note, setting aside all the controversy and the allegations, would be by far the most unqualified attorney general in american history.>> he has never prosecuted a case, he has 15 months of legal practice, like no, there are millions of americans who are qualified. literally.>> probably most of the people practicing law in this country, but the fact that he lacks credentials underscores what trump actually wants from him which is the only credential that matters, that he will be obedient to donald trump. but for people like hugh hewitt and people of the senate, want who will advance a conservative legal agenda. >> can i answer that real quick? >> sorry. we have to go. this is not over. for now, all of us get to go enjoy the weekend.

you're going to begin watching. >> we're going to continue talking about matt gaetz, too. and if he want to hang around, finish that last thought. just come into the 9:00 p.m. hour. no problems there. you go, as in singular you, go enjoy your weekend. you've earned it. for everybody else, stick with me now. today was the day that the house ethics committee was set to release its report on former florida congressman and new pick for attorney general republican matt gaetz. for years, the ethics committee has been investigating a string of allegations against gaetz. the most serious being that he engaged in sexual misconduct with a 17-year-old girl, potentially violating sex

trafficking laws. gaetz denies these allegations, but this week, just hours after being chosen by trump for attorney general and days before the ethics committee was set to release its report, gaetz resigned from congress. and now gaetz's republican colleagues are saying by resigning, gaetz is no longer under the ethics committee's jurisdiction. so its report and whatever is in its report should not see the light of day. it is all a very convenient series of events and excuses. however, the house ethics committee has released reports on lawmakers after they have resigned multiple times in the past. precedent is not in matt gaetz' favor. but republicans control the house. so what this really is here is a test of party. not precedent. >> as far as the timing of the release of the report, i don't know. the speaker of the house is not involved that in.

can't be involved in that so i'm not the person to answer that question. >> that was the speaker of the house, mike johnson, on wednesday. the day that matt gaetz resigned. johnson's stance then was as speaker of the house he's not involved in ethics committee members like this one. in fact, he cannot be involved. that was mike johnson's take on it wednesday. this is mike johnson's take on the matter today. >> i believe it is very important to maintain the house's tradition of not issuing ethics reports on people who are no longer members of congress. i think it would open a pandora's box. it is a very important rule that should be maintained that has been broken once or twice and should not have been because that would be a pandora's box. >> yes, the classic pandora's box. a box you can open several times without incident but if you open it again, be careful. or maybe don't be careful. who can know?

not only is what speaker johnson describing here not a pandora's box, it is also a full 180 degrees from his stance two days ago that he could not, that he would not get involved in this issue at all. when asked today by the "washington post" if he would do anything to prevent the ethics report from being released, johnson responded, i'm going to request that it not be. that is pretty involved if you ask me. so what changed? what did mike johnson do between wednesday and today? well, i want you to take a listen to johnson's answer after his whole pandora's box spiel. >> it is very important that it be maintained. if it's been broken once or twice, it should not have been because that would be a pandora's box. >> yes, there we go.

last night mike johnson spent the evening with donald trump at a gala down at mar-a-lago. speaker johnson doesn't want to talk about what he and trump discussed but somehow, somehow in the past 48 hours, mike johnson's stance on whether or not as speaker of the house he should try and stop the ethics report about matt gaetz from being released, somehow in the past 48 hours, mike johnson's stance only issue has completely reversed. i wonder how that happened. donald trump has picked the most radical group of potential cabinet members in american history. fox news host pete hegseth for defense secretary. vaccine skeptic and conspiracy theorist robert f. kennedy jr. for health and human services secretary. tulsi gabbard for the national intelligence agencies. matt gaetz to run the justice department.

it is truly n unbelievable group of nominees. the question is will any senate republican stand up to block their confirmation? it would only take four senate republicans, any four, to block any nominee. now, the "wall street journal" is reporting the republicans in the senate see matt gaetz's nomination in particular as doomed. people familiar with discussions among senate republicans said that far more than three of them are prepared to vote no. other estimates ranged for more than a dozen republican no votes to more than 30. it won't even be close another person told the journal. that might be true. or that might just be how republicans in the senate feel today. who can say how they might feel a few weeks from now? how much are republicans in the senate underestimating the weight of donald trump's thumb on the scale here? mike johnson wanted no part in the gaetz ethics committee two days ago.

