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with a sexual misconduct allegation, a tattoo that led to or proceeded a hasty exit from military service and a litany of eyebrow raising statements, donald trump's picked to head the department of defense seems to be drowning in scandal. and that's before confirmation hearings ever get underway. on sunday, an attorney for pete hegseth confirmed that he paid a woman after she accused him of sexual assault saying this in a statement, in 2023, he paid the complaint and as part of a civil confidential settlement agreement and maintains his innocence. the statement comes after the washington post reported this, quote, a detailed memo was sent to the trump transition team this week by a woman who said she is a friend of the accuser. the memo, a copy of which was obtained by the post, alleged he the than 30-year-old conservative group staffer in

his room after drinking at the hotel bar. nbc news has not obtained the memo sent to the trump team. none of this, though, deterring donald trump. the new york times citing two people briefed on the discussion that he is standing by pete hegseth reports this, quote, trump made his view plane to aids after a conversation with pete hegseth days ago, after the team learned a woman had accused him of assault in 2017. also learning more about an episode that pete hegseth has spoken about before, his removal from a mission by the d.c. national guard at joe biden's inauguration. he described the story on a podcast a few weeks ago. >> i was deemed an extremist because of a tattoo by my national guard unit in washington, d.c. and my orders were revoked to guide the biden administration. cross tattoo, it's just a christian symbol. this is what got me disinvited

or i never had odors -- orders revoked before. >> the reporting in the post actually cast doubt on that, on hegseth's version of events. they said it was not the cross tattoo but another one of his tattoos that set off alarm bells in military circles the day after the january 6th insurrection, from that reporting, quote, travis akers then a naval intelligence officer told the washington post that he looked further and spotted a close-up image that hegseth posted of his bicep months earlier that clearly shows the words deus valt, akers found was a christian battle cry from the first crusade in the middle ages. god wills it, though the phrase remains in use among some ordinary christians, especially catholics, akers said his research so that it had become popular with the

proud boys, three percenters and other extremist groups that participated in the siege at the capital. akers posted the photos to twitter which led the d.c. national guard's head of physical security to warn that hegseth could be an insider threat, adding this, as he was about to be deployed, he received a call ordering him to stand down. >> according to hegseth, his removal from the mission shaped his views of the military. he has cited the episode in asserting that the -- during riots at home following the death of george floyd have become dangerously woke, he did not respond to the washington post when they sought comments. donald trump's nominee to leave the department of defense, bogged down by his past statements and record is where

we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans of america, all right off his back plus politico national correspondent and msnbc contributor, betsy woodruff swan is back and former democratic senator, claire mccaskill is here. let me start with you on the body of reporting shaping up, i think that what people who watch him might have seen, was sort of maybe, if they have an affinity for the affable anti- woke genre, this reporting seems to at least deepen that caricature and that he is someone who was cast out of service on the day of joe biden's inauguration, because of a leak that he could be an insider threat. take me inside that threat of reporting? >> what's important to know

here, of course, is the concerns regarding hegseth came from his fellow soldiers, it came from the unit that he was part of, the national guard, an organization, they believe that this tattoo he had, they were convinced that it was a symbol that he could pose a threat going into the presidential inauguration. what's also important to remember is that none of this is going to have any impact whatsoever on trump's support for his nominee. anything that people argue related to hegseth, the news that's coming forward that without a doubt , is raising concerns more broadly about the way that he would leave the defense department. none of that will change his view because it points to the fact that hegseth embodies trump himself, and the goals that trump would have for the military, the fact that he's been accused of sexual assault,

that won't slow down from, he himself, of course, faces those same accusations, the fact that he's accused of playing foot seas with extreme rhetoric, that won't slow down trump, either, and the story involving trump and hegseth is a microcosm of the shift that we are seeing going into the second trump term in comparison to his first time in office. at this time, 2016 and 2017, trump was building out a cabinet that included some people from the national security establishment who were very much seen as normal, typical, we are talking about people like jim mattis, john kelly and shortly after trump was inaugurated, also hr mcmaster who of course placed his first security advisor michael flynn who was removed in part, because of very troubling connections that he had, criminal activity that he was engaged in. now, it is so, so different. right from the jump, trump is

filling his cabinet with people who very much channel his instincts, channel his political goals and his policy goals, and, after his inauguration will be ready to hit the ground running doing whatever trump wants to see done on the part of these department and agencies to advance his goals and of course, if hegseth is confirmed, the number 1 thing to watch for is how he instructs the department to cooperate with trump's hopes of mass deportation. and of course, trump sees hegseth as a keeper with that plan. >> i have no doubt that this probably raises his stock in trump's view but that is not the issue, i mean, the military can't function if it turns on itself, and i wonder what the placement of someone like hegseth, a top dod, does to the

military. >> it crushes morale and creates conservation and impacts recruiting and retention. but that is a part, what they want to do. i mean -- >> why? >> pete hegseth is a culture warrior, he's an effective culture warrior and trump is sending him to the pentagon to wage war on the pentagon. he said woke is and is the problem but that's not the problem, military sexual assault is, and extremism is, and even if he has no associations, even if he's innocent, this looks terrible and it should be disqualifying, he's being nominated for a position that used to be occupied with republicans like bob gates >> cheney, and chuck hagel, can you imagine if chuck hagel have these tattoos and accused of these things, he would be disqualified. moderate republicans like mitt romney and susan collins and others will have to decide, is this an acceptable level of risk to impose on 2.7 million people who work at the pentagon

and inside the defense department. >> my question, i want to press you on the sexual assault allegations. you've got reporting in the post and your times, and a police report from monterey, you've got a confirmed rape result, you've got a letter sent to the transition team and it's clear that the like let's just keep this in maga world, it's clear that the trump transition team felt blindsided by this. what is the implication for the military and for the military's ability to root out and protect women and men in the department if that person is and accused assaulter? >> this is the command climate that trump has created. now, he is placing people who are going to echo that kind of climate, these are all chips off the old block, that's true

across the board and is also got a radical pick for the va secretary, so they will be bookend, attacking the dod and the va, in the middle but keep in mind, we've that women in combat right now, they are deployed in places like syria and around the world and they have to trust the people who leave them and how can we honestly trust a person like this with this many allegations and more important, a person who says, he wants them out of combat roles, we can talk about his personal issues but the policy issues are important. he wants to remove women from combat roles while they are actively serving in combat roles. our enemies will celebrate. glamour putin, north korea, they love to see this kind of disruption in our military. >> let me show you some of his again, public broadcast on jen seventh -- january 7th.

