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afghanistan. plus, the president-elect sales past the deadline to submit an ethics pledge stating that he will avoid conflicts of interest while serving in office. and in tonight's worst of the week, the senator who won't stop talking about election conspiracy theories, even after his party won. i'm melissa murray in for ayman. let's do this. tonight nbc news is exclusively reporting the trump transition team is making a list of senior current and former u.s. military officers who were directly involved in the 2021 afghanistan withdrawal. more importantly, they are exploring whether those individuals could be court- martialed for their role in the withdrawal. a person with knowledge of these discussions told nbc news , quote, they are taking it very seriously. nbc news has reached out to the trump transition team for comment but they have yet to

respond. trump's pick for defense secretary, fox news host pete hegseth has called the withdrawal from afghanistan a quote humiliating retreat. he said the united states lost the war and wasted billions of dollars in the process. let's bring in david road, nbc news senior executive editor for national security. david, some of the currently serving officers who could be targeted for possible martial include army general andrew pappas, who served as the director of the joint staff for general millie, as well as vice chief of staff of the army general james mingus, who also served under millie on the joint staff as director of operations. have you heard any reaction yet from these current or former military officials about their targeting, or whether they have heard if they could be facing repercussions? >> we have not heard anything about this specific, the preparations of this list. i'm not sure many people knew

about it. in the past, many officials have said, they sort of questioned these allegations. i mean, one of the core problems here is there was talk of a court-martial, but all of these officers were following the orders of the biden administration. the biden administration decided that the u.s. should withdraw from afghanistan, and more portly, so did the trump administration. donald trump, when he was in office, signed an agreement with the taliban that agreed to pull all 13,000 u.s. troops out of afghanistan. biden continued with that agreement and made the final pullout of about 2500 occur. but most reviews of what happened in afghanistan, and it was chaotic, blames both administrations. so we will see how this plays out. it is clearly unsettling to these members of the military, but it is very unclear how these people could be court- martialed for following the orders, at that point, of

president biden. they were lawful orders from the commander in chief. >> you just referenced the chain of command, which military folks understand. you take your orders as you get them, without question. could this have a chilling effect, both within the military, and with the united states public who are trying to process this news, and this deviation from the expectation that enlisted officers follow the instructions of their commanders? >> they do, and then there is also the obligations, if it is an unlawful order, if it is an unconstitutional order, members of the military will not carry them out. but these were lawful orders. again, it was a chaotic withdrawal. but it was the policy of both administrations to withdraw u.s. forces from afghanistan. in terms of the chilling effect, it is a broader pattern of this talk of court marshaling military officers, of prosecuting jack smith, the special counsel who is investigating trump, of prosecuting letitia james, the

new york attorney general who is interested getting trump. so it is a pattern of criminally prosecuting people. i mean, many trump supporters will say he has been unfairly criminally prosecuted. i have talked to many people who worked on those cases, they said no, there was serious evidence of him mishandling classified documents and order and serious evidence of misconduct him surrounding the 2020 election. but this is all unprecedented, as you said, this degree, this talk of court marshals and prosecutions for members of the previous administration. >> david, my nyu colleague notes that a standard feature of autocracies is taking control of both the legal institutions and also the military institutions. you just mentioned letitia james for their work prosecuting donald trump. is this an attempt to take control of the military and

eliminate it as a guard rail against the future trump administration ? >> it is too early to say that. this is, at most, a lot of misinformation and conspiracy theory. there were all these things that went on in the withdrawal from afghanistan. the primary failure of the intelligence officials in the u.s. military was thinking that afghan forces could fight and hold on and stop the taliban, and instead, afghan forces just collapsed. but it is being painted as this sort of easily presentable, sorry, preventable debacle. it is just unclear what will happen, it is easy for people to say these things, and when they actually get into power and see the records and hear explanations, people on the ground, it is not often the big conspiracy that folks think. >> when we have had questions about chaotic or unsuccessful military withdrawals or military endeavors like and gabi, for example, that has

