that is all in on this thursday night, a reminder before we go to check out a special bonus episode of my podcast, why is this happening? rachel maddow and i sit down to talk about what is happening now and what comes next in a second trump presidency and how to prepare for it. it is available now exclusively for msnbc premium subscribers. also stick around on msnbc tonight because adam schiff from california will be joining lawrence o'donnell for his first interview since the election, they talk about trump's cabinet yeah, let's talk about ted and the podcast. we're doing cool things at

night too. we've got richard blumenthal and jamie raskin. all good. >> if you are watching now turn off now come back at 10:00. >> don't do that. don't do what he's saying. it's going to be awesome. i don't know. it's going to be a very good hour of television. >> it's going to be. >> you don't want to miss it. thanks chris. bye. on to our show. donald trump has now moved on to his second choice for attorney general. today trump's first choice for the job officially withdrew from consideration over allegations. allegations he denies. given this, trump today had to give up on his choice of a maga loyalist from florida who is a fixture on fox news and will instead be nominating a maga loyalist from florida who is a fixture on fox news.

trump has chosen former florida attorney general pam bondi to be his pick. you may remember her from her many guest appearances on the political reality show that donald trump forced us all to live in. in 2018 she had reportedly been looking into allegations of fraud at trump's sham university. but then trump's sham charity gave an illegal $25,000 donation to a pac supporting pam bondi and pam suddenly decides she was not interested in investigating trump university anymore. years later both trump's university and his charity would be shut down after being investigated by attorneys general who didn't receive any large conspicuous donations from donald trump. may also remember pam bondi from her role as part of trump's defense team in his first impeachment trial where she demonstrated her skills as a litigator in front of the

united states' senate. >> he remained on the board until april of 2019. >> nailed it. but like any good reality tv star, you probably remember pam bondi best from her many, many appearances on television and specifically fox news television. she even filled in as a guest host on fox three times while she was still the sitting attorney general of florida. she spent plenty of time on the network since she left office. >> murderers, rapists from venezuelan prisoners coming straight into our country, they are coming to a town near you. it should scare and terrify

everyone in this country. this is just one big press conference. trying to smear donald trump, trying to hurt donald trump. >> we do have evidence of cheating and i'll talk about that in a minute. but we are still on the ground in pennsylvania and i'm here right now and we are not going anywhere until they declare that we won pennsylvania. >> that last clip you saw there was from just after the 2020 election. when pam bondi was promoting the big lie that trump had won the election. bondi was again part of trump's legal team that tried and failed to prove trump's election conspiracies in court. filing multiple lawsuits on trump's behalf in battleground states. and she has been one of hi most loyal foot soldiers ever since then. she even stood by trump's side during the manhattan criminal trials and defended him outside the courthouse. >> listen, all the rights here, i'm a prosecutor. former prosecutor, all the rights here go to the defendant. because it's his liberty at stake. and that has not been happening

in this courtroom. this case should have never ever been brought. >> all of that is why donald trump chose pam bondi to be he pick for attorney general. every bit the loyalist that matt gaetz would have been just with a little less baggage. we have jamie raskin democrat from maryland and ranking member of the house oversight committee and also of course the lead impeachment manager in the second trial of donald trump. congressman raskin, thank you for joining us. first get your reaction to president trump's second choice pick of bondi to be his attorney general. >> well, i suppose big virtue is that she doesn't have the baggage that matt gaetz brought in terms of charges of sex with an underaim girl and using prostitutes and showing obscene photos on the floor of the

house and so on but she's schooled in the exact legal culture of whatever donald trump want, donald trump gets. here we are. you know, it's been quite a week as they've begun to unveil what their january agenda is going to be. they brought forth a bill to abolish diversity, equity and inclusion offices in every federal department and then to disqualify the people who have been working at them for reassignment to anywhere else in the government. so essentially this massive purge of anybody who had anything to do with dei which will be a scarlet letter for them. then today on the floor of course they were arguing for legislation to give the president of the united states through the secretary of the treasury unilateral executive authority to strip 501(c)(3) organizations of their tax exempt status by designating them terrorist supporting groups without ever going to

court and without ever meeting any factual or legal proof. it's solely within the unilateral discretion of the secretary of the treasury. afterwards, you can go to court and then you have the burden of showing that you are not a terrorist supporting organization. which of course completely capsizes the whole meaning of due process. so this is what we're looking at from the lawyers coming out of the trump hemisphere here. >> well, yeah, let's talk about pam bondi specifically because given what those lawyer are doing and what she's phone the fact she might head the department of justice, in your estimation will she be more skilled as it were than matt gaetz. only passing career as a lawyer. pam bondi was the florida attorney general and part of the defense team for trump's first impeachment you know. she's been at the center of legal fights in a more high- profile and meaningful way.

