good to be with you. i'm katy tur. a department of 80,000 employees across 13 divisions that run more than 100 programs regulating the food we eat and the medicine we take deciding which drugs and which procedures will be covered by medicaid and medicare, preventing the spread of infectious diseases, overseeing what potentially breakthrough medical research is pursued, and oh, so much more,

that is what donald trump wants rfk jr. to take charge of as hhs secretary. a man who said a lot of downright dangerous things to sow doubt in life saving medical science over the years. just listen. >> there is no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. i do believe that autism does come from vaccines. they were able to find only three kids in the amish community who had autism and all three of them were people who were children who had been adopted by the amish after receiving their vaccines. cdc says, well, we have never seen this before. they try to say they're holocaust deniers. this is a holocaust. they're going to have the right to compel unwanted medical interventions on us. the nazis did that in the camps.

in world war ii. they tested vaccines on gypsies and jews. covid-19 is targeted to attack caucasians and black people. the people when are most immune are ashkenazi jews and chinese. there are papers out there that show the racial and ethnic differential. they're putting in 5g to harvest our data and control our behavior. digital currency that will allow them to punish us from a distance and cut off our food supply. vaccine passports. >> a lot of the problems we see in kids in particular, and oys, it is underappreciated how much of that is coming from chemical

s including a lot of the sexual dysphoria. they're swimming through a soup of toxic chemicals and many are endocrine disruptors. >> so why does donald trump want rfk jr., the simple answer is that it is a political quid pro quo. why did rfk jr. get enough support to make that quid pro quo worth it to donald trump, while his debunked views on vaccines overshadowed him on his 2024 campaign and his selection as hhs secretary, kennedy railed against corruption in the fda's drug approval process, that favors big pharma over the interests of individuals, something economists and scientists do agree on. he's promised to overhaul the general approach to our country's nutrition and food quality, promising to strip processed foods out of school lunches. and limit food dyes, that's just the start. those stances do have support, especially in light of another study showing americans are chronically unhealthy, according

to a paper in the lancet, three-quarters of u.s. adults are now overweight or obese. but the steep rise in childhood obesity as well. which leads to this question, when donald trump says he would let rfk, quote, go wild on health, which rfk jr. are we getting? the dangerous antivaxxer who said all of those things, or the guy that wants to take processed food out of school lunches? and is it even possible to separate those two? join ing us now, berkeley lovelace jr. and brandy zadrozny and senior school at johns hopkins center for health security at the bloomberg school of public health dr. amish dr. amish adalsha. give us an overview of the hhs. i said a moment ago they oversee all the drug approvals, and, you know, what we're covered by, what is covered by insurance. what exactly will rfk be able to

influence if he is hhs secretary? >> yes, he'll have enormous influence, so within hhs is the cdc, the fda, the center for medicaid and medicare services. they will have leadership under those different branches of agencies. however, rfk jr. will be the head of over everyone. he will have major influence. if you recall, he was being floated as a potential white house health czar, he was also floated as being someone that has been described as operation warp speed for childhood chronic diseases and none of those positions would have given him the influence that he'll have now with those, with this position. >> doctor, expand on that. what could he potentially do if he confirmed by the senate? >> i think it would be a very destructive influence that he would have. he's not there to actually improve health. i think he's there to destroy it.

when you look at the rhetoric he had on vaccines, the way he tries to process that scientific data, inability to process that scientific data, to twist it, to evade what it means, you can't think of this as anything other than a major political stunt that is going to have dangerous cascading consequences for one of the greatest technologies humans have ever invented. that's vaccines. his stance on vaccines completely obliterates anything that he might say about any other condition. it speaks to how he processes data and his antivaccine receiptor receipt receiptor has held argument and this is not a person you want to have in power. this is a nio liftic destroyer. >> can he actually -- does he have the authority to roll back vaccine mandates or approvals. wouldn't he need the fda to some degree? >> yes, he would need the fda, also need cooperation from state and local health departments and school districts.

