and housing. they won affordable health care. these ads were an attempt to distract from the fact that trump will implement 20% sales tax on american workers and current regulations of put workers at risk. he is going to decrease taxes on the wealthiest in the country and continue to/critical benefits that americans rely on. these ads, i think we are going to have a long conversation about why this election turned out the way it did, but as we were talking earlier in the program, it's not a good time to be a party in power across practically every liberal democracy, around the world. these ads were, i think, a separate issue entirely. entire. what i was hear from undecided voters when i was talking to them was they felt like the economy was better under donald trump and that we survived four years. and obviously i disagree with

that perspective, but that seemed to be driving people. >> congresswoman elect sarah mcbride you'll be going for orientation soon. thank you very much. that is "all in." alex wagner tonight starts right now. >> the battle for the house continues. 27 seats remain uncalled right now. in the senate republicans won control with 52 seats so far. that's less than ideal balance of power for democrats looking to play defense against an incoming trump administration, but we have been here before. in 2016 trump didn't just win the white house, republicans won overwhelming control of the house and a 52-seat majority in the senate. but even in those circumstances, democrats still managed to check

trump's power. you might remember that during trump's first campaign for the white house, this was one of his key promises. >> we're going to deliver real change that once again puts america first. that begins with immediately repealing and replacing the disaster known as obamacare. >> trump had the white house, a majority in the house, and a majority in the senate. but, still, when push came to shove, trump could not kill obamacare. he managed to get the bill -- a bill through the house. but when that bill got to senate, even republican senators thought it was too extreme, so they wrote their own bill instead, and even then the republican controlled senate could not pass that bill, which, again, was written by republican

senators. you probably remember how that all went down because it was very, very dramatic. it was the end of july, 2017. republican senator susan collins and lisa murkowski had crossed the aisle to vote with democrats against the bill. republicans only needed one final vote to get a 50-50 tie and vice president kamala harris mike pence was eagerly standing by to cast that tie breaking vote to kill the affordable care act, only to have senator john mccain stun both republicans and the nation with his vote at 1:30 in the morning. moderate republicans joining with democrats in the senate saved the health care of what at the time was an estimated 15 million americans, a number that has, by the way, risen to 50 million. but stating obvious, senator

john mccain isn't in the senate eanymore and neither are jeff make and mitt romney. season collins and lisa murkowski are still there, but those two women alone couldn't serve as a guardrail. so the question now is the guardrail lost or might there be not completely bonkers somewhere in the upper chamber? has donald trump shifted the party so far right the people we used to think of as conservative republicans might actually become party moderates in a second trump administration? remember, if you will, at one point in time mitt romney is the republican nominee for president and now mitt romney is so centrist he's effectively all but left the republican party. thing have really changed in

themaa years. is there anyone else out there who might reveal themselves to be actually interested in a functioning government? remember james langford, the bipartisan senator or texas senator john cornyn, who negotiated the most significant gun safety bill in a generation over the protests of many in his party which was then passed into law by president biden. even someone like thom tillis that would have enshrined marriage equality into law and would have resulted in him being formally censored by his state's own republican party. i know this is a long shot. but immigration and guns and lgbtq rights sometimes -- varrarely, but sometimes they

move even the most hardened conservatives into action. and if there is even a chance that a few republicans might be convinced to act on these issues, what can and should democrats in the upper chamber do to help create a senate guardrail against the next four years of a trump agenda? joining us now the democratic senator senator from arizona, amy klobuchar, who may i say re-elected to a fourth term on tuesday. senator klobuchar, congratulations on re-election, and thank you for being here tonight. first, am i wish casting here? i mean, i know i'm sort of wish casting, but is it futile to hope that the overturn window has shifted so far to the right that people like cornyn and langford and tillis might somehow be convinced to act as some kind of boulework against the most insane elements of a trump agenda?

