back to the third hour of

the weekend. democrats have wasted no time in laying the groundwork to the incoming trump administration. in california governor gavin newsom says he will convene a special section of the legislature explicitly intended to safeguard california values and fundamental rights in the face of an incoming trump administration. in illinois j.b. pritzker introduced similar measures. >> to anyone who intends to come and take away the freedom and opportunity and dignity of those in illinois, i would remind you a happy warrior is still a warrior. you come for my people, you come through me. >> joining us now is two voices we have relied on throughout the election conservative lawyer george conway and new york university history professor ruth ben-ghiat. >> i would like to start with you ruth, you have been at this table with us over this past

election cycle and we have talked about this trumpism and what it looks like. trump is wanting to be a dictator on day one. america, here we are. i want to get your thoughts of what we can now say is emerge, the realized form of american fascism that the american people, by some 50+ percent decided yes, let's do that. >> this is i mean there is much to say. we are here now. donald trump was very skilled at conditioning americans to think that democracy and american democracy in particular was failing. he called america a garbage

can. he spread with his allies disinformation about the economy. said that america was failing. and praised foreign dictators so he could bolster his own idea of leadership, which is i alone can fix it. the slogans we have seen for years from him at up to this kind of strong men model of leadership. which depends on having an enemy and an internal enemy, the enemy within. so you can justify these kind of crackdowns on the vulnerable. these repressions. this is all very unfortunate but he did a good job of conditioning over and over. we have had eight years of this. americans, to see democracy is inferior to something else. that something else would be strong men ruled by him.

>> i am sorry but oh lord. george? just, george. george. >> i am with you. >> there is a threat people have been clear that donald trump presents a threat. there are a number of people that voted for him, the same number right about now as last time. the threat was real but they voted for him anyway. maybe some people didn't know about the threat. what is your take on this? regardless of the amount of information people had when they went to the ballot box, the things coming down the pipeline i believe that they chose, all of america did not choose that but we live in a representative democracy and this is how it works. well, you cast your ballot and if you win enough votes to get the electoral college and he won. there are millions of americans, 60+ million americans most 70 million americans that did not choose this but will have to live under this.

>> you have said a mouthful there. i think that the important thing to remember is, only a certain number of people matter to this election and were debating about how those people move back and forth and why. there is a lot of blame game going on postgame analysis attacking biden and attacking democrats for failing to win over latino voters. the disturbing thing about this election is not new. that sort of is maybe why i am not taking this as badly as people think. the problem was we always had 40 or 45% of whatever the number is of people who will vote for him anyway. they may tell you it is a price of eggs but if it were not that, it will be something else

some of those. i think there are voters were actual swing voters who have been negatively affected by inflation but let's set that aside. the 40 something percent who were going to be there no matter what. they consume an information diet that is self-selected in a way that is addictive. this is essentially, a bubble around 40% of the population at least. they do not things about what trump has done. never trumper says something crazy and starts to perform vulgar acts on the microphone they change the channel. the network changes the channel. our talking about fox news, yeah. >> i am struck by what we are seeing from democratic governors. the fact that they understand they will be one of the final lines of defense.

talk to me, we sort of all understand the problem. we understand the threat. what lines of defense are left? >> i think we will see a lot of courage and resourcefulness at the state level, at the local level. there is a long history in authoritarian context of this. it works best at the beginning of an authoritarian state or when it has become weak or fraying. there is a long history of bureaucratic resistance inside government, civil servants as well as, we have the tradition of states rights. this is a part of what these governors are talking about. it really exemplifies, this is a conflict of values. the harris walls campaign was

joy and hope and solidarity and equity. the trump fans campaign responded with crisis and despair and extreme polarization. we are going to see these mechanic values taken up as an encroaching executive. that is what authoritarianism is the executive the personal power of the leader wants to overwhelm everything. the judiciary, the media of local government. we will see this kind of front line of defense in the name of protecting the vulnerable. this will be very inspiring for americans. i'm really glad to see these people speaking out so strongly now. >> financial times put it very starkly. talking about the dems's

graveyard election loss. different policies different rhetoric deployed in different countries have all met similar fortunes suggest a large part of the tuesday american result was locked in regardless of the messenger for the message. the wide variety of places and people who swung toward trump also suggest an outcome that was more inevitable then contingent. the fact is, we are where we are to your point, it is because this is where people want us to be. >> they may not fully understand the implications but this is what they want. what he was saying appealed to them in some fashion whether or not they took it utterly. ruth is correct. he did a good job in persuading those people he is a solution to problems right wing media and he have exaggerated. >> what happens then when on january, the afternoon of

