it isn't everything. it does mean something. [ applause ] >> as for heidi's family, their days are all about the kids and grandchildren. and parents who believe devoutly in a here after, always remember, of course, heidi. >> did you talk to heidi? >> oh yes, i did. >> what did you tell her? >> i said sweety, we finally got the answers we have been praying for and justice will be served. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. good morning, and welcome to this sunday edition of

"morning joe: weekend." another fast-moving week of news. here's the conversations you may have missed. >> it must be the worst nomination for a cabinet position in american history. i think this is something that falls well outside of the scope of deference that should be given to a president in nominating members a senior team. gaetz is not only totally incompetent for the job, he doesn't have the character. he's a person of moral perpitude, and this is a nomination the republican party should oppose. >> we will tick through the other nominees, but do you think he's the only one you may see real opposition to? or do you think there's others. >> i think gabbard's nomination, the immediate reaction was hilarious. she's not competent for the job. she may be the second worst.

>> john bolton yesterday reacting to the controversial trump nominations. he picked tulsi gabbard to be the director of national intelligence. gabbard is a lieutenant colonel and served in the hawaii national guard. she has never served on a congressional intelligence committee. in 2017 when she was in congress, gabbard received criticism for meeting with the syrian president who was accused of human rights violations and war crimes. gabbord defended her meeting saying he is not the enemy of the united states. she's often beened a odds with the assessments of the intelligence community and clashed with government analysts who say vladimir putin

is the primary prevayor of disinformation in the u.s. two years she was accused of promoting russian propaganda after posting a video online that claimed to show u.s. funded bioweapon labs in ukraine. she denied the allegation and also claimed the biden administration could have prevented the war in ukraine if it addressed russia's concerns about ukraine joining nato. >> willie, you know, as we said at the top of the show, we have done our best, since the election, and we plan to continue doing it, reporting it straight down the middle. if somebody were just tuning in and listening to the reactions

to gaetz and gabbord, they may say these are left wingers that don't like the reactions. there you saw john bolton. unlike the others that president trump laid out there, you actually go on the hill, and you will have republicans and democrats, both being critical of the selections, and i suspect republicans being more critical of the gaetz pick because they know him personally more and have had a lot of problems with him for many different reasons. with tulsi gabbard, talking to anybody on the intel committees, any republicans who have actually dealt with the gathering of intelligence, the sharing of intelligence with foreign governments, and they seem to be the ones right now most horrified by this. we talked about matt gaetz

before, but it's fair to say that tulsi gabbard is bipartisan shock as well because the conclusion is if she were to ever be in that position, other countries simply wouldn't share intel with the united states. >> i was going to say that, joe. you touched on it earlier. i heard from and read people saying the allies will not share information with us. the sympathetic view, the kindest view, she's a sympathizer of vladimir putin, syria, and i think tom nichols and others may take it a step further in who she is doing. let's bring in the staff writer for the atlantic. his latest piece is sulsi gabbord's nomination is a national security risk. can you explain why she you think she will be a risk to the

country? >> every federal employee has to sit through insider threat training to recognize people they think will be a hazard around classified material. people are deeply critical of the united states and its foreign policy, and seem to have a lot of affinity and meetings with foreign nationals. there's all kinds of alarm bells that go off here, and this nomination sets them all off. it's not someone you say sure, i will hand the crowned jewels of american intelligence to someone who as you pointed out, leaving aside, she's completely unqualified for the job, this is somebody who has consistently taken the side of people like vladimir putin even when she was a member of congress. there is absolutely no way that in any normal universe we would even be having the discussion of

trusting tulsi gabbard with the intelligence community. i think that one of the terrible things about the matt gaetz nomination, it was so cartoonishly shocking, it's wiped out talking about how completely unfit tulsi g abbard is and pete hegseth as well. two people defense you'd be shocked to know they are handling classified information. pete hegseth, part of the nuclear chain of command. this is donald trump, in a way, trolling the nation, mocking, i think, reverend sharpton said

it, mocking his own voters. these are about people who will punish donald trump's opponents, merely by the virtue of being in the jobs. there's no thought of, i don't know, what is best for america or american national security. >> right. right, right. right. jonathan, help me out here. you have obviously reported on president trump now for quite some time. let's look back over the last week, and he received 50% plus in the vote tally that came in. he did -- he swept the swing states. did far better than anybody had expected as far as that big of that route, praised by

republicans, and got respect from pros on what he did. certainly a lot of respect from wall street and business leaders, something he certainly likes to hear. laid out his first two or three picks that were met with, you know, met with, i think a good enough reception, and so everything seemed to be breaking his way. and again if you had a president who wanted to be 50% plus, he started off the first week well in that direction. i'm curious yesterday, one shock wave after another. obviously with matt gaetz, someone who is not qualified to do the job, and someone he knew would cause the reaction that it caused from republicans and democrats, same thing with

tulsi gabbard. i'm curious your best reporting on why that sharp turn when everything it seemed the first week to be going so smoothly. >> the people i have talked to around trump the last few days shows it's a case study of the competing impulses he has. he wants to be liked and receive praise from wall street and business leaders, and at the same time, he gives in to the darker instincts of revenge and retribution and those who flatter him. it's about his agenda. we should anticipate business leaders pushing back against tariffs or the mass deportations. will that get him to stop? we shall see. he was praised for his picks including marco rubio to be secretary of state, but then starting with pete hegseth, and

accelerating to gaetz and gabbard. it's promoting retribution what he said the entire term would be about. those around him were taken by surprise particularly by the gaetz and gabbard list. they were not on the short list, and they wonder what happens next. seems like a dare to republicans. much more of "morning joe: weekend" after the break. week end" after the break. a bend with a bump in your erection might be painful, embarassing, difficult to talk about, and could be peyronie's disease or pd,