does that concern you? >> well, i mean, she's met the only real test for the job. which is a she willing to do whatever donald trump asks her to do? you know, as you showed from the various little episodes that flashed up on the screen, you know she might not be this century's answer to f. lee bailey but she's clearly had some courtroom experience. and she's been a litigator in different contexts. but that doesn't improve the merits of what they're saying. but i think she at least will not be sort of -- as much of a catalyzing lightning rod figure as matt gaetz was about the become. >> i would wonder if she would be -- i mean she's clearly steeped in maga-ism right? she's an election denier and proven herself a tropaic lite but seems to have a better

understanding of the workings of the law and that seems problematic for people. the fact that she has been i think heading up part of the like litigation wing of steven miller's america first policy institute suggests to me and i don't know how you think about this, that she will be working in tandem with steven miller as they try and execute on some of the trump administration's most least proposed draconian ideas including the rounding up of migrants and detention camps and the rest. does her affiliation with steven miller and to some degree by virtue of that project 2025 concern you? >> well, you know, the massive roundup and promised deportation of 10 million or 11 million people looks like the centerpiece of the early agenda of the new trump administration. so she would obviously be, you know, the -- the chief lawyer

in charge of that operation. and defending it against everybody suing presuming that it's done in the way they've done things in the past which is running completely roughshod over people's civil rights and several liberties and what the law does. so yeah. i mean, i think she's lined up to do that but remember, the attorney general himself or herself rarely appears in court. i mean even in the supreme court, that's the solicitor general. so she's really presiding over the bureaucracy and there, that's -- where she'll be the key transmission belt between donald trump's orders and then making the bureaucracy move and that of course is what everybody at the department of justice is so afraid of. that there'll be this wholesale abandonment of the law in the constitution and it will basically become like the donald trump law firm. >> to you -- i mean the enemies list doesn't seem to have gone anywhere right? that was like figure of the

matt gaetz agenda and i would assume donald trump's enemies' list will be transferred over to pam bondi if confirmed as attorney general. i would imagine that you and some of your democratic counterparts are going to be on that enemies list. when you see someone like matt gaetz replaced by pam bondi what's your level of concern and fear for your own future? >> well, you know, it's not just democrats of course i think some of the republicans rank even higher. like -- you know, liz cheney and adam kinzinger and you know, at the end of the campaign a lot of them were coming forward. the president's former chief of staff john kelly. the former chair of the joint chiefs of staff mark milli. those people are on a list of i don't know, hundreds of people who are the enmists. sure, if the whole -- enemies. sure if the whole administration is just about exacting revenge and retaliation then they're going to find different ways to go

after even legitimate legislative activities like legislative committees and i mean, we think that we've been covered by the speech and debate clause as well as the first amendment as well as the separation of powers. but that may be tested because just like they want to go after immigrants and they want to go after public schools and they want to go after federal workers, they also want to go after anybody who's dared to challenge them on their dubious constitutional assertions. and so that means we have to be prepared to defend everybody and the watch word for the period is going to be all for one, one for all. we're going to defend democracy we're going to defend civil society and we're going to defend people who serve the american people in the government. >> congressman jamie raskin, you have the marching orders ready it sounds like. great to talk to you tonight. thank you for your time sir. >> you bet. coming up, is shame a thing that still may be working in washington? no, really. is it?

we'll get into that. but first donald trump's pick for defense secretary has written a whole lot about the american left. and it should scare people on both sides of the aisle. we're going to talk about that with a member of the senate armed services committee right after the break. life has twis but you define them and make them bounce. tresemme flawless curls defining mousse. 24 hour. hydrating curl definition. style your life the way you want. ♪♪ tresemme, style your way.

