this your nonprofit status will be invalidated. that could have a pernicious effect. we have a slowing, not just a speed bump on the way to an authoritarian government. we have to at every opportunity when he's overreaching, we have to push back and not just be a yield right-of-way for his erroneous endeavors. >> congressman, thank you. we appreciate it. >> thank you so much. >> that's all in on this tuesday night. because we are doing our best to track all of them. i mean, it's really -- >> is a lot. >> what you just talked about could lead a show. >> i know! >> but, it is just a testament to where we are at. great show. >> thank you.

if there is one hallmark of the trump era, one strategy that has been employed to force through a radical agenda, it might be this one. first articulated by steve bannon all the way back in 2018. "the democrats don't matter," bannon said. "the real opposition is the media. and the way to deal with them is to flood the zone with" stuff. he didn't say "stuff," but you get the idea. steve bannon was overstating the role of the media and understating the role of actual democratic officials, but that "flood the zone" approach, that is something we have seen trump do to great effect over the years. it is not that trump is some sort of brilliant tactician, but on some level, trump does seem to realize that the best way to avoid scrutiny is to simply do a whole lot of bad things, all at once, to keep everyone's attention divided.

something we are seeing play out right now, today, this hour. today, republican congresswoman nancy mace introduced a bill ma that would ban transgender people on capitol hill from using the bathroom of the gender they identify with. it is clear that this bill was designed to stoke controversy about congresswoman-elect sarah mick ride -- mcbride who became the first openly transgender person ever elected to congress in this past election. under mace's bill, congressman elect-bride would be forced to use the men's room on capitol hill. it is an obviously dehumanizing attempt, to only a new member of congress. it is a clear attempt to gain n the spotlight given the fact that representative mace, just three years ago, cosponsored a bill that would have protected transgender people from exactly this kind of discrimination. and here is what she says, now. >> is this bill in response to congresswoman mcbride coming to congress? >> yes, absolutely. if mcbride wants to ssgo to the gym, she can go to planet fitness, where they allow

biological men to be around and in a room with private space with underage girls. no thank you. s. it is not going to happen, not on my watch. >> the ina here, is that if there are any alleged or accused of sexual predators coming to town in january 2025, they may be two of trump's own cabinet picks. matt gaetz and pete hegseth are both currently fighting allegations of sexual misconduct, allegations that both men denied. but, nancy mace is worried about transgender people using her bathroom. this is literally what it means to flood the zones. we are now talking about nancy mace, and transgender panic, and not say the unfitness of trump's cabinet picks, and the very real threats they pose to the agencies they are set to lead. example, today, the bulwark unearthed video from 2020 of rfk jr., trump's picked to be the health and human services agency, suggesting that he is open to the idea that the global coronavirus pandemic was actually a sinister government conspiracy.

>> many people argue that this pandemic was a plan-demic, and it was planned from the outset as part of a scheme. i can't tell you the answer to that. i don't have enough evidence. >> just to be clear, the pandemic that caused the deaths of more than 1 million people in the united states, the covid pandemic, was not planned by the u.s. government. here is another example. a few hours ago, trump named dr. mehmet oz, the failed pennsylvania senate candidate, and former tv doctor, to run the center for medicare and medicaid services. prior to joining trump's orbit, dr. oz already had a reputation as a snake oil salesman, something that then senator claire mccaskill pressed him on during a 2014 senate hearing. >> why would you say that something is a miracle in a bottle? >> my job, i feel, on the show, is to be a cheerleader for the

audience. >> years later, dr. oz went on to use his platform as a medical influencer to advocate for the reopening of schools at the height of the covid pandemic, even if that meant that potentially hundreds more people, including children, had to die. >> well, first, we need our mojo back. let's start with things that are really critical to the nation, that we think we might be able to open without getting into a lot of trouble. i will tell you, schools are a very appetizing opportunity. i just saw a nice piece in the lancer arguing that the reopening of schools may only cost us 2% to 3% in terms of total mortality. >> what is the harm in killing 2% to 3% more people, if it means getting our mojo back? and here's another example. again, from today. . abc news is now reporting, according to multiple sources, that trump is considering nominating russell vought, the architect of project 2025, for a cabinet level position. nbc news has not independently verified that reporting, but remember that donald trump spent the last six months