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welcome back to "morning joe: weekend." let's pick up with the conversation we were having just before the break. >> tom nichols, i wanted to circle back to the tulsi gabbard selection with you. one thing i heard yesterday, a concern from those who are currently and formerly in the intelligence committee, it will have a chilling effect on our allies. because gabbard is viewed with such suspicion, there will be

some of our european and asian partners who might not want to cooperate with us, who frankly may have had skepticism of trump himself who famously blabbed about the intelligence in the oval office. what is your concern? >> my concern about all three of these, gabbard, off the charts level of concern. of course it's going to affect our allies. they would be irresponsible in their duties to their countries if they were not concerned about her because when you're thinking of dealing with the top american intelligence official, you take your pick. you wouldn't want to work with her because she's not qualified for her job or because she is overly sympathetic to the president of russia and the president of syria, who, you know, she thinks -- seems to

think is not our ally and needs to be understood after he gassed his own people. i think there's also within the intelligence community within the united states, you will see information slow down, simply because there are going to be offices and agencies who we will have intelligence professionals saying what do i send up the chain? where does this piece of information go? do we keep it in house at the cia or fbi or national security? it's a mess. >> tom, can i can you, tom, let's say perhaps she is not -- she doesn't get confirmed by the senate. who would be some other strong candidates for this position that might fit more in to donald trump's world view?

so if not gabbard, and we certainly heard from republicans and democrats alike, not her, but who would be two or three good names for this position if for some reason she got voted down? >> joe, i'm not going to make the life of a future nominee difficult by naming them and saying that is somebody they think would be okay. >> how about describing -- describing the type of person that republicans and democrats would support. what would the qualities be? >> the qualities would be first of all, some experience with intelligence. this can't be amateur hour. this isn't the apprentice. this isn't celebrity director of national intelligence week on the staffing apprentice to see if, you know, the hawaii national guard lieutenant colonel can make it to the top of the intelligence seat. this is ridiculous.

this is reality show approach. you want somebody with background in national intelligence. somebody, perhaps, if it's a legislature, someone who sat on the committees. someone from the intelligence community and has managed a large organization. that's another thing we keep forgetting about these. one of the problems with the gabbard and hegseth nominations, they run big organizations. you look for that background. gabbard has none of them. >> rev, i mean, look, again, no matter how his first few appointments went, that might have led people to think in certain ways, these nominations are in line with exactly what donald trump was repeatedly communicating to the country. there's, you know, if people are shocked then in some ways they haven't heard what he was

saying or they didn't believe it or think he meant it. now we know he does, and rev, i'm wondering if you can speak to the impact of the nominations, and more about how it could impact the american people and their day-to-day lives, and why it matters not to the elites in washington concerned about big, big issues, but to the people in america, perhaps, tuning in for the first time and looking at the president they voted for. >> i think that's what is critical here. when you look at the fact that american people are dealing with day-to-day challenges in how they afford their life. we talk a lot about how the price of milk has gone up. how they deal with their travel in terms of our infrastructure, and how they deal with crime. all of this now is a side show to playing to some cheap seats

on the super right wing, by nominating people that does not have the capacity to address any of that. to have someone over the justice department that is more concerned with vengeance and chasing conspiracies than really dealing with how do we get rid of criminal elements in people tracking guns and then causing real, real problems for people to live under threat is in many ways a real, real tragedy. i think that's what we are looking at. to have our intelligence compromised at a time we have wars, why would we be playing this risky game? who are we playing to if you're the president?

i thought about how mrs. coretta scott king told me once, al, you can't be big and small at the same time. you are playing the small crowd to say rhetoric to fire them up. the president doing what is right for the average ma and pa in their house today trying to figure out how they are going to get through the week. >> david, when you look at the totality of the foreign policy picks, some isolation more than others. rubio probably more classically in the vain of leadership around the world, but the others, hegseth, gabbard, more isolationists. how does the balance of power play out when it comes to the issue of america's biggest concern, that is china. does this seem to suggest to you american consumers really

should be looking at tough tariffs on china could potentially raise prices for them, or do you see it being more complicated than that? >> i think tariffs is an excellent example. you need officials who will give you frank advice. will tariffs cause china to back down? donald trump said he has not given the promise to defend chai taiwan from china. xi jinping said he plans to do that in trump's second term. tariffs, prices go up. intelligence, it's critical. intelligence is getting information, what is she thinking, and also making estimates and predictions. iraq, wmd, the intelligence community got it wrong. the united states invaded

thinking there were weapons of mass destruction. thousands of americans died, gas prices went up. a system was set up after the vietnam war where intelligence lied and 50,000 americans died in vietnam. tulsi gabbard saying the war was caused by a secret chemical weapon was false, that's why it's important to have fact- based people. i will not name people in congress, but former republican heads of intelligence committees do this, mike walz is seen as a responsible person. there's people who support donald trump that could do the jobs effectively. our next guests are leading the initiative to safe guard

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so two governors in blue states are joining forces in the wake of donald trump's reelection to quote, protect the state-level institutes of democracy. the initiative launching today called governors safe guarding democracy, aims to provide a play book for governors across the country seeking to push back against the upcoming administration. gsd says a goal is supporting by tools, knowledge, and resources to protect and strength democratic institutions. gsd seeks to ensure that american democracy remains vibrant, resilience, and responsive to the needs of its people.

joining us now the cochairs, governor pritzker of illinois, and governor polis of colorado. also the national chair of the national governors association. what type of things will gsd be preparing for? >> starting with the idea, there's a number of things brought up during the campaign, and now post his election that president trump's administration intends to go after. an example of that, you have heard talk about bringing prayer back in to public schools as they say. the reality is that there's a constitutional bar against that. separation of church and state. the question is what will they do to try to enforce that? how on a state level can we uphold the u.s. constitution while the administration may be coming after, you know, this vitally important freedom that people have from having to be forced to, you know, into some

sort of organized prayer in public schools? we have a lot of issues like that. privacy issues around tracking people who may be seeking to exercise their abortion rights, and we want to make sure that apps can't track them or at least those companies can't provide that information to any other states or to the federal government. >> so governor polis, isn't the issue of prayer in school, isn't that a court issue that will end up at the u.s. supreme court? >> look, i think what we want to lean in to here, making sure states are equipped to protect our constitution and democracy. that means the independence of the courts itself and the rule of law, election integrity. governors can work together in this administration or any administration. there's always issues we agree

and disagree on. playing by the rule book that plays for our country and remains loyal to our constitution. >> governor pritzker, reporting earlier this show about trump's efforts ramping up for their impending mass deportation program, the construction of new facility outside of major cities, potentially chicago one of them in your home state. how do you see the role of blue state governors in terms of the relationship with the federal government if they do carry out the mass deportation plans, and if they rely on the state and local officials and law enforcement to do so? >> let me start by saying we want to make sure if there's undocumented immigrants committing violent crime, we want them off the streets. we want help from the federal government if we need it, but we also want to make sure there isn't a violation of people's rights with, you know, raids, for example, that are done in

coordination with local law enforcement on people who are frankly holding down jobs and have been in the country for many, many years. we think that's improper, and in illinois, that's not something that we would condone. there's been some talk about using other states' national guards, the red states to come in to a blue state and force the new stephen miller inspired rules. i want to tee off something jared said, importantly, we each have ideas, some of which we have acted upon over the last six years, and some of which are still needing to be acted upon. each state has a different situation in which they may want to act upon that. for example, there's states where you have a party in control of the governorship, but not in control of the legislature.

