they have likened him to a child running with scissors, they have said some terrible things about him, i just wonder, if this is the hill that donald trump wants to fight, if matt gaetz is the kind of person that he wants to defend to build, to the ag to the american public, but he didn't win by a giant margin and i'm sorry, i've got 20 seconds left. >> donald trump has the political mandate given to him by the american people, 312 electoral college votes and a popular vote victory, the largest victory by a president easily since reagan in 84, he is entitled to his appointees. . thank you for joining us and please come back. that will do it for me today. deadline white house starts right now.

>> hi everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. breaking this hour, the house ethics committee has ended its meeting to discuss its report on allegations of sex trafficking and drug use by donald trump's pick for attorney general. fire brand matt gaetz, a figure who commands bipartisan hatred among some of his colleagues but is liked by the one person who calls all of the shots in the republican party, donald trump. the chair of the ethics committee tells reporters that there has been no agreement reached to release the report. hours before the meeting, vice president elect jd vance today joined matt gaetz on capitol hill to lobby on behalf of gaetz, another sign that the trump team is all in in getting him confirmed, never mind the allegations of sex trafficking or drug use or quote long

history of trafficking in anti-semitic conspiracy theories or even the lack of legal experience. the action on capitol hill happening in a steady drip of the investigation even as the ethics committee debates what to do with the actual report. multiple sources familiar with the ethics committee's work tells us this. one woman told the committee that a payment from gaetz was for sex, while others have said they were paid to attend parties that gaetz attended that featured drugs and sex. matt gaetz has denied any wrong doing in both the congressional investigation and federal probe. the federal probe was closed without any charges being brought. whatever happens with the ethics committee's findings, it is sure to underscore the fact that a justice department headed by matt gaetz would take the

country into unchartered waters. the news broke that gaetz is being nominated and one doj official told nbc news this. look, he is uniquely qualified, how many others prospective attorneys general had previous experience as the subject of an investigation? but under that snarky comment is a question on how the justice department can credibly do law enforcement work with an attorney general who was a subject of a sex trafficking investigation, the kind of investigation that is pretty central to what doj does and is known to do all around the world. the associated press reports this hours before the announcement, gaetz said in a social media post that there needs to be a full press court against the weaponized government. he added this, if that means

abolishish agencies from a fbi to the atf, i'm ready to get going. if confirmed as the attorney general, he would oversee both of those agencies, the fbi and atf. they are formerly known as the bureau of alcohol, tobacco, firearms, and explosives. does the justice department under attorney general matt gaetz even look like? what does it do if it is focused on weaponization of government potentially at war with itself? it is where we start with reporters and friends. ali vitali has been tracking all of the lobbying efforts for us on capitol hill. former congressman from florida, msnbc political analyst david jogy is here and with me on set is former assistant u.s.

attorney -- that's not your title. >> attorney general. >> thank you. mary, take me inside how important it is for the mission of the department of justice and the reputation around the world to be effective at prosecuting sex trafficking. >> i think one of the things that people are confused about is what does it mean that the department of justice declined to bring charges, does that mean they concluded he was not guilty of committing any crime. the answer is no. there are many reasons why the department of justice at the end of an investigation decides not to prosecute. it could be on a particular element of the crime, they didn't feel they were rock solid on being able to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. there had been reporting that one of the two women who testified said she didn't think that matt gaetz knew for example the age of the 17-year-old that apparently he was seen having

sex with. that kind of thing, like knowledge of age would be important to the department of justice. there could be other things too with respect to evidence that made them decide ultimately that they were not convinced that they could prove a case beyond a reasonable doubt. there could have been other discretionary considerations as well. it should not be considered an exoneration. the fact is, even being, all of the information that is starting to come out about the sex parties, drugs, and things like that is why it is so important, should be important to the ethics committee. it should be important to the senate committees that would have to approve his, confirm his appointment. to your point about the reputation, that's a huge problem, right? it's not only that he is unqualified. he does have a law degree but he really has not substantially practiced law. he has been a politician his whole career. he has no experience at the

state or federal level at the department of justice prosecuting or doing civil cases. he has propounded conspiracy theories. he has made excuses and lies on what happened on january 6th and of course he is accused of these very serious sex trafficking offenses. so the message this sends abroad and the message it would send within the department is also really deeply concerning. people work there as career attorneys and prosecutors across administrations, republican, democrat administrations, and feel committed to doing their job and bringing justice to the american people and this would be a huge, huge blow to the rank and file at the department. >> talk about sex trafficking prosecutions and how they are often -- it's my understanding that they are often, there are intersections with sex trafficking with illegal immigration, and intersections

with drug prosecution and drug cartel. prosecuting sex trafficking, for that to be chilled even by the awkward human experience of walking in to brief an attorney general once investigated for sex trafficking could have an implication or impact on other crime prosecutions, couldn't it? >> i think it could if there is direction coming from the attorney general if it is matt gaetz or from the other politicals. i think in the u.s. attorneys' offices, each which just has one appointee, that those offices and my former office, before i was acting assistant attorney general for national security, i was a prosecutor for a long time in the d.c. federal prosecution office. i was a supervisor in the sex offense section for a while. those career prosecutors will still be investigating sex trafficking cases. you're right.

many of them involve transnational sex trafficking and international sex trafficking. some are connected to immigration issues as you indicated, drug cartels and all of those things. i expect the rank and file will continue the investigations we are doing. it would mean, to stop those things, we take a directive from high up. i don't know how he would approach that. if he actually takes the position he did nothing wrong, he might thing, i can still say this is an important priority of the department of justice without losing any face. the rest of us may feel very differently about that. there is no question that there may be some prosecutors coming out of the office, some in the deputy attorney general's office may feel cowed about certain things. there biggest thing that happens and it happens every transition but it will be more extreme this time around is what are the top

priorities going to be? and i don't think it is going to be sex trafficking unless he himself connects this to, we have illegal immigrants who are engaged in the sex trafficking and that could be part of his mantra. >> let's listen to susan whiles, ranking member of the house ethics committee. >> we will not discuss what happened in the meading but it has come to my attention that the chairman has since betrayed the process by disclosing our deliberations within moments after walking out of the committee. and he has implied that there was an agreement of the committee not to disclose the report. that is untrue to the extent that it suggests the committee was in agreement or that we had a consensus on that, that is inaccurate. and i will say that a vote was

taken, as many of you know, his committee is evenly divided between democrats and republicans, five demz and five republicans. so in order to move something forward, someone has to cross pay lines and vote with the other side which happens a lot by the way and we often vote unanimously. that did not happen in today's vote. i do not want the american public or anyone else to think that mr. best's characterization of what transpired today would be some sort of indication that the committee had unanimity or consensus on this issue not to release the report. that would be an inaccurate portrayal and no one should take that from what they have heard so far. there was no consensus on the

issue. we agreed we would reconvene as a committee on december 5th to further consider this matter. this statement that i have just made is on behalf of all of the democratic members of the ethics committee. thank you. >> ali vitali, take us inside what the betrayal of the process is that she is describing there. >> i don't think we can stress how rare it is to see this level of visibility of this committee and to have any idea of the workers of it it. the ethics committee is a rare committee that is divided evenly among both sides, five democrats and five republicans. for anything foohave happened, someone would have to cross party lines to say no, we should not be releasing this ethics, or yes, we should be releasing thisthics report. it is clear when she says it was a 5-5 vote, that nothing happened and that's what she means by no consensus.