insisting that he had nothing to do with project 2025. so, yes, flooding the zone is the playbook here, and now it is being run in a way that we have literally never seen before. so, this is the new normal. this is just the way it is going to be, now. how do democrats, how does the media, how should the public, stay focused on what is really happening? joining me now are dan pfeiffer, cohost of "positive america" and former white house senior adviser to president obama and claire mccaskill, senator from missouri and current msnbc political analyst. dan and claire, thank you both for being here tonight. claire, let me just start with you, in terms of -- it is drinking from a fire hose, quite literally, something became adept at in 2016, but this seems like it is a different order of magnitude, and i wonder how you are picking and choosing where to focus both your concern and rage? >> well, that's hard.

i feel like i'm halfway between -- you know, in a fetal position, depressed, and enraged, like every 10 minutes. it is a hell of a roller coaster ride, right now. but, let me just say this, on these nominees, every senator will have to cast a vote. first, many of them will have to cast votes in committee. and then, there will be a hearing, and the democratic senators will have a lot of things to talk about in those hearings. and hopefully, they get covered widely by all stripes of media. not just on our network, but on fox news, and on some of the other really right-wing, disinformation centers. and hopefully, americans see why these people are completely unqualified. and all these senators, alex, remember, a bunch of these senators know that this was not a landslide.

the republican senator didn't win in wisconsin, the republican senate candidate didn't win in nevada, the republican senate candidate didn't win in arizona, the republican senate candidate, even though he was a popular republican governor, and had a lot of money, didn't win in maryland. there were a lot of states, where the republicans in the senate were reminded that this is not a country that is lopsided in favor of unqualified nominees for important, complex government jobs. t and i think that trump may be surprised, because you only had to have four. on any of these folks, you only need to have four. if you just take the people that are not running again, you get to four. >> dan, to that end, i wonder if you think -- i mean, i understand the desire to sort of sift through the wreckage and say, you know, to debate whether trump has a mandate, or not. but, i also think it is clear that certain lines of criticism, or coverage, have not resonated the way that i think perhaps a lot of people who are tethered to earth one

and the truth would have liked them to. i wonder if you think that particularly, democrats in the senate, who will be a part of this confirmation process, should adopt a different strategy, when thinking of what to focus on with these potential cabinet picks? >> i don't know if it is a different strategy. we have a very robust case to make against all of them. i think the thing we have to be careful about as democrats -- ab and something we all fell into in 2017 when trump was elected -- is we become the defenders of the status quo, the defenders of the institution. what we can do here, is we can acknowledge, institutions in government need to be reformed, but should not be changed in the way that donald trump is proposing. we can make the case on tulsa gabbard, and matt gaetz, and all of that -- and those are strong cases to make, trust me -- but there is a broader basis here on what trump is doing. it is pure cronyism and corruption. he is putting in place people

who are going to serve his interests, not the nation's interests. and i think that is an argument that can resonate, because there are a whole bunch of people who voted for trump who do not like him and didn't agree with them who voted for him for two reasons, he was going to lower the cost and bring change to government, but this is the change they wanted, so that is a point we can make. >> claire, what you think about that argument? for people like thom tillis, people who are up for re- election, people who might be the pivot points, here. do you think that argument works? that this is about one man's selfish, self-serving agenda? is it about our national interests? is it about sexual assault allegations? i mean, what you think is most resonant, in terms of your former republican colleagues in the senate? >> well, i think that is right, in terms of messaging. the democrats need to be disciplined about presenting these candidates, not just as ca potentially guilty of sexual assault, and not as, you know, that they are really, wholly unqualified, but they are part of a trump agenda to do things that americans don't want.

