putting billions into -- we have always conditioned. i have conditioned on military aid. if you want it you cannot starve children. you cannot bomb schools. and i think that the american people and the members of the democratic caucus, i think that netanyahu, take the money and reject every proposal coming from the biden administration or anybody else to protect civilian lives. i think that is the bottom line as to why we are seeing more and more opposition to the military support for israel. ition to the support for israel that is all in on this wednesday night. good evening, alex. >> there's too much happening in the world. >> always. >> thank you, my friend. today the house ethics

committee deadlocked on the question of whether to release its report on the alleged misconduct of trump's pick for attorney general matt gaetz. the vote reportedbrokdown along party lines with all five democrats voting to release the report and all five republicans voting against it. the committee is now set to meet again on december 5th to discuss next steps, but this is all happening as new details about matt gaetz's conduct have started to trickle out in the press. abc news has now reportedly obtained records given to the ethics committee which show gaetz paid more than $10,000 to two young women who later testified to the committee. an attorney for those two women tells nbc news that those records appear to be exhibits his clients went through with the committee to identify which payments from gaetz had been for sex. meanwhile "the new york times" has obtained a fairly detailed diagram from federal investigators that reportedly shows the tangled web of

payments between gaetz and various individuals, including those two women who testified to the house ethics committee. now matt gaetz denies those allegations and nbc news has not independently obtained those records. it's very unclear what the ethics committee is going to end up doing here, but it certainly seems like the pressure that trump and house speaker mike johnson are putting on house republicans is working. house republicans seem pretty committed to protecting matt gaetz and the question now is will senate republicans do the same? as a reminder, it would take four republican senators to sink gaetz's nomination, assuming all the senate democrats vote against him. to that end, there are a few key senators worth focusing on. first this is thom tillis, a republican of north carolina. senator tillis sits on the senate judiciary committee, which is going to be the first body to take up the gaetz nomination in the next congress, and senator tillis is

up for reelection in 2026. in a state where democrats have been gaining some real momentum, despite trump's victory this year democrats swept statewide races for north carolina's governor, lieutenant governor, secretary of state, attorney general, and superintendent of public schools. that political reality has to be weighing on senator tillis as he decides what he is going to do about matt gaetz. someone with precisely zero democratic support. tillis may also be bothered by the fact gaetz himself has referred to senator tillis as an america last republican senator. here's what senator tillis had to say about gaetz's nomination a few hours ago. >> reporter: should he address the allegations, then? >> my posture is that every

nominee, whether they are biden's in the last administration, or president trump, deserve a process. every member should meet with them regardless whether they're a no vote or yes vote. i met with a supreme court nominee that i had every intention of voting against and did. people should meet and go through a respectful professional process. it's pretty straightforward. >> reporter: but you're meeting with him today, just to clarify? >> i intend to meat with congressman gaetz. >> make of that what you will. two other senators worth keeping an eye on, senator susan collins of maine and senator lisa murkowski of alaska. senator collins is up for reelection last year in a state kamala harris won by seven points. senator murkowski has made a name for herself as an independently-minded lawmaker and both senators were personally attacked by matt gaetz in 2020 over their refusal to rubber stamp amy coney barrett's nomination to the supreme court. >> here we have murkowski and

collins rejecting the duties that they have as senators and if they do that, their voters should reject them. if they are unwilling to do their job and take a vote on who the president nominates, they should not have the privilege of continuing to serve in the senate. >> lisa murkowski voted for amy coney barrett. it's anyone's guess how she's ultimately going to come down on matt gaetz. just yesterday she continued to resist the idea of being a rubber stamp for donald trump. >> i would like to see our committees do their full job. i'm not interested in a process that would just say well, because the president has named him and you have republican chairs coming into the new congress, that we just move people out. there needs to be legitimate vetting. >> one other senator worth keeping an eye on is this guy, oklahoma senator mark wayne

