♪ ♪ >> we are late but nonetheless wishing you all a very good day from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome to "alex witt reports". we begin this hour with countdown to inauguration day, 71 days before president-elect donald trump takes over the white house. at this hour, even though two senate races remain on hold, two races are still too close to call for the house. democrats are hoping most of the 19 uncalled seats will go to their favor. several of those are in california. steve kornacki breaks down the democratic shift that surprise many democrats as part of his report for "meet the press". >> check this out. again, pre-trump versus now.

blacks are still overwhelmingly democratic but that is a 15 point shift. it used to be 87 points for the democrats, down to 72. what about this? we heard a lot about it this week, this is what the numbers look like. hispanic voters were 44% democratic, now basically a tossup constituency. asian americans of 32 points, a shift there. >> democratic surrogates are regrouping and retracing as they analyze the loss. >> i think some of this is a backlash to race, gender and identity politics but most people just keep about keeping food on their table and a roof

over their head. a lot of times they forget about that. they forget about, you know, the working class. >> from the sunday talk shows, more new reaction from trump surrogates to growing concerns over msnbc's retribution threats. >> donald trump has said this time and time again, success will be our retribution and success will be our benches. that is a direct line from donald trump, a beautiful sentiment. i do think success is unified. nothing will unite this country more than economic growth. >> we have several reporters ready to go over these new storylines on the day. first we goaded jake traylor near mar-a-lago in west palm beach, florida. jake, another welcome. last night donald trump said he would not ask his former opponent nikki haley nor his former staff member mike pompeo to be in his a ministration. what can you tell us about the transition? >> reporter: right, alex. the relationship would take donald trump in these two

associates as law. let's focus on nikki haley. it is the content just won a bit of a roller coaster. remember in 2016, it was nikki haley that endorse marco rubio against donald trump. she then joined his administration when trump went to the white house. she then ran against him over the last year in the republican primary. there was an extensive amount of months in between where she did not endorse them but when she did endorse him it was not a full throttled endorsement and she just does not agree with a lot of the things donald trump does and the way he lays. in the past few months there were republican strategists recommending that donald trump get nikki haley to come on the campaign trail and be with him. some of the voters she brought in, primarily suburban women in key swing states, that never took place. what is the why behind donald trump choosing to post on true social he would not be welcome in nikki haley to his administration. we spoke about it yesterday. trump and his transition team are locked in on having trump loyalists in this white house, nikki haley and mike pompeo have both been critical of donald trump over the last few years. haley has called trump unhitched.

mike pompeo has been critical of trump in the way he handled his legal was. trump and his transition team are dead set on getting people in his corner this time around in his corner through and through. looking at to the confirmation hearings to take place. on "meet the press", senator barrasso was on "meet the press" and asked what the confirmation process would look like and what donald trump would bring to the table. here is what he had to say. >> i expect the president to make bold decisions. we have to come up with actually 1200 different appointees who get conferred by the united states senate. the senate will be ready to look at every nominee makes. we will have hearings on whoever the president appoints as attorney general of the united states and we are looking forward to those discussions in those hearings. i look forward to moving quickly with the majority we have in the senate. >> reporter: asked for nikki haley, she said overnight, responding to what donald trump said, that she would not be part of is a ministration, she said she was thankful to have

served in the first administration and she wished success to donald trump and his administration in the future. for those two and their relationship, it was somewhat amicable and cordial departure, at least publicly, alex. >> new developments in the battle for congress. more than a dozen house races are still uncalled. republicans need to six more to take control. meanwhile, in the seneca arizona is too early to call and pennsylvania is too close to call. joining me from capitol hill is nbc's julie tsirkin. it is a lot of back-and-forth about the benefit -- pennsylvania senate race. >> reporter: so much back and forth. basically because one news outlet called the race for dave mccormick last week. that led to mccormick declaring victory saying even this morning on fox and futures saying he only won the race if only bob casey would concede. talking about the primary, of course, he lost to dr. oz in 2022. this is what mccormick had to say and we will talk about it on the other side. >> well, you know, the ap

called this recent number of days ago because mathematically, there is no path for senator casey to win. currently, i am up by 40 something thousand votes, a very significant margin. and ultimately, senator casey will have to decide when he is ready to acknowledge that. ♪ ♪ >> reporter: alex, i have been in close touch with both campaigns all day long. i can tell you that mccormick is up about .6, .7 percentage point. remember, .5 or lower triggers that recount. there is still about 100,000 provisional ballots left to count in that state. this is a state that does not start counting until the polls close on election day. some officials in philadelphia, election officials, nonpartisan post, they say it is likely the needle won't move too far when the ballots are counted, meaning it is probably likely that mccormick into winning this race but so far, and as casey's case has said, they will not concede until all the votes are counted and making sure all the constituents are her. and then you have expanding the margin in arizona leading kari lake as votes are still being

