that does it for me today, but stay right where you are, because there's much more news coming up on msnbc.

an nbc news exclusive about donald trump's transition team and the afghanistan withdrawal raising big questions today about who the new administration might go after in its probe. good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters here in new york. welcome, everyone, to "alex witt reports." we begin with 64 days until inauguration. a new and vigorous debate today over donald trump's most controversial administration picks, including his latest for secretary of energy. oil and gas industry executive, chris wright, a defender of fossil fuel use, and a climate crisis denier. in a post to linkedin last year, wright said, there is no climate crisis and we're not in the midst of an energy transition, a sentiment and choice already

being criticized by environmental groups. meanwhile, house speaker mike johnson broadly defending all of trump's picks so far. >> this is what i'll say about the nominees that the president has put forward. is that they are persons who will shake up the status quo. and i think what the american people have believed and what they delivered with the mandate in this election is demand that we shake up the status quo. it's not working for the american people. >> also new reaction today to the prospect of trump avoiding the senate confirmation process with recess appointments. >> you introduced me, shannon, as someone who will get a chance to vote on all of these nominations. i certainly hope that's the case. and that we won't see nominees jammed through this recess appointments where there's no confirmation hearing, no confirmation vote, and they take over incredibly powerful positions. >> meanwhile, at least one democrat saying that the party shouldn't fall into a trump trolling trap with some of his

elections. >> there's some that i would absolutely be excited to vote for, like my colleague from florida or the representative from new york, of course. and then there's others that are just absolute trolls, like gaetz and those things. >> and still other democrats saying, no matter the results of the election, they must maintain their principles and hold a new administration accountable for its actions. >> this is not also a moment to retreat, on basic human values and decency. it's not a matter to retreat on focusing on civil rights, on standing up to bullies, and taking on the republicans and donald trump's absolute worst policies. from an oversight perspective, we need to keep them accountable for all the harm they'll try to cause our democracies and our institutions. >> we have reporters and analysts in place ready to go over all of these new developments. nbc's ali rafa is up first, and has been following every element of the trump transition. what is the very latest on the

president-elect's cabinet picks? >> reporter: yeah, alex, well, we spoke yesterday about this slow drip of cabinet announcements by the president-elect. and last night, while he was in new york for that ufc fight, he made the announcement that he's going to be picking an oil industry ceo chris wright for energy secretary, as well as, to be part of his newly formed energy council. now, wright has no former government experience, and as a staunch defender of fossil fuels, he'll help to try to fulfill some of trump's oil and gas production. and wright has publicly denied that there is a climate crisis. alex, we also talked yesterday about these new headwinds that some of these picks are facing. there is new controversy now over president-elect trump's pick to lead the defense department. pete hegseth, "the washington

post" yesterday breaking the news that hegseth paid a woman for her silence years after a sexual encounter at a 2017 republican conference. that unidentified woman said that it was sexual assault, but hegseth's attorney tells nbc news that the encounter was consensual, saying hegseth paid her out of losing her job at fox during the height of the me too movement. an attorney saying, mr. hegseth is innocent. eyewitness video and evidence confirms that she was the aggressor and years later, she extorted mr. hegseth for money. and no charges were ever filed if that case, alex. >> speaking of hegseth, he has criticized the chaosic u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan. what does the trump transition team have in mind for the military officers in charge of that operation? >> yeah, our colleagues covering the pentagon have new exclusive reporting that the trump transition team is compiling a list of current and former

military officials involved in the withdrawal from afghanistan. according to sources familiar with those plans. and you'll remember that trump has repeatedly condemned the 2021 suicide bombing outside of the gate at the kabul airport that left 13 u.s. service members and about 170 afghan civilians dead, calling it the most embarrassing day in the history of our country. nbc has also learned the trump team is exploring whether these military officials being compiled could also be tried for crimes in a military court. and you'll remember, a 2022 independent review of that blamed both the trump and biden administrations. we have reached out to the trump team for comment and have not heard back, alex. >> okay. ali rafa, thank you so much for that. joining me right now, we have tom nichols, staff writer for "the atlantic," a retired professor at the u.s. naval war college. i welcome you, tom. we'll begin with the trump transition team's plan to potentially courts-martial officers involved in the