that governor may only be able to put in place executive orders. another state like mine where we have democratic control of the house and the senate and the governorship, we may be able to do much more and will be. so i think the idea here is to create a catalog, to create dialogue amongst the governors about what is possible, and if you want to pursue something in your state, different in each state, that's available to you. this organization will support you in doing that. >> governor polis, i just sort of question 30,000 feet, looking down on this. how do you balance being the loyal opposition and doing what the loyal opposition has always done in american politics, and also recognizing the results of the last election and understanding that you two represent two of the only states between the coasts where republicans didn't sweep the

victory by pretty convincing margins? >> well, look, president-elect trump upon the election. we are going to work with him and his administration however we can for the state. whether the u.s. forest service, managing public lands, or working to make sure priorities are met in funding transit. we look forward to that relationship. at the same time, it's important we double down on defending our democratic institutions, making sure elections in the future, the decisions of the courts, the rule of law continue across the administrations, republican and democratic. we will always have agreements and disagreements in the moment, but i think it's also important to take a step back and say let's make sure the america we cherish and love is as strong as ever on our 250th birthday in two years. >> democratic governors -- go ahead, governor pritzker. >> i just wanted to add, joe mentioned loyal opposition. we are loyal. we are loyal to the

constitution and the people of our states, and this isn't about, you know, creating a massive divide. in deed, it's just about responding to concerns that governors will have about dealing with what seems to be an onslot from the new administration. >> appreciate that. democratic governors jb pritzker and jared polis, thank you for being on. if you're sure you know how the next four years will play out, one expert joins us next to explain. next to explain. pay for what you nd ♪ libberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ chase really knows how to put the hart in your local community. see what i did there?

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so adam grant wrote a book called hidden potential, and what he talks about in it is getting out of your comfort zone, failing purposefully, getting better through failures, and the greatest example i'm going to talk to him about when we get him on a minute. polyglots who could speak so many languages, and he assumed they were brilliant. he went to talk to them and realized the only thing separating them from the rest of us, they purposefully went

out of their way to make mistakes. there was one guy who probably picked up 20 different languages, and his rule was when he went to a new country, he had to make 200 mistakes a day. 200 mistakes a day that he learned from, and within a week or two, he was picking up the language. it's a brilliant way, especially for your children who may be concerned about failing or getting outside of their comfort zone or you or me or any of us who are afraid to get out of our comfort zone, when you have that sort of mindset, it's amazing how you unlock your hidden potential, and that's what adam talks about in the book. the aforementioned adam grant with a guest essay in the new york times, offering this advice to americans. >> here's the advice, pretty simple. if you're sure how the next four years are going to play out, i promise you're wrong. adam is joining us now. he's an organizational

psychologist at the wharton school of the university of pennsylvania. >> adam, did i get that story right? are you a different adam grant? >> you got it right, joe, but i don't think you can get by with 200 mistakes a day on air. >> somehow i do, and we keep on keeping on. >> we challenge you. >> so this seems like great advice in your essay today, and it sort of reminds me of the dst suggestion, don't suffer twice. most of the time, what you're suffering about doesn't come to fruition, don't suffer twice. that appears to be what you're saying here? >> yeah, i think that's well put. i think we are constantly overly confident about our ability to predict future events. we fail to learn the lesson over and over again that we are wrong. there's so many examples of

this. i think back to the treaty of versailles in 1919 where the allied powers celebrated peace and didn't realize the national humility was sewing the seeds of world war ii. i wonder how many times we have to go through experiences like that before we realize just because we think the outcome is good today doesn't mean it will lead to what we want tomorrow and vice versa. >> professor grant, it's great to see you. i have my desk calendar ready for 2025, something to think about, and we are happy to see your face in a moment like this. let's talk about the other advice you give and observations in the column, pain and sorrow are never permanent. they help us make sense and find meaning and fuel change. saying it's okay to be upset, shocked, frustrated this week, probably if you're a democrat in some kind of despair, but the question is what do you do

with that going forward? >> yeah, willie, i think the whole point of unpleasant emotions, they are supposed to teach us lessons. the same way you touch a hot stove, and it hurts, and you pay attention and make changes. a lot of people are feeling what we call election dejection. the point is to prompt analysis. we are seeing that right now of what went wrong for democrat the. many people are feeling morally outraged. the purpose is to get you to fight against the status quo to drive change. many people are worried about what is going to come next. in psychology, worrying is defied as attempted problem solving, which i think the world needs a lot of right now. >> willie took what i was going to ask you. pain and sorrow are never permanent you write. i want to ask you about pain and sorrow being never permanent. when you walk around the upper west side in new york city, you are confronted by people,

literally who will stop you and start crying about what happened a week ago on election day. their problem would seem to me is that their pain and their sorrow, they are going to be constantly reminded of it on television each and every day as the president-elect of the united states proceeds to the next four years. what do you do about the permanence of that particular pain? i don't think it's easy, but it's worth remembering things can always be worse. let's go back to 2020. how many democrats cheered when joe biden won the election? i think with the benefit of hindsight, many democrats feel we would have been better off if trump won in 2020 now knowing he won in 2024. there would have been no lie about election fraud. there would have been no january 6th insurrection. we would have more moderates and qualified people

surrounding him. i don't want to say imagining how things can be worse is uplifting or energizing for most people, but it does make us grateful for what we have. >> yeah, and maybe i shouldn't say that or this, but also, don't sit in front of the tv or on your phone all day. >> doom scrolling. >> doom scrolling. >> i'm a doom scroller. >> walk outside, look up at the sun. >> i'm going to take that. good takeaway here. the new piece is online for the new york times, organizational psychologist at the wharton school at the university of pennsylvania, adam grant, once again, thank you very much. thanks for coming on the show this morning. up next, how might the election results impact the housing market? we will ask our next guests drew and jonathan scott, better known as the property brothers, joining us next on "morning joe: weekend." next on " mornin joe: weekend."