and now he's leading the campaign to make sure it never sees the light of day. as one house republican told the "washington post" today, it's a given. trump will beat us into submission. trump has already even floated a back-up plan. a plan for how he could still get the senate to allow him whoever he wants in his cabinet, even if he doesn't have the votes. recess appointments. essentially, trump would just tell the senate to take an extended vacation allowing him to bypass the confirmation process on the premise that the senate is out of town. and according to the incoming republican senate majority leader, john thune, that option is very much alive. >> so what you have said that you would do recess appointments if it came to that. what's the threshold for getting tom point for recess appointments? >> what i said is, i think that all options are on the table including recess appointments. hopefully it doesn't get to that but we'll find out fairly

quickly. >> all options are on the table. we are now facing the first real test of the republican party. we might be gearing up for a low-key constitutional crisis. congress, after all, is supposed to be an independent and co-equal branch of government. the legislative branch is supposed to check the power of the executive branch. but now donald trump is looking at these republican senators and saying, jump. and the question is, will they respond, how high? >> there's no question he's the leader of our party. that means the leadership, if donald trump says jump three feet high, scratch your head, we all jump three feet high and scratch our heads. that's it. >> joining me now, nbc news senior national political reporter, thank you for being here. i'm very eager to hear your latest. what you're hearing on the hill as far as, let's start first with speaker johnson who seemed to have done a u-turn on his position wednesday.

his position now seems to be firmly that he does not want this report to come out. do you think donald trump had anything to do with that? >> there's one key to understanding everything speaker johnson has been doing these last few months and that is the fact that seven weeks from today, he'll have to stand on the house floor and get the votes to become speaker of the house for the next two years. a very slim republican majority. that means he will need the votes of just about every one of them. one thing he cannot afford to do is get on donald trump's bad side. this house majority, this one and the upcoming one, is a wholly-owned subsidiary of donald trump. and mike johnson can end his ambitions with a single tweet. i don't know what happened in that conversation with donald trump but he is certainly using the office of the speaker to try to encourage the ethics committee to do something. a couple days ago he indicated that he did not have the power to do. again, without going too deep down the rabbit hole of what mike johnson may or may not be thinking, this is the crucial political survival question.

he cannot get on trump's bad side. if he's seen as failing to use his power to advance a goal that donald trump wants to achieve, that could end up working out badly for him. so that's again, a dilemma that he's facing right now and he's arguing in fairness to him, this is only about precedent. he says the situation with the ethics committee did release a report on a member of congress resigned. he believes deeply in this norm. >> i wonder how much, i see the ethics committee as a litmus test for how much if at all they will stand up to donald trump. what we are hearing is a very damaging report to be released about donald trump's pick for the attorney general. i mean, that could doom his chances. do you think at this point, the senate can muscle its way, muscle the house enough to get its own copy of the report, if not a public copy released? >> it's unclear, alex. there are a couple of ways that

this ethics report could be released. the most obvious is that the committee meets and decides to release it. they still could do that. there's been some chatter in the senate including from the texas republican about subpoenaing that report. that got some very quick pushback from senator lindsey graham, the south carolina republican, who said he would object to any effort to subpoena it. a number of republican senators who said they do want to see the report. this comes down to how aggressive they're willing to push. and this is where senate republicans are now. this is turning into quite a prisoner's dilemma situation between them and president trump because they either confirm matt gaetz, based on our reporting, most of them don't want to do. he is far short of the 51 votes in the senate that he needs if republicans were to all vote the way they want to. so they seem to be trying to encourage trump subtly to either withdraw the nomination or prevent it from coming to a vote. if they vote him down, they would weaken the new