afghanistan pullout. independent reviews have put blame on both the trump and the biden administration for the withdrawal. is there any necessary military justice protocol to find people responsible for those 13 american service members who were killed? >> no, there isn't. and we really have to drop the narrative that somehow this is about afghanistan. it has nothing to do with afghanistan. this is trump firing a shot over the heads of senior officers, telling them that from now on, loyalty to the constitution is not their oath. that from now on, it's loyalty to him. and he won't tolerate the kind of things that happen -- excuse me, in his first administration, where he had people like general mille and others refusing and right to talk him out of doing things like shooting protesters in the streets. this whole business about afghanistan is a smoke screen, either to get to somebody like milley and other senior

officials like former secretary of defense esper, or it's merely just a kind of head fake to put some fear into the senior officers of the defense department, even if it doesn't come to fruition that these trials happened. either way, this is about trying to capture the military, intimidate its senior officers and make the d.o.d. into a compliant instrument of donald trump's will. and if these -- if this court-martial story is confirmed and goes forward, we're in the beginning of a serious constitutional crisis. >> look, how much would the advancement of pete hegseth moving into head of the d.o.d., how would that facilitate what you're talking about? the potential constitutional crisis? >> it would be perfect, because hegseth has no idea what he's doing. he has his own dirty laundry that he doesn't want to come out, as you're seeing now in the reporting about his background.

and he would be perfectly happy to do whatever donald trump tells him to do. this would not be a secretary of defense again who observes his oath to the constitution or protects and takes care of the people under his stewardship, both civilian and military. if donald trump says fire up some court-martials and go after some people that made me angry four years ago, he's going to do it. and that's partly why donald trump has chosen these people, because he knows that they'll do it. and the three most important -- if you're going to undermine a democracy, the three most important departments you need to capture are justice, defense, and the intelligence community. and he has put no-nothing loyalists into all of them, or is trying to. >> okay. let's move to intelligence then. your latest article for "the atlantic," you say trump's national security pick is a national security risk.

why don't you think tulsi gabbard is qualified for the job? >> because she's not qualified. because she has no background in any of this. she has no background in the intelligence community. she's never managed anything. these are gigantic bureaucracies that require at least some executive chops. she has no experience with the intelligence community. and she's a risk because her views would normally disqualify her from this kind of job, this kind of top clearance. i mean, it's, you know, i keep saying, as a former federal employee, we had to sit through insider threat training every year to -- where they talked about, you know, are there people who have grudges against the u.s. government, who seem overly friendly to foreign government, who have foreign contacts who seem shady and so on. and as i wrote in the piece, gabbard is like this walking christmas tree of warning lights. but i suspect that there's another reason that trump is putting her in there.

to say, to the intelligence community, you will not have a director who will obey the constitution and protect the national security of the united states. you'll have a director of national intelligence who answers to me and will give me whatever i want. and you're all on notice about that. and it's the same message he's sending to justice and defense. >> so her appointment, potentially, what would that do to the relationships and information we have in terms of sharing with our allies? >> well, the real question is, what does it do to our allies, thinking about sharing with us? you know, the united states does not act alone in the world. for all of the people who talk about america first, really have no idea what they're talking about. what they're really saying is, america alone. and our allies, i think, looking at someone like tulsi gabbard as dni would be deeply hesitant to

share anything with us that could get any of their people killed, harm their national interest, expose their national secrets. this would really hobble the american intelligence community. and i think that's part of donald trump's plan here. he doesn't care about national security. he cares about loyalty. >> okay. well, listen, of the troika you've talked about, defense and intelligence justice, we'll get to the matt gaetz issue in just a moment. meantime, i thank you so much, tom nichols. we'll see you again. to do that, everyone, we're bringing in nbc's julie tsirkin from capitol hill for more on trump's cabinet picks. specifically, julie, all the buzz around the choice to nominate. >> he does not want that house ethics report that we had anticipated, perhaps, the panel would release at the end of this week to come out. and he also doesn't want though report, not only to come out

