would not be allowed back and this would be a mass ethnic cleansing which israel did in 1948 and again in 1967 and again, for people on the israeli right and the government, this would solve part of the problem of gaza, which is the hostile population. you don't know how to manage it. well, then you have a lot fewer people, there. >> do you think that there is -- there was clearly political strain on the netanyahu government about getting those tens of thousands of folks to go back to their homes in northern israel. there have been tons of deployments from idf soldiers, do you think there is political pressure to find some "declaration of an end" in gaza, now that this has been done with hezbollah? >> i don't think there is the same kind of pressure. i think gaza is more manageable, in terms of the stress and deployment it puts on the israeli defense forces, then lebanon was. and again, israel is not really holding territory in gaza, it is basically going in, demolishing stuff, then moving out again. so, you don't need to have that

many troops there. that is why hamas keeps coming back, because you are not holding the territory. so, what it is ultimately achieving, beyond destroying the society, is questionable, but i don't think it is as much of a strain on idf. >> peter, thank you very much. that is "all in" on this tuesday night, "alex wagner tonight" starts right now. good evening, alex. you don't need to have a preview of my show, because i had a really good a block on my own pert >> i know, i'm sorry i went late, but, i will see you in a second. >> it is your block, too. i will see you in a second. so, fox news is not known for asking tough questions of donald trump, but when it comes to trump and his proposed tariffs, well, maria bartiromo, actually kind of went for it.

>> what about the criticism -- and the journal has done this as well -- that if you put something like a 200% tariff on a product, it will only mean higher prices. >> no, no, it is not. it does not mean that. >> it has to be passing on, somehow. >> no, it doesn't mean -- it doesn't mean what? for years now, trump has been campaigning on a promise he would enact massive tariffs as part of his america first economic agenda, but he has also been trying to get away with pretending that those tariffs would somehow not cost american consumers anything. >> a tariff is a tax on a foreign country, that is the way it is, whether they like it or not. a lot of people like to say "it is a tax on us." no, no. it is a tax on a foreign country. we are going to be a tariff nation. it is not going to be a cost to you, it will be a cost to another country. >> that line might have worked on the campaign trail, but it is now time for trump to put his money -- or, more accurately, america's money -- where his mouth is. yesterday, trump got specific about those promised tariffs. he threatened that on day one of his second term, he would

enact a 25% tariff on all goods from canada and mexico, and add an additional 10% tariff on all goods from china. and you might remember that tariffs were an essential part of trump's first term. he loves tariffs and trade wars, as he called them, but they did not go well for him. back then, trump put tariffs specifically on all imported washing machines. and just as he is doing today, trump promised that those tariffs on those washing machines would not be paid for by american consumers. but, guess what? they were. despite the fact that the price of washing machines had been declining for years at that point, the year trump's tariff took effect, the price of washing machines in the u.s. surged. an average of $86 per machine. the american consumer very much paid the price. and now, this week, trump is declaring that he wants to take that same concept, and apply it to the vast majority of everything that america imports.

now, most of america's imports come from mexico, and canada, and china, the three countries that trump is threatening to tariff. as an example, for years now, the u.s. has imported more crude oil from canada than it has from the rest of the world, combined. so, for all the trump supporters who claimed one of their biggest issues was how expensive gas got under president biden, well, buckle your seatbelts, folks, because gas may get a lot more expensive. speaking of which, trump's tariffs would likely make your car itself significantly more expensive. one michigan-based auto industry consultant today told the new york times, "the prospect of tariffs is a two alarm fire for the auto industry. there is probably not a single assembly plant in michigan, ohio, illinois, and texas that would not immediately be affected by a 25% tariff." chrysler makes minivans in canada, chevy and ford make pickup trucks in mexico. economists say that all of those vehicles and many others would become significantly more expensive if mr. trump followed

through on his threat. those higher auto prices would have a significant effect on overall inflation, and higher car prices would probably lead to lower sales and layoffs at auto factories. factory layoffs! then, there is the impact of trump's tariffs on the cost of groceries. mexico and canada are two of the biggest importers of fresh fruit and vegetables to the united states. in 2022, mexico supplied 51% of fresh fruit and 69% of fresh vegetables imported to the u.s., while canada supplied 2% of fresh fruit and 20% of fresh vegetables. think about that. a combined 53% of all of our imported fresh fruits, and a combined 89% of all of our imported fresh vegetables -- 89% of all imported vegetables -- that is a lot of vegetables. but, i don't know, maybe you are someone who likes the sound of that. maybe you think the u.s. should

