it wasn't sort of a good-bye. i didn't see that at all. it reminded me a lot of what she said to me on stage in san francisco at a know your value event that she was the keynote for. she talked about being a first. she was talking about running for president back then. she predicted exactly what this experience would be. now, she's already a first. the first woman of color to serve as vice president of the united states. then again, running for president again, she talked back then about how ugly it would get. about how painful it would be.

this is part of it. losing is painful, especially when it seems like our lives are on the line. it is painful. she spoke of that to me back in 2018 so authentically in terms of understanding what the consequence is and what the realities are of being a first, of being a groundbreaker. >> right. >> it hurts. she's not going anywhere, joe. >> well, again, it's so important that you have politicians that pour their heart and their soul into the campaign, be republicans or democrats, and lose that campaign. it's got to be so difficult for them. mike barnicle, when she talked about the fight going on, it reminded me of ted kennedy's famous, momentous speech in 1980, that we red sox fans have painted on our hearts, printed on our hearts every fall. of course, kennedy said, for me a few hours ago, this campaign

came to an end. for all those who care have been our concern, the work goes on. the cause endures. >> the dream will never die. >> hope still lives, and the dream will never die. for people at home right now thinking that the end of history was two nights ago, it's not. because the battle goes on, be you a republican, an independent, or a democrat. that's what democracy has been for 240 years. that is the note that kamala harris sounded, that the fight goes on. the hope still lives. and the dream shall never die. >> you know, joe, in an odd way, kamala harris yesterday stood up and she was a symbol of democracy. in what she said and how she said it. she conceded, as mika pointed out. the irony is, january 20th, the incoming president-elect of the united states, donald j. trump, will at some point be asked to

put his hand on a bible. hope it is not a trump bible made in china. but his hand on a bible and swear allegiance to the constitution of the united states, something he had no respect for in january of 2021. it's going to be an odd picture, watching that. you know, on the other aspect of kamala harris' concession speech yesterday, in looking at the box scores of what happened in america on tuesday, you can't help but think that the democrats are in the position, same position -- we were speaking about this yesterday -- as the republicans were in 1964. their party was crushed, destroyed by lyndon johnson winning 49 states, i believe, in 1964. that's where the democrats are now. the roots of the democratic party established by franklin

delano roosevelt, iron workers, machinists, steel workers, they are now part of a party, and they're in that party, the republican party, because they're walking around, a lot of them, having rued the culture of the last several years as an enemy. they're walking around prior to voting for donald trump in record numbers, asking themselves, who is stealing our country from us? the democrats have to answer that question. >> they really do. willie, i want to read you -- mike talked about the '64 election. the republicans completely wiped out. again, just to let americans know, on both sides, and this was just as true as when barack obama won in 2008 and it looked like the democrats were wiped out. when barry goldwater got destroyed in '64 and republicans thought they were wiped out.

this is -- this is from before the storm, a great book by rick perlstein, about the rise of the reagan coalition. talked about how bad '64 was. the matter stood. the american right had been rendered a political footnote, perhaps for good. the morning after, the wise men weighed in. he has wrecked his party for a long time to come, reston wrote of goldwater, and is not likely to control the wreckage. ""the new yorker,"" this finished the goldwater school of political reaction. by every test we have, declared james mcgregor-burns, one of the most esteemed, he said this is a conservative won as was in the 19th century. he talks about how the republican party is destroyed

for a generation. then, of course, he takes you to ronald reagan in a strip mall parking lot in orange county, and something is happening on the ground. that happens for every party. there is always renewal. but as we said last hour, perhaps the democratic party should go to france for a couple of weeks and figure out what went wrong. because when you're a political party and only 32% of americans identify with you, that ain't the presidential candidate. that ain't the city councilman. that's a bigger structural problem with the democratic party and what it stands for with working class americans of all colors. >> maybe after they spend a little time in france, go to some of those counties and those towns that they're so shocked that they were hemorrhaged on tuesday night. that might be a better visit for all of them.

i'm also thinking, joe, as you tell that story, about karl rove after george bush won, talking about the permanent republican majority. this is going to go on forever. after barack obama won, it's a new era of democratic politics. then go to the shellacking, as president obama called it in the midterm elections. these things, as you've been saying for the last 24 hours, have an ebb and a flow. turnout, turnout was a problem. john lemire was talking in our last segment about 68 million votes for kamala harris in this election. joe biden got 81 million votes four years ago. turnout in democratic strongholds was a problem. according to "the new york times," harris' defeat is not explained in the embrace of mr. trump. after flagging voter enthusiasm, there were signs democrats failed to show up in key party strongholds. in wayne county, michigan, which includes detroit, unofficial results showed ms. harris had won 6% fewer votes than president biden had won four years ago.

turnout declined six percentage points in philadelphia county, pennsylvania, according to unofficial results. ms. harris' vote total slipped while mr. trump's increased. but going to mr. trump appeared to be a working class identify regardless of neighborhood. that is the thread, jeremy peters. prices were too high. they didn't believe that kamala harris was attached to joe biden, was going to help them improve they're lives, and they were willing to take a shot that donald trump will. >> right, willie. presidential elections, as we well know, are often a referendum on the incumbent. even though she wasn't the president, she was seen as an extension of the biden administration. voters overwhelmingly felt they would be giving biden a second term by electing her. you hit it on the head, the line from our story about the way that people -- the results of this election can't be explained solely by trump and an affinity

that voters have for him. that's not true. if you look at the exit polls, something like 40% of the people said they were voting against her. if you look at the ways -- when they were asked, is your vote primarily for your candidate or against the other guy, 40% said they were voting against her. that tells you, to joe's point, that something has broken down with the contract that voters in these urban areas -- and it wasn't just urban areas. it was rural. it was suburban. they feel like they don't have that anymore with the democratic party. that the democratic party isn't offering them the ticket to sa more comfortable life, a better life, where rent isn't soaring, where groceries aren't so high. one they feel like the country is headed in the right direction and politicians are looking out for their values. i think you can't have this conversation about 2024 without

first having a conversation about what happened in 2020 and the democratic primaries and how far away from the average voter democrats got. >> felt far away. it's an interesting question. the figure about voting against kamala harris. so do we have a sense -- is that because of her identification with the biden administration? is that because of who she is or who she has painted -- who she was painted to be? some combination, do you have any idea? >> i think it is all of the above. when you look at how broad the repudiation was of her and the democratic party, it extended into just about every county in the united states. i don't think there's one, single explanation for why people voted against her. you're talking about black, brown, young, some old. you know, people of all demographics, education levels, decided that they were going to support trump in greater

numbers. >> canvassers that just -- i hate them. i hate joe biden. i hate them. with no, you know -- where does that come from? >> her overall black support was like 86%, something like that. i mean, that's still very high. >> yeah. >> it's a little lower than normal. among latinos, way down. among the white working class, almost nonexistent. >> joe, jump in. >> i'm going to bring in david drucker. david, i keep looking over the map here, and i keep looking, of course, in the blue wall states. they were all competitive. they really were. you're talking two points, about, in pennsylvania, about 1.5 in michigan, one in wisconsin. that truly ended up being her only way forward. what i'm looking at, though, is the larger map, looking at the united states as a whole. looking at some of these states that -- like, for instance,

texas. texas is a state that democrats believed for two decades now they were going to catch up with the republicans on because of the changing demographics. this is a state last time, i don't know, maybe it was six points, seven points, but they were making progress in texas. it'd gone from 12 points to 9 points. i believe 6 points. donald trump wins texas by 14 points. despite the fact a lot of the suburbs of dallas actually turned from red to blue. you go to the state of florida. florida is a state that democrats were shocked by four years ago because joe biden lost by three, four points in the state of florida. florida is a state now that has been flooded by republicans from the northeast and has turned the brightest shade of red. 14-point victory for donald trump. from 3, 3.5 points for joe biden, which democrats saw as a disaster, to 14 points, 13, 14

points for kamala harris. you go up to ohio. ohio was a state that barack obama won. that was a democratic-leaning state in 2008. 2012, this is a state that keeps getting more red by the year. that is a 12-vote difference. you take florida, texas, ohio, three of the bigger states in america, and with texas and florida, two of the fastest-growing states in america. i love talking about how texas now has a larger gdp than russia. a lot of people that don't want to pay taxes in california, they go to texas. so you have all of these things happening. yes, in the three blue wall states, still competitive, but you can't call them the blue wall states anymore. they're more red than blue. forgive me, i just want to go one bit deeper, though, because

people will say, and they will be right, yet, the democrats held on, won the senate in wisconsin, won the senate race in michigan, and just may keep it close enough for a little while longer for casey to get even closer to mccormick. it looks like mccormick will win it for the republican party. but those states are still fairly ccompetitive. gallego in arizona may win that. i'm throwing a lot at you, but while there's still competitive races and other democratic candidates are doing well in places, i'm looking at states like texas. i'm looking at states like florida. i'm looking at states like ohio. that have gone deep, deep red and may never come back for democrats. >> look, joe, you know, victory and failure in politics is often overinterpreted, which is why we end up with these swings back and forth. >> right. >> but i will say, in some ways,

i think once we're done sifting through all the numbers, and it'll take some time, we're going to find out that this was rather uncomplicated. when voters' number one worry is they can't afford to eat and worry about their own public safety, meaning they're worried they're going to get physically harmed, they're going to vote for the party that they think is going to do a better job or they'll vote against the party that they think is responsible for not doing enough about these conditions. we had skyrocketing inflation during -- we have had during biden's presidency. even though inflation is down, costs have not yet caught up. they will, but they haven't. the biden administration made decisions via executive authority about how it wanted to handle the southern border with mexico that resulted in a lot of people being here illegally. people were very unsettled about it. that included more than just

conservative republicans. then, you know, an additional thing, which is something which has been happening over the past several years, but i think during the pandemic was really exacerbated, that on cultural issues that go beyond abortion rights and things of that nature, there are a lot of voters that are not necessarily republicans but have not been comfortable with how they believe the democratic party has approached things like trans rights and things like that. particularly as it relates to what goes on in public schools. you can agree or disagree with it, but it is a fact. i think it has helped republicans in the suburbs sort of stem their losses that occurred over and during trump's presidency. one final thing here. that is, for the last, what, 10, 15 years, the democratic party

was able to maintain a pretty broad coalition. first based around barack obama, a generational talent as a politician, and then around donald trump, a shocking president for many people that caused them to say, even if i, you know, agree with a lot of his policies, i can't get on board with this stuff. that was true especially for a while after january 6th. >> right. >> once donald trump became a more normal politician in their eyes because they got used to him, and once they had core concerns about going to the grocery store and affording the food they needed, were their neighborhoods safe. you can argue how the news may or may not have been presented fairly. doesn't matter. it's how they felt. i talked to voters about this across the swing states, and this is what i heard. they were willing to say, you know what? i'm going to be for that guy because when he was president, he may have acted like a jerk -- and they told me this. i don't like the way he behaved. i wouldn't behave that way, but he did a lot of normal republican things, and i had more money in my pocket, and my

neighborhood felt safer. >> you know, they got numbed even to the most outrageous things that he said regarding, you know, executions, using the army, the national guard against political opponents, shutting down cbs because he doesn't like the edit. you can talk to them about it. they'd be like, eh, he's not going to do that. he's just talking. it's part of the shtick. you can talk about that if you want, but i want to follow up on something you said. it's something democrats never talked about. i try to get them to talk about it, and they don't want to talk about it. you try to bring up, as we have on this program before, how democrats and independents, as well as republicans, feel about this wokism. they will roll their eyes and go, oh, what is woke? let me tell you, parents know what it is. it's their kids going to college or kids going to high school, not being able to talk without fear of being canceled or fear of being shunned or fear of being knocked out.

