and applied and practiced by people over history and do a better job of it sometimes. some that's really all that i'm calling for here.fo it's not an amendment to the constitution, because that's a practical, almost a near impossibility, but rather, if we are doing what we do, as lawyers, as scholars, as members of the public, the first amendment belongs to us.en and it belongs to the way that we, as a people want to interpret it. let's do a better job. >> this is just the beginning of a very important conversation. i really recommend people read this ombook, because it really does help ecus understand this.s you and i are going to have a longer conversation at the strand on monday, on broadway in new york. if anybody is in new york and wants to icome to this thing, look toit up and i'll post it o my social media. thank you for this great conversation. mary ann franks is legislative

and policy tech director at the cyber rights initiative and author of multiple books , including her latest, "fearless speech." straight ahead, it's only been two and a half weeks since the aelection, it feels like t and a tihalf years. but there is something we can learn from all of this, particularly the hot and fast flameout of matt gaetz. i'll speak to former trump administration adviser olivia troye who knows a thing or two about standing up to power. also, doris kearns goodwin will join us to discuss how history can give us hope on another hour of "velshi," which begins right now. good morning! sunday, november the 24th. 57 days until donald trump's l inauguration. and his administration is taking shape. as of titoday, trump has named l 15 heads of executive departments and many other top administration posts for the start of his second term, including ecten announcements tt were made cljust in the past tw

days. he chose anti-vaxers, skeptics of science, a fossil fuel executive, other allies of the oil and gas industry, people with little-to-no experience leading large organizations, people with ties to neo-nazi and christian nationalist groups and ideologies, and a number of people who want to implement aggressive de-regulation plans. all of that could spell trouble and result in lasting damage to public health, to the climate, to the environment, to national security, onto foreign policy, d to the basic functioning of our federal government. there's a whole lot at stake, and it would be ive to think that trump might be more constrained this time around, but we've also just witnessed the first defeat of trump 2.0. the first successful push back ulagainst his rmer a congressma matt gaetz was forced to withdraw his name from the position of attorney general. mattis stepped back after details continued to be brought out about the sexual assault allegations he faced. he's one of the least-liked

people on capitol hill. not only president-elect j.d. vance could help him rehabilitate his reputation enough. setting a ing ting a side the sithat matt gaetz was grossly unqualified for the position in the first place. shortly after gaetz and vance spent a full day meeting with senators on capitol hill to gauge gaetz's chance of becoming confirmed, gaetz dropped out.d, it was reported that there were at least five republican senators who fwere firmly oppod to his bid for attorney general, mitch mcconnell, lisa murkowski, and john curtis. but nbc news also added that at least 20 and as many as 30 republicans senators were uncomfortable with the prospect of having to vote to confirm gates for the role. this suggests that there are at least some safeguards in place that could be deployed against presidential overreach.ga in this case, the senate acted as a bulwark. it took its constitutional responsibility of advice and

consent seriously. and it prevented an unserious and unqualified candidate from being formally nominated. in 57 days, donald trump will regain the most powerful office in the world. he will undoubtedly wield his influence more doforcefully onc he's back in the white house. his party will also control both the house lland the senate for least the next two years. but it's not the overwhelming mandate that they would like you to believe. there are majorities in both chambers of commerce are narrow and oprecarious, and we know h dysfunctional they can be as a b caucus. and we know something else. donald trump has certainly learned from his first term in office and is stepping into the second term with an eye towardsy removing every guardrail sthood in the ngway of his lawless impulses before. but we've also learned other lessons from trump's first term. we learn that pressure sometimes works and that minds sometimes can be changed. that ordinary americans can their voices and whistle-blowers can shine light in the shadows. we learned that there are quiet, capable, career government employees and military personnel who can muster great bravery in order to erspeak out and push

back. on november 5th, we learned that the trump era of american politics is not over. that the work to win back democracy from the brink is not done. so now s it's time to figure ou what that work looks like.wo joining me now is olivia troye. she served as a senior adviser to then vice president mike pence. she's a national it substack by courier newsroom.r she's also someone who has tried to fight both inside and outside government for the preservation of democracy. olivia, good to see you. you are one of these people who had the moral clarity and the arcourage to speak up when you deemed it necessary. in your latest substack post, you wrote it as a letter to somebody joining the trump administration. quote, now i know you're probably super maga right now, you're all in on america first and maybe even project 250. p and you believe donald trump and his inner circle are just the team for the job. i hate to burst your bubble, but i would be willing to bet serious bank that you'll bear witness to something that