>> these folks on the lawn and there were more that i've seen, these are not conspiracy theories, motivated by lies, that's nonsense. these are people that understand freedom and they love free markets and they see exactly what the anti-american left has done to america, indoctrinating our kids, canceling individuals, all the double standards that exist in our country right now. >> my first that was he knew a lot about the insurrectionists on the 7th, it took the department of justice years to learn all of that about the people who were there but this idea that insurrection is justifiable because quote the anti-american left has done this to america, indoctrinating our kids, opening our borders, totally censoring entire viewpoints, all the double standards that exist right now. i understand what he's saying, that makes him maybe better than the actual sons in trump's view but how does that impact

the united states military? >> it's an interesting moment, we have somebody who's been elected president, who, instead of trying to find people who are competent and qualified to run some of the largest and most complex organizations in the world, keep in mind the department of defense is almost $1 trillion budget. 3 million personnel around the globe, all kinds of complexities that are involved in understanding you know, not just who is woke and who isn't woke, and by the way, taking down dei does not make anything happen in terms of military readiness, it doesn't make any difference going forward, so, what trump has done instead of finding really good, competent people, he's found people that will tear down these institutions. not build them up, not run

them, not make them work for the american people. but he is convinced and he's convinces voters that the way forward is to tear down the institutions of america, that protect them. the military, law enforcement, that's what he has done, and that's what this guy says he's going to do and by the way, i can't wait until he talks to the israeli defense minister about women in combat. there's a woman battalion in the israeli army that took on hamas extremists in october of 2023. these women took out 100 hamas militants in battle. i can't wait for him to lecture israel about how woke they are where women are required to serve in the military and they been serving on the front lines since israel was born. >> yeah, i mean, the contradictions, you can almost hear the interview already,

well not those women but just the woke ones, i want to follow- up with you, claire, on the allegations of sexual assault. this is the new york times reporting about the memo sent to the trump transition team. the memo said the woman who was referred to as jane dell, was 30 at the time and was working for the organizers of a conference in california where hegseth spoke. he said that he was with two women at a bar after his speech when jane received a text from the women saying that hegseth was getting pushy about taking them upstairs to his room. jane went over to try to mitigate the situation, the memo says, the two other women left and from that moment on, the memo said, jane did not remember anything until she was in hegseth's hotel room and she had only hazy memories of being there and stumbling back to her room. the next day, she had a quote, moment of hazy memory of being raped.

pete hegseth's lawyer said it was consensual . claire, your thoughts? >> well my first thought is the fact that he didn't reveal this to the transition team in this process that says mountains about his judgment. how do you be considered for this particular job and not reveal that, at the point and time that you are being interviewed. the fact that this blindsided the trump transition team tells you all you need to know about this guys character, not good. that is not what you expect from someone who is leading a defense department where you're asking men and women to die for their country and you can't bother to explore the fact that you paid off someone to stay quiet about a sexual encounter. and the idea that he is now trying to trash this woman, why

did he pay her? why did he pay her off? that makes no sense. so, it is really unfortunate that we are where we are. now i'm with my friend paul here, i think there will be, especially on the armed services committee, you've got rounds, you've got deb fisher, you've got joni ernst, who served, you've got tammy duckworth who lost her leg flying a black hawk helicopter in combat you've got a lot of members on the arms service committee that knows it's a bad idea. so hopefully, they will cut this off at the pass but it tells you a lot they haven't pulled the nomination. >> it's interesting, to your first point, i mean, trump is down with the dirtiest dirt on everybody, trump picked matt gaetz, so why would hegseth have not been upfront with them and it was interesting about the hegseth settlement is that

bill riley's career ended at fox but hegseth is tapped to run the pentagon. >> what we don't know for sure is the extent to which hegseth and trump could have possibly discussed this issue, i don't know, i don't want to speculate but the transition team is a large and sprawling organization and it wouldn't necessarily be a surprise that a revelation like this would come as a shock, too many people working on the team but perhaps would receive a different reception from trump himself. again, this is not clear based on my conversations and the reporting that's out the -- there. these allegations, i can't think of any examples when

they've changed trump's view or commitment to the people working for him, so many of the men who trump has installed in senior positions are brought to work near him have faced allegations of sexual harassment or other types of sexual wrongdoing and it hasn't proven to be a deterrent for their careers when trump is the one deciding where they are going to be installed, of course, the huge outstanding question is, how does the senate republican conference grapple with all of this, does a new leader, john thune, does he decide that this is a bridge too far, or does he put hegseth in the same category as the supreme court justice kavanagh, that despite allegations of sexual assault, he was confirmed for that lifetime position. i would frankly, i think hegseth is more likely to be confirmed that some of the other people that trump has put forward and senate republicans will be having conversations among themselves, regarding which of these numerous, numerous controversial cabinet pics that trump has brought to them, are they going to view as

a bitter pill to swallow versus which ones are they going to put their feet down, and i think hegseth will be in the first category. >> rob porter i think the only person accused by two spouses of spousal abuse that has seem to have parted ways with trump. paul and claire, stick around. when we come back, house speaker mike johnson working overtime to keep the report into his now former colleague, matt gaetz, secret. why? speaker johnson is one of the few who think it should not be disqualifying for america's attorney general and later donald trump showing no sign of backing away from his day one

promise to deport millions and millions of migrants in the u.s. he says he will do so, using the united states military. how that's being received today and much more when deadline: white house continues after very quick break. don't go anywhere. swiffer duster traps 4x more dust, for a clean even mom approves of. that reach! making hard to reach... so easy. swiffer. wow. the mother of all cleans. love it or your money back! >> woman: why did we choose safelite? we're always working the moon a project.leans. while loading up our suv, one extra push and... crack! so, we scheduled at safelite.com.