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it's really frustrating. >> oh this is not good. >> what? >> i'm stressed. >> you're not alone. >> this all has to be ripped out. >> i feel like throwing up. >> and rebuilding. >> i don't want to finish a beautiful house, and then they aren't happen. >> no pressure. >> my hope is they will see this house as everything they dreamed of. >> i love that house. before it was a love hate. >> drew and jonathan scott joining us now live in the studio. guys, we are always happy when you're here. good to see you. >> who needs the kitchen remodeled? >> i will talk offline. don't want to spill into public. i need a few things. first, picking up on the conversation about the housing market, do things change at all with a new trump administration based on what you have seen? for a lot of people, it's a crisis. >> it will be tough with the tariffs affecting the cost of

certain materials and also deportation, that can affect costs as well. it's great to have more jobs here, but that can cost more money the way andrew was talking about. >> labor costs are possibly one of the biggest single line items for construction. an interesting cross roads. we see the materials that can be made faster, really bringing down onsite time lines, but supply chain shortages affected us post covid, and that could happen again if there's a tariff issue. there's a huge housing crisis. we need to find better ways to build houses and get another 4 million houses online. we are not at a healthy inventory. >> removing the red tape is a good thing. an easier process to get into the builds. california, we have a project for our parents, and we had to sit for nine months and wait until the permitting process was improved, and one project

was two years. we had to wait to flip the switch for solar panels. >> have you ever made your mother wait nine months? >> good one with that. >> it's expensive, too, by the way. the permits cost money, the architects cost money and on and on and on. i'm curious of the impacts of inflation, not just the last couple of years, but precovid to today, lumber, all supplies you would need, how much has that impacted what we have seen in housing? >> the one thing they think is frustrating, sometimes the industries are looking for any excuse to jack the prices up. you look from closing the canal to the supply chain shortages, it's an opportunity to jack it up, affecting the consumer in a negative way. a lot of that has leveled out since the peak when wood, concrete, and everything was out of control. it stayed higher. you know, we are kind of getting used to the norms when it comes to the new pricing for anything, especially in big

metropolitan centers. the cost of construction is incredible. i would love to see the new technologies making it eco- friendly to build and bring the costs down. >> we are also working state or regional, in l.a., $850,000 to build a one-bedroom apartment to try to get someone off the street? that's ridiculous. for us to build the panel systems to offset the cost for the city and working with people building multifamily, those are two ways we can help. >> are you seeing changes because of climate change? is that certain locations becoming trickier? more expensive? how do you approach? >> that's one of the biggest contention points with new home technologies. we already know there's better ways, better technologies than what we are doing right now. decarbonizing the home, electrifying everything is the future of the home. some people don't want to believe that. they are slowing down the process. the technology is already here. we can build better houses that

are healthier, and you don't have benzing out of the home from the gas range for the kids. we know the technology exists. we need people to allow us to do it in mass. >> if you're not focusing on climate and one of the healthiest options for families, more people listen. it's important to think of it that way. what is important for you and the family in the home? the same changes can happen in a more positive way. >> besides having many television shows and a number of things, you're also venture capitalists, can you talk to us about that? >> the fund is the healthy home innovation home. anything that touches the home, whether it's how you transact to buy, renovate, or sell. the built environment or the health of the home, air quality, anything that touches the home is what we are looking to invest in. our goal is to utilize our brand, a trusted name to help the companies scale up to bring down the price point quicker.

all of the tech should be accessible for everyone, not just the rich. >> that's the problem. when the tech comes out, so much incredible stuff, not just the climate and the health of the home, but stuff that is cool as well, and you can brag you have, there's so much cool stuff, we want to make sure the companies that have the ideas get a platform and we can use our brand to push that. >> you are so deep in this world, what is the exciting next thing in 5, 10, 20 years we will all have in our homes that may be expensive out of reach thing for most people now. what are you looking at as exciting? >> the sexy stuff, i just saw one technology called solid light, full 3d television without the need for glasses. you can look at the wall, and everything is coming out of the tv, but you don't need anything. there's technology like that that is amazing. on a more fundamental side, there's no longer a reason for you to have catastrophic flood loss and things like that. there's technologies, a.i. to monitor your home and make

sure if there's a leak, it catches it before it causes a massive flood. >> there's no reason to fold your own laundry anymore. there's machines that can do that for you. we have a second hour of "morning joe: weekend" on this sunday morning coming up right after the break. the break. farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. ♪far-xi-ga♪ ♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga.

♪♪ welcome back to a second hour of "morning joe" weekend on this sunday morning. we're beginning to get a glimpse

inside what the next trump presidency could look like. let's get back to some of the top stories from the week. susan glasser, your latest piece in the new yorker has this headline. the most extreme cabinet ever, and you write in part this. "perhaps it was no surprise that trump, with his demands for ostentatious demands for loyalty and his penchant for obsessive television watching, has quickly assembleds the makings of a second-term cabinet that might be better suited for a republican reality show casting call. trump's cabinet rollout shows pretty definitively his plan for the new administration. he does not just want to explode the norms of the capitol when he returns to it, he wants to stomp on them and anyone who might be tempted to stick to the old rules that trump loves to flout." you go on to write, "the tawdry theatrics involved in the rollout of trump's picks for key

national security posts should not, however, obscure an underlying substance that is no less striking for having been utterly predictable. this time, the former president, who promised revenge and retribution, who openly admired vladimir putin's genius invasion of ukraine and whose advisers dream of dismantling the deep state, looks like he really wants to follow through on his pledges of disruption." so, susan, certainly an insightful piece, and it seems like he's assembling a team to do just that. and this time, because he's far now more familiar with the levers of power in government, it seems like he has a much greater chance of succeeding than he did the first time around. >> yeah, i think that's what's really striking here. first of all, he did tell us all this in advance. we were talking about rfk jr. he literally said before the election that he wanted him to go wild on america's health bureaucracy. so, again, the shock is that on