january 21st, the edict goes out from palace trump which will be the new name for the white house. that ice is now authorized to start rounding up heads of households because the idea that is newly reported we go after the heads of households this whole immigration thing is sticky politically. we will go after the heads of households and everybody else will self deport. there are strategies that will take formation. what happens when those strategies are implemented and people start going away? when the markets start responding because guess what? that entire group of workers who were going to be there to go out and service this community for whatever work they were doing is no longer there. how do people respond? >> the entire effort will be

chaotic. >> how do the people who want this respond to what happens when they get it? >> immigration is a tricky thing people who shouldn't be in the country should not be in the country. i get that but the way they are planning how to do this, there may be legal issues involved. in where people have been given due process. there may also be an excess of - legal issues that are raised. then we have to ask ourselves the question of is this the best way to stop the crisis of legal immigration - illegal immigration? removing these people should be part of enforcing the law for the sake of enforcing the law and not to make a spectacle for political gain. i think this effort will be kind of like the wall was.

the wall, people love to talk about the wall but when he actually had a republican congress he asked for a few million here and there for the wall which you cannot build a wall around this building. then, he went and did that for two years his own budget negotiators supported and republicans and anybody went home and he said i will veto it, somebody on fox news one of these propagandists on fox news started to push it saying why is there so little money for the wall? he shut down the government for two or three months. this is the kind of chaos, he cannot get this right. they will be not enough resources to do all the crazy things he wants to do we are just going to see a mess. i think one of the things we can do i'm sorry this is a long answer, is point out the mess, point out the incompetence.

i think we still need to talk about how he is crazy. because that has not changed. that did not change at 2:00 in the morning wednesday. >> i agree with almost everything george said except i don't know. i just, i actually think that this deportation effort which has real economic implications. that is what mark cuban is going around the country talking about. the effects of this deportation agenda on businesses, restaurants, so on and so forth. i think this is one of the things that can actually do. not just people that across the border that came in that are not documented across the border in a way not the point of entry they are talking about people with temporary protected status. events in interview after interview say that is not something we recognize as a legal policy. who is to say, they might mess around me like you know what she is an immigrant we are going to take her citizenship. this is what they are talking

about doing taking people's citizenship and have a supreme court that says they can do whatever they want. i am scared, somebody talk me off the ledge. >> how about we go to a commercial break and we will talk about it on the other side. we will continue this conversation on the other side of the break. you were watching the weekend. . . enjoy 40 days of freshness, your way. ♪ lalalalala ♪

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to we all know trump's campaign was filled with talks about retribution and now that he is headed back to the white house in b.c. new reports that some of trump's allies are setting the stage for investigations against from's legal adversaries like new york attorney general letitia james and special counsel jack smith. conservative lawyer mark davis who is under consideration for attorney general of these united states said this thursday. >> where does jack smith go after all of this? >> he should go to prison for

engaging in a criminal conspiracy against trump. actually he should go home because his service to the country is over but they want to put him in prison. george conway and ruth ben- ghiat are back with us. our steve bannon had this to say on election night. he was a trump eight just got out of jail back in the orbit this is what he said about what is about to happen. >> this entire phony thing is getting swept out, biden is getting swept out kamala harris is getting swept out msnbc is getting swept out the justice department getting swept out the fbi getting swept out. you people suck and now you're going to pay the price for trying to destroy this country. >> his behind just got out of jail so anyway. >> ruth, this is obviously this is authoritarianism right? we talked about this before.

when we use terms like authoritarianism, fascism, dictator. i think that people just do not generally wrap their head around what we are saying. should we not use the term? should we just explain the things, what is swept out? >> part of the problem is when we think about fascism, the fascist regimes for one-party states. there are one-party states in some of the trump admires like north korea and china, communist regimes. often that is not how it works anymore. however, and this is what i found in writing this book, strongmen. the same processes and procedures and syndromes, even though today you have multiparty systems become authoritarian. one of them is the strongmen has to feel safe by persecuting

his enemies. it is not enough, he is not a democrat, it is not enough to let jack smith just leave office. he has to be locked up because they will never feel safe until all of their enemies have been, he has exacted revenge on all of his enemies. authoritarians always go after the investigators. anybody who has the ability to live in a fact-based reality and to bring cases against people based on empirically verifiable facts and procedures so prosecutors, also journalists, investigative journalist, lawyers, judges. all of these people. historians, researchers. they always become targets. the state develops these mechanisms. investigations, show trials. we have had these for 100 years. in order to make these spectacles. talking before the break about