president-elect of their party right out of the gate. and right now, they're in the afterglow of the election. it's been literally one week and a few days since donald trump won the 2024 election. it would be highly unusual to see this party division. they don't want that. they think donald trump doesn't want it as well. and one person i spoke to thinks donald trump is testing the senate. he likes to see how far he can go before they push back. this is shaping up to be a test of if they will do what many of them deep down feel they should do or whether they will feel they need to submit to trump here. >> real quick, it seems like trump has put, i guess, if there's a get out of jail free card, maybe it's the recess appointments. that way they don't have to vote for matt gaetz but he still gets confirmed. is that a road that's looking more appealing to them? >> i've asked a number of republican senators about this. they're not going there at this point. all of them say, even strong

allies like ron johnson say they expect this to be done through the normal process. million is are prepared to vote for matt gaetz. others may not be but they're not talking about recess appointments. republican senators are saying that there might be the situation they're conjuring up an image of democrats trying to grind the chamber to a halt. the issue mate come to the floor. i've not heard a single democrat say that they're going to do that. what they're saying is republicans should either reject matt gaetz or donald trump should withdraw that nomination. that could be the next beat if trump persists with this. republican senators, at least some of them, seem to want to avoid that entire conversation. >> all right. senior national political reporter, it's great to hear from you. thank you for your time tonight. i want to bring into the conversation the staff writer at the atlantic and a man who knows a lot about servitude on capitol hill. our mutual friend has an op-ed

today asking the big question here which is, will they show a back bone? if republicans say yes to this group of trump's picks for the cabinet, or allow trump his recess appointments neutering the right to give advice and consent, that means he'll do anything. theres no use to hold your breath unless you want to suffocate. if matt gaetz gets confirmed to attorney general, it's off to the races for donald trump. how are you looking at this? what is your over/under that republicans show a back bone? >> i think it is offer to the races no matter what. the rule i've followed since the beginning is that when in doubt, republican there's show no spine whatsoever. and i think that's even less likely now given the republicans who are no longer there. there are no mitt romneys, jeff flakes around anymore. those days are so over. i think it is somewhat likely because there's so much noise around matt gaetz.

i do buy the thing, this is a loyalty test. i think the fallback option, ken paxton or, i don't know, matthew whittaker, people who are out there, are probably, matt gaetz makes them all the more confirmable. and i think that matt gaetz, once the incredible shock and awe of his appointment wears off and the incredible trolling value of it is not someone who knows how to run the day the day operation of a huge and complicated and very chaotic agency which will become even more so after the inevitable farings and mass resignations that someone coming in to the organization will bring. i would say it's possible. maybe even a little more than possible that this nomination doesn't go through. i also think it portends absolutely nothing for donald trump. >> i hear what you're saying, maybe there's a glimmer of a chance that he's so out there, and the back-up candidates are,

you know, sufficiently conservative that maybe gaetz's nomination is killed in the crib. that requires donald trump to back down. and it's really hard for me to imagine trump, who is feeling himself, given the results of the election, it is his party in charge of confirming these nominees. it's hard to imagine donald trump in one of the opening acts of his second term saying i'll give you another option. that doesn't seem trumpian. for anyone doubting how hard core donald trump's fan club of one is, he said after meeting the house gop on wednesday, i suspect i won't be running again unless you say he's so good. we've got to figure something else out. he's already dangling a third term out there. in case anybody is, you know, considering second-guessing him. >> donald trump believes he has every reason to feel completely un, you know, uninhibited.

the results of the election certainly underscore that a little bit. the other side is will there be few republicans other than the usual suspects who might in this case grow a pair of courage -- grow a pair of courage, and maybe be the first people out of mark who will be willing to defy him. tom tillis of north carolina, john cassidy of louisiana. two people who, you know, have had some ambivalence recently. and i think tillis is up in a couple years. so there's some potential out there. those people will immediately volunteer to be the next person suspect potential troll victim which is not a fun place to be and one that has driven a lot of people out of the senate and the house and even thinking about working for another administration. >> do you think, i mean, as you look at the land scape now, mark, do you think trump will get all of his people? put matt gaetz in his own