some level so many people are shocked. i do think, jonathan, you and i have experienced this before, the distraction of the carnival, the theatrics, donald trump is a serial picker of fights. he's probably relishing all the attention to the controversies he's already generated in just one week, but i think that can be a distraction from what the underlying goals are here. steve bannon was practically gleeful in talking about the gaetz pick the other day. he said something really important. he's going to be -- donald trump has picked a blowtorch for the justice department. and you can say that almost all of these picks in their own ways are potential blowtorches for the departments they have been chosen to lead. i think to the extent there's an ideology, that's the ideology, an ideology of burn it down, blow it up, you know, re-invent it, and that plus personal loyalty to trump himself, a big

lesson he took away from his first term in office. >> it's heilemann here, simone. i ask you to give a sense for us, if you can, of what the minority party -- what the loyal opposition is thinking collectively, like if you could draw a thought bubble around the democratic party there is a lot of self-scrutiny and self-assessment, some finger pointing. some blame casting going on on the democratic side so rocked by what happened last tuesday. you were seeing that whole debate play out. it's also the case that everybody understands they're going to see a preview of what it's going to look like, what the lines of combat are going to look like after january 20th. is anybody in the party right now starting to think about what should the strategy be, where can we resist? where can we make -- i'll take away the word resist. where can we fight back, make it harder for the unitarian republican government to accomplish what seems to be pretty radical ends? >> well, look, heilemann, if you

look at what the democratic leader, hakeem jeffries has said, and he has been quite consistent, right? he said democrats will work with their republican counterparts in the house where they can and will continue to try to deliver for the american people. democrats have been a minority in the house the entire time, yet in this particular congress and the next, given the margins, the republicans in the house are going to need democrats in the house to help further their agenda. when it comes to the united states senate, though, i do think that democrats within the senate led at this point by senator schumer, they have not articulated a strategy, if you will. because i don't think democrats want to be in the posture of we are against, we are against, we are against. people send their members of congress to congress to get things done. however, these are not normal times, you know. so when we're talking about senate confirmations potentially or even recess appointments, we

have yet to see writ large the democratic congress articulate their stance on that. i know what people think privately, what senator durbin has said. senator durbin is calling for the report as the head of the senate judiciary committee, of their own lyle fifedoms. he has the ranking and the right to raise that and ask for that as the ranking member, as the democrat on that committee. what is the democrats posture at-large in the senate? it is not enough, you know -- i was very disturbed, actually, by folks like senator fedderman who said that matt gaetz was high-level trolling, if you will, and donald trump trying to own the libs is not serious. as one of my followers on twitter said, i'm going to hold america's hand and say there's no 3d -- this is the strategy. this is his plan. democrats have to get serious, particularly in the senate where the spotlight will be on them in

the next coming days and weeks throughout the rest of president biden's term and at the start of the new congress come january. >> simone says she wants to hear from the democratic senators. well, let's ask one. chris coons of delaware joins us right now. he is, of course, a member of the foreign relations and judiciary committees. thank you so much for being with us this morning. john thune says that using recess appointments to get trump's cabinet nominees confirmed is an option. we're going to play for you what he said on fox news yesterday. >> do you then punt to a recess and try to recess the senate for ten days and get those appointments in? >> well, it's an option but obviously it takes -- you have to have all republicans' vote to recess as well. the same republicans that you mentioned that might have a problem voting for somebody under regular order probably will also have a problem voting to put the senate into recess. you have to have concurrence from the house.

there's a process. all of of this is a process. but i don't think any of those things are necessarily off the table. >> so senator koonce, you just heard it there. majority leader thune says it's not off the table. let's get your reaction to this possibility and your republican colleagues you speak to, how likely is this? >> well, jonathan, as you've been discussing this morning, a number of president-elect trump's picks are alarming. folks who are demonstrably unqualified to lead the critical agencies they've been nominated to lead. as you mentioned in the introduction, i serve on both the foreign relations committee and the judiciary committee. and to answer simone's question about what's the posture going to be, speaking for myself at least, i'm going to work with president trump on his nominees when there are folks who could credibly lead an agency and i will work to block, stop or slow those who are just demonstrably

unqualified either by their integrity, their experience or their policy views to lead an agency. the u.s. department of justice is a massive agency with 115,000 employees, a $60 billion budget, and it's not a joke -- this isn't reality tv. this is reality. the u.s. department of justice investigates and prosecutes federal crimes all over the united states and is critical to our national security, to protecting the american people, to enforcing antitrust rules, lots and lots of things that matter to the american people. and our state department, which senator marco rubio has been nominated to lead, is also a critical global force for good that helps project the american people's interests, values and power around the world. senator rubio is someone i served with for 14 years. he served on the intelligence committee, the foreign relations committee. we have policy differences, of course, but he strikes me as

someone who is much more in line with traditional nominees with the experience, the integrity, the vision to be capable of leading the state department. so my hope is that senator thune recognizes as the newly elected leader coming into this next congress that he will have strong pushback in his own caucus if they recess the senate and hand president trump the chance to appoint literally one he feels like for up to two years. that would be setting aside a critical constitutional role of the senate, the role of advise and consent. >> senator, it's simone. how are you? >> hi, simone. >> i think you have been quite clear on what your posture is, and a couple other democratic senators have as well. but my question is, what about the caucus? has the caucus come together and had a meeting about what the posture is going to be? are we going to see a press conference, if you will, from senate dems and leadership?

and then, when it comes to what happens if the senators, the republican senators, do decide to give for the president-elect what he would like in terms of recess appointments? what happens if they go that route and then you all just don't come back and confirm the rest of the votes and president trump decides on a bunch of acting individuals? what would democrats be prepared to do or say? >> i can't speak for the whole caucus, but i will tell you that we have other tools. the constitution does give the president the power to make recess appointments that goes back to a time when the senate was only in session a few months a year and there were long periods, and so the framers decided it was important for the president to be able to keep the government running. it was a government that was dramatically smaller, and it was assumed that the president wouldn't abuse that power. so, look, i'm not going to get ahead of our majority leader, chuck schumer.