publicly, but also get in the hands of the senators who are going to be going through matt gaetz' file and his battleground to see if he is qualified enough, as many of them do not believe that he is, to lead the department of justice, the agency that once investigated him for sex trafficking. i want you to take a listen to what johnson had to say this morning and we'll talk about it on the other side. >> no, he did not. the president and i have literally not discussed one word about the ethics report, not once. i didn't even know about it, jake, until the middle of this week when it was announced in the press. what i have said with regard to the report is that it should not come out. and why? because matt gaetz resigned from congress. he's no longer a member. there's a very important protocol and tradition and rule that we maintain that the house ethics committee's jurisdiction does not extend to non-members of congress. i think that would be a pandora's box. >> now, alex, i told you yesterday that the only thing that changed in between johnson saying that he is not going to weigh in to the ethics report or what that committee does and him

saying 24 to 36 hours later that he doesn't want the panel to release those documents is that he did go to mar-a-lago and he did see president-elect trump. he also saw him last night at the ufc fight in new york. so spending quite a lot of time with the president-elect. johnson vows this topic didn't come out. however, we just heard from a democrat on the senate judiciary committee, by richard blumenthal, when says he expects the fbi background check on gaetz to include the findings and conclusions of the doj investigation that happened under merrick garland. gaetz was not cleared, but he was not charged. you have republican senators, mark wayne mullin, a republican who told kristen welker, he still want s to see the findin of that report. >> thanks so much for that. meantime, he didn't just flip the script. he tore up the script, set fire to it, and wrote one of his own. the challenges that lie ahead with donald trump's cabinet

picks. we're back in 90 seconds. trump' picks. we're back in 90 seconds whiter t 2 shades eeth as well as providing 24/7 sensitivity protection. patients are going to love to see sensodyne on the shelf. make this christmas the year you go all-in on joy. at balsam hill, celebrate with one of our beautifullly crafted, life-like trees. for a limited time during our black friday sale, save up to 50% off plus free shipping. and start making memories at balsamhill.com

there's no question that matt gaetz and i have had our differences, and that's no secret. moving forward, i do respect president trump's right to appoint these individuals, but underneath article ii, section ii, congress has to advise and consent. and matt gaetz is going to go through the same scrutiny as every other individual. >> there are some that i would absolutely be excited to vote

for, like my colleague from florida, or the representative from new york, of course. and then there's others that are just absolute trolls, just like gaetz. >> joining me now, national political correspondent for politico, meredith mcgraw, and msnbc news political reporter, alan smith. as i welcome you both, meredith, you just heard from two senators about trump's picks for attorney general, florida congressman matt gaetz, what are you hearing from your sources on whether gaetz has a shot at being confirmed? >> well, i think as you've just heard from lawmakers there, there are some members of donald trump's cabinet picks that seem like they will have a pretty clear path to confirmation. we're talking about people like senator marco rubio, who trump has tapped for secretary of state or elise stefanick for u.n. ambassador, but some of his more recent picks could really cause some headaches up on the

hill for trump and his team, in particular, of course, matt gaetz, julie had some great reporting there about how many republican senators have expressed that they have concerns about him actually being able to get confirmed. and matt gaetz is somebody who hasn't exactly lined up a lot of allies or friends on the hill over the years. and so him getting through, i think, trump's team and trump himself, are determined to see him become the attorney general, but how that happens remains to be seen. >> yeah. ali, you share a by-line on a report about trump's new department of government efficiency, which will be co-led by billionaire elon musk and trump's gop primary rival, vivek ramaswamy. they'll be tasked with reigning in the government spending and downsizing the federal workforce. but you write that there are serious doubts as to whether the agency can accomplish that. can you explain why?

>> well, i mean, first off, alex, this is an advisory committee. so ultimately, no matter what they do, it's going to be recommendations made to the broader trump administration and congress to carry out. now, when it comes to government spending, congress is going to have to play a huge role there. and you know, we've heard elon musk talking about cutting potentially $2 trillion from the federal budget. it's going to be extremely difficult to do that without touching social security, medicare, defense, you know, a number of programs that donald trump didn't really express very much interest in cutting. and it's interesting in hearing from democrats so far, when they're asked about this new sort of advisory committee, they are pointing to, well, we hope that we can make some cuts to the defense budget, get some of the bloat out of defense spending. they have viewed this as at least early on, an opportunity to highlight an area for cuts that they have talked about for years. it seems as if people are approaching it with an open

