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♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome to "alex witt reports," we begin this hour with breaking news. nbc news along with several other media outlets reporting president biden will allow ukraine to strike russia with long-range u.s. missiles. we'll havemore on that in just a few minutes for you and with 64 days until inauguration day the raging debate continues over donald trump's choices for

critical cabinet and high-level administration positions. trump has now named his pike for white house press secretary and energy secretary, but four selections remain at the center of attention on the sunday talk shows. house speaker mike johnson defending his push to keep an ethics committee report on matt gaetz from seeing the light of day. >> the comments about this being -- there's a precedent for releasing reports is not exactly accurate. yeah, there are two breaches of tradition in the past under very extraordinary circumstance e i don't think this meets that criteria. if the house ethics committee and its resources which are significant, substantial can be used to investigate people who are not in the house then where would that end? >> house minority leader hakeem jeffries says the case for releasing the ethics report is clear. >> of course, it should be released, and that's not just democrats saying that. you have repeatedly seen senate republicans make clear who are

on the senate judiciary committee all throughout that chamber say that they want access to all available information so they can make a decision about whether the nominee for attorney general is qualified to serve in that office. the senate has a clear responsibility to serve as a spate separate and co-equal branch of government. >> and robert f. kennedy, jr., with what appears to be a fast food meal and it comes as a former hhs secretary issued a new warning about his agenda. >> this is life or death. the hhs affects people from birth to their grave. i think it's totally disqualifying for anyone who seeks to lead the major health agency in this country and one of the leaders in the world to just unequivocally say there is no safe and effective vaccine. that in and of itself from the

bully pulpit of hhs could end up killing people. >> and still other democrats looking ahead after losing a close election with plans to show americans how they're standing up for what matters most. >> going forward, over the next couple of years, we have a chance every day, every moment to show the american people that we are laser focused on jobs, on their health care, on their infrastructure, on their kids' education, just those everyday worries and with this administration, at least right now, selecting some very extreme appointees. it's a chance to make a real difference. >> we have reporters and analysts in place covering all of these new developments for us. nbc's allie rafa and joins me right near west palm beach, florida, near mar-a-lago. how his pick could complicate his confirmation. what's the latest on that? >> yeah, alex. we've been talking about some of the headwinds that some of these

picks by president-elect trump are ahead of the confirmation process and now there's controversy around his pick for defense secretary pete hegseth after "the washington post" broke the news that hegseth paid a woman for her silence years after a sexual encounter at a 2017 republican conference. that woman remains unidentified and she claims that it was sexual assault, but hegseth's attorney insists that this encounter was consensual and that hegseth only paid her after fear of losing his job at fox news at the height of the me too movement. eyewitness and video evidence confirms that she was the aggressor and years later she extorted mr. hegseth for money and no charges were ever filed in this case, alex. earlier today we heard from donald trump, jr., who has himself teasing more involvement in his father's next term and he

downplayed the controversy over his father's cabinet picks. listen to him here. >> it's about surrounding my father who are both competent and loyal, they will deliver on his promises, they will deliver on his message and they are not people who think they know better as unelected bureaucrats. some of them are going to be controversial. they're controversial because they'll actually get things done. the swamp doesn't want that. >> controversy? he's talking about only growing around trump's latest pick announcing yesterday he'd pick a denver fracking company chris wright as the secretary of energy and part of his newly formed energy council. wright has no prior government experience and as a fierce defender of fossil fuels he's expected to fulfill trump's longstanding promise to maximize u.s. oil and gas production so industry leaders are now celebrating this announcement, but environmental advocacy groups are condemning this pick of wright who has denied that there is a worsening climate

