that's tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, and threads and now bluesky using the handle @weekendcapehart. and catch clips on you tube. keep xt. good evening, tonight on ayman, the president-elect finally publicly embracing project 2025 by tapping its architect russell, and trump picks pam bondi, despite her controversial history. sounding the alarm, the house passes a bill that trump could use to silent his critics. i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. donald trump has been announcing a flurry of new additions to his

administration. now after months of pretending to have nothing to do with project 2025 and claiming he barely even knows the people who wrote it, guess who he's tapped to run the office of management and budget. yep, you guessed it, project 2025 coauthor, russell vought, in his announcement, trump signaling that he actually knows vought pretty well, in fact. he stated russ knows how to end the deep state and end weaponized government. of course you'll remember that vought from this leaked footage where he told reporters from the center for climate reporting to not take trump's disavows of project 2025 seriously. >> i expect to hear ten more times how the president, you know, distancing himself from the left's, project 2025. >> and you're not worried about that? >> i'm not worried.

he's running against the brand. he's not running against any people. he's not running against any institutionings. it's interesting, he's in fact not even opposing himself to a particular policy. >> so much for championing the working class and bringing down inflation. words like dismantle, crushes and blocking are fitting because that's exactly what some of his other staff picks were hired to do. to run the department of education, linda mcmahon. not only does she have little experience with public schools but everything she has said about education seems intended to take money away from public schools to put in the hands of private ones. more importantly, the man she's now working for, donald trump told elon musk during their conversation on x back in august that he actually wants to shut down the department of education and move education back to the states. mcmahon's wrestling background could come in handy for the

demolition job she's been hired to do. speaking of privatization, trump has selected former tv host, dr. oz to run the centers for medicare and medicaid services. as the lever has reported, oz has been a supporter of medicare advantage, the privatized health insurance plan. he's pushed medicare advantage on his old tv show, and the plan to privatize as much of the health care system as possible falls in line with long held republican wishes. but privatization is not the only way we could see government agencies destroyed. when it comes to trump's pick of course of tulsi gabbard as the director of national intelligence, the basic question of experience now is actually a top concern. america's intelligence agencies are no doubt vast and complex, and gabbard has little experience with these agencies, which suggests that trump is prioritizing personal allegiance over any semblance of competence. what she has more experience

with is actually cozying up to strong men like vladimir putin and bashar al assad and at times, embracing their governments' accounts over ours. taken together, these picks all show a disdain for the very departments that they are representing. they haven't been chosen to help, reform or even fix the government, they are on a mission to gut privatize or undermining. let's bring in my panel, joining me now is julie roginsky, democratic strategist, and author of the salty politics news letter, and david corn, msnbc political analyst, and washington bureau chief for mother jones. it's great to have both of you with us. julie, surprise, surprise, russell vought gets a pretty important and serious cabinet appointment from donald trump after all of the months we have heard both trump and vought distancing themselves from one another, trump saying he doesn't know anything about project 2025. now he appoints the coauthor, one of the lead architects of

this nefarious program to head the omb. >> and not just any department. he put them in a place where he can actually dismantle the federal government just as project 2025 predicted they were going to do, to put 20,000 loyalists, which is about five times or four times the number of political appointees we have in the federal government now into places. and what this is going to do, understand, people think, we can survive four years of donald trump, but this is going to create a brain drain of people who are experts. and replace them with trump and maga loyalists who will borough in there long after donald trump is gone, long after potentially there is a vance administration gone. this is replacing experts who are there now, and have been there, who are nonpartisan for the most part with people intended to be there permanently as their replacements who are political appointees, and that's what vought wants, and that's what trump wants. by the way, this is not a secret. they said it outright throughout the last x number of years.