changes your mind. because if you love america, your patriotism will instinctively kick in at some point and you'll see trump for who and what he truly is. and then you'll be left with a quandary, end quote. tell us about that quandary and how this incoming official or maybe somebody who's already in the government should navigate it. >> well, i think the ndary is navigating your true ethics, your ngintegrity, and your mora. and at what point you have to have your red lines and decide that a red line is not the one you're going to cross. and i think my letter was just very heartfelt, having been there and lived it and seen a lot of my colleagues get to that moment. and my letter was also to tell them that when that moment comes, it is important to take a stand. and it is important to be that guardrail. because it matters for the rest of the country. it matters for america. and that there will be people there that will have your backs and they'll make you feel like you're very alone and they'll try to bully you and intimidate you, but i think we need to

remind everyone that, yes, we are here, as americans, and we will be there as a support system to support them and get them through it. >> tell me what that looks liket specifically. in ooyour life, it means very specific things, because you've spoken to people very specifically about tyour experience about being made to feel cealone, about being lo threatened, about continuing to face threats.nt what do we have as a responsibility, as media, as these anpeople who are going toe brave and courageous that we will have your back? what does that look like? >> i think it's a mix of things. a lot of it is, how do you navigate these threats? i've certainly been here as an adviser to others. i'm still getting calls today about what ttthey're seeing on social media and what is real, what isn't? a and i think it's important to really understand how law enforcement plays into this role, and also the legal system providing protection via a network of attorneys and lawyers. and also, the media. fact checking and also having these voices on and talking about what they're seeing, what

hethey're reflecting on, why it important that they took a stand. and also, just being there for each other, and being a support network. and i say this as someone who faced the threats, and it was ugly very atearly on, i got attacked from both sides of the house. i got attacked from the trump team, who called me a traitor. i got attacked by republicans who said i was a traitor to my own party. but i also got attacked by the left, who judge med for having worked there to begin with. and so i think we need to build these permission structures, which is something we've been doing the past couple of years to be there in partnership with e each other, i'm going to give you goa home and space to tell us what we're up against. >> you bring up an interesting point.es fealty to the constitution, fealty to your e country, fealt to honest and doing the right ththing is not actually ideological. if someone comes forward and stops some bad action from taking place in the government.a the fact that they were a

democrat or a liberal is not relevant in in that moment. liz cheney is on the side that we all are right now. the side of democracy. later on, we can fight about minimum wage and universal health care and all of that stuff, and we should in a democracy. the point you're making and that you demonstrate, if it's you or liz cheney or alexander vindman, that's enough to be on my team. >> yes, and for me, it was moral decision, because it was especially during the pandemic, i inwas watching a health crisi that was rising and american's lives were being put in grave risk and ngat danger. i think we'll face that again given some of the trump picks that are going to be in charge of our health system and the lt cdc. i'm seeing some picks being placed very specifically there. and for me, it was also drawing the line when people have the leright to peacefully protest a hear their voices heard. but when i heard that there was potential for military to be used against american.

it should not matter politically in terms of where you are. it should matter that you've got to do the best thing ttfor all us in our country. that's how we're going to navigate the next four years under donald trump. and he will test us. he will test the system. we know this. and it's going to be that much worse. because at least i was sitting in the room at the table with people who actually did put thel constitution, a lot of the time, over their own personal beliefs. over their personal gratitude and benefit and power to really take the stand and hold the line. those people, for the most part, are not going to be the people sitting in the room this time and it's going to be tthe restf the system that will have to sy hold. >> you worked in covid response during the end of your career, but worked in anti-terrorism stuff and in national security. a lot of erthis may fall to peoe who can't go public. they might be fbi agents. they might be cia agents, they might be employees of the department of justice or the cia. that's actually a icworry. particularly with tulsi gabbard as the nominee. because she entrusts views that are in line with our adversaries

and can do a great deal of damage. the will have more information than literally any other american except the president to highly eclassified, top-secret information that could compromise lives and american national security. >> yes, and certainly, this is something that i think is going nkto test the national security communities. how do you navigate with something at the very top and at the helm, that could potentially put your own assets, your own personnel, and your own integrity of the system of how this national security community works on the line. and potentially put them in harm's way of foreign adversary, if they're an ally to that foreign adversary. and i had to leave my career to come forward. l i was a career national security person who was serving as an intelligence officer in the white house for mike pence. i was therdo my leave my job at dhs. you don't talk to the media. you don't come forward publicly. there will be these voices in the background. they're e the ones that will be called the deep state.