mind, but ultimately, given that this isn't an official government agency, these are going to be recommendations that are made. now, the only other thing that i would add is that when it comes to cutting the bureaucracy, they might have more leeway there. because they're going to be making those recommendations to the trump administration and a lot of those things can be done without congress. so we will -- we will, obviously, see how this goes in the early days. >> 100%. all right, meredith, president-elect trump has now picked chris wright, the ceo of a fracking company, to lead the department of energy. and also to serve on a new national energy council. wright is a climate science skeptic who has said global warming is a myth. does tapping him for energy secretary mean addressing climate change will not be any part of trump's agenda? >> well, we heard over the past few years, as donald trump campaigned for president, that two of his big goals starting on

day one would be to -- is fracking and to pull back president biden's green new deal. and trump has repeatedly talked about how he's assailed president biden's green new deal and some of the green energy pieces of that legislation and so i think that's going to be a huge priority for trump and wright, as trump has said, starting day one. >> and you contributed, alan, to another recent article reporting fresh off of kamala harris' equity. there are about two dozen or so democrats already jockeying to position themselves for the 2028 presidential election. so what names are topping that list and how much will is opposition to trump play in leading the democratic party out of the political wilderness? >> well win mean, seemingly, everyone with a brand in the democratic party right now is someone who is being mentioned as a potential future leader.

look, right now, coming out of the 2024 election, it's not even clear who the leader of the democratic party is. there's going to be a lot of jockeying for that position. now, look, democrats that i spoke to, they noted that the governors are going to have an inside track here, because they're going to have the ability to combat some of the stuff that the incoming trump administration is going to do from an executive position. they're going to have more power than some of these members of congress who don't have the majority. and obviously, vice president kamala harris is going to be out of a job come january. so he's going to have less ability to influence the conversation coming forward. these are people like gavin newsom, who announced a special session last week, visited washington, capitol hill, and the biden white house to set the stage for trying to protect some of the programs that he's got in place in california. you've seen j.d. pritzker, josh shapiro, gretchen whitmer. the list goes on and on. >> your book presents an insider

view of mar-a-lago, this after trump's 2020 defeat and the january 6th riot. and a new "washington post" article reports beyond the celebrations happening right now at mar-a-lago, a lot is not going according to plan, despite the transition team investigate some of the cabinet picks, trump has reportedly been openering off his own script, as evidenced by his choices of matt gaetz, rfk jr., pete hegseth for these top positions. what are you hearing from inside mar-a-lago and trump's approach to filling out his cabinet? >> well, it's very difficult, i think, than what we saw in 2016, where candidates were paraded through the lobby of trump tower and were really on display for the press and the world to see who was coming in and out of these meetings. this time, it's all being held behind closed doors at mar-a-lago. there's one room in particular where there are tv screens set up so donald trump can review people's news and tv clips and their tv hits. because, of course, we know,

television performance to donald trump is an important piece of all of this. and you know, there's been different events going on at mar-a-lago. he has been getting calls and visits from friends and allies, and different people getting in his ear about some of his candidates. and some of it has come together pretty last minute, if you think about somebody like matt gaetz. that was a decision that was made on the flight up to washington, excuse me, from palm beach, the same day that he was going to visit president biden at the white house, he had been disappointed and not really feeling some of his other candidates for attorney general, and matt gaetz was on the flight and here we are. so some of it is not really people that we had heard about or had been on the list for some of these different positions and had just come up in conversation, and donald trump had gone with them, because he really is trying to fill out a

cabinet of loyalists and fierce defenders who are going to be enacting his policies starting on the first day. >> okay. meredith and alan, thank you much. breaking news from overseas, president biden doing something no sitting american president has ever done until now. plp blp

