powering possibilities. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. matt gaetz is out, pam bondi is in. so who, again, is pam bondi and how different is she really than

someone like matt gaetz? bondi is the former ag of florida, before donald trump came along, your clearest memory of her may have been her staunch opposition to implementing obamacare in florida or for her opposition to same sex marriage. back before 2016, she was considered a pretty mainstream republican, aligned with the party on ideology of the time. but when trump decided to run, bondi made a strategic choice, first withholding her endorsement, and then choosing donald trump over fellow floridian marco rubio in march of 2016, after super tuesday and right around the time it was becoming clear that donald trump was heading for the nomination. it was a big moment in florida politics, and one that would signal what bondi became next, which is close to full blown maga, defending donald trump in his first impeachment hearing, denying the results of the 2020 election, and as recently as

august, going after the justice department and donald trump's own chosen language on fox news. >> when republicans take back the white house, you know what's going to happen, the department of justice, the prosecutors will be prosecuted, the bad ones. the investigators will be investigated because the deep state, last term for president trump, they were hiding in the shadows. but now they have a spotlight on them and they can all be investigated. >> so what exactly is the difference between pam bondi and matt gaetz? the style certainly is different, the way she talks. she's not plagued by scandal like matt gaetz is, but is the substance any different? joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles. all right, ryan. what is the word on pam bondi in the senate? i imagine so far it is different than matt gaetz. >> reporter: i think that's exactly right, katy, your assessment is spot on. i think that anybody other than matt gaetz would be welcome to

senate republicans who are nervous about this pick to begin with. and so the bar wasn't that high to cross, but pam bondi crossed it to a certain extent. you asked a question, how is she different than matt gaetz, perhaps the most distinguishing difference between her and gaetz is her experience. she actually has worked as a prosecutor. she spent a lot of time in a courtroom, she worked as a prosecutor at the local level and was the attorney general of florida, which is a very big state, and is in line with the type of experience one would need before taking on the job as the united states attorney general. so that is one of the big differences between her and gaetz who had very little, if any, experience as a courtroom lawyer, much less a prosecutor. but that is not to say she is not going to face some scrutiny, even from some of the republicans on the panel. remember, she can only lose three republicans and still win the nomination and you can bet she's going to be pressed during these confirmation hearings about a lot of the stuff you outlined previously, but also

how much she was a part of the stop the steal effort. she was an election denier. she was helping to file lawsuits and speaking on behalf of the trump campaign during that period of time after the 2020 election where trump was making false claims about the election results. so, she doesn't come without some baggage. it may not be the same level of baggage that matt gaetz did, but you have to imagine that her path to confirmation is much, much better than matt gaetz's. but there still could be a lot that could come out between now and then as we have seen, katy, these candidates are not apparently getting vigorous vetting by the trump team before they're announced. >> all right, ryan nobles, thank you very much. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, "new york times" reporter and msnbc contributor jeremy peters, staff writer at the new yorker, usan glasser and cornell belcher. jeremy, pam bondi has been on the trump scene now for a while. we watched her defend him in the impeachment hearings, after the

2020 election crisscrossing states like pennsylvania, trying to prove that there was fraud alongside rudy giuliani and, you know, it goes back even to 2013, donald trump made a $25,000 donation to an association having to do with her governorship, and she didn't -- she declined to prosecute the trump university case. that was a big scandal back then. how was she not the first choice for ag? given how close she is, she's a floridian, donald trump is surrounding himself with floridians, why are we hearing about her now? first time we heard about her is when he announced she would be ag for him. >> it is always potentially a mistake to attribute any type of motives and strategory to trump's machinations. nominating matt gaetz was always going to be difficult, that they never really thought it was going to happen. but what do you get matt gaetz