and so, pinning down some of these folks -- so, where would two thirds of the workforce that you are going to be in charge of, where would you cut those two thirds? because that is what musca said they are going to do, they are going to cut two thirds of the employees. well, i would like dr. oz, who with a straight face told me it was okay for him to say that kaia berries were a miracle in a bottle, and they would cut the fat, and all the silliness he did on his show. i would like him to explain to the american people how you cut two thirds of the people that t process medicare payments, or how you cut two thirds of the people that administer healthcare in this country, in terms of getting payments out to help americans. i think focusing on the impact it will have on the american people, is going to be much more effective. but, remember why these guys were chosen. not just to further trump's ego, and his idea that this is all about him, but the other reason

they were chosen, is they are good, performative politicians. they are going to do performance. they are going to do soundbites. they are going to be telegenic. these are people that are not qualified to run anything. i mean, all of these people have never run anything in ev their lives! much less, a really sprawling, complex organization that has to deliver essential services to the american people who pay for them. >> it seems, dan, to clear his point about the qualifications issue, is most convincingly used by democrats, if it is -- you know, toward a specific end. you know, how is mehmet oz going to manage cms? what exactly is pete hegseth going to do, in terms of running the giant, sprawling to see that is the u.s. military? i wonder if, you know -- sort of, what issues in particular do you think are most easily brought to the forefront by democrats, that will have residents, not just with republican senators, but with the american public?

you know, we had a whole election play out, and it seems like the harris ticket really tried to hit on those issues, sort of nonpartisan issues that people care about and to some degree, that just didn't resonate, at all. so, i wonder what the lesson is from that, in terms of issues that specifically need to be focused on, in these incoming confirmation processes? >> i it is worth separating the effort to convince republican senators to vote against them, with the broader effort to convince the public that the maga extremist republican party cannot be allowed to govern in '26, '28, and onward. because the specific arguments are going to work for thom tillis, just around rfk jr., with some of the senators, we have already seen mike pence come out and attack rfk jr. for having supported abortion access in his career. so, there are going to be specific strategies, there. we should do everything we possibly can to defeat these

candidates. then, there is the broader story we want to tell. i think the part we have to be careful on, is a lot of voters -- specifically the ones who decided this election, the ones who went from martin to trump, the ones who came into the process for the first time to vote for trump -- they are very cynical about government, they are very cynical about politicians, they are very distrustful of institutions, and if our answer is to all those people, that they are not expert enough, they are not from washington enough to do w these jobs, that is going to fall by the wayside. so, i think we have to be specific about the ways in which each individual apartment is going to affect people's lives, right? i think what senator mccaskill hit on with dr. oz, and medicare and medicaid is very important. you are going to put someone in, who is a known grifter, to run the most important and most popular program in the american government. for matt gaetz, he is there not to protect us from crime, to stop terrorism, to stop financial fraud and all the other things that the justice department does, he is here to investigate who donald trump

wants investigated and most importantly, not investigate who donald trump does not want investigated. so, being more specific about how it impacts people's lives, i think it will be better than simply that they are unqualified argument, although that will work for republican senators, for sure. >> it is to come located! i get what you are saying, dan. the argument for thom tillis is totally separate from the argument for the american public, but i think dan hits on something very important, clear, which is the idea -- and we talked with ben wrote about this in the wake of the election -- democrats have been forced into the position of defending institutions and bureaucracies, and in a moment where the american public has th desires for change or disruption, that is not a place to be. first of all, do you agree with that? and to think that sort of careful choreography of defending democracy and transparency, and rule of law, can exist separate and apart t from a more strident defense of bureaucracies and institutions that people have lost faith in? >> yeah, i agree with dan. this should not be about the status quo in government is what we are here to protect, because no americans are going

to go, "oh, yeah, we love the status quo of government, it is perfect, nothing is ever wrong, i am never put on hold and i never have to worry about getting an answer to my question." i mean, it is like asking people if they love going to the dmv, right? so, it is really not a good idea to take the position that these people are going to hurt the status quo. what these people are going to do, is hurt you. they are going to hurt your life, because they are planning on doing things that you don't agree with. and that is the challenge of the senate. now, the specific qualifications on specific issues will speak to certain senators, and that will occur. that kind of lobbying will occur, those senators will learn things about these folks and their backgrounds -- they already know things. i mean, i guarantee there are already votes to not confirm y matt gaetz. so, but, this really is about chuck schumer and the democratic caucus having the disciplining messaging.