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said the house ethics committee released that report, senator? >> absolutely, and i believe the senate should have access to that. i have no doubt that president trump believes that matt gaetz is the person to do the job but at the same time, the background of matt gaetz does matter, and the decisions that

the senate makes has to be within our boundaries of constitutional authority that we have and we will do our due diligence there. >> that was republican senator mark wayne mullen joining the calls for the house ethics committee to relate -- released its report on its own investigation into donald trump picked to be the countries attorney general, matt gaetz. the ethics committee is now set to meet on wednesday to discuss the gaetz report, the former congressman was being investigated for allegations including sexual misconduct involving a 17-year-old girl, unless it drug use and accepting improper gifts. while many republican members of congress including the ranking member of the senate judiciary committee, have called for the report to be released, house speaker johnson despite his notorious, socially conservative views including pushing legislation to lock up abortion providers calling for sex to be criminalized in seeking to and common forms of

birth control appear to draw the line at getting to the bottom of whether or not the potential attorney general of the united states sex trafficked a minor. johnson saying that he would quote, strongly request the committee not release the report. joining our conversation, capitol hill correspondent ali vitali, and political analyst tim miller. what's amazing to me is how interested marjorie taylor greene and others were in hunter biden's and sex life and how totally different they are to matt gaetz? >> that's one parallel, the other is, i've been surprised by the number of people who are

consistent in saying that they don't think this person will be senate confirmed when the question i have as we head into the next congress is, is this the battle that senate republicans want to have first, with the incoming president of the united states from their party? it's the same people who were crowing about trump being elected in a landslide and having a mandate who are also then going to try to push forward on key agenda points on the border, energy, taxes and other issues but who that might be the people who stand independently to say no this can't be the attorney general? i think that's what we don't know yet, is where the senate is going to draw the line and if they still value that advice and consent role that they are meant to play. i had one member of congress say to me in the last few minutes that they think gaetz nomination is a dead man walking and even if the committee doesn't put the report out, eventually it will make its way in the public anyway. i think the thing that republicans have shown us time and again is this is a body,

this is a party, this is a congress that is republican majority and republican majority remade in trump's image. why republicans would pick this as their fight and are they actually going to be willing to do that? >> tim miller, i think we can answer both those questions for those republicans, matt gaetz, you know, some way or another will be the attorney general, the point is to humiliate the senate republicans. the point is to have them vote for someone -- let me just share the fights that he's currently engaged in. mark wayne mullen, senator from oklahoma who we just played, gaetz called him a disgrace to the republican party. gaetz mocked senator elect john curtis of utah as mitt romney without good hair and he called mitch mcconnell dangerous and cheered his retirement from leadership., gaetz suggested tom tillis , i

could go on and on, but the point is, trump's point is to make foals out of the senate republicans, and i actually think strategically, they should get the report out, so that there's nothing to come out later to look -- make them look more for us. he will get this job because trump wants him to. >> i think it's very insightful reporting as usual from , you see reports from the hill there like, anonymously, half of the republican senators don't want matt gaetz to be attorney general it's like okay, well where are they, let's hear from them, you know, if they're not going to vote for him, no better time than the present to help the president elect move on from his dead on arrival ., and so, i don't really buy it. i think a lot of them don't

want to have to vote for him which is why you saw rick scott over the weekend talk about how there will be recess appointments. i think if you are putting yourself in the head of these republicans, to get in that cowardly space but the win-win situation for them is not having to deal with the matt gaetz thing at all, not having to vote to put their stamp of approval but letting them get through because they don't want to fight with trump. and, you know, i agree with you, i think they should get the ethics report out and i think it will come out, and what i don't really understand, the whole thing, this whole conventional wisdom is so silly, these people on the hill say matt gaetz is not going to get through, but pete hegseth is? what's the difference between matt gaetz and pete hegseth. they both have private issues, very serious accusations in their personal lives, they are

both unqualified, pete has never been elected to anything, he was a weekend talk show host until about two minutes ago, so the only rationale is that people don't like matt gaetz because he was mean to them but that's a -- >> none of this is normal, none of this is acceptable and none of it is inevitable. actually think trump has made a miscalculation by nominating so many of them really, somebody like hegseth, he got nominated a month ago, it could be two months before he has hearings and there are plenty of evil in the media and in congress who are going to start to try and hold the line, at least i hope, for some semblance of ethics and integrity especially around

institutions like the pentagon -- >> but what is that look like, i take your point and trump hates bad press, that's his standard for everything, i mean what is your sense of what it would take to tank either of those nominations? >> we have no idea what is yet to come and i think that's important. it's clear how many people hate gaetz, even within his own party so trump is creating a fight that maybe he didn't have to happen i think he's also just trying to where everybody out. an end has talked about flooding the zone. so i think it's a test for democracy, for the press, for the republican party. i think there are people in there who still care about ethics and our institutions -- >> who? >> maybe mitt romney, susan collins, i don't know who that person will be but i think especially around the pentagon, they understand how serious that is. they need to recognize we have

two more months to go for them to further disqualify themselves and they are trying to where america out, that's what he's wanting to do, he wants america to just throw up the white flag and say oh, we are okay, no, this is not normal and it's a national security risk and let's remind everybody this is a legitimate national security risk. >> i agree with you on the substance but i guess on year nine, i have never seen republicans, i mean mcconnell went to the well of the senate and said trump was guilty of everything for which he was impeached and i will do nothing. >> there are plenty of whistleblowers yet to come, jane doe may speak out, we held our breath for people like mattis and kelly and others to speak out against trump i think this is more personal, some people have personal issues with hegseth and gaetz, and revenge can be a mother, right, there are plenty of people who want a piece of matt gaetz and they want people to see it.

>> ali, thank you for your reporting. we want to get claire and on this but we will sneak in a quick break. we will be right back. right ba. metamucil gummies the easy way to get your daily fiber. your shipping manager left to "find themself." leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. sponsored jobs on indeed are two and a half times faster to first hire. visit indeed.com/hire big news for mahomes! i'm switching to iphone 16 at t-mobile! it's built for apple intelligence. that's like peanut butter on jelly... on gold. get four iphone 16s on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving away too fast t-mobile, slow down.

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those who were directly involved in the withdrawal from afghanistan and exploring whether they could be court- martial for their involvement. according to a u.s. official any person familiar with the plan, officials working on the transition are considering creating a commission to investigate the 2021 withdrawal from afghanistan including gathering information about who was directly involved in the decision-making for the military, how it was carried out and whether the military leaders could be eligible for charges as serious as treason. your thoughts? >> well, probably the worst thing we've talked about today, i think. by the way, though, they can take a shortcut, they could just go back and read what trump agreed to from negotiating this deal, trump is the one who said there will be a date certain of withdrawal. trump was the one who frankly, facilitated the release of many of the taliban, that did the damage during the withdrawal.