>> first of all, alex, i think we all know we've been through a lot this week. and watching kamala harris give that speech and the tears of these young people watching, it's been a hard thing. but a lot of us now can't dwell on that. we have to move forward. of course that means a peaceful transfer of power as the vice president explained, but it also means finding moments to get things done in people's lives. the democrats say s hey we're okay, some of us won, that is not good enough. we want to be methodical at looking at this and not gist saying, hey, someone said this on tv, with all due respect, and we want to look at what exactly the facts are. but my gut check is this economic, people feeling like things are swirling out of

control, whether it's technology. sometimes it means standing our ground against crazy policies that are going to make things worse or tax cuts for billionaires, but it may also mean finding moments of common ground. you just pointed jun mccain in that moment he actually whispered to me ahead of time what he was going to do. i'll never forget that. and he stood up since susan collins and lisa murkowski. we've seen people stand up on the republican side here and there. i don't think it's going to be a bulwark. let me be clear, i'm not naive about this in any way against some of the really bad things contained in project 2025 or some of the nominees we're going to have to stand up against. but i do think you have to find those moments of common ground because basically messaged received from the american people. they want us to get things done, not talk about bills from the

past, not talk about things that happen that somehow aren't relevant to their lives. they people to stand with them. >> i'm interested in what you're saying here about the message received because obviously democrats are going to look for republicans who may want to move a few paces towards the center. it sounds like the mood among democrats is it is incumbent upon us to look for and seek common ground, that is not about a wagon circling at this hour, but looking across the aisle to say, okay, the american public said it loud and clear, we need to find a way to get along here. is that what you're saying? >> i'm saying we have to find those moments, and it may not be with donald trump all the time. it may be as you explained, remember he said he wanted to appeal the affordable care act, but we reached out to general public, we made the case. we got the word out whether it was on social media or on tv, we got it out there.

republicans came with usch they looked at the facts, looked where their constituents where, and stood up against it regardless of what donald trump said. i think some of that will be going on. the other piece of this will be finding any common ground we can to actually pass laws, but there will be -- and i want to emphasize this, we're going to have to stand our ground. and with the way the senate rules were, we're going to have to do that. and also get a whole bunch done in the next few weeks including a whole number of judicial nominees that have been awaiting action. to me it's the short-term get that done, peaceful transition of power, and then i'm chairing the inauguration. no matter who wins, that was my job. >> that's the short straw. i think that's officially known as the shortest straw in washington. >> there you go, my friend. but then you head into this moment where we can't just be blind to what just happened in this election. we have to look at what people really need, child care costs,

housing, see if there's some common ground with some of the republicans that could actually percolate something on the bills that expands housing and from rural areas to suburban to the urban areas. the issue of prescription drugs, that was my bill, and it was one of the more popular things that got done in the last few years. and we have those ten drugs that this administration, the biden administration put out there, finally got something done. guess what? their next 15 drugs are next year. the next 15 drugs are after that. so i will be pushing this new administration to make sure that they negotiate those prices with the pharmaceutical companies and we keep bringing the cost of drugs down. so we're going to have different rules depending on what the issue is or what's up there, but we just cannot say, well, this just happened in other countries, so there you go. we have to actually have a strategy for each and

every thing. of course there's going to be changes. i know a lot of my colleagues in a lot of these battleground states have done the same, and we need to keep going with that because we just can't keep looking back. we have to move forward. >> you draw a distinction between senate republicans and donald trump, and i think the american voters do, too, because senate republican candidates did worse than donald trump include in your race where there's the largest gap. i think royce white, your republican opponent got 45% of the vote, donald trump got almost 47 points. you also did better than kamala harris, but the notion here is people are looking at senate candidates differently than they look at the top of ticket. that seems like potentially good news here, if the republic is not rewarding extreme candidates, hopefully that means their expectations are for the senate to be a more deliberate

chamber, that crazy people don't belong there, in other words. >> right, they want checks. and again, while we had some tremendous losses and like two of my best friends in the senate, john tester, sherrod brown, we sit together in the same row. and i think one of the things we need to do, by the way, in our party and the senate not just talk to the people who won, talk to the people who lost and get their ideas of the handrails against us and of course the people we represent. one of the things i have found to be helpful for me is i go where not just where it's comfortable but where it's uncomfortable. i get a lot of stuff from people who said i didn't vote for you but will you do this for me and get a lot of idea. i think we're going to have to the idea the people -- and i don't see anyone on the democratic side that are like this. but for people above the voters

and they don't know they're saying or doing, a bunch of them live in areas they can't find child care but they have to go to work. half of them have hospitals where there's not employees so they work double shift on double shift. you have police agencies and police officers that are understaffed. we have to get the help as well as making it easier to get the one or two year degrees sometimes for those jobs. i just think there's a whole bunch of things we can do for which there's republican support to get to where we need to go. i want to make clear i'm not a palliana, i lived through the donald trump era. we were able to successfully to join with some republicans in stopping some of these nominees, but i just don't think that can define our party or the work that we do going forward. we must be bigger than that, and i know a whole lot of democrats