we met several times this week as a caucus to process the lessons of the election and to debate and discuss our path forward. i will tell you that i think one of the main messages of this election was that millions of americans want a stronger economy. they want better opportunity and they want lower prices. and i hope we will spend some time focusing on how trump's plans to try and deport millions of people and to slap huge tariffs on all imported goods, which will then raise costs for consumers, will lead to a weaker economy, to higher inflation and lower growth. we knew this during the campaign. i talked about it a lot in the campaign, yet the average american who was listening to both sides said, we trust trump with the economy. now they're going to get to see the difference in the direction he's going to take us and hopefully there will still be time and room to also debate the dramatic consequences of putting people like rfk jr. in charge of

vaccinations and oride in the water. and matt gaetz, someone who couldn't pass a background check, in charge of law enforcement in our country. >> it's susan glasser. how are you this morning? >> i'm okay. how are you? >> lots to discuss. you mentioned the meetings that you had in the caucus to talk about what just happened in the election. i talked with one of your colleagues who said that it was a really painful conversation. there seemed to be a lot of agreement that immigration really was an issue that hurt some of your vulnerable senators and in particular the biden administration's sort of taking a long time to come around to the idea there was actually a crisis that needed to be addressed. i'm curious, what was your takeaway from some of the after action reports from your colleagues like sherrod brown who did lose his re-election in ohio? >> well sherrod, like john tester, like many of our

candidates for the senate, ran ahead of our presidential candidate by many points. if vice president harris had only lost ohio by four to six points, sherrod would be returning to the senate. so one of the things that we discussed was how some of our incumbents like sherrod brown, who is well known to the people of ohio, who is deeply rooted for fighting for the dignity in work in unions and fought for jobs all over his state actually performed relatively well. there was broad agreement that our candidates and our campaigns were well funded, well run, and we had a huge number of volunteers. what we were debating and discussing was, were our policies wrong, or did we fail to connect with middle american voters? i don't think, and most of our caucus doesn't think, that the accomplishments of the biden/harris administration investing in manufacturing, in infrastructure, in mental health, in supporting our veterans, in making progress in

gun safety. we didn't have wrong policies in terms of the core accomplishments of the administration, but there were some key issues that were not addressed quickly enough or well enough. one of them was housing and another was border security. we'll have much more of "morning joe weekend" right after the break. so, what are you thinking? i'm thinking... (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning.

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just follow the road. it's gonna lead you right... oh. to me. [ indistinct chatter ] well this has been fun. woo! ♪♪ conservative columnist jonah goldberg has a piece for the "los angeles times" saying victorious republicans are once again falling for the mandate trap. and jonah writes in part, whatever trump believes his mandate is, at least some of the people who voted for him will have different ideas, save for dealing with inflation and righting the economy. there's very little he can do that won't result in some people saying this isn't what i voted for. once again a victorious party is sticking its head in the mandate

trap. in the 21st century, president's win elections because their opponents were unpopular, yurval levin writes. and then imagine the party hasn't endorsed their party activis activists' agenda, they make themselves unpopular. this is why the incumbent party lost for the third time in a row, a feat not seen since the 19th century, hence the irony of the mandate trap. in theory, trump could solidify his build on his winning coalition, but that would require disappointing the people insisting he has a mandate to do whatever he wants, which is why it's unlikely to happen. >> the thing is, mike barnicle, donald trump obviously, this is a victory, as we've said, that belongs to donald trump. if you look in the swing states that donald trump won, democrats

won the senate in nevada. democrats won the senate in arizona which, of course, they had a real progressive win there. they won the senate in wisconsin. they won the senate in michigan. it looks like they've lost in pennsylvania but the state and other people are not call the race yet because the republican is 3,000 ahead of the democrats and by last count i saw the state said there were 100,000 provisional ballots, overseas ballots, but that will be close. we expect dave mccormack will win that officially, probably over the next several days. but still -- and then go to north carolina, you have a democrat who won by double digits in north carolina, so republicans saying we won this

massive mandate in a 50/49 divided country will make the same mistake bill clinton made in '92 when he overreached and helped elect people like me in '94 and republicans got in control for the first time in 40 years. joe biden won a very close race in 2020 and people started to say you need to be like fdr. well, he didn't have the fdr mandate and many thought he overreached as well. there is always, as jonah says, this back and forth and back and forth. and we will see whether donald trump will try to build on those successes or overreach like just about every other president has done this century. >> all the races you mentioned were statewide, various senators, governors and things like that. the some of the house vote separates that office from everything else. i do think, joe, what happens people vote for the presidency

either up or down, either for him or against him. or for him or against her, in this case. and a lot of people turned their backs to the democratic party because of what they were hearing from democrats. that's another thing i would submit. and they didn't go for what they were hearing and how they were living in inflation. of all the things that impacted the election, inflation still remains and was the critical factor because what the biden administration was doing nearly every day, god bless them, coming on television and telling people, voters, that we had the strongest economy in the world. that is actually the truth. we have the strongest economy in the world, but it's not the economy, the actual lived economy people endure each and every day, people pulling into gas stations in brand-new ford f-150 trucks or old cars and getting half a tank of gas because they were running out of

money looking at the numbers. things like that, grocery prices. that's what did it. not ideology. money. >> gas and groceries, mike barnicle has been saying that for a long time. coming up, we'll speak with democratic congressman and member of the armed services committee, pat ryan, who also served two combat tours in iraq, with his reaction to donald trump nominating fox news host pete hegseth for defense secretary. rough, or tired? with miebo, eyes can feel ♪ miebo ohh yeah ♪ miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye: too much tear evaporation. for relief that's ♪ miebo ohh yeah ♪ remove contact lenses before using miebo. wait at least 30 minutes before putting them back in. eye redness and blurred vision may occur. what does treating dry eye differently feel like? ♪ miebo ohh yeah ♪

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♪♪ among the silver lineings for democrats was a performance of congressional house democrats. democrats lost five competitive house races in new york during the 2022 mid-terms. three were flipped back in this election and a fourth taken back in a special election this year. incumbent congressman pat ryan held on to his seat winning his third election in as many years

and doing so convincingly, 13 points was the margin. ryan was first elected to the 18th congressional district in a 2022 special election. and congressman ryan joins us now. congressman, good morning. it's great to see you. i feel we have you on once a year and congratulate you on winning an election. congratulations again. just to remind our viewers about your districts, obviously seen as a swing district, you won by 13 points. what was the message that you delivered to those voters who were maybe on the fence between donald trump and joe biden and maybe were considering walking away a bit from the democratic party. how did you hold on to so many of them. >> i'm really proud of our whole team and our whole community in a really tough moment nationally obviously and both backwards looking and to come. we centered an optimistic, positive and patriotic path and vision.