typically been followed with a congressional investigation and hearing. not necessarily with proceedings in court marshals. how unprecedented is this, to move this to the military system of justice? >> that, you are right to fight that. because we have congressional hearings, and there is lots of posturing that goes on. but you have reviews. the 9/11 commission, you know, a very thorough, very successful review of how the 9/11 attacks were missed and how they occurred that resulted in major reforms in the u.s. government. and you have had military special commissions that have done this before, that is appropriate. court marshals are extraordinarily unusual. this is a judicial process, possibly people being imprisoned in the military prison for misconduct. so it is very unusual. is it bluster? we just don't know. but this is what is happening. >> david road, thanks so much for those insights. we appreciate it. next up, we will get more on trump's pick for defense

secretary, pete hegseth , as well as the role that far right media and fringe podcasts could play in this new trump administration. all of that up next . style your life the way you want. ♪♪ tresemme, style your way.

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before the break, we discussed nbc news exclusive reporting that donald trump's transition team was exploring whether military officials directly involved in the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan in 2021 can be court-martialed.

trump's pick for defense secretary, fox news host pete hegseth, has been a staunch critic of the afghanistan withdrawal, saying that the united states lost the war and wasted billions of dollars in the process. hegseth was a junior officer in the minnesota army national guard. he served overseas, but he has never actually held a senior military position . he also has never served in government, and has no experience in government. what hegseth is known for is his war on woke , which includes arguing against women serving in combat roles, and regularly mocking and is jittering transgender servicemembers. he also says that the next president should quote clean house at the pentagon by getting rid of woke generals, and claims that the promotion of diversity equity and inclusion at the nation's service academies has made the military quote effeminate.

now, during trump's first term, we also saw a steady stream of fox personalities turned white house officials. there was john bolton and kayleigh mcenany and monica crowley. but many observers noted that boxed's efforts to paint trump and his government in the best possible light was augmented by those hard-liners in the white house. but where it really took a hard line was at events like charlottesville and the january 6th insurrection, where fox and those hard-liners in the white house tried to put a good face on the trump administration's missteps and lapses. network stars like sean hannity and jeanine pirro literally campaigned for trump, making clear the connections between the network and the administration and campaign. and while donald trump flirted with fringe conservative outlooks like elion and newsmax, it is always clear that fox was in the pole position as the administration's preferred mouthpiece. now, as we enter trump's second term, the right-wing media landscape has changed considerably. and, to the incoming administration's profound advantage. trump will now have the support

of fringe podcasters like steve bannon and tucker carlson, who have already spread conspiracy theories on his behalf. and then there is a whole new world of podcasting, which includes pro trump hosts charlie kirk and ben shapiro, and the hugely influential anti-woke podcast machine headed by joe rogan. this time around, trump will also have the backing of elon musk, who has successfully managed to transform twitter/x into a right-wing echo chamber that aids trump and the republican party. what makes trump's incoming second term more frightening than the first is the fact that the new president-elect will have an empire, a are right voice in his ear, but also in the countries here to defend him at all cost. and now one of those voices may have command over the u.s. military. second only, of course, to donald trump's command. joining me now to discuss all of this is angela carson, the

president of media matters, as well as daniel moody, the host of the daniel moody show and cohost of democracy on youtube. finally, joining us, rick wilson, the cofounder of the lincoln project and the author of the best-selling book running against the devil, a plot to save america from trump and the democrats from themselves. rick, i will start with you. what is your reaction to this new nbc news exclusive reporting about the military withdrawal from afghanistan, and how does this fit into the nomination of pete hegseth, both in terms of his reputation and his public comments? >> what, i think that everyone has objectively look at this and recognizes that pete hegseth, although he was a platoon commander when he served in the national guard, has zero experience. he is not qualified to run a waffle house. he has no managerial experience at all, and you are asking him to go in managing $900 billion operation with 2.5 million men and women who serve in the active reserve and national guard.