in the house and senate agree with me. >> yeah. well, your tenacity and going into difficult situations and talking to people whose views differ from your own, extends to your chairmanship of the inauguration. senator amy klobuchar from minnesota, doing the tough lift, thank you for your time. >> doing the work. >> thank you for your perspective. really appreciate it. really appreciate it. >> okay, thank you. now, that we have gone through the situation in the senate, what happens in the house in the chances for a democratic ticket to take over in the lower chamber, what are they? and how could republicans even govern if they manage to hang onto the majority that is next. and how once the leader of free world won his way back to office by championing sexism loud and proud. we're going to get into that and why so many white women voted for him anyway. e women voted for him anyway thinking? i'm thinking...

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if you can remember all the way back to donald trump's first impeachment, you might remember these guys, alexander and eugene vindman, twin brothers, both army veterans, both brothers from ukraine who served on the national security council. twins. alexander and eugene vindman

were the first to raise concerns about trump's efforts to pressure ukrainian president zelenskyy for dirt on joe biden. after trump's impeachment both brothers were unceremoniously fired by donald trump. tonight nbc news can project uyean vindman has won a very tight race to be the next senator from eugene's district. despite donald trump's sizable victory. at this hour republicans are still seven seats shy of the 218 seats they need for a majority. even if they eke a small majority, house speaker mike johnson will face the same problem republicans have faced the last two years, an ungovernable house republican conference where any one member has the power to throw everything into chaos. joining me now a man who knows chaos very well, brendon buck.

here's the thing, i -- first of all, do you think there's any reason to believe the raucous house conference becomes any less raucous if there's a republican in the white house? do you think the pattern we've seen play out over and over again the last couple of years changes? >> donald trump has a bit more sway in keeping them -- >> in line? >> more than mike johnson does for sure. but i think the important distinction you're hinting at this majority is going to be significantly smaller than when donald trump was first president. eight years ago me and paul ryan met with donald trump trying to get him to understand this is what we're going to do here, and he was basically saying you go figure that part out, i trust you to be in charge of my legislative agenda. i don't think that's going to happen this time. he's not going to hand this over. he's calling the shots. however, we had a 20-seat

majority back then and still failed on health care because we didn't have the votes. they can't really get anything on their own with a two or four-seat majority they have now. i don't know why they're going to do even bigger things. now you're talking about big things and you have almost no margin for error. >> and they have a new rule any one member can force to vacate, to oust the speaker. on the one hand donald trump would like stability in the house. on the other hand, trump loves people getting fired, let's fire them. do you think that rule changes? >> i can't imagine that changes because other members will think that's their accountability for the speaker to hold him in line. >> it's a door in the seat. >> back then it was like freedom caucus guys giving us problems and donald trump was trying to

convince them and he couldn't. nobody is going to stand up to donald trump in the house. the problem is there aren't a whole lot of moderates either. this is a very uniform congress conference. maybe it's not a problem for them. maybe the house has really been remade in his image and there aren't a lot of independent types. the adam kinzingers and paul ryans are no longer around. >> you lose the majority, hakeem jeffries becomes speaker of the house. republicans have gained a net of two seats so far, but democrats are ahead in at least one republican seat that hasn't been called. hakeem jeffries says the house is in play. even if it goes to republicans, it's going to be incredibly narrow, and i wonder if that tells you anything in a moment where donald trump gets re-elected resoundingly, but the house is not given over to rerepublicans resoundingly, what you read of that disparity.

>> any new president in a congressional majority are going to say they have a mandate and they're not going to be interested in any bipartisanship. >> yeah. i would never suggest that. >> i know the culture of that conference well enough. as senator klobuchar was talking about let's figure out things you can work on. >> the senate is a different animal, too. >> even if they have the votes for it is going to say we don't want you to bring that up on the floor. we just got elected to a majority, donald trump is our president. we were given a mandate to do conservative things and that's going to be the entire mind-set of the entire conference. >> well, right, for at least two years. knowing they could be ousted again if it's a one-seat majority for 2022, how hard core they want to get. >> i don't know exactly what the house republican conference agenda is other than the tax bill, preserving the tax law of

course that's going to be the top priority. the things donald trump says he wants to do are postally things he can do himself, tariffs. he's going to need resources. that's where the rub is going to be, funding the government, increasing the debt limit. those are places republicans have run into a wall and had democrats bail them out. there's a government funding deadline at the end of this year. they're probably going to extend it into next year. reality is going to catch up to them. they're not going to pass on their own. they're going to need democrats. >> say it again, they're going to need who? >> they're going to come to hakeem jeffries and say i need your help to pass government funding. that's the same thing that got kevin mccarthy kicked out is needing to work with democrats on government. >> it's great to see you.