a lot of this is done at the state level. but what he would do is give the antivaccine movement their strongest advocate in history. and that is going to be very damaging, just from the trickle down effects it will cause in the lower policy level-making parts of the country. and the other issue is that he's talked about allowing vaccine companies to be sued in normal courts. that would grind vaccine development to a halt. they're just going to stop making vaccines if this is something where it is going to be litigious and they're not going to get any return on investment. there are major concerns with the -- what he's saying and what he can do, what he can't do and what kind of influence he can have on everybody involved in the whole public health apparatus around vaccines. >> he has said in the past he wants dr. anthony fauci to face prosecution, he wants to dismantle and rebuild the fda, the cdc and the national

institutes of health, nih and wants nih to stop studying infectious diseases, which is kind of way out there. in response to this news, what is the reaction been within hhs? >> i think the promise that is spooking federal employees the most is his pledge to shake up public health agencies inrt thr that fda employees have been preparing for quick exits in the event that rfk was appointed to a prominent health role. and the fear, of course, is they won't have jobs when he comes in. there is also just a concern that he could make their job harder to do. so, rfk has made many false and misleading claims about vaccines and including as you mentioned that they're tied to autism. there is a concern he can influence or delay approvals for new vaccines, he could just cast doubt about the vaccines we have, which would not be good from a public health standpoint. so there is certainly a lot of

anxiety and fear at the fda right now about that. >> getting back to what i started with, why does donald trump need someone or why would he have someone like rfk surrounding him? why did he meet him during the campaign, make the promise to get the endorsement. who does rfk jr. bring along with him? >> you're watching the madison square garden rally, he introduced rfk after he first endorsed him and the crowd was uproarious. and in a way that almost surprised trump. you could see it on his face, like, very impressed with this, the way he was received. i've seen that kind of reception for the last ten years and it is when kennedy goes into a group of moms of antivaxxers with his speeches, with his stump speech, with his rhetoric, and, you know, kennedy has something very, very powerful to provide for the country that most people can't and it is answers. easy answers for all that ails us because he's a conspiracy theorist and has been for years

and years. so he, like you said before, has some real -- there are real issues we deal with as a country including in our health. and he says i know the answer. i can fix it. i will get in nih and fire all the corrupt people and i will have the attorney general investigate the medical journals who are keeping information from you. i know the information. i will share it. he says it -- in two months he will figure out the cause for all diseases in children. in two months. he'll just go in, flip a switch and figure it out and in two years he'll reverse all of that and make our children healthy again. it is not true. it is not feasible. it is not going to happen. but, again, for all of these mothers who are looking for an answer for their children's autism and couldn't find it, he was the answer and now he's trying to do the same. >> listen to what he wrote in his 2021 book, the real anthony fauci, bill gates, big pharma and the global war on democracy and big health.

he believes they are members of a vaccine cartel trying to kill patients by denying them hydroxychloroquine, we were talking about during the pandemic, and he argues that this cartel secretly funded doctors to reduce fraudulent studies showing the drugs were ineffective against covid to accelerate the construction of 5g cellular networks in which kennedy's understanding is that they're very, very bad. that's pretty out there. >> it is crazy talk. it is tin foil hat time. it is. the broadest of conspiracy theories. that's all sort of been the way that he welcomes. before it was he got famous in 2005 for writing this screed for "rolling stone" saying a bunch of cdc doctors were getting together in a secret meeting in atlanta, georgia, and they were conspireing to hide autism. it always has been his thing, it is continuing to be his thing. >> one of the other issues here, i try to emphasize this, we have

a problem with health in this country. americans are unhealthy. there is a real problem with our weight. there is a real problem with what we consume. when we have a chronic diseases, chronic disabilities, there is a fundamental problem with what we consume in this country. he does want to go after that. he says i don't think there should be ultra processed foods in school lunches and that big ag and big pharma do have something to do with that. and beyond the antivaxxers, that sort of thing resonates with a more broader swath of americans. how do you build trust back up in an agency like hhs on those issues so that the next person who comes around, who says those things, isn't also somebody who is a dangerous antivaxxer, who believes in conspiracy theories? >> exactly that. you don't put someone at its helm that doesn't believe in science. the same science that is going to be used to tackle chronic diseases, to tackle obesity is

the same science that is behind vaccines. science is one big hole integrated piece of knowledge that deals with biology. if somebody doesn't believe in biology and it is clear he doesn't clearly believe in biology, because of what he's been saying, you're not going to get -- create trust. and you're going to increase more distrust and more americans are going to tune out and say these experts don't know anything because one side they're saying this, the other side they're saying this, some don't agree on the basic science behind it. i don't think this is going to do anything for any other disease. this is the wrong person to be tackling any kind of scientific or medical question because he basically does not have the cognitive processing ability to do this. his thinking is corrupt on this. it is not open to rational argumention. i think this only makes all those other things worse, even if they are his pet causes, he's not going to do them any service. he's going to push people away from government experts and from experts that are in hhs in the future. i think this is going to be the long tail of the pandemic.