750,000 civilian employees around the world. the most complex and difficult assignment in government. i can tell you, i worked as a very, very junior aid to a secretary of defense, and this is the biggest job in the world. this is a guy who reads off a teleprompter, he is a complete lightweight, he lacks the intellectual skills. but he does have what trump wants, which is malice and obedience. i think that if you end up with this guy bringing retired military officers into court marshals, you are going to shatter the cohesiveness and effectiveness of leadership in the military. they are going to recognize that the long tradition of nonpartisan military leadership will be broken and that the authoritarianism of trump has affected one of the most important institutions in our country. >> angelo, you and your colleagues at media matters have documented much of hegseth's extremism, including his history of islamophobic rhetoric.

can you talk a little bit more and maybe augment what rick has said about the significance of someone who has taken such extreme positions as hegseth has, being considered for this top position in an institution that is tabulated by a very diverse group of people? >> yeah, i will start there. part of it is, one of the important parts of the military is readiness. to be prepared. and two of the things that he represents sort of undercut that. one is this idea of the misogyny, and a reduced role that women would play in the military. everyone universally accepts that doing that would actually reduce the military's readiness. that is the first thing. i will absolutely have an effect. but beyond that is his loyalty. it is poisoned not just by islamophobia, it is something even broader and bigger than that, which is that he sees the world through crusader terms. and he sees the military, the united states military, sort of as a flaming sword for christ, that it is engaged in not just national security, it is also engaged in a religious battle. and that is important to sort of stamp out and snuff out the

rise of islam across the globe, but one of the things he has lamented on several occasions is that muslims are having too many babies by comparison to christians. and that presents a problem for cultural dominance down the road and we need to be thinking about this right now. that, to me, is the two big pieces. aside from all the experience questions, there are people who have assessed that. for me it's those two things. what he represents in terms of unit readiness, and the second is a worldview that is poisoned by this grand narrative that presents the military as an instrument, not just for trump's authoritarianism, which is extremely scary, and he is fully obedient. but also for this broader sort of christian worldview. >> so, danielle, i appreciate angelo making the connections with this christian evangelicalism and theocracy. i want to further this by talking about the war on woke, and hegseth's assault on certain aspects of the military

that he views as being unnecessarily attentive to dei. post 9/11, one of the things that was identified as a real vulnerability in the military was its failure to be a diverse institutions, that you had have individuals who are capable of translating farsi and urdu and whatnot, and it could not be your standard military intelligence community, it had to be more diverse. how is this war on woke going to affect our preparedness and readiness, and perhaps make us more vulnerable going forward? >> that is exactly the point, it is going to make us more vulnerable around the world. we are living in extraordinarily dangerous times, we have multiple wars that are happening. globally. we are going to have somebody whose main qualification is going on television to talk about women being in combat and needing to be in the home, or somebody who is talking against transgender people and saying that that is the biggest problem in america. what disturbs me about this man the most is the fact that he wants to use the u.s. military against american citizens. that is what he has said. he has said that we need to

source out the deep state, that we need to will get rid of the people who are liberal, that are progressive. that we have been paying too much attention to what is been happening overseas and not enough attention to what is happening in america. so, for the first time in our nations history, we are up against a possible secretary of defense that sees the american people as the enemy. and that is something that is incredibly, incredibly dangerous. and that is what authoritarianism looks like. >> so, not only is this someone who has made noise about using the military against individual citizens, protesters, he is someone who does not have a lot of experience. and that really is something that stands out. how will that lack of experience really change things at the department of defense? >> look, it will be catastrophic for the department. it will be catastrophic for men and women in uniform. this job requires that you have the ability to be a diplomat. that you have the ability to manage an enormously globe

spanning enterprise, not only on the military side, but on the procurement side, on the acquisition side, on the personnel side. this job is so much bigger than a lightweight like this guy. he is a nobody, who donald trump has noticed because he is on fox news. no one would hire this guy in a senior sees we position in any firm in the country. and the department of defense is at a scale and complexity that is so far beyond this wet brained example of fox news personalities that it is indescribable how much bigger this job is than this little man. >> all right, we are going to have the panel stick around to hear more after the break. coming up, we will also talk about how trump has blown through transition deadlines. sparking true concerns about national security. that is coming up. p.