thank you for offering your wisdom on all of this. still ahead donald trump ran against the first black woman to run the ticket in a political party by targeting her with vulgar, violent sexism. white men voted for him but so did white women. why exactly? that's next. e women. why exactly? that's next.

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for 107 days we watched a presidential race between one candidate who might have been america's first female president and another who will now be america's first felon president. now, during those 107 days kamala harris didn't even really mention her gender, but donald trump and his surrogates sure did. this was a real ad taken out by billionaire elon musk's super-pac. >> kamala harris is a "c" word, you heard that right, a big old "c" word. >> according to the ad the "c" word meant communist and, you know, not the actual "c" word. but you would be forgiven for believing that if you caught any of trump's campaign rallies. >> she's a fake, she's a fraud, she's a pretender. her and her pump handlers will destroy our country. >> she never worked there, but i did a little bit.

this place is amazing. she's a very low iq individual. she's dumb as a rock, and you can't have that. we can't you're [ bleep ] a vice president. the worst, you're the worst vice president. kamala, you're fired. get the hell out of here. you're fired. >> and then there were the threats of violence directed at vice president harris. >> i know iron mike and he's a great guy, mike tyson. mike emphasis been through a lot but he can fight. let meal tell you, that guy can fight. but can you imagine mike, mike

in the ring with kamala. so i'm looking at her, i think they'll walk all over her. she'll be so easy for them. she'll be like a play toy. they'll look at her and say we can't believe we got so lucky. >> she'll be paralyzed in the situation room while the generalvise their way with her. >> the trump 2024 misogyny was not a new phenomenon. it was a big part of his misogyny story. >> you've called women you don't like fat pigs, dogs, slobs, and disgusting animals. >> only rosy o'donnell. >> no it wasn't. >> you might remember how trump reacted to that question from fox's megan kelly the very next day. >> you could see there was blood coming out of her eyes, blood coming out of her wherever. >> eight years later in the time weeks of his 2024 campaign,

trump was confronting the possibility that women might come out and vote against him in significant numbers. and so on the eve of this election, trump recruited a familiar face to help him out. >> he will be a protector of women, and it's why i'm voting for him. what i don't want, what i don't think you want is the left's version of masculinity. i'm not into their version of masculinity or new masculinity. i prefer the old version, all of you and i prefer a president who understands how to be strong and how to fight. >> more women voted for donald trump in 2024 than 2020. white women, in particular, voted 53% for donald trump. i'm going to talk about how that happened coming up next with shannon watts, the organizer of white women answer the call.

and maya wily, stay with us. a ws

so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. guess what? guys win again, okay? men win again. hey [ bleep ], we control your bodies. there will never be a female president ever. it's over. glass ceiling, dude it's a ceiling made of [ bleep ] bricks. you will never break it. your stupid face keeps hitting

the brick ceiling. we will keep you down forever. you will never control your own bodies. >> that is how at least some male supporters are celebrating his win by continuing the degrading and threatening behavior that was a hallmark of the trump campaign. the question is what about the women who voted for donald trump? joining me now is maya wily and shannon watts, founder and organizer of white women answer the call. maya and shannon, thank you both for being here. a few moments ago we were talking about the numbers here of white # women who voted for donald trump. and the reality is that more women voted for -- first of all, white women voted for donald trump in similar numbers to previous election cycles before even the most threatening and misogynist and violently sexist behavior and rhetoric came out of his mouth, though there was plenty in 2016 and 2020. but also women overall voted in

greater numbers for hillary clinton than kamala harris. do you have a theory why that might be? >> first of all, let's say this, women are not a monolith. black women came out in droves for kamala harris, came out in droves for hillary clinton, although there were some places in which black voters did not come out to vote enough in the first place. those are different issues. and by the way, when all the focus was on black women and what are black men going to do, and the rest of us were sitting here going black men typically outvote white women for the candidate that has and shares more interests with women, and there is less of a gender gap between black men and black women than any other racial group. it's a super important point because the reality of how complicated gender is in these races are that a lot of that misogyny for black women was

