>> they would all be bad for the country. that is why not. but you make a very good point which is this is what he said he was going to do. people didn't listen. or people said, oh, no he -- he is going to do it and what he wants. if he really wants it, he will have. ultimately i think more senate republicans than expect do get on board with it. eugene robinson, thank you very much. medicine. >> he really wants with the pesticides and all the different things, i said, he could do it. he can do anything he wants. he wants to look at the vaccines and everything. i think it's great. i think it's great. the only thing i say to bobby is, leave the liquid gold under our thfeet alone. i want -- we want to have a

little gasoline. >> let me tell you he's a great guy, rfk. he's going to do pretty much as far as i'm concerned.ch he wants health for women, for men, for children, and i happen to agree with a lot of the things he says. >> that's a look back h at just some of bdonald trump's praise for his latest controversial cabinet pick. as he has chosen robert f. chkennedy jr., anti-vaccine activist, to lead the department of health and human services. we'll have much more about that selection straight ahead. meanwhile on capitol hill senators in both parties are demanding the release of an ethics report on trump's choice for attorney general. what lawmakers had to say about the years long investigation into matt gaetz. and we'll bring you new reporting on why trump's relationship with north korean dictator kim jong-un could be different in his second term. good morning and welcome to "morning joe."

it is friday, november 15th. i'm jonathan lemire in for joe, mika and willie. with kaus, a great group.re we have nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner at and chief political columnist john heilemann. associate lueditor of "the washington post" eugene robinson, president emeritus of the council on foreign relations richard haas, who is also the author of the weekly newsletter home and away available on substack. managing editor at the bulwark, sam stein, saw him host "way too early" and washington bureau chief susan page. thank you all for being here this morning. we have a lot to get to.to let's dive right in. both democratic and republican senators are calling for the release of a house ethics committee report on matt gaetz before his confirmation hearing process begins for attorney general. the bipartisan panel has been investigating gaetz off and on

since back in 2021. most recently it has been focusing on alleged sexual misconduct, elicit drug use, improper use of campaign funds and accepting improper gifts. is that all? gaetz officially resigned yesterday from congress, a day before the panel planned to vote before the panel planned to edrelease its report. senators on capitol hill yesterday were demanding that that information still be made public. >> the timing of his resignation and flight with president-elect donald trump suggests he believes that this report is not friendly and favorable, so i want to read the report and find heout what the investigation behind it brought out. i am asking for them to share that with the senate judiciary committee. i want to preserve this report, have the documentation behind it and have a chance to review it carefully, both democrats and republicans. >> i think there should not be

any limitation on the senate judiciary committee's investigation, including whatever the house ethics committee generated. >> you want to see it? >> absolutely. >> matt gaetz has chosen to resign from the enhouse, but he can't choose to conceal that information. i can name between five and ten republicans who are seriously considering voting against this nomination and insisting that there be a vote. republicans as well as democrats are absolutely aghast at the idea that we would allow a ldrecess appointment of the top judicial officer in the united states oof america. that is absolutely abhorrent to the powers and traditions of the united states senate and constitution. >> do you have any concerns about someone who's been accused of sex trafficking, possibly

leading the department of justice? >> do i have concerns about that? well, just cto name one, i mea matt gaetz comes to nemind. i have concerns about him, about the way he disrupted and just really destroyed the house of representatives for several months. what he did to a really good speaker in kevin mccarthy and accomplished nothing except getting rid of him and, you know, ruined the reputation of the house of representatives. >> let's underscore those are both democrats and republicans calling for that information to be released and house speaker kevin mccarthy also weighed in on matt gaetz's nomination as et a.g. during an interview he conducted with bloomberg news. >> what do you make of the choice haso far? >> i think choices are very good except one. look, gaetz won't get confirmed. everybody knows that. >> you ybsay gaetz would not be confirmed. why bother with the nomination then? >> you can talk to the president, but it's a good deflection from others. but it also gives -- i'll let it stand with that. >> just provide us some thinking

into, you know, what trump had in mind towhen he made the nomination? is it a case of you win some, lose some? negotiating tactic? >> you would have to ask the president but gaetz couldn't win in a republican conference. doesn't matter. >> no love loss between mccarthy and gaetz. mccarthy blames gaetz for his fo ouster. much to discuss about this pick, john heilemann.hn you know, there is some reporting and people i talk to that tsay gaetz's nomination vy much in doubt. we will see if that report is officially leaked or finds its way -- >> officially leaked. y >> or finds -- officially released or finds its way into reporters house. >> that's 0.0% chance the report will not become public. >> what effect will it have? >> let's say it's not going to be good. what we know about this case, utwhich isn't close to everythi,

is that it's going to be embarrassing for gaetz. i don't know if gaetz is embarrassble and i don't know if trump asis embarrassble. it's umnot going to help. only one real question which is the question about rwhether th normal rules of political physics still apply in the senate and house. this is -- trump can have 45 andifferent motives for why he' doing this. the dimain motive is the same f the motive for a lot of nomination, which is trump trying to expand the power of the executive, trying to basically obviate the role of the senate. he would like to either in a de facto way get rid of advice andc consent. the fight over -- with john thune and others ostensibly over the question of, is the senate still going to have its traditional role? the question of recess appointments. if trump could turn the senate into a rubber stamp that's what he would like.am this is a way of forcing that issue, no the just gaetz but across the board on some of bthese less confirmable nomine. i think that's -- we're going to -- this is colorful some of these colorful nomination, lots

to criticize in them, but the fundamental thing here is about trump's very early efforts to try to air row gait more and more power to the office to himself personally but to the executive branch as a proxy for him. >> susan paige, let's dive into that. this is such an early stress test on the republican-controlled senate and particularly its majority leader john thune. there was, you know, like thune wasn't trump's pick for that post. republicans defied him. but they did so with a secret ballot. it's very different now that they have to put their y names it. what's your sense as to their appetite for standing up to the incoming president? . let's count the ways in which republicans in the senate have stood up to donald trump. yeah. none. never. >> not too often. >> not too often, right. not in things that trump really cared about like impeachment. so i would -- i think it's possible the senate wouldn't confirm matt gaetz. i think it is conceivable that they would. i i think it's also possible there's another repercussion to this, which is if for some

reason matt gaetz does not get nconfirmed either because the ethics report is so explosive he can't possibly continue with the nomination or because the senate refuses to confirm, i think that just really clears the way for these other appointments that maybe seem quite remarkable and out of the mainstream but are not as bad as matt gaetz. so maybe the second person who gets nominated for a.g. or maybe tulsi gabbard. maybe other people get a pass because the senate in the end stands up to matt gaetz. >> they feel like they could stand up against one and not others. in a ikmoment we'll talk to richard haas about the need to have competence at the top of omthese hugely important departments, but sam stein, let's talk s,more about the politics of it and in particular this idea of recess appointments, which has gotten a lot icof buzz had recent days. what are the latest you and your team are hearing about whether that's a real thing and explain what it would look like. >> so it's a real thing in that the trump people want it to

happen if they can't get their nominees through. i mean, it wasn't a bluff. they're putting it out there. i think ideally what they would have happen is that threat would linger and that would prompt republicans to say we don't want to blow up the institution, therefore we should get these people confirmed through the old-fashioned way. t what it would look like is procedurally complicated to explain and understand. senate republicans would have to have naa resolution from the hoe that allowed them to go to recess, vote on it, 50-vote threshold. and so, you know, will they have the votes to do that but not have the votes for the tnominations themselves? it's hard to say. ultimately i think it's probably going to be that they just take the votes rather than go to recess and ultimately pass a lot of these nominees. gene, you, and i were talking about this. >> yeah. >> i mean it ultimately comes down to john thune and a couple other of his colleagues willing to say you know what, we actually like our institutional powers.

>> yeah. >> and we want to keep them and so therefore we should not do this. but there is no history of them actually having that type of -- >> ypno. there is a history of senators feeling self-important and feeling self-importance for the institution. >> right. >> so there is that lfand that'a real thing. but there's no history of them noreally standing up to donald trump, so why would we expect them to do this?o i think we should keep in mind that if they don't confirm or they let this linger somehow, they don't go to recess, there's a provision in the institution -- i mean trump can adjourn congress. >> right. >> and so would he go that far? well he's gone -- >> why not. >> he's got as far as matt gaetz and tulsi gabbard. why wouldn't he go that far. i don't think he's bluffing. no. certainly i think there's also an thelement of trump wanting t break the senate, break any

chance of resistance. >> yes. >> they might have going forward. but gthere would be, of course legal challenges to any recess appointments potentially all the way to the supreme court. >> where trump has some friends. >> perhaps differently than it has previously on this issue.ev it's not just about matt gaetz. that's not the only pick that y trump has made that garnered some real headlines and skepticism in recent days. another, robert f. kennedy jr. his choice for health and human services h secretary. that came yesterday. that department oversees several agencies including the centers for disease icontrol and prevention and dithe food and dg administration. the position does need to be confirmed tiby the senate. t kennedy alined himself with trump after ending his own bid for president earlier this year. he is an environmental lawyer. at one time respected for his work who in recent years has become an outspoken conspiracy theorist. kennedy has criticized covid vaccines and childhood

immunizations, falsely claiming they have ties to autism and other things and also promoted products and medicines the fda has warned against such as raw milk.lk kennedy thanked president-elect trump for the nomination last night writing on social media that he will, quote, clean up corruption, stop the revolving door between industry and en government, and return our health agencies to the rich tradition of gold standard evidence-based science. you can certainly fact-check that. the president-elect has had nothing for praise for kennedy in his ideas the last few weeks on the campaign trail, kennedy promised to let rfk jr., quote, go wild on medicine and last night trump onagain touted his choice. >> today i nominated him for i guess if you like health and if you like people ythat live a lg time, it's the most important position, rfk jr. bobby.

good. and i just looked at the news reports, people like you, bobby. don't get too popular, bobby. you know, you've reached about the level now. we want you to come up with things and ideas and what you've been talking about for a long time, and i think you're going to do some unbelievable things. nobody is going to be able to do it like you, and boy, does he feel it in his heart. congratulations also to your family. >> in the hours after rfk jr.'s nomination, there was decidedly , mixed reactions from lawmaker on capitol onhill. while many democrats criticize the choice, republicans for the most blpart appeared largely ap unbothered by the nomination and e some even expressing enthusia. senator tommy tuberville called it a brilliant pick while senator iaron johnson called

kennedy a courageous truth teller. senator rand paul, mind you, is d a medical doctor, said kenned would detox the department after the fauci era. richard haas, let's take a lemoment and talk about how ouconsequential this pick is if indeed, it comes to be. i cmean, he would oversee -- there was talk he might be like a white house health czar with a nebulous role. that doesn't require confirmation. this does. it's a huge post.s. we know he's talked about everything from scaling vaccines to taking fluoride out of the drinking water. lot of dangerous stuff. at the end of the day any president would want to be served by competent people, the best of the best, to head these important agencies, be hard pressed to argue that's what trump's going for here with a number of these picks including kennedy. >> beginning with kennedy and gaetz is a close second choice to become secretary of defense is a third. there's questions of judgment and managerial competence. these are big jobs.

large numbers of agencies, large numbers of people, massive budgets. the eoidea that someone like kennedy could have this job. ulhe's supposed to save lives. if he actually were to implement some of his policies people would die. young people, particularly young people, because they wouldn't get vaccinated. des crediting vaccinations. the idea you put a conspiracy theorist in charge of this essential department, we could go on and thon. the idea of matt gaetz ought to f have this job because he understand criminality and you ought to put him in charge of the justice department? this is trolling the united states. what's missing from this it's not just a question of competence and judgment but seriousness. the u.s. government, like it or not, has an extraordinary influence in power. it reaches every part of our lives.of tens of millions of people work for the government at one level or another. where is the seriousness? where is the sense of stewardship. ? these are not appointments meant

to troll but affect our lives on a daily basis. i'm struck by the lack of serious ins. >> i don't think you understand the nature of the project.re the nature of the project is to destroy the government.o the framework we all have, which is these very important agencies and they do important work and make them better, why are we taking that seriously. it was weakened when steve bannon said the thing about our goal is the deconstruction of the administrative state.e that is what they're doing. tearing the government to pieces. that's the goal.th that's what they're serious aboutp they're not serious about otmaking it better but tearing down. >> if they go in that direction and they imight, the whole ide thof recess appointments, it's not -- it's a violation of the o norm. the whole concept of recess appointment was not meant to avoid advice and consent. another way you may be right. to destroy government and not put anything in its place, talk about then accountability for consequences. and the only problem is, we would have to wait two or four

years to have a chance to voice accountability. >> you, and i are on the same side for it. the proper way to understand what they're doing -- if you're trying to evaluate how serious a pick is this person, how well would they run the department, matt gaetz said he wants to should down the doj. he's pretty clear. now he's being appointed to do it. >> ngtrump is more controversia selections to head the agencies he cares most about, he thinks represents the deep state. doj, intelligence services, you could argue the health because of the pandemic last time p around. there's a labunch of voices comg out against kennedy's nomination. one notable one may be surprising e one, the editorial oboard of "the new york post," which is out with a piece with this headline "putting rfk jr. in charge of health breaks the first rule of medicine." the board writes in part this "the overriding rule of medicine is, first, do no harm.

