right now, stunned. speechless. stupefied. trump tapping matt gaetz for attorney general gobsmacks even his republican colleagues in washington and rocks the justice department. what could happen if a man ho was investigated by the doj for sex trafficking is confirmed to lead it? also a a, taking a blowtorch to the government. what trump's picks signal about his vows to dismantle entire agencies. and trump pushes for recess appointments. will senate republicans let the president-elect fill his cabinet completely unchecked? good morning. it is 10:00 eastern, 7:00 a.m.

pacific. controversy over president-elect trump's cabinet picks hits a new level with his choice of out going florida congressman matt gaetz as attorney general. it is sparking backlash from democrats and republicans alike. gaetz submitted his resignation from the house after trump announced the pick. hours before that gaetz laid out his vision for the justice department in this x post, which has since vanished. according to "the new york times," it was reading, quote, we ought to have a full-court press against this weaponized government that has been turned against our people. and if that means abolishing every one of the three letter agencies from the fbi to the atf, i'm ready to get going. gaetz would be the first attorney general in decades with no experience as a government attorney or judge. and he was the subject of two serious investigations, the allegations of which he has denied, both launched under republican leadership.

first was a doj sex-trafficking probe, which ended in no charges. the other a house ethics probe into alleged sexual misconduct and illicit use, the findings about to be made public. gaetz's resignation ends that probe. dasha burns is covering the trump transition. msnbc host and "washington post" associated editor jonathan shape heart, new yorker, staff writer susan glasser and msnbc legal analyst and former u.s. attorney barbara mcquade. what do we know about this pick and why donald trump chose matt gaetz? >> a deleted x post is something he said plenty of times in the past. and the blowtorch that you talk about, steve bannon, trump ally, is -- ho just got out of prison, by the way, talked about matt gaetz as that blow torch to the government. this is somebody who has been a

staunch foot soldier for president-elect trump. he defended him over january 6th. he has time and time again talked about this weaponized justice system that he will now play a leading role in. this is somebody that has very much felt like the three letter agencies that he mentioned are coming after republicans, and he wants them either to come to heel as he has said in the past, or to disband them all together. and this is something, a decision that is making people like steve bannon very excited and then really, as you read there in the intro, stunning, shocking, and scaring some of the long-time civil servants that has been a part of the justice system. >> donald trump and his team around him had to see this kind of blowback coming. >> i think that's part of the decision, frankly, is to say, i am installing who i want to install whether you like it or not, and gaetz is paps the most

controversial pick so far. others like tulsi gabbard at dni and kristi noem at the department of homeland security who has no experience, right, he is rebuilding this in the image that he wants to see the government, and we have already heard him talking about these potential recess appointments where he could bypass confirmation. he wants to fully take the reins as much as possible. >> we will see if this gets all the way through the confirmation process. thanks for your reporting. bash a, you have served as a u.s. attorney. you know what the job of a.g. entails and the impact of any pick. what's your reaction to trump's choice? >> complete and utter horror. matt gaetz is incredibly ill suited for this position. he lacks experience. he has never been a prosecutor. he practiced law only for a couple of years before starting to run for statewide office as a state rep in florida. this is a position that has to be based on law and on facts, and based on his comments and

behavior in the past i don't think we should have any confidence that matt gaetz can be that leader. this is an organization that is 110,000 employees. there are prosecutors and civil lawyers, fbi, d.e.a. and atf agents. the bureau of prisons, statisticians at the bureau of justice statistics, grant makers, and the idea that someone is going to come in with the idea of a blow torch unless we get our people in there is a complete tipping on its head the principles ps and ub integrity of the justice department. >> take a listen to some of the initial reaction from gop senators. >> i don't think it's a serious nomination for the attorney general. that's lisa murkowski's view. >> i was a little surprised at that one. more it than a little surprised. >> i didn't like the way he handled the squabble with speaker mccarthy. i think it was -- that was