also about race, was also about understanding, you know, we're the ones -- remember that halloween parade in pennsylvania in the town where firefighters decided it was fine to have a grown man dressed as donald trump dragging a grown woman dressed as kamala harris in chains behind him. that was race and gender. i think the one thing that we have known and it is has been true for a very long time in our voting history is that there are white women who vote their ideology, and that includes their gender, and there are white women who do not. the white women who do not are voting their race as opposed to their gender, and we are seeing that in this election cycle as well. that means we should not put all women in a single category. >> sure. >> cites a more complex story, but at the end of the day to see any of these images or hear any of this language -- and you didn't even play all of it.

you didn't even play the one where trump started to say the "b" word and then got the entire crowd right before the election to call the sitting vice president of the united states the "b" word in addition to the "c" word, in addition to whatever other slurs they have. but i don't think we can understand that separate and apart from whether we are voting our interests or not. and far too often the relationship between patriarchy and gender, racism come together and we see these differences. >> well, and that explains why white women would be more marginally comfortable voting for hillary clinton than kamala harris. i found the evolution on this galling but also instructive. in eight years she finds herself on a stage in pennsylvania in the closing days of the campaign

not only endorsing him but endorsing the kind of masculinity he and the maga movement represent, and white women followed her lead. do you have a thesis on how and why that happened? >> look, white women as a majority have voted for republicans in all but two presidential elections, you know, in the last 75 years or so. the hope was that they would have seen what happened in the trump administration, that they would come to kamala harris' side and support her because of all the promises she made to support women. clearly white women are part of the systemic patriarchy in this country, and they hope -- some of them, many of them hope they will benefit from it, right? as maya said, right, white women are not a monolith. we're divided by education and marital status and religion. the one silver lining -- and

there wasn't much but the one silver lining one of the three groups that outperformed for president joe biden were college white educated women. i think this has to be a very real conversation that we have about how we change the hearts and minds of these non-college educated white women so that they will vote the right way in the future. the other thing i want to say is it's really disheartening to hear people saying this is somehow a reason -- or the lesson from this election is that we can't have a woman at the top of the ticket. you know, that in itself is misogyny and racism, and it's very unfair to kamala harris because her campaign was almost flawless, and it should prove actually the opposite. we need more women running, not fewer. >> i want to just like for a moment talk about this loss of allyship in a really desperate time, that not only were white non-college educated women voting for trump and against harris, they were also voting

against the interests of their black and brown sisters in parts of the country where their lives are in danger. but whether because of health care deserts, abortion deserts or any number of factors. it's a phenomenon that happens increasingly as women get married. i wonder, you know, the plight of black and brown women in this country extends well past the fortunes of kamala harris. you're quoted in a really important piece in "the new york times," and i'll read you your quote back. not only have black women always been on the menu, but they have been eating us, and it's been happening for generations. and what this represents for black women right now is it has deepened and been given significant permission. how shall we think about this moment and what lessons should be drawn from it given how i think demoralizing it is in the cause of both equity and equality and just justice?

>> the thing about black women -- >> yes, please, tell me, maya. >> and shannon knows this too and is an incredible ally. black women show up all the time for what's right for people, for families, for communities. black women showed up for women suffrage when we knew we would still have to fight for our own if white women won that suffrage. we still showed up. this is a -- it is a pattern of history, and we're going to keep showing up. but i think this is the point. we keep trying to model that we're all in this together. >> yeah. >> that, you know, if we don't bleed out in a parking lot, you're going to bleed out in a parking lot. if we can't take of our children, you can't take care of your children. accept we're more often in a category of worrying about whether our children are actually going to survive, worrying about if we're going to survive preg faens. but no matter what our

differences, at the end of the day we are constantly working on coalition. constantly. and i think the issue here is, and shannon said it so well, it's not whether or not women should be at the top of the ticket. it's whether or not we're ensuring women are educated. and one of the things that's happening in the dialogue now is education is getting to have a bad word like elitism. there's nothing elitist about saying you shouldn't have to rely on your grandparents to take care of your children. you should be able to retire and know you'll be okay. you should -- we should know that if the cost of sales taxes go up, it's going to harm all of us and whether our kids are learning history is going to be good or bad because it's going to be based on whether we're learning it or whether it's being barred from us. and so at the end of the day this is all about the same thing, it's always been about. we have to find each other. >> yeah. >> and women have to find each

other. and it is women who are going to solve the problem. >> much respect to the men who are trying to solve the problem out there. maya wily and shannon watts, thank you both for your time and thoughts in this moment of great big questions. still to come this evening rudy giuliani is the latest trump ally to face potentially severe punishment for actions he took on trump's behalf, and there's not much donald trump can do about it. the same goes for some of trump's own legal entanglements where he too may soon have to pay the piper. our own legal correspondent lisa rubin is going to explain all of that coming up next. rubin is gof that coming up next.