we're certain installing robert f. kennedy to head health and human services breaks this rule." we sat down with rfk jr. back in may 2023. when it came to the topic of health, his views were a head-scratching spaghetti of crwhat we can only call warped conspiracy theories and not just on vaccines. neocons are responsible for america agencies policy ills, pesticides, cell phones, ultrasound, could be driving an upswing in tour rest syndrome ouand peanut allergies. he told us all america's health problems began in one year in the 1980s when a dozen bad things happened. in fact, we came out thinking he's nuts on a lot of fronts. a radical, prolonged, and confused transition ordered by a guy like rfk jr. who will use hohis high office to spout his controversial beliefs leaves a

lot of room for things to go wrong and for people to wind up harmed or even dead. extraordinarily strong words from "the new york post," a murdoch-owned paper, usually cheerleads trump in a paper we know donald trump cares very much about. joining us now to talk about ta this, dr. patel, she is an msnbc medical contributor and a former obama white house health policy director. dr. patel, thank you so much for nkjoining us this morning.jo let's just start here. what we know of robert f. kennedy's health beliefs and the policy changes he wants to implement just what sort of impact would that have on americans, particularly our children? >> yeah. jonathan, that's a pretty aseismic shift in health polic period. disappointment dis -- this appointment could lead apto vaccine skeptics. all we have to do is look at the

state of florida where the surgeon general had been relaxed about vaccine mandates, he was lax about measle cases and parents should, quote, decide if you can send e your child to school with active measles. this is undermining not just the future health of one generation but future generations. think about how long it's taken to hoend polio, measles, vaccin that , can eradicate these diseases diand now we'll see no only again an elevation of nothing related to science, not evidence-based approaches, but a dismantling of that public health infrastructure and coming out of covid, thinking about the threats that we have to public health in general, i can't think of a time when we needed trust in health institutions and there's not going to be any of that with a secretarial appointment at this level. >> dr.t patel, let me just start -- this is sam stein. that "new york post" op-ed just read is the equivalent being

surprised the leopard ate your face. we knew this was going to happen if trump was elected. he said that bobby kennedy was going to get a high-ranking appointment. for the "post" to be shocked, bobby kennedy said he had a brain worm, taking a road kill bear and placed it in central park, carved up a whale, doesn't pass muster. i will say one element that kind sof gets overlooked here is th hhs does have broad oversight over huge swath of government, among them nih, which is the leading provider of grants for scientific research in the world. okay. robert f. kennedy jr. is on isrecord saying he would stop investment in infectious disease research for eight years. eight years. just no infectious disease research for the united states to pay for. can you speak a little bit to how we would have an absolute

brain drain in this country if that were to happen? scientists, researchers, basically looking for grant money would leave america, go to canada, go to korea, anywhere else, that would pay for the research and we would it be put on the back burner in terms of scientific discovery in this nt country. >> it gets worse than that. he mentioned this is when he was running for president he mentioned not just research around antibiotics or microbial diseases, he made a comment about drug development in generale. think about the progress we made t in diseases. when i started in medical school, it was a bit of a time ago but wasn't that long ago, someone with advanced stage lung cancer, it was essentially a death sentence. now we have incredible monoclonal antibodies and genetic treatments, the list goes on of things we can do. t that was american research and drug discovery and innovation that we have made widely

available in the globe.ai we can talk about drug prices as a separate topic. no question innovation is incredible. taking ithat innovation and saying we're going to export it and not fund it is not only dangerous, but it's just putting forward this misinformation. by the way, sam, i was one of those people that discredited the idea of him getting a cabinet position because ihi thought managing 11 agencies like medicare, medicaid, that's hard work, and it didn't strike me that rfk jr. wanted to do hard work. put me in that category of shocked and n surprised he got that pick because it takes -- it takes -- i worked in and around those agencies. it's hard work and it is not something that is for the fo light-hearted because you're negotiating with congress on how to defend and get more money. before i worked in the white house i worked for ted kennedy. unfortunately he is turning in his grave thinking about dismantling the institutions he fought anfor funding like the n. you can also zero out these budgets. something you could see a

secretary like kennedy actually recommending to the president to submit in his recommendations for a budget. that alone can set back, again, it's not trivial to say generations. i think that -- what i'm looking for next is who are the appointments to arrun these agencies under an rfk jr. that's going to be very interesting to see who has to kiss the ring and say they agree with these policies and go run the fda. could you imagine? >> really important. and terrifying words there from dr. patel. thank you so much. robert f. kennedy's confirmation not a sure thing. senators murkowski and collins are in the committee health e committee and expressed skepticism in the past. there are so many nominations it's at least we have to take it seriously he might indeed run these agencies, whether it's maybe through a recess appointment. less just talk about what this truly would mean. i mean it is -- to sam's point

of a moment ago, there's a lot of democrats yesterday talking -- i heard from who were angrily talking about the undecided voters who might have broke for trump at the end because they were concerned about inflation.us this is what you get. not to say your concerns about inflation ouweren't valid. they were. by signing up for donald trump, you get this. not only do you potentially get matt u gaetz as attorney genera and you get tulsi gabbard, heading the t national intelligence agencies, but now you have robert f. kennedy jr. threatening to take away medical research, vaccinations and fluoride. >> here's one thing.er none of this should be a surprise to any of us. t the surprise is only those who didn't think donald trump would do what he said he was going to do. he said he was going to give robert f. kennedy jr. a key role in health care.y the thing that strikes me, we are just at the end of his first full week as president-elect, and he is moving so much more quickly and with so much more intent than he did eight years ago when he won the presidency

in 2016.en think about where we are now compared with where we were then. he's moved rapidly on making some of edthese key appointment. he's made some that are pretty broadly acceptable and some that have just raised the hackles of -- around the country and certainly here in washington even among some republicans. but it is a demonstration of how different i think this trump term is going to be compared to the last one where he surrounds himself with people, he knows agree with him, that will not be challenging thhim, and with a stronger sense of how things work in washington and how to get done the things he wants to get done. >> much more on wthe selection throughout the morning.rect next up on "morning joe," we will indeed talk about more of trump's other nominations plus what his transition team is saying about potential pardons for the hundreds of people who have been imprisoned in their role if the january 6th capitol attack. you're watching "morning joe." we will be back in 90 seconds. i" we will be back in 90 seconds.

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raid at his new york city apartment. the company, of course, hosted millions of dollars in wagers on the presidential race without clear insight on who was putting up the money. he has not yet been arrested or charged. a lot we don't know yet about this investigation. elsewhere, new research shows that nearly three quarters of american adults are overweight or obese. that's a sharp increase from the year 1990 when just over half of adults met that metric. the study's authors were particularly alarmed by the steep rise in obesity among children noting the far reaching implications on medical costs. and tonight, former heavyweight champion mike tyson will go toe to toe with jake paul, a youtube celebrity turned boxer. the fight will stream on netflix, a major change from the traditional pay per view format. 58 years old, tyson is more than three decades older than his opponent adding to the hype,

tyson slapped paul for stepping on his foot at their pre-fight weigh-in last night. the match is being held at at&t stadium in arlington, texas. let's turn back to politics now. as donald trump prepares to move back into the white house -- >> mike tyson -- >> mike tyson-donald trump segue. >> didn't that look like wwe. that looked like world wrestling, very staged. the face slap. >> the whole thing feels staged. ufc donald trump rumored to be attend sgloog even at his advanced stage, you do not want to get in a fight like this. piece of advice for you. if you have to find yourself in a room with mike tyson, he's in the cannabis business, but he could kill you. >> duly note good. >> you might run into him. >> with those words of wisdom on the record turning to politics,

as trump prepares to move into the white house again, his team is looking to push back on some of his more campaign, more partisan campaign promises. in the lead up to the election, trump repeatedly said he would pardon the rioters convicted for their actions during the january 6th insurrection. >> "time" magazine asked you if you would consider pardoning all the rioters. >> sure. >> you called them patriots. 140 police officers were assaulted that day. their injuries included broken bones, at least one officer lost an eye, one had two cracked ribs, two smashed spinal disk, another had a stroke. were the people who assaulted those 140 officers, including those i just mentioned, patriots who deserved pardons? >> my question is on those rioters who assaulted rioters. >> what's going to happen -- absolutely i would. >> if they're innocent i would pardon them. >> you heard trump there very clearest of what he would do, but yesterday, a campaign

spokeswoman distanced the trump transition team from that promise telling nbc news president trump will make pardon decisions on a case-by-case basis. that mirrors what the campaign said earlier this year when a qualified trump promise only including, quote, protesters who are wrongfully imprisoned by crooked joe biden's justice department. that's a pretty broad metric there, and, you know, certainly wouldn't be shocking if the president-elect once he takes office goes well, they were all wrongfully imprisoned. >> yeah. he could do that. look, the range of possibilities is from a total blanket pardon. it was a day of love and they were all pardoned. or -- or no pardons. you know, one or two. who knows. if he's going to do it case by case, that means whim by whim, in donald trump's world. so we have no idea what he's

going to do. the idea that this is even a thing, that this is even being considered is ridiculous and outrageous, but it's what he said he would do and imagine, you know, what -- what about the cases that haven't been brought yet? well, they're never going to get brought under matt gaetz if he becomes attorney general. so this is where we are. this is what people very unfortunately voted for. he said he's going to do it, and he's going to do it. >> richard, i'm like this jerk today, apparently. the qualification -- >> [ inaudible ]. >> totally fair point. the qualification is not a qualification. both cases where they said, it's a case by case. trump goes out and says he's going to pardon them all. the campaign says it's case by case. that is not a qualification. that is not even saying -- they're not contradicting him. they're saying that can be read as saying trump's going to

pardon them all on a case-by-case basis. they're not in conflict with each other. classic campaign spin to make something that sounds outrageous sound less outrageous but doesn't change the fact that trump has made it clear what his intent is. he said it multiple times on the campaign. he's going to pardon them all. is there any reason to suspect that donald trump will not pardon them all? >> only if he decides politically that it would be counter productive to pardon them all or pardon whatever number he wants. what this conversation is about, we like to say we're a nation of laws. it turns out not so much. we're a nation of extraordinary discretion. >> and norms. >> and norms. >> yes. >> character counts. you have a constitution you've got laws, procedures, but it only protects so much and takes you so far. what we're seeing now really is a radical shift in our politics where discretion and executive discretion, everything we've talked about, we haven't gotten to the prime minister

essentially which is elon musk, but you create all these mechanisms where you essentially do end runs around constitutional procedures, around the laws, and you realize how vulnerable a democracy is to the character and the agendas of those who weald power. >> jonathan, author of the big lie here, knowing donald trump and how he relates to this issue, he spent a couple years saying he was going to pardon these people and there are political prisoners and patriots, and he won the popular vote in the country. is that not your understanding of donald trump, what he thinks, he has a mandate to do the things he said on the campaign trail, i don't think there's any reason to think he's not going to do this because i think he thinks the politics are in his favor. >> the very first rally he had in this presidential cycle was in march of 2023 in waco, texas, a location that drew eyebrows for its association with the branch davidens. what was the first thing that happened at the rally, the

january 6th convict choir played a song. coming up here, we turn to foreign policy and president biden is set to met with chinese leader xi jinping tomorrow. nbc's janis mackey frar will join us with what we can expect to come out of that discussion as the united states and the world prepare for donald trump's return to the white house. "morning joe" will be right back. white house. "morning joe" will be right back we're in a parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body. i asked myself, why doesn't pilates exist in harlem? so i started my own studio. getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy.

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and there, washington, shot of the white house. president biden not home. he's overseas and set to meet with chinese president xi jinping tomorrow in peru. it will be their first in-person meeting since they met in california almost exactly a year ago. next u.s. president to meet with xi, of course, will be donald trump. however, the dynamic in the far east since they last met has changed dramatically in the past four years. joining us live now from beijing is nbc news international correspondent janis mackey frayer. preview for us, if you will, the meeting between xi and biden tomorrow, but also, what this relationship between china and the united states will look like once donald trump returns to office. >> reporter: well, jonathan, one of the more challenging foreign policy issues we know facing any u.s. president is north korea and while president-elect trump has said that kim jong-un misses

him, it isn't clear whether that is the case because kim is now emboldened, and he is no longer alone. donald trump has long touted his personal touch with leaders like xi jinping, vladimir putin, and kim jong-un. >> i got to know a lot of the foreign leaders. let me tell you, unlike our leader, they're at the top of their game. >> reporter: but in his second presidency, it's a different world trump is facing. with u.s. officials saying thousands of north korean troops are preparing to fight with russian forces in kursk, north korean weapons already on the battlefield. and more nuclear capable missiles being tested. south korea's military intelligence agency warned last month that a seventh nuclear test could be coming. kim jong-un has been emboldened by the prestige of his strategic ties to russia, that have hardened his stance against the u.s. it's a pivot from the optics of

trump's first turn when it was all smiles, flattery and letters. >> we go back and forth and then we fell in love, okay. >> reporter: that took a turn in 2019 when trump at a summit in hanoi broke off talks with kim. now he's tight with putin, analysts say kim may not be quick to rekindle a friendship with trump. >> the strategic value of the united states for pyongyang has gone down considerably. north korea has no reason to talk about denuclearization. any talks that are premised on denuclearization kim jong-un has no reason to show up. >> reporter: tension is tearing at the korean peninsula where in the last year kim has called off the goal of unification, even blowing up roads near the border, and declaring seoul a permanent enemy. it's all a concern here in china that north korean troops could expand the war in europe and pull asia into it. chinese officials avoid commenting on the putin-kim

partnership saying their bilateral relationship is their business. yet, as the economic lifeline to both russia and north korea, china has the clout. they're just not using it. despite pressure from the u.s. to do more. >>, obviously, we would hope that china would use its influence, and it doesn't appear they are with the russian government, to cease and desist, but i don't think that's happening. it's unfortunate. >> reporter: in that sense, china presents a dilemma for trump who said he could end the war in ukraine, but may find the road to a deal goes through beijing. >> there are so many things that will lead china and the u.s. to cooperate. it is almost [ inaudible ] everywhere. >> reporter: as trump makes his return to the world stage he'll be surrounded by familiar faces, but with kim's nuclear advances and his troops aiding russia against u.s. armed ukraine, the stakes for trump's second term

are edging higher. given the uncertainty that's lingering around continued u.s. support for ukraine analysts in seoul now say the government there is reconsidering whether they're going to send weapons to kyiv and until there is some sort of clarity on what trump administration is going to do. in the meantime the office of south korean president yook suk-yeol confirms he started practicing golf to prepare for meetings with donald trump. >> there have been a number of world leaders decided that golf diplomacy was the way to go with trump. let's get your analysis here on what we just heard, how kim jong-un, far less isolated than he used to be when trump was in office the first time and how you see the relationship between washington and beijing once the 47th president assumes the oval office. >> two things, one is north korea.

north korea has far more missiles and more nuclear weapons and has a close relationship with russia. whereas china was at a time somewhat restrained in how it dealt with north korea, in part didn't want to provoke japan or south korea, russia has no constraints because russia wants north korean help for ukraine. the situation has grown worse. china is not being helpful right now. russia is being anything but helpful. this is a real problem. what doesn't help is also the last time donald trump was president, u.s. ties with seoul, with south korea, were strained. he threatened to pull u.s. forces out. so right now in south korea, there's a big debate, should they have nuclear weapons of their own if they can't count on the united states? you've got all those dynamics. china is the most important bilateral relationship and i think for the trump administration, the biggest question, jonathan, what's our priority? is it to deal with the trade imbalance? donald trump is talking about 60% tariffs against china. china is prepared to retaliate economically if we do that against american firms.