crisis and has said that burning fossil fuels is necessary to lift the developing world out of poverty, alex. >> allie raffa, thank you very much from west palm beach beach. we'll go to julie sorkin on trump's controversial cabinet picks. julie, there's been a lot of concern over national security especially surrounding tulsi gabbard as director of national intelligence. what are you hearing? >> it almost got buried when the news came out because the pick of matt gaetz came so shortly after ward, but still lawmakers are very concerned over the possibility of tulsi gabbard who used to be a congresswoman, who ran for president in 2020 and who became a republican and is it trump's maga orbit to have her in such a critical post, a critical position especially when she has made concerning comments in the past. some democratic lawmaker especially calling out that she has perhaps said some misinformation, disinformation, down played foreign adversaries including the actions of

vladimir putin during the invasion of ukraine years ago. i want you to take a listen to what elissa slotkin had to say earlier today. watch this. >> i just need to know that the people who are in these jobs are not going to be guided by politics and what someone tells them they think they should be seeing in the intelligence or in the defense picture, but what is actually the truth on the ground, speaking truth to power is one of the most important things the intelligence community does, and if you have someone in there who feels more behold tone telling the president what he wants to hear, i've got a real problem with that. >> now slotkin is very relevant to this conversation because of her experience before she got into politics and that is that shoo she was an analyst in the cia. she did multiple tours in the middle east and she knows what she's talking about when she says that this position, this post requires somebody who will not be in the middle of

politics, and who is going to be objective when they approach the very threats that are facing this country right now. >> okay. thank you so much for that report from capitol hill. joining me right now, we have democratic congressman jake ok ochencloss from massachusetts. i want to start with this breaking news that president biden has approved ukraine's use of long-range u.s. weapons now inside of russia. first of all, do you agree with this move? >> nice to see you, alex. not only do i agree with it. i've been advocating for it for half a year. it is long overdue, but still positive. i would encourage the administration, though, to make clear that ukraine can use these attack guns to strike energy infrastructure in particular the four oil refineries surrounding moscow which account for about a third of refined petroleum, and that petroleum is the lifeblood of putin's war economy. if they can impair the functioning of those oil refineries all of which are

within range of u.s.-made weapons, they can grind to a halt putin's advances. >> but do you think this would be an escalation or could it result to a faster conclusion to this war? >> nato can't flinch every time putin flexes. he's an autocrat. nato needs to demonstrate strength not just to the kremlin, but also beijing and the authoritarianism seeking to probe for weak spots amongst the west and looking to exploit any weakness that they find. we need to demonstrate on the front lines of the free world that the united states and nato are going to stand with freedom and democracy wherever they're under attack. >> part of this new york times article, sir, suggests that the biden administration is sending a message directly to north korea in saying that their forces are vulnerable now with the use of this u.s. armament, and that they should not send

more troops, about 10,000, we believe, are on the ground right now, north korean troops assisting russia in the war against ukraine. does that message, you think, stick? >> if the missiles are used to attack troop staging sites that include north korean troop, absolutely. i just wouldn't exclusively scope the target to troop staging sites. i'd want to expand it to missile hubs and logistics, and most impactfully to energy infrastructure. >> okay. let's move on, speaking of energy, to donald trump's choice of chris wright, the ceo of a fracking firm as energy secretary. again, this just as president biden has been out touring the amazon stressing climate action. we do expect to hear from the president shortly, as well, in case i have to interrupt you, that's why. how do you see this pick in the country impacting the goals and as a member of the transportation committee specifically president biden's push for zero carbon

transportation. >> alex, if i were a senator i wouldn't vote for him. let me tell you i remain at root optimistic about the united states' ability to take climate action and to work with the rest of the world on achieving our climate goals by 2050 and the reason is that the inflation reduction act has turbo charged the clean energy transition. we are seeing vision, fusion, solar, geothermal, wind all adopted at utility scale, and i think that we have unleashed the animal spirits of the private sector and the ingenuity of our scientists and technologists, and i do think that we'll continue to make progress even as we democrats in washington fight to begin our natural habitats from drilling. let me tell you where i'm deeply concerned where i worry that that we could do profound damages where robert f. kennedy might do to america what he did to samoa, as part of his anti-vax road trip and what happened next, regrettably is