this isn't about defending government, this is about defending the american people. >> dan pfeiffer and claire mccaskill answering the hard questions. thank you, guys, for taking ilt time tonight. i appreciate it. coming up, the president- elect attends a space x rocket launch with a man who has already received billions of dollars in government contracts, and stands to gain a whole lot more in a second trump administration. but, first, trump has bu started receiving intelligence briefings again despite the indictment on the charges of stealing classified documents. jason crow, a member of the house intelligence committee, joins me to discuss, next. disc.

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today, we learned that president-elect trump is now receiving intelligence briefings once again. now, we don't know the specifics of those briefings, but it is highly likely they involve unclassified material. remember, the last time donald trump had access to unclassified information, remember that? he revealed the capability of u.s. spy satellites by publicly tweaking out a photo of an iranian missile launch site. he showed classified intelligence gathered by a foreign ally, with russian officials in the oval office. and, of course, he was indicted on 40 federal criminal counts related to the mishandling of classified documents after he left office. remember all that?

we also learned that trump's team is continuing to opt out of the official transition process in ways that jeopardize national security. the national post reports that in calls with foreign heads of state, trump has cut out the state department, its secure lines, and its official interpreters. as his team considers hundreds of potential appointees for key jobs, trump has also, so far, declined to let the fbi check for potential red flags and security threats to guard against espionage, instead relying on private campaign lawyers are some appointees, and doing no vetting at all for others. joining me now is congressman jason crow, democrat of colorado, who serves on the house intelligence and foreign relations committees. congressman crow, thank you for being here. we just rattled off a list of -- a litany of distressing reporting about this trump transition, and i wonder as someone who sits on the

committees you do, what alarms you the most about what we are hearing? >> well, alex, it is really hard to decide where to start here, right? there is the issues of process, you kind of outlined some processes and procedures, security checks and protocol. and these aren't put in place just for fun, right? those are put in place to protect against spies, to protect against espionage, to protect against the transfer and dissemination of really critical information that isn't just going to be left somewhere. but, we have to understand that there are adversaries actively trying to get this stuff, trying to penetrate our cyber security systems every day. so, protecting this and having these processes in place is meant to protect the american people and it is meant to protect our intelligence officers and our service men and women who are serving in dangerous places, which that information could put them in a

compromising position. so, yes, certainly, the process is flawed but as we all well know, the fundamentals of these nominees and their very policies themselves are disturbing, as well. >> can i just follow up on that? would you assume that foreign adversaries are already trying to listen in on these phone calls trump is having with world leaders, given he is not using secure lines, not engaging in any of the security protocols that normally exist? >> well, i don't have to assume that, i know that to be true. right? listen, as we sit here right now, having this conversation, we have thousands of intelligence officers around the globe in very dangerous situations, putting themselves at risk to collect information, or to protect information, to prevent attacks against the american people, to prevent our financial systems from being breached. we have service men and women around the globe in dangerous places, protecting american citizens, protecting our assets. right? this is a daily, hourly occurrence. this is an active dynamic situation. so, sitting back even a day or

two with letting our guard down poses substantial risk. and when you look at the people he has nominated, like tulsi gabbard, and others, who not only are incompetent and don't have the experience to do this, but i also question their very loyalties, in some cases. tulsi gabbard, for example, has a very long history of showing affinity for dictators and autocrats, of being irresponsible with russian propaganda, and you know, when i say "irresponsible" that is actually putting it generously, for someone who has purposely perpetuated that propaganda. it is a very dangerous time, here. >> and i was going to ask you about tulsi gabbard who would lead, i believe it is 18 intelligence agencies. what about pete hegseth, who is trump's pick for secretary of defense? i mean, there are questions about his support for soldiers accused of war crimes, there are his own sexual assault allegations, his own nda he signed for claims of a woman,