meanwhile, we've got the south china sea, china's moving there against the philippines. that could be the first foreign policy crisis facing a trump presidency. you've, obviously, got taiwan. china's ambitions to take over taiwan at some point. we just talked about north korea. so the question is how do we approach china? this relationship is far worse than it was when donald trump was last president. it's deteriorated over the years. what this is a reminder of the foreign policy inbox this time around we haven't talked about the middle east, barely mentioned ukraine, the foreign policy inbox this time around is more crowded and far more difficult than it was eight years ago. >> richard, this is susan paige, i have a question for you. we met when you were working at the bush white house and other president who lost his bid for re-election and we still have another president in the white house governing and, in fact, on a foreign trip at this moment. what could president biden do in the remaining weeks of his presidency to set up things on

ukraine or on climate change, issues he cares a lot about, they're about to have, being in a world of hurt? is there anything the sitting president can do, even though he's a lame duck, to affect the turn of events ahead? >> it's a good question and one i've been wrestling with. he can't lock things in, and he can't guarantee -- he can't reassure allies that the united states will be there. i remember four years ago joe biden said the united states is back. it turns out donald trump is back. that means something very different. what he could do, he could examine forward with proposals. one is with ukraine. he could lay out basically a negotiating position for ukraine, but say in order to make this happen the united states has to commit to support ukraine. he could put pressure on russia by doing that. he could basically lay out a negotiating position there. similarly in the middle east, he could lay out a proposal for gaza. he could lay out a proposal for

lebanon. again, he can't lock donald trump in, but what he can do is put out comprehensive foreign policy initiatives that donald trump would at least have to deal with. i think it could in some ways frame the situation. at the end of the day, joe biden's a lame duck. he's limited. but i still think he could use his voice if he were prepared to. >> when trump won the first time in 2016, then president obama traveled to an international summit and tried to assure allies, you can still count on us. i think we should expect similar language from president biden in the next few days here in peru and the g-20 in brazil. can the world believe it? >> it won't reassure anybody. that's the bottom line. steed, what it shows is how the united states has become essentially unpredictable and unreliable and for our allies in particular, jonathan, this is truly unnerving because they depend on us. >> richard haas and susan paige, thank you both for being with us this morning. still ahead here, "the new yorker's" susan glasser calls the incoming administration the

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here comes your shove. everybody knows what's coming. did he get in? he is. touchdown. >> the philadelphia eagles cap a 76-yard drive to open the fourth quarter with their trademark turn-push in their game against the washington commanders. not sure why that play is legal. saquon barkley carried a sluggish offensive with 146 yards rushing and two touchdowns scored within 20 seconds of each other at the end of the fourth to ice the game. he has been so good for them. there's mvp talk. sorry fans. they extend their lead with a 26-18 victory over the commanders. sam stein, that's a tough one for new york giants fans to see

say kwon -- saquon barkley runnt will all season long. they let him go, 90 minutes down the turnpike and he's an mvp candidate in philly. >> yeah. but we giants fans, we don't have feelings anymore. we're numb to any disappointment. i stopped watching them after week two, and i actually feel good about it because my sundays are more free and, frankly, like i feel bad for eugene over here, you have to watch -- i don't feel bad. the commanders are great this year. >> the commanders are great. don't cry for me. >> but they didn't show up last night. >> yeah. you know, they were -- the -- the eagles weren't that great but the commanders really weren't themselves. and jake daniels hasn't been himself the last two, three years. >> give the guy a break. >> he's a rookie. he's figuring out the defenses. they're throwing things at him, new things. i also think when he had that rib injury earlier this season, i actually think he hasn't quite been the same but ribs do heal. watch us later.

watch us later in the year. >> you guys have a bright future. we have nothing. nothing. >> that's great. >> nothing at all. maybe the first pick in the draft this year. thanks, guys. coming up, we'll turn back to president-elect trump's latest controversial cabinet pick. dr. zeke emanuel, a former white house adviser for health policy under president obama he will join us to weigh in on robert f. kennedy jr.'s nomination as hhs secretary. "morning joe" will be right back with that. " will be right back with that. see what i did there? hey, jackie! (♪♪) evan, my guy! you're helping them with savings, right? (♪♪) i wish i had someone like evan when i started. somebody just got their first debit card! ice cream on you? ooo, tacos! i got you. wait hold on, don't you owe me money? what?! your money is a part of your community, so your bank should be too. like, chase!

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but, more importantly, we have to look at the bigger picture. it is time to move on. >> that is former united nations nikki haley giving her reason she is not considered for trump's second administration and comes after a social media post by the president-elect over the weekend which made it clear she was not interested and they were never interested in her. it is friday, november 15th. welcome to "morning joe." i'm in for joe, mika, and willie. john heilemann is still with us. joining the conversation is co-host of "the weekend" on msnbc, symone sanders-townsend. robert f. kennedy jr. has been

named for health and human services. the department oversees several agencies including the centers for disease control and prevention and the food and drug administration. nbc news correspondent von hillyard has the latest on this controversial pick. >> reporter: after teasing a potential administration role for weeks. >> rfk jr. is going to help us on health and the health of women and men and children and he is so good. >> reporter: president-elect trump selecting robert f. kennedy jr. to be his next secretary of health and human services, writing, americans have been crushed by the industrial food complex and drug companies who have engaged in deception, misinformation, and disinformation when it comes to public health. kennedy is a former democratic and independent presidential candidate who dropped out and endorsed trump. >> we want an america president who is going to make our country healthy again. >> reporter: but he has faced criticism because of his history

of vaccine skepticism and publicly espousing credit -- >> he has indicated the person in charge who would be in charge of health care for the american people is someone who has routinely promoted junk science and crazy conspiracy theories. >> reporter: kennedy telling us last week that he would not block any vaccines. >> i'm not going to take anybody's vaccines. i've never been anti-vaccine. >> reporter: you will not take any vaccine that is currently on the market? >> if somebody -- if it's working for somebody, i'm not going to take them away. >> reporter: during the campaign, kennedy also made headlines when he said that 15 years ago, doctors told him he had a parasitic worm in his brain that died. kennedy is a critic of u.s. health care policy who has advocated to big changes and

telling us he would eliminate parts of the fda. >> the nutrition department of the fda have to go. are not doing their job. they are not protecting our kids. >> reporter: that was nbc's von hillyard with that report. joining us now is former obama white house for health policy and from the university pennsylvania, dr. zeke emanuel. thank you for being with us this morning. if we can start with your reaction to trump's nomination of robert f. kennedy jr. and if he were to take that position, what sort of impact would it have on our nation's health? >> well, i think the man is unqualified for the job. he doesn't have management experience. he doesn't understand how science is done. he doesn't understand how the federal government evaluates various studies.

he can't actually look at a research paper and look at the data and draw conclusions. and he is about to, you know -- they want to give him a 2 trillion budget for a department that oversees the cdc and fda and as well as medicare and medicaid. that is a bad combination. i should say he does have some ideas that are worth pursuing, such as focusing on chronic illness. 85 to 90 cents of every dollar we spend on health care goes to chronic illness. we have to focus on them. they are our big problems whether hypertension, cancer, debates, arthritis, and we have to get our arms around them and he is right to improve the nation's health. you have to attack chronic disease. he also writes that we have to look at ultra process foods in the food chain and how they cause obesity in the country and stop that. and we have to get conflict of

interest issues out of the review of drugs, devices, nutrition, et cetera. but then he goes on to vaccines. one of the greatest inventions humans have ever had. we have saved hundreds of millions of people. it's estimated we saved 154 million people from vaccines in just the last 50 years. and the united states alone, the childhood vaccines, vaccines against hepatitis and pneumonia, we have saved 1.1 million people in the last 30 years. and he wants to get rid of them. he says he is not taking them away from people, but he is going to not approve them. he is going to make sure the government doesn't certify them so that they can be reimbursed by insurance company answers he is going to put a chill in the drug companies from investigating and doing research and development to develop new vaccines. this is right when we are facing

an potential uenza. i worry about this appointment and as well as other appointments. it's not a good moment for health, i think. >> zeke, it's jon heilemann here. let me suggest the possibility one of the ways we are all kind of getting the story a little bit wrong is by looking at all of these cabinet appointments and evaluating on the basis of is the person qualified to run the thing they are being asked to run. most of these people are not qualified to run the thing they are being asked to run. pete hegseth, he put him at the pentagon what employees 2.8 million people at the pentagon. the man has never run anything bigger than a carpool. he is, obviously, unqualified to run it. i think you would say the same thing as you said about robert f. kennedy jr. and hhs. what if the goal isn't to run it

and the goal is, in fact, to ruin it and what this is about taking the president at his ideological at their word is about the thorough deconstruction of the administrative state. they are trying to wreck the government, not run the government. if that were the goal, bobby kennedy might be uniquely qualified to do that in the world of hhs because not only he is not able to run an organization this big, but he is a paragon of misinformation and disinformation about health which is another kind of toxicity and poison he may introduce into the system if he gets this job. >> i think there is a lot of merit to that. and let me say, i think another way at looking at this is the president trump had a lot of bad appointments during his first administration. he had rick perry at energy and several others. he also had some strong appointments and jim mat mattis

at the defense department. bill barr understood he to stand up to the president at some poits. i think another way these are not people on who are going to resist trump's whims and are going to say, no, there is a bright line, these things aren't constitutional, these things are not legal and i'm not going to do them and i think these with appointments that will bend to his will and i think that is extremely dangerous and it's up to the senate. they have an advise and consent role and we have seen that a lot of senators on the republican side are not quite comfortable. they elected senator thune who is an institutionalist and i hope he defends the prerogatives of the senate here. as you point out, these are not people who can actually constructively n their departments in the national interest and that, you know, there is no faster way to become a second-rate power and a has been than to destroy your

government and destroy your defense department, your economy with tariffs and other things, and i fear, i fear that that may be where we are headed. >> ramifications we felt for decades to come. dr. zeke emanuel, thank you for joining us this morning. >> thank you for having mooe me. matt gaetz is also facing growing scrutiny but he is doing it from both democrats and republicans with one saying that he absolutely wants to review an unreleased report examining allegations of sexual misconduct. a lawyer for an allegedly victim called for the report also to be made public. posting this on social media. mr. gaetz's likely nomination as attorney general is a perverse development in a truly dark series of events. we would support the house ethics committee immediately

releasing their report. she was a high school student and there were witnesses. nbc news chief white house correspondent peter alexander has nor. >> reporter: trump with more critical choices made to come and his picks are sending shock waves across washington, especially this former florida congressman matt gaetz for attorney general. >> he is an accomplished attorney. he is very concerned about the law fare has thab has been occu in the department of justice. >> reporter: multiple sources say gaetz is trying to get his read on his chance to get confirmed. one republican saying there is enough opposition to sink his nomination. >> he's got a really steep hill to climb to get lots of votes, including my opinion a lot of people spent a lot of political capital on even if they got done you wonder if it's worth it. >> reporter: gaetz resigned his house seat into whether he

engaged in sexual misconduct and elicit drug use. allegations gaetz denies. the top republican says senators should see the report. >> i think there should not be any limitation on the senate judiciary committee's investigation, including whatever the house ethics committee has generated. >> reporter: trump reportedly slammed the doj what he says were political progressions. and praising gaetz who he says will end the, partisan weaponization of our justice system. >> the law fare we have seen against president trump will do great damage beyond our time in public service. >> reporter: some argue trump is entitled to the team he wants. >> i'm telling my democratic friends elections have consequences whether you like it or not. >> reporter: president-elect trump hosting allies at mar-a-lago. >> the great people of our country won the peculiar vote and that is what they wanted and this was something really special. recaptured the senate and won the white house and as of today

recaptured the house. >> reporter: also facing a potential confirmation battle tonight trump's selection for pete for example seth for defense secretary. a fox news host and decorated combat veteran but democrats are questioning his readiness to lead the pentagon. >> he has no managerial experience and no policy experience with the really substantive and significant issues that the department of defense has -- >> reporter: some republicans are gends defending the pick. >> the department of defense is enormously mismanaged and need to get back to legality and pete could lead that. >> reporter: trump's pick for national intelligence tulsi gabbard, a democrat turned trump supporter, who is also a military veteran. some lawmakers have slammed her past meeting with syria's leader and accuse her of being too sympathetic to russia. >> someone who has aligned herself previously with russia, with syria should not be in a position to have any of the information that is, you know,

america's greatest secrets. >> reporter: gabbard speaking out. >> of course, there is going to be resistance to change from the swamp in washington. i think that is kind of the point. the american people are saying, hey, stop looking at yourself and stop focusing on your own power, your own position, your own bank accounts. >> reporter: that was nbc news's peter alexander with that report. susan glasser your, you write in part this. perhaps it was no surprise that trump with his demands for displays of loyalty and his penchant for obsessive television watching has quickly assembled the makings of a second term cabinet that might be better suited for a republican reality show casting call. trump's cabinet rollout shows pretty definitively his plan for the new administration. he does not just want to explode the norms of the capital when he returns to it. he wants to stomp on them and

anyone who might be tempted to stick to the old rules that trump loves to flout. you go on to write, quote. susan, certainly an insightful piece and it seems he is assembling a team to do just that. this time, because he is now far more familiar with the levers of power in government, it seems like he has a much greater chance of succeeding than he did the first time around. >> yeah. i think that is what is really striking here.

first of al did te us all this in advance. we are talking about rfk jr. he literally said before the election he wanted him to go wild on america's health bureaucracy. so, again, you know, the shock is on some levels, so many people are shocked. i do think, jonathan, you and i have experienced this before, the distraction of the carnival, the donald trump is probably relishing all of the attention to the controversies he has had in one week. i think that could be a distraction from what the underlying goals are here. steve bannon, you know, was practically gleeful in talking about the gaetz pick the other day. he said i think is important. he said donald trump has picked a blow torch for the justice department. and you can say that almost all of these picks in their own ways are potential blow torches for

the department that they have been chosen to lead. i think to the extent there is an ideology, that is the ideology and ideology of burn it down, blow it up, you know, reinvent it and that plus personal loyalty to trump, himself, a big lesson he took away from his first term in office. >> symone, it's heilemann here. i ask you to give a sense for us, if you can, what the loyal opposition is thinking collectively. like, if you could draw a thought bubble around the democratic party right now. obviously a lot of self-scrutiny and self-assessment and some finger pointing and some blame casting going on the democratic side being rocked what happened last tuesday. you hear the debate play out. some people understand this is a preview what it will look like, what the lines of combat are going to look like after january 20th. is anybody in the party right now starting to think about what should the strategy be?

where can we resist? i want to take away the word resist. where can we fight back and make it harder for the unitary republican government to accomplish what seems to be some pretty cad ral ends? >> well, look, heilemann, if you look at what the democratic lead hakeem jeffries has said and he has been quite consistent saying democrats will work with their republican counterparts in the house where they can and they are going to continue to try to deliver for the american people. democrats have been the minority in the house the entire time but in this particular congress and i argue next given the margins. the republicans in the house are going to need democrats in the house to represent further their agenda. whether it comes to the united states senate, though, i do think that democrats within the senate led at this point by senator schumer, they have not articulated a strategy, if you will, because i don't think democrats want to be in the posture of we are against, we are against, we are against.