category. i mean, even if matt gaetz doesn't make it, that means that pete hegseth is the sect of defense. it means tulsi gabbard is the director of national intelligence. rfk jr. is the health and human services secretary. is he going to bat a thousand? >> i would think it is probably unlikely that he'll bat a thousand. whether it is strategic or not, the flooding of the zone this week of putting all these somewhat each more outrageous than the next out there makes it pretty likely that there will be one, possibly two sacrificial victims of this. and again, that implies, or that suggests that there will be a couple of republicans willing to be out there on that. i think the larger kind of surprise i feel like about this week, if you look at the middle of the week when gaetz was nominated, was that actually, republicans on the hill are freaking out about this. are you kidding me? like what about, what did he say on the campaign that made you think that he might take a more

moderate position? or he might take a more governing position? and look. this is something they campaigned for the last two years and this is the environment they have to govern. >> yeah. and there is the man they chose not to impeach weeks after an insurrection he staged at their workplace. this is what you get. enjoy the harvest rft seeds you have sewn. my friend, thank you for spending a little of your friday night with me. >> thank you. still to come this evening, senate democrats are racing to confirm dozens of president biden's judicial nominees before donald trump takes office. and outgoing senator joe manchin is actually planning to help. first, top brass in the u.s. military is bracing for a pentagon purge. new reporting reveal the trump administration may already have a list of names for the chopping block. house armed service member ro joins me next. ro joins me next

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i think mark milley has to be recalled to active duty on the afternoon of the 20th. i think a military tribunal, a court-martial has to be called or impaneled a court-martial. and mark milley has to be brought up on charges in a court-martial. >> that was steve bannon earlier this evening relishing the

thought of president-elect donald trump exacting revenge on the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. the now retired general mark milley who has reportedly called trump the most dangerous person to this country and a fascist. as the transition to trump 2.0 gets underway, trump and his allies have their eyes set on retribution and their plans are coming into focus. the "wall street journal" reports on the establishment of a warrior board to review and recommend the removal of senior officers deemed unfit for leadership. and new reporting from reuters reveals that trump's team is drawing up its own list of military officers to be fired. a list that could include the chairman of the joint chiefs as well as any and all officers connected to former chairman milley. according to one source, there is a very detailed list of everybody that was affiliated with milley and they will all be gone. joining me now, congressman ro

khanna. congressman, thank you for being here. first, the retribution and the revenge fantasies are so transparent and so, you know, on the front burner. what is your reaction to that? and can anything be done? >> well, here's my concern. what is putin and russia thinking as he's reading this? what is xi jinping thinking in china? this is putting our troops at risk, this kind of chaos and threatening to hollow out the ranks of the military. my hopes is we have a republican chairman, mike rogers. we have disagreements but i respect him. i respect other people like rob whitman on the committee. i hope the committee will put the national security of this country and the strength of the department of defense over politics. because we need to stand up to sort of any kind of chaos that could ensue. >> we're hearing that among the people that the trump team is targeting is the chairman of the

joint chiefs. he started his term last october. chairman of the joint chiefs usually serve four-year terms. it would seem to have implications to oust a sitting chairman of the joint chiefs for no particular reason other than you don't like him i wonder if you think house republicans will stand in the way of that, given the general sort of climate among house republicans as it comes to standing up to donald trump. >> i saw your previous segment. this will be a test. actually, this test goes beyond just confirmations. this goes to the heart of our national security. i mean, this is a bynum committee. the armed services committee. we disagree on the levels of spending. but most times, we operate in a bynum way. i was just with the chairman in jordan and saudi arabia and israel. it was very much an american national interest. and i would hope that my colleagues on the other side would see that just firing generals, especially at this point where we need to make sure that ukraine just doesn't fall

to putin would be a big mistake. i would hope they would realize that at the time the military is having to challenge recruiting, that sending a signal that you're going to fire the joint chiefs is a mistake. and it is really going to be a test for the republicans only committee. >> can i get your thoughts on pete hegseth? he's out there. this is a person with no experience running a massive bureaucracy like the u.s. military. and he is suggesting that again, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff was a d.e.i. hire. was he hired because of his skin color or his skill? we'll never know but always doubt which on its face seems unfair to c.q. since he's made the race car one of his biggest calling cards, it doesn't much matter. i am old enough to remember when the whole gist of this, you know, being american was putting country before party and especially for republicans and especially when it came to the u.s. military.