an ongoing situation on the hill. what concerns you about his situation? >> the lack of experience, and simply that he was nominated because he will be loyal to donald trump. listen, in your prior segment, when were talking to dan and claire, you actually made an important point about democrats being put in a position of defending agencies and departments. that is actually not what we are doing. we are not defending agencies and departments. what we are doing is making sure that government works to protect americans, that it works to serve americans. and that can take the form of making sure that fraud, waste, and abuse, our government inefficiency is addressed on capitol hill. but, in these instances, it takes the form of making sure nominees are not put in positions to dismantle important government functions, to line the pockets of cronies or if supporters of donald trump, or even worse, to weapon eyes those agencies against donald trump's opponents, which very clearly is the case with

matt gaetz, for example. so, it is the same thing we are doing. we are working to ensure that government works for americans, not for individuals, not for donors. >> can i follow up on that, though? because i think there is probably a finer line in the that, separating the idea of democrats who want to ensure the integrity of institutions, and the notion of just being a blanket defender of bureaucracy. and i say that, because the overarching window has shifted so much, that unless you are there to burn it all down, you are somehow part of the deep state, and i wonder if you think that job of democrats defending the institutions and democracy guardrails that protect our representative democracy, will be a lot harder in chubb 2.0 where you have people like matt gaetz at the justice department and tulsi gabbard for the department of national intelligence. can you talk a little bit more

about that? >> yes, people talk about defending institutions, defending guardrails, but defending the institution and guardrails is not the end, right? that is not the ultimate goal. the ultimate goal is to protect americans and be sure that government serves them. that is the goal. these guardrails, these institutions are in furtherance of that goal, right? so, whenever we talk about defending the rules-based international order, defending guardrails, defending institutions, there are a lot of people who are like, well, why? in furtherance to what end? it is really important that when we talk about this, we are talking about what we are trying to achieve and how it serves americans. and the people in my district, in colorado, the families. you know, how their lives are impacted by clean food, clean water, aviation inspectors, rail line inspectors, intelligence officers that are affording attacks against americans. you know, that is the goal and that is the way we need to talk about it and that is the way we

need to pursue policy and oversight. >> greater specificity. congressman jason crow, thank you so much for your perspective on this. it is really great to hear from a sitting member of congress about the road ahead. i appreciate your time tonight, sir. >> thank you. coming up, the coziness between donald trump and elon musk was at full display today at spacex's latest rocket launch. how much more money, power, and influence can one man have? that is next. next. to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body. i asked myself, why doesn't pilates exist in harlem? so i started my own studio. getting a brick and mortar in new york is not easy. chase ink has supported us from studio one to studio three. when you start small, you need some big help. and chase ink was that for me. earn up to 5% cash back on business essentials with the chase ink business cash card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. whoa! how'd you get your teeth so white? you gotta use the right toothpaste! dr. c?! ♪♪

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to have our location, because we have a lot of land with nobody around, so if it blows up, it's cool. >> that was elon musk, the world's richest man and owner of the commercial aerospace company, spacex. back in 2018, talking about spacex launch site in boca chica, texas, near brownsville. that spot was chosen by spacex for two reasons. number one, it is one of the southernmost points in the continental united states. number two, it is just a teeny, tiny strip of private property surround almost entirely by government owned land. that is why, if elon musk thought, if stuff blows up, it's cool. and stuff has certainly blown up over, and over, and over again. but here is the thing about boca chica, texas. even though there aren't a ton of people nearby, that does not mean it is empty. the government owned land that

surrounds spacex is boca chica launch site is made up of state parks, and beaches, and national wildlife refuges. the area is home to everything from protective bird habitats, to a breeding ground for the world's most endangered species of sea turtle. to give you a sense of the kind of damage these rocket launches can have, here is the new york times' description of a successful launch earlier this summer. again, this is a successful launch, no explosions involved. "two hours after the launch, a team from spacex, the u.s. fish and wildlife service, and the conservation group began canvassing the fragile migratory bird habitat around the launch site. the impact was obvious. the launch had unleashed an enormous burst of mud, stones, and fiery debris across the public lands, encircling mr. musk's $3 billion base compound. chunks of sheet-metal and insulation were strewn across