you know, people send their members of congress to congress to get things done. however, these are not normal times. you know? so when we are talking about senate confirmations potentially or even recess appointments, we have the yet to see at large the senate democratic caucus articulate their stance on that. i know what people think privately and senator durbin is calling for the report. the senators have their own victims, if you will, on these committees so he has the ranking and the right to raise that and ask for that as the ranking member, as a democrat on that committee. but what is senate democrats posture at large? and that is what they are going to have to quickly articulate and figure out in this new order. it is not enough. i was disturbed by fetterman who said matt gaetz was high level trolling, if you will and donald trump trying to own the libs and it's not serious. as one of my followers on

twitter said i'm going to hold america's hand and say there is no 3d chest. this isn't about trolling. this is the strategy. this is his plan. so democrats have to get serious, particularly in the senate where the spotlight will be on them in the next coming days and weeks throughout the rest of president biden's term and at the start of the new congress come january. >> symone says she wants to hear from the democratic senators. let's ask one. chris coons of delaware is joining us and he is a member of the foreign relations and judiciary committees. thank you for being with us this morning, senator. incoming senate majority leader john thune said using recess appointments to get trump's cabinet nominees is an option. we will play what he said on fox news yesterday. >> do you then punt to a recess and try to recess the senate for ten days and get those appointments in? >> well, it's an option but, obviously, it takes, you know, you have to have all republicans

vote to recess as well. so the same republicans that you mentioned that might have a problem voting for somebody under regular order probably also have a problem voting to put the senate in to recess. you have to have concurrence from the house and all this is a process. but i don't think any of those things are necessarily off the table. >> senator coons, you heard it there. senate majority leader thune said it's not off the table. let's get your reaction to this possibility and how likely is this? >> you've been discussing this morning a number of president-elect trump's picks are alarming. our folks who are just unqualified to lead the important -- the critical agencies they have been nominated to lead. as you mentioned in the introduction, i serve on both the foreign relations committee and the judiciary committee. and to answer symone's question about what is the posture going to be, speaking for myself at least, i'm going to work with

president trump on his nominees when they are folks who could credibly lead an agency and i will work as hard as i can to block, stop, or slow those who are unqualified either by their integrity or experience or their policy views to lead an agency. the u.s. department of justice is a massive agency with 115,000 employees. 60 billion dollar budget. it's not a joke. this isn't reality tv. this is reality. the u.s. department of justice investigates and prosecutes federal crimes all over the united states and is critical to our national security to protecting the american people, to enforcing antitrust rules and lots and lots of things that matter to the american people. and our state department, which senator marco rubio has been nominated to lead, is also a critical global force for good that helps project the american people's interests, values, and power around the world.

senator rubio is someone i've served with for 14 years. he is seasoned and experienced and served on the intelligence committee and foreign relation committee. we have policy differences, of course, but he strikes me as someone who is much more in line with traditional nominees with the experience, the integrity, the vision to be capable of leading the state department. so my hope is that senator thune recognizes as the newly elected leader coming into this next congress, that he will have strong pushback in his own caucus. if they recess the senate and hand president trump the chance to appoint literally anyone he feels like for up to two years. that would be setting aside a critical constitutional role of the senate, the role of advice and consent. >> senator, it's symone. how are you? >> hi, symone. >> i think you have actually quite clear on what your posture is and a couple of other

democratic senators have as well. but my question is what about the caucus? have the caucus come together and had a meeting about what the posture is going to be? are we going to see a press conference from senate dems and leadership? what happens if the republican senators do decide to give for the president-elect what he would like in terms of recess appointments, what happens if they go that route and then you all just don't come back and confirm the rest of the folks and donald trump just has a bunch of acting individuals? what then would senate democrats be prepared to do or say? >> i can't speak for the whole caucus, symone. i will tell you that we have other tools. the constitution does give the president the power to make recess appointments. that goes back to a time when the senate was only in session a few months a year and there were long periods. so the framers decided it was important for the president to be able to keep the government

running. it was a government that was dramatically smaller and it was assumed that the president wouldn't abuse that power. so i'm not going to get ahead of our senate majority leader chuck schumer. we met several times to process the election and debate and discuss our path forward. i will tell you that i think one of the main messages of this election was that millions of americans want a stronger economy, they want better opportunities, and they want lower prices. and i hope we will spend some time focusing on how trump's plans to try and deport millions of people and to slap huge tariffs on all imported goods which will raise prices for consumers and lead to a higher economy and lower growth. we knew this during the campaign. i talked about it a lot in the campaign and yet the americans listening to both sides said we trust trump with the economy and

now they will get to see the difference and direction he is going to take us and hopefully there will still be time and room to also debate the dramatic consequences of putting people like rfk r. in charge of vaccines and the water and public health and the consequences of putting matt gaetz, someone who couldn't pass an fbi background check, in charge of the most important law enforcement agency in our country. >> senator, it's susan glasser here. >> good morning, susan. how are you? >> lots to discuss. you mentioned the meetings that you had in the caucus to talk about what just happened in the election. i talked with one of your colleagues the other day who said that, you know, it was a realistically painful conversation. there seemed to be a lot of agreement that immigration really was an issue that hurt some of your vulnerable senators and, in particular, the biden administration, you know, sort of taking a long time to come around to the idea that there was actually a crisis that needed to be addressed.

i'm curious. what was your takeaway from some of the after action reports from your colleagues like sherrod brown who did lose his re-election in ohio? >> sherrod, like john tester and many of our candidates for the senate, ran ahead of our presidential candidate by many points. if vice president harris had only lost ohio by four to six points, sherrod would be returning to the senate. so one of the things that we discussed was how some of our incumbents like sherrod brown who is well known to the people of ohio, who is deeply rooted in fighting for the dignity of work, who has stood fast with unions and fought for manufacturing jobs all over his state, actually performed relatively well. there was broad agreement that our candidates and our campaigns were well-funded and well run and a huge number of volunteers. what we were debating and discussing were our policies wrong or did we fail to connect with middle american voters?

i don't think and most of our caucus doesn't think that the accomplishments of the biden/hair it's administration investing in infrastructure and mental health and supporting our veterans and making progress in gun safety, we didn't have wrong policies in terms of the core accomplishments of the administration. but there were some key issues that were not addressed quickly enough or well enough. one of them was housing and another was border security. >> democratic senator chris coons of delaware, senator, thank you, as always. >> thank you. susan glasser thank you as well. we will be reading your new piece online for "the new yorker." our next guest as the united states is a bitterly divided nation and is pointing the blame at the country's elite institutions. "the atlantic" david brooks joins us with his new piece, "how the ivy league broke america." i mean they even got my nostrils right.

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pretty shot there of rockefeller plaza and the christmas tree a few weeks away from being lit. we still got thanks to look forward to first. the new cover story for next month's issue of "the atlantic" offers a sprawling examining how the ivy league broke american. david brooks has six points.

quote. david is joining us now. david, a fascinating and important piece. start with the last one coming after the election, of course, where it does seem like a lot of what fueled this trump vote, and he saw gains across the board, was sort of an anger, a backlash, a populace anger at the elites. >> thanks for summarizing that 12,000 word in 30 seconds. what the big divide of america? college educated people are turning sharply to the democrats and high school educated people are turning to the right to donald trump.

he wrote a populace wave of anger for people with high school degrees and not college degrees. that anger flows out of something and it flows out of life in america right now. people of high school degrees die nine years earlier than people of college degrees and ten times likely to die of opioid death. if you ask people do you have close personal friends? people with high school degrees with two and a half times more likely to say i have no close personal friends. i'm trying to describe this as people who have a college degree and those who don't. it segregated people by people with bogus categories and now the people left out of that segregation system are revolted. as we talk about the appointments and the things important that we are talking about today, we need to address the deep structural issues that gave us donald trump. >> hi, david.

symone sanders-townsend. i found this fascinating, your whole piece. i'm reading david sounds like bernie sanders, because the populism tones are strong. i wonder how race plays into this. if you look at a number of surveys taken through the election, i think diamondback to goldman sachs survey specifically and they surveyed middle manager and upper manager and black women and they say they feel they are living paycheck-to-paycheck. how does race account in to this? because i do think that many of the points you make here are spot on, too much focus on, you know, grades and standardized tests and not enough focus on, as my husband might say, you know, street skills. >> yeah. that is absolutely right. first, i have a buddy who worked for bernie sanders who is razzing me for joining the bernie bro so i'm a little alarmed by that, frankly.

but, you know, i do think the number of people living paycheck-to-paycheck, and the way race plays in to. i would say one of the things we have to have in our american colleges is representation. representation to diverse communities. and when affirmative action was taken away by the supreme court if you look at the statistics how many black students there were and how many other kind of minority students, they are just not as many. and that is because they have one standard for getting into college. one threshold before anything else gets considered at an elite university is how did you do on the s.a.t.s? and that is a system that is rigged because the rich people can afford to spend tons of money on their kids and get them higher s.a.t. students and higher tutoring and get them all of these extracurriculars and boost their gpa averages. if you grow up in the top 1%, you have a 77 times greater chance of getting in the ivy league than people making less than $40 or 50,000 a year.

the whole game has been rigged so rich parents can pass their advantages down that their kids and created this that led to a permanent divide in our society. if you happen to be a part of a community that has suffered 400 years of slavery and discrimination, of course, you'll be disadvantaged by that system. we need a better system that represents ability is my core point here is it's not can you do well on a standardized test. that is fine. it's important to have a high i.q. if you're going to be a physicist. but for most of us what really matters is are you curious? are you a good teammate? do you know how to make sound judgments? are you kind? these are the things that actually matter in life. are you creative? and somehow our system does not favor the things that really matter in life. and it favors the things that make you good in a classroom. >> contributing writer for "the atlantic, david brooks, thank you very much. the new cover story is available to read online now.

symone, thank you as well. we will be watching "the weekend" it starts at 8:00 a.m. on msnbc. coming up here on "morning joe," we will show you the unconventional way a lawmaker in new zealand protested a bill that had to do with the country's indigenous people. "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be righ back what do we want more of? more laughs. more hang outs. yeah, more of all of this stuff. but getting older also means more risk of serious flu, covid-19, and rsv. vaccines lower your risk, so you can keep doing more. a chewy order is en route for monkey, who loves to climb. so mom uses chewy to save 40% on gifts that help keep the tree intact, and monkey good and grounded. for low prices... for holidays with pets, there's chewy.

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welcome back. time now for a look at other stories making headlines. israel is expanding ground operation in southern lebanon. troops are moving into villages farther from the border engaging in battles with hezbollah fighters. despite the expanding operation, u.s. officials have recently expressed some optimism over efforts to broker a cease-fire there. business inside new zealand's parliament came to a stop on thursday after opposition lawmakers protested a bill that would redefine the country's founding treaty with its indigenous people. [ screaming ]

>> lawmakers performed a traditional dance there to show their anger over the proposed legislation. the speaker temporarily stopped the session after one member tore up what appeared to be her copy of the bill which sparked the wider protest. coming up next, our guest will introduce us to the woman behind the most iconic and controversial magazine of all time. we will explain that next. time we will explain that next. have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. most plans include the humana healthy options allowance. a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month.

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oh, it's gratuitous because they didn't know whole picture. women who support women, women who see the beauty in women, why would you not want to support them? >> she changed my life. >> that issue is seen by an estimated 50 million people every year. one-third of them, women. that might not be what you would expect. but then again, julie campbell is not what you expect either. >> if you respect beauty, you've nourished your soul. oh, my god! this is how i feel again! >> welcome back to "morning joe." i'm here to take you through this next story.

you just saw a glimpse at the new documentary "beyond the gaze." julie campbell's swimsuit edition. the film, directed by julie's daughter-in-law, takes a look at the "sports illustrated" swimsuit issue. she navigated a sexist work environment while fighting accusations of objectification and she turned the swimsuit issue into a cultural phenomenon and empowering modeling like christie brinkley and tara banks and carol alt and many, many more. joining us now is the film's director jill campbell, along with the aforementioned model and actress carol alt who is featured in the film. also with us for this discussion is "forbes" women editor maggie

mcgraph. jill, i start with you. there is so much in this film that reflects and documents american society, history, and culture, but at its center is a pioneering woman professional. tell us why you decided to make a film about your mother-in-law joule who passed away two years ago at 96. what do you want want viewers to know about her? >> her story was never really told. she was planning to write a book and she never wrote the book so i kind of moved in her during the pandemic and she was so full of so many stories that i had never heard because she -- she would go away on trips and she would come home and she never wanted to talk about her job because she worked so hard and, you know, at times, her position was malaligned and she just wanted to chill out. yet, towards the ends of her life, she really wanted to share her story. we all need to learn from these empowering pioneering women right now.