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donald trump will not be inaugurated president for another 64 days, but he might already be on the wrong side of the law. the president-elect has still not submitted an ethics pledge stating that he will avoid conflicts of interest while serving in office. under the presidential transition act, both presidential candidates are legally required to submit an ethics plan and a conflict of interest statement by october 1st. that was more than a month ago. by refusing to comply with this law, trump's transition team is prevented from participating in national security briefings or from gaining access to the federal agencies. this is before his administration begins a complicated work of assuming command of those agencies on january 20th. as senator elizabeth warren posted on x, quote, donald trump and his transition team are already breaking the law. i would know, because i wrote the law. this is what illegal corruption looks like,". back to me now is discuss all of this are angelo, danielle,

and rick. daniel, the watchdog group citizens for response ability and ethics in washington have identified more than 3400 conflicts of interest that were tied to the first trump administration. is this perhaps why the trump administration transition team has been slow to get this round of ethics paperwork in? >> i mean, yes. and the fact that they are just overt criminals. and nothing happened to them in the first administration in terms of not following the laws. donald trump, what did he do? he passed over business to his son. he did not stop having involvement in his empire. so there have been no effects for him to not follow what is the norm. he has broken all of them. so while i appreciate senator warren for bringing that to our attention, the entire operation has been criminal over the last several years. and we have not seen anything happen from that except court cases and indictments, but donald trump is going to be back in the oval office in 64 days. >> so, rick, there may not be account ability for failing to comply with this law, but we do

know that one of the lessons from 9/11 is just how important this transition period is for national security. the 9/11 commission report found that due to the timeline, because of the contest in the 2000 election between bush and gore, there was a rushed presidential transition process, and that actually may have been a factor in the government not being prepared for 9/11. is this lack of compliance and its consequences being barred for national security briefings and from agency briefings, is this going to be a real problem for us going forward in terms of national security? >> look, i think our national security is about to be deeply compromised by the fact that donald trump once told gabbard to become the director of national intelligence, someone that was so pro-russia i'm surprised she does not wake up to the international on her phone every morning for an alarm. donald trump is not a person who believes that our national security is important.

he puts it in secondary position to his own impulses, his own greed, his own desires. so i am not shocked that he is not signing these ethics agreement, i am not shocked that he is not cooperating on this. because he believes he is above the law, and he is a criminal, as we are now aware, who has been told over and over again he cannot be prosecuted. the supreme court has now given him a get out of jail free forever card. please going to break the law however he chooses, and the fact of the matter is that no one in the republican party will give about it, they will laugh about it and think it is the greatest thing in the world. >> speaking of owning things, that includes musk attending meetings with foreign leaders. he has reportedly received $2 billion in investments from the saudi government public investment fund. now he will reportedly be an outside adviser to trump on the middle east.

are you worried about a lack of guardrails, both in terms of corruption and just generally being able to profit from the presidency, or adjacency to the presidency? >> yeah, that is a concern, right? it's a real thing. here is what makes it so real and ties it in with the larger conversation, that part of these ethics things and these basic ways in which you engage with government to prevent people exploiting it, but also to have some degree of good governance, good transition, enough information. have these basic norms. the law and the norms on top of it, which is how people behave. one of the things that is being demonstrated right now is that they are not going to follow the norms. and maybe that's okay, some norms, but they have to be updated or change. the big thing is they are not going to follow them. for a few reasons. number one, the most important, because they don't have to. and one of the reasons they don't have to is elon musk himself, and that broader right- wing media landscape reflects. it is so big because it gives

them two things, narrative dominance and squelching power. that means they can define what most of the country talks about on any given day, so they can distract, deflect, or draw attention to all kinds of other trumped up charges against generals, they are so high on their own supply of misinformation that that is the big story of the day. but they can also squelch. so when they have these flareups or moments, or if three or four months from now we find out that this lack of ethics, this sort of lack of ethics pledge has led to a whole bunch of corruption during this time period from a whole range of individuals, all the way down to real serious national security threats because of improper handover, they will squelch it. no one will talk about it, no one will know about it. the lack of accountability is not just in terms of the law, it is also in public opinion. and that, to me, is the real thing that scares me. that they built a system that is designed not just to smash the status quo, to smash the norms, including ones that we really need for safety and