these kind of show we things. donald trump is a showman. you can see these spectacles, these counter investigations that are his way of exacting revenge and making entertainment out of it for the american people. >> this morning we had this headline from nbc about doj and the generate six cases the justice department to focus on the most egregious generate six cases in trump is inaugurated. donald trump said he would consider pardoning every capital writer. your sense of the conversations likely happening inside doj right now? >> i cannot imagine what the civil servants are thinking. the ones who have been there, and honestly the current political appointees will leave anyway. they must be horrified. you have to be wondering whether or not they are going to stay for this show. it is going to put, this will put ethical pressure on them. ethical and moral pressure on

them to you know, are they going to participate in what will certainly - it is like natural outcome is ruth points out. of the mentality of strongman and narcissistic psychopath who needs power they will seek revenge by whatever means they have so it will be really tough on people in the government. >> there are a couple of things that we sort of talked about relative to trump. and his desire to be a strongman. i want to play for you a mashup of him on fox news and the joe rogan experience about this concept of himself. >> that was the question they asked victor who is a very considered very strong they said he's a strongman sometimes you need a strongman he's a strongman. >> he said he called the

president - with an iron fist he's a brilliant guy with you like it or not and they go crazy. >> it does not mean he is not evil. not dangerous. >> actually, we have evil people in our country. >> what question is not about trump. it is not what the american people who just voted for him heard. when someone says they are praising being a strongman and oh, you need a strongman. then he says the operative words for me was he controls controls 1.4 million people with an iron fist. what do people here do you think that made them go, okay sure. >> sadly when we get into questions of psychology which george speaks about too.

many people would like to be relieved of the burden of choice. and when donald trump told evangelical christians my dear christians you won't have to vote anymore. he is also getting to that. they are not afraid of being relieved of that burden of choice and letting someone else make the decisions. often authoritarian personalities who are like the big boss at home or in the workplace. the bullies are the ones who are glad in the political ground to give up their agency. and their voice to somebody else. remember he said i am your voice i alone can fix it. this is reassuring. this is what i study over history over and over again around the world people discover that this brought

disaster upon the country. i've been trying to talk about outcomes of authoritarianism. that is why i wrote that book. the disastrous, chaotic tragedies that happen. this is what people heard the strongmen have to have a personality cult. the illusion of competency is important. that is why they will put their trust in him to solve the problems because they think he is competent. that is one of the biggest scams of all. >> it is like yes, i think that is a real explanation. >> i was having a discussion with somebody texting online. somewhat lovingly how trump turned this ethnic group and this ethnic group all these

micro explanations. i was like okay in november 1932, germans were facing hyperinflation. they were facing high unemployment. 30% and also had to contend with these excessive war reparations in the middle of a global depression. they had every reason to switch their votes. so what? >> i think part of what we are sensing is a fatigue. gearing up for four more years of this when it has never been more important to have the energy or have the resolve. simone is getting her caffeine directly i think soon we will have an i.v. to get it directly. tell us how people who do not want to sit on the sidelines as he comes to power yet again?

>> first it is really early and, we just got these results. the vote is still being counted in some races. we do not know about the house yet. we have to take a beat and take care of ourselves check in with our loved ones. i am glad you asked about this because i see the harris walls campaign as a kind of rehearsal for a pro democracy movement in our country we have not had before and we will really need. just because the democrats did not prevail and it is certainly not the outcome many of us wanted and it is scary does not mean all of the globalizing, the networks, the associations. all of the wisdom and experiences we learned through this campaign will go away. we carry them with dennis. when we are ready, when we are rested and have reflected we

can use that and hold upon that and call upon that. this was not a new thing. >> thank you for a very sobering and introspective conversation. much more ahead. much more ahead. speaker: who's coming in the driveway? speaker: dad. dad, we missed you. daddy, hi. speaker: goodness. my daughter is being treated for leukemia. [music playing] i hope that she lives a long, great, happy life

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deserves puffs indeed. no other mattress cradles your body and simultaneously supports your spine. memory foam doesn't come close. get your best sleep guaranteed. save up to $1,000 during our blackfriday sale. visit purple.com or a store near you. i would like to pick up where we left off on the democracy piece. i think for me, a big part of this now, i get where simone is coming from. >> they do not hear me say it. >> there is a level of so, we are going to do all of this organizing and all of these other things but then what? the question becomes on the then what, are you prepared to stress test what is about to

happen. to ruth's point do you throw democracy up against what this authoritarian president wants to do when they start moving people out and they start firing federal employees and shutting down agencies, stripping healthcare along with other rights and benefits. what is the democracy response to that? for me it will be the real interesting question if we are prepared to answer. a lot of folks right now basically have the attitude of when all of that starts happening do not call me. i tried to warn you. i tried to tell you we organized and we all stayed home. we did put stuff on the street and you ignored it. you talked smacked about the things i was trying to put in front of you to warn you about and now you are making me feel