predictable. measle his an outbreak, thousands died and 83 -- sorry, thousands were infected and 83 died, the majority of whom were children, and it was kennedy's fault. if we do that in the united states it could be hundreds of thousands. >> are there guardrails in place to prevent kennedy from doing that if he is confirmed? >> those guardrails are best known as republicans in congress, and alex, you and i both know that the storybook with chapters of republican courage against donald trump in congress has very, very few episodes in it. so we need senator bill cassidy who is the chairman of the help committee in the senate which would be vetting robert f. kennedy to make sure an antivaxxer, someone who has improved water to help children and high-speed internet is causing leaky brain syndrome,

somebody who thinks it's not a virus and someone like this does not belong anywhere near the levers of health and human services. >> congressman jake auchincloss, come and see me any time. >> which would be the nominees that will be pushed out. you know it will happen, but who? we are back in 90 seconds.

♪♪ 16 past with the breaking

news, president biden is expected to speak any minute from brazil. he is on what is likely his last foreign trip before leaving office. let's go right to nbc's kelly o'donnell who joins us from rio de janeiro where the president will be heading. it will allow ukraine to strike russia with long-range missiles. tell us about this decision, kelly, and why now? >> well, the white house and the pentagon are not talking about this openly. there is new reporting that's coming from at first "the new york times" talking about a decision in which the president would authorize the use of some u.s.-made weapons given to ukraine to go after certain targets inside russia. that is a -- a significant shift in u.s. policy. of course, since the beginning of the war in ukraine the u.s. has heavily fortified, supplied and supported ukraine with some limitations, specifically not using american-made weapons inside russia to try to contain

the fight to the territory of ukraine and have it be a defensive approach for ukrainians. this would be different. in part, our understanding is that it comes with the development that north korea is providing some of its troops on the ground in ukraine. part of the president being in this part of the world involved in the apec summit and now the g20 about to commence is because he wanted to talk to key leaders that have partnerships like his meeting with president xi of china who has influence over russia and north korea about the war in ukraine. so if this is an effort to try to deal with a specific threat and to give ukraine additional capability, that's what would play out. you can imagine the sensitivities here which is why this is something the white house is not openly discussing. it is reporting that has been done about those with specific sources about what's happening and this is the kind of thing

that often takes more time before the white house or the pentagon speaks about it openly for the obvious sensitivities of war and conflict atplay. now, we can't ignore, of course, it's 60-some days until there is a new administration and incoming president-elect trump has a very different view about what's happening in ukraine and wants to see that resolved quickly. how this could affect that is one of the questions, and does this in any way allow ukraine to better protect itself, fortify certain positions in order to be in a better overall posture for any future discussions, negotiations or next steps about trying to resolve this war? alex? >> okay. kelly o'donnell, thank you so much and we will be keeping an eye out as you will, as well as the president will be speaking shortly. meantime, the longview of matt gaetz and how we got to where we are today.

new reaction today from democrats over president-elect trump's controversial and inexperienced picks for key cabinet positions. democratic lawmakers taking to the sunday talk shows today warning the republican colleagues they'll be remembered for allowing trump's fellow warriors against washington's institutions to serve in the government. >> i understand what happens to republicans who stand up to donald trump, but history is a

hard judge, and a republican senator who takes a vote to consent to the appointment of matt gaetz, a chaos agent, a performative social media no respect for the rule of law individual, the republican senator who votes to confirm matt gaetz or robert kennedy or tulsi gabbard. >> yeah. >> -- will be remembered by history as somebody who completely gave up their responsibility to donald trump. >> joining me now, senior political correspondent for "the wall street journal" molly ball and punch bowl senior congressional reporter and msnbc political contributor melanie zanona. melanie, i'm curious about your take about what is behind trump tapping these controversial people for his cabinet? does he expect them to be confirmed? will republicans be on board with potentially blowing up these more extreme picks? >> alex, i definitely think this will be a loyalty test for the senate republican conference.