it is clear that she is making the statement because she doesn't want no consensus to mean that the consensus innately was not releasing the report. democrats want to make it obvious that they are in favor of getting this out there. so when she says the chairman guest betrayed the committee, i think she is talking about the fact that he spoke about what the deliberations were in the room or even gave in the instance of one reporter who caught up with him in the hallway, his own rationale for voting not to relose it. in his words, he said he didn't think the committee had the jurisdiction anymore which is actually the same argument he made when he didn't think the ethics committee should vote to release the report because typically when you stop being a member of congress and gaetz has resigned his seat, the jurisdiction of the ethics committee longer applies. i thought it was notable she would say that and also notable

that they will meet after the thanksgiving break. i'm reading the text chain that is pinging all the time but to underscore, she is making the statement because she didn't want people to think that guest was saying that there was an agreement among the group to release it. this is rare for a whole lot of reasons. but the ethics committee is so typically shrouded in mystery. she makes the point that they typically do things unanimously and the fact that this is breaking down along party lines, the fact that they are talking about it publicly, frankly, even the fact that we knew when they were meeting to vote and what they were voting on, it is almost spoiling for a capitol hill press corps that rarely gets to opportunity to know until the committee votes to release what they have been working on. all of this is rare and unorthodox but we are happening it watch in real time as susan

wiles comes out and says this is not decided, just a question mark still and we will come back after thanksgiving and reconvene on it in some form of fashion. >> so ali, our colleague hallie jackson interviewed lawyer for two witnesses who went before the house ethics committee. the lawyer made some important points in interviews. i believe he did an interview with abc news as well. one of them is that the two witnesses that provided testimony to the house ethics committee, his quote was have no political dog in the fight. they are not partisan actors seeking an outcome. the lawyer for the two witnesses to the ethics committee investigation also said that the two witnesses saw matt gaetz have sex with a 17-year-old but didn't think he knew she was 17 at the time. how much more was underinvestigation than the actual sort of heart beat of the federal criminal probe which was

whether or not he knowingly had sex minor? >> we don't know what we don't know. that's why we are seeing the push to have the report released. the ethics committee has been investigating gaetz on and off since 2021. yes, around the allegations of having sex with a minor but also paying for sex and illicit drug use. there were moments people were talking about him going to the house floor and allegedly showing videos to his colleagues of lewd things and saying lewd things on the house floor, conduct unbecoming as a member of congress. all of these things are swirling in the pot. to the question you ask, it's why people want to see the report. they want to know not just what the lawyers and witnesses spoke to the committee about but underlying payments from places like venmo and other things we have heard about in a casual fashion because they are out

there and not under subpoena but when the ethics committee is doing it, it adds the congressional heft of the investigation to it. that's why people are pushing for this . i do think it is notable and there are two more mechanisms in the way this could come out if the ethics committee meets again and someone on the republican side ends up crossing lines. you have democratic congressman don casten who says he will introduce a privileged resolution to try to get the full house to vote on it, an extra pressuring mechanism that would require the majority of house on this. the only time they tried to do this was back in the '90s and it failed. but the difference here is that there is a good number of republicans who are no fans of matt gaetz. i guess i could see a world in which they may want to join a world and vote that way but that would put them in the cross hairs of the speaker and president-elect of the party. so there are fascinating

dynamics here as house republicans have been vocal to me and other reporters on camera about the fact that they are happy gaetz is no longer a member of the buddy and they are happy to have the dirty laundry aired in public view. but whether or not the ethics committee's report will be the vehicle of this seems unclear and also seems unlikely. >> are the sex tapes that republican senators talked about being handed and asked to watch, i believe the republican senator from oklahoma describing shown a video that matt gaetz described as crushing ed drugs, chasing them with energy drinks so he could go all night. is the creation of the videos or sex tapes and the dissemiination, is that something that was investigated by the house ethics committee? >> we are not sure because the committee doesn't say we are investigating this member for

this reason and this and we will let you know the findings in 4 to 6 weeks. they do not tog about what they are doing. it requires us a good amount of reporting to find out if ethics investigations are even being opened. when they are ready to release the findings, that's when you see the committee do what they did today but typically with no fanfare and no reporters outside and no readout of what happened. that's the way that things typically go. because of the fever pitch around them and because gaetz is an attorney general nominee, it changes the fabric of the process. that's why you are seeing, i can't stress enough how rare it is to see the ethics committee members talking at length or at all about what they are doing behind closed doors, and the way the speaker of the house is weighing in, that other members are weighing in is an important thing for us to keep in mind as we go forward here and as the committee says it will meet again on december 5. the other thing that is worth

pointing out and you point out senator mark mullen who used to be a house member, he had critical things to say about gaetz. and then over the weekend, he was on the shows towing the trump line on gaetz and other nominees. i think everyone is coming home to the president-elect at this point. >> which is the oldest story in the trump story. we need to sneak in a break but mary, i want to bresz you on whether there is any reason to suspect where there are videos or images described by the republican senator from oklahoma are something that would be scrutinized as whether or not they were consensual or whether or not that has any intersection with the ability of the department to investigate sex crimes. thank you for your reporting. stick around for us. what could be the last line of defense as trump takes a wrecking ball to the judiciary.

it could be holding the line for all of it. how democrats are moving to bolster and strengthen that guard rail. later in the broadcast, new questions on the secretary of defense selection, mr. pete hegseth and his qualifications for that role. we will tog about that and hear from senator tammy duckworth, an iraqi war veteran and purple heart recipient on hegseth's view that women should stay out of combat. all of that and more after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. the itch and rash of moderate to severe eczema