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. breaking news in brazil. president biden making history, becoming the first sitting u.s. president to tour the amazon

rain forest. it comes a day after biden met with chinese president xi jinping for the last time before leaving office. nbc news senior white house correspondent kelly o'donnell is joining me now from rio de janeiro, brazil, ahead of the g-20 summit there. welcome, kelly, it's good to see you. let's talk about president biden's parting message to president xi. what was it? >> well, good to be with you, alex. certainly, president biden wanted to emphasize some key things. part of that is the long personal relationship he has had with president xi nping, and that goes back to before each were president of their nations. they've known each other for a long time. they've spent considerable time together. and it is one of the most complex relationships, the united states and china, for so many reasons. economic competition, power centers in the world, the influence that china has with some u.s. foes like north korea and russia. certainly, in this meeting, part of what president biden said he wanted to do was to emphasize

the stability that has been created during the time of his four years in office, the restoration of things like direct communication between the american military and the chinese military. something considered very critical to avoid, kind of impulsive missteps that could happen if they weren't in conversations. the president spoke about this directly, looking across the table at xi. here's part of what he had to say. >> we haven't always agreed, but our conversations have always been candid and always been frank. we have never kidded one another. we've been level with one another. i think that's vital. these conversations prevent miscalculations and they ensure that the competition between our two countries will not veer into conflict. the possession, not conflict. that's our responsibility, to our people, and as you indicated, to the people around the world. >> to some degree, these kinds

of meetings at the end of a presidential term could be viewed as bookends. another way of looking at it that the u.s. is certainly trying to project is maintaining and sort of solidifying the relationships before there is a transition. there was no open discussion of donald trump when reporters were in the room to see the two leaders together, but there was an acknowledgement that the u.s. is going through a transition. and later, a senior official said, this was not a case of president biden either taking a message from president xi or delivering one from donald trump. they will have their own communications separately when the new administration comes into office. but this is about trying to really fortify the areas where there has been cooperation, to talk about the areas where it has been difficult, and of course, trying to keep stability, two superpowers having stability at a time of change something they consider very important. alex? >> okay! good to have you on the show. kelly o. from rio, appreciate that.

the situation has been bad in kroon ukraine for years, bute past 24 hours, it just got much worse. plus, the usual or unexpected or surprising take, define it how you will, on the war from ukrainian president zelenskyy. r ukrainian president zelenskyy. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪]

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breaking news. at least three people are dead after a massive missile attack on ukraine. it is russia's biggest since august. power facilities across the country were targeted. that includes the zaporizhzhia

nuclear plant. ukrainians have been bracing for a major attack on its power grid for weeks, fearing damage to the system would cause more blackouts, with winter arriving soon. officials say russia used a combination of 120 cruise and ballistic missiles fired from bombers, from warships, also land-based systems, as well as 90 drones. joining me now, we have michael mcfaul, former u.s. ambassador to russia. ambassador, it's always good to see you. so, this particular attack, it leads into the statement from ukraine's president, volodymyr zelenskyy, who's now saying that the war will, quote, end faster under the policies of donald trump. what is his reasoning? do you agree or call he just be trying to curry favor? >> well, president zelenskyy and the entire ukrainian government and frankly every government i know around the world, in europe and asia, has been plotting

their plan "b"s for the event that president-elect would tru re-elected. they have been plotting this for months. what i see president zelenskyy doing is to try to curry vo say nice things about president-elect trump. he's read everybody else's playbooks with trump and he understands that flattery is important. and now, they want to test president-elect trump at his word. he said that he could end this war in 24 hours before he was even sworn in. obviously, that's not going to happen. but he said that he has a plan to try to end this war, and i think president zelenskyy wants to see if, in fact, that's true. >> and he said it would have to be diplomatically, right? >> well, of course. right now, the discussion on the -- in the trump orbit and people around president-elect trump, they're all talking about what zelenskyy needs to do to end the war. well, you know wing president zelenskyy's ready to think about

concessions. but what he wants president-elect trump to think about and people around him is, what are you going to get putin to do to end the war? because let's remember, putin started this war. putin invaded ukraine. zelenskyy didn't invade russia until very late in the war. and i think he's hinting that if there's going to be a deal, an art of the deal, there's got to be compromises on both sides. and they want trump and his people to start thinking about what they're going to press putin to do to end the war. >> i know you frequently talk with people in ukraine. what are their feelings about donald trump's return to power? >> they're nervous. they're very nervous. they worry that he doesn't understand that cutting assistance to ukraine will not lead to the end of the war in ukraine. they've seen what people around him, right? i want to keep saying that. they've seen what people around them said. we'll cut aid and the war will be over. they don't believe that. they believe if we cut aid,