matt gaetz has withdrawn his name from consideration as united states attorney general. the sex scandals were apparently just too much. and that matters because gaetz is not the only alleged sexual predator, sexual pest, whatever you want to call him with wild political views that trump has picked for one of the highest positions in government. >> did you sexually assault a woman in monterey, california? >> as far as the media is concerned, very simple. matter was fully investigated and i was completely cleared. and that's probably -- thank you very much. >> that was fox news personality trump's pick for defense secretary pete hegseth. the allegations hegseth is denying stem from an incident in 2017 where a woman alleges that hegseth sexually assaulted her after a convention in monterey bay, california. today in response to a records request by the media, the monterey police department released the police report about that incident.

the report details the woman's allegations that after the conference she went to an afterparty and then the hotel bar. both of which hegseth also went to. at the bar, she believes some form of drug may have been slipped into her drink. she says she remembered walking out of the bar and ending up at the hotel pool where she claims to have had an argument with hegseth. she says her next memory is being in hegseth's hotel room where she says hegseth took her phone and physically block blocked her from leaving hi room. she remembers saying no a lot and remembers a sexual encounter took place. the sexual encounter part of the report is a little not too safe for work but i'm sparing you. hegseth frames the incident asconsensual pointing to the fact he is not charged as evidence of his innocence.

but the police and local district attorney didn't give a reason. deciphering what's true here is made complicated by the revelation that's week that hegseth paid an undisclosed amount to the accuser as part of the nondisclosure agreement. the accuser is likely legally barred from speaking out. now it remains to be seen if the allegations will move the needle with republicans in the senate the way the allegation against matt gaetz apparently did. this was how republican senator roger wicker who is set to chair the senate armed services committee, this is how he spoke about pete hegseth's chances today. >> what are your concerns about the nomination and the answers to some of your concerns? did you raise some of them. >> i think he's going to be in pretty good shape. >> why -- the allegations in the police report that the sexual assault allegations? >> we -- we were not specific. but you know, since no charges

were brought, the authorities, we have only the press reports. >> should you have gotten into some of the specifics, would that be a -- >> we'll be looking -- >> a fulsome -- doesn't seem promising. but sexual assault allegations are not the only reason pete hegseth could give some republicans pause. this week nbc news reported that trump's team is drawing up a list of current and former u.s. military officers they would like to court-martial. reuters reported on another list trump's team is drawing up of all the pentagon officers trump wants to fire and to top that off trump has been loudly doubling down on his threat to use the u.s. military to round up detain and deport millions of immigrants. that would mean using the u.s. military on u.s. soil sending troops into american neighborhoods. now in the previous trump administration, there was a

belief accurate or not that some of the people around trump curbed his most extreme impulses. there were adults in the room. if you will. and as much as republicans in the senate claim they are all aboard the mag a train. many of them still hope there are some adults in the room at the end of the day. republican senator rand paul publicly opposed his idea of using the u.s. military on u.s. soil for deportations. that appears to be a bridge too far for senator rand paul. again, it is a low bar. but it is a bar. and the moment for congress torein in trump's worst instims is right now. pete hegseth appears to be more than willing to go along with everything trump is asking for and will treat anyone who stands in trump's way as an enemy of the state. in addition to being a fox

newspersonality hegseth is also a prolific author. he has published three books in the last four years. jonathan chate at the atlantic spent the last few weeks reading all the books. the american crusade calls for the goal of utter annihilation without which america cannot and will not survive. hegseth writes, our american crusade is not about literal swords and our fight is not with guns. yet. in the war on warriors he views the american left as actual enemies of the united states. the expectation is that we will defend america against all enemies both foreign and domestic. not political opponents, but real enemies. yes. marxists are our enemies and he doesn't mince words about how the u.s. military should treat the enemies. in the war on warriors he makes claim he considers the very idea of rules of war just more