mullen. he served in the house of representatives alongside matt gaetz and you will be shocked to learn matt gaetz did not endear himself to mark wayne mullen calling him a disgrace to the republican party and mullen has shared some an anecdotes about matt gaetz last year. >> the media didn't give him the time of day to after he was accused of sleeping with an underage girl. there's a reason why no one in the conference defended him, because we had all seen the videos he was showing on the house floor that all of us had walked away with the girls he slept with. he would brag about how he would crush ed medicine and chase it with an energy drink so he could go all night. this is obviously before he got married. so when that accusation came out, no one defended him. >> that was a year ago, but this week president-elect trump has turned up the pressure on

senators like markwayne mullin. on monday trump posted a growing message about mullin on his social media site calling him a great fighter while also reminding senator mullin trump won every district in mullin's homestate of oklahoma and trump concluded by saying mullin is taking very good care of that very special state and i'm there watching over it. yesterday after that less than subtle message from the leader of his party, here was markwayne mullin on the gaetz nomination. >> i think the president wants a hammer at the do j and sees matt gaetz as a hammer and all these other appointments. he's very confident where they're at and can deliver the administration he's wanting. his picks have been maybe unconventional, but we hired an unconventional president. the american people wanted that. they don't want politics as usual. they want someone that's going to shake up washington, d.c. >> he's a hammer. he's unconventional. it is a radically more generous

assessment of matt gaetz than anything markwayne mullin has said before. i wonder why? today matt gaetz was on capitol hill to meet with republican senators where he was escorted by the president's second in command, vice president-elect j.d. vance. >> the senator has been giving me a lot of good advice. i'm looking forward to a hearing. folks have been very supportive saying we'll get a fair process. so it's a great day of momentum for the trump-vance administration. >> joining me now is it allie vitaly, the capital news correspondent for nbc news. have you heard any scuttlebutt about how those meetings went? >> reporter: we didn't hear that they went badly and i think that's the notable thing here, alex, because you saw and

played the conversation and the fact gaetz says he wants an open and fair process and all that is an important piece of context as we try to piece together where these key votes might come from for gaetz, but it seems like he was methodically ticking through key members of people in his meetings today while also meeting with senator joni ernst and john thune. he's ticking through some critical republicans and i think the fact that they are showing a consistent commitment to going through the process with gaetz already shows the way the overton window on capitol hill is shifting when it comes to someone who on the house side of this building has very few friends and many people who would like to see not just gaetz's nomination be utterly tanked, but to see his dirty laundry sort of dragged through the streets on capitol

hill. the house ethics committee was doing their part in considering whether or not the ethics committee report they have been doing into him on and off the last several years was ultimately going to be released. they didn't reach any resolution on that today. we're watching a typically shrouded in mystery process from the ethics committee sort of spill into public view. committee members are saying the other has betrayed sort of the code of secrecy that that committee tends to operate on. so we're watching this on the senate side play out in somewhat normal fashion and on the house side we're watching sort of the norms over there fray over this nomination. >> ali, i wonder how much you're reading into the ethics committee being a bellwether for the larger republican party because there are some normy- ish republicans who all effectively voted i'm going to say for matt gaetz in voting

tonight release the ethics report. particularly, i'm talking about david joyce and andrew gab arino. the fact they're in line with trump on this, does that signal anything to you? >> reporter: this is where it gets a little convoluted and i don't want to put this in hill ease or anything like that, but the ethics committee is this really fascinating organism on capitol hill. it's one of the only committees that is five and five, five democrats and five republicans. it's a committee that really operates on decorum and the fact no one leaks what happens in those meetings. the reason that you had the ranking democrat on the committee, susan wild, saying the chairman on the committee, congressman guest, had betrayed their sort of code of conduct is because guest came out of the meeting and basically told the press hey, we didn't decide on a resolution. we didn't decide whether or not to release the gaetz ethics

report. so just by saying what was talked about in the room, it's viewed as a betrayal. the fact we even know when this committee is meeting and what they are meeting about is really atypical for the way the house ethics committee actually works on capitol hill. a lot of the things we've seen in this process are not the traditional way we do them or see them on the him, but also the fact the house speaker, mike johnson, weighed in really early and said he didn't want to see the house ethics committee release this ethics report. the reason he said that, yes, for politics reasons. he is clearly aligned in lock step down to the walkout at the wwe fight with the president- elect, but also typically if you're not a member of congress anymore, the ethics committee stuff goes away. their jurisdiction no longer applies. so technically that's true with gaetz, but because of the extenuating circumstance, the high stakes, and there are some rare precedents for the ethics

committee deciding after the fact to release investigations, all this now suddenly applies and again, we're watching norms be frayed in realtime here. >> yeah. most people leave congress and don't get their ethics reports released because they're just leaving congress. they're not going on to become attorney general of the justice department. thank you, my friend. joining me now to put some great perspective on all this is my friend and former colleague john heilman, a columnist and podcaster for pocket news and a great american. john, what does this feel like to you as you hear the sound of people like kevin kramer, markwayne mullin, people who have been out there in the past saying mark gaetz is not a good guy, but now saying well, he's a hammer, a maverick, a guy that can get it done for trump?

how do you read it? >> a few years ago on a television show called "the circus" we covered the brett kavanaugh nomination and i remember very vividly in the closing days of that flying up to new hampshire and chasing susan collins around spending time with you and the sound of susan collins, lisa murkowski, jeff flake expressing grave concerns, real serious concerns and then them going out and voting for the nominee anyway, the sense memory is that and the ptsd is that, which is you can be cynical and say a moment when susan collins announces she's deeply concerned about something, she's quite likely to overcome those concerns in the end and vote for the person, do the thing that she's concerned about. i have sat here since last wednesday when the immediate reaction of a lot of people was these three nominees, gabbard, gaetz, and hegseth, particularly gaetz, are unconfirmable. they're unconfirmable. they will never get confirmed. i have spent the time since

then in vain searching for someone who can point to an example when the republicans of the united states senate have ever stood up to legitimate hard core pressure of donald trump. i'm still waiting. if someone has an example i've forgotten, on a recorded vote. there have been occasionally on some foreign policies where someone pressured trump on something, ukraine or whatever, but on a recorded vote where donald trump has come out and said, "i want this. i need this and if i don't get this, first i'm going to give you all the positive pressure, please, please, please do this and then eventually we'll get to the threat." you read that truth social post about senator mullin. we'll hear a lot more about that and start looking at the united states senators who are up in the class of 2026, 2028. all those people have been terrified of donald trump's sway over his base and they're electorates from the moment he became the republican nominee in 2016. what has changed? he is now a more powerful force in the republican party than he

was then. i don't understand the logic by which other than rationality like why would you vote against these nominees, vote against matt gaetz, for all the obvious reasons, but i don't think it's at all a guarantee any of them will vote against matt gaetz in the end regardless of what's in this ethics committee report. >> that is not to give those republicans a pass. >> no. quite the contrary. >> because we're not talking about brett kavanaugh here. we're talking about matt gaetz, who is a different animal entirely in terms of politics. >> 100%. >> not just in terms of the sexual assault allegations and the swirl, but what he represents in terms of dismantling the federal government and weaponizing the justice department. given that, john, we had ali on talking about the back and forth in the house ethics committee. there's this report that has this potentially explosive material in it. a democrat on the house ethics committee could go to the floor of the house and enter it into the public record. it would be a branch of protocol like we've never seen

before, but it is allowed and it would put it in the public eye. i sort of understand why democrats see themselves as the guardrails of protecting institutional integrity, but we're also talking about matt gaetz at the department of justice. >> right. >> do you see any way in which democrats start playing a different kind of baseball in this moment? >> i think it's as much about there is a decorum and precedent and institutional, but really what it's all about is fear and democrats are unfortunately in a lot of cases afraid if they get into the ring, it's the you don't want to get down in the mud with the pig because you get dirty and the pig likes it, it's the same thing. they had that same attitude. they're a little afraid to play that kind of brass knuckle politics because they're a little worried they'll get beat up and they've seen republicans do this for so long they think they're better at it, tougher, meaner, more willing to break

the rules, bite and pull hair. there's a little bit of that fear. i think the most important two things about this whole thing that people have to keep remembering, when people say these nominees are not qualified, they are perfectly qualified for what they are being put in there for. they are being put in there not to run the departments, but to wreck these departments by the standards of what donald trump and steve bannon and others are trying to do, deconstruct the administrative state. steve bannon is out in new york tonight donald trump is a blunt force instrument applying blunt force trauma to the system. they want to destroy the system. they're very well qualified for that. this is all about the thing that lisa murkowski put her finger on. she understands donald trump wants the senate to be the douma, a rubber stamp institution that will give him what he wants whenever he wants it and that is what this is about. >> totally. >> this has been about humiliating the senate and forcing it to do things he doesn't want to do so he can

openly say you're now mine. >> it matters who is our attorney general. >> of course. of course. >> it matters about the ethics, but really this is a bellwether for the rest of the trump administration and the degree to which the legislative branch -- it is a low key constitutional crisis. can we take irresponsibility to advice and consent, senate? give it to me. that's what trump's saying. >> keep in mind there are all kinds of lawyers who share the deconstruct the administrative state view, that if matt gaetz were to go down, you will get a less morally repugnant version of matt gaetz, but someone with the same goal to be the same instrument of donald trump, to weaponize the justice department, tear down the rule of law. that's going to be the attorney general. it's just a question whether you have to get stuck with one who is apparently in favor of having sexual intercourse with women who are either underage or on the edge.

look at those things you had up earlier, some of the notations of what those payments were for. one of them is noted as joy. >> oh, i just can't even comment. i'll leave that one for the commercial break. >> it's so gross. >> john heilman, thank you for your time. >> sure. coming up, donald trump has picked wwe co-founder linda mcmahon for education secretary and has some mighty big plans for that agency that might not be all that legal. but first, new reporting on who exactly is going to pay for trump's handouts to the rich and the certain political peril republicans are setting themselves up for. stay with us.

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the fifth pillar of my plan is to make the trump tax cuts permanent. they are massive tax cuts, biggest ever, permanent, and to cut taxes even more. >> donald trump has been very clear that his signature 2017 tax cuts are here to stay, the same tax cuts that the center on budget and profile priority says are on track to give the top 1% a $61,000 tax cut next year compared to $70 as in 7-0 for the lowest earning households and to pay for that staggering redistribution new reporting in the "washington post" this week reveals that

trump's advisers and congressional allies have begun preliminary discussions about making significant cuts to medicaid, food stamps, and other federal safety net programs that benefit the poorest americans. if you're wondering how that be might work out, remember the last time republicans tried to cut medicaid back in 2017. dozens of disabled activists, some on ventilators and in wheelchairs, held a die-in outside majority leader mitch mcconnell's office. the public backlash against this bill was so strong it helped sway enough republican senators to doom its passage. joining me now is the former bernie sanders campaign manager in 2020 and founder and executive director of more perfect union. thank you for being here. first, can we disabuse the public of some notions about who actually is on medicaid and on food stamps just beginning with the fact republican-led states have some of the highest medicaid enrollments in the country, 3.8 million people in texas, 3.6 million people in

florida? to what degree do you think that's even factoring into republican plans on this and to what degree do you think it's a liability? >> right. they're inflicting unnecessary misery and pain on a particular group of people, 70 million people nationwide, but to the people on medicaid, infants and children, disability people you've shown already, people on long term care, people who have long term sickness, including cancer, people who are in between jobs, pregnant women, all foster care, all kinds of things medicaid helps provide a back stop for and as a society needless to say, we need a healthy and humane society and we all benefit from some degree of healthcare for everybody and when you're inflicting pain on 70 million people, they'll find savings on medicaid. how do you get savings out of medicaid? cut people out. give them no healthcare. why are we doing all this?

you mentioned we got to give estate taxes to the very rich people. we got to cut the corporate rate. this is insanity. i know the house and senate republicans have long had these plans. >> they've had their knives out for the social safety net. this is going at it with garden shears. food stamps, 42.1 million people a month receive food stamps according to the u.s. department of agriculture. that is 12.6% of this country. i think there are real misunderstandings and half truths about who needs help. a lot of people need help. by the way, the biggest portion of recipients of food stamps are white people. again, i'm not saying trump should only be looking at policy that affects his supporters or doesn't affect them, but there is a narrative in republican policies that it's people of color or people in urban areas that are loafing off the federal government. first that is not true, period,

and second, they got the picture wrong. can you talk about what we're trying to do in terms of establishing work requirements here or creating more stringent guidelines by which people can access these programs? >> i'm glad you said the words work requirements because that always gets any goat and it pains me because you hear republicans talk about this in those terms and the truth of the matter is if you are really upset and angry about wanting to reform food stamps, you know what we should be focused on? you've got people who work at walmart. they work at mcdonald's. they work in a whole variety of sectors, taco bell, burger king. look at the rolls of people on medicaid and food stamps working. today walmart reported record earnings for themselves and yet they have employees on food stamps. first, that's unnecessary. if you want to start reforming food stamp programs, we go tax walmart and make sure that they

are providing both a living wage for their employees and that would help solve some of this problem, right? why cannot walmart provide a living wage when employees now have become an issue for the federal government and now they want to take it away from people who are already struggling, already trying to barely scrape by? it is inhumane and unnecessary cruel infliction of pain. >> people who are working full time should not have to depend on food stamps to eat. that's just a basic -- >> and yet they do. they're working at dollar general now on food stamps. >> that is what we're talking about here in america. that is a fundamental economic problem we need to solve. the reality of these tax cuts, the top 1% are going to maybe get $61,000 in tax benefits. the middle quintile, people making 53 to 91,000, $910. look at that jump, 61,000 to $910. do republicans have an

argument? do you expect them to try and make the argument this is a necessary tax cut? >> you know how they'll do it. we have to be prepared for this because they'll play smoke and mirrors. they'll throw out a lot of candy to very wealthy people and they'll combine it with some small pockets of popular no-tax on social security. if you do no-tax on social security, bankrupt social security just to be clear, but no tax on social security. who pays no taxes on social security? it's the rich people. no tax on tips. he mentioned that in the campaign. maybe even a child tax credit. they might throw it in there just to say hey, democrats, how you going to vote against this? haven't you been talking about caring about people on overtime? no tax on overtime. we have to be clear about our argument and i think we have on outflank them. while we oppose them, we should be coming out with ideas. if you care about social security, donald trump, raise the cap and increase the

benefit rather than the way you want to do it? on a whole bunch of issues, overtime, why don't we expand people who are eligible for overtime? we need to outflank them and expose the very dangerous tax cuts who will benefit the rich. >> thanks for your time tonight. still ahead tonight, donald trump chose former wwe executive linda mcmahon to lead the department of education. what exactly does he expect her role to be? well, it involves a smackdown of sorts and it also involves a bible. that's next.

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yesterday donald trump named his pick for secretary of the department of education, linda mcmahon. on its face this appears to be far from trump's most concerning staffing decision. mcmahon served in trump's first administration as the head of the small business administration. she briefly served on connecticut's state board of education in 2009, but she is perhaps best known for stunts like this, ones that have gone viral since trump's announcement because mcmahon co- founded world wrestling entertainment or wwe and was often in the ring herself for

what we'll call skits. now nearly all of trump's staffing announcements so far have been a circus, but if mcmahon's ascent to the top of the education department seems particularly unserious, it's because donald trump does not take that department seriously. this is the vision for the department of education that trump outlined while running for a second term. >> we'll have one person plus a secretary and all the person has to do is are you teaching english? are you reaching arithmetic? what are you doing? reading, writing and arithmetic and are you not teaching woke, not teaching woke, a very big factor. >> one person and a secretary. as a candidate, trump proposed abolishing the department of education shrinking it down to a husk so that children meeting saved from woke indoctrination. the president-elect said he

wants to weaponize it against people of color with the goal of abolishing woke. >> i will direct the department of justice to pursue federal civil rights cases against schools that continue to engage in racial discrimination and schools that persist in explicit unlawful discrimination under the guise of equity will not only have their endowments taxes, a portion of the seized funds will be used as restitution for victims of these illegal and unjust policies. >> aside from the antiwoke agenda, the centerpiece of trump's education piece is this. >> sending all education and education worker needs back to the states. we want them to run the education of our children because they'll do a much better job of it. you can't do worse. >> for the record, this is what the states are doing with their departments of education right now. >> we're excited to announce a new office in the oklahoma

state department of education. it will be the office of religious liberty and patriotism. for too long in this country we've seen the radical left attack individuals' religious liberty in our schools. we will not tolerate that in oklahoma. >> that is superintendent ryan walters who has been buying trump-branded bibles for use in classrooms announcing a new office of religious liberties that will among other things force students to watch a video of him praying. in texas education officials advanced a plan this week to incorporate material from the bible into lesson plans. so that's the conservative agenda. gut the federal department of education, weaponize it against low income and minority decisions and leave education decisions to the states that want to blur the line between church and state. last month when donald trump called education the civil rights issue of our time, he might have been onto something. i'll talk to melissa murray

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our once great educational institutions from the radical left and we will do that. >> president-elect trump has outlined a vision for the future of american education, one that includes eliminating wokeness, slashing funding for schools that oppose his policies, infusing public school curricula with christianity and dismantling the department of education. joining me now is melissa murray, professor of law at nyu and co-host of the indispensable strict scrutiny podcast. help me understand if any of this can be stopped in the courts. first, just the whole church and state thing, how easy is it for trump to reintroduce christianity into public school curricula at large? >> last week in louisiana there was a challenge to a louisiana law that requires the ten commandments to be prominently displayed in public school classrooms. a judge in louisiana enjoined that law, said it clearly

violated precedence demanding separation of church and state. that case is going to go to the 5th circuit. we already know about the 5th circuit, the farm league for the supreme court. right now we have a number of 5th circuit judges auditioning to be the replacement for justices when they step down and then from there it will go to the supreme court where that challenge to that law is geared to be the vehicle for the 1960s case that said you can't have prayer. we'll have the oklahoma superintendent on with a trump bible in every classroom. these are very clearly targeted at challenging the line between church and state and ultimately sending those cases to the federal courts where in his first administration donald trump made sure that it was stocked with movement conservatives. so they're primed and ready to

undo these precedents and from there they'll go to the supreme court where donald trump has appointed a third of those justices and there's a conservative 6-3 supermajority and we'll see if we get to live in a multi-faith plural democracy. >> to say nothing of the fact this has been on the right's agenda for a long time. the woke part is the most current expression of their antiinclusive, anticivil rights agenda, right? i just wonder when trump says, "i'm going to slash federal funding for any schools that don't comply with my antiwoke agenda," i assume there could be discrimination lawsuits in there. this is so against the sort of tide of civil rights that has been part of our nation's history in recent years, but the supreme court has not been particularly interested in upholding. >> i almost feel the religion stuff has a better chance being struck down. >> tell me why. >> so for years the right has stoked and basically

manipulated the promise of brown versus education to stand for this principle that what brown is really about is color blind education like race doesn't matter at all, which is why you can strike down affirmative action and say because brown mandates it. brown says you can't think about race at all. so if you take that frame of mind, obviously efforts to expand diversity in schools, efforts to provide equity or to bring in viewpoints that historically have gone unventilated, all of those things now seem like they are color conscious, race conscious and therefore, constitutionally impermissible. we've already seen this with the dismantling of affirmative action. we are going to see even more of it. it's going to go into the corporate sphere. it's definitely going to be something in education both k through 12 and higher education. this is where this is going. it's an assault on this idea of a pleural multiethnic multifaith democracy. >> right. i wonder if you see any difference between dei

initiatives and the sort of affirmative action aspect of this, that part of inclusion, and teaching of history, the words we u use around race, racism and slavery do. you see the court maybe open more to that kind of learning than necessarily affirmative action, which they're hostile to? >> i wish i could say yes to that, but we saw during the affirmative action oral arguments at the court that certain litigants, certain members of the court, tried to talk about the fact this was an issue that was historically contingent. there is a period of time when many of the institutions that affirmative actions are being challenged at like harvard, the university of north carolina did not admit certain groups, including african americans. why couldn't that history of exclusion be repaired through race conscious remedies that were holistic and also

considered race alongside other factors? the court wasn't hearing any of it and instead a different kind of historical narrative was advanced, one in which brown versus board of education just says full stop we don't consider race at all. that's not really what brown says. brown is really about subordinating individuals like the idea the use of race for the purpose of subordinating, not necessarily the use of race for the purpose of repairing or for remedying past discrimination. they didn't want to hear any of that. it's no race. >> this is where we're at. i will say education is the dividing line in american politics. >> we saw it in this election. >> the numbers are upside down. college educated voters harris, northern college educated voters trump. coming up, texas offers president-elect trump 1,400 acres of land to help build migrant deportation facilities, the latest on trump's mass

deportation plans and what might be done to stop them next. just sinex, breathe, ahhhh! what is — wow! sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh! this land is your land. this land is my land. this land we love belongs to all of us. yet not everyone is treated equally. right now, millions of americans are fighting for the things promised to all by the constitution.

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president-elect trump says he plans to use the military to carry out what he claims will be the largest deportation operation in u.s. history. specifically it seems he plans to have the military fund or build camps to hold detained migrants. one big hitch in that plan pointed out by "the new york times" on monday is that federal immigration authorities do not have access to enough space, to enough actual physical land, to house all the people trump claims he will deport except, except the state of texas has now stepped forward with a solution. the land commissioner of texas has written trump a letter offering him access to more than 1,400 acres of state-owned land along the rio grande river for "mass deportation facilities." joining me now is hamid

aliaziz. thank you so much for joining me. i'm thinking back to tom homan on "60 minutes" literally last month, trump's hand picked border czar, saying there will not be camps. it sure sounds like there might be camps. do you have any -- can you add anything to the picture that is emerging here? >> well, we don't have any firm details at this point. tom homan has given some interviews of fox news and the "new york post" where he's indicated that the military could be used for things like administrative tasks or helping with moving people, deporting people on planes. that is one issue where i.c.e. is struggling oftentimes is finding enough planes to deport people and has long been an issue for them. so you could see how the military could come in hand in that aspect to help them carry out their plans. >> stephen miller talked kind of broadly about using the

military and using other federal agencies to help with mass deportations, but legally and constitutionally speaking, can trump just do that with a wave of his wand? >> it would certainly be up for legal challenge. you could imagine that that will be something that will be challenged in court right away, but it's important to note that the idea that i.c.e. and federal agents could go into communities and do arrests in neighborhoods, it would be incredibly difficult to get the numbers that they want. ultimately i.c.e. and dhs is going to have to rely on picking up people from county jails and prisons. those are the areas where i.c.e. gets the vast majority of their immigration arrests and deportations. that is where they'll have to focus on. >> yeah. i mean the reality is -- and you hear this from i.c.e. agents -- planning a raid takes a long time, a lot of manpower and a lot of resources. i wonder if you have any reporting on the degree to which there is an understanding

of that within these agencies that are supposed to be tasked with these mass deportations rounding up millions of people. do you sense there's any pushback from within the government about this alleged plan? >> you could look back to tom homan's own deposition in federal court years ago where he said that it was much easier for them to get immigrants from jail. you could send one officer and pick up several immigrants from jails as opposed to going out in the community. you need multiple officers for one individual. it takes weeks of research to track down an immigrant that's at large. you have to figure out when they're leaving their home, when they go to work and oftentimes if the immigrant doesn't come out of their house, they don't arrest them, right? there's a lot of complications in the way of this plan to try to arrest and remove millions of people. >> do you have any understanding how trump might go after immigrants who are here in this country legally? i'm thinking of the haitian community in springfield, ohio,

here on temporary protected status. is there a sense of a plan in the works in the trump administration for those folks? >> well, president-elect trump has already said he plans to strip protections for haitians. that would be in line with what he did in the first trump administration. they stripped protections for people from nepal, from haiti, from el salvador. these places. this was in a direct effort to get rid of these protections as they felt it had gone too far. too many people have these ma protections for too long and i expect this to happen once again. >> this is a quickly moving storm front. it's great to have you and great to have your reporting on the show, thank you for your time. >> that's our show for this evening now it's time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening, lawrence. >> we will pick up the subject

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