putin will try to capture kyiv. and by the way, that's very logical. i study wars, i teach about wars. wars don't end when one side thinks they're winning and the other side is being disarmed. wars end in one of two ways. either one side wins or there's a stalemate on the battlefield. if we end our assistance to ukraine, that is neither of those to conditions. so they worry that they'll be disarmed, but that won't stop putin from keeping going, that will only embolden him. >> so you write -- you did it this week, saying that president biden still has the chance to shape his legacy on the russia/ukraine war. what is biden's unfinished business in ukraine and does he have time to finish it? >> the first thing i said is to give ukrainians complete permission to use all of our weapons against russian targets. there's been some reporting about that. i haven't confirmed it, but that would be the first step. the second, we have seized

russian central bank assets, billions of them, and those should now be delivered to the ukrainian fund before president-elect trump comes back into power and that would empower the europeans to do so as well. third, there's all kinds of things we can do on sanctions. just sanctioning all of the ships in the so-called -- the never-never land of these gray area ships, that putin is now using to export his oil, sanction those now, and fourth, declare russia a state sponsor of terrorism. i think that should have been done years ago. i just want to remind your viewers, that cuba is on our list so i dare anybody to make the target to me how cuba is a greater sponsor of terrorism than russia. but if you don't believe that, i think doing this would be a chit that biden could give to

president trump that he could then use in the negotiations. four concrete things that could all be done before january 20th. >> i'm going to reveal what you were referring to when you said, there are some reports about potentially allowing ukraine to do just what you said, which is use the full armament of access to military use that we have given them year in the united states. this is coming from "the new york times," "the washington post", from reuters, and i want to add that nbc news is working to confirm this independently. but there are reports that president biden is allowing ukraine to strike russia with long-range missiles. he reportedly has authorized the ukrainian military to use the systems to help defend its forces in the kerrsk area of russia. let me ask you about your take on donald trump's latest staff

picks. i want to talk about tulsi gabbard and his choice for dni. in 2017, went to syria to meet with president bashar al asad. you heard debbie sserman schulze calling her a russian asset. do you think she would compromise u.s. intelligence information? >> before pivoting to the really bad ones, and she's not the only one, i want to acknowledge that he's made some very legitimate picks. senator rubio, i have disagreements with him about certain aspects of his views on foreign policy, but he was part of my confirmation hearings in 2011 and i remind you of that for two reasons. one, it was a substantiative conversation and two, it was a long time ago. he's been at this for a long time. and if we had more time, i would say the same thing about michael walz. but this one is troubling for exactly the reasons you just

described. i hope the senate will take very seriously these allegations. i don't know if they're true or not, but most certainly, our intelligence community will know if they're true. and then, second, even if they're not true, i think this particular nominee needs to understand that this is not a policy-making job. the head of the dni is about intelligence. we don't issue the president should not be asking her for her policy advice. and second, we cannot have the politicization of intelligence. that would be a disaster for american national security, including for president trump. he needs his information to be completely clean of any political views and i hope if tulsi gabbard is confirmed, she understands those two principles. you're not a policy maker and you're not there to politicize intelligence. >> you know, michael, as we look through this "new york times"/"washington post" reporting that you have referenced and that i've

illuminated to some degree. if true, how does that change the trajectory of the war and timing wise, does it need to be done between today and january 20? >> first of all, that should have been done a long time ago. i have never understood why we put these limitations on. there's some alleged fear of escalation that i've never understood. and i'm not privy to secret information, so maybe. the biden administration knew things i didn't, but i never agreed with this. >> can i ask you, was it because putin threatened nato and said, if you cross this line, i'm coming after you? >> allegedly, that's one threat that's been out there. and allegedly, he's threatened to use nuclear weapons. and i'm not saying these are easy decisions, but if our goal is to help ukraine keep us a sovereign country and defend their country, the idea that russia can attack ukraine from russian bases, but the

ukrainians can't attack those same bases that are attacking them never made any sense to me. and i'll remind everybody, in the united nations charter, there's the right to self-defense. but having said that, better late than never. and yes, of course, all of these restrictions should be lifted. and i hope the biden administration is moving all of the pledge assistance to ukraine as fast as possible, so that it is already transferred before we have a transfer on january 20th at the white house. >> all right. let's see how all of this unfolds. we're definitely going to have you back to talk about that and more. thank you so much, my friend, see you. baggage check. what's been uncovered about some of donald trump's cabinet picks, that's next. about some of donald trump's cabinet picks, that's next. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spell.