what is the net effect of someone who is the defense secretary saying these explicitly racial and racist things going the sitting chairman of the joint chiefs? what does that do to morale among troops? >> it is so offensive. even the republicans on the committee start out by praising the joint chiefs' military brilliance, his advice. you can disagree with him but that's just insulting. and you're insulting the officers. you're insulting so many people who are enlisted. so many people who are working hard to recruit new members into the military. i hope that there are colleagues of mine who will speak out against that. in the past, they have always, as you pointed out, put our troops and national security beyond politics. and this is very, very concerning. i'm also concerned, i don't care as much about every detail of his background but i'm concerned about what that means about his ability to make sure there is no sexual discrimination in the military. as you know, there have been a

lot of those issues. they worked in a bynum way to try to clean that up. there are a lot of questions about his leadership and i hope republicans will have the courage to speak out. >> does pete hegseth have the organizational skills to even carry out a massive purge inside the pentagon? is that viable? >> i think the reality is he will just be for donald trump. i would not underestimate donald trump's capability to do that. the question becomes, will congress stand up to the executive branch? in our federalist payments we always thought congress would never cede power to the executive branch. we would have too much pride in our own prerogative. well, they didn't count on the republican party that is afraid of a tweet by donald trump. and really, this is going to be a question of whether we're going to stand up to trump. whoever he puts at the fence is just doing his bidding. plenty of republicans, mike

gallagher, mike rogers who i disagree with that he could have chosen. but he's chosen someone who will really just do his bidding. >> the framers never conceived of a man like donald trump. and here we are. really appreciate your perspective on this. >> thank you. we have much more to get to including the list of things donald trump has very erroneously taken credit for. it is a long list. this week, it got a little longer. that is coming up. but first, before the end of the year, president biden has a chance to break an important record set by donald trump. can he do it? find out what that record is. ths chase really knows how to put the hart in your local community. see what i did there? hey, jackie! (♪♪) evan, my guy! you're helping them with savings, right? (♪♪) i wish i had someone like evan when i started.

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with republicans in control of the executive and legislative branches and the supreme court dominated by a conservative majority, the lower federal courts may be the most powerful bulwark against trumpism in the years ahead. and before he leaves the white house, president joe biden may be able to do something about that by installing a record number of federal judges. donald trump sent the current record confirming 234 federal judges in his first term in office. but joe biden is a close second,

having already confirm 215 judges including three just this week. and he is not done. senate majority leader chuck schumer told democrats yesterday to prepare for a final push to confirm as many judges as possible in these last few weeks before the next congress begins. that effort got a boost yesterday when senator joe manchin of west virginia signaled he is willing to back the judicial nominees even those without republican support because as manchin said, we are in different times right now. yes, we are, joe manchin. joining me now, msnbc legal correspondent, and dear friend of the program, lisa, thank you for spending time here on your friday night. let me get to the notion of the lower courts and from your bigger, you know, the 30,000 foot view here. how essential they can and should be in acting as a guardrail to trump's most potentially unlawful measures during a second term.

>> alex, when bit what a trump second term looks like, the lower courts, the district courts, are imperative that they remain guardrails. we saw that really during trump's first term, particularly around the muslim ban, around the attempts to add the citizenship question by the census bureau. there were any number of attempts made by the trump administration to change policies in ways that felt blatant unconstitutional and of course, our district courts were the first line of defense, and in many cases, issuing what then attorney general bill barr complained about. nationwide injunctions that prevented those policies from taking place and being implemented. >> i mean, it seems like we should hold out hope that those courts will do what they're supposed to do regardless of who the judges are, partisan, that they're not acting in partisan fashion. the reality is that, you know, independent and apart from these

judgeship that's we're talking about, the looming prospect of trump 2.0 is shaping judges' decisions in ways not really seen before. and i'm talking particularly about january 6th defendants and those who have been convicted of crime. there are two judges that have already delayed sentencing for january 6th rioters over the assumption that they're ultimately going to get pardons from donald trump. can you talk about how unusual that is for judges to preemptively assume it is pointless to sentence someone convicted of a crime? >> i'm not really aware of any other analog. before we condemn those judges and say they're throwing up their hands and feeling helpless, i want to provide a counter view about what might be going through their minds. in the district of columbia where all of these cases are situated, the courts have been entirely overwhelmed by january 6th and the caseload that it has brought upon these judges. that means for other litigants, they are having to wait longer to have motions disposed of or to go to trial and it has

