have spoken, and, um, voted for trump, and, um, i want him to do well in the next four years. i want our country to do well. i'm just thankful there wasn't any voting fraud this time. last time, i mean, all those illegal immigrants who crashed the border and raped and murdered people and then voted six times, um, that was unfortunate. but thankfully this time everything was clean, so it's great that every election has been really, valid except for that last one four years ago. so the twinkle in my eye in case you couldn't see it as i said that. but i believe in democracy and the will of the people. >> coach kerr taking us off the air tonight. and to you, i say thank you for the privilege of joining you this evening. i am signing off. i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up

late. i'll see you at the end of the tomorrow. it will be night cap time. as of this hour, the battle for control of the house continues. democrats currently hold 197 seats, and republicans have 211. 27 seats remain uncalled right now. in the senate, republicans have won control with at least 52 seats so far. that is a less than ideal balance of power for democrats looking to play defense against the incoming trump administration, but we have been here before. in 2016, trump didn't just win the white house. republicans won overwhelming control of the house and a 52-seat majority in the seat. but even in those circumstances, democrats still managed to check trump's power. you might remember that during trump's first campaign for the white house, this was one of

his key promises. >> we're going to deliver real change that once again puts america first. that begins with immediately repealing and replacing the disaster known as obamacare. >> trump had the white house, a majority in the house, and a majority in the senate. but still, when push came to shove, trump could not kill obamacare. he managed to get the bill, a bill through the house, but when that bill got to the senate, even republican senators thought it was too extreme, so they wrote their own bill instead. and even then, the republican controlled senate could not pass that bill, which, again, was written by republican senators. you probably remember how that all went down because it was very, very dramatic. it was the end of july 2017.

republican senator susan collins and lisa murkowski had crossed the aisle to vote with democrats. vice president mike pence was eagerly standing by to cast the tie breaking vote to kill the affordable care act only to have senator john mccain stun both republicans and the nation with his vote at 1:30 in the morning. moderate republicans joining with democrats in the senate saved the health care of what, at the time, was an estimated 15 million americans. the number has now risen to 50 million. but, stating the obvious, senator john mccain isn't in the senate anymore. and either are more moderate republicans like jeff flake or

mitt romney. collins and murkowski are still there, but they can't serve alone as a bulwark against trump's extreme policies in a second term. so the question now is, is the hope of a senate guardrail entirely lost? or might there be some mostly normal republicans, or just not entirely bonkers conservatives somewhere in the upper chamber? has donald trump shifted the republican party so far right that the people we used to think of as conservative republicans might actually become sort of party moderates in a second trump administration. i mean, remember, if you will, at one point in time, mitt romney was the republican nominee for president. and now he's so centrist that he's essentially all but left the republican party. things have really changed in the maga years. is there anyone else out there who might reveal themselves to be actually interested in a

functioning government? remember oklahoma senator james langford? the republican senator who authored the bipartisan immigration bill that trump ultimately killed? or what about john cornyn? or even someone like north carolina senator tim tillis who whipped republican votes for the respect of marriage act that would have enshrined marriage equality into law and resulted in tillis being formally censured by his state's republican party. i know this is a long shot, but immigration and guns and lgbtq rights sometimes, very rarely, but sometimes move even the most hardened conservatives into action. and if there's even a chance that a few republicans might

be convinced to act on these issues, what can and should democrats in the upper chamber do to help create a senate guardrail against the the next four years of a trump agenda? well, joining us now is the democratic senior senator from minnesota, amy klobuchar, who's, may i say, re-elected to a fourth term on tuesday. senator klobuchar, congratulations on re-election, and thank you for being here tonight. >> thank you. >> um, first, am i wish casting here? am i looking for, i mean, i know i'm sort of wish casting, but is it futile to hope the window has shifted so far to the right that people like tillis or langford might be a bulwark against the most insane elements of the trump agenda? >> first of all, i think we all know we've been through a lot this week, and just watching kamala harris give that beautiful speech, and the tears of the young people watching, it's been a hard

thing. but a lot of us right now, we cannot dwell on that. we have to move forward. that means, of course, a peaceful transition of power, which the vice president explained. but it also means, as you've just focused on, finding those moments where we can get things done to improve people's lives. because people clearly spoke out in this election, and democrats, the idea that we would just say oh, we're okay, hey, some of us won, that's not good enough. this has been an economic vote. that's my gut check. but we want to be methodical and look at this and not just say someone said this on tv and look exactly at the facts. but my gut check is this is economics and people feeling like things are swirling out of control. whether it's technology or the global economy. and we have there for them. what does that mean? it means sometimes standing our ground against policies