>> we certainly do. carol, the footage of joule on set showed such a visionary but a protective force on for her models. what was it like for you to be on these shoots with her, especially a young woman navigating your own career? >> in a word, intimidating. first of all, i think i understood at an early age that "sports illustrated" could help my career and what joule did for the girls and for me personally, no other magazine at that time was doing. they put our name on the cover and created a personality. i remember the first time i was recognized, i thought, did i go to high school with you? why do you recognize me? the guys said aren't you on the cover of "sports illustrated"? you recognize me from that? your name was there. i realized how important it was. joule was an artist and every picture she took had a complete vision behind it. it wasn't like let's happen upon this or maybe this will turn out okay. i told jill a story where we

walked through the woods at 4:00 in the morning and the sun is coming up and we are rushing along and i'm going, where are we going to? we pop out on a beach and there on the beach is a boat the same color as the suit that i was wearing, the rainbow suit. so it was quite shocking how organized and how she had this complete vision of the story from beginning to end. >> lots of examples of that in the documentary. jill, talk to us about the criticism that joule faced and what did it mean to you to watch her break the glass ceiling in a male-dominated industry? >> i feel i'm walking in her shoes during this film right now because people ask me when i tell them ig dot 'm doing the fe you approaching the criticism? of course, we are looking at that. and, you know, she now used to protest her women thought that they was ing women.

she was actually celebrating women and she protected the women that she worked with. she used to pull gratuitous shots from the pile and would never let her male executive see them. she figured out how to navigate a 1960s sexist male work environment. i love "sports illustrated." it's a great magazine. but it was all men that she was working with. and she figured out not only how to be successful, but she created one of the most lucrative magazine issues in publishing history and because she was an artist and she was confident and she was a woman when had no self-esteem issues. >> that is such a good point. there are so many lessons that i think we can take from joule's career. carolyn, what lessons do you take from her life and career? >> ever since i worked with joule, i've always championed other women. when i see someone who might need some help or advice, i

always step in. i just do, because i had that from joule and i think that was a great gift from somebody who really just, you know, stepped forward and said, listen, you're too thin and joule is like a mother hen and i'm like that sometimes with the other girls, you know? she had her hip replaced and said do you need any help? you know? is that is something i learned from joule is to care and to really reach out to other women, because as women, we tend to not support each other and i think that is a big mistake because we could learn from each other and really advance and i think that is really important. >> absolutely. jill campbell and carol alt, maggie, thank you all. "beyond the gaze" will be playing at the documentary film

festival doc on november 17th and 18 and the film will continue to play at select theaters across the country and you can get all of the details at joule campbell.com and we will be back with much more "morning joe." "morning joe." (excited screaming) and with coal in the family, mom and dad used chewy to get everything delivered in time for the holidays. at prices everyone feels jolly about. (♪♪) for low prices and fast shipping. for holidays with pets, there's chewy. a bend with a bump in your erection might be painful, embarassing, difficult to talk about, and could be peyronie's disease or pd, a real medical condition that urologists can diagnose and have been treating for more than 8 years with xiaflex®, the only fda-approved nonsurgical treatment for appropriate men with pd. along with daily gentle penile stretching and straightening exercises, xiaflex has been proven to help gradually reduce the bend. don't receive if the treatment area involves your urethra;

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i'm going to let him go wild on health. i'm going to let him go wild on the food. i'm going to let him go wild on medicine. he really with the pesticides and all the different things. i said he can do it. he can do anything he wants.

he wants to look at the vaccines. he wants to -- everything. i think it's great. i think it's great. the only thing i say to bobby is leave the liquid gold under our feet alone. i want -- we want to have a little gasoline. let me tell you, he's a great guy, rfk. and he's going to do pretty much what he wants as far as i'm concerned. he wants health for women, for men, for children. and i happen to agree with a lot of the things he says. >> that's a look back at just some of donald trump's praise for his latest controversial cabinet pick. as he has chosen robert f. kennedy jr., an antivaccine activist, to lead the department of health and human services. we'll have much more about that selection straight ahead. meanwhile, on capitol hill, senators in both parties are demanding the release of an ethics report on trump's choice for attorney general. we'll show you what the lawmakers had to say about the

years long investigation into matt gaetz. and we'll bring you new reporting on why trump's relationship with north korean dictator kim jong-un could be different in his second term. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is friday, november 15th. i'm jonathan lemire in for joe, mika and willie. with us, a great group. we have nbc news national affairs analyst and a partner at -- and chief political columnist at "puck," john heilemann. pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post," eugene robinson. president emeritus of the council on foreign relations, richard haass, who is also the author of "the weekly newsletter home and away", which is available on sub stack. managing editor at "the bulwark," stam sign, am stein, wasted way too early." and susan page. we have a lot to get to.

let's dive in. republican and democratic senators are calling for the release of a house ethics committee report on matt gaetz, before his confirmation hearing process begins for attorney general. the bipartisan panel has been investigating gaetz off and on since back in 2021. most recently, it has been focusing on alleged sexual misconduct, illicit drug use, improper use of campaign funds, and accepting improper gifts. is that all? gaetz officially resigned yesterday from congress, a day before the panel planned to vote on whether to release its report. but, senators on capitol hill yesterday were demanding that that information still be made public. >> the timing of his resignation suggests he believes this report is not friendly and favorable. so i want to read the report, and find out what the investigation behind it brought

out. i'm asking for them to share that with the senate judiciary committee. i want to preserve this report. i want the documentation behind it and have a chance to review it carefully, both democrats and republicans. >> i think there should not be any limitation on the senate judiciary committee's investigation, including whatever the house ethics committee has generated. >> you want to see it? >> absolutely. >> matt gaetz has chosen to resign from the house, but he can't choose to conceal that information. i can name between five and ten republicans who are seriously considering voting against this nomination, and insisting that there be a vote. republicans as well as democrats are absolutely aghast at the idea that we would allow a recess appointment of the top

judicial officer in the united states of america, that is absolutely abhorrent to the powers and traditions of the united states senate and the constitution. >> do you have any concerns about someone who has been accused of sex trafficking possibly leading the department of justice? >> well, just to name one, matt gaetz comes to mind. i have concerns about him, about the way he disrupted and really destroyed the house of representatives for several months, what he did to a really good speaker in kevin mccarthy, and accomplished nothing except getting rid of him, and, you know, ruined the reputation of the house of representatives. >> let's underscore those are both democrats and republicans, calling for that information to be released. and house speaker kevin mccarthy, you heard his name, he also weighed in on matt gaetz's nomination yesterday during an interview he conducted with bloomberg news. >> what do you make of the choices so far? >> i think choices are very good except one.

look, gaetz won't get confirmed, everybody knows that. >> you say gaetz will not be confirmed. why bother with the nomination then? >> you can talk to the president, but it is -- >> how do you read it? >> it is a good deflection from others and it also gives -- i'll let it stand at that. >> just provide us some thinking into, you know, what trump had in mind when he made the nomination. is it a case of, you know, you win some, you lose some, it is a negotiating tactic, what is it? >> you would have to ask the president, gaetz couldn't win in a republican conference. >> no love lost between mccarthy and gaetz. mccarthy blames gaetz for his ouster. so, much to discuss here about this pick, john heilemann. you know, there is some reporting and people i talked to say that, you know, gaetz's nomination very much in doubt. we will see if that report is officially leaked or finds its way -- >> officially leaked. >> or finds its way into -- released or finds its way into reporters' hands. >> 0.0% chance that report will

not become public. one channel or the other. >> what sort of impact do you think it will have? >> i mean, let's just say it is not going to be good. i don't think the -- we know about this case, which isn't up close to everything is that it is going to be embarrassing for gaetz. i don't know if gaetz is embarrassable. it is not going to help. there is one question here, the question about whether the normal rules of political physics still apply in the senate and house. because this is -- trump could have 45 different motives for doing this, the main motive is the same for a lot of the nominations, which is the -- trump is trying to expand the power of the executive, trying to basically obviate the role of the senate, he would like to either in a defactor defacto wa dejury way. are they going to -- the question of recess appointments,

if trump could turn the senate into a rubber stamp, that's what he would like. this is the way of forcing that issue, not just gaetz but across the board on some of the less confirmable, obviously confirmable nominees. and i think that's -- we're going to -- very colorful, some very colorful nominations and lots to criticize in them, but the fundamental thing here is about trump's very early efforts to try to air gate more and more power to the office, to himself personally, but to the executive branch as a proxy for him. >> susan page, let's dive into that. this is such an early stress test on the republican-controlled senate and particularly its new majority leader, john thune. there was, you know, like thune wasn't trump's pick for that post. republicans defied him. but they did so with a secret ballot. it is very different now that they have to put their names to it. what is your sense as to their appetite for standing up to the ing president? >> let's count the ways in which republicans in the senate have stood up to donald trump. yeah. none, never, right? >> not too often.

>> not too often, right, and not in things that trump really cared about, like impeachment. so i would -- i think it is possible the senate wouldn't confirm matt gaetz. it is conceivable that they would. and i think it is also possible there is another repercussion to this, which is if, for some reason, matt gaetz does not get confirmed because the report ethics report is so explosive that he can't possibly continue with his nomination or because the senate actually refuses to confirm, i think that just really clears the way for these other appointments that maybe seem quite remarkable and out of the mainstream, but are not as bad as matt gaetz. maybe the second person gets nominated for ag or maybe tulsi gabbard, maybe other people get a pass because the senate in the end stands up to matt gaetz. >> right, they feel like they can stand up for -- against one and not others. in a moment, we'll talk to richard haass about having competence at the top of these hugely important departments. sam stein, let's talk more about the politics of it and in

particular this idea of recess appointments which has gotten a lot of buzz in recent days. what is the latest you and your team are hearing about whether that's a real thing and explain what it would look like. >> so, it is a real thing in that the trump people wanted it to happen if they can't get their nominees through. they weren't -- it wasn't a bluff. they're putting it out there. i think ideally what they would have happen is that threat would linger and that would prompt republicans to say, we don't want to blow up the institution, we should get these people confirmed through the old-fashioned way. what it would look like, though, is procedurally complicated to explain and difficult to understand. senate republicans would have to have a resolution from the house that allowed them to go to recess, they would vote on it, 50 vote threshold, the same exact threshold to confirm the nominees anyway. and so, you know, will they have the votes to do that? but not have the votes for the nominations themselves, it is hard to say. ultimately i think it is probably going to be that they just take the votes rather than

go to recess and they ultimately pass a lot of the nominees. but, look, gene, you and i were talking about this, it ultimately comes down to john thune and a couple other of his colleagues willing to say, you know what, we actually like our institutional powers, and we want to keep them and so therefore we should not do this. but there is no history of them actually having that type of spine. >> no. there is a history of senators feeling self-important. and feeling self-important for the institution. so there is that. and that's a real thing. but there is no history of them really standing up to donald trump. so, why would we expect them to do this. i think we should keep in mind that if they don't confirm or they let this linger somehow, they don't go to recess, there is a provision in the constitution, trump can adjourn congress. and, so, would he go that far?

well, he's gone as far as matt gaetz and tulsi gabbard, so why wouldn't he go that far? i don't think he's bluffing. >> no. and certainly i think there is also an element here of trump wanting to break the senate, break any chance of resistance that they might have going forward. but there would be, of course, legal challenges to recess appointments, potentially all the way to the supreme court. >> trump has some friends. >> very different. perhaps differently than has previously on this very issue. so, but it is not just about matt gaetz. that's not the only pick that trump has made that has gained -- garnered some real headlines and skepticism. another, robert f. kennedy jr., his choice for health and human services secretary. that came yesterday. that department oversees several agencies e e ing the centers for disease control and prevention and the food and drug administration. the position needs to be confirmed by the senate. kennedy aligned himself with trump after ending his own bid for president earlier this year.

he is an environmental lawyer, at one time respected for his work, who in recent years has become an outspoken conspiracy theorist. kennedy has criticized covid vaccines and childhood immunizations, falsely claiming they have ties to autism and other things. he's also promoted products and medicines that the fda has strictly warned against, such as raw milk. kennedy thanked president-elect trump for the nomination last night, writing on social media that he will, quote, clean up corruption, stop the revolving door between industry and government, and return our health agencies to the rich tradition of gold standard evidence-based science. we can certainly fact check that. the president-elect has had nothing but praise for kennedy and his ideas and the last few weeks. on the campaign trail, kennedy promised to let rfk jr., quote, go wild on medicine and last

night trump again touted his choice. >> today i nominated him for, i guess, if you like health, if you like people that live a long time, it is the most important position, rfk jr. bobby. [ cheers and applause ] and i just looked at the news reports, people like you, bobby. don't get too popular, bobby. you know, you reached about the level. no. we want you to come up with things and ideas and what you've been talking about for a long time, and i think you're going to do some unbelievable things. nobody's going to be able to do it like you and boy does he feel it in his heart. so congratulations also to your family. >> in the hours after, rfk jr.'s nomination, there was decidedly mixed reactions from lawmakers on capitol hill. while many democrats criticized

the choice, republicans for the most part appeared largely unbothered by the nomination. some even expressing enthusiasm. senator tommy tuberville called it a brilliant pick. while senator ron johnson called kennedy a courageous truth teller. senator rand paul, who mind you is a medical doctor, said kennedy would detox the department after the fauci era. richard haass, let's take a moment and talk about how consequential this pick is if indeed it comes to be. he would -- there was some talk he might be like a white house health czar with a nebulous role. this wouldn't require confirmation. this one does. and it is a huge post. we already know he's talked about everything from scaling back vaccines to taking fluoride out of the drinking water, lots of dangerous stuff. and at the end of the day, any president who would want to be served by competent people, the best of the best to head these

important agencies, would be hard pressed to argue that's what trump's doing with a number of the picks beginning with kennedy. >> beginning with kennedy and gaetz is a close second. there is questions of judgment and questions of managerial competence. these are big jobs, large numbers of agencies, large numbers of people, massive budgets, the idea that someone like kennedy could have this job, and talk about putting fox in charge of the hen house, he's supposed to save lives. if he were to implement some of his policies, people would die. particularly young people. they wouldn't get vaccinated. he's discrediting vaccinations. the idea you would put a conspiracy theorist in charge of this central department, we could go on and on. and matt gaetz ought to have this job because he understands criminality and so you put him in charge of the justice department. this is trolling the united states. what is missing from this, not just a question of competence and judgment, there is a question of seriousness. the u.s. government, like it or

not, is -- has an extraordinary influence in power. it reaches every part of our lives. tens of millions of people work for the government at one level or another. where is the seriousness, where is the sense of stewardship. these are not just appointments meant to troll. these are appointments meant to affect our lives on a daily basis and there is just a -- i'm struck by the lack of seriousness. >> i don't think you understand the nature of the project. the nature of the project is to destroy the government, not to, like, all -- this framework we all have, you know, these very important agencies and they do important work and you need to make them better, why aren't we taking them seriously it was a week into the trump administration when steve bannon said the thing about our goal is the deconstruction of the administrative state. that's what they're doing now. this is about tearing the government to pieces. they're not serious about making it better. they're serious about tearing it down. >> if they go in that direction and they might by the way, the whole idea of recess appointments, it is not -- it is a violation of a norm, the whole concept of recess appointment

was not meant to avoid advise and consent. that's another way you may be right. again, though, to destroy government and not put anything in its place, talk about then accountability for consequences. and the only problem is we would have to wait two or four years to have a chance to voice accountability. >> i'm not -- you and i are on the the same side here. the proper way to understand what they're doing is not -- if you're trying to evaluate how serious a pick is this person, how well would they run the department, matt gaetz said publicly he wants to shut down the doj. and that's -- he's pretty clear about that. and now he's being appointed to do it. >> trump's more controversial elections are to head the agencies he cares most about, that he thinks represents the deep state, doj, the intelligence srs ervices, the health because of the way the pandemic was handled, and the department of defense. there is a bunch of voices coming out against kennedy's nomination. one notable one, one surprising one, the editorial board of "the

new york post," out with a piece this morning with this headline. putting rfk jr. in charge of health breaks the first rule of medicine. the board writes in part this, the overriding rule of medicine is first do no harm. we're certain installing robert f. kennedy jr. to head health and human services breaks this rule. we sat down with rfk back in may 2023, when it came to the topic of health, his views were a head-scratching spaghetti of whatwarped conspiracy theories and not just on vaccines. neocons responsible for policy ills, pesticides, cell phones, he told us with full conviction, all of america's chronic health problems began in one year in the 1980s, when a dozen bad things happened. in fact, we came out thinking