he's made a number of these controversial picks, matt gaetz being one of many that come to mind that republicans are deeply skeptical of and have concerns over, but i think a lot of them will be con flicted at the end f the day with their personal feelings about matt gaetz probably one of the most unpopular republicans on capitol hill, versus this feeling that trump just won in this huge election. republicans have what they feel is a mandate to govern, and i think there's going to be very few republicans who actually want to stand in trump's way at the end of the day. now i will say, trump is really flooding the zone with a number of these controversial picks and tulsi gabbard is another one, and rfk, jr., pete hegseth, so there could be some desire for republicans to sort of use their political capital wisely. they're not going to go against every pick perhaps because there are so many controversial nominees. they decided there is one they feel most strongly about and they will try to oppose him, but

right now it's mostly private and in the back growth fund. i believe the republicans will vote for the nominees when they put their name to it. >> are you suggesting sacrificial lamb with matt gaetz, getting him out of the way saying he's too controversial and these others that crop up, we'll let them get through. >> i don't think donald trump is doing that on purpose. i don't think it's a chess move. i think he absolutely wants every one of those members to be in his cabinet and all indications according to my sources in trump world, he is not withdrawing any of the these nominees. that's not to say some of them might fall by the wayside, but i don't think trump is envisioning that some of these people don't end up making it, and i think he'll keep the pressure campaign very high on republicans to get these through. >> molly, you wrote about matt gaetz detailing his trying to oust, and a lot of enmity toward gaetz.

a new nbc news reports many do not see a path for him to get confirmed. any chance he's a recess appointment? >> think mel is exactly right that we have to wait and see and most republicans right now are keeping their powder dry because they want to see what more information is going to come out. they want to see if the house ethics report comes out either publicly or if it is only released to senators for them to peruse, but i think there is definitely going to be an appetite for that information. you know, as mel said, matt gaetz i think might objectively be the most unpopular member of either the house or senate including among his republican colleagues. they remember what he did to kevin mccarthy. he -- many republicans hold him personally responsible for throwing the house into weeks of chaos and pitting republicans against one another so there's not a lot of love lost for matt

gaetz, but the republicans will want to see how all of these nominations play out and what we are hearing publicly from most senators right now is they want to hold the hearings, and they want to do the vetting, and they want to see the information come out first. nobody is going to take a stand right now and say they are or are not going to reject any one of these nominees. we all know that these republican senators are not necessarily, profiles encouraged, when it comes to taking a stand against donald trump and they want to see more information is out there when it gets to the point of having a vote and sort of cross that bridge when they come to it. >> melanie, senators want to see the report. house speaker mike johnson says he is strongly urging against releasing that report. if the house sticks to that it could set up some sort of a constitutional clash between the houses. what kind of chaos could ensue? >> yes. this will be a huge fight, a huge battle in the confirmation

process for matt gaetz. just to explain to viewers here, the house ethics committee is the only internal policing they have, they brought the george santos report which led to its expulsion. it's a secretive panel and a bipartisan panel and they take their jobs seriously and they take these oaths and sign a statement that they're not going to release information unless they reagree on releasing information. even though privately they mate may want that report to be released, so many republicans want that report to be repoliced and they're not going to get out ahead of speaker johnson and not out ahead of donald trump and it would be a betrayal if they were to release the report. some republicans do want to get their hands on the report and there are questions on whether they could have the authority to subpoena the house. everyone i've talked to and some of the experts on capitol hill don't believe they have the authority and there are avenues where this information can come out. don't forget, was there a doj

investigation. they did not bring charges against matt gaetz, but they have some of this information and it could come up. in background checks and a lot of it has been reported publicly through the media. i think we'll get more details about matt gaetz's behavior, just not through that point. >> trump has been defying his transition team and going with his personal choices for cabinet positions. what's your sense of what's going on there? well, during the final weeks of the campaign trump was occupied with the campaign, and so the official transition committee led by howard lutnick and linda mcmahon was assembling a lot of names and putting them together, but everyone knew that trump would have the final say. so he has come back into this process over the last couple of weeks and he's not necessarily happy with all of the names that are being put in front of him. matt gaetz is a perfect example. we know from our reporting that there were a number of other more traditionally qualified