counted there. the latest batch of votes are more favorable for gallegos so perhaps we could see a final call in that race. as a reminder, nbc news has not called either these races, alex. >> looking at the numbers he picked up since yesterday, that is good. thank you for that. >> now we have senior political correspondent for the "wall street journal", good to see you, molly. what are we watching for as donald trump considers who will serve in his next administration you heard the talk about haley and pompeo. they are out. >> that's right. >> reporter: as much as that was about his personal relationships and his desire for loyalty, you know, it is also etiological in nature, right? when i saw the news that some of the announcement on i guess truth social that donald trump may, the first thing i thought was my conversation with don trump jr. and j.d. vance when they said they want

to keep the people they believe are neil com warmongers out of the next trump cabinet. we think about donald trump of 2016 who came into office with very little preparation and not knowing very much about the levels of government or the contours of the various divides within the republican party, this is a very different landscape, very different world we are in. he has a very specific vision for the types of republicans that he wants serving in his administration. i think we are going to see a much more pure, sort of magnified republican stance from his nominees. that is what we are watching for. if he take sides in the senate leadership race, is it to weigh in on the side of someone who is seen as antiestablishment in that way as he fills out national security posts, is he looking for opponents of the sort of old school, reaganesque, more harsh guess -- hawkish american viewpoint? that is positioned well for the

economy. is he positioning nontraditional thinkers who are willing to impose tariffs or will he put in a bunch of his wall street buddies like he did last time? >> what about homeland security chief? that person will oversee mass deportation plans, illegal immigration crackdowns he has promised on the campaign trail. what you think that leadership will look like and can we expect those proposals to be toned down once he gets into the oval office? >> i would be surprised if he tones anything down. i think there is a feeling this was something he ran on very explicitly, right? the idea of mass deportations

is not some project 20/25 conspiracy theory. it was on the signs of the convention and he mentioned it in every state. trump and the people around him feel like they have a clear mandate to implement this to the fullest extent he has promised. now how do they go about that? you know, is it done in a gradual or incremental way that could be less disruptive or do they try for shock and awe? we don't know until the program starts getting rolled out. to your point of it will depend a lot on who the personnel are in these agencies, in terms of do they try to implement this in a blunt force type of way or do they try to do it, you know, with respect for the status quo of the existing laws and norms? but that is a policy where are we surprised if it gets toned down at all? it is possible there is feedback from the business community that inspires a softening of some of these policies. he has been very clear about what it is he plans to do in this area. >> so an interesting character

has emerged from trump's first administration, roger stone. he was out with an article advising donald trump not to choose mike pompeo for his administration again because he said he promotes the deep state. he also advised against using nikki haley because she is a chameleon. and then, late yesterday, trump announces neither pompeo nor haley would serve in his cabinet. could roger stone have sway over the next president's policies? i am just curious if you have him or others you are watching for as an unofficial advisor? >> well, look, roger stone has been close to trump since long before he ever entered politics and someone, you know, who trump, um, went out of his way to help in his first administration. i think he will always be someone who, he will always have the president's ear. i don't know if he is responsible for directly inspiring those choices or if he is just someone who sort of has his finger on the pulse of the maga basin feels he can speak for them. i have not done my own reporting to know exactly how much influence he had on these reticular decisions. i would not be surprised to him

being someone trump continues to listen to. -- you said he would come in with the maga crew and he would fit into that group. he has an extreme voice and has voiced it many times, kamala there. let me ask you about who donald trump said he would appoint or the plans he has for day one. i am curious about how much he can really accomplish, let's say with executive action, on his first day in office. can you gauge that for us? >> the way i have been thinking about this, i do expect that he will immediate, immediately

reinstate the immigration executive orders that president biden immediately rescinded upon taking office and do everything he can through executive power to just close the border completely. again, this is something he has promised to do and something the president has a fair amount of latitude to do. i think deportations, as well, is something he could begin to put in motion on day one. tariffs are another thing that the president has wide latitude to impose without having to go to congress to get that done, that is another thing i expect he will put in motion immediately. i think, eliminating the traditional independence of the justice department, we are already seeing cases against trump get wound down but i would expect him to either fire or demand the resignation of the fbi director and clean house and appoint an attorney general that will make the federal law enforcement apparatus fully an instrument of his will, again, eliminating that traditional independence that has been there. on foreign policy, that is another area where the president has a relatively free hand. trump has many times promised he would end the war in ukraine before even taking office. his critics, of course, believe he will do that by giving what he wants to the extent he is