they're ones that will be attacked when they tell the truth at the table and take a stand. i saw hemany leaders, decorated admirals, people that had mentored me throughout my entire career take the fall for the rest of the community in these moments. and i think it's going to come to true leadership along the ranks outside of the main leader in power to protect the community and really take a stand and be the bulwark in that conversation. >> we'll count on those heroes and osthose brave people, your bravery, which is not a past hi thing, it will become very relevant llnow as people turn t you and say, what do i do? i want to remind people, you are one of those people who took action that was to the detriment of your life and career. and we honor you for that. olivia troye is a hero, a former senior adviser to vice president mike pence. thanks for being with us. coming up, clean energy rules and the cparis climate agreement are all potentially on the emchopping block when donal trump takes office again e in in january. i'll speak with washington state

governor jay inslee who's been called the greatest governor in america about what state and local officials are doing to continue the fight against climate change into the next sttrump era.ne and america has found the light haafter its darkest days, esand if that past is prologue,e can do it again. take t from the pulitzer prize winning historian is kearns goodwin who was some lessons for those about what's to come. isgor those about what's to come have you compared your medicare plan recently? with ehealth, you can compare medicare plans side by side for free. so we invited people to give ehealth a try and discover how easy it can be to find your medicare match. this is pretty amazing. i can go on a vacation with this money.

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officials say it killed at least 20 people and 66 were wounded. this is an israeli strike yesterday morning in the center of beirut. it destroyed an eight-story building. attacks in the heart of the capital were relatively rare, by the way, until recently. this is the fourth such strike in beirut within a week. the three israeli officials tell "the new york times" that the strike was an attempt to kill a top hezbollah commander. however, lebanese and hezbollah officials say the group wasn't operating there. also this morning, israel issued new evacuation orders for five villages in southern lebanon. that's an area where israel continues operations both on the air -- in the air and on the ground. and all of this comes as a u.s.-led cease-fire deal continues to show some signs of promise, however, as is always the case, in this part of the world, notable sticking points remain. two western diplomats told the ap yesterday that the latest version of the deal calls for a two-month cease-fire, the withdrawal of israeli forces from lebanon, and the withdrawal of hezbollah to about 20 miles north of the border.

lebanese and u.n. forces, lebanese -- not hezbollah, lebanese government and u.n. forces would then operate in that carrier. think of it as a buffer zone. several sticking points remain, including which countries would be part of that u.n. force. israel wants a guarantee that if hezbollah were to violate the deal, israel would be able to resume air strikes immediately. lebanese and hezbollah officials say that part is a non-starter. both israel and hezbollah say they will continue fighting while the negotiations are ongoing. joining me now from jerusalem is nbc news foreign correspondent, hala gorani. good to see you, my friend. there's a lot going on in israel, this potential deal with hezbollah, the ongoing hostage situation and the war in gaza, the international arrest warrant for benjamin netanyahu. but i want to put that aside for a second. there's a policy change in the occupied west bank right next door to where you are. what can you tell us about that and how this fits into what's

likely to happen, particularly with trump's new administration selections? >> reporter: yes, hi, ali. we're coming to you from jerusalem. there is a pretty significant storm here with rain and wind and some people who have spoken to nbc out of the gaza strip just to give you a bit of context on the region, are saying that their tents are getting blown away and that their few belongings are getting soaked. you mentioned that policy change in the west bank. what you're talking about here is the end, according to the israeli defense minister, of administrative detentions for israeli settlers on occupied territory. now, that is a major policy change. in practice, however, though, it's unlikely to signify a big change for palestinians on the ground. because, really, what palestinians have complained about, not just since october 7th, but for decades now, is that israeli settlers who are given protection by the idf, they say, are very rarely

subjected to any criminal prosecution when they are used of violent acts against palestinian villagers, when they are accused of encroaching on palestinian land and on establishing settlements in occupied territory. so really in practice, ali, the question is going to be, will this make a big difference on the ground? and the answer is, probably not. and these settlers, with the prospect of donald trump taking office in january, these settler groups. a few emboldened, even more emboldened, because the settlement activity has increased since october 7th, and are hoping that this will give impetus to their plans to straight-out annex parts of the west bank and really, for those settlements to become part of israel, in the same way, for example, that israel annexed the golan heights following the war in 1970. >> thank you for your reporting on this. we appreciate it. nbc's international

correspondent hala gorani is reporting from jerusalem. coming up, i'll speak to the man who literally wrote the book on america's clean energy economy, washington governor jay inslee standing by. onomy, washir ja inslee standing by

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so it stops cavities before they start... crest. all right. if you or your kids or your grandkids get overwhelmed or intimidated by the threat of climate change, i get it, because so do i. it is an existential challenge, and it can be helpful to seek out positive and motivating stories, in addition to the scary ones -- there are lots of scary ones. so maybe that is one of those hopeful stories. when donald trump announced in 2017 that he was withdrawing the united states from the paris climate agreement, other american leaders stepped up, refusing to concede america's commitment to fighting for the health of the planet. mayors, governors, and private companies banded together to help keep america in the fight

toward a sustainable future, with or without federal leadership on climate issues. the governors of california, new york, and washington launched the u.s. climate alliance, a state-led coalition to combat climate change. climate alliance now represents 24 state covering 55% of the population and nearly 60% of the united states' economic power. about 350 mayors formed the climate mayors coalition, committing tloek initiatives to promote sustainable energy projects, and do what thedo wha to implement environmental protection rules and climate resilience projects. in an alliance of nearly 3,000 u.s. companies, more than 350 local governments, 13 tribal nations, and a long list of other groups formed the america is all in climate coalition. since then, state and local governments have emerged as leaders in america's climate change resistance movement. in california, in 2017, then governor jerry brown advanced a

relatively aggressive climate plan, pledging that california would achieve 100% clean energy by 2045. new york passed the climate leader and protection act in 2019, which mandates a net zero carbon economy by 2050. washington state passed its own set of ambitious climate goals, such as reducing greenhouse gas emissions by 95%, and innovating a robust cap and invest program, which washington voters just elected to maintain. donald trump's second term promises more challenges, more setbacks, more fossil fuel-friendly initiatives. his return to power is a major blow to climate efforts, but those dedicated to climate action understand that their work is simply not done. this month, these state-led coalitions attended the u.s. climate -- the u.n.'s climate conference, called cop-29 in azerbaijan, reaffirming their commitment to the paris agreement, despite the impending backpedaling that is almost assured in a second trump term. this is not to downplay the

gravity of the climate crisis we face. i will not do that. and i need not remind people watching this show that the global community, including the united states, is not doing nearly enough to effectively mitigate the most severe impacts of climate change, even if we achieve the goals that we have set. and right now, globally, we're not remotely on track to achieving those goals. but the point is, climate leadership in the united states can and will continue, even if our federal leadership tries to drag us backward, which they will. after trump was re-elected earlier this month, those groups of state and local climate coalitions reaffirmed their commitment to climate project with this joint statement. quote, america's climate-leading states, cities, tribal nations, businesses, and institutions will not waver in our commitment to confronting the climate crisis, protecting our progress, and relentlessly pressing forward. no matter what, we'll fight for the future that americans demand and deserve where our communities, our health, our

environment, and our economy all thrive. we will not turn back, end quote. joining me now is the governor of washington state, jay inslee. he's long been one of america's foremost leaders in climate policy and initiative. he was a founding member of the u.s. climate alliance back in 2017. and you are a guy i turn to when i need a little less doom and gloom about climate. i do not wish to -- ke i said, i'm not pollyannish about this. i get this is a very, very serious issue. but tell me what can and is being done to try to mitigate what we're about to see from our federal government. >> look, in a dark moment, looking for light is a go ahead thing. i'm glad you're doing that. we have a really good reason to be excited and be alive right now. there's a fundamental message that people need to understand and that is that donald trump cannot stop us. he cannot stop the state of washington from having a climate commitment act that puts a cap

on climate. he can't stop us. he can't stop us from having a low-carbon fuel standard, which gets washingtonians less-polluting fuel. he cannot stop us from having people have really good ways to get free bus rides and electric ferries. this is an important moment to understand the genius of the people who set up this country. we are the united states, emphasis, states, capital "s," in our ability to move the needle forward. and as you've indicated, we represent the u.s. climate alliance. this is not our first rodeo with trump. we continue to make progress in his first term. and we'll continue to make progress in his second. we have 24 states that represents over half of the whole u.s. economy. so, that was a good message in azerbaijan, that i went to last week. people needed to hear it, to give a little boost, some confidence. our ambition should be undiminished, and our movement should be unconquered and that's how i feel about it right now.

>> the other piece of hope is that the trump administration's promise to drill, baby, drill and roll back these regulations is out of sync with both american public opinion and out of sync with the reality. here in the northeast, you are very, very familiar with brush fires and forest fires. we are not in the northeast to that degree. and you've seen the hundreds of brush fires, including in this city, in new york city, we've had fires, until earlier this week. it's out of sync with the reality of what's actually going on in the world. i take these two things as positives. that this administration, at some point, may come to some realization that you're in the wrong place, and you're going in the wrong direction. >> well, i think that he's going to get some lessons, first off. i think the inflation reduction act will largely remain in tact. republicans, congressmen will not want to give up thousands of jobs in their district. and yes, the public is with us on this. we tested this. we had a budge of millionaires, a hedge fund guy try to repeal our climate commitment act.

it's the most ambitious climate law in the united states. they spent several million dollars trying ore peel it. it went to the ballot box. we defeated them not just a little bit, we defeated them 62-38. it wasavenue. we buried them, because people really want to see action, both on creating clean jobs, and on fighting everything they're now experiencing. and you know, like gretzky said, you want to skate where the puck is going to be, and where the puck is going to be is increasing appetite, increasing commitment, and increasing confidence of americans to be able to tame this beast and build a clean energy economy. the reason is, they're seeing more and more of these gedies every day. you used to think it's just california fires or washington fires, now it's new york and new jersey, it's 6 feet of mud in valencia, spain, asheville, north carolina, under floods. as these things continue to hit our neighborhoods, more and more people are going to demand that their governments move forward. now, the good news is, and i

hope this share with people, you don't have to wait for washington, d.c. wherever you are today, having coffee this morning, you can get in on the fight, in your local community. go help a legislature get elected. help your county buy evs and electric buses. this is a message of empowerment that we have right now. we should not be hobbled by trump's presence. we should be spurred by it. so i'm excited for the next several years of progress, in the communities where we live. >> governor, about one month ago, right before the election, as i was traveling the country to try to talk to people. i was in arizona. and what i've learned is that you are not just a friend of our show and a friend of the climate, but you're a bit of an artist. can i show the audience, you sketched a picture of me with my carhart jacket and my hat with a cactus behind me in arizona and that put a smile on my face. thank you for that. >> well, i didn't catch your -- i didn't capture your real charm, but this is a team

effort. by the way win heard that your stepdaughter, erica, was doorbelling in pennsylvania last election. >> yes. >> this is something else we've got going for us. young people who are going to demand climate action. >> that's right. >> thanks for your leadership, ali. >> thanks for your leadership, governor. good to see you. the democratic governor, jay inslee of washington state. he, of course, will not be the governor in a little while, but that means he'll have more time to be on our show and we'll have more conversations about how to fix this crisis. thank you, governor. staid, you hear the word unprecedented a lot in the trump era, but while we cannot wish ourselves into more normal times, we can look to history for comfort to other times when this country has been tested and made it out on the other side. after the break, i'll be joined by the pulitzer prize winner and best-selling author, doris kearns goodwin. best-selling auts kearns goodwin

. on february 24th, 2022, russia invaded ukraine. fast forward to today, day 1005 and the war continues to escalate. just last week, president biden reversed a long-standing policy allowing ukraine to use u.s.-provided long-range missiles inside russia, and since then, moscow has launched a new nuclear-capable hypersonic missile at ukraine, as a warning to the u.s. and its western allies. so, now, as donald trump prepares for a second term, many are wondering what impact his forthcoming presidency will have

on the war. richard engel has this report. >> the war in ukraine escalating, with the ukrainian military taking its fight deeper into russia and russian president vladimir putin launching a new type of high-speed ballistic missile at ukraine. there are no means to counteract such weapons today, putin said, claiming the nuclear-capable missile flies at ten times the speed of sound. russia said it targeted a munitions factor near the city of dnipro. there were no casualties. putin called it a successful test. it is a warning from president putin and a response to president biden, who in his administration's 11th hour, and after months of lobbying from ukraine, authorized the ukrainian military to fire american missiles deeper into russia, for the first time since putin invaded two and a half years ago. to date, the united states has sent more than $175 billion

worth of aid to ukraine, far outpacing any other nation. ♪ and i won't forget ♪ >> reporter: the war has been a key campaign issue for president-elect donald trump, who promised to end the conflict in a day. >> if i'm president, i will have that war settled in one day. 24 hours. >> reporter: ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy this month admitted the war will likely end sooner under trump. and that expectation is changing the battlefield. putin, zelenskyy, and biden are all escalating to be in the strongest position possible before trump takes office. >> both sides know that a negotiation is coming and both sides want the strongest possible negotiating position when that deal gets cut. >> and if these are the late rounds of his long fight, they are certainly bloody. ukrainian american soldier, miro popovich has been fighting on or

near the front lines since the war began. >> we can't surrender. we can't surrender territories or people, because our existence is on the line once again. >> reporter: so if ukraine is heading to an end game, what might it look like? >> the end game very likely will be what you see is what you get. meaning the current battle lines will probably end up being the division. >> reporter: over the last 1,000 days, russia has captured roughly 20% of ukraine's territory, from the port city of mariupol to the coal-mining heartland of the donbas. russia aims to keep most or all of it to create a corridor to the crimian peninsula, which putin seized a decade ago. but ukrainians don't believe that putin has given up on his goal to take all of ukraine, and suspect he'll bide his time, rearm, and eventually invade again, regardless of any deal trump may broker.

>> and that was richard engel reporting from ukraine. coming up, as reprepare for a second trump term, we'll turn to history for lessons on overcoming divisive and dangerous times. the pulitzer prize winner and best-selling author doris kearns goodwin joins me next. best-selling author doris kearns goodwin joins me next. guaranteed. schedule your free gutter inspection now and save up to 35% with leaffilter's black friday deals. no matter what kind of teeth you gotta brush, oral-b electric cleans better with one simple touch. oral-b's dentist inspired round brush head hugs em,

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unprecedented. with the current state of american politics, that word seems almost overused. but no matter the situation, history shows us that when america is in crisis, it has always prevailed. it's come out stronger on the other side. sometimes it takes a little time to get there, but even in the face of a bloody and decisive civil war, unity was eventually restored. more than 620,000 soldiers on both sides of the conflict along with an unknown number of civilians died in the civil war. it was a country divided in two over america's original sin, slavery.

but in the end, under the leadership of president abraham lincoln, the union prevailed. on march 4th, 41 days before his assassination, president lincoln stood in front of the capitol, attempting to heal a wounded nation in his second inaugural address saying, quote, with malice towards none and charity for all, with firmness in the right as god gives to us see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in. to bind up the nation's wounds, to take care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and for his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves with all nations, end quote. today, we have an incoming president who has malice for many, promising retribution against his perceived enemies and those with whom he disagrees. he's stacking his cabinet with some whose only qualification for the job is fealty to him and a passion for vengeance. president-elect donald trump's

strategy with his incoming administration stands in stark contrast to a cabinet that lincoln put together, when abraham lincoln was elected president the first time, he did something that surprised many. in a country filled with disunity, he assembled what historian is kearns goodwin calls a team of rivals. lincoln appointed three men that he ran against to his cabinet. and the bold action may have helpeded lincoln lead the country through some of its darkest days. after a quick break, i'll joined by the great doris kearns goodwin, the pulitzer prize-winning presidential historian to delve through how history might, in fact, inform our present. form our present. a longer and happier life. the farmer's dog makes weight management easy with fresh food pre-portioned for your dog's needs. it's an idea whose time has come. ♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply

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all right. we're all about looking for paths forward right now, so to discuss how history can help us chart a path forward, aisle joined now by doris kearns goodwin, author of many books, including her two latest, "an unfinished love story: a personal history of the 1960s" and "the leadership journey: how four kids became president." also the book we just mentioned, which i'm assuming you've all read it, but if you haven't, good time to read it, "team of rivals." doris, great to have you on the show. thanks for being with us. >> i'm so glad to be with you, ali. >> here's the thing, lots of

people i'm talking to in the last two and a half weeks -- here's the thing, no one's sitting and telling me, what i really want now is unity, how disunited we are. in fact, president lincoln in his inaugural address says, unanimity is impossible. he goes on to say that the only way pardon to fix divisions in the country is to bring people with different views together. that's different, right, than unanimity. it means, we are different. that's pluralism, really, what you're talking about. >> you are absolutely right. i mean, what was so extraordinary about what lincoln did, it wasn't just that he was bringing in his three rivals, each one was better educated, more celebrated, more well known in the country peach one thought he should be president instead of cloin. but he realized he needed those difference of views. those who thought the union should only be restored. never deal we mans emancipation