candidates that were passed along to president-elect trump, and he decided to go in a different direction based on what he wants to see out of the department of justice the way that he wants to see that department reformed and changed from the bottom up. so i think everybody has always expected that trump was going to make his own choices and we're just starting to see how unorthodox those choices may be. >> can i just ask each of you to quickly put a candidate on the viewer, which pick, not candidate, melanie, you first. >> oh, man, that's hard. i would say matt gaetz is most likely to fall by the wayside. i don't think it will be willingly. it might be a fight and they'll vote im down on the floor. >> i don't make predictions, but gaetz is the one we're hearing most apprehension about, and i wouldn't sleep on rfk, another, there will be tough questions

for him as well. >> thank you both. good to see you. more on the remarkable breaking news about u.s. missiles in ukraine next. in

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amazon and we wanted to take breaking news before the president arrives. the biden administration has authorized ukraine to use u.s.-supplied long-range missiles to strike russia. this marks a major reversal in u.s. policy. joining me now is retired u.s. army general and msnbc military analyst barry mccaffrey. general, your reaction to the news? >> well, it's good news for the ukrainians who suffered massive casualties trying to protect themselves from this criminal invasion by the russians and now reinforced by 20,000, perhaps, north koresoldiers. i think it's too late to do much effective good, but it's something. >> general, i'm curious, though -- there was reasoning to not allow u.s. military-made weapons, u.s.-made weapons to join this in the beginning of the war to join this assault. there was concern about

retribution for the united states. so how much does this complicate things using now these u.s.-made long-range missiles? does it drag the united states into this war further? >> i don't think so at all. the russians have more than 700,000 killed and wounded. their economy is partially in shambles and they're isolated and their only allies are north korea, china, to an extent and iran. i think we should have gone much more muscular in support of the ukrainians a long time ago. so we'll see how this plays out, but of course, the x factor is president-elect trump, j.d. vance and their announced intent essentially to hand over the war to putin. that's the problem. >> so do you believe that on the heels of that and what could transpire between now and

january 20th and the inauguration, do you believe this helps bring about this helps bring about the end of the war or does it exacerbate this? hold that thought, sir. we will listen to president biden in manaus, brazil. >> -- who turned environmental activist who said the following, and i quote. at first i thought i was fighting to save rubber trees, and then i thought i was fighting to save the amazon rain forest. now i realize i was fighting for humanity. at the time, i was united states senator working with a great republican senator named dick lugar from indiana to enact a new law. the united states would relief other countries of debts owed to us if they commit to protecting their own forest. these debt for nature swaps have since protected nearly 70

million acres of forest worldwide, and today i am proud to be here, the first sitting u.s. president to visit the amazon rain forest to commit to protecting the rain forest like this one. the most powerful solution weise have to fight climate change is all around us. the world's forests, trees breathe carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere, and yet each minute the world is chopping down the equivalent of ten soccer fields worth of forests, each minute. that's why we've been the leader internationally in the fight to end and reverse deforestation by 2030. that's why we led by example at home conserving an area of the u.s. lands and waters larger, larger than the state of the nation of uruguay. we've done it by fighting for

tribal partners, lifting them up, indigenous communities and the most impacted by deforestation and climate change. today's announcement will support indigenous communities to do some of the same here in the amazon. we all know there's much more we can do at home and abroad. that's why today i issued an official proclamation to support the conservation of nature around the world because a fight to protect our planet is literally a fight for humanity for generations to come. maybe the only existential threat to all our nations and to all humanity that exists. with today's proclamation, i am proud to announce first the united states development finance corporation. it will mobilize hundreds of

millions of dollars in partnership with the brazilian company to reforest the amazon. second, we are launching a brazil restoration and bio economy finance coalition to mobilize at least $10 billion by 2030 to store and protect,000 miles of land. third, i'm announcing $50 million to the amazon fund and we've already given 50 million. fourth, we'll provide the funding to help launch president lula's important new initiative, the tropical forest forever fund. it's in the interest of all of us. the united states benefits from that as much as any other country does especially here in brazil. i am also proud to support bipartisan legislation to launch a new foundation for international conservation that would leverage public funds to