unnecessary. i thought it was divisive. i think that the conference suffered. >> jonathan, i have to think there are plenty of maga aligned loyalists and lawyers who would have sailed through a senate confirmation. how do you make sense of this pick? why create this headache? >> well, you know, it's donald trump being donald trump. but i also wonder if some of the theories that they were talking about on "morning joe" earlier might be at play here. and that is president-elect trump nominating someone as loathsome and loathed on capitol hill as matt gaetz only to have him back out and bring in someone else who, without matt gaetz being the first choice, might not have made it through confirmation. so i don't know who that could possibly be, but for a week where we have seen the president-elect make cabinet appointments that had people scratching their heads in the

case of senator marco rubio, being relieved in part because that's who he wants to be secretary of state, but the trio of announcements, the national security space, from tulsi gabbard as dni, hegseth as sec def and matt gaetz as the head of the department of justice, i am mystified. i have no idea why he picked this person who has gone on record as saying he wants to basically metaphorically blow up the department of justice. and what would that mean for the rule of law in this country? what would it mean for federal agents around the country who are doing the hard work and necessary work of keeping this nation safe, but also keeping it safe from bad actors from outside and within. >> and doing their work without fear or favor, which is a big piece of the work that they do, that makes our system so

special. i just want to read some of the colorful reaction nbc has gotten from doj staffers about the gaetz pick. one senior official asks, what is expletive is happening? another senior official, absolutely unbelievable. one official telling us he is uniquely qualified. how many other prospective attorneys general had previous experience as the subject of a criminal investigation? a former senior doj official telling us, he is the least qualified person ever nominated for a position in the department. susan, what are you hearing, and have you seen this level of outcry from the doj before? >> the thing is that it's a little bit hard when you hear the comments about this is unbelievable because donald trump, as always, has actually told us very clearly what he planned to do. he told us this very clearly in the campaign that just happened, and he has made the idea that he is going to take over the

department of justice and essentially use it against what he called the political enemies within, that he believes that he has a mission really of vengeance for what he believes were the wrongful investigations of himself and his allies. that was something that trump explicitly referenced in his statement announcing his intent to nominate congressman gaetz yesterday. he went all the way tack to what he calls russia, russia, russia at the start of his first term in office. this is the grievance that trump has had and that he very clearly signaled. this is not some surprise or a departure from what he campaigned on, but in fact is very consistent with that. of course, gaetz has been one of trump's loudest promoters on television. that's another thing these appointments have in common, they are loyalists to trump the man as opposed to to trump the ideology, and that they have said very clearly that they are willing to undertake whatever it is that trump wants them to

undertake. as far as the reactions go, i think on capitol hill it's very notable, senator john fetterman, democrat for pennsylvania, he said this is god tier level trolling. he wants to permanently own the libs. but it's also an effort to own his own party, i think, to showcase that republicans on the hill are willing to do even his most extreme bidding. >> you talk about the reactions. we are still getting them this morning. moments ago we heard from the current ranking member of the judiciary committee, lindsey graham, reacting to the matt gaetz pick. let's listen. >> i don't know what the rules are, if they want to send it. that would be fine. the process i will follow here is what i have done with everybody. elections have consequences. he chose matt gaetz. matt will come before the committee and he will be asked hard questions and we will see how he does. i voted for a lot of people i didn't like. >> what do you think of him?

your response? >> i think he is very smart. time will tell. >> do you see him as a candidate? >> what are the implications? >> nothing. in the liberal world -- >> let's bring in julie who is there on the hill gathering some of this reaction. how significant ask what we are hearing from graham and what else are you hearing from other members of the judiciary committee, which is sort of the first step and stop in this confirmation process? >> i can tell you, ana, from running into lindsey graham yesterday after he announced matt gaetz as a pick to attorney general, graham seemed just as shocked and confused as all of us were when we heard that happened. i asked him if he talked to trump, who he is very close with, about this. he said, no. do you think it will be confirmed? he said, we will see. obviously, he had time to think about what he was going to say in front of cameras this morning. safe to say graham is not embracing gaetz as a great pick. it's notable that he actually