by nominating him? he gets to step down from his house seat, the investigation goes away, the report may never see the light of day, though some of it is starting to dribble out thanks to my colleagues at "the times" and then he goes either into the private sector as a consultant, which is a very lucrative business in the trump outer circle, or he has some other kind of political career, maybe he runs against ron desantis for governor. i don't think either way we heard the end of the matt gaetz story. >> so, pam bondi, though, in substance, is she going to be much different than matt gaetz given that she was going out on fox news and she was saying it is time to investigate the investigators, the justice department has been weaponized against donald trump, do you expect that she is the kind of person that would start, you know, if not indicting liz cheney on week one, like matt gaetz was reported to have said to senators he wasn't going to do it on week one, should we expect there will be political

indictments? >> i don't know, katy, we can expect political indictments, but i think we can expect that there will be political investigations at the very least. in order to have an indictment, you got to have some people who will do the job of investigating and indicting a crime. and one of the biggest guardrails that we still have at the department of justice is the rank and file prosecutors, thousands of them, who fill up that department. how they will react to a pam bondi if and when she is confirmed remains to be seen. but i would say the primary difference between pam bondi and matt gaetz is she is better positioned to actually execute on some of the threats two of them have made. pam bondi has more than 25 of experience as a prosecutor. she's never been in the federal department of justice, but, of course, that's what she has todd blanche, an experienced federal prosecutor for. between the two of them, if there is a will, i would argue that there is at least a way into those investigations if not

to the indictments themselves. >> susan, what was your reaction to bondi? >> yeah, i think remember that loyalty is an enormous premium for donald trump as he looks to stock his second term government with the kinds of people who won't stand up to him in the way that some of the people did in his first term cabinet. he did not have a sort of cadre of tested loyal trumpists when he first surprised even himself and got elected and i think that, so one of the things is that she has proven herself an outspoken maga person from the very beginning. she is very television friendly, and that is really if you look at the through line of the cabinet what is the through line? fox news appearance. so, she has got that going for her. she is a kind of a spokesperson for the legal wing of maga number one. number two, in terms of loyalty and having been there -- been outspoken and going along with his lies about the 2020 election, i think that's a litmus test for many of these

jobs for donald trump. it is particularly problematic for a lawyer, never mind an attorney general, so i'm very interested to see whether the senators also view this as an issue. there are a handful of republican senators who presumably actually still care about undermining confidence in american elections. donald trump and pam bondi certainly stopped talking about election fraud as soon as donald trump won the election fair and square. i don't see any democrats planning to storm the capitol on january 6th of this year. so, that to me is the big question, really it revolves around her advocacy of these lies about the 2020 election from the attorney general. >> i think that's an important point to make. jonathan chate, welcome and congrats on the new big. >> thank you. >> she was out there denying the results of the 2020 election, trying to overturn it with the

specious lawsuits. none of them got anywhere. they were all thrown out. what does that say about her judgment? you're talking about somebody who is trying to overturn the will of the people, saying that there was fraud when there was none, she's a lawyer, she probably could have seen that. being the person to head the justice department, the person to go out there and investigate these sorts of things, the next time around. >> well, there is not going to be any investigations into donald trump or anything that donald trump did this time around. you know, i think we can just take that for granted. you know, that wasn't the policy under biden, they allowed an investigation into hunter biden to proceed under the biden administration, but that's not how donald trump rolls. he's looking for loyalists. i think, you know, if you want to be totally cynical about it, i think everybody has accepted that as a reality and is just

looking for which gradation of corruption they're ready to accept at the state. but i think looking at it from a blue sky perspective, we shouldn't accept that kind of compromise. you're totally right, it ought to be disqualifying that the lie of the 2020 election ought to disqualify someone from high place of government. but from trump's perspective, i think it is the opposite, probably a qualification for an important post that you're willing to go along with him on that. >> i wonder if what we saw from the senate on matt gaetz will apply to anybody else. is this the senate finding their backbone or the senate making a stand on one particularly egregious choice and then allowing donald trump what he wants with the rest of the nominees? >> well, i think there are always limits to the amount of backbone that any republican in washington is willing to show when up against donald trump. but if the allegations against are deeply