security, but to enable and facilitate it. and that is where the broader right-wing media echo chamber comes in. that is the thing that really scares me, that there is no safety net, let alone know guardrails. >> daniel, you are nodding vigorously. chimed in. >> angela, everything that he said is 100% correct. they have dealt an infrastructure that the left has not. they have all of these people, from the levels of podcaster, influencers, all the way up to an entire network called fox that has been amplifying their messages for the last nine years. ever since donald trump came down that escalator, all the media has been entrapped in is everything he is doing, where is he moving, what is his claim, what's happening? and everything has been about reaction. nothing has been about what is the narrative that the american people want. what is it that we want to hear? this is why people are tapping out, because they are exhausted. and the reason for that exhaustion is because steve bannon said throw everything at the wall and see what sticks.

flood the zone. and that is what they have been successful at doing. so this is the problem that right now over the next several years, that the left, that progresses, that democrats actually need to think about, instead of moving to the center, this elusive center that does not actually exist anymore, they need to be thinking about what is our infra structure look like and how do we have the ground running? because we are already nine years behind. >> all right, everyone here is sticking around because the worst of the week is up next. don't take if allergic to qulipta®. most common side effects are nausea, constipation, and sleepiness. qulipta®. the forget-you-get migraine medicine™.

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>> let me tell you about matt gaetz. he loved the constitution. contrary to the fact of merit arlen, who could care less about the constitution, broke the law almost daily. you are talking about a contrast. but the attorney general has to be the head law enforcement officer in the country to protect our country and our president. >> that was senator tommy to ravel of alabama, throwing his support behind gates, throwing merrick garland, who is confirmed by the senate as a judge who interprets the constitution, and, in the process, catapulting himself into our very worst of the week. yes, tommy to ravel is pushing for donald trump's pick for attorney general, even though matt gaetz was once apparently

tangled up any sex trafficking investigation by the very same justice department he has been tapped to lead. this is a very unpopular take amongst most republicans, who have signaled that matt gaetz will not be confirmed in the senate. and if that wasn't enough, to ravel also had this to say a full week after election night. >> one of the things i really want to do is straighten this dang voting up across our country. we did not get killed down ballot, but let me tell you something. donald trump pulled out more people to vote for him, and how in the world can some of these senators, and that's all i've looked at, i am sure a lot of it happened in the house, some of these senators received more votes, the democrats, then president trump. i mean, it it doesn't add up to how this went about. >> my dude, the republicans

just won the presidency and the senate and kept control of the house, and yet tommy turberville is still pushing election fraud conspiracies. my panel is back with me to break this down. rick, what to say about this? how does tommy turberville benefit from praising donald trump's selection of matt gaetz for ag, while also continuing to push election conspiracy theories? >> the most important thing to realize here is that tommy turberville is a more on. he is a truly catastrophically stupid person. to easily defeat him in a battle of wits. so he understands one thing he does well is to be a trump sycophant. the fact that he is talking about supporting matt gaetz for attorney general, a guy not just involved in a prior investigation, but a current house investigation concerning his involvement in having, paying teenage prostitutes and having shown a number of his colleagues on the house floor a

variety of obscene materials. the guy is a degenerate. but tommy knows that donald trump is his sort of sponsor, so he has at least enough hindbrain action to say what does trump want today? so he is going to suck up about matt gaetz. tommy is a perennial favorite on worst of the week, obviously. >> angelo, is this just a sycophantic display of loyalty, or is there some strategic end here? is tommy turberville trying to raise his profile with the right wing of the base? some of these comments were made on far right social media platforms in addition to traditional conservative outlets like fox. is there a grand plan here? >> i don't know if there is a grand plan, but there is little bit of instinct. heart of it is that because the landscape is so fragmented now, it used to be the case if you get yourself on fox you will get the attention of the right people, trump included, and you can send him a nice note and