i mean, it was trump. he did that. he was the one, who dictated the withdrawal from afghanistan. it didn't happen under joe biden. so, that will be an interesting part of whatever thing they get up in terms of looking into it. maybe, i am still holding onto some kind of sliver of unrealistic hope, but i will tell you this about the confirmation of all of these guys. these republicans aren't going to say no until they have to. if this ethics report comes out and it's as damning as it's rumored to be in terms of republicans saying this is unacceptable, then that gives them cover. they do not have to oppose trump's nominee, the nominee is withdrawn or the nominee decides not to pursue. so they are not going to come out and say that they are voting no on any of these until

the process plays out because, we do know this about them, they are always looking for political cover from directly confronting trump. i don't think though, when it comes down to it, that there will be a lack of 4 to 5 members to say no, particularly to matt gaetz. >> the story about court- martial's. i understand that it's very much on the table. we know from mark esper's book that trump wanted to do it to general crystal and admiral, there were bulwarks against it. i understand from all of our conversations that what is radical about hegseth and trump 2.0 is that by design, the guardrails are gone. just take me inside the state of play and anxiety inside the pentagon. >> trump telegraphs his

punches. he tells you what he's going to do and that he usually doesn't or he tries to do it and he has telegraphed his punches about removing the guardrails at the pentagon since he was talking about firing millie and brown and all the people and now he's in a position to do that. he's telling us what he's going to do and we should respect that that is what he wants to do and he wants to empower people to execute that strategy and even if he doesn't, the chilling effect is tremendous. right now there are people in the pentagon saying, am i going to get fired and if i get fired, how do i pay my bills, if i lose my retirement, how do i keep my family safe, this is a very real conversation among senior leaders at the pentagon and he's not going to say they are not loyal, he will take something like the afghanistan withdrawal and try and use that as a lever to identify people that he can remove the other way. it's all exceptionally serious. there's nothing that someone like putin would love more is

to remove an entire crop of leadership from the pentagon in a time when the u.s. is engaged around the world. >> how can people protect them? this is an example of where the citizens will have to rally, if they fire a bunch of people at the pentagon, people have to do what trump supporters have done for work criminals, raise legal funds, create legal defenses, pr teams, a political operation to help these people and their families make the case to the american people, protect their benefits and their jobs and if they lose them, they need a place to land, they need a place to get a paycheck, while this political storm continues to churn all around them. it's a possibility that he could remove people who have done nothing wrong and they can get removed. >> if you want to talk about court-martial in, he's also talking about taking their retirement.

not just kick them out but take their retirement, their stability and their livelihood and that will move some people closer to him because they want to cover their butt and that's why this is so troubling and it should be a priority, maybe above all else. >> i need all of you to stick around. up next around here, who didn't see this coming, president- elect trump choosing not to listen to his advisors when it comes to his cabinet picks. we will bring you the new reporting, next. reporting, next. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems or other eosinophilic conditions. allergic reactions may occur. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens. headache and sore throat may occur. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. step back out there with fasenra. ask your doctor if it's right for you. (children speaking)

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we are showing him listen 10 to 12 people for every position. we do have backup plans but we are obviously going with the strongest candidates first. >> it's good to know that they are quote not just names out of a hat, but is he sure? according to new reporting, that seems to be exactly what's unfolding with a number of donald trump's most prominent and alarming cabinet picks, washington post reporting that trump won the election with a unified senior team that had brought some order and a decision-making process to the campaign, but the structure eroded in the days after his november fifth victory now beholden to trump's winds, some involved in trump's decision- making process telling the post

this, names are being thrown out all over the place, there really isn't a functional process. it's really whoever he just decides to name. we are back with him, claire and paul. tim, this is where it's both and, it's both strategically designed to make folks at the military that paul was talking about and folks in the media and folks in the justice department scared, and it is chaos for chaos sake. what is your sense, both the phenomenon and the effort to sort of report, this was an exquisite repeat -- reporting piece, i think 15 sources. >> it's a 2017 flashback. this is one of those situations where those of us on the outside can sometimes see trump more clearly than the people around him, the power of rationalization, the chair of the transition, going on with caitlin collen saying elon musk

won't be in the government, rfk won't be at hhs, wrong, wrong. the team that is supposed to be in charge of this, can't control him, and when you build everything around the cult of a personality, then you are subject to that person's win. let started annoying trump, these are not the things you heard about in the budget, the boss want somebody who's more fun to hang with in a golf cart but that's what you get with trump. there are some elements that are strategic, and the chilling effect is one, and he is specifically peeking people that he thinks will annoy the career officials that is a plus

when he's looking for people because he wants people to leave the government voluntarily. this court marshaling story, out of the reason they are leaking is because they want people who are worried to just leave, people that are willing to go along with whatever matt gaetz wants to do, to just quit, so i think it support for the career officials that are in there right now, to stay and to know that that is part of the psychological plan they are putting forward. >> it's such a good point, and on that, i will read this from nbc news, multiple current and former officials have begun reaching out to lawyers, that's according to three people with knowledge of their deliberations. i mean, claire, this played out in shocking public view in the first term with the effort to indict mccabe, the efforts to investigate jim comey, the

harassment of lisa page, this played out in a trumpian manner in the first term but it's been solidly reporting that this will be operationalized in a second term. steve bannon is on his podcast, taunting msnbc producers. he's done it a couple of times. the retribution at the pentagon is something that paul ryan cough has described as creating a real sense of deep and abiding fear, being targeted for their roles in renaming basis or the withdrawal from afghanistan. the fear is the point. i wonder your thoughts on the doj, is the agency in charge of crime? most offices have a direct tie

to all crimes from drug cartels to sex trafficking to gang violence. trump needs these agencies to function. and i wonder where or if you think there is any tension between paralyzing these agencies with fear and meeting them to function to carry out trump's agenda? >> you know, it's really easy in some ways, dangerous for me to sit here and say to career employees, stand strong, don't be afraid, keep your head down, do your job. have faith that the laws of this country will protect you from what these people might try to do. because, it's really important that people do that, capitulation is not the answer you know, walking away in fear, from a career that you should be proud of, and these people have a right to be proud of their careers. trump doesn't know these people, i do.

i know some lifelong employees at the department of justice, and they are amazing people who don't care about d or r, they don't care about politics, they care about the law. so i implore them not to walk away and know that if they come after people without merit, there are laws in place to protect them and i think there will be legal funds to protect them as well. >> thank you all for keeping it real. great to see all of you. another break for us. we will be right back. right ba. to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. most plans include the humana healthy options allowance. a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't