serious, continue to mount and dribble out as they have been, i could see that nomination on the rocks. people inside trump world said to me they don't expect that nomination to survive. some do. we'll see. but i think hegseth is definitely the next who likely could run into trouble. >> you got any more on the hegseth allegations? >> not yet, but as we were discussing yesterday, the monterey police department is not the only law enforcement agency that was involved in investigating that. there is at least one other police department where the accuser lives that interviewed her and has a report, the monterey county district attorney's office has a completed memo for which i have an open records request right now. somebody in our profession is going to find additional documents, having to do with pete hegseth's accuser and as you and i discussed yesterday, if they were willing to overthrow the gaetz nomination, where the accusers were people that posed some credibility challenges, that posed some problems in terms of how we

conceive of a good accuser or a good victim, the hegseth accuser here is very differently situated than the gaetz accusers. many of whom worked in sex work, many of whom continued to work in, for example, one of whom works in pornography still, but the hegseth accuser was somebody who is from the republican party, in some way, she was married, 30 years old with two children, with her husband and her kids sleeping upstairs at the time of the episode. if and when we learn more about her, i continue to believe the hegseth nomination will be even more challenging for some of the republican senators who could not countenance gaetz's nomination. >> part of why donald trump and his allies say they're entitled to picks like this is that he's got a mandate. i had byron donalds on the other day saying donald trump can have whomever he wants because the voters gave him that power and then told me it was the biggest electoral win since ronald reagan. does he have that mandate?

was it the biggest electoral win since ronald reagan? >> well, i know we're in a reality where facts apparently don't matter, but, no, it wasn't even -- it wasn't even close. in fact, you know, if you look at the raw vote, he still -- he got -- if you look at the raw vote from 2020, he's still off of what biden got by a good long ways in 2020. i think part of the problem for republicans with these -- with these nominations is that they got -- many have to face re-election in two years. donald trump doesn't. and i will underline that point here is that they're going to have to go out there and defend or even vote for some of these people and all these allegations and sexual misconduct and it gives democrats an opportunity to go on the defensive early on in the cycle. you have a house -- at least congress is going to be, you

know, one way -- a handful of seats, right? and the last thing you want to do is even have senators or even members of congress having to defend daily, right, the sexual misconduct allegations, and these other sort of far flung allegations as opposed to being focused on what they're supposed to be focused on, at least with what i was told is inflation. >> we're going to put a quick pin in this kosks.conversation. thank you to lisa rubin for joining us. more on pete hegseth, jonathan chait says he considers himself at war with everything one to d trump's left. the growing case for populism in the democratic party and what embracing it could do to claw back the working class voters and potentially a lot more that the democrats lost this past election. and later, bible-based curriculum is coming to texas public schools.

what today's narrow school board vote, board of education vote, means for the separation of church and state. we're back in 90 seconds. f church and state we're back in 90 seconds [♪ take a little ♪] giving without expecting something in return. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪] (♪♪) when life spells heartburn... how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact.

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choice for cabinet pick as the most dangerous. the man who emerges from the page appears to have sunk deeply into conspiracy theories that are bizarre, even by contemporary republican standards, but that have attracted strangely little attention. he considers himself to be at war with basically everybody to trump's left, and it is by no means clear that he means metaphorically. jonathan chait is with us, cornell belcher and jeremy peters. the danger he poses, not just to the way the defense democrat operates overseas, but how it operates here at home more specifically. >> yeah. i found his books fascinating and i was surprised how little attention the ideas have gotten. there are a lot of strange ideas in these books, but the one that i think is most pertinent to how

he would function as defense secretary is that he is trying to erase the line between the war that the united states fights between combatants overseas, a war he's participated in, and the war against domestic enemies to his political left. he frames the latter in very stark marshall terms. he's erasing the distinction between how you would treat an enemy combatant and how you would treat a political opponent in the united states. and that's a really problematic idea in general, and especially because during his first term donald trump wanted defense secretaries to shoot peaceful protesters in the united states, and in his defense secretaries resisted those demands. hegseth doesn't seem like somebody who would resist those demands, he seems like someone who is enthusiastic about those demands.

>> what is the deal with the vitriol toward the opposite political party? there has been deep partisanship, angry words tossed back and forth, it has gotten uglier since the '90s, but this is different. the way that donald trump acolytes talk about democrats is in dangerous terms, calling them the enemy from within as donald trump did on the stump and as a lot of these cabinet nominee picks will speak about them both publicly, but also in their own books. >> yeah, i think this is an incredibly important point, katy, essentially it is not just the enemy within, it is calling democrats and opponents vermin, you know, human scum is another term that donald trump has repeatedly used. so, you know, many of his maga acolytes, parroting the leader in this, but more disturbingly, you know, from donald trump, he in effect is parroting the

language of dictators the world over. that, to me, this was in the first term as well, it goes back to that, him using this language against opponents. it is really the language you don't hear from democratic small d leaders in other countries or in our own country until donald trump. one of the ways in which he stands out the most. i think jonathan's point in doing this piece on the nominee for the defense department is extremely important because i think that is the shift that we have seen in the republican party's ideology, essentially from being a very national security focused party that is looking at the nature of american leadership and threats overseas to turning inward to the threat within and i think he's very representative of what donald trump has done to the republican party and how he shifted even the ideology and the beliefs of the republican party. >> why is donald trump getting this chance to put people like pete hegseth in place, to try to

get tulsi gabbard as dni, rfk as health and human services director, dr. oz to be the oversee medicare and medicaid. we were talking about matt gaetz, now pam bondi. why is he getting the opportunity to put people in place that are so antithetical to the positions that they're being charged with holding? >> because he thinks he deserves it. he thinks he's earned it with this election. >> why do the voters give him that? why are they saying to him, go ahead and break things? >> i don't think they're giving him cart blanche to pick whoever he wants and, you know, put people who are clearly unqualified into these incredibly powerful positions. i would imagine these picks do not poll very well and probably poll a lot under 50%, which is just about what trump got in the election, if people even know who they are. but these are the behaviors of a guy who we know is reckless when he believes he's winning and he did win and he won in the popular vote, won the electoral

college, he and his aides have reminded us constantly. this is how he tends to act when he thinks he's got the us const. this is how he tends to act when he thinks he's got the political advantage. it is very reckless and these nominations fall apart, it won't be because of some war with the republican establishment, which is always been, you know, a go-to thing for him, right? when trump is losing, someone else is cheating him and it is either the democrats or the republican establishment. there are hardly any republican establishment senators left, trump has driven most of them out, so, why are these nominees running into trouble? because of trump. he will have nobody to blame but himself and i doubt he's going to be able to whip up the maga base into some type of frenzy over someone like pete hegseth. >> i don't know. i think he's very adept at skirting responsibility. he just throws whoever is in

front of him under the bus when he needs to. i wonder, cornell, donald trump learned from the past election the lesson he got was that he could do whatever. he got pretty wild there toward november, saying just, you know, whatever he wanted. the lesson is clear that he took was that he believes he has a mandate and he can choose whoever he wants and the voters are giving him the opportunity to get the retribution he was railing against. what is the lesson that democrats are taking with how to go after this stuff, how to push back against this stuff after what they were not able to do in november? >> well, look, you know, victories have multiple variables and defeats have multiple variables and there is far too many people throwing around, like -- look, also missing from this conversation from hegseth is white nationalism. i don't know why we keep dancing around that.

he was targeted as insider threat, right, and there is links and conversations about, you know, christian nationalism, white nationalism. let's not pretend it is not part of the problem and the issue is here also is you have someone who may be linked to white nationalists being in charge of our military. that's a real problem and i think that's a real problem we can have a conversation with the american people with. let's talk more about the election. look, you know, about -- >> i mean, specifically, cornell, how do they push back and go and tell how they send that message, where they put that message, you know, the message of how to communicate to a broader swath of americans? >> well, you can make it a -- there was 6 million voters missing from who voted for biden who didn't bother to turn out this time around. most of those voters happen to be black and brown. donald trump was able to actually grow the white share of

electorate, the white share of the electorate was shrinking, which is incredible. he had 2 million more white voters while we were down about 6 million brown voters. all this conversation about how we got to get more sort of tv -- i hear you saying working class, but 32% voted for harris and she lost. they made up a larger share of the electorate because he surged that vote. part of the conversation should be how do we get back those 5 million, 6 million voters who this time around and they look more like diverse america decided to sit this one out. part of that conversation has to be the threats that people like these white nationalists and these -- i'm sorry, they're not just loyalists, but people who have adoration and put donald trump first and foremost above the laws and above the work of the american people, i think that's part of the conversation

that democrats have to have or a broader swath of america. >> we're going to have another conversation just in a moment with the lieutenant governor here in new york about democrats' next move and his advice. we'll do that in a moment. he's here and i know that jeremy peters, you're sticking around for us. so are you, cornell, and so is jonathan. we're going to say thank you to susan, appreciate it. don't go anywhere. the state's lieutenant governor joins me in a moment with his message to democrats. who they should be speaking to and how. don't go anywhere. ey should be o and how. don't go anywhere. n quickly cree a website, and ai will customize it for you. get your business out there and get more customers in here. no sweat... for you anyway. create a beautiful website in minutes with godaddy. it's payback time. all these years, you've worked hard. you fixed it. you looked after it. create a beautiful website in minutes maybe it's time for your home to start taking care of you. we've invested in our home, we've worked on it,

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new today, democratic senator from connecticut chris murphy believes he knows how democrats can win back working class voters. and it starts with a new polling memo he is circulating which was first reported by punch bowl news. it says democrats need to be talking more about, quote, white corporations and billionaires have too much and why democrats are the only party that is serious about putting that power back in the hands of workers. joining us now, lieutenant governor of new york antonio delgado. we have you on because you have your own op-ed about this out as well. and you're talking about how specifically democrats have stopped addressing working class voters and not just working class voters, you talk about the state of new york and what happened in this election in

this state. explain. >> i think it is important to understand that when we're talking about the real threat to democracy and why people, particularly individuals and communities that are in the margins are checking out it is because they're experiencing a sustained level of economic inequality, where they're seeing a lot of concentrated wealth and living all around it and yet their lives and what they're experiencing, day in and day out, aren't getting in he better. the top 1% of this country right now owns more wealth than the bottom 92%. 60% of americans are living paycheck to paycheck. that is a lived experience that is happening in folks' lives every single day. we as democrats have been talking about championing economic inequality, talking about trying to fight for collective bargaining and the like, and yet when it comes to effective change, change that is impacting people's lives, the

numbers aren't changing. a couple of days ago, i went down to do a turkey giveaway for common pantry. i couldn't not tell you how devastating it was to see the line around the block, hundreds of people, midday, there, white, black, asian, latino, young, old, everything in between, with kids, midday, lining up, right here in new york city, for food to feed their families. surrounded by wealth. >> yeah. >> the contrast speaks for itself. and if we don't get to the heart of that issue, then people are going to rightfully so what does it mean to live in a democracy? that's the threat. >> this is a democratically run city, a democratally run state, been that way for a long time, bloomberg was an independent.

how -- when people look around and say, i don't think either party works for me, do the democrats have an argument against that? do they have a valid argument? can they point to something and say here's what i've done for you when you're the street likeu just mentioned? >> it is a combination of factors. i think we defined who we are, without ultimately following through on the action. >> it is all talk. >> a lot of times it ends up being empty rhetoric. and there is a lot of money that might get labeled for x, y and z that sounds good on paper, but ultimately what is it doing in the community? how is it reaching into the community? and here is the key, are we connected to those individuals in the community, make sure we know that if we put money with a nonprofit or community center or with the individual or group of folks doing good work, it is going to have the impact that is desired. >> how do you cut through the red tape and get things changed? how do you change housing regulations in this city?

how do you make sure sanitation picks up the trash? how do you change the quality of life, both here in new york city, but also in -- >> the coalition built from the ground up. not taking your cues from individuals who have the means to dictate where and when and how you spend your time. it communities, figuring out who are the stakeholders are on the ground, including everybody, including all the industry folks, including all the folks who are making these decisions from the most wealthy to those who don't have the most. and making sure there is a table of folks across there that you're being informed by, that you can make an informed decision as a leader to figure out how to move forward. what happens is when we start making these decisions from a place where only those folks who have the means and the resources to get the time to sit down with you and say we believe you should do x, y and z, the way you make that decision ultimately gets in balance. >> you talk about democrats seem willing to challenge the

institutions that caused americans to lose faith in government. the institutions themselves don't function all that smoothly. do you think government bureaucracy is bloated? there needs to be cuts? >> no question. this is part of the problem. government and the question around big government versus small government, a lot of this is not about the size of government, it is about who does government work for. who owns government? who is telling government how to work? >> lobbyists and the billionaire class? >> i think they have a very, very outsized role in how decisions get made. that doesn't change the fact, though, separate and apart from that, that the way government works from a process standpoint, oftentimes it can get in its own way. when i go down in certain communities and figure out why we're not able to meet the need of food insecurity and i hear, well, we have to make sure that we cross this t and dot this i

and if we can only do this, maybe get to us faster, that's big government getting in the way of itself and oftentimes when it comes to those less fortunate, we make it harder for the folks who need it the most to actually access it. and the folks who have the means, we don't make it as hard. so it is important to see how we're actually compounding the problem with big government when it comes to actually helping the people who need it. other part i think is important is making sure we leverage small government. when i was in congress, i introduced the direct support for communities act, which makes sure federal aid got directly to our counties, to our towns, our municipalities, irrespective of population, to make sure that they could provide meaningful services to their constituents during the pandemic. before that there was a population threshold that all of my constituents, i was in a rural district, none of them met. and so they were trying to survive the pandemic without any federal assistance until that formula came through. but i learned, when you actually

empower folks on the ground, the mayors, the supervisors, the county executives, republicans, independents, democrats, it doesn't matter, those are the folks informed and know what the needs are of the communities and you make it a streamlined process for them, they're better capable of meeting the needs of the people than us up top trying to figure out how to leverage those resources. empower folks on the ground. make sure that they have what they need and get out of the way. >> gubernatorial election coming up, are you going to be running? >> me? right now my focus is on right now, what is going on in new york, what is going on across this country. we have a lot of work to do. we got to make sure that we get this right. and certainly my focus. >> lieutenant governor anthony delgado, thank you very much for joining us. appreciate having you in studio. >> thank you. coming up, we're going to break that down. don't go anywhere. we're going break that down. don't go anywhere. and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

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gold distri. cornell belcher and jeremy peters are still with us. i know you watched that with the lieutenant governor there. cornell, to you first, what did you make of it? >> the answer is yes, right, yes -- look, i've been around long enough where democrats had more victories over the last decade now. i also take it with a grain of

salt that somehow democrats must fundamentally shift everything they have been doing -- i've also been around long enough to hear the conversation how after every loss, how if democrats only have a better economic message they would do better with white noncollege voters. 32% for biden, 32% for harris. and but at the same time, noncollege white voters grew as a share of the electorate when they're not growing as a share of the overall population. and so donald trump in the end got 2 million more white votes than he did last time. if we think that's happening because of the price of eggs, that's where our fundamental problem is because folks, he's not growing and energizing that white vote particularly those voters because of the price of eggs. they're eating their cats and dogs is not an economic conversation. >> i think you're right about that. i take your point that viewer people voted in this last election, you made that point

earlier. i think that's right. one of the wrinkles we don't talk about enough is something that struck me years ago during the trump administration, the democratic party was suddenly in a position of going to the hilt to defend institutions and institutions that democrats don't normally defend as -- in a knee jerk way as they were doing like the cia and dni and homeland security and fbi and whatever. donald trump was tacking systems. the democrats decided to flood to the systems to try to uphold it and now the democratic party, you can argue, is known for a party of status quo, a party of defending the institutions, but the institutions don't all work so well. your colleague at "the times" on the opinion page has been argue this for a while. he talks about the million dollar toilet in san francisco and how it took so long to build and so much to build because --

>> the 25 -- >> the regulations surrounding it, the environmental regulations, the impact statements, all of the stuff you have to do to get something built. now it takes so much longer, so even though the democrats are doing good things on policy, the chips and science act, et cetera, those jobs are going to take a long time to start coming to fruition because of the bureaucratic red tape. >> and to anthony delgado's point, voters of all stripes, black, white, brown, all income levels, are not seeing the democratic party take on income inequality and the vast disparity -- >> not just with words, but doing things that -- >> that's right. >> that change people's lives. >> they're not. >> quickly during the term they're in office. >> they're not. and donald trump had an opportunity after 2016 to do just that. to tax the wealthy. he did not do it. do we think he's going to do it this time? i'm not betting on it, but there is a real appetite for that type of economic populism in the democratic party.

this is what bernie sanders was talking about after the election. i think the way forward for the democratic party, one easy way to see how they regain, you know, the momentum here, is by having that type of economic populist who is not just willing to sock it to the corporations for unfairness and price rigging and stuff that kamala harris started talking about, but then stopped. but who is also willing to say that, yes, we need to do something more on immigration and crime and these issues that are really bothering people that democrats have been afraid to talk about. >> i'm out of time, but do you think that's a wrinkle worth exploring? >> yes, but we also have to face the facts that strategy is still working in this country and progressives got to stop ignoring racial issues in front of our faces. >> gentlemen, thank you so much for sticking with us for the hour. we appreciate it. coming up, bible-infused lessons are coming to public

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this afternoon, the texas board of education voted and narrowly approved a controversial new curriculum that puts the bible front and center in public classrooms, despite pushback from educators and parents, the board green lit christianity infused lessons, a decision that tests the boundaries of first amendment and the separation of church and state. joining us now, nbc news

correspondent antonia hylton. what was the debate like on this issue? >> fierce. and, by the way, bipartisan, and i mean that not that it was democrats versus republicans, but that there really was a mix. and it was incredibly diverse, you had the black community coming forward raising concerns, some of the changes were coming at the expense of lessons about slavery. this morning, native american activists spoke out about the fact they felt almost entirely excluded from the curriculum. it was a really messy and in some ways healthy debate, but a narrow majority is moving forward with this new curriculum now. >> what is it going to look like? >> it means they're going to be lessons from basically k through fifth grade that start incorporating some of jesus' sermons and lessons like the golden rule, and what proponents say, well, those are really positive lessons that people of all backgrounds would love and enjoy and it means your kid learns about good behavior. but for people who are uncomfortable with this, they

feel like it is a blurring of the line between church and state, and that it really shows preference for christianity at the expense of other faiths. >> is there any move to try to incorporate some teachings from the koran or teachings from the talmud, other teachings that may be positive and beneficial for children, much in the same way they're arguing that the bible teachings are? >> those other faiths are mentioned, but nowhere near to the extent that christianity is mentioned. it is incorporated to the extent that juneteenth in fifth grade will be taught to mention that abraham lincoln was a christian, and that part of the reason he freed black people from slavery was because of christian teachings. christianity is to thanks for, you know, to be credited for your freedom, where some historians would say that's not really the point of talking about juneteenth with students, right? >> this is going to the supreme court eventually? they're going to sue and courts will decide one way or the other all the way up to the last

court. >> there is a possibility for that. and both sides, by the way, are ready for that moment. there are activists on both sides who have been preparing for this for quite a long time. and for, you know, more christian-leaning people and right-leaning people, they're eager for that, because they're hoping it could be overturned. >> probably hoping the supreme court would say yes to it. good to have you. thank you for being here. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ when you're looking for answers, it's good to have help. because the right information, at the right time, may make all the difference. at humana, we know that's especially true when you're looking for a medicare supplement insurance plan. that's why

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