as far as the transgender ad that we keep talking about, that we've been talking about now for a month now, there's a reason the trump campaign ran it 30,000 times. because they knew, just as party leaders in wisconsin and across the midwest have said, that concerns people. it seems republicans are too extreme. i did want to get that in. but i want to ask you one other thing about illegal immigration. >> yup. >> we saw trump use it in '16, because you're here in '17, '18, '19, '20, '21, '22. we have leprosy, if you get close to them, your nose will fall off. voters didn't care in '18, elected democrats. voters didn't care in '20, elected joe biden. voters didn't care in '22, the red wave never materialized. i'm curious, from your reporting, why, finally, did

illegal immigration have such an impact in '24, where americans, not just white, not just republican americans, but americans across the political spectrum focused and said, okay, this is out of control. >> well, i think, one, it's a great question. i think one of the reasons has to do with the fact that so many of these migrants ended up in american cities. i think you can credit texas governor abbott with coming up with this idea, of saying, number one, and, actually, a few months ago, i talked to the governor about this. he was at a sort of town hall with local officials near the texas border. they were talking about the issue of how illegal immigration and these people who were gaming the asylum system as far as they were concerned, maybe they weren't, that they didn't have enough room and resources for them in their community. they didn't have them. one of the local officials was telling governor abbott, listen, i'll send these people to san antonio. it is a bigger city. let them deal with it.

it'll, you know, make it a little easier for us to handle this. governor abbott said, no, no, no. let me handle this. i'm going to send them to other places, chicago, new york, wherever these buses went. a lot of the -- we often talk about border states versus non-border states. when governor abbott, later governor desantis, started sending migrants or people here illegally to other american cities, it became a much more broader national problem. voters in these urban areas felt this problem. some of them even worried, and i've talked to voters about this, that these illegal immigrants were going to -- or people waiting for their asylum hearing, however you want to put it, they were going to eat up social services that should be for them, american citizens. these are people of color, not just white working class voters. so i think that changed a lot of the conversation. the other thing i will say, in 2020, whether you agree with how he did it or not, donald trump

basically solved the immigration issue as a matter of illegal border crossings and security via executive order. the problem was not permanently solved. there was no legislation. we still have a broken immigration system writ large. but the problem of illegal crossings had stopped. after three years of what biden decided to do after taking office, there's a reason why he finally shut it down this year. because it was causing a huge political problem for democrats that went beyond any blowback they might get from the democratic base. it was really ultimately too late. >> yeah, you know, willie, we saw this. i was shocked by the lifelong liberals that suddenly got concerned about illegal immigration, when illegal immigration landed on their doorstep. it's just the reality. we look at those numbers where donald trump did better in new york, areas around new york. that probably contributed a good

deal to it. i want to talk about economy for a second. few weeks ago, three weeks ago, somebody who was going to be voting for kamala harris came up to me and said, oh, my god, trump is going to win. i go, why is that? he goes, i just went to the grocery store. butter is over $3. i kind of laughed and said, i said, well, that's kind of productive, isn't it? i said it to myself. i smiled at him and said, good point. but actually, everything we're hearing after the election is -- >> just saying -- >> what's that? >> $7. >> what's that? butter is $7? >> yeah. >> framed in gold? >> butter. >> okay, anyway. >> depends where you go. 7 bucks. >> anyway, my point is this, willie, the rent is too damn high, and this guy was saying, the cost of butter is way damn too high. >> yeah. >> so i thought it was a bit

reductive, but it ended up being the point. if you look at the cost of groceries, look at the cost of gas, look at the cost of things compared to four years ago, it was a very simple answer for working class americans. things just cost too much. >> no question about it. $7 is an outrage for butter. i have to get you to my guy. we get the price down for you. >> depends where you go. >> at least in half. but that is, as we've been saying this morning -- >> where do you shop, dear? >> 7 bucks, gosh. >> well, it's my favorite grocery store. i'm not going to call them out. >> piggly wiggly, come on. >> joe goes to publix. but no, there's different prices, and that is an issue, too. some places are price gouging. >> you get the hand-churned, small batch. >> i'll make the butter, okay?

i think it's great symbolism, yeah. >> willie, anyway, the cost of groceries, way too high. it really did have an impact. this guy was right it a the end of the day. >> mike barnicle has been saying it for months and months, gas and groceries, gas and groceries. >> the lived economy. >> everything else is sort of background noise to all that. if you look inside the numbers, and as you said, joe, anecdotally, it doesn't matter what your race is, doesn't matter where you're from, what your gender is, but going to the grocery store and pulling up to the gas station can be crippling to too many people in this country. they voted for someone who they believe -- you could argue maybe it is not true the prices will come down, especially if trump puts in the tariffs he's promised and everything else we've discussed on this show, but that is immaterial at this point. fact of the matter, voters believed donald trump would bring down the prices and believed in his promise to do that. jeremy peters, you're writing about democrats here. there's been so much hand wringing the last 24, 48 hours

about how this happened, what needs to change. is this a party with the will and the ability to take that long look and make some kind of appeal to the voters who are abandoning them? >> i think in order to do that, they need to convince their consulting class that that's not something that is exclusionary or discriminatory or racist to do, to have these questions about why it is that the less focus on identity of race, of gender, of religion, why this is all -- why it's been framed through that lens for so long. voters of color are rejecting that. i mean, i remember reporting a story when kamala harris first got the nomination, where we went out and talked to a lot of black voters, a lot of la latino

voters. we asked one about harris' identify and she said, i can see she's black. i don't need her to tell me that. another one who realized that was kamala harris. she didn't talk about that. but i think what the republicans have been able to effectively do, because democrats spent so much time talking about identity, gender, and race, is now a lot of voters see kind of a caricature of democrats in harris, even if she, herself, didn't express a lot of the really kind of progressive ideas around identity. >> mika, because america wants to know, the cost for a pound of butter at -- 16 ounce package is $4.97 at publix. >> okay. >> and my friend who was saying that he got his for $3.50, i'll

have to ask him where he is getting that. that's a pretty good discount. >> i go to whole foods. organic, unsalted butter quarters, $9.49. >> whoa. >> come on! >> don't go to whole foods then. >> if we're playing the price -- >> go to piggly wiggly. that's ridiculous. go to publix, piggly wiggly. >> i have to take you to market basket in massachusetts. >> i won't ever go again. >> $4 off the cost of your groceries. >> come on. >> i got a guy. >> i'll win this round of the price is right. walmart, $2.54 for the package. >> that is so -- >> so my buddy may have been right. sounds like between where you go, willie, and the golden escalator that mika goes up to get her butter, it's somewhere in the middle. we'll say between $3.50 and $5, too much. >> okay. national reporter for "the new york times," jeremy peters. senior writer for "the

dispatch," david drucker, thank you, both, very much for coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," what donald trump's return to the white house means for the rest of the world. we'll get a live report from beijing on the concerns over another potential trump trade war with china. plus, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis says knee nato will likely survive trump, but at a cost. he'll join us with more on that. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back.

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beautiful live picture of the white house at 7:40 on this morning. adversaries and allies are reacting to the election results, including in china where president xi congratulated donald trump earlier today, while urging both nations to find, quote, the right way to get along. joining us live from beijing, international correspondent janis mackey frayer. she attended an election watch party this week. i understand you spoke with u.s. ambassador to china, nick burns. what else did you learn? >> reporter: well, the election was very closely watched here, willie, not only by china's government, which is now preparing for trump 2.0, but also among chinese people. 18 billion views on social media, not because they had a

stick or believed any candidate would be good for china. at the embassy watch event held, as the results were coming in, they organized it to make a point about democracy, which is portrayed here in social media and on state media as being in decline. that's a view among many in china's government, too. according to the u.s. ambassador nicholas burns, he described u.s./china relations as being strained at best. they're now bound to get worse if president-elect trump chooses to slap 60% tariffs on chinese goods. what isn't clear is how trump is going to approach issues like russia, north korea, and ukraine without beijing's help. ambassador burns confirms that the u.s. is talking to china about north korea and north korean troops, and whether china is going to use its influence with kim jong-un. here's what he had to say. >> we've talked with chinese leadership about that, and, obviously, we would hope that china would use its influence.