he's nuts on a lot of fronts. a radical prolonged and confused transition ordered by a guy like rfk jr. who will use his high office to spout his controversial beliefs leaves a lot of room for things to go wrong and for people to wind up harmed or even dead. extraordinarily strong words from "the new york post." usually cheer leads trumps in a paper that donald trump cares very much about. joining us to talk about this, dr. kavita patel, msnbc medical contribute and former obama white house health policy director. dr. patel, thank you so much for joining us this morning. let's start here, with what we know of robert f. kennedy's health beliefs and the policy changes he wants to implement, just what sort of impact would that have on americans, particularly our children? >> yeah, jonathan, it is a pretty seismic shift in health

policy, period. public health policy certainly because this appointment could lead to just an elevation of all of these, like, prominent vaccine skeptics, disinformation. to your point about children, all we have to do is look at the state of florida where the surgeon general had been incredibly relaxed about vaccines, not even vaccine mandates, he was incredibly lax about active measle cases and parents should decide if you can send your child to school. i don't think it is trivial to say this is undermining the future of several generations. think about how long it has taken to end literally polio, measles, vaccines can eradicate these diseases, and now we'll see not only, again, an elevation of nothing related to science, not evidence-based approaches, but a dismantling of that critical public health infrastructure and coming out of covid, thinking about all the breadth we have of health in general, i can't think of a time

we needed trust in health institutions and there is just not going to be any of that with a secretarial appointment at this level. >> dr. patel, let me start -- sam stein, first of all. that "new york post" op-ed is the equivalent of being surprised that the leopard ate your face. we all knew this was going to happen if trump was going to be elected. he had said explicitly that bobby kennedy was going to get a high ranking appointment. for "the post" to be shocked by this by somebody who said he had a brain worm, talked about taking roadkill bear and placing it in central park and carved off a whale head, some of the more lunatic things he's done, it doesn't pass muster. i will say one element that gets overlooked here is that hhs does have broad oversight over a huge swath of government. among them, nih, the leading provider of grants for scientific research in the world. robert f. kennedy jr. is on

record saying he would stop investment in infectious disease research for eight years. eight years. just no infectious disease research for the united states to pay for. can you speak a little bit to how we would have an absolute brain drain in this country if that were to happen, scientists, researchers, basically looking for grant money would leave america, go to canada, go to korea, go to anywhere else that would pay for the research, and we would be put on the back burner in terms of scientific discovery in this country. >> and it gets even worse than that. he also mentioned this is when he was running for president, he mentioned not just research around antibiotics or microbial diseases, he made a comment about drug development in general. think about the progress we have made against diseases. when i started in medical school and it was -- it was a bit of a time ago, wasn't that long ago, someone with advanced stage lung cancer, it was essentially a death sentence.

now we have incredible monochromal antibodies, generic therapies, cystic fibrosis, the list goes on of things we can do. we can talk about drug prices in a separate topic, there is no question innovation is incredible. taking that innovation and basically saying that we're going to export it, and not fund it is not only dangerous, it is putting forward misinformation. sam, i was one of the people that discredited the idea of him getting the cabinet position, because i thought managing 11 agencies like medicare, medicaid, nih, that's hard work and it didn't strike me that rfk wanted to do hard work. put me in the category of shocked and surprised that he got that pick. i worked in and around those agencies, it is hard work and it is not something that is for the light hearted, because you're also negotiating with congress on how to actually defend and

get more money. before i worked in the white house, i worked for ted kennedy, he is turning in his grave thinking about dismantling the institutions he fought for funding like the nih. you can zero out the budgets, something you can see a secretary like kennedy actually recommending to the president, to submit in his annual recommendations for a budget. that alone can set back, again. it is not trivial to say generations. i think that what i'm looking for next is who are the appointments to run these agencies under an rfk jr. that's going to be very interesting to see who has to kiss the ring and say that they agree with these policies. and then go run the fda. can you imagine? >> coming up, a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning, including an fbi raid in new york city with ties to those controversial online betting markets around the presidential election. "morning joe" is back in a moment. election "morning joe" is back in a moment

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fun recip... (high pitched sound) (high pitched sound) (high pitched sound) welcome back. let's -- time now for a look at some of the other headlines making headlines this morning. the fbi seized the cell phone and other devices of shayne coplan, the ceo of the online betting site polymarket. that happened yesterday at a raid at his new york city apartment. the company, of course, hosted millions of dollars in wagers on

the presidential race without clear insight on who was putting up the money. he has not yet been arrested or charged. a lot we don't know yet about this particular investigation. elsewhere, new research shows that nearly three-quarters of american adults are overweight or obese. that's a sharp increase from the year 1990, when just over half of adults met that metric. the study's authors were particularly alarmed by the steep rise in obesity among children, noting the far reaching implications on medical costs. and tonight, former heavyweight champion mike tyson will go toe to toe with jake paul, yeah, jake paul, a youtube celebrity turned boxer. the fight will stream on netflix, a major change from the traditional pay-per-view format. at 58 years old, tyson is more than three decades older than his opponent. adding to the hype, tyson slapped paul for stepping on his foot at their prefight weigh-in

last night. the match is being held at at&t stadium in arlington, texas. coming up, our next guest says one particular phrase should be banned by cable news. former "time" editor rick stengel explains what that is. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." what that is. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." 0% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything! ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates)

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the wonderful wizard of oz, summons you to the emerald city. think of what we could do... together. as trump prepares to move into the white house again, his team is looking to push back on some of his more campaign -- more partisan campaign promises. in the leadup to the election, trump repeatedly said he would pardon the rioters convicted for their actions during the january 6th insurrection. >> "time" asked you if you would consider pardoning all of the rioters. you said, yes, absolutely, you called them patriots. officers were assaulted that day.

there were broken bones, one officer lost an eye, one had two cracked ribs, two smashed spinal discs, another had a stroke. were the people who assaulted those 140 officers, including those i just mentioned patriots who deserve pardons? my question is on those rioters who assaulted officers? would you pardon those people? >> absolutely, i would. >> you would pardon those -- >> if they're innocent, i would pardon them. >> you heard trump there, very clear of what he would do. yesterday, a campaign spokeswoman distanced the trump transition team from that promise. telling nbc news that president trump will make pardon decisions on a case by case basis. eugene robinson, that's a pretty broad metric there and, you know, certainly wouldn't be

shocking if the president-elect once he takes office goes, well, they were all wrongfully imprisoned. >> yeah, he could do that. look, the range of possibilities is from a total blanket pardon, it was a day of love, and they're all pardoned. or no pardons, you know. one or two. who knows if he's going to do it case by case, that means whim by whim in donald trump's world. and so we have no idea what he's going to do. the idea that this is even a thing, that this is even being considered is ridiculous and outrageous, but it's what he said he would do and imagine, you know, what about the cases that haven't been brought yet. they're never going to get brought under matt gaetz if he becomes attorney general. so, this is where we are. this is what people unfortunately voted for, he said he's going to do this and he's going to do it.

>> coming up, our next guest was the acting director of the cdc. dr. richard besser joins us with his thoughts on donald trump's nominee to oversee america's healthcare. that's next on "morning joe." as healthcare that's next on "morning joe. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help.

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(intercom) t minus 10... (janet) so much space! that open kitchen! (tanya) ...definitely the one! (ethan) but how can you sell your house when we're stuck on a space station for months???!!! (brian) opendoor gives you the flexibility to sell and buy on your timeline. (janet) nice! (intercom) flightdeck, see you at the house warming. dude? dog food in the fridge? it's not dog food. it's freshpet. real meat. real veggies. real weird. he was bad luck anyway.

beautiful shot of the white house. president biden, though, not currently home. he's overseas. and set to meet with chinese president xi jinping tomorrow in peru. it will be their first in person meeting since they met in california almost exactly a year ago. the next u.s. president to meet with xi, of course, will be donald trump. however, the dynamic in the far east since they last met has changed dramatically in the past

four years. joining us live now from beijing is nbc news international correspondent janis mackey freyer. preview for us if you will the meeting between xi and biden tomorrow, but also what this relationship between the china and the united states will look like once donald trump returns to office. >> reporter: jonathan, one of the more challenging foreign policy issues we know facing any u.s. president is north korea. and while president-elect trump has said that kim jong-un misses him, it isn't clear whether that is the case because kim is now emboldened and no longer alone. donald trump has long touted his personal touch, with leaders like xi jinping, vladimir putin, and kim jong-un. >> i got to know a lot of the foreign leaders. let me tell you, unlike our leader, they're at the top of their game.

>> reporter: in his second presidency, it is a different world trump is facing. with u.s. officials saying thousands of north korean troops are preparing to fight with russian forces in kursk, north korean weapons already on the battlefield. and more nuclear capable missiles being tested. south korea's military intelligence agency also warned last month that a seventh nuclear test could be coming. kim jong-un has been imboldoned by the priss teeth estige by hic ties to russia, that hardened his stance against the u.s. it is a pivot from the optics of trump's first term, when it was all smiles, flattery and letters. >> we go back and forth and then we fell in love. okay? >> reporter: that took a turn in 2019, when trump at a summit in hanoi abruptly broke off talks with kim. now that he's tight with putin, analysts say kim may not be quick to rekindle a friendship with trump. >> the strategic value of the united states for pyongyang has

gone down considerably. north korea has no reason to talk about denuclearization. any talks on denuclearization, kim jong-un has no reason to show up. >> reporter: tension is now tearing at the korean peninsula, where in the last year kim has called off the goal of unification. even blowing up roads near the border and declaring seoul a permanent enemy. it is all a concern here in china, that north korean troops could expand the war in europe and pull asia into it. chinese officials avoid commenting on the putin/kim partnership, saying their bilateral relationship is their business. yet as the economic lifeline to both russia and north korea, china has the clout. they're just not using it, despite pressure from the u.s. to do more. >> obviously we would hope that china would use its influence with the russian government to cease and desist. but i don't think that's happening.

it is unfortunate. >> reporter: in that sense, china presents a dilemma for trump, who said he could end the war in ukraine. but may find the road to a deal goes through beijing. >> there are so many things that need china, u.s. to cooperate. >> reporter: as trump makes his return to the world stage, he'll be surrounded by familiar faces. but with kim's nuclear advances, and his troops aiding russia against u.s.-armed ukraine, the stakes for trump's second term are edging higher. given the uncertainty that is lingering around continued u.s. support for ukraine, analysts in seoul now say the government there is reconsidering whether they're going to send weapons to kyiv. and until there is some sort of clarity on what the trump administration is going to do. in the meantime, the office of south korean president confirms that he recently started practicing golf to prepare for future meetings with mr. trump.

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welcome back. an update now on a story we have been covering here on "morning joe" about the landmark legislation pepfar. it is the acronym for president's emergency plan for aids relief, which was signed into law in 2003 by then president george w. bush and the largest commitment from any nation to combat a single disease. the program funds antiretro viral treatment for more than 20 million people across 50 countries. and pepfar's global success has transcended party politics until now. its reauthorization has become a bargaining chip in the heated partisan culture wars.

nbc news congressional correspondent julie tsirkin has the latest. >> reporter: hey, guys. the fate of this life-saving program is still at stake. now that all three branches of government are under republican control. but the cultural issue holding pepfar hostage could come to an end with donald trump back in the white house. if it does, experts and republican lawmakers worry that all of the progress made to combat this disease will go away. it is difficult to picture the despair across the globe two decades ago. the hiv/aids epidemic hit african countries the hardest. mass graves lining the streets, many of them holding the bodies of parents, their orphans now left behind. today the deadly virus has been greatly suppressed, thanks to the most successful global health program ever that for the first time is under threat. >> it saved 25 million lives. it is no longer a death sentence. >> reporter: it is why president george w. bush signed the pepfar

program into law on may 27th, 2003. barbara lee was there. >> i was definitely against almost every policy that he put forward. but on this issue, it was about saving lives and it was about the quality of life and it was about the richest and the most powerful country in the world doing something. >> reporter: it was a bipartisan compromise, a deal struck by a now unimaginable pairing of a conservative president and nearly all lawmakers on capitol hill. >> the president of botswana told me that you have, in your country, have saved a generation in my country from extinction. if you think about that, a whole generation from extinction, that's what this program has done. there is no other program that does this. it is the most successful global health program in the world. and that's why it is important to continue it. >> reporter: u.s. funding for pepfar totals $120 billion to fight aids, tuberculosis and

malaria. the program saved more than 25 million lives, and prevented millions of hiv infections. congress reauthorized pepfar on a five-year bipartisan basis, until now. the reason, a debate over reproductive access, with some republicans suggesting the program's funds could be used for abortion. >> i strongly supported pepfar when it was created in 2003 and i was the sponsor of the reauthorization of pepfar in 2018. regrettably it has been reimagined, hijacked by the biden administration to empower pro abortion international ngos deviating from its life affirming work. >> reporter: the gop foreign relations chair disagrees. >> it is very clear they cannot use the money coming from the united states for the purpose of abortion. and that's by federal law. >> reporter: and so does lindsey graham, two powerful republicans who witnessed pepfar's success firsthand. >> there are so many people alive today. if you're pro-life, this is a

great pro-life program. >> reporter: right wing groups like the heritage foundation are blaming the biden administration for misusing pepfar, as a -- >> vehicle to promote a radical agenda that simply is so divisive here in the united states. and is completely rejected by people overseas, especially in africa. >> reporter: these groups also want countries benefiting from the program to pay into it, even though many already do. >> we're in year 23 of what is an emergency program. that's the e in pepfar. after spending $120 billion, these countries, most of these countries are unable to manage the pepfar funds themselves. >> reporter: south africa, ground zero for the hiv/aids epidemic funds 70% of its work to combat the disease. dr. dave clark says he has never seen pepfar dollars misused. >> it would be clearly wrong to say that these funds are being used illicitly for abortion type of work. the money is being deployed

where it needs to be deployed, in dealing with the hiv epidemic and getting it under control. >> reporter: as coo of a leading health organization in the battle against the disease, clark says one year reauthorization of the program will lead to deadly consequences. >> so the decision to move on a year by year basis drives uncertainty and a bit like any stock market, uncertainty drives risk and risk -- the risk, were it to continue, will we have support, won't we have support, the control we have will break down again and fail rapidly and we'll see people then, the infection rates and the incidents of the disease climb again. so, it is not time to stop. >> reporter: the only hope for the bipartisan program is the bipartisan solution to save it. now, here's something to keep in mind. the president-elect's pick for secretary of state marco rubio, he's a big supporter of this program. but he did accuse the biden administration of conditioning pepfar on, quote, the leftist priorities like abortion and

gender identity. as you heard, experts deny that accusation, but it is a sign that under the trump administration that vows to end any diversity and inclusion efforts, pepfar could be fully reauthorized next year. back to you. >> our thanks to julie tsirkin for that reporting. we'll continue to follow the fate of this critical program closely. coming up here on "morning joe," we'll also bring you a conversation with the top democrat on the house intelligence committee, congressman jim himes weighs in on the president-elect's picks to run the nation's spy agencies. that's when "morning joe" comes right back. encies that's when "morning joe" comes right back t, and could be peyronie's disease or pd, a real medical condition that urologists can diagnose and have been treating for more than 8 years with xiaflex®, the only fda-approved nonsurgical treatment for appropriate men with pd. along with daily gentle penile stretching and straightening exercises, xiaflex has been proven to help gradually reduce the bend. don't receive if the treatment area involves your urethra;