like i was the wrong one for raising that stuff up. when they come for you i will be here watching. i do not know if that is the right response and i think that is what people have to figure out. >> i think that is what we were saying. we opened it up and i was kind of like i hear it was the same but a lot of people who are tired, not tired enough for the resistance this time. there is a woman's march happening january 18 in d.c. michael said why would they not do it after the inauguration. probably because he said he would call the military on those kinds of things. and that is the stress test maybe people meeting and organizing should figure that out. i just i personally just feel

like it is important to pick up the phone and see what people are and what is happening but for the people that say i do not want to participate in the resistance and whatever happens okay. i understand where they are. >> i would put one more thing on the table which they will ask, what becomes - they feel empowered by the mandate they feel they have been given by the american voters. they have an understanding that would be - the first trump administration as amateur hour but they learned a lot. they have had four years to prepare. when congress gets back reconciliation, the big question about deportation how will they find it? they have a plan for that they will ram funding through the

reconciliation package. once that is done, that is not easy to undo. the things they do at the beginning do not think it is okay when i'm ready to come back in six months we will fight the fight then. they will be far out ahead of folks who want to continue to see this country as a democracy. >> i will say okay the people that want to organize right now i think they should go ahead and do the organizing. do not wait for the rest of the parts of the coalition because they might not show up because some are just tired and done. d r when you can use 1 fire extinguisher. and to fight heartburn, why take 10 antacids throughout the day when you can take 1 prilosec. for easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. prilosec otc. one pill. 24 hours. zero heartburn.

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constitutional amendments to protect or restore portion of minutes passed and seven of the 10 states where they appeared in the ballots. in arizona and - maryland, montana, nevada, new york and colorado, past measures formally in training existing rights into their state's constitution. joining us now is missourians for freedom constitutional campaign manager she is a success story. >> you are success story this week you have been in the past i've been following your career and what it is you have been able to do it. help us understand what this means for people in missouri

and what it was you did in your organizing you found effective that work that can be transposed onto other efforts. >> that is very kind thank you i am happy to be with you. i am glad missouri for once can be a bright spot as we deal with the results of this historic election. in missouri, women in my state are living under a total abortion and with no exceptions. what we were able to do tuesday and frankly in the years leading up to this election was build a diverse coalition of democrats, republicans, independent voters and bring them together to support reproductive freedom. our state's band goes too far and is out of step with the values of the majority of missourians in the majority of americans. some of the strategies we used are really just going into those immunities. sometimes getting the strange bedfellows type coalitions.

working with faith leaders across the state. working with physicians across the state to make sure voters making sure - the missouri man actually is. i think continuing to understand and reach across the aisle to communicate with voters across the political spectrum using shared values is something we will have to do for the next two years, four years and into the future if we want to continue to protect these rights. >> what exactly did you all what was your messaging? what did you say? there are people that voted for this but voted for donald trump. people that voted for this but i checked the box for the republican attorney general. what was the messaging? >> that is a great question. i would say that when people are voting for whether it is someone to be the next president of the united states for their representative in the

u.s. senate, they are bringing a lot with them into the ballot box. they are thinking about a variety of issues and i think what is so great about these ballot measure campaigns as we can just focus on having voters feel about abortion rights and about the state of access where they live? the key messages were bringing home the devastating consequences of the ban making it clear with her that was coming from a physician or a woman in missouri who needed access to abortion and was denied that care who got access to abortion before the ban took effect and taking it clear this is not just an issue that affects a small percentage of the population especially as women who would not see themselves as someone who would need access to abortion care. this unpacks ability to get access to standard care for miscarriages and for doctors to treat pregnancy complications. a combination of telling the stories and using those first- person narratives to get voters

to see the consequences on an issue or they may feel conflicted, coupled that with this overarching message of personal freedom. we need to keep politicians out of our doctors offices. the government should not be making these personal, private medical decisions for you and your family and i think that is why we were successful frankly on a night where we saw results up and down the ballot that are not conducive with supporting abortion rights and access but in states like missouri the only way we can win is by building these broad coalitions. women in our state need relief. we need to act regardless of what is going on at the federal level. >> speaking of the federal level and what come next. this issue was played down and in many cases lied about by