doesn't appear they are, but with the russian government to cease and desist. i don't think that's happening. it's unfortunate. >> reporter: trump has claimed throughout the campaign that he has good personal relations with xi jinping, and xi wouldn't dare to confront him because he knows trump is crazy. analysts and any advisors to the government here that i've spoken to say they're all concerned about trump's unpredictability, but they also don't mind that he is transactional in his politics. in a lot of ways, that's how china works, too. if you look at all the key foreign policy issues facing the u.s., like russia, north korea, ukraine, iran, middle east, taiwan, all of them, all of the dots connect through beijing. willie? >> xi and other leaders have worked with donald trump before. they know how to handle him. they know flattery gets them a long way. let me ask you about something you mentioned, which is tariffs. some people who support donald trump say, oh, he's just talking from the podium. he's not actually going to

impose these big tariffs. is there an expectation in beijing that he will? >> reporter: when xi jinping sent his congratulations, he took the message a step further. that was unusual. he urged the u.s. to properly manage differences, and he reminded trump of the importance of stable economic relations. china's economy is hurting right now, and the leadership here doesn't have a lot of wiggle room. exports have been propping up the chinese economy since covid. consumer spending is weak. businesses aren't investing either. a new wave of tariffs with one of its largest trading partners is no small matter for beijing, at a time when they're having trade headwinds with europe, as well. which is where elon muskesting picture. musk has deep business interests here and a tight relationship with chinese officials. tesla's giga factory changed the company's trajectory, using

chinese supply chains and chinese workers. musk is treated like a world leader when he visits here. chinese officials could se musk as a potential buffer if he takes an advisory role with trump. china may have more than musk's ear, considering what he has at stake here. an editorial reminded musk not to bite the hand that feeds him. trump will have china hawks on his trade team, but we can expect elon musk will be talking about china, too, and with a very different tone. >> you can bet elon musk will have a large role in the administration. he spent the night at mar-a-lago a couple nights ago. janis mackey frayer live from beijing, thank you, as always. joining us in studio, richard engel and supreme allied commander of nato, four star navy admiral james stavridis. as a new opinion piece for "bloomberg" titled, "nato will likely survive trump but at a

cost." good morning. great to have you both here. admiral, let's start with the piece you wrote for "bloomberg." concern among nato countries. we heard president macron saying internally to other western european and eastern european countries, we have to start to look out for ourselves. we can't count on the united states for the security umbrella we've had for generations now. where do you see this headed under a second trump administration? >> on a scale that runs from the last days of nato to, hey, the alliance is going to be the centerpiece of foreign policy, i think it'll actually be somewhere in the middle, willie. what i mean by that is, team trump is going to put pressure on the europeans to increase their defense spending, they should. team trump is also going to demand more support for ukraine from the europeans. even though the europeans have already given more, i think team trump would like to get out of the business of dolling out money to ukraine. those are going to be the pressure points in the conversation.

what i hope is that the trump administration will see the value of nato. it's got a big defense budget, second largest in the world. u.s. defense budget largest. collective european is the second largest. also, these are the allies who have stood with us, democracy, liberty, freedom. third and finally, we are going to need nato allies, not only in europe against russia, but if we want to take down the houthis in the red sea. what about facing china in the south china sea? we need allies before this is all over. i'm hoping that value proposition comes through. let's face it, donald trump has been quite skeptical of nato. >> yeah, to say the least. he threatened to pull the united states out of nato. the difference, perhaps, this time is he'll have people around him who agree with that sentiment. the guardrails will be gone. richard, ukraine came up here. you've covered that war very

closely for the last couple of years. what is the mood in kyiv over the last 36 hours? >> dire, bad, depressed. there's a realization that the war as they've known it has changed now. i think the war we've seen for the last three years, which has been in different phases, is now entering a brand-new phase. in the first phase of the war, there was this shock that ukraine was able to defend itself, that zelenskyy held, that kyiv held, and then there was the counteroffensive. the last year and a half, two years really, it's been this deadlock, trench warfare along the east, along the south, with minor gains and losses on each side. that war has been painful. it's been exhausting. it's causing a lot of casualties on both sides. i've seen them more on the ukrainian side. and is that phase over? is ukraine now going to be forced to sign some sort of peace deal, which ukraine hasn't

wanted to do right now because it'd be on unfavorable terms. it'd mean giving up roughly 20% of the country to vladimir putin. that is something that zelenskyy doesn't want to do. he's said repeatedly he doesn't want to do. he wants to win. for the last several years, he's been told by president biden, you're going to win. we're all with you. we will be with you until the bitter end. victory is what you're going to get. instead now, i think the realization is settling in. they're not going to get victory. they're going to get an end to the war at some stage in which they have to give up 20%. but then the ukrainians are asking, okay, we give up 20%. what's our guarantee that russia isn't going to come back in the next day? they are willing to give up territory if they have nato, if they have a huge amount of defensive weapons, if they can defend themselves. otherwise, they say, we've just given up 20%, and then a week later, a year later, two years

later, vladimir putin comes back and takes another 20%. 30% or more. >> the biden administration will try to rush as much equipment as they can. >> front loading. >> we know trump and his now vice president elect vance, real skeptics about supplying ukraine with any aid at all. let's go to the middle east. it's a dominant issue during this campaign. trump spoke to prime minister netanyahu. >> the whole family has good relationships. >> basically saying to netanyahu, do whatever you want, giving him a green light. how will a trump administration impacts the middle east? >> we have to look at what prime minister netanyahu has clearly said he wants to do. he wants to take >> we have to look at what prime minister netanyahu has clearly said he wants to do. he wants to take the abraham

accords. that was part of the piece of trump's policy. jared kushner was spearheading it, forming this alliance between israel and several arab nations. they want to build on that and expand the abraham accords potentially to include saudi arabia, but netanyahu has also said he wants to take the abraham accords and turn it into the abraham military alliance against iran. he's already doing that to a degree in that he's taken -- he's launched a war against hamas in gaza. he's launched a war against hezbollah in lebanon. the next logical step would be more intense military text, potentially regime change-level action against iran, and he said that he wants to do this. he gave a speech in front of congress and got standing ovations on every line from the maga crowd saying we need to have a military alliance. we need to make this abraham accord alliance against iran. if he pursues that, he believes

that now with a president trump, he can do that. so i would expect some sort of military action, much more pressure sachs-wise, diplomatic-wise on iran under netanyahu with trump's blessings and support. >> admiral, hopscotch in the globe. janice's report from beijing was kind of interesting. >> yeah. >> and we're looking at the most populous nation on earth, one of the most powerful nations on earth. talk about the south china sea and the shipping lanes. >> sure. >> all the way from the coast of china down to vietnam and the old cameroon bay, american base down there. what is happening down there when they're building aggressively, military islands in the middle of the south china sea? what is happening in the relationship between china and the united states with regard to that? >> yeah. what a great question, and this is really the big casino at the end of the game here. the middle east is important. what happens in ukraine and

russia, i think we will end up negotiating. it's that u.s./china dynamic i'm watching most closely here. to put everyone on the same sheet of music, but the south china see is this vast body of water. it's half the size of the united states, and it is where 40% of the world's shipping crosses. it's full of oil, gas, fisheries, and china claims it in its entirety, and your point, they're building artificial islands all around. in the navy, we don't call those artificial islands. we call them unsinkable aircraft carriers because that's how china would use them. so there is a real tension building and in the middle of it, is one of our treaty allies that we don't talk about a lot. that's the philippines. we have the same security guarantees for the philippines that we do with every member of nato, and the philippines and china are in a real dustup in the center of the south china

sea about contested waters. so i think it would be a very smart play for the trump administration to put initial focus, and by the way, if you start with 60% tariffs, you are going to create additional fire in that dynamic. quite dangerous. another good reason that we need cool heads as we head into this relationship with china. >> admiral, quickly before we go, i just want to circle back to ukraine. >> sure. >> do you believe this as richard suggests, will end in some kind of a deal? >> yeah. >> and is it a deal that ultimately ukraine should take? >> i think it will end in a deal and whether team trump comes in and says, we're cutting all aid, go to the bargaining table right now, or they actually give the ukrainians some runway will matter, willie, but i think the deal probably looks -- i agree with richard. give up that 20% chunk, and don't forget that's a part of

ukraine. that's got a lot of russian ethnic support in it already. it's been a battlefield for 2 1/2 years. the other 80% is what putin would like to get. it's what we can't give him. if the ukrainians could get a clear path to nato membership, i would say take the deal. >> they would have to demand that. if they're giving up a fifth of their country to the russians. >> there's a historical precedent here, and it's finland that was invaded by russia. they gave up 10% of their land. they maintained their independence. where is finland today? just joined nato. >> retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis, and richard engel, great conversation, guys. thanks for being here. good to see you. still ahead, north carolina voters delivered a split decision on tuesday choosing republican donald trump for president and a democrat for governor. the state's governor-elect josh stein, who won overwhelmingly, will be our guest.

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live picture of the united states capitol just before 8:00 in the mornin in washington. control of the house of representatives still hanging in the balance this morning. 19 key races have yet to be called. though republicans do now appear poised to keep their majority. as it stands, democrats have flipped two seats bringing their total to 187 while republicans have flipped six seats for a total of 209 seats altogether. both parties vying to reach the 218 needed to control the house. meanwhile, four senate races remain uncalled this morning. republicans have regained control of the upper chamber with three pickups this week as we told you, but the race in nevada, still not called and as of this morning, democratic senator jackie rosen leading her republican challenge sam brown by a little less than 13,000

votes with 93% of the vote in. in arizona, democratic congressman rueben gallego is leading kari lake. 70% of the vote in. still counting in arizona. the democratic senator, bob casey of pennsylvania the trailing his republican opponent, dave mccormick by a little more than 30,000 votes with 97% of the vote in. and in maine, independent senator angus king is leading his challengers. expected to take that seat. as you can see for yourself there. up next, we'll have more of vice president kamala harris' concession speech and her message to supporters. plus, we'll go through the coalition that elected donald trump overwhelmingly to a second presidential term. "morning joe" is back in 90 seconds. idential term. "morning joe" is back in 90 seconds surance with liberty mutual. customize and sa—

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my heart is full today, full of gratitude for the trust you have placed in me, full of love for our country, and full of resolve. the outcome of this election is not what we wanted, not what we fought for, not what we voted for, but hear me when i say -- hear me when i say the light of

america's promise will always burn bright. as long as we never give up, and as long as we keep fighting. now i know folks are feeling and experiencing a range of emotions right now. i get it, but we must accept the results of this election. a fundamental principle of american democracy is that when we lose an election, we accept the results. that principle, as much as any other, distinguishes democracy from monarchy or tyranny, and anyone who seeks the public trust must honor it. >> that was part of yesterday's concession speech from vice president kamala harris in washington, d.c. as she promised to keep fighting

for democracy, equal rights, and the rule of law. ahead of that speech, vice president harris called president-elect trump to congratulate him. accord a senior harris aide, the vice president discussed the importance of a peaceful transfer of power, and being a president for all americans. the trump campaign also put out a statement reading in part, president trump acknowledged vice president harris on her strength, professionalism, and tenacity throughout the campaign, and both leaders agreed on the importance of unifying the country. president biden also spoke with president-elect trump over the phone yesterday to congratulate him and to express his commitment to a smooth transition of power. biden also invited trump to meet him at the white house though no date has been set. biden will address the nation this morning at 11:00 a.m. regarding the election results.

and good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's only thursday, november 7th, joe. >> i thought yesterday was friday. right? i thought it was the end of the week. yeah. well, no. it was a great -- i thought it was a great speech by kamala harris. i thought she obviously, for good reasons, is still -- still sort of in that campaign mode and obviously though she, again -- i think she hit the marks throughout the campaign, and did extremely well. i think she did far better than most people expected her to do at the beginning of that very short and abbreviated campaign. it was such an extraordinarily short and abbreviated campaign, and in the states, you know, you look at their -- there are a lot of things to look at across the map that you see states like texas and florida and ohio.