able to do that through negotiation but we will see how much progress he will make on that particular promise but the president does have a lot of latitude in the foreign-policy area. those are all things i would expect him to do without having to go to congress for assistance. >> one more quickly. do you expect him to pull out of the paris climate accord? he can do that, i think he has to give the u.n. one year notice to say we are out of there. -- absolutely. he did it last time and there is very little doubt he will do it again. >> molly ball, we will see you again. thanks. >> the new seeds of doubt growing about foreign policy in a double trump white house. back in 90 seconds. seconds. . qunol's high-absorption magnesium glycinate helps me get the full benefits of magnesium. qunol. the brand i trust.

president biden will have the opportunity within the next 70 days to make the case to the congress and to the incoming administration that the united states should not walk away from ukraine that walking away from ukraine means more instability in europe and ultimately, as the japanese prime minister said, if we walk away from ukraine in europe, the question about america's commitment to our allies in asia come in. our good friend from the cia

and an expert, can you tell us about the japanese prime minister and the alliance with america? >> sure. we are jumping into the unknown. we are not exactly sure about the trump doctrine commit there is one, what will be. he wants to govern this notion of strength but we don't know what he believes exactly. he has talked a lot on the campaign trail about ending the war in some fashion. one of the things that i think molly even addressed in the previous segment, we are really looking to see who his foreign- policy team will be. senator tom cotten and mike pompeo now will not in the mix. these are individuals who are sympathetic to discontinue assistance to ukraine. if you are in ukraine, you are worried. one thing you can see the ukrainians doing now, zelenskyy has certainly been front and center of this to play to trump's ego. you don't want ukraine to turn

into afghanistan. there was the call musk was on, which was a shocker, but zelenskyy afterwards appeared to be somewhat satisfied. what does this mean? we don't know. look to the national security team and, of course, you have to try to believe what trump said on the campaign trail. it is not a great time for you, there are a lot of unknowns . >> can you ask about the undercurrent on that aspect to the call for musk? it was described as being impromptu. apparently, elon musk walked in the way, donald trump had him on the phone and was like, look, he is here. it could've been more than braggadocio, look, the world's wealthiest man just walked into the room because of starlink and his history with ukraine. >> right. ukrainians have used starlink very successfully. elon musk has been all over the place on this but ukrainians do

need this. of course, musk was apparently on calls with the turkish leader and the prime minister of israel, not yahoo. there are a lot of other ramifications here. what does it mean for ukraine? are they going to whine this down? mike pompeo, whether you like him or not, really was pushing for a settlement in the essence that would perhaps see ukraine go into some type of european security architecture. i don't think that is in donald trump's thinking right now. ultimately, we will have to see if they want to freeze the lines. that means ukraine loses the east to russia and loses crimea and has no intent for nato type architecture. that is a real loss for ukraine and i think they will have those charges this was donald trump's afghanistan. that is how ukraine is trying to play it as we go. we will see. >> let me ask you about benjamin netanyahu, who really praised trump's reelection as

the greatest comeback in history. it has only been five days since he has been reelected. what is netanyahu hoping to get from donald trump? >> this is really interesting. there are searching celebrations on the israeli side that trump was reelected. remember, trump says he wants to end the war in gaza and lebanon. this is not the stipulation of netanyahu's allies on the extreme right. how do they kind of reconcile this? on top of this, what do you do about iran? once again, there is this notion, this theory that perhaps president trump will be tougher. certainly, on sanctions, but again, his platform is antiwar. he said no more war in the middle east. how does that reconcile with what they want, a joint israeli on the infrastructure. a lot of contradictions there. we just have to see. i think the israelis are premature in celebrating about

trump because, again, we don't know what he stands for. we just don't know. >> one more question for you. you >> decades at the cia. is there reason to be concerned about intel sharing between america and key allies? do you think some countries will be less inclined to share information with the trump administration? do you think foreign leaders will go into trump's second term, you know, keeping top of mind, experiences from his first term? >> alex, i do and i think it will be issue specific on counterterrorism, there will be continue sharing, there is no doubt about that. those are mutual issues between countries. for example, on russia, if you were, for example, the israeli intelligence service, would you share their intelligence?

donald trump has an affinity for patent. there's some question on that. that is not a good thing for america. i think for foreign intelligence needs to be considered on a case-by-case basis and look to see, in particular, who will be the next cia director, the next director of national intelligence, are they going to be very political? again, a lot of questions out there. >> marc polymeropoulos, that means you have to come back so we can keep asking them of you. thanks, my friend. >> stee kornacki breaks down demographics from tuesday you might not have already seen. n s j.p. morgan wealth management. ♪ it wasn't hard with cologuard®, ♪ ♪ i did it my way! ♪ colo-huh? ♪ cologuard! ♪ cologuard is for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. screen for colon cancer in your home, your way. ask your provider for, ♪ cologuard ♪ lawmakers are trying to shut down planned parenthood. the health care of more than 2 million people is at stake. our right to basic reproductive health care is being stolen from us. planned parenthood believes everyone deserves health care. it's a human right.

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democrats are rethinking their strategy as election data shows donald trump made gains in key demographics and in usually blue areas. steve kornacki broke it down this morning on "meet the press". >> big, blue states with very diverse populations. this new coalition that donald trump has assembled, he didn't win any of these but he made giant strides. california the biggest of all, a 20 point biden won four years ago, i'll look at harris, her home state.

new york, trump cutting the democratic margin and have. looked on the listing you can see it. blue-collar areas, cities, metro areas with large hispanic populations, that is where trump may be gains there. -- with me now is shaniqua mcclendon, vice president of political strategy. get media and former congressman from pennsylvania, connor lamb. good to see you both. black voters did overwhelmingly support harris although there was a gender gap, black women back terrace 91% but black man gave her 77% of the vote. bernie sanders and others have argued that democrats lost with less voters but then you reposted something on x saying , are black voters not the working class? how could the economic message reach us but failing to reach others? explain that. do you disagree with the premise it was the economy or was it the messaging that just didn't need -- reach what they needed to?

>> first and foremost, we have a really fractured media. a lot of vice president harris' messages ultimately did not make it to the people they needed to make it to. on this conversation about whether or not it was economic infighting or race and misogyny that played a role here, we need to understand that her economic outlook and where we are is really tight to our identity. there is no way you can separate those two things. i'm a black woman. if i am being sexually harassed at work, that means it is hard for me to be in my work environment or i might be retaliated against for reporting it. that is blocking me from economic gain. i am a black or brown person who is not able to access housing because of racial discrimination there, that is blocking my economic opportunity. the other part of this is what people feel like is the reason they are not striving --

thriving economically. there are a lot of people in the media because of republican politicians that have told everyone, especially white people that the source of their economic grievance are migrants who were crossing the border, you know, that a lot of men are not able to access opportunity because of women, that affirmative action has given people of color too much opportunity at their expense. when the core presence on why they believe there is a problem with economic opportunities to blame other people, those things are tied together that is less likely for black people to subscribe to because we typically at the bottom of the barrel when we have these conversations. >> connor, senator john fetterman, you ran against in the 2022 primary for your senate seat there, those who pushed biden to drop out should own the outcome of the election and then he also said he didn't know if it was a winnable cycle for democrats at all. what lesson should democrats take from this? was harris potentially a victim of circumstance, given the extraordinary nature of her candidacy?

>> well, the way i look at it, i always, when i am representing people, try my best to take them at their word. throughout the campaign, i would talk to different people i know who are not political and they have voted for both trump and biden in the past and they were clearly up for grabs this time. when you kept hearing people say, i know i am getting this with trump and what they usually meant by that is that they wanted, there is a job people wanted done. a lot of what the campaign was about is arguing which jobs should be done. what i see in the election results is that the jobs people wanted done are to control the border and guarantee there will be another -- not be another outbreak of inflation. we can talk about gender and crime but border in inflation were clearly the two biggest. you think about it in terms of jobs being done, that could be a source of hope for democrats. we are the party that tries to

talk about government as a force for good and we take pride in managing and running the government effectively. if it is not about identity, it certainly looks like it is not given almost every identity group shifted to trump and it is not about getting the job done, that should be our strength and we can spend the next couple years trying to figure out how to do that again. >> there is now, shaniqua, debate on how democrats could trump proof the country and the judiciary. would you think the focus needs to be and should democrats be pushing their limits while they still can? >> absolutely. i think one thing we could take from the trump playbook is that when you have control of the government, you should do what you are able to do. one big distinction between democrats and republicans is that when democrats have power, they are working to create progress for people. they are not working to amass

power for themselves, their friends and for billionaires and corporations. so we have a chance right now while we have the senate, while we have the white house, to do something. whatever, you know, if you care about this country, you will do all you can to protect all of us, you know? there are a lot of people who did not vote for donald trump that will be impacted very negatively. they need to do is much as they can right now to make sure those people are protected. >> conor, let me ask you about "politico", which is reporting that career lawyers at the department of justice are terrified on everything donald trump will follow through on. they don't, they are concerned they will be replaced with loyalists. a reminder, trump first term and do with a stunning showdown with trump and all of his first term appointees as they resisted his attempt to cling to power. how worried should they be? how worried should the country be? >> um, this is one of the largest areas of concern for

the trump administration. the country should be very worried. trump has indicated through his actions he thinks the doj is his prophet -- personal law firm and he is the first person in american history to behave that way. most people observe some separation between politics and the role of law because they know that is what most americans actually want. he does not believe that. he has first term demonstrated that. if i were still in the department of justice, i would be thinking a lot about leaving because i just don't think he believes in the basic premise of it. my hope is that some good people will remain. it is not so much about resisting or frustrating him as i think it is about standing up for what the department is

really about, no matter what the republican or democrat says is in charge and it is about protecting people by prosecuting criminals but doing so within the constraints of the constitution and the rights every american has to have. it is not a political thing, never has been so i hope people will stay there to educate the new administration about that. >> former congressman khanna lamb and shaniqua mcclendon, thank you both very much. >> donald trump's legal problems, why they have not all gone away. ♪ ♪ y. ♪ ♪ we were able to track our technician and knew exactly when he'd arrive. we can keep working! ♪ synth music ♪ >> woman: safelite came to us. >> tech: hi, i'm kendrick. >> woman: replaced our windshield, and installed new wipers to protect our new glass. that's service on our time. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

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the legal jeopardy that could remain even after donald trump returns to the hospital -- white house. on november 26, trump is set to be sentenced on felony convictions. trump's january 6 case is now

one whole. the judge said he would decide by december 2 on how to decide how to proceed and on the new york fraud judgment. joining me now with harry lipman, former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney general and now host above podcast with the l.a. times. welcome. these cases could threaten trump's personal freedom.

can he use presidential power to make them go away? >> i think so. i think the courts have never role, they have never faced this, of course, he is the first president to be convicted as a felon, but i think he will ask the court to find something like this implicit in the constitution. you can't have a state incapacitating a president during the presidency. at a minimum, you have to put him on ice. to me, that is actually a logical proposition and a likely one but he will have to advance it in the first instance in the new york setting. >> when you say put on ice, how so? do you mean, could there be a sentencing, but say it is not to go in effect until january 21, 2029? >> that is exactly right. all of the considerations that the court has talked about for immunity and having to do with incapacitating, hamstringing the president, they don't have to do with you just don't have the power. yes, i think the ruling that the most he could expect, now that he has been convicted in new york, would be for the courts to say, you can't do this, for now. but, if judge juan merchan decides to pass sentence on november 26, it is not clear how the appellate process would

work, that would still have to happen, but the most, i think, he could realistically hope for is that everything is kind of frozen in place until, as you say, january 20, 2028. >> i was asked this question and i don't know the answer so i am asking you. >> okay. >> could judge merchan make a ruling, not a ruling, but impose sentencing on tuesday before thanksgiving, seal it and say, we are not to look at this until the 21st of january in 2029. >> i don't think so. for one, we are in uncharted territory. judge merchan has recognized that before. he may do unusual things. the whole, you know, the thing that alvin bragg would say is that people have a right to know what is happening and trump has the right to try, if he wants to, at least push on the appeal. i think, you know, that kind of, you know, game of chance,

where you open the envelope january 2029, i don't see that happening. >> okay. a former federal prosecutor argues that trump managed to outrun four criminal cases, including trying to allegedly overturn the 2020 election results and got away with it because of the biden administration's massive missteps . do you agree with that assessment? >> i don't. there has been criticism all the way along about the calendar. it is absolutely true he outran the two federal ones and probably in fulton county and new york, they are up in the air. if you think about it, as long as he would have won the election and come to office before the cases were final, that means trial, verdict, appeal, supreme court, all the way along, then he would've been able to do exactly what he will do come january 20th, just