mobilize billions more in private capital. the fight against climate change has been a defining cause of my presidency, my administration, first rejoined the paris agreement on climate change. we've launched 150 nations strong, global methane pledge. we delivered a record climate financing to developing countries. we pledge that we would deliver 11 billion per year by 2024. i am meezed to announce today that we not only kept that promise. we surpassed it. back home, i signed the most significant climate change law in history. a law that positions us to cut carbon emissions in half by 2030. this generated $450 billion in new clean energy investments and that's created hundreds of thousands of good-paying jobs

and a manufacturing boom, as well. folks, we don't have to choose between the environment and the economy. we can do both. we've proven it back home. it's no secret that i'm leaving office in january. i will have my -- i will leave my successor and my country with a strong foundation to build on if they choose to do so. it's true, some may seek to deny or delay the clean energy revolution that's under way in america, but nobody, nobody can reverse it. nobody. not when so many people, regardless of party or politics are enjoying its benefits upon not when countriesing are harnessing clean energy revolution to pull up themselves. the question now is which government will stand in the way and which will seize the

enormous economic opportunity? let me close with this, it's often said that the amazon is the lungs of the world. the amazon is the lungs of the world. the wonders are the heart and soul of the world. they unite us. they inspire us, they make us proud of our countries and heritage. a bridge to the past and to our future. a birthright we pass down from generation to generation. the amazon rain forest was built up over 50 million years, 50 million years. history is literally watching us now so let's preserve this sacred place for our time and forever for the benefit of all humanity. thank you very, very much. [ applause ]

all right, everybody. president biden staying exclusively on topic with regard to deforestation and the fight for humanity against climate change and announcing a number of initiatives and billions of dollars -- millions and billions of dollars going to helping fight climate change around the world, and he made the point that you do not have to choose between the environment and the economy and he said that he has set the world up and this country up for the next administration to see what they will do with it, and he was quite proud of his accomplishments. >> general, i know we were talking about the breaking news and the long-range missiles now. the united states made missiles going into being authorized for use by ukraine going into russia now, but i wanted to ask you about another story that was quite remarkable and it is also another nbc news exclusive, this one about the trump transition team that is compiling a list of military officers involved in the withdrawal from afghanistan

possibly for courts marshall. does this plan sound plausible, does it sound even viable to you? how easy would it be for someone to implement this? >> well, i think legally, it's impossible to imagine anything like this happening. retired military could be brought back to active duty if some criminal offense committed while they were in uniform, but the bottom line to the withdrawal from afghanistan is mr. trump ran for office saying he wanted out of afghanistan. he drew down the troop presence, 2500 troops, unsustainable, great danger. the afghans immediately said these guys are gone. when president biden was elected he then ended the presence with the predictable outcome that the thing came apart, but that withdrawal, i might add was

brilliant. 100,000 afghans ran for the exit and got out of there. there were seven elite battalions on the ground, army rangers, marine infantry, we got out of their by the skin of our teeth. it was a legitimate, presidential decision by trump that brought the end of the campaigns in afghanistan. so blaming it on the chairman of the jcf who has no command authority at all. they that's the commander in chief and the secretary of defendant. those were trump and the secretary of defense. >> all right, general mccaffrey. i want to should you for ironing that out for us and thank you very much, sir, for waiting for prdz's speech in manau, brazil. will they or won't they? will they allow matt gaetz?