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election denier and two-time loser, kari lake, settled a year long defamation case brought against her by stephen richer, the lifelong republican swept into conspiracy theory surrounding election officials. the suit claimed she defamed him when she refused to concede her 2022 arizona gubernatorial defeat and alleged fraud in that election. richard sued in his personal capacity seeking a public acknowledgment that many statements against him were untrue as well as damages and attorneys fees. the details of the settlement are confidential, but richer telling "the washington post" via text this, quote. both sides are satisfied with the result. lake, for her part, still has not conceded to senator-elect gallego for the election she lost this time, though she has not contested her loss either. instead, she spent her weekend

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already working on a plan. i'll be going down to mar-a-lago this week to put the final touches on the plan. we're going to take the handcuffs off i.c.e. we have plenty of targets. i.c.e. know who is they are. we'll do the job, secure the country, protect the american communities and arrest the bad guys first. >> hi, again, everyone. according to donald trump's incoming border czar, tom homan, the quote final touches on the mammoth immigration crackdown plans are coming together this week. final touches that could include what trump confirmed on social media in the early morning hours today when he reposted a post that said his administration is quote, prepared to declare a

national emergency and will use military asset, end quote, to carry out his mass deportation program. his repost included an enthusiastic true, with three exclamation points. what trump confirmed there is a very serious departure and escalation in his plan to deport the approximately 11 million people who are in our country lisle lelly right now, to which ruben gallego said this. >> look, i don't think the people of arizona or americans in general want to replace the chaos at the border with chaos in our communities. the idea that soldiers will be carrying these deportations out, one, it's not used to something we're seeing. two, you will really diminish the scope and the trust people have for our military forces when they're being used against u.s. citizens, potentially, too.

let's not forget we have a lot of mixed families. >> during his first term, donald trump declared a national emergency to get more funding for his wall. joe biden ended that when he came into office. this time, the incoming administration is bracing for even more legal challenges. new reporting finds this, quote, trump's team is already thinking about how to craft executive actions aimed to withstand the legal challenges from immigrants rights groups. all in hopes of avoiding an early defeat like the one in 2017 with the travel ban targeting muslim nations. these fights will be refereed by a federal judiciary that he transformed including by appointing more than 200 federal judges. at the top, the ultimate decider of these questions is the supreme court to which he appointed three conservative

justices. he has already installed immigration hard liners in key positions willing to carry out his plans. people like kristi noem, head of department of homeland security, and tom homan. the letter to being key players in the utterly cruel family separation policy enacted then canceled, reversed by donald trump himself, during his first term. it's where we start the hour with jacob joining us by phone. author and executive producer of separated. also joining us, retired marine corp. lieutenant colonel founder of democratic majority action pack. and with me here, distinguished political scholar and professor at princeton, eddie glaude. jacob, let me first ask you if any of this is a surprise to you

or if this is what has been telegraphed at the convention and project 2025. >> from the moment that i reported live with you from the floor of the republican convention as thousands of people held up those mass deportation signs, just like with family separation, you know, i learned to believe that the administration and i spent yesterday afternoon, you mentioned immigration activists and attorneys and members of civil society that fought back and stopped the policy. yesterday at a screening of separated in l.a., i was with dozens of them and this is what they expect to happen. what they've been planning to happen and they don't relish what they see as a fight coming ahead, but they are prepared for it. what i will tell you is if the military indeed is going to be involved as is being intimated by homan and president-elect trump and other, some of the same concerns we saw during the

family separation policy are going to be front and center. a lot of these facility that house children at the border as well as the ones that house the adults, are overseen by licensed, state regulatory agencies. specifically relating to children, if they take those facilities and put them on federal land, it takes away the ability to oversee child health and safety regulations and other oversight of that nature that a state licensing organization would otherwise do. i know that's front and center amongst many other concerns about how it will affect the well-being of these children. after they had taken them away, torture was the word they used, government sanctioned child abuse was how the american academy of academy of pediatrics described it. >> let me read this reporting to

you and ask you if the blowback to family separation has any relation to ending birthright citizenship. this is from nbc's reporting in july. in may of last year, trump released a campaign video renewing his call saying he would sign an executive order on day one of his presidency that would ensure that children born to parents without legal status in the united states will not be considered u.s. citizens. litigation is a certainty according to a lawyer at the american civil liberties union, who was also involved in the travel ban challenge. quote, it is dregtly in the teeth of the 14th amendment. it would be an attempt to tear down a core constitutional protection that's been a key part of our country. you take the promises to start on day one. you take the blowback, the rare

reversals as you pointed out to child separation. is this, is eliminating birthright citizenship the work around? >> it seems to be one of them. i was with the extraordinary journalist who literally wrote the book on stephen miller called hate monger. i recommend you pick it up if you want to understand the incoming administration. i do think that you know, family separation was as you said, the rare policy reversal in the first trump term because president-elect trump was essentially forced into saying what he said in the oval office in the signing ceremony in june 2018 as kisen nielsen stood over his shoulder after she put it into place. he said i didn't like the sight and feeling of families being

separated. they know how not only the american public reacted in a bipartisan fashion, but basically universally how people around the world spoke out a it has trump administration separated children from their parents at the southern border. i think what they would like to do, forget about what i think. one thing i've said they want to do is institute the largest mass deportation program in the history of the country. they know what it meant in the first term and how they had to react to it. how the global public reacted. how the pope reacted. and if birthright citizenship was to be eliminated, they wouldn't have to do what tom homan suggested, which would be basically suggest american citizen children leave the country with their undocumented parents. there are as many as 20 million people in households with an undocumented family member living in this country that all are in our schools, our homes, places of work. our churches. communities. our neighbors. our are friends.

and obviously, this is a very central focus. a large project. and a stated goal of the incoming administration. >> jacob, thank you for joining us. by phone and starting us off this hour. amy, let me show you what the man in charge of this project, the border czar, tom homan, said on fox earlier. >> so i've been asked a thousand times, how many people can you remove the first year? well, how many agents do we have? can we bring retired agents back? how many buses? how much money for airplanes? can dod assist? there's a lot of what ifs. i don't know the current budget. i don't have insight on what i.c.e. has for budget. president trump's committed to whatever he can to get us the money we need. >> because dod can take it off our plate. what does that look like and what does that do to the

military? >> well, the fact of the matter is there aren't enough border patrol agents to do what trump wants. you would have to use the military and you know, this, a core tenant of american democracy is that we don't use our military against american civilians. you know, a part of this is if you're using the u.s. military to go in and take out potentially take family members from u.s. citizens, it's a huge problem. what happens when there's resistance? does the u.s. military then fire upon our own citizens? does u.s. military fire upon civilians if there's resistance? the united states military should never be used as like a gestapo and that is where we're headed. many of us did some exercises on what trump would do on the first day and it was very, very

sobering. it will rip the military apart because it's not in our nature to turn our forces. we're not trained for it. our guns should not be turned on to american citizens and those people living here. >> i'm just going to ask you to say a little bit more about implementation because i feel like these con versations were hypothetical for a long time. he's saying what he's going to do out loud. and to the point of his own repostings. he seems gleeful to an all caps with three exclamation points, amplify, yes, this is what we're doing. in part, historically at least, year nine of the trump story, to soften what you're describing. which is members of the united states military. they don't beam in here from outer space.