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tone and it reminded me of those george w. bush years where there was an exasperation that we had to surrender to the frame of the medias and powers at be and we didn't have the ability to carve out our own destiny. i saw that in the time. we put forward arguments, affidavits, showeded him videos, in the cabinet room meeting with mike pence in the days leading up to january 6th and i left quite disappointed that he was not motivated by our --. >> just a quick fact check, david jolly, there was no evidence, there were arguments, but there was no evidence presented to mike pence of fraud which is why mike pence didn't vote to overturn the election. i want you to take me through what this means if republicans line up behind this nomination and confirm gaetz. let me put up a couple of

statistics on what the department of justice does. 1912 people were referred to the u.s. attorneys for human trafficking offenses in 2022, the number of people prosecuted for human trafficking more than doubled from 2012 to 2022 from 805 to 656, that includes the trump years, that is something that is getting more successful during the next presidency. 115,000 people work at the department. this is the crime statistic that trump is inheriting. homicides continue to decline and pay more than 40% in some communities during the first wave. take me through the stakes if republicans line up with matt gaetz. >> those are statistics that

matt gaetz is probably unaware of. i think the election sealed the permanence of trumpism in the country as a movement or party if it wasn't already there. this is a test vote of that permanence because the stakes are so high and because the level of unfitness of matt gaetz is also so high. i still think this may not go through. this would be a kavanaugh hearing on steroids. and i don't think the house ethics committee will release the report. i think mike johnson signalled to the committee yesterday to say we will not do this. they are waiting for their next promotion from mike johnson in the next six weeks. so in this hearing, we could see all types of information come forward. gaetz could ask for the ethics report to be releaseded or fbi files to be released. the senate has asked the fbi to release information on this. the other wild card is susan wiles who lost her pennsylvania seat and she will be a private

citizen. the democrats could ask her to testify on what she knows. this will get white hot not just for matt gaetz who has shown he doesn't care but for the senate republicans you are talking about. the ones i'm most curious about outside of mitch mcconnell who doesn't have anything to care about, he doesn't care what donald trump says about him. he will be concerned about his legacy and probably a hatred for matt gaetz somewhere but what about the members with house experience and those who served with matt gaetz, people we don't talk about, bill cassady from louisiana, certainly mark wayne mullins of oklahoma. but you have a whole list of house members that some of them are close with kevin mccarthy and have a personal disdain for gaetz and also know he is unfit. this is going to get messy fast. vance is working the hill on behalf of his boss but what does donald trump do? i don't think that this goes

through. it will be a dark day if matt gaetz heads the department of justice. wholly unqualified and he will be there for one reason. he will do whatever donald trump asks from the beginning of trumpism, matt gaetz has been the lackey that will execute the list. donald trump will do anything it takes to get gaetz in the position. >> i want to peal the layers back a little deeper with you. i agree that if donald trump wants this to happen, it will happen, that is the republican party that we have been watching for nine years. they are as predictable as the ants that take the crumbs and make the hill. that's what they always do. there are no new stories in republican politics. what is interesting to me, what i'm watching is to see if anyone around trump is savvy enough to understand that the reason trump wants to prosecute his enemies

is because he still smarts from the specter of criminality that hungover his first term. does he really want the specter of criminality to hang over the guy that is going to avenge the specter of criminality that hung over his first term? gaetz is everything trump ran to avenge incapsulted in a 24 hour news cycle. trump using gaetz to prosecute his enemies is running the presidential campaign of the person that beats trumpism next time. it is literally the inverse of what trump thinks he is doing by matt gaetz being there. do you think anyone can have that conversation? >> well, i think susie wiles was surprised by this pick and now has a plan b, c, and d around this. and we have to recognize that donald trump is someone with no personal convictions. he has criminal convictions but

no personal convictions. so it doesn't really matter to him if he nominates someone without personal convictions or even someone with criminal convictions although the case with gaetz ended with no charmgs filed. he is such an immoral leader that none of this matters. chuck thod had a fascinating insight in that trump is putting his people in four corners of the departments where he feels he was misled by what he considers the deep state. now his retribution is to put his people where he wants them. i don't know that the senate goes along with the matt gaetz one. all of the others, if i were to play devil's advocate, i seg seth, they will say he has the military experience and put him

through. tulsi gabbard will have a reason for meeting with assad and they will put her through. there is no redeeming quality to this pick, matt gaetz. there is no agenda other than the enemy's list agenda. it is unsettling for republican senators to vote on someone who we will learn a lot more from. i mentioned the fbi files could be available, susan wiles could be available, matt gaetz' own testimony will be damaging. recall the kavanaugh testimony when we went looking for his college buddy. there are lot of people in gaetz's world. there are others who lost their professional standing in florida because they were within the radius of matt gaetz. i'm still not convinced that even in a trump gop matt gaetz gets through. i hope i'm write but history has proven my wrong. >> it is a fascinating

socological experiment, where is the bottom, is it above or below the matt gaetz line. thank you for starting us off. mary, stick around with us longer. one of the only ways to defend against a gutted department of justice if that comes to pass could be the passing of dozens of biden judicial nominations still pending. house senate democrats and vice president kamala harris could be working overtime to make sure that happens. g overtime to maker that happens black friday football on prime is back. touchdown!

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when president joe biden leaves the white house in two months, one line of defense that remains against whatever comes to pass under donald trump's second presidency, one of those defenses is the federal judiciary, the judges who are in place who will uphold the rule of law in this country. joe biden is attempting to beef up their ranks with a long roster of judicial confirmations before he leaves. with vice president harris holding the power of any tie breaking vote in the senate. harris may now head to capitol hill to defy donald trump in what could be her last major act in office. democrats are bracing for the possibility of close calls in the process as they ambitiously seek to top the 234 judges donald trump secured in his first term. president biden is on the verge of overtaking that number with

219 confirmed already. the thought of being outdone with judicial confirmations clearly getting under donald trump's skin today. he took to truth social to urge republicans to quote show up and hold the line on the number of judges confirmed after election day. joining us now is executive director of protect democracy, ian vasser is here and mary is here as well. i want to get to the judges in a second. but a question i get from people in both parties in and out of media and business, and frankly, in my neighborhood is how bad is it? and i said i will ask you. how bad is the threat to democracy in democratic institutions? >> you know, unfortunately, it's quite severe. i actually am a little bit surprised and alarmed by how the nation doesn't see to be fully digesting what a dire situation

we are in. we have been watching as we have talked about for years, democracy decline around the world and more liberal populous authoritarian movements rise. and donald trump has openly admired some of those in the movement like victor orban and pointed them out as a model for his return to power. the fact that he was democratically elected doesn't change the fact that his opposition to the founding principles of our form of government doesn't make it less alarming. it is a serious situation. i hope we take it seriously so he preserve what happened two weeks ago which is a free and fair election as something we can count on taking place again in two years and four years. >> i was hoping you said something different. i feel that way too. i feel like you see the clarity slipping away by the hour, almost by the news cycle.

there is something normal about coving a confirmation fight and it gets challenging to think of ways to articulate how abnormal it is. it has nothing to do with party affiliation. it has nothing to do with the margins of a victory. the truth is on the question on democracy, trump didn't pretend to care about it or want to preserve it. it emboldened supporters to say american people don't care about democracy. what do you say to that? >> i think what is challenging in this moment is trump won a democratic election. that will provide a degree of normalization of what the president-elect stands for and does because the american people, even if only boy a narrow margin, about 230,000 votes in three states, it was a much closer election than what has been credited in the coverage, the american people chose this direction but what i think democracy represents is not just the selection every two

and four years of voters of who will represent them but the enduring principles of being able to do that continuously. that's why the founders in the constitution provided a set of checks and balances to make sure we as voters when we hand over power to represent us, it is only constrained by a bunch of safe guards that ensure that at the end of the day, shhh safe guard ends with the people on whether they do a good job or bad job in two or four years. so we are faced with a challenge where the results of a democratic election may stand in tension and contrast with the principles and the constitution. i think we as a nation need to figure out how we navigate the tension in the weeks and months and years ahead if we are to preserve self government in the country even after a democratic election elects someone who has shown that he is not committed to those principles.