i obsessively talked about affordability and i obsessively talked about freedom and linked them together, talking about economic freedom and really tried to give a place for people to come to, to come vote for rather than just running against a lot of things. and rather than getting in these kind of back-and-forth cultural war, finger pointing, divisive, really tried to focus on where do we share common ground and, to me, one of the things that really stands out here, at the end of the day, if you're talking moderate or progressive, if you're talking liberal or conservative, you are missing the whole point of where real people are. folks want to know that a representative will fight for them and against all the forces that are hurting them and harming them and putting this economic pressure and affordability crisis, and we really center that every day in our campaign. i think that was a big part of why we had a decisive district. >> your district, new york 18,

is one of the tightest and most contested every two years of anywhere in the country. you outran president harris last week by 11 points. you won by 13 points and she won narrowly in your district. what would be your message? and i know it's hard to apply it to every democrat, because every one is different, it may be more heavily progressive, but if you were advising the leadership of the democratic party, which is waking up a week later still picking up the pieces wondering what exactly happened and how them get back in the game, what would be your advice? >> it's pretty simple. get real and listen. stop talking to and at people and take the time to listen. i mean, minus the substance, it's about style. we worked so hard to show up in every corner of my district. i have this mobile constituent services van, we went to all 82

of our towns across a huge geographic area over and over and over and especially the ones that didn't vote for me and really listened to people. and when you do that it's so clear that 80, 90% of people are facing economic pressure. we have to hear that, sit with that, and then show we're going to fight for them and show who we're going to fight against. i called out elites in power whether that's big corporate power, whether that was our local monopolistic that ripped people off or elites in both parties that are increasingly out of touch. i think it's get real. >> congressman, good morning. you are a veteran. you also sit on the med services committee. we want to get your reaction to donald trump's nomination of pete hegseth to run the pentagon. he most recently, of course, a fox news host.

do you believe he is qualified to lead the department of defense? >> this is an incredibly serious time in the world, an incredibly serious cabinet position, and i don't think hegseth is a serious person and a serious pick, and, sadly, it's not surprising coming from trump who dodged the draft five times, insulted gold far families, trampled on the sacred ground of arlington national cemetery, and i'm not surprised that he picked a fox news host rather than someone who is going to understand the seriousness of the moment. i'm very concerned about what this means, because we've even seen today reporting from "the wall street journal" talking about executive orders that are essentially military purges when our military has always been a political, nonpartisan patriots not a political military.

that's a very dangerous road that we could head down. on the armed services i'm going to be incredibly focused making sure we don't go down that road. up next, new reporting on the relationship between donald trump and elon musk. stay with us for that. eight months pregnant, that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card from chase for business.

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♪♪ as we look at this transition, a couple other things are striking. first of all, it's very different than eight years ago.

there is no parade of characters, no auditions walking through trump tower then or mar-a-lago now, at least not yet. trump is acting with real speed, getting these names out there much quicker than he did last time around. he's prioritizing people he knows. these are either veterans of the first administration or two states in particular, they're from new york or they're from florida. these, of course, his two home states, that's where he's turning to to fill out his roster at least for now. and, jim, one name above all of it, elon musk, spolted at mar-a-lago since election day, golfing with trump and hanging out for dinner. it's not clear whether or not he'll get a formal title or not, but what is the sense as to you're hearing as to what role he could play and will they be able to co-exist? donald trump likes to be the

only star in the sky. elon musk, well, he's used to that role as well. how do we see this in the months ahead? >> i think it's one of the most interesting and important stories that's been unfolding over the last month is this fusion between musk and donald trump. mike allen and i write about it in today's "behind the curtain" column. musk has been at mar-a-lago almost from election day to now. he's intimately involved in picking the cabinet. he's one of the few people sitting in this makeshift situation room they built in mar-a-lago where trump is looking at tv screens, to look at the different portfolios of candidates for these jobs. he sits in on calls with world leaders. he's going to create some group that sits outside of government that advises on how to try to save a trillion or $2 trillion. he claims, i think it will be harder said than do, but that's part of his portfolio. we've not seen an alliance like this when you combine politics with information. i really believe politics flows

downstream from information. and now you have more than hatch of the country getting its information from nontraditional sources, and elon musk sits at the center of that. you take government and you take information and you have a very, very, very powerful alliance. i think it's the most important story. it probably sits with what david ignatius talks about, this idea, this new right, and at the same time putting together a team that is hellbent on confronting china, and for good reason, the one nation that has the manpower, the money to be an existential hreat to the united states, the only one that could actually threaten the u.s. and so those early signs point to the importance of china and musk in the early days. >> we'll get to the david ignatius column in one minute. i want to talk to him also about china. i talk about the numbers and how strong america's economy is all

the time. i will say, though, our only competition right now is china. >> right. >> even though we've gone far past them in the past four years, we talk about russia. they have a $1.4 trillion, maybe $1.7 trillion gdp, china is $17 trillion. the u.s. has 26, 27. the eu has 26, 27. put that together, we overpower china. but they are, as jim said, the one country that poses a real threat to the united states. >> especially where our relationships with allies break down. up next, how tech created a recipe for loneliness. the author of a new piece on that troubling connection between social media and mental health.

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which may help preserve vision longer. ♪ ( i. zer. vay.) ♪ ♪ (gets ga goin' slower.) ♪ so shift gears and get going. don't delay. ask your doctor about izervay. let me set the record straight. don't delay. are people born wicked? or do they have wickedness thrust upon them? oh! -ah! [ laughter ] no need to respond. that was rhetorical. hm, hmm. i even made a new friend. i have a friend. and the absurd thing is she's actually an operating system, charles left her behind. but she's -- she's totally

amazing. you know, she's so smart. she doesn't just see things in black or white. this whole gray area and she's helping me explore it and we just bonded really quickly. i'm weird. that's weird that i'm bonding os. >> i don't think so. actually the woman that i've been seeing, samantha, i didn't tell you but she is an os. >> you're dating an os? what is that like? >> it's great actually. yeah. i feel really close to her. like when i talk to her, i feel she's really with me. >> that was a clip from the 2013 movie "her" in which a divorced writer cures his loneliness by developing a romantic relationship with a virtual assistant with artificial intelligence. earlier this year the u.s. surgeon general declared loneliness an epidemic, one