let them know that you care, that you're out there, that he should consider your for some reward. but it's a lot harder now. trump is not only watching fox. he has reduced his fox consumption. he is spreading it around. the landscape is atomized. there is no center of gravity and right-wing media. so if you are him, there is a little bit of a jockeying, like a pinata person, they are all sort of scrambling to get their share and get some attention because they are trying to increase mother in linz. and i think the way they get that influence is by demonstrating their fidelity, their obedience. that is where these statements come from. but there is something else, also to illustrate that they also get it. if you notice, he said something really disturbing in the one comment about matt gaetz, not so much as defense of gaetz, but the thing that stood out to me was that he said that the attorney general is there to defend the constitution and donald trump. that is what we were talking about before. that is a post watergate norm. we have really reoriented what the ag is designed to do. is not to protect the

president. and he is unwinding that. that is good to be the thing to appeal to trump going forward. he is letting you know i'm going to be a sledgehammer in congress, you can allow me. that is what i find very unsettling. this is the beginning, not the end for him and others like him. >> danielle, let's talk about the sledgehammer aspect of all this. not only did he use those interviews to defendant matt gaetz and maybe to suggest that the ag position is actually the public defender for the president, he also used it to threaten other republicans who might be obstacles to this. so, is tommy turberville auditioning to be donald trump's muscle here? >> absolutely. everything time you see one of these senators, one of these representative's get on any right-wing media, that is what they are doing. they are trying to get donald trump's favor. if you get donald trump's favorites and you have a proximity to power and other people will listen to you. and that is exactly what it is he is doing. the fact that you would even try and defend matt gaetz when other republicans are coming out and saying the man does not

have the wits, he does not have the skill, he does not have the breath to be able to do the job of ag. but also, he is under investigation. and has been under investigation for years. why didn't it come to a head? because, well, the department of justice told the house ethics committee to stand down while they were doing their own investigation. but the fact that a 17-year-old young girl has come out with her attorneys and said yes, there were relations that were there, and there are witnesses, and this is a man that we are going to put in charge of the department of justice, all of the thread that i see between these men that donald trump nominates his violence against women. that is there bonding mode, violence against women. that is what they all have. so tommy turberville, that's what he's doing. he is auditioning. he wants to be in trump's corner, he wants to be in trump's here, he wants to be important. the way you do that if you back whatever it is that donald

trump says. >> just to be clear, per standards, matt gaetz has been cleared of those charges, or those charges have been dropped, although he has not been cleared of them. to be very clear. rick, i want to go back to you. senator lindsey graham has also come out, perhaps to defend, but also to defend matt gaetz. he told fox news on thursday that we should all give matt gaetz a chance. what do you make of two very influential senators falling in line? will this influence other republicans who are going to have to vote on the gates nomination in due time? >> look, lindsey graham, every time i think he has had bottom he keeps digging. he is a guy who will abase himself for any reason for donald trump. lindsay is the alpha sycophant in a world around trump of sycophants. he sucks up to trump like an industrial water pump. this guy has nothing at all for pride, dignity, or probity left in his body. he will say anything he thinks will make trump happy. in the case of matt gaetz,

lindsey graham is the kind of guy who would've slapped matt gaetz around and said he can never be within 1 million miles of authority when lindsey graham was john mccain's wingmen. now he is donald trump, mr. john, can i go and wash your car? he will never stop demeaning himself to make trump happy. and this is just another way he thinks he can make trump happy. >> okay, the whole panel is staying put, because this week has been so bad that there is a bonus round of the worst of the week, and it is coming up, and it is featuring everyone's least favorite conspiracy theorist, alex jones. stay tuned. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase.

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what a week. in fact, it is been such a week and it is now time for worst of the week part two. that honor, or rather dishonor, goes to none other than infowars founder alex jones. alex jones is currently having an absolute meltdown because the onion , the satirical news site, bought his platform, infowars, out of bankruptcy. now jones is calling on the cavalry, that would be donald trump and elon musk, to save him . according to the onion the ceo ben collins, all of this started out as a joke. that was, until the bid to purchase infowars gained the support of the families of the

sandy hook victims. those victims are the individuals to whom jones owes nearly $1.5 billion for relentlessly calling their gun violence tragedy a hoax. now the onion is planning on relaunching the conspiracy theory incubator as, wait for it, a parody of itself. a bankruptcy judge has temporarily halted the sale, for now, but if it goes through, the onion has the opportunity to do the funniest thing ever. and i think it will actually be some kind of karmic justice for the sandy hook families he tormented for years. let's head back to the panel. danielle, the sale, which again, still needs to be approved by a bankruptcy judge, also includes jones lucrative dietary supplement store. the onion says it is going to halt the sales of those supplements immediately and joked that it will quote boil the contents down into a single candy bar sized omni vitamin

that one executive may eat in order to increase his power and perhaps become immortal. your comment? >> i just, this is so beautiful to me. there is not a lot of beauty and joy right now, but the fact that the onion is able to do this, and i hope that it goes all the way through, it is karmic for alex jones. to watch as his famed site is just torched and made a joke of, like he is a joke, it's going to be brilliant. it is the chefs kiss to all the things that he has done. and i don't think they should halt the vitamin sales, actually. i don't know, they are big, let all the proceeds go to the families. i have no idea. but my god. >> is this an episode of the onion making alex jones cry? i kind of love that. >> i love it so much. and he cries a lot. >> even more from the cutting miss of the onion. angelo, the onion buying

infowars is definitely a creative way of battling misinformation. should we make the onion the standardbearer for the post trump landscape? >> look, it would be one way to help balance the scales. because some of the way we are going to have to deal with this is just straight up ridicule. and that should not be the default, but sometimes it does have to be, and satire can be an effective way of illustrating the absurdity of what they are saying and what they're doing. yeah, i think it's a good tip. but the other thing, we should not dismiss, there is real power here in them purchasing this. there was a block mover here. alex jones himself acknowledged that he is going to lose all his production equipment, the brand he has built all of his time for. there's a lot of muscle memory and name recognition. all the copyrights to his videos. they are all gone. he fully acknowledged that this is going to be a speed bump in sort of the rapid way in which he has disseminated this information. we should not discount the influence he has these days, given how much power they organized on the fringes. let's not forget that the news

about kelsey gabbard being the dni was broken on alex jones's show just the day before he lost it in bankruptcy. he had finally gotten to the pinnacle of what he hoped for, and he lost it. >> rick, obviously we are making fun of the fact that the onion, a satirical new site, is going to purchase infowars if the sale is approved. but there is something really serious here. the fact that the sandy hook families, those parents of those children who were slaughtered in that gun violence episode also supported this. came in and supported the onion. what you make of that, and again, what you think of it in the landscape of these efforts to try and create guardrails around this right-wing media landscape and the president who sets a topic? >> look, i love the onion guys, they are hilarious and they are brilliant communicators, and satire does have its role. but i think there's another thing we have to keep in mind here, that is much as we want

to treat alex jones as a clownish figure who is selling generic pills on his website, he is able. he is a dark, dark, evil person. this is a bad guy. this is a guy who has spent years telling people lies that have sent them down these rabbit holes of violence and insanity and paranoia and conspiracy. and he knows it is a joke. he is an actor playing a role, and he knows what he's doing. but that makes it worse. that makes it more evil and more dark and more perverse. and you know, the idea that alex jones is somehow going to reboot this thing without his email list, without his studio, without his brand names, i think it, as angelo said, it is a much harder for him to climb back up out of this whole. and it is a whole i hope he stays in for a very, very long time. >> danielle, i'm going to give you the last word. you have 30 seconds. >> the last word in general? look, i think this is beautiful. i think that we have to go after

these bad actors in the best way that we possibly can, right? and what the onion is doing is setting an example that people need to follow. but satire, like we were saying, it has a place here. and things are going to get more ridiculous as we go on, and folks need to be able to both laugh and take action on it. >> angelo, danielle, rick, you have been the best of my week. thank you all, and thank you to all of the viewers for making time for us. i'm melissa murray, in bremen. come back tomorrow night on 7:30 p.m. eastern and msnbc. i will be speaking with dan goldman about the parties fight against trump's agenda and more. have a great night. ♪♪ missing out on the things you love because of asthma? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma that is taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions.

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thanks for joining us this hour, i'm really happy to have you ever heard the last time donald trump was president of