republicans with respect to a national ban. the detroit free press an opinion piece writes this four republican men running for seats in the u.s. congress told us they would not vote for a national abortion ban. two of them won. i expect it will not be long until we find out whether eric and james's renaissance and abortion rights was sincere or the sort of thing a candidate says when he wants to win. this is reminiscent of's of our judiciary sitting before the u.s. senate being asked explicitly about abortion and referencing their loyalty and fealty to - and the status quo and the rightsare ready enshrined over this 50 year timeframe of abortion rights in this country. then, when given the moment, in the dobbs decision, throwing

all of that out. i suspect the same will be true here. that those members who came in saying, we are not touching this i will not vote for a national ban actually will. that will directly impact the worked - the work you just accomplished in your state. how do you look at that moment and what are some of the democracy oriented sort of challenges against that that you and others across the country can band together to prevent that from happening? >> that is a great question. we know there are a lot of potential threats from the next trump administration and from our republican controlled congress whether it is like you said folks walking into the chamber and passing national abortion ban. whether it is the fda possibly revoking approval of mr. for stone, the most common

medication used for medication abortion in this country. whether it is invoking the comstock act. there are a ton of threats potentially coming from the federal level. what was so important to us in missouri, women in my state are already living under the reality of a total abortion. for us, we know we need to act now, regardless of what is going on in washington, d.c. as we head into the next few years and we are thinking globally about the fight for abortion rights and access, we need to continue to hold legislators accountable to the promises they have made on the campaign trail. as you said, is that true? will these folks really sit here and not cave under the pressure to pass the national ban on abortion? i am very skeptical. i think we need to continue to hold elected officials accountable. we need to continue to do nice - organize in our communities.

honestly we need to find ways to support the structure that helps patients get the care they need particularly in these challenging circumstances. from the perspective of someone who does this work in the states, we know that we cannot make every decision based on what might happen in washington, d.c.. that is why we are still out here and will continue to do this work because something passed by the u.s. congress can later be overturned by the u.s. congress. whereas the things we are doing with these constitutional amendments is in training these protections in the state constitution so we can move and operate around the changes that might come over the next 10, 20, 50 years at the national double. i think there is work to be done to make sure that we are channeling this energy we have seen around these ballot measures into the next thing. the next thing for everyone might not be another ballot measure campaign. it will have to be

accountability work. it will have to be making sure people understand you cannot just go into the voting booth and vote for one of these ballot measures and vote for a politician who will take your rights away the next day. >> that is the point right there. thank you very much, we have a lot more to discuss. be sure to listen to the final episode of the have to win 2024 podcast. podcast. hi. i use febreze fade defy plug. and i use this. febreze has a microchip to control scent release so it smells first-day fresh for 50 days. 50 days!? and its refill reminder light means i'll never miss a day of freshness. ♪ lawmakers are trying to shut down planned parenthood. the health care of more than 2 million people is at stake. our right to basic reproductive health care is being stolen from us. planned parenthood believes everyone deserves health care.

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i'm trying to keep from crying. >> i am impressed she is here, honestly. honestly, we did not talk about this part but, obviously i can't in my former life i spent a long time in democratic politics. when there were usually, the people at the top were men and they were all white men and over the course of years it has changed. the men became people of color and women came into the room. i worked for the vice president. to watch her concede the election to someone who is not

nearly as qualified as her but someone whom millions of people voted for, it was like i felt like the sentiment in that new york times piece that you put up on the screen i felt that, it is like america, it kind of feels like a rejection in some sense but i think the positivity a couple blocks over, several other people did vote for her. millions of people voted for her but it still was not enough to watch not just on our network others if i am going to be honest, people the days after the election say it is time to stop putting up women and black people. i am like i need a minute. but i am happy to be here today. >> that last part is just stupid anyone out there saying that needs to check themselves because women and black and

brown people are the ones who have ascended in terms of our economy, politics culture et cetera. the biggest take away for me and i mentioned - i learned this very early on in my political career. they will always tell you what they want and need. the challenge and test for the institutional politics of our country is whether or not they listen. donald trump heard them. he heard them long before he got to 2015. and made his launch into politics. he used what he learned from those 30+ years of people out there feeling left the site going back to the clinton days. you heard the reference earlier to dlc maquettes - democrats. he heard them, they responded

to him so that is a check on the rest of us. >> that is a lot of racism in there as well. >> thank you i was just trying to honor the rats. >> i am not, that is included in the mix. >> just want to make sure we are all at the same page. >> even they have something they want to say about their personal economy. >> i guess we listened to the white supremacist. i'm not saying everybody who voted for donald trump is a white sperm assessed but i am saying whites of premises israel. we will be back tomorrow at 7:00 tomorrow morning. tomorrow, eric swalwell will be here, pat ryan won his race and congressman shomari figures. we will be here, see you later.

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