woke nonsense. our enemies should get bullets. not attorneys. here's how he reflected on all of hegseth's recent books as a whole. the main question i was looking to answer when i started reading hegseth's collective works. after having read them, i don't think he would even wait for the order. joining me now is senator richard blumenthal democrat of connecticut who's on the judiciary and armed services committees. senator, thank you so much. you have exactly the perspective and expertise we need right now. first i have to ask you know we talked a lot about matt gaetz and tulsi gabbard. pete hegseth has a ton of controversy around him. i think the sexual assault allegation is one piece of it. but those writings about turning the united states against other american citizens with whom he disagrees seems just dramatically dangerous for

somebody who might be the defense secretary. what's your reaction? >> dramatically dangerous is exactly the right way to view it. these concerns are deadly serious and you know we're talking about pam bondi. another one of the trump loyalists. apoll gists and sycophants who will do his bidding just like gaetz would have done. in the case of the department of justice, where prosecutions can be brought as retribution, at least you have the courts. >> as a stopgap. >> as a buffer, as a firewall. in the case of the department of justice if there are orders to troops. >> the department of defense. >> to shoot. in case of a protest or a gathering in a church basement or any kind of meeting, there is no restraint of the same kind and so what this kind of threat represents is something profoundly dangerous to our democracy. and that's why i have actually proposed a measure that would constrain the insurrection act

which is the legal basis for the president to order this kind of military intervention on american soil. and remember, we use the military to defend our nation. we do not use it against our own citizens on american soil. and that's the basis of our constitutional principle and al the insurrection act unfortunately the act is so broad he could misinterpret it. >> do you think senate republicans share your trepidation and do you think you'll have some bipartisan support for that measure. >> i think my republican colleagues are very sympathetic to it because it's not just about donald trump. it's a weakness in our present law. that could be misused by an independent or a democrat. in that same office. we ought move to correct it. but right now, we can see the fire on the horizon and we ought to do something about it because i think our republican

colleagues ultimately will be judged harshly by history if we fail to do so. i think this concern about the misuse of the military also deeply concerns our military. >> yeah. of course. there's also the issue of, you know, what -- hegseth as the secretary of defense might do to the actual military itself. i want to play a little bit of audio this was from earlier this month, this was pete hegseth on a podcast talking about what he wants to do if he's in charge of military. let's take a listen. >> first of all you have to fire, you know, you have to fire the chairman of the joint staffs and you have to -- obviously bring in a new secretaries of defense but any general that was involved. general admiral that was involved in the dei woke [ bleep ], you got to go. that's the only litmus test we care about. you are not training young officers to be baptized into this kind of thinking. and them, you know, whatever

the standards -- whatever the combat standards were say in i don't know, 1995. let's just make those the standards. and as far as recruiting, hire the guy that, you know, did "top gun: maverick" and create some really ads that motivate people to want to serve. >> "top gun: maverick" and throw away the combat standards and rewind time till like 30 years ago when warriors could be real warriors. i mean, that -- raises like alarm bells for me. i don't know how you hear that. and whether you think that there's a real possibility that someone like hegseth as defense secretary could turn america's fighting forces into like the army of maga warriors. >> even more important than alarm bells for me are alarm bells for our military. because we need professional war fighters. we need people like the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. chairman brown. who is a professional officer of the air force. a general who knows how to do a military record, knowhow knows how to hire and promote and recruit and retain the best fighters in the world.

which is what our national defense requires and he knows how to keep secrets. >> yes. >> which -- unfortunately, peoplelike hegseth don't know how to do and i want to mention one other point that i think is really important on sexual assault. chairman brown, chairman milli before him, their predecessors, our military have focused on trying to stop sexual assault in the military. >> yes. >> i worked with senator gillibrand for the last 15 years. it is still a scourge to have someone leading the military who himself is potentially guilty of sexual assault is such a violation of public trust. and when he says he was cleared, no. he was not cleared. they stopped the investigation. we don't know why. and we need to get to the bottom of why the investigation in fact was stopped in the armed services committee before he -- we can confirm him. >> do you think he will? >> we're going to look for

those files. i think we need them. we deserve them before we make judgments. and i would challenge roger wicker as he got into that elevator. >> we're looking for a fulsome -- >> to do a fulsome investigation and tell the american people what we found. they deserve the truth. it shouldn't be classified or confidential. the american people deserve to know the truth. >> well, hopefully we are on our way to doing that. senator blumenthal. great to see you in-person. thank you for your perspective only all this. >> thank you. still aid this evening get reaction from inside the justice department to trump's choice of pam bondi to replace matt gaetz as potential attorney general. but first, has donald trump's republican party finally experienced a moment of shame? regret? i don't know. maybe. they might have. we're going to talk about that coming up next.