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some americans appear to have second-guessed their choice for president. according to google on election day in the states trump won, searches skyrocketed for the phrase, how to change my vote. there aren't many things that explain this election better than people who believe voting is more flexible than uber eats. you can't change your vote.

on friday night, the highly anticipated boxing match between mike tyson and jake paul -- you know, the fight was originally scheduled for july, but it got delayed because tyson was having medical issues and might have to be delayed again if either mike or jake paul get nominated for cabinet positions tomorrow. >> it doesn't sound so far-fetched now, does it? welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it is 6:00 a.m. on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. here on the east on this friday morning. i'm jonathan. we have special correspondent at "vanity fair" and host of the fast politics podcast, molly, member of "the new york times" editorial board, mara, and former undersecretary of state for public diplomacy and public affairs, rick stengel. let's dive into our headlines this hour. president-elect donald trump is facing opposition from both republicans and democrats over some of his cabinet picks including the controversial

nomination of robert f kennedy jr. peter alexander has the latest. >> reporter: president-elect trump hosting allies and his transition team at mar-a-lago praising one choice that's causing controversy. >> rfk jr. >> reporter: robert f. kennedy junior, an environmental lawyer and anti-vaccine activist as the head of health and human services. people like you, bobby. don't get too popular. >> reporter: he's committed to help make america healthy again. kennedy endorsed trump after ending his third-party presidential bid with a potential role in his administration. >> i'm going to let him go wild on health. >> reporter: kennedy says he's

not against vaccines. >> i'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. i've never been anti-vaccine. >> reporter: in fact, he's frequently pushed false and misleading claims about vaccines. >> there's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. >> reporter: raising eyebrows last year with a false conspiracy theory that covid was designed to target certain ethnicities. >> covid-19 is targeted to attack caucasians and black people. the people most immune are chinese. >> reporter: he's shared conspiracy theories pesticides and plastic could affect children's sexuality. now kennedy's previewed some actions trump may take including advising all u.s. water systems to remove fluoride that experts say is a public health benefit. kennedy also won popularity by focusing on nutrition and promising an overhaul of the

fda. in october singling out what he called the agency's suppression of psychedelics, raw milk, clean foods, sunshine, and anything else that advances human health. some of trump's other picks also facing new scrutiny including pete hegseth, his choice for defense secretary. overnight officials in monterey,cal ka, releasing information from a police report confirming hegseth was involved in a sexual assault investigation in 2017. it's unclear what hegseth's involvement was in the investigation. the trump transition team saying hegseth has vigorously denied any and all accusations and no charges were filed. >> that was nbc's peter alexander with that reporting. and also facing some really tough scrutiny, trump's selection of conservative fire brand and now former florida congressman matt gaetz for attorney general. gaetz is facing growing backlash from both democrats and republicans with one gop lawmaker saying he absolutely

wants to review an unreleased report examining allegations of sexual misconduct. a lawyer for an alleged victim also called for the report to be made public posting this on social media. mr. gaetz's likely nomination as attorney general is a perverse development in a truly dark series of events. we would support the house ethics committee immediately releasing their report. she was a high school student and there were witnesses. gaetz denies those allegations. joining us now democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut. he is the ranking member on the house intelligence committee. congressman, thank you so much for being here this morning. let's start with your former colleague, matt gaetz. give us your impressions of him as someone there you have gotten to know, at least to a degree, in the lower chamber, whether you think he's qualified for this post, and what kind of nomination -- what kind of signal does this nomination send? >> we're going to be answering

this question for the next 50 years, you know. matt gaetz is probably the single most ludicrous, random and dangerous attorney general nomination made in this country in 250 years. and it by the way, the second and third most absurd nominations are probably tulsi gabbard and robert f. kennedy. you know, this is the truth doesn't matter thing that donald trump has always lived for. the problem is truth does matter at the department of justice, in the intelligence community, and in the administration of our public health. people die when you get these things wrong. now, look, like i said, we could spend the next 50 years, as i suspect donald trump wants us to do, pulling our hair out over matt gaetz. what's really interesting to me is the test we're going to see in the next coming months in the united states senate. there's not a republican in the building who thinks matt gaetz or tulsi gabbard are a good idea. when the time comes to confirm them, are they going to, you know, think about their role as a check and a balance on the

president, on this president in particular, or are they just going to say, yes, sir, donald trump, send us more clowns. we'll do whatever you want. i fear that the answer is the second thing. and it's going to be shocking if that is the outcome, if the united states senate -- if that's where they go, donald trump owns the congress of the united states, and that's not something that i think most people wanted to sign up for. >> so gaetz, understandably, has received the lion's share of attention the last couple of days. let's zero in on tulsi gabbard. you are on the house intelligence committee. talk to us about, you know, not just -- i know you believe she's not qualified, but some have said she actually poses a national security risk. do you agree? >> she does and i -- tulsi was a little bit less of a high-profile figure than matt gaetz who was an obvious agent of chaos in the house of representatives, but tulsi had her presidential run. all three of these candidates are dedicated to the promotion

of conspiracy theories. in tulsi's case she actually promoted the theory that in ukraine there were united states-funded bioweapons labs, and that's maybe one of the reasons russia invaded. rfk, we don't need to get into his conspiracy theories. the temperament to be a leader in a life-or-death department or agency, someone who is skeptical, who really is committed to the truth and the evidence and, by the way, a willingness to tell the president of the united states, your boss, what is true. none of these nominees are going to fall into that category. again, rfk and tulsi and matt have all been purveyors of conspiracy theories and that could have unfairly prosecuted americans or wars we don't want to be into. these are hugely sensitive roles for people that have shown the inability to stick to the truth. >> and we already know that donald trump has expressed great skepticism about the intelligence community including

when he was standing next to vladimir putin in helsinki. gabbard, gaetz, and kennedy. there are some questions about a fourth, the president-elect's choice to head the pentagon, pete hegseth. it was just mentioned in the peter alexander package, a criminal report he was involved in, but also just setting that aside, real questions about his qualifications to run the nation's largest bureaucracy. >> yeah, you know, i don't know pete hegseth. i know the others, not rfk, but i know tulsi and matt pretty well. i don't know pete hegseth. what i do know, there is no organization on the planet, bar none, no organization more complicated -- and, by the way, more in need of really thoughtful and tough leadership than the department of defense. it is the most complicated organism on the planet. my understanding is mr. hegseth has run precisely no organizations ever. look, he's a handsome guy. he was on tv. my guess is that's why he is the

nominee, but, man, that is going to be one heck of a job for a man who has never managed to run anything. >> ranking member of the house intelligence committee, democratic congressman jim himes of connecticut covering a lot of ground for us this morning. congressman, thank you. >> thank you. in a moment we'll bring in dr. richard besser who was acting director of the cdc to weigh in on the kennedy pick. rick stengel, let's talk about some of the other choices, maybe tulsi gabbard to start. i know this is something you have experienced in this world. what are your concerns about trump's pick here? >> i'm going to go high with this because part of this is the attack on experts, something donald trump and other authoritarians have done because if you attack and besmirch an expert, when that person attacks you, people think it doesn't mean anything. all of these people lack the expertise to run the agency. the congressman was saying none of them have run large

organizationings. would donald trump hire someone in the trump corporation to run building who had never lifted a shovel before or run an organization? that's a part of expertise as well and one of the things about tulsi gabbard, as you mentioned, and i have no idea what her connections to russia are, but she has mouthed and copied and imitated russian propaganda. the russians take notice. if you notice they have been touting tulsi gabbard as this kind of savior. that's a problematic thing particularly with our allies who want to share information with us, do they want to share information with us where the head of the dni is someone the russian media is praising day in and day out? they don't. >> mara, we were talking earlier about some of the trump picks, and the point seems to be for them not to lead the agencies but rather to destroy them, the deconstruction of the government, of the deep state in their parlance. it seems like these picks, particularly kennedy, gabbard

and matt gaetz, are trying to do just that. >> i think it does help to have a global perspective here. i'm not an expert in that, but just having read over the years of the trump era we've been in about how authoritarians actually gain and maintain power in other countries around the world. a lot of it has to do with weaponizing democratic institutions against democracy, which is exactly what donald trump is attempting to do. and, of course, in his case this is about also personal retribution for agencies that have investigated him, that have tried to hold him accountable but the only point of hope i would say in this moment, and i think it's important to maintain some hope amongst the shock we're all feeling is these are individuals who have very little experience, if any, running any organization. it's going to be very difficult for them at least initially, i believe, to come in and enact sweeping kinds of bureaucratic

change that are going to overnight redirect these agencies against the american state and people. that may not last forever, but there is some hope there. there are a lot of really amazing public servants at these agencies, and we're going to be relying on them. the people who trump has described as the deep state more than ever. >> rick stengel, i have a question for you. sorry. you talked about what the media missed. i wonder if you could talk about the way in which democrats were unwilling or unable to engage with this enormous media complex that is everything from joe rogan to theo vaughn. >> part of it is we spent a lot of time in media looking at each other rather than looking outward. i remember years ago watching a nature documentary, gigantic schools of fish that turn on a dime, and the narrator said the reason is they're looking at each other. they're not looking out.

that's what we do. we read each other all the time. what did mara say? we're looking at our own media filter bubble, so we're missing a lot of the other stuff. we're missing voters. in fact, even by covering trump so relentlessly, it makes us miss the people who want to vote for him, what are they thinking about? i do think we're in our own filter bubble, and we don't always realize it. >> certainly, though, there are fears of congressional bureaucrats, some of them heading for the exits of who might be coming in now. joining us, normer acting director of the cdc, dr. richard vasser. thank you so much for being with us this morning, doctor. let's just start with your reaction to donald trump's selection of robert f. kennedy jr., a vaccine skeptic, just to mention one of his potential problematic beliefs as he heads into running the nation's health

industry. >> jonathan, i think it's absolutely chilling and could impact the lives of everyone in america. my main focus in thinking about this is the public health system and the importance public health plays in everybody's lives. and we saw a real drop in people's trust in public health during the covid pandemic because of how politics got in the way. public health officials across the country at the federal level, state, local level, left their jobs. many forced out. many leaving because of the threats to their work, to their families, to their lives. we now see someone being nominated for that job who has done more than just about anybody to instill mistrust in our vaccine system. i practiced pediatrics for more than 30 years, and i know there was nothing that i did as a pediatrician that had more

proven benefit to the chirp i was taking care of than making sure they were vaccinated fully and on time, and there was nothing that gave a parent more comfort than knowing that when they sent their child to kindergarten, the children sitting around them were fully vaccinated and weren't going to give their kids measles or whooping cough or something else because their parents just decided because they didn't want to vaccinate. >> to exactly that point, let's keep this development in mind as we discuss kennedy's nomination, the number of measles cases around the world rose by 20% last year leading to an estimated 10 million cases. according to the world health organization and the cdc, inadequate immunization coverage is the primary reason behind that surge. an infected person can spread the highly contagious disease up to 90% of people close to them if they are not immune. the disease resulted in nearly 108,000 deaths last year, mostly killing children under the age of 5. and, dr. besser, to me, that's

the hardest part of this. you touched upon it, the social contract that americans have, american parents have, they can send their children to school or to baseball practice or whatever it might be knowing that they'll be safe, that they are immunized, everyone around them is, and now that is really called into question here and that's on diseases that we largely thought we had gotten control of. and let's almost shudder to think about what happens if another pandemic arrives. >> i think this is a critical piece of the conversation. one of the things that concerns me about someone who spreads misinformation is that sprinkled in with their misinformation are little bits of truth and good ideas, and that's the case here. rfk jr. has lifted up the importance of us looking at chronic diseases in children and addressing that. that's a really good thing. he's lifted up the importance of looking at nutrition. that's a really good thing.

but when you put this together with some of his solutions, wiping out whole departments of agencies in the federal government, that's really scary because we have incredible systems that are designed to promote the health, protect the health of people in america, and casting doubt on the people in those jobs, casting doubt on the work that they do, is really bad because it will lead people to make bad decisions about their health. >> really an important conversation here. former acting director of the cdc and president and ceo of the robert wood johnson foundation, dr. richard besser. doctor, thank you. >> thank you. >> and, rick stengel, we also talked earlier in the show about one of ken nedykennedy's other s is to cut, to slash, funding into medical research. so not only does that pose that much more of a health risk, people who are sick currently or could get sick down the road, it could lead to some of our best scientists and doctors leaving the country.

>> yes. john, that seems like a terrible idea. one of the things we've bemoaned is we don't put enough money in research. one of the experiences i had in government, the bureaucracy of the state department, the only people who know how to change it and evolve it and cut it are people who understand that bureaucracy already. when you come in from the outside to such a huge thing as hhs, it's a multibillion dollar entity, you have no idea what to cut or even what people do. we need people from the inside who are reformers. we can't always be defending the status quo. we need to change the status quo, but experts are the ones who can change it best. >> i could not agree more. everybody state put. coming up, shares of vaccine makers fell on the news of trump nominating rfk jr. to lead the department of health and human services. we'll get reaction from wall street straight ahead. plus, has streaming finally supplanted linear television? according to disney's quarterly earnings, it may just have.

cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, we're pleased to say, will join us next to dig into those numbers. as we go to break, on "sunday today" catch willie's conversation with actor hugh grant on his four decade run of unforgettable movies and the buzz around his chilling performance in a dark new thriller. this will be a good one. that will be over on nbc this sunday. we'll be right back here with more "morning joe" in just a moment.

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>> i don't know about y'all, but i am closing my twitter account. >> reporter: users of x, formerly twitter, saying they're done with the platform on the eve of a big change. the company will adopt new terms ever service that explicitly state, by using x, you're agreeing to let your posts be used to train a.i., with seemingly no way to opt out. >> that means if you've posted some text, a photo, a video, x can suck that up and put it into its large language model training base. >> reporter: so x could know personal information about you and create content using your image, even prior to these new terms, the day after the election x lost more users than any day since elon musk bought it in 2022. >> there are few things fueling this exodus. the first is the change in terms of service. the other is just the presence of elon musk and what has happened to the platform and the overwhelming amount of content there that is really focused on the president, donald trump, full right-wing information

conspiracy theories and posts. >> reporter: other social media sites are reaping the benefits. blue sky welcoming 2.5 million new users and meta's threads up 15 million in november alone. >> nbc's savannah sellers with that report. molly, i certainly have lost a lot of followers in the last week or so. i think it's a variety of reasons, the toxicity, the right-wing politics of elon musk, some russian bots some say were deactivated after the election. this a.i. is pretty scary. >> i didn't know about it. it's quite scary. i have to say i like spending much of my internet time on blue sky and it's wonderful and it's like early twitter. it's all the weirdness and all the smart people and a lot of people i remember from early twitter, and it's really -- i think it's really great. it's weirdly -- even though threads has this meta muscle behind it, blue sky is much easier to use once you get on there. >> that was not a paid advertisement. >> sorry. >> as for the owner of x, let's

get into this. the new department of government efficiency that musk will be heading alongside vivek ramaswamy is already seeking job applications. the goal is to slash government spending and it posted on x yesterday stating that it was looking for, quote, superhigh-iq, small-government revolutionaries willing to work 80 plus hours per week on unglamorous cost cutting. just one big catch. musk has said the jobs would be unpaid but they would, quote, greatly help america. we should note, of course, this is not a government agency. it's more of a blue ribbon panel. speaking of musk, the billionaire ceo has been by trump's side since the election, and continues to be one of his closest confidants. nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles has a look at their looming relationship. >> reporter: president donald trump is all in on elon musk. >> you know i'm a person who believes in high iqs and his is

about as high as they get. >> reporter: the world's richest man betting big on his fellow billionaire. and offering up his help to correct the economic direction of the country. >> how much do you think we can rip out of this wasted $6.5 trillion harris/biden budget? >> i think we can do at least $2 trillion. >> yeah! >> reporter: musk is making his presence known in trump world. sources tell nbc news he's a near constant presence at the mar-a-lago transition hq. >> i can't get him out of here. he just likes this place. and you know what, i like having him here, too. >> reporter: he traveled with trump for his first trip back to washington since his election victory. and in a report, not confirmed by nbc news, "the new york times" citing two iranian officials that says that musk met with the ambassador to the united nations in an attempt to smooth tensions between the countries. trump also reportedly handed the phone to musk while talking to

ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy. but musk's close access to trump does not come without potential problems. the billionaire's various companies have major contracts with the federal government. his company spacex has received billions of dollars if federal projects. >> are you kidding me? >> reporter: his company, tesla, sells more electric cars than any other company. if trump slashes the federal incentives for evs, it could make it more difficult for other carmakers to enter the market. on capitol hill republicans seem open to letting the successful businessman have a crack at finding ways to make government work better. >> with his leadership and cutting waste in the government, just as he's taken us to the stars, it's the ability to cut and turbocharge this economy. >> reporter: while democrats remain skeptical. >> we all want government efficiency. in the past that has failed miserably, but let's see what he comes up with. >> let's bring in the co-anchor of cnbc's squawk box" for our

daily elon musk segment, andrew ross tsirkin. he is perhaps getting on donald trump's nerves. there's only one star in donald trump's sky and that's him. in terms of doge, the effort to cut government costs, or this new feature on twitter causing people to flee the program. >> look, by the way, he was also, according to jonathan swann and maggie hagerman, on the plane when the decision was made that matt gaetz was going to be the attorney general. i think you're seeing his influence not just as it comes to government efficiency but in the posts and the postings of this next administration. as to the issue of twitter real quick, one of the other interesting sort of wrinkles in the story about why some people are leaving, and it's one of the

reasons don lemon left, is the company and its terms of service now require all lawsuits to go through texas where he is based. specifically where spacex is based and where the courts, if you understand the sort of background of all of this, may be more favorable to him. so to the extent you would ever want to bring a suit against twitter or x for whatever reason, it is unclear whether you would be in a friendly court insofar as that's an issue. in don lemon's case he's involved in an ongoing dispute with elon musk. and then, as it relates to the bigger question about what his role and influence and how it relates to his companies, which is what i think a lot of people are looking at, tesla stock is up over 30, almost 40% in the past couple of weeks now, and one of the reasons mentioned in the report, this idea that tariffs -- not tariffs, rather,

but subsidies may go away to the automakers. so ford and gm would actually struggle. the tariffs on chinese ev makers might get put up and that would also protect tesla. maybe more importantly, and more interestingly and potentially concerning, depending on how you think about it, his influence over ntsa, the agency that oversees safety on the roads and whether his autopilot service and autonomous vehicles will get approved on a national level, how that will work, and, again, how somebody who is in the industry will have enormous influence over his own regulator. >> so, andrew, we spent a lot of time talking about the implications of robert f. kennedy jr.'s nomination to head hhs, but there is a fallout here for the stocks of vaccine makers. tell us about that. >> a huge fallout. you're already seeing pfizer, moderna, most of the companies that make vaccines losing in the

premarket today on the back of this news because there's a sense and a view, i believe rightly, some of the requirements around vaccines may be either removed or just the messaging that's going to go around the kunl try around vaccines may flip the switch. that is a real issue. most people in the health care industry did not believe he was actually going to get this hhs job. they thought he was going to be an adviser or some kind of czar in the white house. in fact, howard lutnik, you showed a video of earlier, was asked whether he would become the hhs secretary two weeks ago and he literally scoffed at the idea. he said, no. secretary? of course not. we would never make him the secretary. he had this sense of, are you crazy? and here we are. i think there's a lot of folks this morning in the health care

business, and by the way, not just health care, but in the food industry, the food ecosystem, that are raising questions and concerns about what it's going to ultimately do to their businesses and the economy. >> and trump eventually did put him in this post, which requires senate confirmation, which seems to indicate he wants that fight with the senate or maybe wants to try to do this by recess appointment. one last one for you, andrew, as we tease before the break. disney earnings potentially sending signals about the future of linear versus streaming. tell us about it. >> there's been a lot of naysayers around streaming. can streaming be a real business? even warren buffett a year ago was asked if streaming was a business and he said unless you're netflix -- i don't know if he explained this, but thought it was a very tough business. netflix was winning but just about everybody else was losing. disney appears to have made the turn, if you will, in the business. and now seems like it will be a profitable business and a growingly profitable business. they put out not just their

expectations for what the company will do next year but actually in '26 and '27, something almost unheard of for a company like disney in terms of projecting out what the earnings will look like and streaming being a huge part of it. i'm afraid to say, jonathan, the linear part of their business, and i know we're on linear tv right now, down about 38%. >> shh. cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you, andrew. >> have a good weekend. >> you, too. one more business headline this morning. americans now owe a record $1.1 trillion on their credit cards. according to the federal reserve bank of new york, credit card balances are about 8% higher than just one year ago. the average balance per consumer stands at just over $6,300. rick stengel, before we let you go, you served on the biden transition team four years ago. >> i did. >> so you have a good sense of the inner workings of this sort of operation, though i will note it seems to be very different

what's happening in mar-a-lago than in wilmington four years ago. give us some insight how you think this process should play out versus how it actually is playing out. >> by the way, the way it played out when biden came in was trump administration didn't cooperate with the transition at all. i was doing global media. they literally, like on the last possible day, sent two interns to talk to us. so i am sure, based on what happened before and what traditionally happens, the biden team is completely up to speed with everything. has everything ready. you're handing over information to the new administration. this is part of this beautiful, peaceful transfer of power that we've had in this country for 250 years. you're giving a new administration the tools to do the right thing going forward. and i hope the trump administration is participating. it seems like they are. >> rick stengel, thank you so much. his latest piece for "time" is available to read online now. next up here, we'll bring you an update on the wildfires burning across new york and new

jersey as record drought continues here in the northeast. and, we'll take a look at the stories making the front pages of papers across the country including a new warning for drivers in a rust belt state. "morning joe" is coming right back. oooh! refill?

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welcome back. as firefighters battle deadly blazes on both coasts, the danger could ramp up this weekend here in the northeast with windy conditions expected to fuel the flames amid record drought conditions. nbc news correspondent emilie ikeda has the latest from new jersey. >> reporter: this morning there are growing fears strong winds could fan the flames of wildfires across the northeast

over the next couple of days. in new york city smoke seen above upper manhattan as a brush fire burned at inwood hill park this week amid a historic dry spell in the big apple. >> as these dry conditions continue, we anticipate that we will see more of these before rain comes. >> reporter: new york city's fire department says it has responded to a record 229 brushfires over a two-week period. the jennings creek fire burning in both new york and new jersey is now 50% contained nearly a week after it started. some nearby schools are closed today as a precaution as crews used smaller controlled burns in an effort to control the larger blaze. >> we are setting fire to fight the fire. don't be alarmed. it's where we want it. it's fire we're putting down to do a job. >> reporter: nearly 60% of the northeast is currently under moderate drought. with it especially pronounced in new jersey, the state seeing its driest conditions in nearly 120

years. this fire in burlington county has been burning since july 4th. parts of pennsylvania, new york, and all of new jersey and delaware are under drought watches and warnings with voluntary water conservation effort. climate scientists say if the northeast doesn't see rain soon, we can expect more fires through the holiday season. >> that was nbc's emilie ikeda with that report. extreme weather also tops our look at the morning papers. in florida, the palm beach post reports a rare november storm could threaten the sunshine state next week. tropical storm sara made landfall in honduras last night. some show the storm looping back into the gulf of mexico where it could regain strength and then potentially target the state of florida. over in new jersey now "the star ledger" has a front page feature on federal grants approved to fund repairs on amtrak's busy

northeast corridor line. federal agencies approved $112 million in funding to replace decaying overhead wires, tracks and signals. the aging infrastructure has been blamed for this year's summer of hell where commuters face numerous delays and service disruptions to and from the new york metro area. that one hits close to home. mean while in vermont, "the burlington free press" highlights a new federal program created to help the state's organic dairy farms. the organic dairy product promotion program is the latest effort by the usda to expand organic dairy access to schools and youth programs across vermont. the usda committed $15 million to the program hoping to create new markets for vermont's dairy farmers. and finally to ohio. "the akron beacon journal" takes a look at an active deer warning for drivers. that's right, deer. state officials are urging people to be cautious on roads as the next few weeks mark the

most active season for ohio's deer population. on average, deer cause the death of about ten people every year in that state, and ohio highway patrol note there have been nearly 110 deer-involved crashes since 2019. coming up next, we'll be joined by the man behind the menu of the first plant-bapsed restaurant to earn three michelin stars. he is live in studio next on "morning joe." ." ke normal aging but could be due to a buildup of amyloid plaques in the brain. the sooner you talk to your doctor, the more options you may have. learn more at amyloid.com.

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i started to feel guilty because i felt that for a long time i didn't question enough exactly where our food was coming from, like all of our food. when you have that knowledge, you have the responsibility to speak about it. >> so that's a clip from the netflix documentary series "you are what you eat" featuring our next guest, world renowned award winning chef, the owner of a new york city restaurant 11 madison park, famed restaurant, which he reopened after the covid pandemic in 2021 featuring a completely plant-based menu. he's also the author of this new set of books "hefty and beautiful" titled "11 madison park: the plant-based chapter "that detail the transformation of the restaurant into the first plant-based restaurant ever to earn three michelin stars and

features some of the plant-based recipes which have made the restaurant so famous. chef daniel joins us now. thank you so much for being here. congratulations on the book, a beautiful volume here. tell us about the beginning of this journey for you both the restaurant that led to everything else about realizing how animals were treated and why you wanted to change how your restaurant prepares. >> i'm a student of the french cuisine, and i grew up in switzerland and i did classic training. my goal was to earn three michelin stars, and that's what we did. it was a beautiful journey. i was an athlete before cooking, so i had this athlete's mentality, and winning was really important. so we chased all the awards that were there from the michelin stars to "the new york times" stars and then eventually to this list of the best restaurants in the world, which

in 2017 our restaurant was named the number one restaurant in the world. and at that time i started to think a little bit more. i reached the mountain top, and we sort of were looking for the next north star. we started an organization -- i co-founded an organization called rethink food. we take foods and prepare meals for people in need. and then, of course, the pandemic hit and that put our whole restaurant on hold for almost two years. during that time i transformed the restaurant into a community kitchen. and for two years all we did was cooking meals for people in need, and it completely changed everything that i was thinking. i reconnected with food in a whole new way with the language

of food. i felt there was much more purpose in preparing these meals than what we did before. >> so when we talk about plant based, maybe not everyone know what is that means, so would you give us an example of what a sort of plant-based meal would look like? i know you do thanksgiving. what does plant-based thanksgiving look like? >> that's a good question. plant based is not using any animals products. that's what we are currently doing at the restaurant for thanksgiving, for example, we have as the main dish it sort of a squash pumpkin stuffed with stuffing and braised in the oven and, of course, we have all the sides that, you know, i didn't grow up in america, but i'm aware the sides are usually what people are mostly about anyway. i mean, i don't know how many

people really love the turkey part, but it's really about the sides. >> so, daniel, let's say you can't get a reservation at eleven madison park or maybe up don't live in new york or maybe it's not in your budget but you also are an american who cares about where your food comes from -- >> of course. >> -- and who wants to eat a little healthier and think about the planet and animal welfare. do you have any tips for americans in that position? >> well, every choice matters. every meal matters. i'm not 100% vegan either. and although i think, as the restaurant, it's important to be going all the way and has moved us creatively really to show the beauty and everything that's possible, but the truth is every meal really has an impact on the environment, and we do need to reduce how much meat we eat even if you just start by one day a

week or two days a week, and it's also healthy. >> the new three volume book set is titled "eleven madison park: the plant-based chapter." you can preorder it online. it will be available tuesday. chef david humm, congratulations and thank you very much. >> thank you so much for having me. i appreciate it. still ahead, the oscars have a new host. we'll tell you who it is next on "morning joe." ." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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comedian conan o'brien will host the 97th academy awards this coming march, the first-ever oscar gig for the funny 61-year-old who has twice hosted the emmys and the white house correspondents dinner. conan, of course, the former writer for "saturday night live" and "the simpsons" and later anchored his own late night talk show on nbc. conan has 31 emmy nominations over his career. good to see a redhead do well in

television. we have just a few seconds left for final thoughts. molly, what a week it was. >> yes, but also red-haired people doing well on television, i cannot but agree with you. >> that's very kind. >> i'm just excited that the weekend is here. i am having a big party with my friends and hang out with my dog and finding the joy. we need as much as we can get. >> the nation might need a break. that does it for us this morning. thanks for watching today and all weeklong. we'll see you again on monday. ana cabrera picks up the coverage right now. right now on "ana cabrera reports," another trump cabinet pick, anti-vaccine activist robert f. kennedy jr. for health and human services. trump vowed to let him go wild on health. so what would that look like?