the sand flats on one side of a state park. elsewhere, a small fire had ignited, leaving a charred patch of park grasslands -- remnants from the blastoff that burned 7.5 million pounds of fuel. most disturbing to one member of the entourage, was the yellow smear on the soil in the same spot that a birds nest lay the day before." none of the nine nests recorded by the nonprofit, coastal bend bays and estuaries program before the launch, had survived intact. egg yolk now stained the ground. and that was a successful launch. for years now, spacex has been at odds with government agencies, like the u.s. fish and wildlife service, and the department of the interior, and the epa, over the impact of spacex's boca chica launch packed. today, elon musk was the joint in boca chica for spacex's latest launch, joined by president-elect trump himself. now, just last week, trump tapped musk to run what he is calling the department of government efficiency. the idea there is that musk

will be given a broad agreement to suggest cuts to federal agencies, as musk sees fit. agencies like the u.s. fish and wildlife service, and the department of the interior, and the epa. familiar agencies, if you are elon musk. and the cherry on top is that because musk would just be an adviser to donald trump and not an actual government employee, musk wouldn't have to be confirmed by the senate, nor would he have to divest from any of the companies overseen by the agencies that elon musk would now be overseeing. and spacex's fights with the federal government in boca chica are really just the tip of the iceberg, here. elon musk companies have been targeted in more than 20 recent investigations or reviews by federal regulators. and now, elon musk has the president's ear. trump is literally attending elon musk's rocket launches, and potentially giving him free rein to cut the very government

agencies that elon musk has problems with. not to mention, all of the money musk stands to make on government contracts alone. we will get into that and much more, coming up, next. next. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. and try new vaposhower max for steamy vicks vapors. hey, everybody. w. kamau bell here. they say that america is the land of the free. but right now, people in the u.s. are seeing their freedoms taken away at an alarming rate. freedoms some of us take for granted. the right to vote. equal access to health care. book banning and other forms of censorship that threaten our right to learn. and here's something truly shocking, right now in our country hundreds of thousands of people

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ranking. the man who gained the most was already the world's richest person, elon musk. overnight, musk's wealth increased by a staggering $26.5 billion. and that could just be the first installment, as it trump's co-chair of trump's government efficiency, less of an actual government department but more of an outside advisory committee, musk could have unprecedented power over how the federal government operates, including how federal contracts operate, which is not a bad place to be if you are elon musk and two of your companies have received over $15 billion in taxpayer money, including for programs like spacex. a relationship that, by the looks of it today, may only get cozier. joining me now, teddy pfeiffer, reporter for the new york times who has been covering campaign finance and the influence of billionaires in american politics. teddy, thank you so much for being here. i am eager to have this

conversation with you, and each day brings a new data point about the trump-musk relationship. first of all, i was struck by the attendance of the president- elect at a spacex launch, and the tweet trump sent out "i am heading to the great state of texas to wash the launch of the largest object ever to be elevated, not only to space, but simply by lifting off the ground. good luck to elon musk and the great patriots involved in this incredible project." president having admiration for space expiration projects isn't a new thing, but the relationship between spacex and the federal government seems to be a particular one. can you talk more about that and how much money is being exchanged, there? >> certainly. look, even if kamala harris had won, i think it is true elon musk would have a big role in american space policy. i mean, he runs the largest private state space company in the united states and i think it is fair to say he would always play a big role in american space policy, but clearly, trump is enamored by the role musk is playing right now. you can see it on the screen right now. is having a lot of fun. he is getting to see up close how space policy works, he could see the rocket launch.