those -- those have just gone so deeply red compared to even where they were four years ago when joe biden was getting closer, certainly in texas and within three or four in florida, but those states are deep, deep red. ohio, a deep, deep red. pennsylvania is -- party registration has gotten far more republican over the next -- over the last several years. the races were still close though, willie, in wisconsin. still close in michigan. pennsylvania was more like 2 percentage points. we had democrats winning wisconsin and detroit -- and michigan yesterday. pennsylvania still up in the air right now, but that's looking like that's going to go to dave mccormick, but it's still very close, but there were such transformational changes in this race yesterday, and, you know,

jonathan asked at the end of his show, where should democrats go from here? i would suggest france for a couple of weeks and think it over. 32% of americans -- only 32% of americans who voted identified themselves as democrats. donald trump won -- if i'm not mistaken, i think i saw this in the newsletter. 1 of 3 people of color, and donald trump has put together working class coalition across racial lines. >> yeah. >> that nobody has done in this country in over 50 years, and so yes. people need to look back at the campaign and they need -- certainly should feel free to call out donald trump for all the things that he said that were shocking and deeply offensive, but if you're a democrat right now and think

that's going to get you elected four years from now, it didn't get you elected a couple of nights ago. so it's -- again, it's time for the democrats to look in the mirror and figure out exactly what went wrong, and i think, willie, you and i have been talking about it over the last four years or so. it shouldn't be really that hard for them to figure out exactly where they went wrong. we'll just see if they're self-aware enough to do it. >> yeah. i mean, this is a massive structural problem now for the democratic party. so there's been all this sort of monday morning quarterbacking about the vice presidential choice and all these things that we traditionally hear. that would not have made a difference. let's be clear about that, about the shortened campaign. that's difficult. kamala harris didn't have time to introduce herself in a time that say, barack obama did, but the fact of the matter is that donald trump just wiped out the democratic party. he sometimes is a political opponent as you know, joe. you just have to tip your cap to the other side not for rhetoric, not for the behavior, but for

the way he won. the people he brought into his party, the people who felt they didn't have a home. latino men, some young black men as well. even women, young people. he did much better with young people than most people expected, and that is a big shift that the democratic party has to reckon with, and at this moment, i'm not sure what the way back is for democrats when you've lost, been wiped out. donald trump did better in 48 of the 50 states than he did last time around despite all the -- >> yep. >> everything that was coming at him. so democrats need to sit and think about what happened. the question will be, do they have the will to change? do they have a message that will be appealing to those people that donald trump now brought into his coalition? >> i don't -- again, it -- i hate monday morning quarterbacking here. i really do, and i don't want this to be taken as a blanket

criticism for the people that were running kamala harris' campaign because they were great. jen o'malley dylan, just the best on the ground that there is. she was facing though -- there was a red wave this year. the press got it wrong and the pollsters got it wrong too. that wave was somewhere coming off of africa and moving across the atlantic and coming. it just took it two years more to get here, but man, it crashed on-shore two nights ago, but jonathan lemire, there was some reluctance to some republicans to talk about the things that were concerning americans that really mattered this year. illegal immigration, the mass border crossings, yes, they put a bill out there, and yes, that was good, but there wasn't anything more definitive on it than that. that was something that

concerned hispanic voters. it's something that concerned black voters. that concerned all voters. we will talk again. here is -- we have been talking about the transgender thing that we have been talking about it ran. over $30 million. we kept talking about it saying this is going to be a problem in the three states that you need. this "financial times" article, they don't understand my life. the trump campaign spent millions of dollars on political ads focusing on transgender issues in the final stretch of the race. kamala is for they/them, one said. trump is for you. quote, the ads of transgender stuff were really unsettling to the people, said deb dacow, chair of the democratic party, in a republican stronghold in the milwaukee suburbs that broke for trump. i mean, you don't have to be a

republican. though i was a republican. you don't have to be a conservative though i was a conservative, to understand that seeing ad after ad after ad in nfl football games, saying that taxpayers were going to be funding transgender surgeries in -- for inmates. that's not something that's going to play well in wisconsin, in michigan, in pennsylvania, among men. and yet they just didn't respond to it because they were afraid to respond to it because it might offend some small subset of their base, and the thing is nobody's saying they're to be anything but kind to all americans. this just had to do with responding to the ad and saying, hey. wait a second. that was donald trump's policy that they're attacking, but they wouldn't even do that because again, they're afraid to offend. always afraid to offend. always afraid to offend on border security.

always afraid to offend on so many other issues. they're at 32%, and they have lost working class america. the question is how long until they understand that -- that this isn't just about tax cuts? this isn't just about economics. this is about cultural markers that matter greatly in these people's lives. >> this is certainly -- a lot of second guessing among democrats that they should have had a much more robust response to that particular argument. there's a lot of finger pointing in the party right now, but let's be clear. president biden's, you know, legislative record, robust, but even in realtime, his west wing acknowledged they were slow to address two issues, immigration and inflation, and they feel they made progress on both, but that was a lasting impression made on voters and republicans hammered it home. there's also a similarity here to what we saw in 2016, the first time donald trump was re-elected where he appealed to

his working class voters who felt like then it was the recovery from the great recession. this time around, the recovery from the pandemic and they thought it was uneven, unfair. the elites continued to do well, but the working class suffered and we saw it at the ballot box here. not only did trump continue to do very well with white working class voters, he made real inroads with latino voters and discussed it like yesterday, and also made modest gains in the suburbs. it was across the board. it wasn't just 48 out of 50 states that he did well as willie mentioned. he improved his marks in more than 90% of the nation's counties. this was across the board, the victory here for republicans and for mika, for democrats, kamala harris received about 14 million fewer votes than joe biden did four years ago. >> yeah. >> that is a staggering number, and they have a lot of figuring out to do, and that process begins right now, to how to rebuild a coalition that seems

to be badly fractured. >> and i think another part of this, just to not make it exactly everything the democrats did was wrong. i think there was a ton of disinformation out there. i've heard a segment at the end of your show how she needed to separate herself more as joe biden. because he was so unpopular. why was he so unpopular? was his presidency a failure? can i have an answer on that? was his presidency a failure? >> no, it was not a failfailure. he was a successful president in my opinion. >> right. >> look. there are -- there will be a whole lot of lessons, i think for the democratic party to learn from this election. i think they might take joe's advice and go into the trip to france phase for the next couple of weeks, and then really go into the numbers. why did so many fewer people bother to vote this time?

not just for harris, but the overall vote totals are lower, and a lot of people didn't -- just didn't show up. that surprised me. why was that? >> i spoke to people who were canvassing, and some people i knew really well, and they were stunned at how disinformed people were that they were talking to. they were just stunned at what they were saying because it was just beyond even close to the truth. >> yeah. >> that's a big part of this. it's not all of it, and joe, i know we need to get to our other guests, but i just think it's -- if we have to -- obviously there's a lot of questions that's going to be asked and looked into, and really legitimate reasons to look within for sure. at the same time, the landscape is a sea of voices and websites and places to go for information that is simply not true, and then is backed up again and again and again and again until it becomes narrative.

>> you fight on the battlefield that is before you. >> mm-hmm. >> and so if there is disinformation on the battlefield that is before you, you can run off of that battlefield screeching and crying with your arms thrown up in the air, or you can figure out how do we engage in that battlefield and win? it's that simple. and i understand there is a ton of disinformation out there, and it is sickening. i understand that. i also understand the disinformation will only be worse four years from now. so the question is, what will democrats or what will independents or what will republicans who don't support an authoritarian version -- >> starting now. >> -- of government, what are they going to right now instead of complaining? complaining doesn't change this. >> totally agree. >> we showed the numbers. put the numbers up with the number of people who voted again if you would, t.j. right now, donald trump sitting at 72 million. i suppose that number will go up as more votes come in from

california, but i guess he's probably not going to reach his vote total from last time which was 77 million. he had 77 million votes last year and still lost which means a ton of people, tens, you know, over 10 million people stayed home who voted for the democrat last time. over 15 million people stayed home who voted for the democrat last time and gene reports out of detroit, reports out of philadelphia, that the numbers for black voters were way down, and when we talked to reverend al a week before, he talked about when he was canvassing in detroit, there just wasn't the excitement among black voters for this democratic ticket. >> yeah. there wasn't, and so why was that? and the answer has to be that they -- that democrats were not getting their message through. they certainly didn't get through such an urgency to vote,

but -- but they and, you know, if you don't get the votes, you're not giving people a reason to come vote for you, and so that's -- the party's got a lot to figure out. i mean, what's going to be -- when parties get defeated, and this is, you know, this is far from the biggest margin in, you know, this isn't like reagan in '84 or anything like that, but as john lemire said, 90% of counties, you know, trending in what for democrats is the wrong direction. trending in the republican direction. so when that happens, you need to -- you need to really look at those numbers, look at yourself and figure out what -- what affirmative case you're going to make to people that you're going to make their lives better, and that -- and that you understand them, and that you're with them,

and that's going to -- that process, i think, probably has already started. it should have and will continue, but parties in the situation do tend to figure it out eventually, and, you know, that's where bill clinton came from after a democratic debacle. so we will -- we will see this evolution of the democratic party over the next couple of years. coming up, a conversation with north carolina's governor-elect. how democrat josh stein split the ticket in a state where donald trump cruised to victory. that discussion is straight ahead on "morning joe." that discussion is straight ahead on "morning joe. better pr? have you checked singlecare? whenever my customers ask how to get a better price on their meds, i always tell them about singlecare. it's a free app. accepted at major pharmacies nationwide. before i pick up my prescription at the pharmacy, i always check the singlecare price. it's quick, easy, and totally free to use. singlecare can literally

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♪♪ let's bring into the conversation managing editor of "the bullwork," sam stein. just to pick up and continue this conversation, i was thinking back yesterday to what at the time was viewed as a curious visit by donald trump to the south bronx to have a rally back in may, and a lot of people who didn't get it said, what's he doing there? well, it's clear what he was doing. he was sending the message to people there to latino americans, to black americans, that i see you. i hear you. i care about you.

i'm here. i may not win. i probably won't win this district. i won't win new york city. i won't new york state, but i'm taking the time to let you know that i see that, and democratic congressman richie torres who represents the south bronx, a democrat, is very critical this morning and over the last couple of days of the democratic party, of the way that they ignored the concerns of latino americans and yes, there may be disinformation out there. of course, there is, but what wasn't disinformation was the fact that groceries and rent and all the things that people need to live their lives every day were still far too high for americans of every race. >> yeah. i mean, there's a couple of factors at play here. obviously when, you know, two-thirds, three-fourths of the country think that the country is on the wrong track, that's not great for the incumbency. obviously, you know, people felt inflation a lot harder than they felt the rise in their own wages, but on the thing you said about the trip to the bronx and on the point joe made about fighting on the battlefield

presented, i think one of the things that democrats specifically, but we generally should recognize is that trump is very good at sending cultural signals. that trip to the bronx was really about winning the bronx, and to a degree, it was about signaling to those people, hey. i care about you. it was also about creating these types of moments that everyone would consume. it's why he went to coachella. it's why he went to madison square garden, as problematic as that rally was. it's why he worked a shift at mcdonald's. it's why he jumped in a garbage truck and nearly face planted when he couldn't open the door. it's because they wanted to create these moments that everyone would consume on the internet, and frankly democrats are not very good at that type of organic content creation. it's notable that the harris campaign, which admittedly was short run, a lot of what they were doing was bringing creators to their events and the creators could create the content.

they weren't putting harris in a position where she was creating the content for the creators, and so that was a main distinction, and joe is absolutely right. i mean, you have to fight on the battlefield where it's presented. in these post-mortems, we're just a day in, but virtually every democrat i've talked to has said we cannot win if our people are not on these podcasts, these bro podcasts, these right-wing youtube shows, and fox news, frankly. >> right. >> because if all the country is going to get are a good chunk of the country is going to get their information from those people. if those outlets are going to caricature our candidates, we have to combat that caricaturization. the last point and i'll stop talking after that. one of the moments in this campaign actually took place in the wake of the hurricanes in north carolina. when there was rampant disinformation, much of it pushed by elon musk, and one of the ways in which that information -- disinformation was stopped was when pete buttigieg decided to get on the

phone with elon musk, direct engagement, and suddenly elon musk was, like, i talked to pete buttigieg. this is actually not happening. we got it fixed, and some of it stopped. i think that's proof positive that you do actually have to engage directly with adversarial sources or else what they say about it, you will take the vote in public. >> yeah, and when you do that, you have to have the answers that make sense to most americans. so were there too many border crossings? yeah, there were way too many. there were way too many. we didn't understand. we let it get out. we let it get out of control because we didn't understand just how depressed the situation was, in central america, and we didn't understand there were people going over there. we were caught off guard, and so we turned it around and after we turned it around, that's when we put this -- this border security bill out there that border agents themselves support.

took us a couple of years to figure it out, and that was terrible, but it will never happen again. we learn from our mistake and say that, and then, you know, if you're going to go on fox, are they going to ask you about the 30,000 ads on transgender surgeries for convicts that taxpayers have to pay for? go, no. i oppose that. i said i support it in '19. that was donald trump's plan. i said it. that was actually his policy. i think we were both wrong. we were both wrong and going parted, blah blah blah blah blah. whatever issue you want to talk about, you have to be able to say it and be willing to stand up to the extremes in your party that are pushing an agenda that put you according to reverend al sharpton, outside the mainstream of 80% of people not only in your party, but 95% of people across america. >> let me just quickly say i 100% agree with that, and it's the thing that democrats and

that i have been talking to in the past 24 hours, they say their candidates are too worried about misstating something or offending someone, or getting it wrong, and getting it to turn into some viral moment, when in reality, i think trump -- and to a degree, joe biden actually, have proven that if you create a familiarity with the public, even if you screw up -- >> yes. >> -- or say something offensive, or put your foot in your mouth, the public if they become familiar with you, will forgive you for that, and they'll move on, and oftentimes, there are these candidates that are too cautious, too scared of offending, and therefore they restrict types of forms and outlets in which they go. coming up, the wall street opens the day with a record high. andrew ross sorkin will preview the rate cut from the federal reserve all when "morning joe" comes right back. reserve all when "morning joe" comes right back i used to leak urine when i coughed, laughed or exercised.

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♪♪ as we've discussed, one of the political realities of donald trump's election victory is that he likely will never face any legal accountability for the criminal charges brought against him. nbc news has learned trump's legal team has now evaluated the next steps to get his criminal cases resolved before he takes office in january. at the same time, the justice department also is looking to wind down its two federal criminal cases against trump who has promised to fire jack smith, the special counsel looking into these matters immediately. let's get more detail now from nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. ken, good morning. what else are you hearing? >> reporter: good morning, willie. well, looking at the way jack smith conducted this case during the election period and even before that, i had the

impression -- a lot of people had the impression that he was going to try to sprint through the finish line here, that he was going to continue litigating these cases even though he knew they couldn't go to trial, right up until the moment he was fired or the new attorney general ordered him to stand down, but that's not what's happening. what we learned yesterday is that jack smith is in talks about how to wind down these two federal criminal cases even before donald trump takes office, and they're doing that because the office of legal counsel has decided years ago, and back in 2000 that a sitting president under doj policy can't be indicted, and can't be prosecuted because that would interfere with the operation of the presidency, and so they're going to respect that even before donald trump takes office. they're going to try to figure out how to get him out of these cases. there are a few wrinkles here. obviously the classified documents case includes two other defendants and it's been

dismissed b and the doj would like to appeals rule to work because they think the decision was bad law. it says they can't appoint a special counsel. so that appeal may continue without donald trump in the case, but again, they are looking at ways to wind these cases down, and they may be helped by the fact that donald trump's lawyers may file documents making the argument that look, these prosecutions can't continue. he's the president-elect, and they may respond by dismissing these cases, and the upshot here is that look. there was no guarantee that donald trump was going to be convicted in either of these federal cases, but what it means is that no jury of his peers will get to decide based on the evidence whether he was guilty, and you guys were just talking about disinformation. there's so much disinformation about these cases, which are really very clear, and there's tons of evidence supporting the charges in both of them, that donald trump hoarded classified information, that he allegedly obstructed evidence, and things

that were arguably worse than what richard nixon did in the scandal that cost him the presidency, but it looks like a jury is never going to hear and decide on that evidence, guys. >> and this is part of the reason donald trump was running for president to begin with, and it looks like it's going to work out for him. let me ask you, ken, about the new york hush money case. there's talk that judge merchan may now postpone or get rid of altogether, the sentencing which is scheduled for just a couple of weeks from now in late november. where does that sit? >> reporter: it's a similar dynamic, except the discretion really lies with the judge here. donald trump's attorneys are going to make the argument they already have, that it's not appropriate for the judge to pass a sentence here with donald trump having been elected president and ready to take office, and it's really up to judge merchan. he can do a lot of different things. he can -- but one of the things he could do is just simply put this case on hold until donald trump leaves office four years from now, and that really -- that potentiality underscore that is there are a lot of

questions really about all these cases, including the federal cases which is for example, what happens to the evidence. what if donald trump gets into office and orders all the evidence to be destroyed? and is there a chance that any of these cases could be resumed after donald trump leaves office, or does the statute of limitations lapse? lawyers are look at this, and it's not clear, but in the new york case, he may not be sentenced after all- coming up, steve rattner is charting results of the key issues that drove voters to the ballot box. he joins us from the southwest wall when "morning joe" comes right back. he southwest wall when "morning joe" comes right back liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be

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according to nbc news exit polling, the economy was one of the top issues on the minds of

voters as they cast their ballots on tuesday. joining us now with charts is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner, and steve, you are looking at the metrics that fueled trump's win. let's start with the issue of income. what did the numbers tell you? >> of course, mika. this is at the heart of the matter for almost every american. what is my purchasing power? how much can i buy? what's happening to my standard of living? let me show you what did happen over the last really decade or so. but if you go back to 2014, and these are all inflation adjusted incomes. this is what you have after inflation. incomes rose fairly steady at about a rate of 1.3% all the way through the trump administration. at 1.3% may not sound like a big number, but that's after inflation. that's more money that you have to spend. ignore this. this was a distortion. during the biden administration, you can see that they actually went down for a while. that was that big boost of

inflation that we had, and then lately they have been coming back, and all of a sudden, they were flat for this period. this bothers americans and they feel it was even worse because they don't really see these numbers, this chart exactly, but they feel this, and they don't quite feel this, and they basically say, inflation is hurting, and incomes did not do as well in the biden administration as the trump administration. you just have to put that out there. >> so steve, let's continue through the charts. so talk about the disconnect between how well americans' economy is doing. we hear it, all the time, envy of the world. every world leader says they would love to trade places with the united states, the u.s. dollar, and moving toward an all-time high. the stock market at an all-time high, s&p at an all-time high. talk about the overall economy and then this segment of the economy that you say for working

class americans that you think drove the election in donald trump's direction. >> sure, joe. so yes. as we've talked about on this show, as recently as last week, the american economy is doing fantastically well. envy of the world, everything we have been talking about, growth, low unemployment, and inflation coming down, but let's talk about how it affects the average american. one of the big things that i believe is lurking behind the fact that you have this huge right track/wrong track, upside poll numbers that we've all seen so much of, is the american dream, and question of whether the american dream is still there. so let's just look at this one chart. if you go back to 1940, 90% of young americans by the age of 30 make more money than their parents did. that has come steadily down. some of that is somewhat natural as we became more prosperous, but it continues to go down and down and down. and down, and now you're down here at 50%. now only 50% of american parents

should believe or will find that their son or daughter is making as much or more as they're making at the age of 30. that's not the american dream. the american dream is obviously each generation is supposed to do better than the one before. >> all right. and then your final chart, steve, is about industrial wages falling behind. tell us about it. >> well, actually, mika, before we do that. can i do my middle chart? >> do your middle chart. which one? >> it's in the same theme of what happens. >> oh, okay. >> so -- and all the income inequality that we have had in this country over the last 20 years has led so tom very different outcomes. if you are a white child born in the bottom 25th percentile, the white working class, if you were born in 1987 versus being bourn in 1992, on an inflation adjusted basis, a child born in 1992 had 60% less income after inflation at the age of 30 than -- at the age of 27 than a

child born back here in 1987. so children. >> reporter: -- they're in this cohort of a white working class. they're maing less and less and less each birth year that they have. in contrast for the people at the top, they've actually been making a bit more for each child born. so you have this situation where it shows you the white working class parents are making less each child year after year as they're born completely opposite at the top. let's also compare millennials to baby boomers. i'm a baby boomer, and see what their difference in situation is. so if you talk about homeownership, 62% of baby boomers owned a home. 49% of millennials owned a home at the same age of 35. so millennials, worse off. if you look at negative net worth, bankrupt, 14% of millennials are bankrupt by the age of 35. only 9% of boomers were.

>> wow. >> if you look at wealth, millennials have on average, 30% less wealth than baby boomers had at the same point in their life, but the top 10% of millennials actually had more wealth than the baby boomers. so you have huge wealth inequality among millennials. so these are all reasons why people feel that the american dream isn't what it was supposed to be. >> all right. now you can go to it. >> sorry, mika. thanks so much. >> industrial wages. >> so i just heard some conversation about this, and you can see it right here very clearly. what's been happening? what's been happening is that the relative incomes, who's making more relative to the average versus less of the average has been shifting. it's been shifting in favor of the coast. we were talking a few minutes about the coasts and the blue states, connecticut, massachusetts, new york. you can see that their income relative to the national

average, which was always a little bit higher, has now soared up here. the mid western states, michigan, ohio, wisconsin, you can see that their incomes which were a little bit above, but basically average, are now well below average. why is that happening? it's happened a lot because of what happened to the wages of mostly white working class americans who work in factories. so here you can see a tool and dye maker back in 1980 had almost 20% higher income than the national average. today that same job has about 15% lower income than the national average. machinists, metal fabricafabric metals and solders, they've all gone down to well below the national average. a lot of this has to do with the climate unionization, the effect of imports. lots of things we can talk about, but the bottom line is

these folks are making a lot less money compared to the other americans than they used to, and arrange incomes in the states are lower. coming up, how the biden administration is preparing for a possible surge of migrants at the southern border ahead of president-elect donald trump's inauguration. nbc's julia ainsley brings her latest reporting when "morning joe" comes right back. t ing whe joe" comes right back. have you compared your medicare plan recently? with ehealth, you can compare medicare plans side by side for free. so we invited people to give ehealth a try and discover how easy it can be to find your medicare match. this is pretty amazing. i can go on a vacation with this money. i have quite a few prescriptions. that's why people call us. we're going to compare plans, and i'm gonna try to get you as much bang for your buck as possible. that's great. this one here covers all your prescriptions, your doctors as well. oh, wonderful.

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on day one, i will launch the largest deportation program in american history. i will rescue every city and town that has been invaded and conquered. these towns have been invaded, and these towns have been actually conquered. we're talking about the united states of america. and we will put these vicious and bloodthirsty criminals in jail, or at a minimum, keep them the hell out of our country. >> that was now president-elect donald trump promising mass

deportations, quote, on day one of his presidency. nbc news has exclusive new reporting on a potential surge on the border before donald trump is sworn in. joining us now, julia ainsley. what have you learned about these promises, and what else? >> it's interesting. this planning meeting we're finding out about that secretary of homeland secure alejandro mayorkas had took place on monday afternoon where they said, look, if trump is elected, we might see a surge between when biden leaves office and trump comes in, because there are so many immigrants who are going to think they have to come in now. so they started to look at bed space, how many people they could have at the border and how many could stay in place. then looking at the reality after tuesday night, they're

starting to ramp up discussions even more. right now they're not necessarily seeing a swarm of people coming, but they're paying attention to chat groups on whatsapp where smugglers advertise their services. they say, after the 21 of january they'll close the borders with extreme security. these are translated texts that we have. we have until january to enter. my sister is still in mexico. i can't sleep thinking of her. you have until the 10th of january. there's a chance. a lot of misinformation coming around these chat groups, sometimes from smugglers trying to tell a migrant now is the time to come. we saw a surge as well toward the end of the obama administration when there was this fear about trump shutting down the border, but it very well could be -- and there's already one caravan they're starting to monitor. >> i'm curious about the inverse

of this too, which are the people currently here who fear deportation right away. i'm wondering if you're picking up any intel on how that's going in the states specifically. are they looking for resources? are immigration lawyers high in demand? are state governors getting ready for potential clashes with the incoming trump administration around who can and should be deported and whether state resources should be used in the process. are we at that point? >> i think we are at that point, because so many of those conversations were happening in the weeks and months coming up to the election. a family has an undocumented father, the rest of the family is american citizens. are they going to leave and go to mexico, a place their children no nothing about? there are sheriff's deputies who have said, sign me up, i want to

work with the trump administration to carry out mass deportations. they have a 287g program that compels local law enforcement to work with i.c.e. other sanctuary cities have rea fused to work with i.c.e. because they think that hurts their relationship. we know one of the tools the trump administration would want to use to compel those sanctuary cities to get on board to help them with mass deportation is to withhold federal funding from justice department grants to sanctuary cities. that could be something, a fight that we see gearing up. it was already a legal battle in the first trump administration. i think a lot of fear in those communities, because really the numbers of illegal crossings at the border have gone way down. it's internally where there's a

lot of fear right now. coming up, president-elect donald trump made this promise to his supporters last year. >> i will appoint a real special prosecutor to go after the most corrupt president in the history of the united states of america, joe biden, and the entire biden crime family. >> lock him up! lock him up! >> how the justice department would handle those potential orders when "morning joe" comes right back. potential orders when "morning joe" comes right back to help you understand how to get the most from medicare. if you're eligible for medicare, it's a good idea to have original medicare. it gives you coverage for doctor office visits and hospital stays. but if you want even more benefits, you can choose a medicare advantage plan like the ones offered at humana. our plans combine original medicare with extra benefits in a single, convenient plan with $0, or low monthly plan

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kamala harris called trump today too. she conceded, and then explained what the word conceded means. [ laughter ] [ applause ] >> trump said that means you're stuck up, right, conceited? that's how it's supposed to be done in america.

there's an election, and then they count the votes, and if the democrat loses, they call to congratulate the winner. harris also gave a concession speech at howard university. she said it's going to be okay, the light of america's promise will always burn bright. and she's right. the reason america is the greatest country in the world is that even a simple garbage man and fry cook from mcdonald's can one day be president of the united states two different times, and i think that's inspiring. >> welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. vice president kamala harris officially conceded the race yesterday in a phone call to donald trump before giving an impassioned speech to her supporters. president biden, meanwhile, is expected to address the nation two hours from now. this as the president-elect began work on his transition.

we have two reports for you, starting with nbc news senior white house correspondent gabe gutierrez. >> reporter: this morning, for democrats, vice president harris' resounding defeat is still sinking in. >> while i concede this election, i do not concede the fight that fuelled this campaign. >> reporter: the vice president's concession speech at her alma mater, howard university, moving the light of america's promise will always burn bright. [ applause ] as long as we never give up and as long as we keep fighting. >> reporter: it was a brief, but historic campaign, harris taking over the democratic ticket barely three months ago, president biden releasing a written statement, calling for a

tremendous partner, both saying they'd help with the transition. >> a fundamental principle of american democracy is that when we lose an election, we accept the results. >> reporter: but within the democratic party, a difficult postmortem is already under way. >> democrats have to do some real soul searching. we can't just go in and talk to people a month before the election and take them for granted. a lot of people are tired of being taken for granted. >> reporter: independent senator joe manchin saying trump and republicans appealed to centrist voters. >> that's the middle. the power of the middle is unbelievable. >> reporter: new york congressman richie torres said donald trump has no greater friend than the far left, which has managed to alienate blacks and jews from the party.

president-elect trump dominated the vote with working class americans and those without a college education, while vermont senator bernie sanders blasted democratic leadership, writing, it should come as no surprise that the democratic party which has abandoned working class people would find that the working class has abandoned them. donald trump pulling off what may be the biggest comeback in modern american politics. >> this was, i believe, the greatest political movement of all time. >> reporter: president biden calling trump yesterday and inviting him to a white house meeting to, quote, ensure a smooth transition. the president-elect also holding phone calls with foreign leaders, including volodymyr zelenskyy of ukraine and xi jinping of china. with votes still being counted, trump is in a position to potentially sweep all seven battleground states, including the democratic blue wall of

wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania, becoming the first republican in 20 years to win the national popular vote. the president's eldest son donald trump jr. reveling in his victory. >> the other side likes to talk about the unity party. we've brought people from across the aisle. >> reporter: trump expanding his coalition from 2016, winning men and first-time voters and growing support among working class americans with a 17-point swing for those making under $100,000 a year and notching significant latino support, especially among men. >> this is a window of opportunity for the republican party to actually solve problems, expand and welcome more people in the party if they want to be able to maintain this. >> reporter: according to a "new york times" analysis, nearly 90% of counties with nearly complete results shifted toward trump on tuesday. >> america has given us an

unprecedented and powerful mandate. >> reporter: trump's victory coming after two assassination attempts and multiple criminal charges against him to which he has plead not guilty, also a felony conviction in new york, eric trump saying overnight those cases only strengthened his support. >> the american people saw through it and none of the things they throw at him, they don't stick. >> garrett haake with that report. joining us now ari melber, david rohde and ali vitali. we've been discussing this morning what propelled trump to his win. david, your latest reporting focuses on trump's potential plans to politicize the department of justice and how those could lead -- how that could lead to chaos and paralysis inside the department

and agencies that oversees, some of which include the dea, the fbi, the federal bureau of prisons, the u.s. marshal service and the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms and explosives. what more can you tell us? and can you perhaps pop in a little bit of what we were talking about before we went on the air? >> sure. trump has come in vowing to criminally investigate the biden administration, the biden family, maybe america garland, the attorney general jack smith, the special prosecutor. that's never happened before. the danger -- and there probably will be people who refuse to carry out such prosecutions. the supreme court with the immunity ruling has made it possible for trump to call the attorney general and order the attorney general to investigate joe biden. that's now legal thanks to this decision this spring. the chaos could come if prosecutors refuse to carry out meritless prosecutions. you'll see legal battles.

we'll all be covering it. and it will be sort of an on-steroids version of the infighting and chaos we saw in the fbi and doj, really the paralysis and disagreement that we saw in the first term. >> so if you could explain how there were attempts the first time around, because -- so this could be very different, because he knows what positions he needs to fill with who. >> yes. he's more skilled now at choosing people. we're hearing people being as possible attorney general is a lawyer named mark paletta. he's close with justice clarence thomas. he's very much a defender. he defended jenny thomas when she was asked to appear before the january 6th committee and has called justice thomas our

greatest supreme court justice. i think there's a lot of people in part because of what trump has said and others who really believe there's a deep state. they believe that trump was -- you know, did win in 2020. we saw this in the durham investigation, john durham who investigated james comey in the first term. they didn't find crimes. james comey wasn't indicted. john brennan want part of a secret conspiracy. we don't know what will happen here. they'll investigate the biden family and possibly jack smith and garland. when durham brought cases, he lost. juries failed to convict everyone that john durham tried to convict. >> comer famously said there's a lot of smoke, not a fire yet, but it ended up being all smoke. he never brought any evidence.

are they actually going to continue to pursue joe biden and others in this administration and maybe that wasn't just a political stunt? >> there's political pressure to do that, because this was such a central part of his message, the corrupt biden family. bill barr, you know, the hunter biden investigation launched under bill barr. he kept it secret. just, again, to credit -- to try to be fair and nonpartisan here, but the biden justice department did prosecutor hunter biden. hunter biden has plead guilty to tax charges. he has been convicted of the gun charges. robert menendez, convicted. henry cuellar. i'm not sure they're going to find that much, but i'm sure you'll see lots of investigations under a second trump administration. >> there's been talk about institutions, will they hold? largely they held up in the first term largely because mike

pence refused to overturn the election on january 6th. fears this time those institutional guardrails are not there. what's the level of concern you have as somebody who understands the law and people you talk to in justice about just that? >> well, i think donald trump has telegraphed the areas that he's more serious about. we know that at times he sort of lost focus, or he would put out tweets and then move onto the next thing. but the justice department and i would also argue immigration powers are two areas where he is super focused. we've all covered this. we're going to come into the second term completely fair and objective and see what happens. this candidate that david mentioned, you know, it's fine to have a favorite supreme court justice and it's fine to defend clients in private practice and do so zealously. but this is an individual who has also trafficked in basically conspiracy theories about the doj that he would potentially run. that's something you may not get a lot of deep soul searching

from the new republican senate if it's going to rubber stamp. so the other checks will be the judges who oversee warrants in the subpoena process, the juries that you just alluded to. if you have a spectrum here of where you're more or less concerned, i think you're more concerned on executive power, which is military power and how they view immigration powers and things they do that are secret. so we might not find out until the press continues to do its work, which we will do. we have lifetime federal judges. yes, you can try to forum shop. you can try to get it in front of a trump appointee. we have a lot of other judges. we have an appeals process. those are some guardrails. there are other areas where there are less guardrails. donald trump admitted the goal was to politicize and abuse and target enemies. >> wasn't just threats. he was actually trying to

execute. go ahead. >> as we talk about retribution against the alleged imagined deep state, the deep state took the night off on tuesday night and forgot to rig the election for joe biden. >> wow. okay. ali vitali, how does this all relate to the now republican-controlled senate and the new members there and potentially republican-controlled house? what david pointed out in the break, some of these people who are hired may just be acting and they don't need any approval. does that make sense? >> we'll see if they get confirmed or not. it's a foregone conclusion that republicans are going to be able to take control of the body. but to have a two or three seat majority when you have people who don't just immediately vote along party lines, having a larger majority means you need

to worry less about them especially when it comes to confirmations. on the house side when you talk about the james comey investigation, there's all smoke and no fire, there's going to be a lot of smoke and no one opened a window. it's looking increasingly like it might end as the majority. anyone who was a trump detractor is largely gone. anyone in his allyship is probably going to have gavel power. jim jordan is going to continue most likely to be head of the judiciary committee. we saw what he did with subpoena power this time. imagine what he does with subpoena power and a marching plan when donald trump has made no secrets or subtleties about what he wants to do in terms of the investigations that he wants his closest allies on the hill to embark on. democrats say we know what we're

up against, we know the playbook, we know what this has looked like in the past. on the republican side, they say the same thing, and there's also potential they're able to walk in with control of the house, senate and white house, and that's exactly what they had in 2017. >> willie did start with the smoke/fire analogy. >> in-game analysis. very meta moment. >> let's say you're right when you say the people who would stand in the way of donald trump are gone in the house for sure and largely in the senate. in fact, marco rubio said last night when asked how they're going to proceed in the senate, he said we'll exercise great deference to a man who just won a sweeping mandate. can we take a quick look at the -- that's the house on the

left, senate on the right. do we have an update? >> they've taken away my big board, which is fine. but on the senate side, i do think nevada and arizona are likely to stay in the democratic column, based on where they are right now with the vote totals. we haven't called them yet, but that's largely the expectation. in the house, north carolina is looking like it stays there. in iowa looks like she may squeak by by about 800 votes. maryland is another one where it was a democratic controlled seat but it's basically a 50/50 race. if a republican is able to come out there, that's a notch in the republican column. redistricting is an important story, because democrats went in only needing to flip four seats, but really they ended up needing to flip seven because redistricting in north carolina

made it so they were able to easily win three seats. it's going to be a slim majority. it's going to be tough for mike johnson, especially if they don't change that motion to vacate rule. but republicans are going to march in lock step. we'll see what kind of profile hakeem jeffries cuts as the leader of the opposition. >> what do you think the most realistic potential is in terms of president trump acting out on his threats when he assumed office? >> as the national security editor, i think we are going to cover him fairly and factually and honestly. >> yeah. >> he will try to politicize the justice department, the fbi, the cia, even health care, public health agencies. >> who are some of the people he's considering for those? >> they're all different people like paletta who come in with different beliefs, rfk jr. the check now is judges and

juries, but it's civil servants who have worked in the federal government for republicans and democrats. right now my colleague is reporting on this people are deciding in the justice department whether they're going to wait and be fired when they refuse to prosecute or they resign now. these are people i have written about a lot. they are not a deep state. they are public servants. they don't make that much money being in government, but that's going to be the check. an fbi investigation without probable cause, a prosecutor who does that, a cia analyst trying to present facts about russia and china, that's a critical part of the process. that's one of the biggest tests to come. >> i don't think we know 100%, but i think we have a lot of signals. and there's obviously been a tremendous electoral outcome, not that it's so much broader than other years. it's not a reagan landslide, but given what we've been through

and how the country moved, you can call that moving against incumbents, you can call that moving anger over inflation, you can call that moving toward republicans and trump. we all have weeks and months of that and analysis. the issue for the government is, we've never put rule of law, the first amendment, the fourth amendment, these protections we have that are pretty important, up for a vote. they're not supposed to be up for a vote. while you can claim a big mandate, there's a political process there. and democrats from how the coverup of biden's true condition went to the rushed outcome and no primaries, these are all up for fair political debate. but you don't get to say, oh, you know, we had a two-point margin in the end, so the first amendment is only for elon musk. that's not how it works. so i think people have lived through this to the degree that

everyone gets it and is gritty. this isn't a time for flowery speeches and oh the line will hold. we'll see. it's people who hold the line. the line doesn't hold itself. any claim, any confusion, any propaganda about the idea that because you have a margin, however big that you thought it was, that it cancelled out people's constitutional human rights is not how we've done it in this country. there will be a lot of different people who have to hold that line. >> ari melber, david rohde, thank you very much. his new book entitled "where tyranny begins, the justice department, the fbi and the war on democracy" is on sale right now. and nbc news capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, thank you as well for your insights. coming up, stock futures

continue to rise this morning as wall street tries to extend its major post-election rally. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin joins us with a preview of the markets as well as the fed's expected interest rate cut. "morning joe" will be right back. rest rate cut. "morning joe" will be right back liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives. it brings people together in meaningful ways. ♪ ♪ ♪♪ 25 past the hour. a live look at the white house this morning. a look at a couple of must-read opinion pages. in the "new york times" nick chris to have writes about his manifesto for despairing democrats, offering a blueprint for how, quote, ordinary americans of my ilk can respond. he writes, i accept donald trump's victory. i will be a watchdog, not a lap dog. i will try to understand why so many americans disagree with me. i will keep my cool. i will care for my mental health. i will push for blue places to govern themselves better.

i will temper my strong views with humility. i will share thanksgiving with relatives even if i think they're nuts. and instead of despairing, i will find purpose. also in the "new york times" maureen dowd has a piece entitled "all the demons are here," in which she writes trump has exploited the widespread disillusionment that has curdled into cynicism about a ruling class rife with hypocrisy, self-aggrandizement and bad judgment. americans have felt let down again and again since the '60s with wars we shouldn't have been in, occupations we shouldn't have had, the bank scandals that were allowed to happen, trade agreements that hollowed out manufacturing hubs. then there was the devouring pandemic. many americans felt left behind, fooled by republicans and disdained by democrats. all the dislocation was exacerbated by social media algorithms, igniting anger,

outrage, resentment, conspiracies and fake stories. trump is a human algorithm, always ratcheting up antagonism. he's a personification and exploiter of all things creating anxiety in people's lives. the stock market continues to see record highs since the election of donald trump. all three major indices up yesterday. the dow jones climbing more than 1500 points. let's bring in andrew ross sorkin. andrew, it looks like the markets continue to like the election of donald trump. >> yes, but -- and i think there's an important but here. if you are on wall street, you think you like this to some degree. i think if you are a ceo of a corporation today, you are both trying to be optimistic, but also a little bit anxious. here's the thing to watch, the

bond market. i said there was an opportunity -- potentially the bond market is the governor o p especially if red. the bond market is sending a warning in the wake of donald trump's election victory on tuesday. investors may have been looking ahead to lower interest rates now that the federal reserve has started cutting. no more. the new message yields are sending, we are heading back for a higher-for-longer world of interest rates. the question is just how high. we've already started to see the ten-year note is higher. that is the benchmark. mortgage rates are higher. we talked about the prospect of higher interest rates in this country and higher inflation. that's what this really is about, higher inflation. and this is a major component part of that. while we can look at the stock market and that is a signal of

optimism, i don't want to discount that at all. there's this other side of the market saying watch out, this may become a little bit more complicated. >> the bond market is important why? >> the bond market is important because these are the folks effectively who are lending the u.s., all of us money. those folks are saying, we're going to lend you money at x rate because we think you can pay it back. the day we think you can't pay it back, we'll continue to lend you money, but we're going to charge more on that, which means you're going to get less on the other end. if we think there's going to be inflation, that is a problem. we talked about the potential of tariffs and everything else and whether the other side of the deregulatory efforts that president-elect trump said he was going to put in place, will that offset inflation? maybe, maybe not. i think the bond market is saying maybe not. >> so the fed is going to cut rates today. >> today.

quarter point likely today at 2:00 p.m. >> you say that's less of a sure thing because of the unknown implications of what trump is going to bring. >> he's bringing uncertainty, but i think even more than that there's the question of, look, if you have lower taxes for longer, he wanted to put that tax package from '17 and make that permanent. that may have an inflationary aspect. he also will be adding over giveaways. that could have an inflation effect. all of those things make it more complicated. so it's so interesting that you have dynamic where the stock market is moving higher and the bond market is saying i'm a little anxious. >> so as predicted, ceos falling all over themselves to congratulate donald trump publicly on his election.