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another new addition to donald trump's cabinet to report, report oil industry ceo chris wright. he is a staunch defender of fossil fuels and has denied there is a climate crisis. both democratic and republican senators gearing up for confirmation hearings for several controversial picks and joining me now is former representative from florida, carlos curbelo and shaiqua. when trump said he would be a dictator, quote, only on day one. one of the things he wanted to do on that day was order more drilling. some of these other picks have had more shock value, but how much could this set back gains

and renewable energy, the irony being we are talking about this on the heels of president biden doing something no other sitting u.s. president has ever done, gone to tour the amazon rain forest. >> yeah. excuse me. thank you for having me, alex. i think it will set us back pretty far and the contradictions with someone who led up a fracking company, i think we have to think about the fact that donald trump just wants to inflict revenge. so i think the inflation reduction act is going to be one of the first bills he looks to pick apart and this pick in the cabinet secretary is one of the ways he'll be able to do that. you know, someone who does not believe in climate change is not going to prioritize the things that are important for this country, but you know, i think back to election day where i think it was 80 degrees. it should not be 80 degrees in november, but it's only going to get worse because we will not have a government in place who

will ioritize addressing that problem. >> carlos, do you get the sense that the cabinet picks are the antithesis of the departments they will lead or have no experience in the department what so ever? is this what you expected or did you expect more traditionally, qualified nominees? >> well, in this second trump term, alex, this is what we expected that donald trump would choose people who are loyal to him and who have similar views than he does and sure, some of these cabinet secretaries, potential cabinet secretaries in some cases have argued for significantly diminishing or dismantling these departments. now i remind people, although these positions are very powerful, departments and budgets are ultimately passed by congress, and require 60 votes in the united states senate. so i think you're going to see some of these cabinet secretaries, if they get confirmed pushing the envelope, but at the end of the day they're going to need some kind of bipartisan consensus on the

hill to advance their agendas. >> shaniqua, trump's deputy communications director posted this picture we are going to show and it is of trump and notably robert f. kennedy, jr., of course his pick for secretary of health and human services, look what they're eating, some mcdonald's and drinking a coke. it's shocking for rfk who wants to get rid of food additives and preservatives, but i do want to note rfk of all of the terrible junk and fast food out there he said that mickey ds and kfc chicken are the least bad of the bad? so i'm just saying that. bottom line, though, does this undermine the argument that his motivation is truly health? >> yeah. i think it does. i'm not going to disparage mcdonald's. i still eat mcdonald's i almost ordered it last night, but i think someone who has come to the forefront because they really care about health and is is sitting there doing that

speaks to the fact he doesn't care about all of this. he just wants to dismantle government and he's taken a liking to donald trump, and he's probably happy that donald trump likes him and he's just doing whatever he can to continue to carry favor with him, you know, to have someone who does not believe in vaccines lead hhs is scary, you know? if he makes that decision what's to stop him from saying medicare and medicaid? you can't cover vaccinations? i don't think there is a bottom to this hole, and you know, again, he's made comments about big pharmaceutical companies and big agriculture companies, having too much of a say in the things that we are consuming through our food and medicines, but again, i'd be really concerned by, you know, someone deregulating and increasing our ability to be harmed by these things. >> in terms of the anti-vax situation and beyond, carlos, the former chief counsel for the fda said there may not be massive changes because trump and rfk loyalists, they may not

have the technical expertise to change the rules. i mean, is that the best we can hope for, that some of these picks in their staff could be too incompetent to accomplish their goals? >> well, look, i think in the case of rfk, alex, at least he did give that interview to nbc news where he recognized that he was not going to limit vaccine use or in his words, take away anyone's vaccines. i do think, and it's interesting because this was a controversial pick at first, but i think there's growing interest in the country in terms of the vaccine side of the ledger where obviously rfk has a checkered history, right? but on food and nutrition, i think a lot of people are interested to see how someone like him might be able to shake things up because obviously, it's a major challenge for our country. we all know the obesity statistics in our country. so at first i thought the pick

was fairly controversial and outlandish, but as time has passed, i think there's growing interest to see what someone like rfk could contribute in this space. >> i guess we will wait and see. carlos and shaniqua, thank you for your time. i apologize on the brevity. you can blame it on president trump -- president biden, not quite president trump, not until january 20th. thanks, guys. in the next hour we'll talk to tim o'brien about his latest piece. trump is casting a superhero movie with b-list actors.