he clearly is enjoying the fact that he gets to see an industry he knows nothing about, right? trump doesn't really know anything about space policy, he knows about real estate, he knows a little bit about manufacturing, but i think part of the reason trump and musk get along so well right now is because trump is learning. he is learning about this industry, he is using rockets, you know, big billows of smoke and fire. he is having fun. >> yeah, i mean, it's pretty easily understandable, a giant rocket going into space. what is less discussed is the fact that spacex has received at least $15.4 billion in federal contracts across nine cabinet agencies and three independent federal agencies. i would -- i mean, the charmingly cozy -- not charming -- the cozy relationship between these two men certainly has to be a good thing for elon musk, just in terms of keeping that money flowing, but then

there is also the issue of tesla, which musk obviously has invested interest in. last year, i think, tesla earned $1.79 billion from carbon credits. this seems like a little bit more of a complicated relationship, given the climate the nihilism that characterizes much of the gop. what does your reporting tell you about the expectations going into that, vis-@-vis trump and his climate change skeptic at the epa, potentially, and generally, the republican posture on climate, and musk's vested interest in climate technology? >> yeah, you would think for a minute that -- or, you forget for a minute, that elon musk is somebody who used to be embraced by liberals, right? driving a tesla was like this card-carrying element of being a proud democrat. elon never really talks about climate much at all, anymore. if you look at his twitter feed, at least publicly, he hasn't really been asked to square his policy on climate change with his support for

trump. even though the issues that elon seems to care about our immigration, it is crime, you know, i would love to have a great answer to your question, but elon hasn't really said anything about this himself. it makes you wonder, does trump really know much about elon's traditional hawkishness on climate issues? it makes you wonder whether elon himself cares about that issue. you know, during the trump presidency, the first time, elon musk was, you know, apoplectic about america pulling out of the paris climate accords. that was, you know, all of seven or eight years ago, now. so, maybe things have changed and certainly elon politics have changed. but, you raise a good point, which is it is unclear that that issue that admitted elon to get involved with, you know, electric vehicles, and certainly made an impact on the entire industry, it is unclear if that issue even registers

for him anymore. >> and clearly, that potential hope that he might do something to sway trump on climate change seems like a far-fetched idea, indeed. >> yeah. >> i wonder, though, we talked about musk's various business interests here, it seems like the regulatory state is something he is after. he will now be co-chairing this department on government efficiency, doge. it is not an official, cabinet level agency. it is outside of the government. but, i wonder, there is various talk about republicans tinkering, or the trump administration tinkering with the law, to take on elon's recommendations more wholeheartedly, to take more -- for the white house to take more control of the purse strings, which is normally a power vested with congress. do you expect elon musk to literally use this agency to benefit himself and his bottom line, directly and explicitly, given what we know about his war on "the deep state?" >> look, i mean, whenever you have a businessman, especially with as many businesses as elon musk has, enter government, there is a conflict of interest. that is inevitable.

conflicts of interest are managed all the time. i don't really buy the idea that this is impossible to manage. i think what is challenging for this particular department that elon is proposing on setting up, what trump is proposing setting up, is that this is a government body, or it seems to be a government body that is going to be existing outside of the normal kind of disclosure regime, and it is unclear if these conflicts are even going to be public. that is a big difference from, say, the ceo of goldman sachs going to be secretary of the treasury. that is a well-worn path in the revolving door of american capitalism. here, i think disclosure is going to be really important, and i frankly think just facts about what this government body is even going to do is very important and we don't have either of those right now. you know, look, i think that vivek ramaswamy and elon musk, they can play a role in government and budget-cutting while also having these businesses they are running.

but, we need more information, frankly, about how this is going to be structured so that the conflicts can be managed, and that can be done. >> all right, i'm going to say that is a cautiously optimistic that note you are sounding, teddy. >> only for november, yes. >> i am pessimistic, for the record. but, i agree, we need more information. teddy schleifer from the new york times, thank you for your time tonight. >> you bet. still to come this evening, donald trump once a get out of free -- jail free card for his felony convictions, but prosecutors are still trying to get justice. what they are willing to do, next. it's an idea whose time has come. autumn is here and leaves are falling. any gutter open to the elements is going to collect leaves, acorns, you name it. and cleaning your gutters can be a real challenge, but just one call to leaffilter and the problem solved. it wasn't just that leaffilter cleaned our gutters and guaranteed that they'd stay clog free,