literally clogged up the federal courts in d.c. so if i'm a judge, thinking through what my caseload looks like, who else is waiting for trial, i might not want to use judicial resources right now on a case where i know the defendant is going to get pardoned. particularly if it means delaying justice for someone else and if it means calling in jurors whose efforts are only going to be futile several weeks to months from now. think about how that affects potential jurors out there in d.c., to see 12 of their peers stand in judgment of someone only to have it wiped clean later. it doesn't really inspire confidence in the concept of jury service, which as you and i know, next to voting, is one of the most elemental things about our democracy. >> yeah, and i wonder how broad the scope of pardons will be. donald trump has expressed a deal for getting people off the hook. at the same time, in an interview in april with "time" magazine, trump said in a way

that only trump can, if someone is evil and bad, i would look at that case differently. it's hard to expect the naturally unexpected whims of donald trump, lisa. would you expect that someone like enrique tarrio will get off the hook? how ambitious do you think the trump justice department, or trump can be in terms of issuing these pardons? >> my mantra for the next four years and counting is expect the unexpected. i don't put anything past the ambitions of the trump administration and their allies. that having been said, to the extent that president-elect trump keeps his promise to look at this on a case by case basis, he doesn't have to pardon people for folks to necessarily get off the hook. there are a number of cases that have not yet been tried as we were discussing. the department of justice could dismiss those cases entirely. and therefore, without pardoning individual defendants, make

their legal problems go away because once a fought department of justice would come into being after this trump administration, they would be well past statutes of limitations. so there are various ways to make these legal problems go away for people. whether it is through a pardon or not. >> as we talk about trump escaping accountability for his potentially criminal actions, we talk about his allies getting pardons. there's one guy that can't seem to get off the hook and that guy is rudy giuliani. he had to do some things today as part of his defamation suit. can you talk more about how rudy is paying the piper? >> so rudy for the first time has officially turned over some but not all of the property that he's been ordered by a manhattan federal court judge to turn over to ruby freeman and shea moss, the two election workers that he defamed when he accused them of passing a thumb drive back and forth between them. it turned out to be a ginger mint and he ruined their lives in the process. he now owes them $148 million

per jury verdict in washington, d.c. she sued rudy giuliani to recover some of what he owes them. today he handed over to them his vintage mercedes-benz, originally driven by the actress lauren bacall, and two watches. that's a start. but not even a considerable dent in what he owes them. his most substantial thing is his manhattan apartment and as far as we know, that is not yet in the women's possession. >> let focus in this moment on the fact that rudy giuliani had to hand over a vintage mercedes-benz, a watch. there's just a little justice. thank you for making the time tonight. >> thanks for having me. still ahead, the current president of the united states is still joseph biden. donald trump will not be president until january 20th, 2025. keep that in mind. donald trump wants you to

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the reason some people think, i don't remember that economy when he first came in being pretty good. yeah. it was pretty good. it was my economy. judge that was former president

barack obama in the final days of the harris campaign expressing some legitimate frustration that donald trump is taking credit for the 75 straight months of job growth that took place before trump's first term ever began. and now it's about to happen again. donald trump is on the verge of once again sweeping in and taking all the credit for the economic stewardship of his democratic predecessor. to put a finer point on this, take a look at the unemployment rate for the last three presidents. when barack obama took office at the height of the financial crisis, in january of 2009, the unemployment rate was 7.8%. when obama left office in january of 2017, the unemployment rate had been cut nearly in half and was just 4.7%. donald trump then took credit for a booming job market right up until the country was hit by a global pandemic. and trump's colossal mismanagement of that crisis caused the unemployment rate to

skyrocket once again. when trump left office, the unemployment rate was back up to 6.4%. joe biden then managed to bring unemployment back down to 4.1% where it sits today as donald trump is set to retake power. a similar story with inflation which spiked after the pandemic all across the globe. president biden actually positioned the u.s. as a global leader in bringing down inflation, taking it from 9.1% in june of 2022 to just 2.6% today. republicans taking credit for democratic economies is not really anything all that new. as my friend and colleague, steve, has pointed out before, over the last 35 years, employers have added roughly 51 million jobs in the united states and 50 million of them, as in 98%, have been created during democratic administrations.