>> can i ask what people can do? people ask me what they can do and i say do the opposite of what you think the forces against democracy want you to do. don't disengage, don't turn off the tv. don't despair. don't go binge netflix and not go out. help someone in the community. help someone who is terrified of the deportation threat. maybe you will meet someone who is working to shore up protections for vulnerable communities and don't hate. don't hate the people. kamala harris never once criticized a single person who was voting for donald trump. her campaign was importantly focused on the things you and i are talking about and it came up about 230,000 votes short. but so those are don'ts but what are the dos? >> i think it is in the direction you articulated.

in societies in which democracy perishes, people retreat into private personal spaces. they no longer engage in the democratic work of being engaged in communities publicly. that is the risk here that the threats to turn the government against people who may not be sufficiently to the president could show people's willingness to participate in public life and civic engagement. we have to not do that. here's is simple thing that everyone watching can do now. open the email browser. in the to line, fill in as many people of the community you can, friends, relatives, coworkers, people you know from your place of worship, in the body of the email write, i am committed to standing up for the principles of small d democracy in the country and that means we must organize to be active participants in our civic life. i'm committed, will you do it with me and hit send.

>> i love that. >> start creating communities in which you can create communities of conscious that commit to each other that we will not retreat from public life. that is a simple thing that everyone can do now that would be a profound way, in the best spirit of what they will call the habits of the heart to make democracies unique and powerful. >> i want to bring in mary because the fact that we get to talk to you, because of the fact of how extraordinary his first presidency was, i have to take a break but i want to press you on what that looks like and how we give voices to people inside of the agencies most publicly and seemingly targeted by trump. let's make it a break. ian and mary will be here when we come back. l be here when we come back more laughs. more hang outs.

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so you can laugh harder, and stay drier. we've got you, always. always discreet. over 400,000 people with afib have left blood thinners behind with watchman. a safe, one—time implant that reduces stroke risk and bleeding worry, for life. watchman. it's one time, for a lifetime. we are back with ian and mary. mary, are you able to sort of tell us what is going on inside of doj now over the last two weeks? >> well, i can't say everything because i don't like to call up all of my old friends and ask a lot of questions. they know i speak to media sometimes. but i know there are a lot of people concerned about their future, partly because they don't want to be a part of all of the things donald trump has promised and some are afraid they might be fired. it is hard to fire people right now, not with standing that he

wants to enact schedule f that makes almost everyone fireable. that's not the current regime around civil servants. but people with very worried, particularly in areas that have been you know, real political footballs, civil rights division, even before anyone like trump came to the scene, that's already a division that kind of would swing back and forth between administrations. but it really swings wildly when you are talking about someone like trump. this time around, i think his impact and particularly the impact of whoever he appointses as ag, whether it is matt gaetz or someone else will be felt among a broader group. there were a lot of people who left and if a brief only had political appointees on it, the career lawyers would be used to sign. now it could be criminal for lawyers that leave if they are

being asked to bring sham prosecutions. >> and trump ran on retribution and even in fox interviews people like sean hannity and dr. phil tried to get him to say you're not going to do that are you and he would say, yes, i am. how do people protect themselves from becoming tools in what trump has said would be political retribution? >> well, every career prosecutor knows what they have to have to do an investigation and bring a case or take that case to the grand jury. they have to have evidence. so one thing that i think will be a bulwark against donald trump and his attorney general is that there will be people who are unwilling to bring cases where there is no evidence. the fact is it's not going to be matt gaetz or other political appointees who present cases to a grand jury. so there will be resistance to

just unlawful, unsupported, and baseless prosecutions. but there will be people who are willing to look pretty far and push the envelope in order to score some points. >> ian, if you watched the january 6th select committee, you know the anatomy of the politicization of doj look like. what can the agencies do to protect themselves in advance? >> one thing here as notes, people within the department who take an oath to the constitution, who are members of the bar and have obligations as officers of court up hold the rule of law. it is understandable that people are leaving. the people who have those principles are one of the

bulwarks and it is important that they stay and porpt that the american people support those civil servants who are committed to doing their job and so our support so they stay in the roles and keep us from the rule of law society. >> ian, i will put you on the email, put both of you on it. thank you for something tangible. i think everyone is looking for to' dos, so think for that. thank you for spending the hour with us. we will sneak in one more break. .

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another update to tell you about in the ongoing saga of efforts to hold rudy giuliani accountable for the $148 million defamation judgment against him awarded to the two georgia election workers ruby freeman and shay moss. the pair want giuliani held in civil contempt for continuing to falsely accuse them of committing election fraud in the 2020 election according to a new filing from their attorneys. the filing accuses the new york city mayor of making falls claims about him on his live show earlier this month. among the comments he made there were that they quote, quadruple counted votes, and used hard drives to fix the machines. giuliani finally began surrendering some of his belongings and assets in the past week including luxury watches and a 1980 mercedes benz. all of his challenges to handing over the other items will be the subject of a trial set to start

january 16th. we will continue to track that around here. up next for us, more questionses and revelations swirling around donald trump's pick to run the department of defense. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ing! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare

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>> they make us better, they make us stronger and again, what i have seen from our women is quite incredible and this is not hyperbole, i'm telling you what i have seen and i think as

the years have gone by, our women get better and stronger.>> hi again everyone, it is 5:00 in new york, that is our current secretary of defense, lloyd austin on the value and the strength of the brave women who served this country and put their lives on the line every day, what they bring to the united states military, a direct contradiction from what we have heard donald trump's pick to replace him about two weeks ago. >> i'm straight up saying we should not have women in combat rules, it hasn't made us more effective, it has made fighting more complicated, women are great, it's just our institutions don't have to incentivize that in places where traditionally, over human history, men in those positions are more capable.>> that was of course fox news weekend morning show host, pete hegseth , currently the choice to be

donald trump's secretary of defense, he is facing an escalating battle to be confirmed by the u.s. senate, senators from both call the -- political parties having concerns about those comments and over the fact that he confirmed he paid a woman who accused him of sexual assault years ago, although he denies the assault occurred. politico reports, republicans have downplayed and deflected when asked about pete hegseth , arguing trump picked an outsider to shake up the pentagon bureaucracy, trumps team is apparently filling the heat with this nomination, according to two republicans close to trump, the transition team is quietly preparing a list of alternative defense secretary candidates should trump abandoned pete hegseth. meanwhile, nbc news finds that trumps team is working to accelerate efforts to name a

reliably deputy of defense, that is according to two officials familiar with that planning. we start with some of our friends, michele norris is here with me, the founder of iraq and afghanistan veterans for america and host of the independent americans podcast, paul, women in combat, i think there is a feeling that people think these fights have been waged and we are on the fact- based side of them and pete hegseth seems to go back to a different frame on that. >> yeah, it's not 1924, it's not 1824, it is 2024, these are arguments that are settled and last week when we spoke, pete hegseth is the manifestation of policies to drag america backwards and this is a great example, there are combat units that have women involved all around the world come this is established as effective and

commonplace so it is a very radical position, it is out of line with the moderate majority of america, out of line with our pentagon, our allies like ukraine and israel and we have to take a step back and ask people, what is disqualifying, discounted with the payoff that is no public, would you like this person to be the principle of your kids school? when your sons and daughters have to listen to that person and have that person being in charge, i don't think there's too many people being comfortable with this person being the principle of their children's school. why is he becoming the secretary of defense, it is really a ridiculous conversation, and we have to get back to recognizing this is not normal, this is not acceptable and it is not inevitable, donald trump pushed for ronny jackson in his first term and i went down in flames and s -- this seems to be going down a similar path. this is not acceptable from an

integrity standpoint, we should not have public leaders that should have these challenges and positions. >> how does removing women from combat impact readiness? >> it undermines it immediately, you would have to literally remove women who are actively serving right now, the best parallel, people didn't understand you would have to remove people who are serving in units overseas right now, they are in places like syria around the world, so you would have to pull them out of units, you would have to replace them and process them into different units and you are doing this while vladimir putin is licking his chops. this kind of chaos in our military, that should be the one place that is insulated from politics and radical political views and that is what is most disqualifying about pete hegseth, he is a radical political operative and that should be disqualifying.>> michelle, pete hegseth is there probably for a

variety of reasons, he is a television figure , donald trump is drawn to them, he is also someone who seems to have been okay with donald trump's plan to seek revenge against the general, something that not a single news cycle in two weeks since trump has been re- elected has suggested isn't something trump is deadly serious about. your thoughts about this combination, i guess of someone who is not qualified, who is against women serving in combat and who is okay with what has been described by the wall street journal as trumps courage of generals. >> it is a number of issues, when you're talking about retribution against generals, that should be troubling just on its face, but you are also talking about tossing out a significant investment that the military has made in leadership, generals are made,

they are not just appointed, they are made through combat, through experience, so the generals that you have today had experience that they have seen in past wars and they carry that with them, you don't just dismiss that easily and that is true when you are talking about getting rid of women also, the military has made an investment in these women that are serving in combat, very close to the front line. you just don't toss that aside and one of the reasons he's talking about getting rid of generals particularly is because they have signed onto what he calls a woke agenda and trying to make sure that the leadership of the military represents the actual rank and file of the military. so, there are a number of things that he has said or done that really make you think whether you really want to hand over the nation's mightiest military to someone who is bringing these kind of culture wars into the space and deciding to make decisions based on things like this.>> i

want to read from your latest piece about colin powell, when huge groups of people aren't able to reach their full potential, our military can't fully realize its might, neither can our country, he should understand that, he has served in the military with people of color, he has seen their valor in war and anyone who has served in the u.s. military has seen the disparities in the makeup and the rank and file and composition of the military's large leadership. just say a little bit more about what you have written about today. >> when i hear him talk about the so-called woke agenda and trying to get rid of diversity and inclusion and equity programs in the military, my mind went to colin powell, and a story that people might not realize, for years, the military has been largely white and male, that is not because they are the only ones that are qualified, it's often because

they were the only people who were considered, and when he got his first start and later went on to become the first black chairman of the joint chief of staff, the first secretary of state, he got that opportunity from another person who was the first black to hold that position and that was clifford alexander, and he got a list of names and of that list, it was all white men and he said wait a minute, we just went through significant complex in vietnam and korea, i want to see some names that reflect the decorated kernels that should be considered for these positions. the list came back, there were attorneys that said i still don't think this is a full representation of the talent out there, this exercise went back and forth before a fourth list came back to clifford alexander and when i came back, colin powell's name was on that list and that is when he became the general, and clifford alexander later would say multiple times that was not about affirmative action, that was about leveling the playing field and making sure that you

were considering the full spectrum of talent when you were making key decisions about who became generals. so when i hear him make statements like this, it really makes me wonder about whether he understands the importance of making sure that everybody is able to give their fullest to the military when they join the military. and that it's not just about a culture about making people feel good of putting people of color in certain places, it is making sure you are assessing talent and finding talent wherever that is and rewarding that point >> it is such a powerful point, and example, to just, what the heck are we doing? because it feels like, i'm just going to say this, the war against woke makes sense when you see them talking about this

network, but it doesn't make any sense to me when you are talking about the military or the fbi or these very centrist or center-right cultures. what is this really about? >> it is about an extreme political agenda and implementing that agenda across the board and our government starting with the places -- >> but what if it makes it harder to win? >> that is the important downstream effect, but i also think there's another component, pete hegseth has to get through the senate, you asked me who we should be looking to to block this, there are a number of female combat veterans in the senate, so is joni ernst, a republican woman combat veteran and pete hegseth is saying to her, you are not equal to the men who serve in this military and that is a fundamental american value, so what happened to integrity,

what happened to basic american values of equality, because you are saying they are not equal citizens. they don't have the same opportunity to fight and die for the country just like men, that should be the central point we focus on and we press all senators but especially the republican senators who served in the military. >> and who runs that process? >> the senate. everybody.>> where are they, does chuck schumer make that argument? >> this is such a basic fundamental, we have to explain to people that all americans are equal? that is going to be the case across the board in every agency that is starting with the pentagon, we have to remind all-america that all americans are supposed to be equal, because that is what it is about, if everybody has the same right to die for their country in america, that is what it is supposed to be. and just a reminder, it is not about qualifications and about loyalty, it is supposed to be about integrity, being an honorable person that can stand

up in front of our country and our allies will respect and our kids can look up to. i always come back to the principal test, would you be okay with this guy as the principle of your child's school? >> i want to bring into our conversation, iraq war veteran, tammy duckworth, a democrat of illinois, thank you for being with here with us, we are marveling, i guess is the word for it, at where we are as a country and perhaps in a presidential transition where the pick in the year of 2024 to lead the department of defense is openly advocating to remove all women from combat roles in the military. which of course, for folks like yourself who served honorably in this country, but also seems to seek to erase the contributions of women in the military, what are your thoughts about this?