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despite pushback on and shock on both sides of the aisle at donald trump's cabinet picks, the administration does not seem to be backing down. a few of the most controversial picks including robert f kennedy jr. and tulsi gabbard joined trump and house speaker mike johnson at the ufc fight at madison square garden last night. meanwhile, democrats are reacting to trump's selections today. >> what president donald trump wants to do is essentially allow him to throw out the merit-based system and bring in political crony who is will do his will. so, they're not really after efficiency. what they're really after is replacing merit-based civil

servants with people who will do the president's bidding. >> with me now, republican strategist susan del percio and david jolly, both of whom are msnbc political analysts and two-thirds of my sunday family. so, susan, is the concern more that some of these picks will be incompetent or that they'll know what they're doing and ideologically undermine their agencies? >> well, both things can be true. and i believe they are. you have incompetency and you also have people who will carry out donald trump's agenda. now, when it comes to carrying out the president-elect's agenda, that's what he -- he got elected. he won. we knew he was going to be picking folks like rfk jr. to run health, only because he told us that that's what he was going to do. now, my concern is that it's one thing to bring in people who have like-minded policy, but you also need to have competence. you need to have someone who is

used to running a big organization to take on the -- to be the secretary of defense, which oversees millions of people. so, that's where i think those who are against or have questions about the appointments that have been named should really make their punch list on, competency. because they're not competent. it's like choosing an accountant to do your heart surgery in rfk's case. >> another word is experience, david. several of these picks, gaetz, gabbard, hegseth, these guys have little-to-no experience in their fields. they've been chosen for complete loyalty above all else. is it sinking in now for republicans that this trump term, potentially without competent leaders around them, will be markedly different than the first? >> well, look, i think donald trump actually beat back the experience and wisdom that he surrounded himself with initially in '17 and '18.

and i think this is exactly what republicans expected. and their legacy, senate republicans, is on the line as well. the one asterisk i have out there is on matt gaetz. i actually think that rfk jr. gets by, gabbard gets by, but not only the personal fitness questions of matt gaetz, but this is someone who is wholly inexperienced and unqualified, empirically unqualified to run the department of justice. so are there four republican senators that just won't go along? those legacies, i'm thinking of former house members, bill cassidy, james langford from ohio, kevin cramer from north dakota, and a few others, are they willing to support a matt gaetz as the attorney general? and the curveball is, would donald trump consider a recess appointment? this is what he told them they would do, though. and if you supported donald trump, you're just as responsible for this as the president-elect is. >> let me ask you a question that's challenging dave's assessment of hegseth. we're learning that he, the fox news host tapped for defense

secretary, was flagged as a possible threat as a fellow service member, when he was removed from his assignment. hegseth said it was due to a jerusalem cross tattooed, but politico reports it was a different tattoo that read a afraid that's used by white supremacists. >> no matter what, they cannot do recess appointments. they have to hold these hearings, let the public know, get the questions, have their background checks by the fbi, alex. donald trump was looking to basically outsource it to other companies, because he didn't want to have a thorough background check and find out things like we did. as a matter of fact, when it comes to hegseth, the transition team did not know about the incident in california, which is covered by an nda regarding a

sexual assault. >> right, right. >> but most importantly, they have to -- i want those senators to be accountable for voting "yes" for some of these people. they must be held accountable. >> let me ask you, last word, david. are any of these picks going to drop out? and if so, who do you think will be first to go? >> so, it depends on next six weeks. there's a lot of opposition research that will come out. that's the question around matt gaetz. does the report leak about his personal fitness, that the allegations of sexual conduct with a minor? if so, is that disqualifying among republicans? this is where donald trump and j.d. vance have said, we're taking our team and you're with us or not. donald trump controls this party. republican senators' legacy is on the line, and we will get to measure their fitness as much as the likes of matt gaetz come january. >> can't wait to see you next weekend. we'll have more to talk about then. thank you. new today, an msnbc exclusive report about the trump transition team and the list it's compiling about afghanistan.

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