faction in the middle. but they said, you're going to be a figurehead. you can donate that. they're much more powerful than you. he said, no, the country is in peril. these are the strongest, most able people in the country, i need them by my side. i often tease that my old friend lyndon johnson would have put this concept in more noble language. he liked to say, it's better to have your enemies inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in. but every day, he could absorb where the feelings were in the north, and figure out the timing, when was the right time for emancipation? because he treated these cabinet members so well and listened to them for so long, even though some disagreed, they never made their disagreement public. they presented a united front. it was not unanimity, but bringing diverse views and figuring out how to deal with them. that's what we need today. >> and we have seen this in administrations since. the idea that there's somebody from the other party who comes into some particular position in the administration. is that generally, that concept

generally dead? or is this specific to the way donald trump is looking at the world? because he invokes lincoln a lot. he talks about how he may be the best president since lincoln. although he made some weird reference to perhaps lincoln should have just settled the civil war. is the concept gone? should we look at this as a specific donald trump thing that he's sort of taken up by vengeance and retribution? or are we just -- are those times behind us? >> well, i think it's much harder in some ways, because of the way we deal with the news today. you know, in lincoln's day, even though those cabinet members had a lot of fiery arguments against one another, it was mostly confined to their journals and diaries. we know about it after the fact. today it would be spread all over the news. if lincoln would have come back today, what he would say to mr. trump is don't let retribution be the thing you're going to do.

other people were wishing he would go against his enemies at the end of the war, of course. they'd committed treason. he said, they should prosecute those enemies, he said, many of the radicals said. you should hang them. he said, i want no hangings, i want no more hate. we've had too much of that. and that's, as you said, with malice towards none and charity toward all. if the retribution goes now and if the enemies get somehow prosecuted, then that's where our attention will go. and that will lose the whole forward possibility of bringing the country to some sort of healing to process. >> as an historian, if we are not going to get from donald trump what we saw from abraham lincoln, at least his first term, what else can we do about that that? can society decide it is pluralistic and that we will engage in dialogue with those whose opinions we don't share in pursuit of democracy without that being something that the president leads us toward? >> you know, i think what we have to remember, ali, is that we are citizens, still.

and that's the greatest power that we have. and when i look at the history of the country, every important change we've gone through has come from the ground up. it doesn't really come from the top down. when lincoln was called a liberator, after the emancipation t call me that. it was the anti-slavery movement and the union soldiers that did it all. at the turn of the 20th century, when everything was in great turmoil because of industrial revolution, shaking up the and lots of problems in the society, city people hating people in the country, and big countries swallowing up small companies, what happened really was even before teddy roosevelt got in, there was a progressive movement in the cities and states, settlement houses, social, gospel, and religion. then the women's movement, the suffragette movement was absolutely essential to the 1960s. there was discipline, there was courage, there was bravery. the government is us. and that's what we have to remember. lincoln said, public sentiment

was more important than supreme court laws, more important than any congressional decision, because when a settled feeling comes across the country, it's not just public opinion, but settled feeling , we have to understand that. the government is us. it's not something out there. >> as you know, we love you on the show. we love historians on the show. and the last few weeks in particular, we've had a lot of them, largely because when the rest of us have our hair on fire, historians like you can look back and say, generally speaking, we're 1.5 to 2 steps forward. i would like your honest opinion about where we are right now. is there reason to be hopeful that some of these ills can be corrected? >> it's a very anxious time. there's no question about that. but i think what historians can tell us is that we've lived through even more anxious times. it may seem crazy that i go back and look at the civil war or the

great depression or world war ii and find solace in it, because they were terribly, terribly hard time. but as you said at the start of the show, we got through those times. the civil war payed a ed apaid price, but sin of slavery was ended. and when you look at the great depression, when roosevelt first came in, if your program works, you'll be one of the great presidents, if it fails, you'll be the worst. he said, no, i'll be the last american president. and in the early days of world war ii when hitler spread across western europe, if hitler had succeeded, not only democracy but civilization would have been at an end. but allies won that war. and the people didn't know how it would end. like we don't know now. we're still a people and power as citizens and we can put leaders in place. that's why i love it so much. >> you have to live like you have to keep doing what you're doing. do