>> i want to second what paul was saying, america's daughters are just as capable of defending our liberty and freedom as our sons, if i was the mom, i would be offended that you would think i sons life is less precious than your daughters lives. frankly, this is about doing the job and the women who have passed a qualifying test, whether it should be an army ranger or helicopter pilot, this is the ability to do the job and defend our nation that we love and frankly, to say that women should not be in combat really shows his lack of understanding of what modern combat is like, there's no forward line that you hide behind and say okay come over here on this site you are in combat but on this side, you are not. if you were in the green zone in baghdad, you were in combat whether you were a supply clerk

or infantryman. frankly, it doesn't even reflect the realities of modern warfare let alone what paul was talking about which is equality and the value of every american of all of us being equal. >> the campaign, it feels like it happened 11 years ago but it has only been two weeks, the country has elected someone who was on the record, in other words, very telling of his own former chief of staff and general, believing that the men and women who died serving our country were suckers and losers, what does it mean in your view that the country elected that person?>> well i'm disappointed obviously, i continue to believe that donald trump is not qualified to be the commander in chief of our nation's military and it shows in his decision with his proposed defense secretary nominee, but that said, i believe strongly in the democratic process and donald

trump won the electoral college in the popular vote and if i were in uniform today i would carry out all lawful orders but not the unlawful ones. and i think that we need to make sure that we keep the checks and balances of our system in place, that is why in the senate we need to step up and do our job and provide that oversight of the executive branch that our founders entrusted upon us.>> how much would you wager that any sort of real and earnest and thorough process absent fear of political retribution from donald trump will take place when it comes to trumps nominees to a future cabinet, at say the pentagon or department of justice?>> well, i have to tell you that i'm not optimistic that my republican colleagues, once they take a majority won't rollover for donald trump, certainly you saw that happened today when they voted to not release the

investigation finding on matt another trump nominee, proposed nominee. but i would hope that there are signs from the republican election of our senator john thune to be their leader, somebody that trump did not want to be the republican leader then maybe there is a little bit of back bone left on the republican side of the senate but we will see what happens, we do know that donald trump is about retribution, he is about enacting revenge, that is not what we want in a president but let's hope our colleagues remember their oath which is not to donald trump but actually to the constitution of the united states. >> donald trump in a first term according to his former secretary of defense, mark esper sought to court-martial, general stanley and admiral

willian for being critics of his, he has the same punishment for people like general millie and others, what would that do to the military if he were to follow through on those threats? >> if he were to try to follow through, i would hope our military officers would oppose it, this is where you get to the unlawful order, as military officers, you're not supposed to carry out unlawful orders, i would hope that the members of the military, each and every one of whom have dedicated their lives to this constitution will remember all enemies, foreign, but domestic and stand up and not allow that to happen. i think there are enough good officers who would not carry out an unlawful order and i would have to have trust in the military that they would do so. >> would it create a standout, what would that happen for them? >> it would probably end their

careers, but at one point, you have to decide, do you allegiance to donald trump or to the nation, that you swore an oath to defend, and i hope they remember that their allegiance is to the united states of america and not any one individual. >> it is extraordinary we are even having this conversation, but thank you for being with us and we will continue to call on both of you, please stick around. when we come back, the elections real-world impact on all of us, but especially the lives of women, many of whom are now stockpiling abortion medication and morning-after pills ahead of the inauguration. we will explore the growing fears over access to reproductive health care in this country next. plus, donald trump's impulses have been unfolding, since his victory two weeks ago, why his team sees the transition as a hostile takeover and how his choices to lead key cabinet agencies could backfire with the voters who filled his

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>> one of the groups opposing you says this, he wants a total abortion ban with no exceptions, he supported vans that would not only criminalize abortions but ban ivf treatments and common birth control, where are you on these issues, is that an accurate assessment of where you are? >> no, i'm pro-life, i said very clearly, i'm a bible believing christian, i believe in the sanctity of every single human life.>> house speaker

mike johnson, when it comes to his views on all those issues, he's just one of the many opponents to reproductive health care and access to abortion healthcare who will be all the more empowered after donald trump is sworn in for his second term in office, it is no surprise that women across the country are taking them literally and preparing for the worst. the new york times reports, across the country, some women are ordering emergency contraceptives, abortion pills or both, wisp, a telehealth provider of medications for reproductive health said that during the five days after the election, it sold more than 10,000 plan details which do not require a prescription. it sold fewer than 5000 pills in the same wednesday through sunday span the week before the election. for their part, antiabortion groups are preparing wish list of restrictive policies they believe the trump administration will fulfill for

them from attacking contraception access to policies that would restrict all abortions. the guardian reports, susan b anthony pro-life americas president, marjorie dannenfelser indicated that her group would work to lay the groundwork for protections in order to go on offense and truly defeat the abortion industry in the long-term, we must strengthen the pro-life, pro-woman, profamily result of the republican party. centered on the inalienable right to life for the unborn child that exists under the 14th amendment. she said in a strategy memo issued earlier this week. joining our conversation, president and ceo of planned parenthood federation of america and planned parenthood action fund, michelle is back with us as well. alexis, when you look at the states where the voters said, i want abortion to be legal in my

state and i want donald trump for president, how have you, over the two weeks of having that information available to you, how have you made sense of that?>> i think that the only mandate that donald trump got on election night was to keep a national abortion ban off of our bodies, the president-elect knows that abortion won on election night, whether it is arizona, colorado, maryland, missouri, montana, new york, across the spectrum, even in florida, abortion was more popular than the president- elect and what that means to us is that people voted to ensure their own bodily autonomy in those states and we always knew that abortion rights are popular and nonpartisan across the board. you don't vote to overturn a ban in missouri just by

winning on democratic votes, you don't win a constitutional amendment in states like kentucky and montana and ohio without ensuring that republican and independents come across the board, there's many of the same people that planned parenthood also sees, the millions of people that come to planned parenthood health centers every single day, they are also bipartisan, they are also people who come from all walks of life, seeking basic access to healthcare. >> alexis, abortion access is more popular than donald trump is a non-deniable reality-based statement, and i wonder if it makes anybody on the abortion healthcare access side contemplate -- i think the right understands he is totally untethered, and the right seems to pump back for the most