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manhattan prosecutors who succeeded in convicting donald trump on 34 felony counts are not giving up the fight to seek accountability. someday. now, trump's attorneys want the d.a.s office to agree that it's entire criminal case should be dismissed, now that trump is president-elect and in the wake

of the supreme court's ruling on presidential immunity. today, the d.a.s office rebuffed that request, but given the unprecedented nature of this case, prosecutors also signaled a willingness to put trump's sentencing on hold while trump is in office. the decision to freeze or dismiss the case altogether will be up to judge juan merchan, who is expected to say something on the manner in the days ahead. joining me now is duncan levin, former assistant u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. duncan, it has been a minute. a lot has changed, sir. >> yes. >> first off, why do you think bragg's office is opening the door to doing this for four years? >> well, there are some unpalatable choices for this judge. he could dismiss the case, she could decide to throw the president-elect of the united states in jail right now. both of those are extremely unlikely to happen so he really has two bad choices. one is to sentence the president-elect of the united states to time served and say

basically all of this was for nothing. at the other is to say, oh i am going to sentence them, but in a way that balances these constitutional norms of respect for the presidency and respect for the jury system, kick it down the road four more years until he is done, and then sentence him the fifth. the judge has in his mind he should go to jail, he can do it in four years, it won't interact with the presidency at all. so, alvin bragg is clearly going to be asking for jail time if it is put four years in the future. right now, there is no choice. the only sentence available is what is called an unconditional discharge, which means that is it, the case is done, he has felony conviction, and that is it. >> we are done here. i guess i am reading between the lines here and it sounds like you believe that merchan, if he kicks the can down the proverbial road, by necessity, it is because he has something

in mind for trump that is quite serious, in terms of a sentence? >> i think the pathway to incarceration is still there. it is narrowed. >> in post-presidency? >> in post-presidency. but, there is another reason, anything could happen in the next four years. trump may or may not be alive, the judge may or may not be. anything could happen. so, by kicking the can down the road for four years, he preserves a lot of options, it gives him a chance to rule on these motions that isn't really time pressured, he can make the right decision, because all of this, to say the least, is without legal precedent, so he wants to make sure he gets it right and there is really no rush, anymore. >> and we are seeing a lot of cans either kicked down the road or thrown in the recycling bin out right. to that end, today, the georgia court of appeals canceled oral arguments that were scheduled for december 5th about whether fani willis, the fulton county d.a., should be disqualified from the election interference case she brought against trump. this has to do with the whole kerfuffle with nathan wade. they canceled the oral arguments. what does that say to you about

what is going on with this case? >> there are bigger issues at stake here than this sort of sideshow about the prosecutors and disqualification. trump was losing those arguments, prior to the election. i think now, they are probably reallyre-evaluate the whole case, and dealing with the constitutional issues this court is dealing with. so, in a way, they are just canceling and saying, this is a sideshow right now, we have to get to the meat of the issue which is, can this prosecution even go forward? it doesn't even matter for the prosecutor is. can any state prosecution, right now, go forward against the president-elect? so, i think the reason they canceled it without any comment is this is just a minor sideshow at this point, with sort of bigger problems. >> is your assumption that that case goes away? >> i think that the two federal cases are dead on arrival, obviously. and i think the other two are sort of withering away slowly. and there are pathways to a conviction in georgia. there is a pathway to incarceration in new york. but, it is narrowing, it is sort of dying on the vine.

so, i think it is going to be tortured. and if it survives, it will be only because it survives a very tortured process. this has given trump's lawyers so much to argue in the state courts about balancing these constitutional norms and how a case like this goes forward, that it might be years before anything really ever happens on either of these two state cases. >> in the meantime, though, his allies are still being prosecuted in at least four states. rudy giuliani and mark meadows, georgia, arizona, michigan, and nevada. so, there is some accountability for some people who were affiliated with the plot to sway an election. duncan levin, the screw turns, as they say. these are the days of our lives. thank you for making the time, my friend. >> thank you. >> that is our show this evening, now it is time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence.