needs mending after hurricane helene. many of the tree farms including carter's suffered damage from mudslides. today was a moment to take pride in their resilience. >> all the good things like faith, hope and love that's what we want this tree to represent. >> have you felt that spirit in this air? >> absolutely we have. >> and like every year during the holidays north carolina is sharing that spirit with the rest of us. nbc news, newlands, north carolina. >> we are glad to see the community is on the mend and thinking of all of those still impacted by hurricane helene. tonight and on the very important note i want to take a deep breath with you and i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late with me here in

washington, i will see you at the end of tomorrow and new york city. two the house's ethics committee deadlocked on the question of whether to release its report on the alleged misconduct of trump's pick for attorney general. the vote reportedly broke down along party lines with all five democrats voting to release the report and all five republicans voting against it. the committee is now set to meet again on december 5 to discuss next steps but this is all happening as new details about matt gaetz and his conduct had started to trickle out in the press. abc news has now reportedly obtained records given to the ethics committee which show gaetz paid more than $10,000 to two young women who later testified to the committee. and an attorney for those two women tells nbc news that those records appear to be exhibits from his clients went through with the committee to identify which payments from gaetz had been for sex.

meanwhile the new york times has obtained a fairly detailed diagram from federal investigators that reportedly shows the tangled web of payments between gaetz and various individuals including those two women who testified to the house ethics committee. now matt gaetz denies the allegations and nbc news is not independently obtaining those records and it's unclear what the ethics committee is going to end up doing here. but it certainly seems like the pressure that trump and house speaker mike johnson are putting on house republicans is working. house republicans seem pretty committed to protecting matt gaetz. and the question now is will senate republicans do the same. as a reminder it would take for republican senators to sink gaetz and his nomination assuming all democrats vote against him, to that end there are a few key senators were

focusing on, first there is tom tillis who is a republican of north carolina. senator tillis sits on the senate judiciary committee which is going to be the first body to take up the gaetz nomination in the next congress. and senator tillis is up for reelection in 2026. in a state where democrats have been gaining some real momentum. despite trumps a victory this year democrats swept statewide races for north carolina's governor, lieutenant governor, secretary of state, attorney general and superintendent of public schools. that political reality has to be weighing on senator tillis as he decides what he is going to do about matt gaetz. someone with precisely 0 democratic support. he may also be bothered by the fact that gaetz himself has referred to senator tillis as an america last republican senator. here is what senator tillis had to say about gaetz and his nomination a few hours ago. >> would you describe your posture on the gaetz? >> my posture is that every

nominee whether they are bias in the last administration or whether they are president trump, deserve a process, every member should meet with them regardless of whether they are a no vote or a yes vote i met with the supreme court nominee that i had every nominee, that i had every intention of voting against and i voted yes. it's pretty straightforward. >> your meeting with him today? >> i intend to meet with congressman gaetz. >> make of that what you will. >> two other senators were keeping an eye on our senator susan collins of maine and lisa murkowski of alaska. senator collins is up for reelection next year in a state that kamala harris won by seven points. senator murkowski has made a name for herself as an independently minded lawmaker who has already survived one election against a trumpet backed rival. and both of these senators were personally attacked by matt

gaetz in 2020 over their refusal to rubberstamp amy coney barrett's nomination to the supreme court. >> here we have murkowski and collins rejecting the duties that they have a senators and if they do that their voters should reject them. if they are unwilling to do their job and take a vote on who the president nominates they should not have the privilege of continuing to serve in the senate. >> now lisa murkowski ended up voting for amy coney barrett's is anyone's guess how she is ultimately going to come down on matt gaetz but yesterday she continued to resist the idea of being a rubberstamp for donald trump. >> i would like to see our committees do their full job. i do not, i am not interested in a process that would to say well, because the president has named him, and you have republican chairs coming into the new congress, that we just move people out. there needs to be legitimate vetting. >> one other senator worth

keeping an eye on is this guy. oklahoma senator mark wayne mullen prior to joining the senate he served in the house of representatives alongside matt and he will be shocked to learn that matt gaetz did not endear himself to mark wayne mullen. gaetz has called him a disgrace to the republican party and mullen has shared some pretty unflattering anecdotes about matt gaetz like this one from last year. >> this is a guy that didn't have some of the media didn't give a time of day two after he was accused of sleeping with an underage girl. but there's a reason why no one in the conference came to defend him because we had all seen the videos he was showing on the house floor that all of us had walked away of the girls he has slept with, he would brag about how he would crush ed medicine and chase it with an energy drink so he could go all night, this is obviously before he got married and so when that accusation came out no one defended him. >> that was how mark wayne mullen talked about matt gaetz

a year ago. but this week. president-elect trump has turned up the pressure on senators like mark wayne mullen. on monday trump posted a glowing message about senator mullen on his social media site calling him a great fighter and also reminding senator mullen that trump won every district in his home state of oklahoma. trump concluded the message by saying mullen is taking really good care of that very special state. and i am there watching over it. yesterday, after that less than subtle message from the leader of his party, here was mark wayne mullen on the gaetz nomination. >> i think the president wants to hammer at the doj and he sees matt gaetz as a hammer and all these other appointments, he is very confident in where they are at and will deliver the administration that he is mounting. his pics have been may be unconventional but we hired an unconventional president and american people wanted that,

they don't want politics as usual they want someone that was jacob washington dc. >> he is a hammer and unconventional. it is a radically more generous assessment of matt gaetz than anything mark wayne mullen had said before, i wonder why. today matt gaetz was on capitol hill to meet with republican senators where he was escorted by the president second in command vice president elect, jd vance. >> the senator has been giving me a lot of good advice i am looking forward to a hearing. folks have been very supportive and saying we are going to get a fair process so it's a great day of momentum for the trump and vance administration. >> joining me now is allie who is of course the capitol hill correspondent for nbc news, i am very eager to get your thoughts on all of this, first of all matt gaetz saying it was a great day for the trump and vance administration have you heard any scuttlebutt about how those meetings went? >> we didn't hear that they went badly and i think that's the notable thing here. because you saw and you played

my conversation with senator tom tillis and he was one of those senators that met with congressman matt gaetz today, and the fact that tillis is saying here outwardly that he wants to be able to have an open process, a fair process and has met with people who he knows he is going to vote no for and yet he met with them anyway. all of that is an important piece of context as we try to piece together where these key votes might come from. but it seemed like he was pretty methodologically taking through key members on the senate judiciary committee in his meetings today while also meeting with people like senator joni ernst and senator john thune the newly elected majority leader of the senate so he is taking through critical republicans and i think the fact that they are showing a consistent commitment to going through the process with matt gaetz already shows the way that the overton window on capitol hill is shifting and it comes to someone who on the house side of this building has

very few friends and many people who would like to see not just gaetz and his nomination be utterly tanked but also see his dirty laundry sort of dragged through the streets on capitol hill, the ethics committee while matt gaetz was on the senate side of the building the house ethics committee was doing their part in considering whether or not the ethics committee report that they have been doing into him on and off for the last several years whether that was ultimately going to be released and they didn't reach any resolution on that today. we are watching a typically shrouded in mystery process from the ethics committee sort of spill out into public view. members on that committee saying that the other has betrayed sort of the code of secrecy that that committee tends to operate on. so we are watching this on the senate side play out in somewhat normal fashion then on the house side we are watching sort of the norms over there fray over this nomination. >> i wonder how much you are reading into the ethics committee being a bellwether for the larger republican party because there are some for lack of a better term normal, nor

meet republicans on the five republicans on the house ethics committee that effectively voted i will say for matt gaetz in voting not to release the ethics report, do you i mean in particular i am talking about david joyce and andrew, i mean the fact that they are in line with trump on this, does that signal anything to you? >> i think it signals and this is where it gets a little bit convoluted and i don't want to put this in like he'll e's or anything like that but it is a fascinating organism on capitol hill in one of the only committees that is 5-505 democrats and five republicans evenly divided. and it's also committee that really operates on decorum and the fact that no one leaks what happens in those meetings and the reason that you had the ranking democrat on the committee susan wilde saying that the chairman of the committee congressman guest had betrayed their sort of code of conduct is because guest came

out of the meeting and basically told the press hey, we didn't decide on a resolution, we didn't decide whether or not to release the gaetz ethics report so just by saying what was talked about in the room it is viewed as a betrayal, the fact that we even know when this committee is meeting and what they are meeting about is really a typical, atypical for the way to actually work on capitol hill, and so a lot of the things that we have seen in this process are not the traditional way that we do them or see them on the hill, but also the fact that the house speaker, mike johnson weighed in really early and said that he didn't want to see the house ethics committee release this ethics report and the reason he said that yes, for politics reasons he is clearly aligned in lock step down to the walkout at the ufc fight, down to the walkout at the wwe fight, with the president elect, but also typically if you are not a member of congress anymore, the ethics committee stuff goes away, their jurisdiction no longer applies and so technically that is true with gaetz but because

of the extenuating circumstance, the high stakes and there were some rare precedents for the ethics committee the siding after the fact to release investigations, all of this now suddenly applies and again we are watching norms be frayed in real-time here. >> most people leave congress when and don't get there ethics reports released because they are just leaving congress and they are not going to become the attorney general of the justice department. it's been a long day for all of us, but especially you. thank you my friend. joining me now, to put some great perspective on all of this is my friend and former colleague john who is a columnist and podcast are and a great american. john, what does this feel like to you as you watch these like you hear the sound of people like kevin kramer and mark wayne mullen able who have been out there saying that matt gaetz is effectively not a good guy which is being maybe euphemistic and now saying well

but he's a hammer. he's a maverick. he's a guy that can get it done for trump. how do you read it? >> a few years ago on television show called the circuit that we've hosted together. we covered the brett cavanaugh nomination and i remember very vividly going up to the closing days of that playing up to new hampshire and spending time with you chasing susan collins around and the sound of susan collins and lisa murkowski and that time jeff, expressing real serious concerns and then i'm going out and voting for the nominee anyway, that's what the sense memory is that and the ptsd is that which is you could be cynical and sort of say any moment when she announces she is deeply concerned about something she is likely to overcome the concerns and vote for the person and do the things that she is concerned about, i have sat here for the last since last wednesday, when the immediate reaction of a lot of people was these three nominees gabbard, gaetz and

pete hegseth but particularly gaetz are un-confirmable and they will never get confirmed, i have spent the time since then in vain searching for someone who can point to an example when the republicans of the united states senate have ever stood up to legitimate hard-core pressure of donald trump, i'm still waiting if someone has an example that i forgot. on a recorded vote, there have been on some foreign policies or someone has pressured mcconnell on ukraine but on a recorded vote for donald trump has come out and said i want this, i need this and if i don't get this, i will first give you all my pressure positive pressure please, please do this, do this and then eventually we will get to the threat you read that true the social post about senator mullen, we will hear more about that and start taking a look at all the united states senators who are up in the classes of 2026 and the class of 2028 all those people have been terrified of donald trump's sway over his face and their electorates from the moment he

became the republican nominee in 2016. what has changed? he is now a more powerful force in the republican party than he was then. i don't understand the logic by which other than rationality you know, other than like why would you vote against these nominees or matt gaetz for all the obvious reasons but i don't think it's at all a guarantee that any of them are going to vote against matt gaetz in the end regardless of what is in this ethics committee report. >> that is not to give those republicans task because we are not talking about brett cavanaugh we are talking about matt gaetz who is a different animal entirely in terms of politics not just in terms of sexual assault allegations in this world but what he represents in terms of dismantling the federal government and weapon icing the justice department. given that john, so we had allie on talking about the back- and-forth in the house ethics committee and there is this report that has this damaging potentially explosive material in it, a democrat on the house ethics committee could go to

the floor of the house and enter into the public record, it would be a breach of protocol like we have never seen before but it is allowed and it would put it in the public eye. and i sort of understand why democrats see themselves as the guard rails and protecting institutional integrity but we are talking about matt gaetz at the department of justice. do you see any way in which democrats start playing a different kind of baseball? in this moment? >> i think that it is as much about there is a decorum and precedent and institutional, but what it is about is fear and democrats are unfortunately in a lot of cases afraid that if they get into the ring you know it's that you don't want to get down into the mud with the pig because you get dirty and the pig likes it, it's the same

thing. they have the same attitude which is they are a little afraid to play that kind of brass knuckle politics because they are worried they will get beat up and they've seen republicans do this for so long i think they are better at it and tougher and meaner and less scrupulous, more willing to break the rules and pull hair and bite so there's more of that fear, i just have to say that i think the most important two things to say about this whole thing that people have to just keep remembering over and over again when people say that these nominees are not qualified, they are vividly qualified for what they are being put in there for them and they are put in there not to run these departments but to wreck these departments by the standards of what donald trump and steve bannon and others are trying to do, deconstruct the administrative state. in the new york times tonight he is a blunt force instrument applying blunt force trauma to the system. they want to destroy the system, not to build so they are very well qualified for that, you have to think about that and the other things, this is all about at least murkowski put her finger on, she understands donald trump wants the senate to be the duma and he wanted to be a rubber stamp

institution that will give him what he wants whenever he wants it and that is what this is about, this has been about humiliating the senate and forcing it to do things it does not want to do so that he can ultimately say you are now mine. >> that's why this, it matters who is our attorney general and it matters about the ethics but really, what this is emma this is a bellwether for the rest of the trump administration and the degree to which the legislative branch, it is a low- key constitutional crisis. can we take your responsibility to advise and consent senate give it to me that's what trump said. >> just keep in mind there are all kinds of people who share the deconstructive administrative state view that if matt gaetz were to go down you will get a less objection and less grotesque and lust morally repugnant version of matt gaetz someone who has the same goal will be the same instrument of donald trump which is to weapon is the justice department and tear down the rule of law. that's going to be the attorney general, the question of whether you also get one who is stuck with one who is

inherently in favor of having a sexual intercourse with women who are either under age or right on the edge. and i like those things you had up earlier some of those notations of what those payments were for, one of them is noted as joy. >> i just can't even comment, i will leave that one for the commercial break. >> it's so gross. >> thank you for your time. donald trump has picked wwe cofounder linda mcmahon for education secretary. and has mighty big plans for that agency that might not be all that legal. new reporting on who exactly is going to paper trumps handouts to the rich and the certain political peril republicans are setting themselves up for. stay with us. with us. meet the traveling trio. the thrill seeker. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity,

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the fifth pillar of my plan is to make the trump tax cuts permanent and they are massive tax cuts, biggest ever, permanent, and to cut taxes even more. >> donald trump has been very clear that his signature 2017 tax cuts are here to stay. the same tax cuts that the center on budget and policy priorities says are on track to give the top 1% a $61,000 tax

cut next year compared to $70 as in 70 for the lowest earning households. and to pay for that staggering redistribution, new reporting in the washington post this week reveals that trumps advisors and congressional allies have begun preliminary discussions about making significant cuts to medicaid, food stamps and other federal safety net programs that benefit the poorest americans. if you are wondering how that might work out remember the last time republicans tried to cut medicaid back in 2017. dozens of disabled activists some on ventilators and in wheelchairs held a die and outside majority leader mitch mcconnell's office and the public backlash against this bill was so strong it helped sway enough republican senators to doom its passage. joining me now is former bernie sanders campaign manager in 2020 and founder and executive director of more perfect union. thank you for being here, first of all, can we just disabuse the public of some notions

about who actually is on medicaid and who is on food stamps i just again with the fact that republican-led states have some of the highest medicaid enrollment in the country. we .8 million people in texas, 3.6 million people in florida i mean to what degree do you think that is even factoring into republican plans on this and to what degree do you think it's a liability? >> right, they are inflicting unnecessary misery and pain on a particular group of people, 70 million people nationwide but to the people who are on medicaid you got infants and children and disability people you have shown them already people on long-term care, you have people who have long-term sickness including cancer. you've got people who are in between jobs. pregnant women, all foster care, all kinds of things that medicaid helps provide a backstop for and as a society needless to say we need a

healthy and humane society and we all benefit from some degree of healthcare for everybody. and when you are inflicting pain on 70 million people they will find savings. what does that mean? how do you get savings out of medicaid? cut people out and kicked them off and give them no healthcare, why are we doing all of this? you mentioned because we have to give estate taxes to the very rich people and cut the corporate rate. this is insanity and i will see if donald trump goes through it but i know the senate republicans have long had these plans and we have to stop them. >> they've had their knives out for the social safety net and this is going at it with a pair of garden shears, to the snap question, food stamps i mean that is 42.1 million people a month receiving food stamps according to the u.s. department of agriculture that is 12.6% of this country. i mean i think that there are real misunderstandings and half truths about who needs help, a lot of people need help and by the way, the biggest portion of recipients of food stamps are white people. now again i'm not saying that

trump should only be looking at policy that affects his supporters or doesn't affect them but there is a narrative in republican policies that it is people of color or people in urban areas that are no loafing off the federal government and it is not, first of all that is not true. go. and second of all they got the picture wrong. can you get and talk more little bit about what we are trying to do in terms of establishing work requirements here and creating more stringent guidelines in which people can access these programs? >> that always gets my goat and it pains me because you hear republicans talk about this and those terms and the truth of the matter is if you are really upset and angry about wanting to reform food stamps you know what we should be focused on? is you have people who work at walmart, they work at mcdonald's. they work in a whole variety of sectors, taco bell, burger king you look at the roles of people on medicaid and food stands, working in these corporations right now today, walmart reported record earnings for

themselves, and yet they have employees on food stamps, i mean first of all that's unnecessary so if you want to start reforming food stamps programs we go tax walmart and make sure that they are providing both a living wage for their employees and that would help solve some of this problem, right, why cannot walmart provide a living wage for employees and now becomes an issue for the federal government and that we want to take it away from people who are already struggling and already trying to barely scrape by and it is inhumane and unnecessarily cruel infliction of pain. >> people that are working full- time should not have to depend on food stamps to eat. that is just a basic thing. and yet they do. >> that is what we are talking about here in america not because, that is a fundamental economic problem we need to solve. the reality of these tax cuts, the top 1% are going to maybe get 61,000 dollars in tax, in tax benefits, the middle child

making 53 to 91,000, $910, just look at that jump. 61,000 to $910, do republicans have an argument, to be expected to try to make the argument here that this is a necessary tax cut? >> we have to be prepared for this battle because they're going to play some smoke and mirrors with us, they will throw out a lot of candy to very wealthy people and they are going to combine it with some small pockets of, a popular no tax on social security by the way if you do know to social security you bankrupt social security. who on social security pays taxes it's the rich people not the people making 15 or $30,000 a year so no tax on tips. maybe even a child tax credit they might throw on there, just to say all democrats how we vote against us having even talking about carrying about people in overtime? no tax on overtime and so we

got to be clear about our argument and i do think we have to also outflank them so while we oppose them we should be coming up with ideas that this is, if you care about social security donald trump, raise the cap and we increase the benefit for people on social security. how about we do it that way rather than the way you want to do it and a whole bunch of issues overtime why do we expended people eligible for overtime you want to do tips? eliminate the sub minimum wage, we have to outflank them on the issue and oppose what i think is going to be a very disastrous tax cuts package that benefits the rich. >> real talk, it's great to see you, thank you for your time tonight. st chose former wwe executive, linda mcmahon to leave the department of education, what exactly does he expect her role? to be? well, it involves a smack down of sorts and also involves a bible. that's next. e. that's next.

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so we are giving you a little extra help this season. $3.99 for a jennie-o 14 to 16 lb. turkey. when you spend $35. head to your neighborhood grocery outlet today because this offer is available only while supplies last. yesterday donald trump named his pick for secretary of the department of education linda mcmahon. now on its face this appears to be far from trumps most concerning staffing decision. man served in trump's first administration as the head of the small business administration and briefly served on connecticut state board of education back in 2009. but she is perhaps the best- known for stunts like this.

ones that have gone viral since trumps announcement because mcmahon cofounded world wrestling entertainment or wwe and was often in the ring herself. for what we will call skits. now nearly all of trump staffing announcements so far have been a circus but if mcmahon's ascent to the top of education department seems particularly unserious, it's because donald trump does not take that department seriously. this is the vision for the department of education that trump outlined while running for second term. >> we will have one person plus a secretary and all the person has to do is are you teaching english are you teaching arithmetic? what are you doing, reading, writing and arithmetic and and are you not teaching woke is a big factor. >> one person and a secretary. as a candidate trump proposed abolishing the primitive education streaking it down to a husk so people might be saved

from woke indoctrination. as president-elect trump is not only doubling down on eliminating the education department he says he wants to weapon as it against people of color with the goal of abolishing woke. >> i will direct the department of justice to pursue federal civil rights cases against schools that continue to engage in racial discrimination. and schools that persist in explicit unlawful discrimination under the guise of equity will not only have their endowments taxed, portion of the seas funds will then be used as restitution for victims of these illegal and unjust policies. >> aside from the anti-woke agenda the centerpiece of trumps education pitch is this. >> sending all education and education work needs back to the states we want them to run the education of our children.

because they will do a much better job of it. you can't do worse. >> for the record this is what the states are doing with their department of education right now. >> we are excited to announce a new office for the oklahoma department of education at the office of religious liberty and patriotism. for too long in this country we have seen a radical left attack individuals religious liberty in our schools. we will not tolerate that in oklahoma. >> i was oklahoma superintendent ryan walters who has begun buying bibles and specifically trump branded bibles for use in classrooms announcing a new office of religious liberties that will among other things force students to watch a video of him praying. meanwhile over in texas education officials advanced a plan this week to incorporate material from the bible into lesson plans. so that's the conservative agenda, the federal department of education gutted, weapon exit and leave education decisions to the states that

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i will take the primitive education, close it in washington, let the states run their own education. >> are you teaching arithmetic, what are you doing? are you not teaching woke? it is a very big factor. we are going to get this anti-

american insanity out of our institutions once and for all. >> we will support bringing brack, back prayer to our schools. >> our once great educational institutions from the radical left and we will do that. >> president-elect trump has outlined a vision for the future of american education when that includes eliminating woke and slashing funding for schools that opposes policies, infusing public school curriculum with christianity and dismantling the department of education. joining me now is melissa murray professor of law at nyu and cohost of the indispensable trick strict scrutiny podcast please come even if this can be stopped in the courts? just the whole church and state thing? how easy it is it for trump to reintroduce christianity into public school curricula at large? >> last week in louisiana there was a challenge to a louisiana

law that requires the 10 commandments to be prominently displayed in public school classrooms and a judge in louisiana said it clearly violated exit it's presidents amending the separation of church and state and that case is on a fast track to the supreme court is going to go to the fifth circuit we already know about the fifth circuit the fifth circuit is the farm league for the supreme court right now we have a number of fifth circuit judges auditioning to be the replacement for justice alito or thomas when they decide to step down and then from there it will likely go to the supreme court and everyone understands that that challenge to that law is geared to be the vehicle for overruling cases like the 1960s era case that basically said you can't have school prayer and so this is all happening and you had the oklahoma public school superintendent on going to have a bible, a trump bible in every classroom and these are very clearly targeted at challenging the line between church and

state and ultimately sending those cases to the court the federal courts where in his first administration donald trump major that it was stocked with movement conservatives so they are primed and ready to undo these precedents and from there they will go to the spring court were donald trump is appointed a third of those justices and there is a conservative supermajority and we will see if we get to live in a most multi-faith plural democracy. >> this has been on the rights agenda for decades, the woke part is the most current expression of their anti- inclusive and anti-civil rights agenda, right? and i just wonder when trump says i will/federal funding for any schools that don't comply with my anti-woke agenda like i assume there can be lawsuits in there and there can be discrimination lawsuits i mean this is so against the sort of tide of civil rights that has been part of our nation's history in recent years but this supreme court has not been

particularly interested in upholding. >> i feel the religion stuff has a better chance of being struck down. >> so for years the right has stoked and basically manipulated the promise of brown versus education to stand for this principle that what brown is really about is colorblind education like race does not matter at all which is why you can strike down affirmative action and say because brown mandates it does not think about race at all so if you take that frame of mind obviously efforts to expand diversity in schools and efforts to provide equity or to bring in viewpoints that historically have gone unventilated all of those things now seem like they are color conscious and they are race conscious and constitutionally impermissible, we have already seen this with the dismantling of affirmative action we are going to see even more of it and it's going to go into the corporate sphere and it's definitely going to be something in education both k-

12 and higher education this is where this is going him it's an assault on this idea of a plural multiethnic and multifaith democracy. >> i guess i wonder if you make any difference or you see any difference between like ti initiatives and the sort of affirmative action aspect of it, that part of inclusion and the teaching of history and like the words we use around race, racism and slavery, like do you see the court as being may be more open to the preservation of that kind of learning then necessarily affirmative action? >> i wish i could say yes about that but we saw during the affirmative action oral arguments that the court that certain litigants and sort of members of the court tried to talk about the fact that this was an issue that was historically contingent and there is a period of time when many of the institutions that affirmative action policies were being challenged like harvard and the university of north carolina, did not admit certain groups including african americans and why couldn't that history of

exclusion be repaired, through race conscious remedies that were holistic and considered a wide range of factors but also included the consideration of race alongside other factors. and the court was not hearing any of it. instead a different kind of historical narrative was advanced, one in which brown versus board of education just says full stop we don't consider race at all. and that's not really what brown says. right? brown is really about subordinating individuals like the idea the use of race for the purpose of subordinating not necessarily the use of race for the purpose of repairing or for terminating past discrimination like they didn't want to hear any of that. it's just no race. and this is where we are at. >> education is the dividing line in american politics. we saw it in the selection and the numbers are upside down, college educated voters and non- college-educated voters, this is our fight, this is it. thank you for making the time.

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president-elect trump says he plans to use the military to carry out what he claims will be the largest deportation operation in the u.s. history. specifically it seems he plans to have the military fund or build camps to hold detained migrants. one big cage in that plan pointed out by the new york times on monday is that federal immigration authorities do not have access to enough space to enough actual physical land to house all the people trump claims he will deport. except, except, the state of texas has now stepped forward with a solution. the land commissioner of texas has written trump a letter offering him access to more than 1400 acres of state owned land along the rio grande river for quote unquote mass

deportation facilities. joining me now, covering the department of homeland security for the new york times, thank you so much for joining me, i am thinking back to tom on 60 minutes literally last month he is trump's hand-picked border czar saying there will not be camps. it sure sounds like there might be camps, do you have any can you add anything to the picture that is emerging here? >> we don't have any firm details at this point, tom homan has given some interviews with fox news and the new york post where he has indicated that the military could be used for things like administrative tasks or helping with moving people and deporting people on planes and that is one issue where isis, ice is struggling to find enough planes to deport people. that has long been an issue for them so you can see how the military can come in hand in that aspect to help them carry

out the plans. >> do you have i mean to what degree stephen miller has talked broadly about using the military and using other agents from other federal agencies to help with mass deportation but legally and constitutionally speaking can trump just do that with a wave of his wand? >> it would certainly be up for legal challenge you would imagine that, that will be something that would be challenged in court right away but it's important to know that the idea that ice and federal agents could go into communities and do arrests in neighborhoods, it would be incredibly difficult to get the numbers that they want ultimately ice and dhs is going to have to rely on picking up people from county jails and prisons and those are the areas where ice gets the vast majority of their immigration arrests and deportations, that is what they will have to focus on. >> the reality is and you hear this from ice agents planning a raid takes a long time and a

lot of manpower and a lot of resources. and i wonder if you have any reporting on the degree to which there is an understanding of that within these agencies that are supposed to be tasked with these you know mass deportations rounding of millions of people, do you sense there is any pushback from within the government about this alleged plan? >> you could look back to tom homan's own deposition in federal court years ago where he said that it was much easier for them to get immigrants from jail as you could send one officer and get several from jail, as opposed to coming on the community you need multiple officers for one individual and it takes weeks of research to track down an immigrant that is at large and figure out when they are leaving their home, when they go to work. and often times the immigrant doesn't come out of the house they don't arrest them, right? so there's a lot of complications in the way of this plan to try to arrest and

remove millions of people. >> do you have any understanding of how trump might go after immigrants who are here in this country legally? the haitian community in springfield, ohio here who are on protected status, is there a sense of a plan in the works in the trump administration for those folks? >> well, president-elect trump has said that he plans to strip tps protections for haitians that would be in line with what he did in the first trump administration, they stripped protections for people from nepal, from haiti and el salvador, this was a direct effort to try to get rid of this tps protections and they felt like it had gone too far, too many people have these protections for too long and i expect that to happen once again. they have