that will make things worse, but also could be finding moments of common ground. you just pointed out john mccain and that moment. he actually whispered to me ahead of time what he was going to do. i'll never forget that. and he stood up, as did susan collins and lisa murkowski. and we have seen this even since john mccain, since we lost him. we've seen people stand up on the republican side here and there. i don't think it's going to be a bulwark, let me be clear. i am not naive about this against some of the really bad things that were contained in project 2025 or some of the nominees that we have to stand up against. but i do think you have to find those moments of common ground because basically message received in the american people. they want us to get them things done. not talk about bills from the past. not talk about things that happened that somehow aren't relevant to their lives. they need people to stand with them. >> i'm interested in what

you're saying about the message received. but obviously democrats will look for republicans who may want to move a few paces towards the center. bullet it -- but it sounds like the move among senate democrats they're saying it's incumbent on us to seek out common ground. it's not a wagon circling at this hour, but looking across the aisle to say okay, the american public said it loud and clear, we need to find a way to get along here. is that what you're saying? >> i'm saying that we have to find those moments. and it may not be with donald trump all the time. i may be, remember, he said he wanted to repeal the affordable care act, but we reached out to the public, made the case, got the word out whether it was on social media or tv, we got it out there. and then republicans came with us. that's kind of how i looked at it. they looked at the facts, they looked at where their constituents are, and then we stood up against it regardless of what donald trump said. so i think some of that will

be going on. the other piece of this will be finding any common ground we can to actually pass laws. but there will be, and i want to emphasize this, we'll have to stand our ground. and with the way the senate rules work, we'll be able to do that. we'll also have to get a bunch done in the next few weeks, including a number of judicial nominees that have been awaiting action. so we have, to me, it's the short term, get that done, peaceful transition of power, and then i'm chairing the inauguration, no matter who wins that was my job -- >> that's the short straw, i think that's officially known as the shortest straw in washington. >> there you go, my friend. but then we head into this moment where we can't just be blind to what happened in this election. we have to look at what people really need. child care costs, housing, see if there's some common ground with other republicans that we could actually percolate up a bill on these things and get

something done that actually expands housing. from the rural areas to the suburban to the urban areas. the issue of prescription drugs. that was my bill, and it was one of the more popular things that got done in the last few years. we have those ten drugs that the biden-harris administration put out there, finally got something done. well, guess what? the next 15 drugs are next year. the next 15 drugs are after that. and so i will be pushing this new administration to make sure that they negotiate those prices with the pharmaceutical companies, and we keep bringing the cost of drugs down. so we'll have different roles depending on the issue or what's up there. but we just cannot say well, this just happened in other countries, so there you go. we have to actually have a strategy for each and every thing. and of course there will be changes. the idea we need to focus more on bread and butter issues, that's what i've done in my race. i know a lot of my colleagues

in a lot of the battleground statings have done the same. and we need to keep going with that because we just can't keep looking back. we have to move forward. >> you draw a distinction between, um, senate republicans and donald trump. and i think the american voters do too because senate republican candidates did worse than donald trump, including in your race, where there's the largest gap. i think it's like royce white, your republican opponent, got 40.5% of the vote. donald trump got almost 47 points. you also did better than kamala harris. but the notion here is that people are looking at senate candidates differently than they look at the top of the ticket. that seems like potentially good news. if the republic is not rewarding extreme candidates, hopefully they want the senate to be a more deliberative chamber. crazy people don't belong there. >> correct. they want checks. again, while we had some

tremendous losses. two of my best friends in the senate, tester and brown, we is it together in the same row. i think one of the things we need to do, by the way, in our party in the senate, not just talk to the people who won, but talk to the people who lost and get their ideas of the hand waged against us and of course the people we represent. but one of the things that i have found to be helpful for me is a go not just where it's comfortable, but where it's uncomfortable. i visit all 87 counties every year. i get a lot of stuff from people that said i didn't vote for you, but i liked this or i didn't vote for you, but will you do this for me. i think we need this idea that if people, and i don't see anyone on the senate and democratic side that are like this, but for people that think we're kind of above the voters and they don't know what they're saying or doing, you've got to hear about their lives. a bunch of them live in areas where they kind find child care, but want to go to work. a bunch are working in