fueled in part by the rise of and the reliance on technology in everyday american life. joining us now technology writer for "the new york times," brian chen. his latest piece entitled "how tech create add recipe for loneliness." we already know from the surgeon general there is an epidemic. i think we all see it in our families and communities, and the question is, if the tech companies won't work on this, won't put in proper, perhaps, regulations on themselves in terms of who can use tech at what time in their lives, things like that, how does this problem get solved? and if you could state exactly how tech creates loneliness. >> yeah, thanks for asking. i think the specific aspect of social media that the researchers are pointing at is

this issue of social comparisons, and that's when we compare ourselves to other people in unfavorable ways. so on social media that can manifest in many different ways like, say, you could be comparing your body to somebody else's body in saying oh, this person is prettier than i am, or you could say your parents and your newborn is developing more slowly than another person's newborn, or, say, another friend has more likes and reshares than you do and you might conclude that this person is more popular than i am. maybe i'm not very likeable. the net result is that when people seem ahead of you, when i feel behind, you start to feel quite lonely, you start to feel isolated and alone behind your peers. and social media academics have been looking into this issue for years and pointing out, how facebook and others can do a better job at enabling this sort of behavior where people feel

like they're behind and making comparisons and how do you mitigate those results and meta has given the option to hide shares and likes but that hasn't been very effective. >> isn't it also another piece of this simpler one, you make the argument it's about texting versus a phone call. we all text all the time. it's an easy way to check in with someone real quick. there are a lot of good things about that. at the same time it doesn't replace a phone call, that back and forth, and even a phone call, of course, doesn't republic place that face-to-face personal interaction. talk to us how technologies change it even in this simple way. >> text messaging is by far the most used communication method, i think, is obvious to a lot of people by now and, you know, even for work it's very common to use slack and other messaging apps to communicate.

i think what happens when we rely on text messaging we default to that as our way of connecting with other people. and a lot of teenagers in these studies done by harvard said that they felt like they were less lonely when they are more connected in a more authentic way, able to form an authentic bomb and sense the same vibes and that kind of thing, and it's very difficult to j imagine, isn't it, you can sense vibes through a text message. you would sense that from a face-to-face interaction or a voice interaction. you can sense authenticity. that's missing in a lot of conversations we have these days if we're primarily focusing on text messaging. that was underlined in the article. >> coming up, actor david kim and his broadway play which takes on a controversial casting

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we are looking to cast this role with an asian. >> as you should. >> does he look asian to you? >> i have to cast this in a way that feels right to me, and i can tell an asian when i see one. >> eurasian, right?you're sian,? >> can you imagine if this got

into the papers? >> it wouldn't be just me, it would be you, too. >> in this face asian parts most only ever be played by asian actors. >> i didn't go through those protests and hunger strikes so a white impostor could help himself to our hard-won opportunities. >> but didn't you cast him? >> i don't want to talk about it. >> those are the scenes from the broadway play entitled "yellow face" which was inspired by real events. in this thoughtful comedy about race and identity playwright david henry quang finds himself in a racial casting scandal. after the controversial casting of a non-asian actor in an asian role. let's bring in actor, director, producer and social advocate daniel day kim. i think i tried to explain the plot here. this has gotten such great reviews, inspired by real events but maybe it's best if you

explain the story of this production. >> sure. it actually starts with a real-life event, the casting of a white actor to play an asian role in the broadway show "miss saigon" in the '90s. the playwright, david henry, lost that battle and this tells the story of the play that he wrote in response to that casting controversy where he was intending to hire an asian male lead but mistake edgily he, himself, hired a white person to play that asian male. and so he made the same mistake that he was actually protesting. and that is where the play starts. it actually grows from there and becomes more of a referendum on the mourn dream, about family, about hope and aspirations on as

a society. >> it was back in 2007 but you were coming out of an election where identity politics was front and center. so talk to us about this renewed timelessness it has today. >> i think it's actually more relevant than it was when it first was produced in 2007 because these issues about chinese versus chinese american and asian americans being blamed for things that happened in asia is something that's not only going on that not only happened during the coronavirus era but today where we have business leaders and those chinese american being blamed for things going on 5,000 miles away. it's still timely but what is really important about the show it's not a history lesson. it's not in a school room, a classroom lesson, it's a comedy. the playwright deftly employs this technique where he makes fun of himself because, you know, when it comes to these

kinds of politics, we all have something to learn. no one is 100% right. no one is 100% wrong. people are trying to grow, learn, and figure out how we all live together, and that's what this play is ultimately about. >> daniel, does it have an underlying, dealing with an underlying problem where at one level you have to deal with the exclusion of asians, jews, of blacks, of gays that have been excluded from opportunities, but, at the same time, you don't want to play into those that want to be able to do things like play a certain role that your play talks about that may not fit the identity of the role they're playing. so how do you balance it? i think there's been that kind of problem across many of us in civil rights. how do you not discriminate but at the same time break down the institutional discrimination? >> it's such a great question.

>> it's not an easy fix. it requires a lot of nuance, a lot of thought, black face has been a part of our history since the country's inception. yellow face is a part of that same history. and, you know, what this play does is it attempts to look at it in a more nuanced way than just this is wrong, this is right. it talks about the humanity behind those decisions and, you know, the attempt to actually do the right thing because sometimes people can make mistakes trying to do the right things as opposed to having ill intentions. and there's a difference between those people who are trying to act with malicious intent and those who are trying to learn but making mistakes along the way. >> not only a great piece of work but something that has moral imperatives that get pushed forward. you don't always get that and this is kind of something you litsch for i assume. >> that's one of the things that attract pd ed me to the play, ts are important and relevant right now and at the same time my

first job is to entertain. >> sure. >> and, you know, right now we could all use a little bit of diversion as well and it's nice to be able to come into the theater and laugh, forget about some of the things going on in the outside world for a little while, but then also, you know, have your perspective changed to have you think a little bit differently about what's going on in our country today. >> "yellow face" playing now through november 24th at the. >> tom: tom haimes theater. it's great to have you on the show this morning. >> and that's it for us. tune in tomorrow morning for a brand-new week of "morning joe." until then try to enjoy the rest of your weekend. weekend. good morning, it's saturday, november 17th.