did celebrate everybody else that trump picked. rubio to secretary of state. if you are reading between the leaves, the tea leaf reading, graham doesn't endorse the pick of gaetz. that doesn't mean he won't fall in line. thom tillis, a member of the judiciary committee, a couple of moments ago said that he will evaluate gaetz fair and square. something notable that is developing though is while democrats still have control of the upper chamber, we heard from senator dick durbin this morning saying that the committee is demanding that whatever the house ethics committee was able to find in their multiyear investigation of matt gaetz and his sexual misconduct or illicit drug use, all of those findings be transmitted to the senate judiciary committee, that they have their hands on the report not only that, but senator blumenthal told me they want doj's investigation findings. remember they didn't charge gaetz with anything but

conducted a lot of investigations on his behalf. so a lot to watch here. but certainly we expect republicans are going to fall in line and that should not be a shock if gaetz ends up being confirmed. >> thank you. and that cupcakes fight potential for a recess appointment. thank you, please stand by. barbara, let's look more at the resume of matt gaetz. he was briefly a private practice lawyer before entering politics. he has never been a prosecutor. he promotes january 6th conspiracy theories and spent years sewing distrust in the doj. how does that compare to the type of experience we typically see in an attorney general? >> yeah, you know, i worked in the u.s. attorney's office in detroit, part of the department of justice, almost 20 years and served in the administrations of bill clinton and george w. bush, barack obama and donald trump. and what we saw throughout those administrations were serious people, experienced lawyers.

most, but not all, former prosecutors who had worked at the justice department and understood the importance of the work and the importance of maintaining the integrity of the rule of law. matt gaetz is nothing like any of those people who came before him. one of the things i worry most about based on his public statements is his intentions to follow through on the post-watergate norms. since watergate, there have been a lot of rules put in place at the justice department to prevent what we saw during the watergate scandal where a president uses the justice department to do his bidding. some of those norms include the principles of federal prosecution which say that partisan politics or personal animus may never play a part in charging decisions. they also say that the white house and the department of justice may not communicate about case matters. based on the things that matt gaetz has said, i can't imagine that he will follow through on those norms. and those norms are so essential

to upholding public confidence in the integrity of the department. >> is there anything that holds them to that, those norms? is there any check then? >> well, the only check, i suppose, is people within the department of justice, career professionals. far from being what's called the deep state, these are people who have worked in various administrations. republicans and democrats who are not political, who just do their jobs the right way. of course, if they refuse an order, they may be fired. they may resign. and the replacements would be trump loyalists. i hope they stay and do their jobs effectively. i think the courts can serve as a check. grand juries, judges, trial juries also have standards and one hopes that they could be a check against an attorney general who wants to abuse his power. >> jonathan, one journalist who has reported on the doj probe of gaetz, again that doj probe ended with no charges, but the journalist tells msnbc that they

are deeply concerned about retaliation and "lawfare" from a gaetz doj. do you think a driving force of some of the trump transition moves we are seeing is to create a preemptive chilling effect across the media, law enforcement, military, and beyond? >> whether that's their intention, i don't know. but is that something that is a fact? that that chilling effect is happening? absolutely. this is a guy, i think as susan pointed out, who campaigned on being -- i will be your retribution, saying that the people who went after him in terms of prosecution, he was going to go after them, turnabout was fair play. and to jump on something barbara was talking about, you know, one thing that makes matt gaetz even more concerning and maybe even more dangerous and barbara, correct me if i'm wrong, the supreme court ruling on immunity

and that the president has immunity from, quote, unquote, official acts. can you imagine the number of phone calls, conversations that a president trump and attorney general gaetz could have before this ruling would be deemed totally illegal, but now because of the supreme court ruling they might not be. >> so this hasn't happened yet, right? >> right. >> matt gaetz has not been confirmed to be the next attorney general. >> correct. >> but we have all this bipartisan outcry combined with the alarm it's caused inside the doj, trump already signaling his plans to pursue recess appointments. i wonder, susan, if he goes that direction to get matt gaetz through, do you think that would create a constitutional crisis? >> well, i think it seems to be within donald trump's constitutional ability to do that. the question is whether the checks and balances in our constitution still work or not. and the senate has an important

role to play in that system with its role of advice and consent on senior appointees, which certainly include an attorney general of the united states. the question that trump already put on the table one week since he won the election is whether the senate is going to insist upon its constitutional role or it's going to let trump acquire even more power in the form of by passing their role of confirming his appointees. we don't know the answer to that yet. seems to me that donald trump is using a playbook we have seen him use before, which is forcing a test upon the republican senate in hopes of proving that he actually owns them and not the reverse. >> all right. we'll see. we'll keep an eye on these latest developments. we know thune, senator thune, will be the next majority leader, signaled sort of all options are on the table when it comes to the confirmations and potential recess appointment

options. jonathan, susan, barbara, thank you all. catch jonathan saturday and sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. we are going to go even deeper with congressman jerry nadler, who dealt with matt gaetz for years. does he expect to address him as attorney general in the future? and what we're learning about how trump's allies might use the doj for vengeance against his enemies. plus, how will the senate gopro's new leader john thune walk this maga tightrope with these confirmations? and later, you know her a as a former democrat turned republican and him as a fox host who said women shouldn't impact. what impact could tulsi gabbard and pete hegseth have on america's national security apparatus? we're back in 90 seconds. ♪ music ♪ ♪ unnecessary action hero! ♪ ♪ unnecessary. ♪

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new alka-seltzer plus fizzychews. your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire president-elect trump's choice of matt gaetz as attorney general has faced immediate blowback. here some of the reactions. no good comment. shocked. reckless. trump's middle finger. it's not just democrats and doj employees. republican congressman mike simpson telling nbc news the reaction amongst house gop when the news was announced, oh, my god. when asked if he would be a good a.g., simpson replied, are you bleeping me? no. while gop congressman max miller called the pick silly.

congressman jerry nadler of new york, ranking member on-the house judiciary committee, served alongside gaetz for years. he is joining us now. i just read the reaction from some of your republican colleagues there. gaetz of course led the far right coalition to oust kevin mccarthy as speaker. we remember not too long ago. what does it say to you that this is the reaction we are hearing from people who know him in his own party is? >> well it says they know him. i know him from the committee. he is irresponsible. he has browbeaten witnesses from the fbi, atf. called for the apligs of the fbi and atf. he is totally irresponsible, and absolutely unfit to be the attorney general. you know, let me say one other thing. wove had attorney generals of vastly different viewpoints, merrick garland, bill barr, jeff sessions but they had one thing in common. they were experienced prosecutors. matt gaetz as far as i know has

never practiced law. >> right. he has his law degree. we know that. but he has never been a prosecutor. that's one thing. congressman, you are the top democrat on the judiciary committee. gaetz served on that committee as well. he is known for colorful performances in those hearings. what was it like personally to work with him? >> well, i haven't worked with him. i sat on the committee with him. it's painful to watch him browbeat responsible people in a mccarthy-ite fashion, like mccarthy in the old days. it's painful to watch that. i felt sympathy for the witnesses. >> what's your biggest concern if he becomes the a.g.? >> my biggest concern is he won't know what he is doing, and beyond that he will use his position to get even with

people. he has said so. the president has said so. they will use the justice department to get even with people that they perceive as having been against trump. they will try to gin phony prosecutions against merrick garland, against jack smith, against all sorts of people who have -- are guilty of nothing more than doing their jobs. they will subvert the notion of the justice department and destroy justice in this country. >> do you and your colleagues fear they will come after you? >> i don't know. maybe. i mean, who knows who they'll come after? there is no way of telling. >> your colleague in the senate judiciary committee, chairman dick durbin, spoke on the house ethics committee, or about it. of course, there was that investigation into matt gaetz that is now put down because he resigned. here's what dick durbin said moments ago. >> the timing of his resignation

and flight with president-elect trump suggests he believes that the report is not friendly and favorable. so i want to read the report and find out what the investigation behind it brought out. i am asking for them to share that with the senate judiciary committee. i want to preserve this report. i want the documentation behind it and have a chance to review it carefully. both democrats and republicans. >> congressman, can you tell us anything about the house ethics committee investigation into gaetz and if this investigation is officially over, could that report still go to the senate? >> the investigation is into charges of improper sexual activity, improper drug use, bribery, converting official funds for private use and all sorts of other things. yes, the custom is that when someone resigns from congress, they don't release the report.

but the committee is completely at liberty to release it. if the senate asks for t i imagine they will. >> democratic congressman jerry nadler of new york, thank you very much for sharing your perspective on all of this. appreciate your time. >> you are quite welcome. next on "ana cabrera reports," donald trump's foot soldiers. how a former congresswoman accused of parroting kremlin propaganda and a tv host who decries so-called woke pentagon policies could be the first step to carrying out a complete overhaul of our national security apparatus. and with that on the horizon, how far can president biden go to trump-proof his big ticket foreign policy priorities?

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president trump is going to hit the justice department with a blowtorch. and matt gaetz is that torch. that is a quote from trump's former white house strategist steve bannon describing trump's pick for attorney general.

trump's cabinet announcements have been in rapid succession. matt gaetz, tulsi gabbard, pete hegseth each bringing little to no traditional experience for their new potential roles but boatloads of loyalty to donald trump, which may be exactly what trump wants. let's dig deeper with republican strategist and former democratic congressman max rose of new york. max, you served with tulsi gabbard in the house. the dni oversees 18 different intel agencies. they are responsible for things like combatting russian, you know, bad acts and, of course, gabbard has been accused of amplifying russian propaganda. she has never worked in the intel sphere. she wasn't on the intel committee in congress. what do you think about this choice? >> it's not about tulsi personally and who she is as a human being. what it is about though is what is her governing philosophy now. what has driven tulsi for so

many years is utter distrust of two things. one, our intelligence agencies themselves, and number two, is our allies abroad. and the point in which i argue with her is, is that she thinks actually what that does is prevent us from going to war. i would argue it does exactly the opposite. that if you follow what it is that they believe in and doing to its logical conclusion, it will make us far more likely to send young men and women into harm's way in the coming few years, and that's what is so utterly scary about all of this. they want too take a blowtorch as you said to these agencies. they want to rip them down from the top down. what that will mean in the end is honest hard working public servants waking up tomorrow and are fearful of their job and not thinking about how to protect each of us, and that puts us all at such substantial a risk. >> here is what we know about tulsi gabbard. falsely claimed the u.s. has

biolabs in ukraine. she supported russia's objections to nato, ukraine entering nato. she is also met with bashar al assad. she traveled to syria to meet with him. help us make sense of this, susan, this pick of tulsi gabbard for dni. >> it has nothing to do with her experience in intelligence. it has to do everything with her relationship with donald trump and she will say what he wants her to say. she will carry out whatever she is told to carry out. she hasn't the first idea because based on experience, just putting aside she doesn't understand the intel community, she hasn't managed anything at that level. that takes -- there is a lot of moving parts with 18 different agencies bringing in information, going through it, compiling analysis. she is simply there to follow out the orders she is given. donald trump said, i will blow everything up. he did.

he said, i'm going to dismantle everything. and he is. the question i have is how long, hopefully, people won't resign, public servants who have been there throughout administrations, and how much can they slow roll because government can move really, really slowly when you want to. and of course on a national security -- >> it often does. >> of course, on a national security level, our allies are not going to trust us with information. so that, too, makes us very unsafe. >> there is a bit of an unconventional pick for the department of defense as well. let's talk about pete hegseth. listen to his potential priorities in his own words. >> i'm straight up saying we should not have women in combat roles. >> i'm coming to washington, d.c., today because i can't handle what's happening in my country. >> these folks on the lawn never more than i have seen, not conspiracy theorist motivated by lies.

that's nonsense. these people understand first principles, love freedom and free markets. >> i don't think i washed my hands for ten years. really, i don't really wash my hands. >> help me, oh man. >> ininoculate myself. germs are not a real thing. i can't see them. therefore, they are not real. >> congressman, you're a veteran. what would a secretary hegseth mean for the department of defense and for men and women in the military? >> first of all, i am currently a major in the reserves. he is a major as well. that is zero qualification to operate in a role in which you are directing four-star generals. >> and overseeing 3 million people. >> it's insane. two weeks ago this guy's principle challenge was helping conservatives get through a cup of coffee. fox news didn't want to put him on a weekday slot. they popped him in the weekend. he is deeply unqualified. this is a role which the secretary of defense is an operational role.

okay? and that's fundamentally different than other departments. it's in the command authority on matters of war and peace, life and death. it is absolutely no joke. so what you see here is an utter political warrior going in who will every day care far more about these cultural fringe, whacked out issues that they talk about during elections. the truth doesn't actually impact anyone's life. what he will not be focusing on is the actual matters of defense and security. so you have got generals walking around today knowing he is walking in the front door. what they are thinking about is how do i cover my guard, how do i make sure i am on the right side of him politically. they are not thinking about how to keep us safe. this is fundamentally the most dangerous thing that donald trump has done as -- in regards to his appointments. >> i have a little more faith in the people of the country about keeping us safe. they can do both.

i believe they will do both. and they will do everything in their power and it's still their first priority. but they are watching -- they are worried they may get fired. >> unfortunately, i don't think it's that simple. issues can captivate the pentagon. and when you have someone like this come into the pentagon, it will dominate people's time at the highest levels, how do i keep him happy? how do i get on right side of the secretary of defense? it's not their fault. it will dominate the staff time. they will not -- no one would be able to focus on the issues that matter with this type of disruptive force coming into the highest levels of our national security apparatus. >> conversation to be continued. thank you both so much for being here. up next on "ana cabrera reports," if matt gaetz takes the reins at the justice department, who would he fire? who would he drop charges against? and a bigger question, who would he or could he investigate?

we have new reporting on how trump legal allies are setting the stage for doj investigations into his adversaries. dversaries

i don't care if it takes every second of our time and every ounce of our energy. we either get this government back on our side or we defund and get rid of, abolish the fbi, cdc, atf, doj, every last one of them if they do not come to heel. >> congressman matt gaetz giving a preview of what his priorities would be if he indeed becomes the next attorney general. but what can the a.g. actually do? the top priority, represent the united states in legal matters. the eric gardner also supervises over 40 different components of the department of justice, including the fbi, the d.e.a.,

the atf, the bureau of prisons and dozens more. it also means gaetz would be in charge of roughly 115,000 employees and have a budget of about $37 billion. simply put, gaetz would instantly be catapulted to become the most powerful legal voice in the nation. joining us nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, and harry litman, former assistant attorney general. what are you hearing about what this a gaetz pick would mean for the future of the department? >> they are horrified. that's not an exaggeration. i will tell you that john bolton, one of the most conservative figures in washington served as donald trump's national security advisor, said in the last this is the worst nomination for a cabinet post in american history. and he is not -- that's not hyperbole. he legitimately believes that. people are horrified because as you said the attorney general's

not only the most important legal job in the united states. it's a very important national security job. >> this is getting a little bit lost. post-9/11, the attorney general sees the most sensitive intelligence in the government. much of the same intelligence that the president sees. he or she oversees very sensitive secret counterintelligence investigations, counterterrorism operations, signs off on things that the intelligence agencies are doing, negotiates with the tech companies about how the nsa is accessing data. it's mind boggling. it takes up much of the attorney general's portfolio that national security part of tv that we don't usually see because much of it is secret. it's an incredible responsible. matt gaetz just doesn't have anything in his resume that would suggest he is prepared for that. then you have the other side where he is threatening to blow up the department and has accused it of being corrupt. he actually said, he believes that merrick garland ordered the fbi to investigate joe biden's political opponents. if you believe that, then you might believe that you could do

the same thing as attorney general. that's not what happened, but matt gaetz appears to believe it and there is a fear inside the justice department that he or people like him would order investigations where there was no predicate, no crime, and that's going to force some career people to make some really hard choices. >> ken dilanian, indeed. thank you for the reporting. harry, you have called the gaetz pick worse than even the worst-case scenario. tell us why you feel that way. >> yeah, well, look, you have got universal cries among democrats and republicans. as ken says, and i can personally attest, horror at the department of justice. i want to pick up where he last stopped. it's national security. that's a big part. but we're talking about entire function of federal law enforcement and its mandate to proceed without fear or favor. this is just one of the absolute essential elements of a well-functioning democracy.

and the only word of praise, if you want to call it that, that i heard about gaetz in the last 24 hours was an anonymous quote from a trump advisor who said, if you want to tee construct something, you can bring a small hammer or sledgehammer. matt gaetz is the sledgehammer. it's incredibly shortsighted of trump because, while he and gaetz are totally focused on possible investigations of political enemies, that is 0.1% much what the department of justice and the 100,000 employees do every day, and he has brought in literally to give it a kick in the teeth, or i could use other parts of the anatomy. it's a totally sad day for the department of justice. but for all of us as well, not to have a federal law enforcement function that has integrity, that you can actually know will respect everyone's

rights is a disaster just as a democracy. >> i ant to play some sound from trump, who has gone through multiple attorneys general before and hasn't been happy with the results. >> jeff sessions just -- he is really one of the greats, one of the greats in terms of law and order, in terms of border, in terms of judicial -- >> jeff sessions was a disaster. >> i think now we have a great cabinet. i think bill barr will be a fantastic attorney general. >> on day one of my new administration, i will direct the doj with a very strong leader, not like barr. not like bill barr. what a disaster he was. >> harry, if gaetz becomes the a.g. is there anything or anybody stopping him from doing exactly what trump wants? >> not a lot. and it's so telling, ana, that barr and sessions come in for his dissent because these are

people who were very conservative but had some regard for the institutional function of the doj. if gaetz does trumped up charges or otherwise goes after enemies on the other side of things, there are courts, there are juries. but you can exercise ruinous powers if you are jack smith today or letitia james, even though there is no possible predicate for looking at you, they know matt gaetz can make their lives miserable, can absolutely bleed them financially without doing anything, and that's just for starters. the institutional leadership of the fbi, of the department itself, everyone today is just in a complete state of fear and loathing, i would say. >> quickly, if you will, what is your sense if a.g. gaetz is in fact installed into that role, do you see mass exodus at the doj? will people resign, or will they hold strong?

>> okay. holding strong here, of course, means trying to staunch the tide against orders they don't want to carry oumt. i can give you the answer. you will see a real exodus. and sometimes with transitions you see a minor exodus. you are talking about the entire professional staff of the doj being at a minimum thinking about it. you are going to see a whole turnover. then, of course, then will come gaetz and others to shape up everyone who remains. it's a really dark day for the doj. >> harry litman, thank you as always. >> thank you. next on "ana cabrera reports," get out your calculators. we are doing some nomination math. how many gop senators can trump afford to lose and still get some of these eyebrow raising staff picks through. plus, hurting cats. despite full gop control, could the small and chaotic house majority still pose challenges

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look, gaetz won't get confirmed. everybody knows that. >> you say gaetz will not be confirmed. why bother with the nomination then? >> you can talk to the president. it's a good -- >> how do you read it? >> it's a dough flecks. >> that was former house speaker kevin mccarthy, predicting matt gaetz, the man who orchestrated mccarthy's ouster as house speaker, will not be confirmed as attorney general. with a razor thin republican majority in the senate, gaetz can't afford to lose too many republican votes. julie is back with us, and olivia, congressional reporter for politico. julie, nbc has not called the pennsylvania senate race but republicans have a two-seat majority in the senate. if they take that pennsylvania seat, it's three. realistically, can these controversial picks get

confirmed? >> well, remember even if that pennsylvania seat is called ultimately for republicans, they have four because j.d. vance will be the vice president. therefore, the president of the senate and therefore can break any tie. above that it's unlikely that anybody is going to break with trump, especially in a situation where he says we have a mandate where clearly people feel like the reason that republicans are in control of the senate and the house is because they have ridden on his coattails. that said, we talked to a number of republicans yesterday. it was shock and surprise, and this morning the reality was setting in a little bit. those on the judiciary committee especially are going to have a lot of work ahead of them. take a listen to what two republicans on the panel had to say about gaetz and his future. >> i expect us to treat every nominee coming from an administration whether democrat or republican with respect. but at the end of the day, you've got to have the votes and you better have the resume. that's how the process works.

>> i think there should not be any limitation on the senate judiciary committee's investigation, including whatever the house ethics committee generated. >> remember, ana, 35 minutes ago we were talking about how democrats on the senate judiciary committee want all of the records from the house ethics investigation into gaetz. now those calls are bipartisan when you heard from senator john cornyn just in the running to be senate majority leader, he is saying that he agrees with those calls from senator durbin earlier this morning that they want all of the records to be preserved. they want democrats who still control the upper chamber to get their hands on it before january. we'll see if the house ethics committee complies. >> yesterday trump warned in a social media post that any republican senator seeking the coveted leadership position in the united states senate must agree to recess appointments. meaning that he would get to install his nominees without a vote. the new senate leader, john

thune, hasn't ruled that out, confirming nominees is a huge part of a senator's job. would they really give up that power? >> i think even before matt gaetz was tapped to be donald trump's a.g., there was some doubt whether this would be actually something that the republican senate would move forward. they do cherish their ability to sort of weigh and decide who is going to be serving in top white house roles. so i think that while thune said he was open to it, i would say -- i'd put it in the category of not likely. and i think also while you are watching some of these republican senators, they are being put in a place where they have to weigh this loyalty test. thune was just elected. the senate majority leader. and now he is going to have to decide whether some of these more controversial picks, whether for director of national intelligence, secretary of defense, or now attorney general should go through. and now the question is, do they

really want to pick that fight? if so, who does it land on? >> turning to the house of representatives. gaetz is the third sitting house member that trump stand for a role. republican leaders are getting a little nervous about their numbers in that chamber. here is house majority leader steve scalise. >> we met with president trump and said, please, no more house members after matt gaetz. we don't want any more of them to go over d -- we will have special elections and over the next three months fill those spots. >> julie, house republicans have had a tough time with slim majorities before. how are things looking? >> reporter: they have. certainly olivia knows that very well as we were in the hallways for hours trying to figure out if republicans had the votes to pass messaging bills because they had democrats in control of the white house. that's all they can do. now where they have this incredible mandate they keep talking about, they want skbroefr haul tax policy, extending trump's tax cuts from 2017, do things at the southern

border and reforming our immigration policy, things that democrats certainly are not going to go along with. that slim majority in the house is going to bite them if trump keeps pulling for his cabinet. it's not just gaetz. it's elise stefanik, ambassador to the u.n. it is mike waltz, who he tapped as nsa director. he keeps picking if from republicans' small pile. there are a handful of races not called. as you heard steve scalise lay out there, he is hoping they stop taking their guys. >> beyond the numbers, you talked to house numbers who believe matt gaetz resigned to block that critical report from coming out. we have heard the calls up, bipartisan calls, everybody saying preserve the record. do you think that report will ultimately come out? >> it's tough to say because the ethics precedent is once a member leaves, that their investigation dies with it. in this case you have someone who is going to be, you know,

elevated to a potentially really high position in the white house, and the judiciary committee on the senate is asking for the records. also as reporters we are asking for it to be leaked. there is a chance that maybe the committee does decide to do it in a more sanctioned way of breaking press denlt and choosing to release it. so i think there is a chance, but we don't know just yet. >> olivia and julie, ladies, thank you so much for that discussion. that does it for us today. i'll see you back here tomorrow same time, same place. thanks for joining us. i'm ana cabrera. jose diaz-balart picks up our coverage after this. [♪ take a little ♪] giving without expecting something in return. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel.

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