the reality is that this case is obviously a political vendetta. just the mere fact it's a $145 million judgment, i'm very, very disappointed that this judge doesn't take seriously how ridiculous the judgment is. >> if rudy giuliani sounds a little rattled there it's because today a federal judge threatened to hold him in contempt of court for squirrelling away assets he's been ordered to turn over to ruby freeman and shea moss, the two georgia election workers he defamed after the 2020 election. now, their lawyer told the court that giuliani has yet to share the whereabouts of his worldly possessions while simultaneously flouting the court order by driving around palm beach on election day in the vintage

mercedes convertible that he owes to freeman and moss. giuliani has not only lost his ability to practice law in new york in washington, d.c. as well as ownership of his new york city home, he now also stands to lose his freedom. as for the guy on behalf giuliani has incurred all these punishments, it is an open question whether he'll pay any price at all. joining me now is lisa rubin, msnbc legal correspondent. please let's dig into the absolute absurdity, the farce that is rudy giuliani hiding valuable assets to just avoid having to give them to ruby freeman and shay moss. is he going to be held in contempt of court? >> if he doesn't turn a list of what he has and how to actually transfer them to ruby freeman and shay moss' lawyers by monday, he will be held in contempt of court. he was already supposed to turn over these assets to them last week.

he had seven days to do so. he didn't comply with that. and in between the ladies' lawyers went to the apartment, opened up the key, the giuliani apartment here in new york city, opened up the key and found it been basically denuted of all the valuables that they were -- >> he was supposed to turn over. >> correct. and between that and they saw the same picture off rudy giuliani driving up to the polling place in his vintage 1980s mercedes they asked the court for a hearing immediately saying he's playing games. you should not countenance this anymore. >> the flouting of the court and the agreement to me suggests that believes he can be saved somehow, that the law doesn't apply to him here. but this is a civil case. >> it's the civil case where he owes $146 million with interest building. and if rudy giuliani could not get donald trump to pay him a $2

million claim for his legal services during the 2020 election post-period i don't think that donald trump is going to walk in and save the day and pay this judgment for him. and short of that, alex, there's nothing that would get rid of this. you cannot disappear civil liabilities by being president. you can't get rid of civil cases, and you can't get rid of state criminal ones either. >> can we talk a little bit about civil cases as they pertain to donald trump? because he is still on the hook for $450 million in civil fines for his business fraud case in new york. what is happening there? >> that case is on appeal. as it's on appeal, similarly, the interest is mounting. you and i will both remember several months ago he had to post a bond reduced by an appellate court to about $175 million and not the full totality of that 174 plus million judgment. if he loses similarly he'll owe letitia james and the state of

new york 200 plus million dollars. and not to say of the e. jean carroll verdict where he owes her. it's possible trump could win those appeals and i don't want to misjudge that. if those are uphold we're talking about a universe in which donald trump owes half a billion dollars to two women alone. >> he also has a deliberation happening right now. judge juan merchan, he's given himself until november 12th to determine whether or not is going to toss the case. how much do you think that affects merchan's deliberations? >> i don't think it affects his deliberations to the conviction itself. i think it weighs heavily on him with respect to the sentencing. i can expect and we can expect to see an application of donald trump's lawyers asking him to

postpone the sentencing or never hold it because it would be improper, it would raise constitutional concerns to sentence a president-elect. i think the big question on everybody's mind is when that application comes what is manhattan d.a. alvin bragg going to do? is he going to agree the sentence should be held in trump's four year, or do you just agree he doesn't need to be sentenced at all as long as the conviction holds. my guess is that alvin bragg's team wants to be vindicated with respect to the actual conviction. whether or not trump is actually sentenced may mean less to them. >> well, we're in terra incognito, as they say, lisa. you are our guide through all of it. that is our show for this evening. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. i know for some people it's a time for victory, to state the obvious. for others, a tim