even before trump decided that he was going to distance himself from russ vought. to everybody who is sitting here shocked, shocked, i mean, what did you expect was going to happen. they told us. >> they told us. we voted for it, and now we're going to get it. >> david, nbc news is reporting tonight that an army lieutenant general was denied a promotion after being blocked by oklahoma senator markwayne mullin, and of course this has raised a lot of eyebrows. this move may be the first sign of trump retaliating against american military personnel for their involvement in the u.s. withdrawal from afghanistan, and it raises the question, is this more about vengeance? is this a sign of trump's vengeance and retribution that we're likely to see more of from the trump administration? >> we see if the transition, with these appointments and what we've seen in project 2025, which now is the game plan of

the new trump administration, right, that they are putting into place institutional structures to reap revenge across the board, whether it's in the military, whether it's at the justice department. we can talk about her later in the show, but pam bondi is picked to be attorney general has said they will go after the prosecutors who prosecuted trump. in the project 2025 blueprint, it says that they want to give the justice department, actually want to give the president more control over the justice department so he can ictate to the justice department what investigations to conduct. of course it's going to be interesting going after political foes, past and present, real and imagined. so it's not just a war on expertise and experience, but it is going to be a war on anyone who dissents, the critics, anyone who's gotten in the way

of trump in the past. imagine, under this new regime, if you're a cia analyst, and you're studying what's happening in ukraine or syria or africa or china, and you know what trump's policy is, and you come up with an analysis that doesn't support it, undermines it, challenges it. somehow inconvenient for the administration. that will be a job threatening activity. if you put that forward, you could well be fired. or targeted. so we're going to see a federal bureaucracy of government that's supposed to work for the people. i think eviscerated and it's going to be across the board, and, you know, many different agencies, on many different fronts. >> for all the about erration, basically a vehicle for what republicans have been wanting to do for a long time. anyone who thinks he's like defying republican dogma or

perhaps pursuing a different agenda, he's not. he wants to get rid of the department of education. he wants to privatize medicaid, he wants to demolish, public goods and putting everything in the hands of private, for profit entities. and he has elon musk with him. people think it's new and different. these have been objectives of the modern republican party for a long time. same with overturning of roe v. wade. >> sure. and look, he accomplished quite a bit in his first administration, as you said, republicans have been running against roe v. wade since 1973 when it went into effect. they did it. they got rid of it. they dismantled it, and they're going to dismantle our health care system. one example from project 2025. they want lifetime caps for medicaid recipients. remember back in the old days when sarah palin was talking about death panels, and everybody went crazy on the republican side. it's always an admission, right, the accusation is always an

admission. imagine if you have cancer or dialysis, and you have a lifetime cap on medicaid paying for it, what's going to happen when you run afoul of that cap. it's not like they're working to make medicine cheaper. are you going to be on your own? that's it. you're not going to have it paid for, and then what's going to that happen to you. so, these are things that republicans talked about, but they talked about it quietly, obliquely. frank luntz was very good, very interesting language, to try to convincing people that this wasn't the agenda. the beauty of trump is, he told us, as i said earlier, exactly what he was going to do, and now he's doing it t by the way, if you voted for him, you knew exactly what you were voting for. this is not a shock to anybody, i mean, at all. >> nobody can say they did not know. i mean, anybody who has been watching over the last four years and certainly the last year and a half of election coverage cannot say they did not know about project 2025. >> this is what the united states voted for, and, you know, to anybody who's upset about it, and anybody who's saying we can't believe this is happening, the majority of this country, not just the electoral college

but the majority of voters in this country voted specifically for this. you don't have to be watching this network or reading "the new york times" to know it because trump said it himself, at every rally he was in that this was going to happen. and now it's happening. >> to julie's point, there's a lot of evidence around the world that parties in power are losing due to inflation, and that certainly played a role in trump's victory. are we seeing trump's early picks as a sign that he is mistaking his victory for a mandate? that's the language they're using to make radical changes and gut these governments. you know, agencies that millions of americans rely on, like who wins an election wants to call it a mandate. this is not a mandate, but trump did warn everybody this was what he was going to do. there's a reason why he pretended. he was pretending. they didn't know what project 2025 was because it was a blueprint that was unpopular, app authoritarian style government. it calls for denying climate

change, throughout the government, and even sort of is adjacent to promoting christian nationalists. russ vought talked about christian nationalism as one of his priority in government. there was a reason he if this. now, whether he won by 300,000 volts or 3 million votes, former than the latter, he's going to act like he can do what he wants to do, and unless there are guardrails, unless, you know, there's some organizing of the democratic side, unless republicans start saying no to this. unless there's a popular outcry against some of this stuff they're going to be able to get away with a lot of it. there will be court challenges, there will be fights to be had, but a lot of this stuff are things that a president can do with a compliant congress, and that's the big question, how compliant the republicans will be.