we had this distrust and it is only going to get worse with rfk jr. at the m. >> guys, thank you very much. we got a little news from donald trump, he's nominating governor doug burgum, a big surrogate of his, to be secretary of the interior. we'll talk about this in a moment. still ahead, what elon musk is doing, taking meetings with iran. plus, what donald trump is signaling by putting his own criminal defense attorneys in the top spots at doj. and what happened to the house ethics meeting today that was supposed to discuss a report about matt gaetz. we're back in 90 seconds. tt gaez we're back in 90 seconds you're eligible for medicare, it's a good idea to have original medicare. it gives you coverage for doctor office visits and hospital stays. but if you want even more benefits, you can choose a medicare advantage plan like the ones offered at humana. our plans combine original medicare with extra benefits in a single, convenient plan with $0,

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so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. bipartisan senators want to know exactly what they're dealing with when it comes to matt gaetz, asking to see the house ethics report on allegations of sexual misconduct, illicit drug use, accepting improper gifts, obstruction and more. a report that punch bowl news first reported was highly damaging. but the meeting to decide what to do with those findings was delayed, without explanation. and now speaker mike johnson says he will strongly request his words that the ethics committee withhold the report entirely. joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. is he going to meet pushback from republican senators? >> reporter: you know, katy, my

view on whether or not this report will ever see the light of day has changed dramatically over the past 24 hours. when i left here yesterday, there was a constant drumbeat from both republican senators and you saw that similar drumbeat from members of the house that felt no matter what, this report needed to get out there so the senators had every possible bit of information at their disposal to make this judgment as to whether or not matt gaetz deserved to be the next attorney general. that's really changed quite a bit. you saw this meeting of the ethics committee which is a regularly scheduled meeting, but where they would be able to talk about this report, get postponed. now you have the house speaker after previously saying he didn't want to weigh in on this specifically saying that it should not come out. and you have to wonder now if republicans are going to do everything they can to suppress this report. listen to what john cornyn said yesterday about how important this information would be as part of the confirmation process. >> i think there should not be any limitation on the senate

judiciary committee's investigation including whatever the house ethics committee has generated. >> you want to see it? >> absolutely. >> reporter: and so the question is what comes next? the senate judiciary committee, democrats have specifically requested that the house ethics committee preserve and maintain all that information in the event that they formally make an ask for it. does it lead to a subpoena, something along those lines. that would be unprecedented. right now, katy, there is a real possibility this very important information does not become a part of the confirmation process for what is one of the most important cabinet positions in the trump administration. >> what is your sense of how that confirmation would go if matt gaetz makes it that far. does he get confirmed by the republicans? >> reporter: here is the thing, katy, you talk to republicans in the senate and all of them are telling us behind closed doors there is a lot of hand wringing, a lot of republican senators

upset, depending on who you talk to, in the range of between ten and maybe 30 republican senators who say they won't vote for matt gaetz's confirmation. not a single one said they're a definite no. many have been very public with their concerns, expressed skepticism, but none said no. and we have seen this play out time and time again, where republican senators behind closed doors talk about how concerned they are about the conduct of something happening from donald trump's orbit, but then ultimately fall in line. i'm not saying that's going to happen this time around, i'm saying we have watched this play before and until something happens differently, you have to assume that right now matt gaetz is on the path to confirmation until we see the republican senators act differently. >> got to know the history to understand the future. ryan nobles, ryan, thank you very much. several members of donald trump's criminal defense team are also getting tapped for top jobs at the department of justice. todd blanche, who led his

defense team in multiple cases is trump's pick for deputy attorney general. the number two at doj. and emil bove, who defended trump in the hush money case, has been picked as principle associate deputy attorney general. the number three spot at doj. and john sauer, who represented donald trump in the supreme court case, the immunity case, he wants him to be solicitor general. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. todd blanche, if this matt gaetz thing goes south, todd blanche gets the nomination? >> i'm not sure he gets the nomination. if i were the trump team, i would think about how to get confirmation hearings for todd blanche as soon as possible and have a vote on him. there is a federal statute that provides that the dag, the deputy attorney general, has the right to act as attorney general once confirmed for what could be an unlimited period of time.