[ indiscernible ] >> there's a whole list. john paulson, who's been outspoken about trump, has been named among those that could be a treasury secretary. jay claden who is the executive chair of apollo group, a private equity firm, he may be in position for a major role in the administration. the list goes on. kevin warsh, who used to be in the fed. gary cohen, his name is now being bandied about. howard lut nick, who's running from cantor fitzgerald. linda mcmahon. there's a whole cadre looking for roles. there's been a lot of criticism of the ceos yesterday that were congratulating the president-elect on twitter, saying why are the ceos doing that, are they trying to curry favor with him and what not?

it is true that just for context that pre-social media, if you are a fortune 500 ceo in america when the president, no matter who they were was elected, you wrote them a letter and congratulatedthem. this is a new version of that. is jeff bezos trying to curry favor because of this or that? i don't subscribe to that theory, but i saw enough of it on twitter yesterday to try to talk about it here. >> the biggest ceo supporter, of course, is elon musk. there's speculation he would get some sort of government role. >> it's unclear. >> what would that mean? what sort of clearances would he have? >> he probably has more security clearance because of the context he already has. it's unclear if he's going to be an advisory inform-style role or something that's formal. if it were formal-formal, he'd have to give up his role at

other places. that's not something i could imagine he's up for, and i don't think it's in the cards. he's going to try to play a role in reducing government costs. what's complicated about that, between social security and medicaid, there's certain things you can't touch. he's talking about $2 trillion of cuts. that's a huge number. i was talking to steve mnuchin, he said that's a lot of money. part of the issue for our economy is going to be, you know, do you do this with a scalpel, very, very carefully, meticulously, or do you do it with blunt force? if you do it with blunt force, it can have a real impact on the economy and of course will have an impact on so many lives of folks and jobs and folks who have given their careers over, frankly, to the u.s. government too. there's a lot to think about. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin,

thank you very much as always. still ahead, a look at a major wildfire burning in southern california, forcing people out of their homes this morning. also josh stein of north carolina is our guest following his landslide victory in a state that donald trump won fairly easily. "morning joe" is coming right back. easily "morning joe" is coming right back

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the mountain fire in ventura county grows to 14,000 acres. dana griffin has the latest. >> reporter: this morning, a massive fast-moving wildfire, tearing through communities across southern california. santa ana winds up to 70 miles an hour fuelling the flames of the mountain fire. when you take a look back, what are you thinking? >> that's what i just left.

if i can get back up, there i would. >> reporter: the inferno rendering water releases from choppers ineffective. firefighters dealing with limited visibility because of thick clouds of smoke. >> firefighters were right off the bat engaged in pulling people out of their houses and saving lives. >> reporter: the mountain fire rapidly torching 10,000 acres and growing, leaving multiple people hospitalized and threatening homes and businesses. crews, including dozens of volunteers, working around the clock to extinguish the flames. state officials say the fire started early wednesday, quickly crossing the freeway and wreaking havoc in residential areas. less than an hour south of the mountain fire, another fire breaking out near malibu, that blaze leading to a temporary shelter-in-place order with dozens of acres burned and homes damaged before emergency crews were able to put it out.

fire and law enforcement officials urging evacuees to remain patient. >> please continue to stay out of the hour unless you absolutely need to be here. please, stay away. >> nbc's dana griffin with that report. coming up, he maintained democratic control of the governor's mansion in a state where republicans have held legislative majorities for over a decade, and he did so by getting 15% of the trump voters in his state to back him. north carolina governor-elect josh stein joins us straight ahead. you're watching "morning joe." st ahead. you're watching "morning joe."

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we chose hope over hate, competence over chaos, decency over division. that's who we are as north

carolina. i'm so happy you have elected me to be your next governor. >> that was north carolina governor-elect josh stein giving us his victory speech on tuesday in raleigh. despite donald trump winning north carolina's 16 electoral votes, stein, a democrat, won his race defeating the current republican lieutenant governor mark robinson. in fact, 15% of those who voted for trump for president also backed stein for governor. in addition, democrats in north carolina have broken the gop's super majority in the state legislature after flipping a district east of raleigh. that means come january republicans will not be able to override any vetoes from the incoming democratic governor. the governor-elect joins us now. he's currently the state's attorney general. it's great to have you on the show. congratulations. there were -- how do i say this? there were some cross currents in your election that impacted the outcome, and yet, i'd like

to know what you think was part of the success of bringing folks from the other side to vote for you that perhaps went beyond the weaknesses that your opponent -- revealed about your opponent in the final weeks before election day? >> i'm incredibly honored that the people of north carolina elected me to be their governor. i'm very grateful and extremely eager to get to work on the issues that matter. i think that's why we had success here in north carolina. we were able to present the really stark contrast -- and it wasn't just my race. it was up and down the ballot here in north carolina -- between folks who fight for issues that matter to them in their daily lives and who deliver in a meaningful way against people who are just extremists. i'm gratified that the voters not only elected me but we defended our secretary of state and attorney general's office. we broke the super majority in

the state house. there's a lot -- we actually had a pretty good night here in north carolina, and now it's time to get to work. >> congratulations. i do want to ask you about what was determinative in your race, because there's been so much talk, so much morning after, so much discussion about where democrats went wrong in national races and some of the senate races. can you speak to the way you ran your campaign and what lessons might be available to other democrats as they try to pick up the pieces from what happened on tuesday night? >> you have to do two things. you have to reassure folks that you actually care for them and you're going to work on issues that matter to them.

people want to know they're going to be safe in their homes and neighborhoods. they want to know the economy is going to present more opportunities for people to have a better future. they want to know their personal freedoms, women's right to make reproductive health care decisions are going to be respected. when you contrast that to where my opponent was, i think it was a clear choice. the additional factor is i have a history of delivering for folks here in north carolina. i'm a two-term attorney general, the only attorney general in the country who's a democrat to represent a state that trump had won twice, and it's the same thing. i showed folks that i'm willing to work across the aisle to get good things done, because good ideas don't have a home in one party. there are enough good ideas out there. so i partnered with the republicans to fight the fentanyl crisis, partnered with republicans to modernize our sex

crime laws to better protect children. these are issues that clearly matter to all people, because victims are democrats, they're republicans, they're unaffiliated. it doesn't matter as long as you're there fighting for the people of north carolina. >> there has been a lot of second guessing about democrats how they sort of left some of their coalition behind. president-elect trump made some inroads with latino voters. you obviously have had success there. what is your message? what can the national party learn from your victory in terms of ensuring those groups don't feel taken for granted? >> just fact for people. people have a lot of the same interests no matter ensuring those groups don't feel taken for granted? >> just fight for people. people have a lot of the same interests no matter who they are, whether you're latino, african american, white, asian,

doesn't matter. everyone wants good schools. everyone wants an economy where they have a fair shot of making it. everyone wants safe neighborhoods. everyone wants those personal freedoms respected. if you talk about those issues in a way that appeals to all people and you have a track record of getting things done, i believe the voters will reward us. >> governor elect, one of the issues that will cross your desk immediately is the continued recovery and cleanup from the hurricane and flooding in western north carolina, the wonderful town of asheville. what can you say about progress there? >> this is a project of months and in many instances years. the devastation to roads and infrastructure, the did he have devastation to people's homes and lives.

we have to be there for north carolina. i look forward to working because the people of western north carolina they're people. they're people first. they don't care if the person they're helping is a republican, democratic or unaffiliated. they're a person who is in need. that's the exact sam approach we have to take as their government. >> north carolina governor elect josh stein, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> appreciate it. >> take care. we'll be right back with much more "morning joe." hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. most

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you're not going to be a dictator are you? i said, no, other than day one.

we're closing the border and drilling. from day one i will launch the largest deportation program of criminals. we're going to get them out. the moment we win we will review the cases of every political prisoner victimized by the harris regime and i'll sign their pardons on day one. on day one i'll end kamala's devastation export ban. do you believe we have a ban? i'll immediately terminate the green new scam. on day one i will sign a new executive order to cap federal funding. we're going to cut federal funding for any school pushing critical race theory, transgender insanity and any other political, racism content. starting on day one we'll end inflation and make america affordable again.

on day one of the trump presidency i will restore the travel ban, suspend refugee admission, stop the resettlement and keep the terrorist out of our country. >> a look at what some of donald trump has promised on day one. former candidate robert f. kennedy jr. may oversee the majority of the country's health policy. speaking with nbc's vaughn hillyard, kennedy a vaccine skeptic, gave a preview of what his role in the next administration could look like. >> for you, what have your conversations been like with donald trump? he said he will put you in charge of the public health agencies. what does that look like? >> he's been very specific. he wants me to clean up the corruption of the agencies, the

conflicts of interest that have turned those agencies and the captive agencies from the pharmaceutical industry and the food industries, that they're supposed to be regulating. to return those agencies to the gold standard science, evidence-based medicine that they were famous for when i was a kid. number three, to make america healthy again. >> would you like to be nominated to be the secretary of health and human services? >> like i said, i don't know if that's the post i want. i may be more effective in the white house as a health czar or something like that. we don't know. we haven't decided. we're meeting today on these issues. >> you've been a crusader on questioning vaccines. are there specific vaccines that you would seek to take off the market? >> i'm not going to -- i'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. i've never been anti-vaccine.

>> you will not take any vaccine currently on the market? >> i'm not -- if somebody -- if vaccines are working for somebody, i'm not going to take them away. people ought to have a choice. that choice ought to be informed by the best information. i'm going to make sure science and safety studies are out there and people can make individual assessments about whether that product is going to be good for them. >> would that include covid vaccines currently on the market? >> i want the best science for every vaccine. >> you say clearing up corruption. would that mean clearing out the top level federal service workers currently at the fda? >> in some categories i would say. >> what does that look like? >> in some categories their entire department, the nutrition department at the fda, that are -- have to go, not doing their job. >> would you eliminate any of

the agencies? >> my -- my -- eliminate the agency as long as it requires congressional approval i wouldn't be doing that. i can get the corruption out of the agencies. >> the world know where he stands on vaccines. he said i won't take them away if they're working for people. they are working for people and have been for generations and generations. the question is does donald trump give him the job he promised or was he using him for votes? >> we'll see. robert f. kennedy thinks he's getting the job. some people don't get vaccines and it affects everybody. taking fluoride out of the water, these are real world implications of a donald trump victory. that does it for us this morning. we'll be back tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. sharp. ana cabrera picks up coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," the transition of