they're sometimes deployed far from home, but sometimes in their own communities. to turn them against american towns and cities and communities is a huge, it's a moment from which the country and military will not be able to turn back. say more about its impact. >> we've never been in this position before in this magnitude. and it opens up a lot can of worms. what are the rules of engagement for such a maneuver? what would the president do? well, he could use the insurrection act. he could federalize the national guard. there's a number of things that the president could do against our own people. our people living here. and it's very concerning. one of the things that i think a lot of americans don't know is that we have a number of non citizens already serving in the u.s. military.

about 20,000 non citizens are serving in our united states military. my own, when i was a fighter pilot in my squadron, the ejection seat mechanic who worked on my ejection seat and made sure that it worked was not a u.s. citizen. and we're asking these people who wear the uniform of the united states military to then turn and deport people out of our country. it's just not what many folks signed up to do and it's really going to have an impact on recruiting. it's going to have an impact on retention and long-term, on the legitimacy of the united states military itself among the american people. >> i think with the trump story and we've been having conversations about him for nine

years now. we always, as analysts and journalists fail to imagine what he could really be doing. but listening to jacob and amy, it is clear that he knows this by now. right? both that moving 11 million people out of the country would be the largest movement of humans in generations. that turning the military against americans could destroy it. he knows all those things. so what is this? >> that's the question we have to ask ourselves. we've been asking how would he execute, pursue the policy. but what is he up to is the question, right? i think part of it has to do with americans, and americans for americans only. >> what does that mean? this is americans, too. sending, is it -- >> right. i think this is at the heart of great replacement. i think we need to understand. remember what tom homan said. we're going to go after the bad ones first.

that's what he said. he didn't just say we're going to go after the bad ones. the bad ones first. and so and then what does birthright citizenship have to do with illegal border crossings? has everything to do with the nature of the constitution of our -- the demographic. the demographics of the nation. and so i think we have to get at what's motivating this policy in order to understand the scope of it what might do. >> but the military is the most diverse, i think, i know it's the most diverse federal agency. also the most diverse workforce in america. >> right. in which he will deploy to try to achieve these ends. so they're going to be at cross purposes. i think what amy said is really important. it could literally rip the institution apart precisely because of the tensions that will be evident in the orders that will be given to do this. >> amy, you said last week that

court marshaling folks like general milley, mcchrystal, admiral mccraven would tear apart the military. we have from you and others this analysis of deploying the u.s. military on americans, which is a view shared by general kelly. it's why he speaks out on tape in the days before the election. are people going to say the military asking why donald trump wants to rip apart the military? >> i think people inside the military are very worried. i think they just want to do their jobs. they want to protect our country. and they're very concerned. i also think that there's still a lot of people that don't believe president-elect trump will do these things. and to me, that's also very scary because he continues to just plow right through with

enacting the things he said he's going to enact and i don't think we should have a lack of imagination as to the type of things he said he would do. but yeah, the people i know in the military are very concerned if not outraged. unfortunately, they can't really speak up for fear. >> just amazing. amazing. which may be by design as well. right? that they're afraid to speak up. no one's going anywhere. we have so much more to get to. when we come back, president biden making a major change in his ukraine policy now for the first time ever, allowing ukraine to fire long range u.s. made missiles into russia. the impact into that decision and looming questions about what happens after joe biden leaves office. also ahead, former trump white house communications director, no stranger to the churn of trump world. what the incoming president is trying to do with his flurry of

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this week will mark 1,000 days of war in ukraine amid russia's brutal, unprovoked invasion there. the latest, russia's largest air strike on ukraine in almost three months unleashing a barrage of missiles yesterday that killed at least seven people and caused severe damage to the power system. but ukraine is about to get a major boost with president biden easing long time restrictions and authorizing ukraine's military to use u.s. made long range missile systems. it's a major policy reversal for

president biden in his last two months in office as donald trump has vowed to limit u.s. support for ukraine and as russia according to the "new york times," prepares to launch a major assault with tens of thousands of soldiers on ukraine's counteroffensive. that effort is being aided by north korean troops deployed in russia. in his presence, biden officials have condemned as a possible expansion of the war. joining us now, former ambassador to russia, michael mcfaul, amy and eddie. ambassador, first on the biden's administration reversal on long range weapons systems. something ukraine has wanted for a long time. why now? >> well, first, i'm glad they did it. they should have done it a long time ago, in my opinion. in terms of timing, i don't know exactly. they were fighting a narrative about trump blaming the biden

administration for dragging us into world war iii. that was always a constraint. the hinted response is that it is a reaction to the north koreans. that was a major escalation. 10,000 soldiers there. so the biden administration now has an bie. >> how much military progress can ukraine make between now and january 20th if, i mean, we don't know what trump is going to do, but if zelenskyy wanted to anticipate a policy shift from the u.s. >> well, i'm not a military general. don't want to pretend to be one on tv. we've joked about that before, but i can tell you what the ukrainians are saying. the ukrainians have been preparing for trump return to the white house for many months, by the way. they always have to plan for

plan b. they think there's going to be a moment, you know, musical chairs. wherever you're sitting now is the territory you get. and they're worried about that. they're going to fight it but are preparing for it. they want to hold that territory they now hold, the kursk region. putin has the same calculation. that's why he's amassing 50,000 soldiers to try to retake that territory before january 20th. and so president zelenskyy believes that these weapons, these attackems, will help him keep that territory until they get to the moment where they begin to have pressure to negotiate. >> ambassador, what does zelenskyy see when he sees, i don't know if they were his closest friend, but two world leaders who everyone in the west