it is not time delimited as it is in the federal vacancies reform act and there are some people who believe if the two statutes are interpreted together, it means that doj's person is not subject to the same restrictions as other acting secretaries who have to stay in for 210 days and then out of there. the thought is if todd blanche is confirmed, right at the start of the trump administration, he can hit the ground running as the acting ag and do that for as long as they like. >> if he's going to get to be confirmed to be acting ag, what is the difference. >> between matt gaetz and -- >> between the confirmation hearings? >> there wouldn't a huge difference in the confirmation hearing. the huge difference is what the trump folks really want. when i asked them is matt gaetz a trial balloon or your wish list or your real pick? i had a source familiar tell me today, we are focused on and confident in the confirmation of the attorney general designee matt gaetz. they want to go for it.

this is not as some of us have predicted before, me included, sort of their trial balloon. they are absolutely gung ho on matt gaetz as attorney general. i would suggest to you there is a big difference between matt gaetz and todd blanche. >> i think you're right about that. i think it is right to take them at their word on this. and n the totality of the nominations or the picks before we call them nominations, that shows us where donald trump wants to go. he's not picking rfk as a trial balloon and matt gaetz as a trial balloon, and tulsi gabbard as a trial balloon, and pete hegseth as a trial balloon, it would take up too much time. functionally speaking, bove or bove? >> bove. >> bove. with emil bove as number three, blanche as number two and john sauer as solicitor general, do you have a sense where this doj will be going come january? >> i don't think any of them have taken positions at least in

their papers that indicate, for example, that future prosecutions of people involved in the cases that they defended will be coming. however, if you take team trump at their word, this is one of the reasons that they want matt gaetz. >> would todd blanche want to do that? >> i don't know that todd blanche wants to do that. i think todd blanche will be pressed into that service of going from being in the fervent defense of donald trump to be on the fervent offense for donald trump. >> if he's taking this position, he's saying yes to the pick, to being nominated, he's got to know donald trump -- he's got to know where donald trump would want to push him and if he would be willing to go that far. >> and he has to have an appetite for that. i will say to you, that in the papers that todd blanche signed and various other criminal cases where he's been involved, there are accusations of law fair by not only the federal department of justice, but by other prosecutors. bragg, the manhattan d.a.'s

office. and those went into legal papers. i want to be clear with folks, we have to pause there because that in and of itself, to make those kind of arguments and timings before a court is a big step and he was willing to take it. >> all right, lisa rubin, thank you very much. and back in december, of last year, msnbc identified seven counties we thought would be key to the 2024 election results. what happened in those countys? steve kornacki joins us with the answers. david trump's cabinet pick on the world stage, what leaders around the globe are saying about them, how they're reacting. don't go anywhere. out them, how reacting don't go anywhere. [bowling pins knocked down] when you overdo it, undo it with pepto bismol. i've been worn by celebrities, athletes, and world leaders. but i've always felt most comfortable up here, with the folks that made me who i am. i'm right at home, out here on the land.