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♪ ♪ you don't have the votes. that is what president-elect donald trump reportedly told matt gaetz during a phone called to ending gaetz's hopes of becoming attorney general. on the call, first reported by the bulwarks mark caputo. trump reportedly said the senators aren't moving. today nbc news confirmed that at least five republican senators already made it clear they would vote against gaetz and now this marks trump's

first defeat but what does it mean for his pick for secretary of defense pete hegseth facing serious sexual assault allegations that he denies and what might it mean for pam bondi now choice for attorney general? joining me now are tim miller co-host of the bulwark podcast and mark lean wits. gentlemen, thank you for joining us tonight. i'm trying to think of how to categorize the behavior of senate republicans here, tim. shred of decency comes to mind. none of them really came out and said to the media publicly they would not vote for matt gaetz but clearly saying that behind closed doors and it sound like it mattered. do you have -- i won't say renewed faith in senate republicans to maybe withstand the pressures of trump -- but do you have any more optimism after a day like today? >> maybe slightly. all of these courageous republicans you know who go on background and talk to people like mark to criticize donald

trump over the last nine years, that finally became useful. right? you can be courageous and talking on background reporters and apparently you can be courageous in private with matt gaetz. so i don't -- i thought the gaetz was going to get through to be candid. the fact he withdrew means i should update my priors a little bit about what might be happening on the hill. i remain deeply skeptical that when the rubber meets the road, on one of these other nominations, and, you know, when the nominees actually put up and they have to go to the vote and they have to vote against donald trump, i think it's going to be challenging to get more than two or three votes. but they only need four right? they have a very narrow majority here. so i think -- i guess i would update my priors to say maybe there's a glimmer of hope which is nice. a glimmer of hope is nice. but, you know, i think this might have been a pretty unique

situation that was -- that was maybe unique to matt just because of his let's say not so swell personal relationships with his colleagues. >> yeah. you know what? i was thinking that too as well, mark, that this was made more difficult for gaetz by the fact that most people including people in his own party don't like him on capitol hill. and it doesn't necessarily portend anything for pete hegseth who faces a serious sexual assault potential scandal alleged scandal. and on paper, should be equally as disturbing to the same senate republicans but will he will be? i don't know. do you have a thought about whether this is an apples to apples comparison or is it apples to pomegranates? >> well, first of all, i do think i mean, to sort of pick up on what tim was saying. the rubber never hit the road here, gaetz made it hard for himself and easy for trump to sort of pull away from this. also made it pretty easy for the senators because they never really had to speak -- as tim

said publicly and never had to really say anything for the record that would be counted and get noticed here. they sort of spoke quietly en masse i guess and gaetz was was a unique case. i think the larger thing here is you can argue that hegseth is equally problematic. you can even go, you know, you can say kennedy is problematic and you can say gabbard is problematic. i mean there's a scenario here which is probably very unreal itselfic given the recent history the sycophantic nature of the republican party today in which four, six, whatever, some number of them could actually lock arms and say no. we actually want to have some decency here. some shred of check and balance. and you are going to, you know, put some nominees up that we can actually debate and confirm. you know,, we have not seen anything in the ballpark of that happening yet. but look, i mean i think it does become a little easier to do this going forward once you have one nominee withdraw. which is what we had today. >> you know, to that end, tim, there's the dynamics, there are

the dynamics at play among the senate republican conference. there's also the trump of it all. i like you had a hard time believing that trump would pull a nominee or make the phone call you don't have the votes. right? i mean, just sticking it to members of his own party making them walk the plank is something he -- from if the past is prologue, something he likes to do and would have been expected to do again. but mark caputo reports dumping gaetz constituted a remarkable about face for donald trump. who would not only been adamant that gaetz would be the attorney general but floated the possibility of using a recess appointment to install him and it signified an awareness by trump that fighting such pointed battles within his own party wasn't worth the sacrifice of time. it's hard for me to see the words awareness and donald trump in the same sentence, tim. but what do you think of that? i mean trump just saying it's not worth the headache. >> yeah. i mean, look, i think the best jobs -- we should give donald