>> julie, david, stick around, we've got a lot more to discuss this hour. we're going to discuss trump's long and controversial history with his new pick, attorney general pam bondi. general pam bondi. an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens or you have a parasitic infection. headache and sore throat may occur. ask your doctor if fasenra is right for you. when you live with diabetes, progress is... having your coffee like you like it

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donald trump wasted no time in replacing matt gaetz with former florida attorney general pam bondi as his new pick to run the justice department. like many of his choices, bondi and trump have a long standing reciprocal relationship. for the last few years, she has been his mouthpiece on fox news, criticizing the prosecutors going after trump, and repeating his claims of election fraud. she claim trumped won the state in 2020, and the two have that fair share of controversy. the florida attorney general's office received two dozen complaints about trump university. bondi's aides say she was

considering joining a fraud investigation into the university at the time, but just four days later, the trump foundation donated $25,000 to bondi's reelection campaign, and guess what, she decided against it. both trump and bondi denied a quid pro quo, but trump had to pay a fine in 2016 for violating federal tax laws in making that contribution. julie and david are back with me. david, you know, we've spoken a lot about how deeply unpopular and controversial matt gaetz was, but now the second pick, pam bondi as florida's attorney general, she wanted to get rid of the affordable care act, she tried to keep florida's gay marriage ban in place. she backed kyle rittenhouse, the shooter who killed two people at a black lives matter protest. what was her tenure like as the attorney general and what can we expect from her as the potential ag? >> well, you can see there, she was very combative. and she is, you know, i think it's fair to say, maga right. and she puts those policy agenda

items first, and tries to pursue them as a prosecutor. which is sort of ra ron desantis has been doing in florida for a while now. the interesting thing about here is that she's really been on trump's side all along. she came out and denied that russia attacked the 2016 election when it did. she supported his big lie about the 2020 election. and if you look at what he's been trying to do with the justice department, he's basically trying to turn it into his own private law firm, you know, try to use matt gaetz, but the other appointees are almost as important. the other top appointees he's named to the justice department, number two, three spot and below are people who are his personal defense attorneys. it's pretty unusual to take your own personal defense attorney, even to have one, as a presidential candidate, as a president-elect, and put them in charge of the justice department, and to tie it back to project 2025, the whole goal here is to make the justice

department, with all the power it has to investigate, intimidate, prosecute, and make an arm of trump's political operation. don't forget in 2016, at the convention, republican convention, pam bondi, law enforcement officer, was up there on stage, chanting lock her up. you really wouldn't want a person in charge of law enforcement in america to be engaged in that type of, you know, rhetorical abuse. >> do you think, julie, that, you know, given who matt gaetz was and the controversy that surrounded him, a, that she would have a different confirmation process, and b, if she does get the position, what would her leadership at the ag, as an ag look like. when you think of what bill barr did and the power that he had in shielding trump with the mueller report and all of the shenanigans that were, you know, involved -- that he was involved in in trying to cover it up, i

guess, if you will, squashing the potential investigation into potential bribe from the government of egypt to trump in 2017 in the amount of $10 million. the attorney general has a powerful role, and trump wants to make this his personal lawyer. >> let's not kid yourselves, whether it's matt gaetz or pam bondi, person x, whoever it's going to ultimately be. i think it's probably going to be pam bondi, it's going to be somebody who's going to use the justice department as trump's law firm. he put his personal lawyers in as top officials already and why it's going to be the person at the helm. pam bondi doesn't have problems. matt gaetz, she didn't allegedly have sex with a 17-year-old girl. she didn't allegedly use viagra to quote, unquote, go all night, to quote markwayne mullin, republican senator. nevertheless, what matt gaetz was going to do and what pam bondi is going to do and what

whoever is in that role is going to do is exactly the same thing. they are going to ensure, first and foremost, that they hollow out the justice department to anybody who does not subscribe to the maga world view. these lawyers who have made millions and millions of dollars in private law firms decided to work for the justice department because they believe in government and ervice, they're going to be gone to be replaced with people who have been vetted by the federalist society or project 2025 or whoever is in charge of the vetting and they're going to be in there for a very long time. that's one. and two, it's going to function effectively as an arm of donald trump's personal vendetta law firm which is that he feels incredibly aggrieved that the justice department went after him, and now he's going to use the justice department to go after everybody he feels aggrieved, went after him, including lawyers within the justice department. look, again, i keep saying this, i don't want to sound like a downer.