agrees are brutal autocrats, but trump more compliments putin and kim jong-un than any western leader. what do the ukrainians have to game out if trump, putin, and kim jong-un, kim jong-un and trump exchange love letters. so valuable, he reportedly took them with him. what is zelenskyy's sort of worst case scenario if that alliance holds? >> most certainly, they don't like any of that. it's disgusting. they can't believe the president of the free world is closely, again, love letters and saying nice things, about two of the worst dictators in the world. but you don't get to choose your interlocutors. i was ambassador to russia when putin was the president of russia. so they fully, soberly understand that they have to deal with president trump. i think their worst case scenario is what some people around the president-elect are

saying is that they're going to end aid to ukraine. and i think from their perspective about they're right, that won't end the war in ukraine. that will embolden putin. can you think of any wars where one side was on the march. the other side lost their support and suddenly, they said okay, let's just quit now. let's just stop here. putin's not going to do that. he's going to try to march to downtown kyiv if that happens. so they are hoping they convince president trump, yes, let's do a deal with a stalemate on the battlefield not with putin on the march because if putin's on the march, he's not going to negotiate. >> amy, let me bring you in and let me pick up on this imagination sort of weigh in that we were talking about in the last segment. these are the people around trump. jd vance laid out in september trump's peace plan to let russia keep parts of ukraine it now

occupies and forever bar ukraine from joining nato. tulsi gabbard says she wants ukraine to be a neutral country with no nato alliance on the table. marco rubio voted against u.s. military and economic aid to ukraine. pete hegseth has been tapped to lead the pentagon. criticized u.s. involvement said he doubts russia would quote, go much further than the border of poland. they're telling us what they're going to do, aren't they? >> unfortunately, i think so. you know, jd vance basically, his peace plan is for ukraine to give up 25 of its land and assign some sort of deal with russia that says it will never get into nato, which is basically saying it's going to forever be vulnerable. this is where we're at, unfortunately. i think the hope maybe is that we have some senators and

representatives on the republican side who won't give up on ukraine so easily. and potentially put pressure on the trump, incoming trump administration, to at least keep giving ukraine some weapons and to keep trying to defend ukraine. i think what president biden's doing here in unleashing the attackems is a good thing tactically and agree with that ambassador mcfaul just said about what that means. >> i will always welcome hope at this table, but i would like to pause at you with something different, eddie. one of the pressure points for tucker carlson's wildly successful show on fox news was his animosity for ukraine. particularly at a time when the brutal war started and americans, i think 85% of all americans at the beginning saw

themselves, identified with our ally. fighting this war against russia so we would never have to. the vast majority of americans support ukraine. and you have this cod ray around trump and i'm sure if you keep going, you could find more anti dmoksy statements. what do you think it say that is the electorate having that information, voted for trump? >> i think for the most part, the electorate, their eyes weren't on the international scene. they weren't really concerned about the post world war i consensus. according to the autopsy, folk were concerned about the kitchen table issues. that's that. as we ask the question around immigration policy, we need to ask the question around what's motivating the effort to destroy

the post world war ii consensus. what's driving this ideologically? i don't know the trump temper. i'll leave that to the folks who are the experts in this regard, but there's something driving trump's sensibility with regards to u.s. and nato and its position on the world stage and it's particularly located in regards to putin's position. i think we need to start asking questions and get behind the choices being made. >> i think what is not known is zelenskyy himself, ambassador mcfaul. he is a patriot. he is strong. he is, he's -- there's a lot of things about him that you would think would resonate alone in the room with donald trump. how do you think zelenskyy will approach the incoming american president, donald trump? >> he's going to try to

emphasize those things. remember, zelenskyy was an outsider from television, too. he was elected as a status quo person back in 2019. he's going to play on that. second, he's going to play on the idea row hear about the trump folks. they talk about peace through strength. they're quoting reagan. it won't look strong if president trump just says, mr. putin, just do whatever you want, take whatever you want. that's called capitulation. that's called appeasement. that will embolden xi. remember, there's a lot of china hawks allegedly on the trump team. how can you just capitulate to xi's closest ally in the world? i think those are the kind of arguments that president zelenskyy will be trying to make. i don't know if he will succeed. i know he's right about it. i hope he succeeds. >> ambassador mcfaul, thank you for being here. amy, thank you for starting us off. eddie sticks around. when we come back, the

one-time trump white house communications director joins us. 11 days. that's how long he served trump. we'll ask him about his former boss's new cabinet picks and why trump having second thoughts about the short list of treasury secretary picks. that's next. short stli of treasy secretary picks. that's next. healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your origal mice deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage. plus, prescription drug coverage with $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions. most plans include coverage for dental, vision, even hearing. and there's a cap

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another. there's hardly been time to

digest all of it. one of donald trump's cabinet picks is more outrageous than the one before it, which is only outdone by the one that comes next. but on one critical position, this has not been the pattern. the selection process appears to be going much more slowly. for the person who will head the treasury department. the next treasury secretary. "new york times" reports this. trump has had second thoughts about the top two candidates. quote, trump had been expected to pick either howard lut nick, chief executive of canter scott fitzgerald or the founder of key square capital management. and he had been seen as likely to make the selection late last week. now, the times reports, a pair of new names. former federal reserve governor, kevin wirsh, and wall street billionaire, mark rowan. whoever steps into that post

will be responsible for executing and delivering on president trump's promises. joining us now, former white house communications director, host of the open book podcast, anthony scaramucci is here. let me first ask you how you're sort of watching and taking in the transition and the way trump is making these picks? that seem to have had the desired impact of shocking most people watching. >> yeah, well, let me just start out by saying that whatever the people are thinking about in terms of trying to get the job, they make the mistake of thinking that the president-elect is acting or thinking rationally about him or the position. so what happens is you're like, okay, i think he must be thinking this because this is what a rational, normal person thinks then he does something unpredictable. what people need to know that

watch your show is that he's reflexively counterintuitive. that's not something that i came up with. that's something that h.r. mcmaster came up with. he could be starnding around and rex tillerson could say don't mention anything about us using the military in venezuela. he'll walk outside and say we're thinking about using the military in venezuela. so that's what he's doing with the cabinet picks. how can i upset the most amount of people? get somebody like gaetz who's a big loyalist to me so i don't have the jeff sessions problem with special prosecutors. so i'm going to pick gaetz even though he knows now that it's unlikely gaetz can get approved. pete hegseth is a different situation. they believe at fox news and other places that the military is a woke organization run by woke people and it's all about

dei. i don't know if you spent any time at the pentagon but i have because i've been on the business executive for national security for almost 15 years now. it's not woke there. so i don't know exactly what they're trying to achieve. i'm certain that things need to have reform but the narrative is not correct. it's almost as if like the uncle sitting on the couch as an armchair quarterback has now been called in to run the game and to be the head coach and he's going to bring his buddies with him from the local bar to see if they can figure things out that people in washington have spent multiple decades working on. >> what do you make of the process which departs from what you've articulated? which i think is spot on. i love that, what is it, counterintuitive contrarian? >> no, he's reflexively counterintuitive. >> i love that. >> what i mean by that, you want to go one way. the most rational thing to do is

to go that way so he'll on purpose go the other way to show you that he's in charge and that whatever you think, whatever other conventional people think is not the right way. >> yes. i'm only thinking of dog and toddler analogies so i'll keep my mouth shut. i want to ask you about the treasury secretary pick. this is where the phenomenon you described so far has not been the case. what's your sense of what's going on there? >> again, he is a, you know, people think he's not smart. he's a very smart guy. got great political instincts. he knows that's a very important pick because if they're going to get the tax cuts in, impose the tariffs, use the weapons of the u.s. treasury, which have been successful since the george w. bush administration, he's got to get the right person at treasury. so i think what's happened there

frankly is i think in the case of mr. lutnik, i think he's overplayed his hand and was probably too aggressive. another big rule with president-elect trump is that you can't out trump trump. that's a really bad thing for you that makes you lose in the court of public opinion. he said something the other night, he said the other night at the america first policy institute, they, bob by, you're getting more famous than me. that's bad news, bobby. when he says you're president, bobby, or you're getting more famous than me, not good. because there's one person. it's a one-man show. the lights are on one person. there are no accessory actors, no costars in the play. so when you're raising your profile, you know, he'll hit you with a ray gun. on the flip side, someone who's

a reasonable guy. i think they would both be good choices for treasury given their life experience and what i know of them and i know howard personally. one is less media oriented and so you've got to be almost like the mama bear. you've got to be just right on the media. have good hair. but then the flip side -- >> that means kevin is going to get it. he's got the best hair. >> well, but kevin's a hawk. so you know, when he's being interviewed by trump, if i were kevin's life coach, i would say you've got to go easy on the inflation containment and the hawkishness that he's written about over the last two decades because trump wants to dram interest rates down to zero and as you know from his campaign policy, he wants to end the federal reserve's independence, which would be a disaster for the best liquid, most deepest capital markets in the world.

>> you were knocking doors for kamala harris. all in with president biden. i want to press you on what, if any, you've reflected on since election day. i have to sneak in a quick break first. >> sounds good. this is cheaper. first. >> sounds good this is cheaper. for a limited time during our black friday sale, save up to 50% off plus free shipping. and start making memories a(music playing)m one in five children worldwide are faced with the reality of living without food, no family dinners, no special treats, not enough energy to play. all around the world, hunger is affecting children's physical and mental health. toddlers are suffering from acute malnutrition,

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dayquil vapocool? it's dayquil plus a rush of vicks vapors. ♪ vapocooooool ♪ woah. dayquil vapocool. the vaporizing daytime, coughing, aching, stuffy head, power through your day, medicine. i want to ask you how destructive you think trump is committed to being because the

picks at the department of justice and at the intelligence agencies seem to erode the fabric of what those agencies are and do. but your analysis of treasury seems to suggest that you think he's coming at it in a very different way. what is your sense on, and maybe there is no guiding philosophy, right? maybe it's all just you know, barfing out whatever contrarianism he's feeling. >> we've got to go over his grievances. he has a grievance against the intelligence community. there are 51 or so people that signed on to saying that the hunter biden laptop wasn't real and so that's a grievance. something that comes up a lot on the conservative news. the second piece of it is the whole jeff sessions things with the special prosecutor and the russian collusion situation with

the mueller report. those are things that he feels victimized and aggrieved about so that's why his focus is putting in people that are super loyal. on the treasury side, like i said, it's super important for him that he gets that right from a policy perspective because you know, if you're going to change the tax code or you're going to apply sanctions to people, you need to get that right. the department of defense is a battle against what he perceives to be wokeness in the culture there. if i just have ten more seconds to bring up the zelenskyy thing. that's where the rubber meets the road. people have to ask mr. trump why is it okay for finland to join nato? they border russia. they're no threat, obviously. they joined nato. why is the ukraine a threat? now you and i know historically there's something ancestral there but if the president

really wants to project power, he'll support zelenskyy and the cause of freedom. if he wants to roll for putin, i think it's going to be a very hard time for us with the europeans and it's going to also have a reverberating effect on our economy. >> you know, just thinking about the cabinet appointments. i think we need to think about them on two levels. one is the consolidation of executive power. we're about to see the impeer rall presidency on steroids. the other thing is the other area that's moving is he's trying to deconstruct the administrative state. so he wants to appoint folk who will help gum up government. so on the one hand, he's trying to collect power in order to do what he wants to do. on the other hand, he's trying to appoint people who will gum up federal agencies so they don't do that work. then the site he really cares

about because he's a money grubbing kind of guy. treasury is the place he cares about. not only individually, but in terms of the policy deliveringful we have to understand those two things converging into one. >> i accept that but i mean, i guess this is where the notion that there will be any friction. i think the story of the first trump presidency, comey at the fbi. his first friction point was with the fbi. then it was with intelligence. he didn't like what they were telling him. he wouldn't consume regularly then it's with the pentagon when they refused, they actually go along with just about everything including mark milley laughing at donald trump. they don't do the final things. seize voting machines or carry out the insurrection. what is it about treasury where he thinks they're going to do all -- none of these four people seem likely to do all the things

trump wants done at treasury. but honestly, all of those grievances you listed, he doesn't have those against treasury. he doesn't see that department as an agitant against him. he knows he needs treasury to promulgate policy. those other things are like how do these people impact me so what type of hurt can i put on them now that i'm back on the job. but you guys know this and i learned this the hard way in washington. washington is hard to move and hard to change and they're ready for president-elect trump. they're going to grind him harder in the second term than they grinded him in the first term and they're adaptive. it's like an immune system ready

to reject him harder the second time. >> i started to ask you about the election. i want to have that conversation with you. you were out knocking on doors that weekend before election day. i've run out of time, but come back. thank you both for being here today. another break for us. we'll be right back. today. another break for us we'll be right back. one thing we know is true: no matter race, gender, ethnicity... the need to screen when due... for colon cancer's a priority. indeed! everyone 45+ at average risk should screen for colon cancer. these folks are getting it done at home with me, cologuard. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for cologuard. i did it my way. we all need fiber for our digestive health,

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