trump in this situation is like he's -- he is not a long-term strategic thinker to say the least right? this is the person that lives off the land and goes with his gut and for whatever reason a confluence of events maybe one conversation that he had today, maybe -- the other thing is my sense is up a little bit on this. like matt gaetz sent out a tweet i believe responding to j.d. vance where he said he can fight for, you know, the administration from another post. kind of a vague term. another post. maybe they figured something out in the back. that i think that remains to be seen. so to me, i think the question is does -- does this type of strategic donald trump stay or is a one off thing? and i'm -- i'm inclined to think it's a one off but i think it's something to monitor over the next few months because as mark says it could be a question. mitch mcconnell doesn't like robert f. kennedy's anti-vax stance. there's a couple of hawks left in the senate that don't like

tulsi gabbard and pete hegseth i would go further than both of you and say he's less qualified and more serious objections to him than could have been put forth by matt gaetz. if trump is facing rejection on multiple fronts, do we see the lash out trump, the bullying trump. the one that wants to humiliate people and my suspicion is yes and we'll see. >> can we talk about mitch mcconnell for a minute? also struck by this mark. tim is pointing out mitch mcconnell made himself the head of the senate rules committee like leapfroggings over other people who might have it. he's retiring and not a fan of trump and trump insulted racist slurs against mitch mcconnell's wife. he could go out like yosemite sam and be like not on my watch. he could link arms with thom tillis. how effective how old he be as a bulwark against trump? just as a character that knows the ins and outs of the senate.

>> certainly be effective because i mean the loyalty that he has coming in with his other members just from his time as leader. he's outgoing at this point. not outgoing verbally. as far as leaving the job of majority leader or republican leader at this point. so he's no longer in leadership. you know,, the rules job is interesting. but i do think that he'll have a level of independence that he's never had before. having said that, i mean, we've seen mitch mcconnell over and over again come up way short of being any kind of meaningful bulwark against donald trump. despite his own personal reservations. i would be very, very hesitant to have any confidence about that whatsoever. >> yes i should caveat that. i mean only in terms of nominating absolutely bonkers people to the cabinet. and bonkers really like extreme level capital b. bonkers

italics and bond and underlined. to that end, tim, i wonder what you make about this like, you know, if we talk about shame or republicans recognizing they are way out there on some of this stuff, you know, the mass deportation camps, there has been a lot of human cry from people like tom homan who's trump's appointed border czar refusing to acknowledge that camps could be set up despite what our reporting tells us about land in texas maybe being set aside to set up mass continuations and then you know on fox news using the phrase superdetention facility instead of mass concentration camps for potentially undocumented migrants. do you think that reflects a kind of acknowledgment on the part of the party that they could be in real trouble when they try and execute some of these more nefarious draconian policy ideas? >> look, if trump is anything he's aware of image you know. and so i do think it's possible

that they could be -- concerned about backlash. i don't look at the immigration thing and so key in the early days to just focus and hone in from the media side and on the democratic side, of what they're actually doing. and responding to actions. because like it really could go either way. on the one hand you have steven miller and man and the deportation effort is the most efficient and draconian effort of the whole administration. i could totally see that. on the other hand you can see the wall redeux right? where they the a couple of deportations and a couple of press conferences and the wall is built a couple of miles and trump declares it was the greatest wall ever and the best deportation effort of all time. and he's the champion and then they move on. like either of these outcomes are possible and so i think that like the guessing right now is probably a fool's errand. >> yeah.

guessing is definitely a fool's errand. [ laughter ] someone who tries to plan a cable news show for most to have day and then 5:00 hits and -- tim miller, mark, thank you guys for making the time tonight. >> thanks alex. still ahead this evening, how is the department of justice reacting to trump's new choice for attorney general? i'll talk to nbc's david rhode about that coming up next. step two download jackpocket and start ordering tickets for your favorite state lottery game. step three let the good times roll. jackpocket is so easy to use from home or on the go, and there have been over $500m in total prizes won. so now the easiest way to enjoy the lottery is right in your pocket. jackpocket. download america's number one lottery app today.

now people got to see four years without donald trump and to see what happened to our country. and remember his hauntingly prophetic speech in 2020 where he said, what is fuel now? about $2 a gallon. biden got in office, what would it be? $8, $9 and sure enough, look what happened. >> yes. look what happened. gas is about $3 a gallon. that was trump's new choice for u.s. attorney general pam bondi proving she meets trump's number one qualification. willing to defend trump on tv. joining me now is david rohde for nbc news. david, thank you for being here. you have your ear to the ground and have been doing some amazing and essential reporting. do you have any initial reactions or sense of how the pam bondi pick is going to go over? >> there's a -- there is from a former official you know, the

live thing here. this person doesn't know her that well but the point of what they said is i think whoever he picks is bound to be loyal to him to trump. and that's the key test for him. i don't expect him to pick someone who will be honorable and loyal to the constitution. they'll be loyal to him. >> is there a sense that she will be more skillful -- well, fill, actually before i ask you that, it is not as if pam bondi is without her own scandal right? this is someone who's out there in pennsylvania promoting the big lie and this is someone who's entangled in a scandal where trump may have donated to her campaign for attorney general in exchange for her dropping an investigation into his fraudulent trump university. do you think any of that matters in any of this and if it doesn't, what does that moan for the department of justice if this is the nation's top law enforcement official. >> what matters to me most

he'llly is pennsylvania. the press conference in pennsylvania. saying donald trump won the state and basically backed the big lie. and look, i want to give credit where credit is due. bill barr didn't do that. bill barr said joe biden won the 2020 election. jeff rosen and a bunch of other officials threatened to resign when trump tried to put in jeff clark in 2020. who was also going to push the big lie. so i think she's more -- she has more management experience and i think she's much smoother and i think she's got a good chance of being confirmed. so she's much smoother than gaetz. but she might follow the same things. i was like everybody looking at clippings and at one point she was decrying jack smith in the prosecutors the people that have talked about prosecuting and she called all of these people jack smith horrible meme who had weaponized the -- people who had weaponized the justice department. we don't know. i have talked to current justice department officials before she was announced and they were all hiring lawyers. >> wow. do you think -- i mean, given

the record of what she's done and what she said and you know sort of where her loyalties lie. do you think that's going to have a tangible result on the staffing at the department of jus dis? i mean, people -- justice? i mean, people you are saying they're lawyering up and jack smith is leaving. do you think there's going to bean exodus a significant exodus if someone like pam is the head of the doj? >> with gaetz we didn't hear about that. he was much more of an inyour face person. you investigated me, now i'm going to investigate you. i don't think people are going to leave. they're going to stay and follow rules and not going to violate, you know, procedures and not going to violate the law. many of them can't leave. they don't make a lot of money in washington. and they're all sort of waiting for pensions and paying off mortgages. so then it's two scenarios special council who would be appointed by trump and by pam bondi if confirmed that would carry out long investigations. and another thing they're pushing out hard is sort of firing -- there's a belief

there's all these liberals embedded in the career workers who work for republicans and democrats you know. i have not found that in my reporting but they could be trying to force out a lot of those people. but many, many people they don't think they'll be convicted you snow. jack smith they didn't do anything. proper but they're expecting long legal bottles and they're lawyering up. >> do you think we should gird ourselves for a -- you mentioned special counsels. it is -- a reality that seems almost destined to come to pass. if you -- if there are targets that should worry about, you know, legal entanglements, is it joe biden? is it hunter biden in i mean what sense have you gotten about the target list given what trump has been saying. >> the most vocal people have been really pushing on jack smith and letitia james here in new york. really going after jack smith and it could go like the durham

investigation. that was an effort to sort of expose criminality by jim comey and john brennan at the cia they were all part of this cabal. you know, durham didn't find that much. he had the two trials he didn't win. so that's what could happen. so lots of investigations. but few convictions if any. >> david rohde with your ear to the ground. please keep coming back sir. thanks for your time tonight. we will be right back. curl defin style your life the way you want. ♪♪ tresemme, style your way.

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