this is who we voted for. it's no surprise. whoever is in that role is almost immaterial because it's going to be somebody carrying out donald trump's agenda, not the attorney general. who's supposed to be the nation's attorney, not president trump's attorney. >> is there any way to shore up guardrails so that this doesn't happen as, you know, as explicitly as we expect it to happen. can the democrats in congress, with limited overnight, the minority capacity in congress, can they do anything, can the media do anything, officials do anything to ensure that the doj does not become trump law firm? >> just remember what doj does, you know, prosecutes criminals. it also prosecutes corporations that pollute the environment. goes after antitrust cases, does counter terrorism, goes after

domestic terrorists. there's a lot there, and it's supposed to do this, you know, more or less absent from politics. so imagine trump being able -- vetting everything it does, and who it's targeting and who it's letting go. tremendous, tremendous abuses of power are going to be potentially here. so you ask how do you stop this? well, you know, without having any democratic power in congress, all you have is the ability to point things out. and to the media, could be members of congress, and say, look what they're doing here. and sort of work towards 2018, the midterms then. so i think there's going to be a lot of work for reporters, and my lunch hunch is, my fear is, aren't enough reporters to kovrp the -- cover the potential abuses. >> the media is going to have to be more vigilant than ever.

>> there are also not enough people in the democratic party who know how to message well, and that's a huge problem. if you have the same old crew standing up and giving these lectures that would go way above people's heads that we have had for the last ten or fifteen years, guess what, nobody is going to hear it. we need people who know who to message these kinds of things in washington. >> david, julie, stick around. we're highlighting the performative bigotry of one republican member of congress. that's next. publican member of . that's next. t the over... or up here trying to hit the under. whew! or, hitting that win with your crew. ohhh! yes, see defense! or way up here with a same game parlay. yaw! betmgm's got your back. get your welcome offer. and play with the sportsbook born in vegas. all these seats. really? get up to a $1500 new customer offer all these seats. really? in bonus bets when you sign up now. betmgm. download and bet today.

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so after sarah mcbride made history by becoming the first openly transgender member of congress, how did her soon to be house colleague nancy mace welcome her, you might ask. by introducing a bill to ban transwomen from female bathrooms in the capital. until the past few days, the republican lawmaker has ranted about transmen or women in

bathrooms over 300 times. yes, 300 times on social media. now, if you have been following mace over the years, her behavior isn't just outrageous, it also feels wildly performative. in 2021, the then freshman congresswoman said i strongly support lgbtq rights and equality. no one should be discriminated against. mace would later vote in favor of the respect for marriage act which protects existing same-sex marriages under federal law and was the only house republican to sponsor the serving our lgbtq veterans. but in today's gop, this transparent pivot might be necessary to get ahead, and so far, at least, it appears to be working. lately she has been rewarded with more prime time hits on right wing media outlets. julie and david are back with me. david i'll get your thoughts first on this. it would be one thing if mace and her performative bigotry made her an outlier in the

republican party, but it has broad ranging implications. you've got speaker mike johnson now announcing his support for her bill, saying he will bar transgender women from the capital bathrooms and it reflects, really, the kind of hate that the republican party now has in the open for members of the trans community. >> yeah, and you played, stated the quote she made in 2021 when she came out as the champion of lgbtq rightings. we're three years down the road here. this is not a change in principle. this is a change because quite frankly, it's not a secret on capitol hill, she is an attention addict. she has this need to always be in the middle of things, and whatever, you know, she needs to do it, i guess, she's out marjorie taylor greening marjorie taylor greene this week. she's had trouble retaining