trump's cynicism make him uniquely able to take credit. >> in fact he's already begun. >> we had three or four, i guess every day we set new records in the stock market. we set new records economically. the only thing is, mr. speaker, i think it is important. maybe should you pass a bill. you have to start my term from november 5th, okay? or november 6th if you want. november 5th, because the market has gone through the roof. >> that was donald trump last night saying he wants credit for the stock market even before his term begins. the challenge for democrats over these next four years will be to try to make the american public understand what progress is a direct result of democratic policies and what destruction and chaos is a direct result of

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this week scientists at the national oceanic and atmospheric administration, noaa, announced there is a greater than 99% chance that this year, 2024, will be the hottest year on record. it is a fitting back drop as leaders from nearly 200 countries are meeting right now in baku, azerbaijan, at the summit on climate change known as cop 29. as has happened before, it has been the kargt of protests and criticisms for lacking the urgency to confront what is the most existential threat of our time. this year there is particular urgency given the election of donald trump. a man who not only has denied the exist intelligence of

climate change but also promised to reverse any and all progress that has been made to reduce fossil fuel emissions. joining me now, an opinion writer at the "new york times" and author of the uninhabitable earth. thanks for being here. we learned that trump is aiming to appoint doug burgum, secretary of the interior, and the chairman of a newly formed national energy council. the focus of which is to increase oil and gas production in the united states. and he's appointing lee zeldon, a climate change skeptic, to head the e.p.a. i'm sure you have thoughts on both of these. which do you think is most damaging to the climate movement? >> i think the e.p.a. position is the bigger deal. i think in the global picture, especially as we deal with cop, it is important to note what we're seeing right now is the abandonment of pretense to american leadership on climate the world over. people are looking around the

world. they've looked at america with some skepticism for years now. we are the biggest producer of oil and gas in the world. the biggest exporter of it, too. but the re-election of donald trump has really sent a clear signal to people worried about climate everywhere around the world that this fight is not going to be won with american leadership. and it is quite striking to me as someone who has followed this so long. if you said to me five or ten years ago that the clearestine sign that china might have passed america would be on climate, i would not have believed you. i think that is where we are now. >> can you elaborate more on that? the implications of america, the globe not being able to count on us and china being the de facto leader in this fight? >> in terms of of how fast the plannest decarbonizes, i'm not sure it is that consequential. we've started to unleash a program of rapid renewable rollout, almost everywhere in the world over the last few years, and a lot of that will be

done by market forces whether or not policy follows. to the extent we were hoping for additional policy leverage to be placed on these issues, and in particular, to the extent we're hoping the global north would help the developing countries in the world decarbonize and department to the brutal world they would be finding themselves living in in short order, the american, the evacuation of american leadership is really costly. it means many more countries will feel like they're navigating this on their own or forced to develop ad hoc relationships with other nations rather than working altogether in this sort of, you know, the global system that the u.s. used to preside over. as i said, the transition is unfolding. if we're hoping to accelerate it rather than watch it continue on the same pace it is on today, probably american leadership would be helpful there. and i don't think we'll be getting it the next four years. >> when you talk about market forces, it seems pretty clear the market is intent to some degree on moving forward with

green renewables when you have the head of exxon saying to trump, don't withdraw from the paris climate deal. and will other folks saying, look, the e.v.'s are here to stay. elon musk is in the administration effectively. how optimistic are you that whatever trump tries, the reality is that the green economy is in the united states and it's here to stay. >> i think we will stay on something at the course from the biden administration. a lot of that has been concentrated in red states which means it is even more durable but we will produce oil and gas at record levels. we are getting to the point in the climate crisis where the rubber hits the road. at some point we need to stop pulling it out of the ground and burning it and find some ways to rely exclusively on green energy. the u.s. is not in a place politically to force that development. instead we will be doing all of the above. doing a lot of green stuff