extreme and insane things that they want, i mean fetal personhood is so radical, that is what jeopardizes ivf or any family struggling with infertility, but i wonder if you think there's any hail mary effort to go and talk about his promises not to do the most extreme things and some of his utterances on the campaign trial . >> donald trump gave his promise to the american people, he said he reversed his record and said he would not ban abortion and planned parenthood action fund is going to hold him accountable to that everything will day . i grew up, your word is your bond, we are going to interpret any attempt to block access to abortion, through backdoor executive orders or any attacks on planned parenthood for that matter, with failing to keep a

promise to the american people so we feel as though we need to ensure that he understands we are taking him at the current word that he has, which is that he would not ban abortion but not be looking for a national abortion and that is our job to ensure we hold him to that. >> michele, of all of the disappointment on election night, the bright spot is that alexis is describing the abortion access measures in arizona, missouri, new york, 57% of the electorate in florida, it is undeniable that access to abortion healthcare has the support of the majority of the american people, that is not where the supreme court is, that is not where jd vance is, that is not where matt gaetz is. do you think this is sort of at least as we head into the administration, a friction point or do you think trump will be overrun by the

extremists and his own administration? >> i believe it is a friction point and in part because alexis said she heard a promise, people on the other side feel like they heard a promise, too. and they feel like it is coming back with insufficient funds, they are not getting what they thought they were going to get. so they are absolutely going to go to war, they are going to continue to fight for this, in the same way that they tried to regulate clinics out of existence under roe, they will tried to regulate access to abortion pills out of existence in a post roe world and they will try to do this in the legislature, in the courts, try to withhold funding from universities that are prescribing antiabortion pills, they will try to make it difficult for people to access them through telehealth, so yes, it absolutely is a friction point and will continue to be. the other bright spot that

democrats may find in this dichotomy of people voting to support abortion rights and also supporting donald trump is some of the polling that was done to gauge where people were at, specifically on the states that had referendums on the ballot, one of the things people said is that they trusted democrats more to handle healthcare issues and going forward, that is something that will help the democratic party as this fight continues.>> trump did, too. but i want to show both of you, something that happened today, today president joe biden awarded the presidential medal of freedom to cecile richards, this is the picture from the white house, the president said this, with absolute courage and conviction, cecile richards leads us forward to be a nation of freedom, a leader of utmost

character, she has carved an inspiring legacy that enters in her family, the countless lives she has me better and a nation seeking equality, justice and freedom, it is impossible to adequately credit cecile for being in the trenches and waging this fight but your thoughts on today's recognition?>> we are so delighted, we celebrated her today in the office, you know, i have this distinct pleasure of having known her for so long and been mentored by her, having served on her board and being able to ride sidesaddle to the fight and her courage, i think about the fact that now one in three women have been to a planned parenthood health center in their lifetime and the number of supporters that fight on behalf of reproductive freedom has gone from 2 million when she was a leader, up to 19

million today and i think about the power, not only of what it means to have that agency to walk into a health center and take control of your life and your body and imagine your future for yourselves but also to know that you are going to return and you are going to stay in the movement and the fight, she deserves so much credit, we are just thrilled for her and for her family and her legacy, will go beyond.>> thank you for spending some time with us today, when we come back, one trump ally is calling it a hostile takeover, how it should have been a peaceful and orderly transfer of power has already gone off the rails. that is next. is next

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>> america has given us an unprecedented and powerful mandate. >> the president has won a mandate.>> we just got an overwhelming mandate from the president of this country. >> president trump had a huge mandate from the american people, not only the popular vote, they were historic.>> you know we had historic kind of numbers, especially for the president.>> who's going to tell him, foxnews said there was no mandate, so trump put it, a few nickels in the

mandate jar, republicans have collectively interpreted, or at least parroted the collective interpretation of the results of the 2024 election as a mandate, permission to give donald trump free reign on basically anything, what did he say, to go wild with whatever he told rfk to do. and he won, decisively in the electoral college, the country is split in half, most voters voted for somebody else, trumps margin of victory in the popular vote was historically slim but his transition team is running with this anyway, this mandate justification as they carry out what one trump ally described to the washington post as a hostile takeover of the federal government, that includes outright ignoring many of the rules and practices intended to guide a peaceful and un-chaotic transfer of

power, coordination with the general services administration, organizing with the state department on calls of foreign leaders and refusal, at least so far to allow the fbi to conduct background checks on hundreds of his potential appointees. beyond all that, trumps so- called mandate is already changing the face of washington, d.c. gone are the days apparently when such alarming red flags would put cabinet nominees in danger of not being confirmed, this new world or those around trump field correctly that they can do whatever they want when it comes to senate republicans, things have changed. let's bring into our conversation, senior political analyst, matt dowd, and michele is here as well, first from the results, how did the country vote two weeks ago ? >> very split as we found out and we are finding out as the votes are counted, donald trump is going to have 1.5% margin of

victory, as less of the votes are counted, which is one of the most historically slim margins, same is true in the senate battleground states where he is averaging about the same, 1.5%. i think we keep forgetting, it's not just the republicans, i would say that are misreading the selection who are claiming a mandate was some huge thing when it wasn't, when donald trump is not going to have won the majority of the vote, also many democrats have misread it, who are now cowering, like what happened, what is going on? how did we lose so badly? and you and i have had this conversation, i want to remind folks that joe biden had a 40% job approval rating, every single president or vice president running under a president gets the number of

that approval. vice president harris is going to get over 48% which means she over performed by eight points and donald underperformed by eight points in a normal election cycle, so i think this was about the economy, it was at the people's dissatisfaction with a large part of the public with the economy here and they were blaming joe biden for what he did and we could talk about why that was or what happened. but in the end, donald trump underperformed and the vice president over performed in a very, very tight election and now we've had three of these in a row, we've had three elections in a row that were basically decided by less than two points or four points in the course of this, this is the first time that has happened since the 1870s and 1880s that we've had that close of an election in a series of things and i would remind people all the selections were in the aftermath of the civil war where the country was

incredibly divided.>> what does that prescribed for democrats? >> i think they have to look at themselves and understand what they did wrong in that, there's many things that can correct language and messaging and all of that, but i think one of the main things they have to understand is that there messaging was way off as regards to the economy, they try to convince people rationally about where the economy was and they pointed out these statistics about the unemployment rate and job growth, when people emotionally felt a different way. and i think the biden administration, especially through the messaging thing which i always thought was a mistake, they basically branded themselves with a negative in people's minds, so you have to understand what happened in the election before you can fix the problem and to me the initial problem was they were way off on their economic messaging, long before the vice president became the nominee.>> i guess,

the opposite of that is also instructive and prescriptive, that donald trump won in a free and fair election, democracy worked, the people chose, and it is true that there hope for what he would do to their personal economy is the largest rationale. so to the degree that matt gaetz, the top of the justice department doesn't hurt the economy, they will tolerate that, but there's going to be a friction point again and i don't know if it is trying to remove unlawfully the fed chair, i don't know if it is the impact on the economy from a large-scale mass deportation, i don't know what it is, but it feels like even in his umbrella or his reality, doing what he wants to do it it hurts the economy will be in the braking system.>> and the story you opened with, that one of his allies called it a hostage

takeover, because there were worries that circumvented checks have been bounced, so much of this is how people are lensing things and what we also got wrong, we didn't understand your point, the grievance is, how powerful they were, that they will overlook everything else. and i think, of course like you, everybody comes up to me and says what do we do? and the best i think we can do and i said this right after the election, manage up from the bottom, that means if you are a voter and you voted for harris, be able to say, he has done some good things, i like his pick of secretary of state and ambassador to israel and ambassador to the u.n., his commerce pick, he is looking out for treasury, but at the same time, say yes, my hair is

on fire about matt gaetz, if you voted for trump, don't just defend it and say well, he's not going to get picked anyway, let's just call it like we see it. >> let me just press back with all the love i feel for you, i get it, the brain is adaptive and it tries to adapt to these circumstances, but i think you were the first person to say he will get swept up in a rico prosecution because he has run a business all his life. when the reporting came out that he was a fascist to the core, we spent a lot of time -- >> but, the matt gaetz thing confirms that. >> i'm not on x, i don't know exactly how they feel, but let's just look for the silver lining. >> i'm saying, by the way, you

can say two things in the same breath, nobody was more passionately against donald trump and nobody is more worried than me, but what i'm also trying to do is say maybe we can also say this is okay also, matt gaetz is a terrifying pick, if he is selected, all of our fears are very real. >> by the way, if you're a woman who suffered a sexual assault in the military, pete hegseth is terrifying . >> and what everything to people who are sitting there who are depressed and can't get out of bed, we are going to be vigilant, we are going to watch this, and i'm not running from fear, i'm going to say whatever needs to be said but also at the same time, and maybe voters from the bottom up, if there is a little like, maybe 100% is not wrong, that is what i'm trying to do, if i'm talking to people out there, i'm telling

you personally, i'm not going to be anything but vigilant, i'm going to speak up and continue to speak up but i'm also going to say that maybe, did we miss something? that's the only way i know how to approach things and that is from my heart.>> and i think that is what you can do.>> i wanted to just add something and i don't want to disagree with the brilliant donny deutsch but 49% of the voters did not vote for what they are seeing, i would say 40% voted for what they are seeing. there's 10% that basically were dissatisfied with inflation and the economy and thought they couldn't trust him and thought they were too extreme but basically the status quo was not working, so i'm going to do this again. in spite of my fears of things he may do, and i think that is the voters that are concerned about women's healthcare, that are concerned about democracy but basically the price of a hamburger and the price of eggs

was more important, and feeding their children, then all of these things that were told about the threat to democracy. the second thing is, basically, they voted for donald trump but in state after state, they voted for progressive democrats statewide, in arizona, and a progressive democrat in nevada, they voted for a progressive democrat in wisconsin, all across the board, once they were done punishing joe biden and the administration, they started weighing all these things and i would remind viewers, who may be in a fetal position like what happened? it was two years ago that democrats overwhelmed in election after election after election in a swing state and put in place a series of democratic institutions, candidates in michigan, in wisconsin, pennsylvania who are basically building up democracy

in all this. yes, we should understand this but basically don't over read what happened in the selection and don't think that the democrats are somehow hiding in a bunker and they can't win elections, they are still winning and if republicans in the house on the same day donald trump won in a landslide, are basically not going to pick up a single house seat. the house is going to be basically exactly where it was before election, with a bare minimum majority. so i think democrats should be shy about things they can talk about.>> can i just say something here?>> this is a really important point, we have to be vigilant but both sides, we are not going to get there, if we get to the point where we can't get out of our trenches, i don't care which side it is, maybe there is a sliver that is okay on this side, that is my

point, in order for us to move forward, because i have people coming up to my daughter in school, saying your dad, how could he not vote for trump? as opposed to coming up and putting their arm around her and saying it is going to be okay, that is coming from both sides.>> have you ever seen jerry maguire when tom cruise storms out of the locker room, i feel like this is the beginning of the beginning, not the beginning of the end. michele, i owe you the rest of the time, i'm going to sneak in a break and we will be right back. back. smells like flowers to me, man. thank you, zeke. ♪ lalalalala. ♪ humana medicare advantage plans. carry this card and

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>> michele noris. >> i was just going to note, i want to reach back to what matt was saying about the reasons the turnout is as close as it winds up being, that we need to understand that there was another factor, the selection and outcome was not just about grievances about joe biden and the price of eggs, there is another factor that is very imported and it speaks to why the use of the word mandate is overused. there were a number of voters, we don't know what the percentage is but a number who voted for donald trump because they could not bring themselves to vote for a candidate who was a woman or person of color and it's easier to talk about the economy than it is to talk about american tribalism that we need to admit to that and take the lessons particularly for democrats if they look at someone like the mayor of tulsa who was elected, another person

who is a very progressive black man who was elected because he repeatedly said i am a historic candidate, i want to support everybody in the city of tulsa. as a person of color, he felt like he needed to do that to basically lean into the tribalism and headwinds he would face. the reason i say this is because when trump thinks he has a mandate, is not just that people were voting for him, in some cases they were voting against someone else, which means he doesn't have the currency he thinks he perhaps has, he will act like that but i don't think that as many voters as he thinks were looking for this kind of chaos right now, were looking for these kinds of nominees. were looking for someone who is trying to dismiss background checks, we are looking at someone who has not even sent anyone to any of the federal agencies as he is planning his transition, americans generally, even though they disdain government and may not like it, they wanted to run it efficiently and they don't

necessarily want somebody to come in with a sledgehammer and throw things off in the way he is intending to do this. >> final word? >> go ahead. >> final word, i worry about everything that i said i was worried about the last nine years, i also want people to have the ability to help and if something good happens, we can say it, and on the trump side, don't sit there and just defend your candidate and say, i told you. raise your hand and say matt gaetz is frightening, let's try to somehow always give a little nod to the other side. >> i would say as a final word also, we are spending so much time talking about sexual allegations and fbi checks and these candidates, i would think we need to bring the conversation back to the american people as well. and think about the voters themselves because we drifted some distance from that and i think a lot of people are

watching, god bless you if you are still watching, and i think they are saying wait a minute, what about me? even when we are talking about pete hegseth , we should be talking about the veterans, not just the man who wants to lead the department but veterans, the housing issues, the high rate of suicide, we need to bring that conversation back to the ground.>> there's something about the three of you together that is stitching my hurt soul back together, so i would like to make this a regular thing as the three of you are willing, it is hard to say no on live tv, we will reach out to you after the show. thank you for this, a quick break for us, we will be right back. right back

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