staff. a lot of them leave because they say all she wants to do is get on fox news and get attention. she doesn't care about legislating. and she's picking up on what we saw in the presidential campaign. the amount of ads the trump campaign ran attacking transgender people, as a way of attacking kamala harris, was obscene. it was one of their biggest ads that they spent the most money on across the nation, and it seems to have worked, you know, seems to have exploited the bigotry and the prejudice and ignorance out there about this community. she spotted an opportunity, and went into that so, forget about the war in ukraine. forget about climate change. forget about the border. forget about education. forget about housing. the big issue is who's in the stall next to her in a bathroom. >> and, julie, it's not right? this has real life consequences. the trevor project, which is a

nonprofit suicide prevention organization saw a 700% increase in calls and messages after trump won. this type of language, this type of rhetoric has serious consequences. >> first of all, i hate to even give oxygen to this because she's clearly running against lindsey graham in the primaries. that's what she's doing, trying to go to the right of him. since we are here to talk about this, i'll say this, who is going to determine in that bathroom whether a person belongs or not. when i walk into a ladies room, are you going to check to make sure that i belong there. practically speaking, what is nancy mace proposing. does she propose that we all pull down our pants and show we belong in the bathroom. does she understand how women's bathrooms work, there are individual stalls, of course she does. she knows exactly what this is, and it's absurd, and it's harmful and it puts people in harm's way because eventually

somebody's going to walk into a bathroom who doesn't look according to whoever else is in the athroom, and that person is going to be harmed. she's not just harming the transcommunity, which is the lowest of the low you can do. this is an incredible vulnerable community. this is so reminiscent of how people used to go after the gay community, we don't want gay people teaching our children. exact same rhetoric and storiment you're story. you're going after an incredible vulnerable community. you're going after women. she claims to be a feminist. i happen to run a large me too organization, and i'm telling you, you are going after women, congresswoman mace by doing this. you are putting women in harm's way who are going to be questioned about whether they belong in the ladies room, and that's insane, and unless nancy mace herself wants to do those

inspections, which i hope she has better things to do. she might actually want to reconsider this kind of position . from a practical perspective, it's putting so many people in harm's way who are road kill to her on her way to take out lindsey graham or get a fox news contract or whatever her plan is. >> david that point is interest, out-magaing something like lindsey graham, going further to the right. that's what she is doing. this is what happens in the modern day republican party. it's wild how the gop has gone all in on this anti-transhate in just a few years. it wasn't that long ago when north carolina's republican governor signed the infamous transgender bill in his state, back fired, cost him his reelection, and this is how you get ahead if you want to be adored in maga world. >> also, her congressional district has changed. the boundaries were rewritten,

and it's a much more conservative district than when she first ran. while she may have an eye on challenging lindsey graham for the senate position in south carolina, she's obviously doing this to secure her own standing within her own congressional district. it's hard to come up with a enough terms to say how hateful this is. she obviously doesn't believe it, and yet she's doing it to put people in harm's way, cause problems, distract, deflect, and it's the game plan that republicans have used for decades now. to use cultural war battles to get people round up, we don't talk about economic matters, foreign policy matters, and you know, this is just, you know, this is it on steroid. >> david corn, julie roginsky, thank you so much. greatly appreciate your insights and inputs this evening. next up, trump's pick for dni

tulsi gabbard, and next hour, danielle moodie, dean, obeidahhah, and a texas edition of st of the week. i wake up. is limu with you in all your dreams? oh, yeah. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. ♪ life has twists and curls. but you define them and make them bounce. tresemme flawless curls defining mousse. 24 hour. hydrating curl definition. style your life the way you want. ♪♪ tresemme, style your way.

. now, tulsi is entitled to her opinions on things like putin, who she has coddled, on

iran, on china, on other threats, but i am very concerned that she is going to allow those rather extreme and unorthodox views to permeate the intel stream that she's sharing with the president. >> that was the former democratic congressman steve israel on this network, sharply criticizing donald trump's pick for the director of national intelligence. she would gain oversight over 18 intelligence agencies, provide national intelligence to the president, to the heads of department within the white house and pentagon officials and oversee coordination between the intelligence communities of foreign governments and ours. so far the response in washington to that potential reality has been utter panic. to understand why, let's start at the very beginning of gabbard's political career as a democratic congresswoman, representing hawaii. when she was first elected in 2012, gabbard, a veteran was a staunch critic of u.s. foreign policy, particularly its

military intervention. she went on to become a surrogate for bernie sanders back in 2016 during that presidential campaign season, and before eventually running for the democratic nomination herself in 2020. she ran on a noninterventionist platform. here's what she said in an interview, as a democratic presidential candidate in 2019. >> the united states needs to get out of the regime change business. the united states needs to stop trying to act as the policemen of the world. unfortunately, there are very few examples of this justified use of military force. i think it's very telling that the last time congress officially declared war was world war ii. >> one justified use of military force, according to gabbard, was military action against terrorists. she told the hawaiian newspaper just a few years prior, quote, when it comes to the war against terrorists, i'm a hawk. when it comes to counter productive wars of regime

change, i'm a dove. as you know, gabbard was not the democratic nominee for president in 2020. after that loss, she doubled down on her views. we heard them regularly once she became a contributor of fox news. she transformed into a maga warrior. she waited to officially join the republican party until this year. gabbard formally endorsed trump for president august and here's how she praised his diplomacy. >> he exercised the courage we expect from our commander in chief in exhausting all measures of diplomacy, having the courage to meet with adversaries, dictators, allies and partners alike in the pursuit of peace. seeing war as a last resort. >> having the courage to meet with dictators. that line highlights gabbard's own gravitational pull toward strong men around the world, including the syrian dictator

accused of killing hundreds of thousands of innocent syrian civilians. in 2015, she publicly called for the u.s. to allow him to remain in power, and two years later, she traveled to syria for a fact finding mission. gabbard challenged u.s. intelligence that assessed and found rm had used intelligence. during her 2020 campaign, she was a favorite among the russian propaganda machine. less than a month into her run, there were at least 20 gabbard stories on three major moscow-based english language web sites that are supportive of the russian government. in 2022, she used her platform to amplify a russian talking point that the u.s. had provoked putin to invade ukraine. gabbard posted this war and suffering could have been avoided if the biden administration/nato had acknowledged russia's legitimate security concerns regarding ukraine become ago member of

nato. and gabbard's ties to narendra modi, and nationalism. she has received support from u.n. chapters of nationalist advocacy organizations who are working to turn india into a hindu nationalist state. these groups, which are part of an ideological web that orbits around a collective have stoked violence against muslims and other religious authorities in india. they have lobbied foreign governments to turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in that country. there's gabbard's unflinching support of the israeli campaign in gaza. she has portrayed hamas as an ally of isis and al qaeda. and has repeatedly made arguments like this one. >> the goal is not about the territory between israel and gaza or palestine. their goal is to establish this global islamist caliphate and destroy anyone who doesn't

adhere to their radical interpretation. >> gabbard said western leaders have failed to defeat this supposed threat because they refuse to acknowledge it must be defeated idealogically and militarily. she has been a vocal critic of those protesting the war in gaza. >> unfortunately what we're seeing on our college campuses are not these protests actually truly calling for peace, understanding the dangers of the situation. they have become puppets of the radical organization that stands die metically opposed to our ideology of free. >> these are not the alliances or values of an american leader with a commitment to democracy. tulsi gag tulsi gabbard's career show her flock to go whoever has amassed the most political power, regardless of what it takes to get and stay there. that is what makes gabbard an incredibly dangerous pick for

america's next director of national intelligence. we'll be right back after a quick break. onal intelligence. we'll be right back after a quick break. have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. most plans include the humana healthy options allowance. a monthly allowance to help pay for eligible groceries, utilities, rent, and over-the-counter items. the healthy options allowance is loaded onto a prepaid card each month. and whatever you don't spend, carries over from each month. plus, your doctor, hospital and pharmacy may already be part of our large humana networks. so, call the number on your screen now, and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. and remember, annual enrollment ends on december 7th. humana. a more human way to healthcare.

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>> that was democratic congressman, lloyd doggett speaking out against a bill pagszed passed by the house that would give the trump administration broad powers to kill nonprofit organizations. calling tax penalties on american hostages act allows the treasury department to target and investigate organizations they deem terrorists supporting without needing to provide the evidence behind that designation. now, it is already a federal criminal offense for nonprofits or anyone else in this country to support terrorist groups. so a bill like this could be at best unnecessary, and at worst, devastating for rightings groups. groups. a group of 300 s sent a letter that said, quote, the executive branch could use this authority to target its political opponents and stifle dissent. joining me now, someone working to stop this, senior policy

counsel at the aclu's national political advocacy division. great to have you on the show. there was a previous bill with this nonprofit provision, touted by republican supporters as a way to crack down on pro-palestinian supporters that they claimed were exploiting tax laws, but as the aclu and other organizations note in the letter to congress this week, the potential for abuse under this law is broad. how are you working to prevent this bill from advancing and explain to us why you think it can be dangerously used? >> yeah, so as a national matter, i mean, it provides the treasury secretary with a lot of to strip nonprofits of their tax exempt status without having to -- without any kind of necessarily having to show the evidence and with an appeals process that's straight to the secretary of treasury secretary, and it doesn't -- you can strip them as

nonprofit before you go before a neutral decision maker, and, you know, we work really hard as much as we could to try to make sure we whipped up as much opposition in the house, and a number of members shifted their vote even from last and it's critical to keep that opposition. >> nonprofits are usually cash strapped, you know, their tax exemption status is critical for their work. and according to this, you know, if they are accused of wrong doing, they would have 90 days, i believe, to prove that they aren't supporting terrorist organizations. if they cannot, their tax exemption status would be stripped. would these nonprofit organizationings organizations even have the means to fend off these legal battles? >> that's definitely a concern. the stigma designated terrorist-supporting organization, so it's not just the crippling legal fees but, you know, it's the reputational loss that comes with all of that, and you know, the 90 days

is not a real -- they call it cure process, it's not a cure process. you don't necessarily have all the evidence they use against you. they won't give you exculpatory evidence, necessarily, and it's entirely at the judgment of the secretary of the treasury. there's an appeals process after the fact but at that point the damage is already done. >> we've seen this play book around the world, and we've seen the devastating impact that laws like this have created, nicaragua, for example, had a similar bill. didn't only impact speech, it limited the ability of aide workers to operate in that country. over the past year we've seen israel easter ron desantis -- israel's pausing their funding and impacting lives on the ground in the gaza strip. these accusations really impact people who are already extremely vulnerable. >> yeah, i mean, it's absolutely -- that's absolutely true, and it's also true that this is a common way that

accusing of terrorism, we have seen it around the world, can often be used for political reasons, including silencing critics, trying to silence civil society, and you could see the same thing here. >> you know whrks en you look a other groups, climate justice groups, they could be targeted if their objectives of what they're working for do not align with the policy of the incoming administration. you have 19 states significantly enhancing penalties for protesters challenging pipelines and quote, other critical infrastructure. if this bill were to pass, would there be any protection left for dissent and activists, not just simply the organizations? >> yeah, i mean, look, i think that of course we would -- if this bill became law, we would do everything to fight it, and make sure the constitution and everything is upheld. but, you know, i think one of the things you saw was a really

broad-based coalition, whether it was environmental, labor, reproductive rights groups because, you know, all of these groups could be under threat, you know, of the trump administration, and you know, that's why you could see -- you saw just a broad opposition to try to everything to become law. >> best of luck to you. obviously it doesn't have a chance in this administration but certainly if trump, i mean, once he does get into office, it could be a high priority issue for him and other republicans. so we certainly appreciate your vigilant on it. kia, really appreciate you joining us this evening. thank you. >> thank you. a new hour of ayman starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo!

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on this new hour of ayman, and enraging theme has emerged with trump's cabinet picks. is he assembling a revenge tour against the #metoo movement. and how did rfk junior go from comparing trump to hitler to having a seat on his cabinet? and public schools financial incident to use faith-based curriculum. i'm ayman mohyeldin , let's do it. we are not going back. that was a mainstay of vice president kamala harris