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"the new york times" reports elon musk met with iran's ambassador to the united nations at a private location in new york on monday. nbc news has not confirmed that meeting, but two iranian officials tell "the new york times" it was a, quote, positive discussion of how to diffuse tensions between iran and the united states, a meeting they say was requested by musk. joining us now, president and founder of the eurasia group and g zero media. is there any reason to believe they would tap musk as an emissary to iran? we don't have diplomatic relations but he's a private citizen. >> it is much more plausible if you want to figure out if there

is room for engagement. the iranians have been reaching out to the europeans as well as america's gulf allies pretty consistently over the last few weeks because they're in a horrible position. they don't have effective way too strike back against israel. they know that their energy resources, their nuclear capabilities, and their leadership potentially vulnerable to being targeted and that president-elect trump is really interested in facilitating that. they have been reaching out. easiest way to see what a deal might look like could be sending elon musk. i certainly suspect trump was fully in the loop before he made that meeting, put it that way. >> what do you think of elon musk being the person to conduct, if he is, this shadow diplomacy? >> well, i think he's more capable than dennis rodman was in the first term. so, you remember that dennis was doing that for trump on north korea. he also has a lot more

influence, both influence globally as well as maybe influence in favor of his own business interests. so, this is unprecedented territory for u.s. diplomacy. you also have seen that musk was on the phone with zelenskyy together with trump. must have musk has done more for ukraine than any other private citizen in the united states. maybe in the world, given starlink and the fact that zelenskyy would have a hard time functioning militarily without it. but more recently he's also promoted a lot of kremlin talking points against zelenskyy in trying to end the war. for me, the most interesting point going forward is whether or into the elon musk is going to be on first phone call with xi jinping because, you know, katy, when i think about u.s.-china relations, i see a large number of trump appointees that are among the most hawkish on china, i see trump who talks

about tariffs, but also is inclined to cut deals with anybody if a good deal is there for the offing, and, you know, kissinger is dead. the only person in the world that has access to both xi jinping and the president-elect happens to be the richest man in the world. we're going to be talking about this a lot going forward. >> to stick on iran for another beat. i heard it said by a very high ranking leader in the middle east that maybe the way forward is to change the posture on iran. because iran is the one backing these proxy groups, iran is the one that is threatening to destabilize everything by backing the wars in gaza, and hezbollah and lebanon, et cetera. and maybe a change in posture toward iran going forward would be enough to normalize things or stabilize things in the middle east to allow saudi arabia to make that deal with israel, to

normalize relations. >> well, first of all, the deal with the saudis and israelis, everybody in the u.s. wants. the democrats and the republicans. the saudis aren't yet prepared to accept that because they are preconditioned as a state-state solution for the palestinians. that's what mohammed bin salman is saying as long as the war in gaza is it going on. might that change when trump becomes president and we no longer see an act of war, it might. it is possible. everybody wants to see that agreement. that's not right now in the ability of the americans to make happen. for the iranians, this they're in an untenable position. they have two choices. they can either reach out and try to normalize and stabilize relations with the rest of the world. and the newly elected reformist in iranian context president clearly is interested in that. the other option is going nuclear. and they don't -- otherwise there is no deterrence. the big deterrence that iranians

had to prevent the israelis from attacking them, the americans from attacking them was hezbollah, the most powerful nonstate military actor in the world and the israelis have just shown the iranians and everybody else that they can act with impunity against hezbollah and hezbollah can't do very much in response. right now, the iranians are out of options. and they got a supreme leader 85 years old, probably with stomach cancer, how do they handle that position? they got a population pretty restive that demonstrates a lot, it is harder to use repression against them without getting more and more social instability. clearly this is a time that if the americans wanted to see what a deal from iran might look like, would it be considerably larger in scale and give than what obama multilaterally was able to negotiate with the old jcpoa, which trump, of course, unilaterally pulled out of. it is worth exploring that. i would rather have that done

through official diplomatic channels, but the fact that elon had that conversation, i do think it is more likely that it facilitates where the u.s. might want to see an iran relationship go, than any other options that trump has right now. >> yeah, seems like there might be some opportunity in the middle east for this next administration should they choose to pursue it. ian bremmer, thank you very much for joining us. >> sure, katy. still ahead, a democratic autopsy, what one strategist says the party did wrong to lose ground with key demographics. first, though, a look at how the deciders decided. how seven swing counties voted and what it tells democrats about what they need to do for the next election, which, by the way, is two years away. electioe way, is two years away (luke) homes-dot-com is a new,

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we have now had ten days to analyze, to ruminate, and to take stock of the election results. so what have we learned? steve kornacki checks back in on, quote, decider counties, to see what exactly changed. >> when the campaign started, we introduced to you to these, these seven counties, the deciders. these are counties with some specific demographic traits, characteristics, regional characteristics. and we say it is important to deciding how the election turned out nationally. everything is over right now.

let's check back in and see what does the decider county tell us, how did they help decide this election? start here, erie county, pennsylvania. this was the ultimate swing county, a bellwether. 2016, erie went for donald trump. donald trump won pennsylvania. 2020, flipped to joe biden, pennsylvania flipped to joe biden. you see where this is going, 2024, erie back in donald trump's column. pennsylvania back in donald trump's column. a couple other bellwethers in arizona, there is maricopa county, that's the mother load, more than 60% of all the votes in the state of arizona coming from maricopa, phoenix, massive sprawling phoenix suburbs. four years ago when joe biden won arizona, he became the first democrat in 72 years to carry maricopa. this time around, it flipped back to trump, arizona flipped

back to trump. we said washo county in nevada, where reno is. we said this identified as a bellwether too. the major population center is las vegas, clark county. washoe county is a big area, reno has been the more swingy of these counties. interesting thing that happened, trump made a big jump here, but he didn't quite win it. so trump is going to lose washoe county and he's actually going to lose clark county. that's expected. but he kept the margin low enough that just massive, massive support in the small rural counties between the two big cities carries trump in nevada. look at michigan, kent county, the city of grand rapids, the anchor of that region of western michigan. we said watch that because it is a traditionally republican area. but the voters hadn't taken well to trump. was that going to get worse for him? it didn't get much better but

didn't get course. trump did appoint better there and flipped michigan. the fact he didn't lose more ground and gained back there, that amounted to a big win for him. the other three left on the board, miami-dade, gwinnett and georgia and dane county. i want to show you what happened to them. not that long ago we were talking about fwlor as a talk ing about florida as a swing state. he wins florida by double digits. this is a big reason why. 3 million people in dade county. 70% hispanic conte. 2016, clinton won this, he brought it down to a seven-point gap in 2020. and now double digit win for trump. that's a shift of more than 40 points since donald trump came on the scene. florida is off the map now when

we talk about swing states. north to georgia, the big atlanta suburbs here, gwinnett county was our decider county. let me show you compared to biden four years ago, turn back the clock compared to clinton, this thing has been trending democratic, move than 1 million people look -- why did it come down a tick? trump's support with hispanic voters. look at the precincts in gwinnett county, a large hispanic population there. it kept him from losing more ground in gwinnett gaining ground there, important to him carrying georgia. wisconsin, another state that trump carried narrowly here. under 35,000 votes. dane county, the state capital, madison, why did we identify

this, what we have been seeing with wisconsin we have been seeing geographically. they're losing in blue collar, rural areas. it makes it more and more important for them to run up the score in places like dane county. harris did win here overwhelmingly. her margin 188,000 votes. this is the key that was an improvement from four years ago, the margin then you could see biden over trump for democrats about 181,000. given all the losses democrats continue to suffer throughout the vast majority of wisconsin, thee needed to run this number up much higher to offset that. we were asking was it going to be overwhelmingly democratic enough for them and the answer, no. >> steve kornacki with the numbers of what changed. let's talk about what the message is from those numbers.

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i've seen it. trust me, after 15 walks, it gets a little old. ugh. i really should be retired by now. wish i'd invested when i had the chance... to the moon! unbelievable. stop waiting. start investing. e*trade ® from morgan stanley. steve kornacki showed us the shift, but why exactly did the ground shift under democrats' feet? there are a lot of theories, but most of them conclude the party of working class voters lost touch with their historical base. as democratic strategist chris kofinas writes, for god's sake, stop listening to celebrities or coastal elites, they know nothing about the cost of milk

or eggs. most important, stop talking, and listen without feeling compelled to explain to them why they are wrong for feeling this way. you will be stunned by what you learn. joining us now, former new york congressman max rose, and national affairs correspondent for the nation, john nichols. we were talking during the break about bernie sanders and whether he got it right. max has strong feelings. what do you think about what chris was saying? >> that's a dime a dozen. that's what people always say. it is ridiculous. we can't throw the baby out with the bath water, can't be listening to bernie sanders now who underperformed vice president harris very significantly. so that's absurd. we saw ruben gallego take a really hard race. michigan, we saw elissa slotkin do it as well. of the seven swing states, democrats hold state wide office in all of them.

let's start talking theoretically. we hold state wide in that state. democrats have won very, very recently. look at fetterman. what this was was two things and two things only. in my humble opinion. a really, really bad campaign and the reason why the campaign was so bad, it was illustrative of a significant issue of democratic staff and the culture associated with them. vice president harris did not go on joe rogan's podcast because her staff was worried about progressive backlash internally. worried some staff would be triggered and they would complain. we have got to move beyond this issue that we have in the democratic party where some people are internally steering it minority toward victory, but some sense of self-righteousness. >> you're talking about identity politics. >> i think it is actually much simpler and deeper than that. one day it is identity politics, one day it is another thing. the truth of the matter is politics is about addition, not

subtraction. if you're in this business, you have to be in the business to win, because only when you win can you help people. >> is that so different from what bernie is arguing? it is working class messaging with not getting too tied up with identity politics and -- talking to everybody. >> no, absolutely not. what bernie is talking about is a failed set of policies from a political advantage point. that's why he did not overper perform vice president harris. what i'm talking about here is that politics and voting is an act of self-expression and self-interest and we cannot go through life seeking out and actually gravitating toward political third rails. this is not a problem. >> what is a political third rail for bernie? is it socialized healthcare? >> i think what bernie exists to do, and there is a role for him there, to constantly push the window. how can i extend the left and right limits of political discourse to one day change

things 20 and 30 years from now? the truth of the matter is, though what the democratic party should not do right now is throw the baby out with the bath water. look at elissa slotkin's campaign in michigan, where she won and vice president harris did not. she ran on fighting for the middle class, the working class, bread and butter issues left and right, she ran as a true democrat. there is no reason why this needs to be a milquetoast moderation, that's not what anyone is talking about. we got to get rid of this thread of the democratic party, mostly in the upper tier staff, presidential campaigns and in the white house, who go there for two or three years, before they go to goldman sachs or bane or some elite corporate law firm so they could basically feel like they exist within elite social hierarchies and they haven't offended anyone and they're progressive and righteous. >> i hear you giggling. i do hear you giggling? >> i am a little.

a little. the congressman is exactly right. it is the elites. and that's exactly what bernie sanders is saying. it is intriguing that i've been out on the road, i'm talking to people in battleground states including in wisconsin, where i spend a lot of my time, talking to rural party folks and i can tell you the thing that electrified folks was bernie sanders' statement and senator chris murphy's statement. those are the things i'm hearing people talk about, they are -- people are into politics. let's be clear. these are people who try to win or at least hold their own in rural counties. and i'm not hearing anybody saying, don't listen to bernie sanders. quite the opposite. one of the things i'm hearing a lot of, and notably, is that bernie sanders went out along with a number of other folks and worked really hard outside his own state, across the country to try and rally people to vote for this ticket. and he got huge crowds in union

hall and places like that. sometimes on the same day that the harris campaign was out with liz cheney. and what i can tell you is, i can't begin to sum up the extent that folks have told me that that liz cheney outreach, the time spent with her, just didn't work. and that at the end of the day, one of the things the democratic party needs to learn is that there are people out there who may have voted republican this time, who could easily vote democratic next time. but they aren't going to be drawn one way or the other by, you know, people like liz cheney, frankly. and that's not to disrespect liz cheney. what she did was very courageous. >> her policies are the opposite of democratic policies. they are extreme conservative policies and she represented that. john, i know you've been saying that, i'm told i have to leave with that.

"katy tur reports" needs to learn the lesson that in order to have great conversations, we have got to give it more time. john nichols, max rose, thank you very much for joining us, guys. that's going to do it for me today on this friday. "deadline: white house" starts after this quick break. "deadline: white house" starts after this quick break to me. ♪ ♪ control is everything to me.♪ and now i'm back in the picture. feel significant symptom relief at 4 weeks with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements. skyrizi helped visibly improve damage of the intestinal lining. and with skyrizi, many were in remission at 12 weeks, at 1 year, and even at 2 years. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. liver problems leading to hospitalization may occur when treated for crohn's. now's the time to take control of your crohn's. ♪ control is everything to me. ♪

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