hospitals where there's not enough employees, so they're working double shift after double shift. you have police officers and police agencies that are really understaffed. we have to create incentives to get people into the jobs where we really need the help right now as well as making it easier to get the degrees. the one and two-year degrees sometimes for those jobs. i just think there's a bunch of things we can do, for which there is some republican support, to get to where we need to go. but i just want to make clear, i'm not a pollyanna. i lived through the donald trump era. i fully expect to see some of the same again, and we were able to successfully join with some republicans in stopping some of the nominees, but i don't think that can define our party or the work we can do going forward. we must be bigger than that, and you know a lot of democrats in the house and senate agree with me. >> yeah. well your tenacity in going

into difficult situations and talking to people whose views differ from your own extends to your chairmanship of the inauguration. senator amy klobuchar from minnesota doing the tough lift. thank you for your time. >> doing the work. >> thank you for your perspective, we really appreciate it. >> okay, thank you. now that we've gone through the situation in the senate, what happens in the house? the chances for a democratic takeover in the lower chamber, what are they? and whether republicans could even govern if they manage to hang on to their majority coming up next. and coming up later, how donald trump won his way back into office by championing sixism loud and proud. we'll get into that and why so many white women voted for him anyway.

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if you can remember all the way back to donald trump's first impeachment, you might remember these guys. alexander and eugene who were both career staffers on the national security council. twins. alexander and eugene were among the first to raise concerns about trump's efforts to pressure ukrainian president zelenskyy for dirt on joe biden.

after trump's impeachment both brothers were unceremoniously fired by president trump. but tonight nbc news can project that eugene vinman has won the race for virginia's 7th congressional district. there's a handsful of swing districts that's helped keep the house of representatives competitive. at this hour, republicans are still 7 seats shy of the 218 seats they need for a majority, but even if they eke out a small majority, the house speaker mike johnson will face the same problem republicans have faced the last several years, an ungovernable conference where any one member has the power to throw anything into chaos. joining me now is brandon buck. brandon, here's the thing. well, first of all, do you think there's any reason to

believe that the raucous house conference becomes any less raucous if there's a republican in the white house? do you think the pattern we've seen play out over and over again the last couple of years somehow changes? >> i think they'll be a little more disciplined. i think donald trump has much more sway to keep them -- >> in line? >> much more than mike johnson does. but this majority will be significantly smaller than when donald trump was first president. i was walking through new york earlier, and it was eight years ago we went to meet with donald trump to talk about the agenda trying to get him to understand this is what we'll do, and he basically said you figure that part out. i trust you to be in charge of legislative agenda. i don't think that will happen this time. he thinks this is his government, he's calling all of the shots. now he'll put it all on mike johnson to execute. however, we had a 20 seat majority back then, and still had trouble. like you said earlier, we failed on health care because we didn't have the votes.

they can't do anything on their own with the majority they have now. they did nothing of consequence the last couple of years, and now you're talking about big things with no margin of error, it will be difficult. >> and there's a new rule that any one member can force a motion to vacate and oust the speaker. on one hand, one would think trump wants stability in the house, but on the other hand he loves getting people fired or firing them. do you think that rule changes? >> i can't imagine it changes because the members think that's their accountability to hold the speaker in line. it's an impossible situation. >> it's a door in the floor under every seat. >> absolutely. but i do think that back then, in 2017, it's like the freedom caucus guys who were giving us problems. that's not going to happen this time. no one is going to stand up to donald trump. but there aren't a lot of moderates left either. it's a very uniform congress.

member it's not a problem for them. maybe the house is really remade in his image and there aren't a lot of independent types. the liz cheneys and paul ryans aren't around. >> but it could also be a one-seat majority, brendan, meaning losing anyone in a midterm, do you read anything into the fact that republicans have gained a net of two seats so far, but democrats are ahead in at least one republican seat that haven't been called. even if it goes to republicans, it's going to be incredibly narrow, and i'm wondering if that tells you anything in an election where donald trump won resoundingly? >> well, any new president, any congressional majority is going to say they have a mandate. he could have a two-seat majority, and they'll say they

have a mandate, and they won't be interested in bipartisanship. >> yeah, i would never suggest that. >> as senator klobuchar was talking about, there may be some bipartisan issues on the margins, but the house will say if the senate is trying to do bipartisan things, the house will say we don't want you to bring it up on the floor. we just got elected to a majority, we were given a mandate to do conservative things, and that will be the entire mind set of the entire conference. >> right, for at least two years. i just wonder how much you think it will be a go for broke strategy knowing they could be ousted in 2022 depending on how hard core they want to get on the first two years? >> i don't know exactly what the house republican conference agenda is other than the tax bill. preserving the tax law will of course be the top priority. the things donald trump says he wants to do are mostly

things he can do himself. tariffs, deportations. he just needs resources. funding the government, getting money for things, increasing the debt limit. that's where republicans have run into a wall and had to have democrats bail them out. that's where the really interesting dynamic will be. they'll probably end up punting. there's a government funding deadline at the end of the year, and will probably extend it to next year. but reality will catch up. they won't be able to pass funding for the government on their own. they'll need democrats. >> say it again, they'll need who? >> they'll come to jeffries and ask for help with government funding. the same thing got kevin mccarthy kicked out, needing democrats to help fund the government. >> great to hear from you and see you. thank you for offering your wisdom. still ahead tonight, donald trump ran against the first black woman to lead the ticket of after major political party by targeting

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for 107 days, we watched a presidential race between one candidate who might have been america's first female

president, and another who will now be america's first felon president. during the 107 days, kamala harris didn't even really mention her gender. but donald trump and his surrogates sure did. this was a real ad taken out by billionaire elon musk's super pac. >> kamala harris is a c-word. you heard that right. a big old c-word. >> according to the ad, the c-word meant communist and not, you know, the actual c word. but you'd be forgiven for not believing that if you caught any of trump's campaign rallies. >> she's a fake, a fraud, she's a pretender. she and her pimp handlers will destroy her country. >> she never worked there, but

i did a little bit. this place is amazing. >> she's a very low iq individual. she's dumb as a rock, and you can't have that. >> we can't stand you, you're a [ bleep] vice president. the worse. you're the worst vice president. you're fired, get the hell out of here, you're fired. >> and then there were the threats of violence directed at vice president harris. >> i know iron mike, and he's a great guy. mike tyson. he's been through a lot, but he can fight. let me tell you, that guy could fight. could you imagine mike? oh, he says put mike in the ring with kamala. that would be interesting. >> i think they'll walk all over her.

she'll be so easy for them. she'll be like a play toy. they look at her and say we can't believe we got so lucky. >> she's going to get paralyzed in the situation room while the generals have their way with her. >> but trump's 2024's misogyny is his brand and a big part of his political origin story. >> you've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, disg your twitter account -- >> only rosie o' donnell. >> no, it wasn't. >> you might remember through trump reacted to that question from fox's megyn kelly the very next day. >> you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes. blood coming out of her wherever. >> eight years later, in the final weeks of his 2024 campaign, trump was con fronting the possibility that women might come out and vote against him in significant snubs.

and so on the eve of this election, trump recruited a familiar face to help him out. >> he will be a protector of women, and it's why i'm voting for him. what i don't want, and what i don't think you want is the left's version of masculinity. i'm not into their version of toxic masculinity or new masculinity. i prefer the old version. and i prefer a president who understands how to be strong and how to fight. >> more women voted for donald trump in 2024 than 2020. white women, in particular, voted 53% for donald trump. i'm going to talk about how that happened coming up next with shannon watts, the the organizer of white women answer the call and myawiley.

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has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. >> guess what, guys win again, okay? men win again. we control your bodies. there will never be a female president ever! it's over! glass ceiling, dude, it's a ceiling made of [ bleep] bricks. you'll never break it. your stupid face keeps hitting the brick ceiling. we will keep you down forever. you will never control your own bodies! that is how at least some

male trump supporters are celebrating his win, by continuing the degrading and threatening behavior that was a hall mark of the trump campaign. but the question is about the women who voted for trump. joining me is mya wiley and shannon watts. thank you guys both for being here. a few moments ago we were talking about the numbers here of white women who voted for donald trump, and the reality is that more women voted for, first of all white women voted for donald trump in similar numbers to previous election cycles before even the most threatening and violent rhetoric came out of his mouth, though there was plenty in 2016 and 2020. but women voted in greater numbers than hillary clinton and kamala harris. do you have a theory on why

that might be? >> well, first, let's just say this. women are not a monolith. black women came out in droves for kamala harris and hillary clinton. those are different issues. and by the way, when all the focus was on black men and what are black men gonna do, and the rest of us were sitting here going well, black men actually typically out vote white women for the candidate that has and shared more interests with women. and there is less of a gender gap between black men and black women than any other racial group. the only reason i'm saying that is because -- >> it's a super important point. >> it's a super important point because the reality of how complicated gender is in these races is that a lot of ma misogyny for black women was also about race. >> yeah. >> was also about understanding, you know, we're

the ones. remember that halloween parade in pennsylvania in the town where firefighters decided it was fine to have a grown man dressed as donald trump dragging a grown woman dressed as kamala harris in chains behind him? that was race and gender. i think the one thing that we have known and has been true for a very long time in our voting history is that there are white women who vote their speaker of the -- their ideology, and there are those voting their race opposed to their gender, and we're seeing that this election cycle as well. that means we should not put all women in a single category. it's a more complex story. but at the end of the day, to see any of the images or hear any of this language, and you didn't even play all of it. >> yes, we don't have enough time. >> you didn't play the one where trump started to see the b word and got the entire crowd right before the

election to call the sitting vice president of the united states the b word in addition to the c word, in addition to whatever other slurs they have. but i don't think we can understand that separate and apport from whether we are voting our interests or not. and far too often, the relationship between patriarchy and gender and racism come together. >> and that explains why white women would be more comfortable voting for hillary clinton than kamala harris. we, kelly's evolution on this galling, but in eight years she finds herself on a stage in pennsylvania in the closing days of the campaign, not only endorsing him, but endorsing the kind of masculinity that he and the maga movement represent.

and white women followed her lead. do you have a thesis on how and why that has happened? >> well, i mean, white women as a majority have voted for republicans in all but two election, presidential elections in the last, you know, 75 years or so. the hope was that they would have seen what happened in the trump administration. that they would come to kamala harris' side and support her because of all the promises she made to support women. clearly white women are a part of the systemic patriarchy in this country. and they hope, some of them, many of them, hope they'll benefit from it, right? as mya said, though, women are not a monolith. we're divided by education and marital status and religion. the one silver lining, there wasn't much, but the one silver lining was that one of the three groups that out performed for kamala harris as opposed to joe biden, were college educated white women. >> yeah. >> unfortunately there are not

enough of them to swing an election, but i think this has to be a very real conversation that we have about how we change the hearts and minds of these non-college educated white women so they'll vote the right way in the future. the other thing i want to say is it's really disheartening to hear people saying this is a reason or the lesson from this election is we can't have a woman at the top of the ticket. that in itself is misogyny and racism, and it's very unfair to kamala harris because her campaign was almost flawless. and it should prove actually the opposite. we need more women running, not fewer. >> i want to, like, just for a moment talk about this loss of allyship in a really desperate time that not only were white, non-college educated women voting for trump and against harris, but they were voting against the interest of their black and brown sisters in parts of the country where their lives are in danger whether it's because of health care deserts, abortion

deserts, or a number of other factors. it's a phenomenon that happens increasingly as women get married. the polite of black and brown women in the country extends well past the fortunes of kamala harris, and you're quoted in an important piece in the new york times. you said not only have black women always been on the menu, but they've been eating us for generations. this deepened and been given significantly more permission. how should people of color, women of color, women, how should we think about this moment, and what lessons would be drawn from it given how i think demoralizing it is in the cause of both equity and equality, and just justice? >> you know, the thing about black women. >> yes, please, tell me, mya. >> and shannon knows this well

too and is an incredible ally. black women show up all the time for what's right for people, for families, for communities. black women showed up for women's suffrage when we knew we would still have to fight for our own if white women won that suffrage. we still showed up. it is a pattern of history, and we're going to keep showing up. but i think this is the point. we keep trying to model that we're all in this together. >> yeah. >> that, you know, if we don't bleed out in a parking lot, you're going to bleed out in a parking lot. if we can't take care of our children, you can't take care of your children. except we're more often in the category of worrying whether or not our children will actually survive. worrying if we'll survive pregnancy. but no matter what our differences, at the end of the day, we are constantly working on coalition. >> yeah. >> constantly. and i think the issue here is,

and shannon said it so well, it's not whether or not women should be at the top of the ticket, it's weren't we're ensuring women are educated. and one of the things that's happening in the dialogue now is, education is getting to have a bad word like elitism. well, there's nothing elitist about saying you shouldn't have to rely on your grandparents to take care of your children. you should be able to retire and know you'll be okay. we should know if the cost of sales tax goes up, it will harm us all, and whether our kids learn history will be good or bad because it's based on whether we're learning it or it's barred from us. so at the end of the day, this is all about the same thing it's always been about. we have to find each other. and women have to find each other. and it is women who are going to solve the problem. >> it always is. much respect to the men trying to solve the problem out

there. mya and shannon, please come back, we have so many more questions for you. thank you both for your time and thoughts in this moment of great big questions. still to come this evening, rudy giuliani is the latest trump ally to face potentially severe punishment for actions he took on trump's behalf, and there's not much donald trump can do about it. the same goes for some of trump's own legal entanglements where he too may soon have to pay the piper. that's coming up next. respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. arexvy does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients. those with weakened immune systems may have a lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects are injection site pain, fatigue, muscle pain, headache and joint pain. arexvy is number one in rsv vaccine shots. rsv? make it arexvy.

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the reality is that this case is obviously a political vendetta. it's just the mere fact it is $145 million judgment? i'm very, very disappointed that this judge doesn't take seriously how ridiculous the judgment is. >> if rudy giuliani sounds a little rattled there, it's because today a federal judge threatened to hold him in contempt of court for squirreling away assets he has been ordered to turn over to ruby freeman and shea moss, the election workers he defamed. he has yet to share the where abouts of his worldly possessions and driving around palm beach election day in the vintage mercedes convertible he owns to freeman and moss. he has not only lost his

ability to practice law in new york and washington dc, he now stands to lose his freedom. as for the guy on whose behalf rudy giuliani has incurred all these punishment, it is unclear if he will pay any price at all. lisa joins me now. let's dig into the absolute absurdity t farce that is rudy giuliani hiding valuable asset to avoid having to give them to freeman and moss. is he going to be held in contempt of court? >> if he doesn't turn over a list of what he has and how to transfer them to the lawyers by monday, he will be held in contempt of court. you and i were talking during the break about the fact he was already supposed to turn over these assets to them last week. he had seven day to do so. he didn't comply with that. and in between, the ladies' lawyers went to the apartment, opened up the key, the

apartment, opened up the key and found it had been denuded of all the valuables that they were, that he was supposed to turn over. and they were expecting to find their end. between that and what you saw of rudy giuliani driving up to trump's polling place in his vintage 1980 mercedes that once belonged to lauren bacall, you should not countenance this any more. >> the flouting of the court and the agreement to me suggests that rudy believes he can be saved somehow. that the law doesn't apply to him. but this is a civil case. >> it's a civil case where he owes $146 million with interest building and if rudy giuliani could not get donald trump to pay him a $2 million claim for his legal services during the 2020 election, post period, i don't think donald trump will walk in and save the day and

pay this judgment for him. and short of that alex, there is nothing that would get rid of this. you cannot disappear civil liabilities by being president. you can't get rid of civil cases and you can't get rid of state criminal ones either. >> can we talk a little bit about civil cases as they pertain to donald trump? because he is still on the hook for $450 million in civil fines for his business fraud case in new york. what is happening there? >> that case is on afeel. appeal. he had to post a bond to about $175 million. and not the full totality of that 400 plus million dollars judgment. if he loses, similarly, donald trump will owe the state of new york 450 plus million dollars in that judgment. not so say anything of the e. jean carroll verdicts. it is possible he could win the

appeals. i don't want to discount that. but if the judgments are all upheld, we are talking about a universe in which donald trump owns more than half a billion dollars to two women alone. >> wow. i mean, he also has a deliberation happening right now. judge juan merchan has given himself until november 12th to determine whether or not to toss the case, how much do you think that affects his deliberations? >> not with respect to the conviction itself. it weighs much more heavily on him if he sustains the verdict with respect to the sentencing. we can expect to see an application of some sort by donald trump's lawyers asking him to either postpone the sentencing or never hold it because it would raise constitutional concerns to

sentence the president-elect. when the applications comes, what is the manhattan da going to do? is he going to agree the sentence should be held in abeyance during his presidency? you can put a four year pause on it. on the sentencing. or you could just agree he doesn't need to be sentenced at all as long as the conviction holds. my guess is that the team want to be vindicated with respect to the actual conviction. whether or not trump is sentenced may mean less to them. >> well, we are in terra incognito. >> oh are we. >> you are our guide through all of it. >> thank you. that is our show for this evening. now it is time for the last word with the great lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening alex. i heard your discussion earlier about all of the racism. the personal racism directed at kamala harris as a candidate. it is fascinating to listen to all of