order them shut down. i don't think there was any scenario, including a trial and prosecution but as soon as merrick garland took office that would have given those results. all in all, i understand the frustration all the way along, but if you look at it like that, that, as long as he was gonna win, was knocking to be in the cards. >> harry, you have worked at the very highest levels of the doj. if trump tries to use the justice department to investigate and prosecute his perceived enemies, do you expect pushback from career prosecutors? given the history with james comey and andrew mccabe? >> it is dicey. it is ugly. as representative lamb just said, it is the most serious thing out there. typically you have people come in with philosophical differences but trump has it in for the justice department. there are some, i think, who will feel his personal wrath and other ones will just cower. the report you reference, alex, from "politico", that confirms

i have had the same conversations with people from doj. it is the most immediate worry that trump, who is on the campaign trail , that will be the trump who governs. so far, all indications are they are preparing to really kind of hollow out the career staff and the implications of that, in every case, not just personal comfort of the employees, it is the ability to do justice without fear or favor, that is truly at risk come january 20th, it seems to me. >> that is sobering. okay, harry. we will need a lot more for you and them weeks, months and years to come. >> the hopes and fears of four more years next. years next.

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thank you for being here. charlamagne tha god, who also said that kamala harris did a great job, given the circumstances. was short and camping, thrust into the role, saddled with a lot of unspoken biden administration package. did the democrat party fail, harass or did she fail the democratic party? >> yeah, i have seen and read a lot of the second-guessing and all of the blame casting and i think, you know, harris seems to have missed a lot of it. i think the consensus is that she has done the best they can, she did more than we expected coming in. let's face it, joe biden obviously put her and the party in a difficult position given the time of him stepping aside as late as he did. yeah, that seems to be the simple part of the second gas but the larger one is the structural, how are democrats

losing so many working-class voters and so much credibility with working-class voters across racial lines and even across gender lines? you know, kamala harris lost 52% of white women. women were supposed to, obviously, vote for her and they did in the majority but that is the bread and butter. there are larger issues here but she does seem to be someone new is actually getting not as much well deserved credit for the race she did run. >> you wrote a book about the application of the gop establishment to donald trump. now that he is reentering the white house with republican control of the senate and potentially likely the house, what you expect trump to accomplish in a second term? is there any resistance from within his party? >> well, you know, he has the potential to accomplish a great deal because the republicans do, you know, they maintain control of all three chambers. if you think about trump's

personal agenda, one of the checks and balances theoretically is the kind of staff you hire, the white house staff you higher, the adults in the room, the people up and down bureaucracy that can stop things, legal stuff. it sounds like he is trying to do away with any kind of check or balance. it has something we have seen in the last two years in the republican party itself, at least the people in office right now, they are not in a position to stop the train. a lot of it has to do with execution. politics is about execution. you have to pass stop. it can't be all be brute force and it can't all be bluster. look, if things start going south, especially after the midterms if republicans don't do well, you know, that could put a real halt to any kind of aspirations they might want to try to do. look, obviously, there is the potential to accomplish a great deal.

>> if you look at what trump pulled off, he did what republican candidates have not been able to accomplish in generations, he made dramatic gains with a range of voters, nonwhite voters, young voters, urban voters and you mentioned the female vote, as well, with kamala harris that didn't come out as overwhelmingly as they had hoped. i mean, what does this tell you? >> what it tells me is, first, donald trump is a turnout machine. when donald trump is on the ballot, he has overachieved basically three times, meaning he won in 2016. he really over performed his polls in 2020 and he won decisively and won the popular vote this time. >> can you tell me why you think that is? because we talk so many times about the ground game that the democrats had that way he outpaced what donald trump had. why does he, why does he turn out the vote? >> he has a hold on voters. look, in much the way, barack obama did the same back when he

was, you know, at the height of his power for democrats. look, i mean, it is worth, he has a hold on a lot of working- class americans. they feel he speaks to them. he entertains them or something. they also perceive the economy was better under him and they expect the economy will be better for them were culturally they will feel better looking forward. look, when he has not been on the ballot come in 2018, in 2022 -- >> 2022, yeah -- >> they have not performed well and he will not be on the ballot in 2026. he will not be on the ballot in 2028. i cannot imagine he will be. maybe donald trump jr. will be

but who knows? look, they have to figure out a way to get people to the polls without donald trump because republicans don't perform well without donald trump himself. >> so extraordinary, the conversations we are having right now. i look forward to our next one, mark leibovich. >> in moments we will break down this headline, make america wealthy again. it sounds good until you start asking questions. the potential impact of rfk jr. on the country's health policy ahead. ♪ ♪ ahead. ♪ ♪