grow more of its fruits and vegetables domestically, and stop importing so much. the problem there is trump's other signature promise could destroy that option, too. according to the department of labor and agriculture, nearly half of the nation's nearly 2 million farmworkers lack legal status. the same is true of the workforce that makes up our domestic, dairy, and meat- packing industries. now, i am no professor of economics. who am i to say that would make american grocery prices skyrocket? luckily for me, writers talked to a food economics and policy supporter, who told reuters that mass remover of farmworkers which shock the food supply chain and drive consumer food prices higher. it is not just grocery bills that will feel the impact of trump's agenda, here. take housing costs. not only does the u.s. get the majority of its imported lumber

from canada, which trump's tariffs would make 25% more expensive, but trump wants to deport the labor force that builds a gigantic portion of america's housing. this weekend, texas' construction industry sounded the alarm about just how devastating trump's promised deportations would be, for the industry's capacity to build. the ceo of the construction giant, marek, told npr, it would devastate our industry, we wouldn't finish our highways, we wouldn't finish our schools. housing would disappear. if they lose half of their labor. tariffs on their own, could devastate our economy. mass deportation on its own, could devastate our economy. and donald trump says he wants to do both, on day one. joining me now, is chris hayes, host of "all in", you may recall him from five minutes ago, and senior adviser to senator bernie sanders, and founder and executive director of more perfect union. guys, great to have you here.

>> good to be here. >> yikes, is what i have to say. i mean, the cascade effect is just staggering, when you talk about the most talked about policies -- there weren't a lot that trump held it on the campaign trail, but messed deportations and tariffs. what is so stunning, chris, you pointed this out on your show, he tried this once before on soybeans and it ended up with subsidies that the american government had to pay farmers, who were the victim of retaliatory tariffs from china. >> it was basically the worst of all worlds, which is we import a ton from china, as we all know, "made in china," it is a clichi, but we also exported a lot of things to them, including american farmers, so they said, okay, we retaliate, they put a tariff on our agricultural exports, tons of soybean, for instance, just laying fallow. then, you basically had this weird situation, where he took

the revenue from the tariffs and used it to cut welfare checks to american farmers to make them whole, but it is like a lose-news. like, okay, you've gotten money from the tariffs, now you're just paying people money to not sell the product that they grew .2 negative is insane. >> it is a terrible -- and the other thing about this is, for all the bluster, it wasn't like this experiment he did with trade war, resulted in some rebalancing of america's trade deficit with china, or some new terms, it was basically -- it was like professional wrestling. >> it is wwe economic policy. >> and it went away. the question here is, is it going to be that again? which in some ways, is the best case scenario, or are they really going to drive the car off the cliff? >> right. living on the precipice, that really is such a fascination of his, because maybe he thinks it connotes strongman vibes, but really, if the goal of these punitive tariffs -- in the case of china, and to some degree, mexico -- is to stop the trafficking of drugs across the border, the reality is that 95% of fentanyl seized by u.s. law

enforcement is discovered in personal vehicles driven across the border by u.s. citizens, that is according to the dhs. and faz, this is -- well, the problem exists, fentanyl is an issue, but this isn't -- this won't even change the root cause of why he wants to impose these tariffs, to begin with. >> right, you are right about the drug problem and we have been dealing with the fact that -- and the biden administration have been, if you look at the facts and statistics of fentanyl moving across the border, it had been effectively starting to curb that. so, there is that. [ laughter ] and in addition, if you are talking about tariffs, one idea i am honed in on, is that you have to fight for american workers. and in his best sense, donald trump is at least trying to advocate and articulate that that is a claim of what he is trying to do with tariffs, that if john deere is going to move plans to mexico to build tractors, if stellantis is going to shut down and case holland is going to move down to mexico, as well, that we are

going to penalize everything that comes back across. what ends up happening, of course, is you don't save those jobs, those jobs still go over, now we have nothing for the american worker. and what the biden administration had been doing, is investing in making the costs of starting these businesses attainable, and investing, from a government perspective, in the communities, so that everything, education, housing, all of it, worked together seamlessly to raise and lift all boats, but what donald trump is proposing is that we basically lose-lose the proposition that chris hayes was just laying out. >> and one of the things i am worse, is best case scenario politically -- one of donald trump's strength as he sees everything as zero-sum and i think a lot of voters see things as zero-sum. we are getting screwed, someone is screwing us, there is some pie and someone is taking a big slice.

donald trump, that is how he views everything, and this kind of rhetoric is extremely useful. so, the best case scenario, like i said, is lots of theatrics. he is going back and forth with claudia, the new president of mexico, and she wrote him a letter today, and not a lot of stuff is happening because the macroeconomic foundation of the country he is inheriting is in very good shape. >> yes! >> and to the extent that he, through ideological commitment, or narcissism, or whatever, goes through with mass deportation and goes through with huge tariffs, it really will make things worse for people. i mean, there is an actual effect. >> and you have to imagine, faz, that there will be some political cost. this is a man who was making $30,000-$99,000 a year. these tariffs, which could raise costs on consumers, by $2500 -- >> gasps! >> sort of articulations of how you are doing, how much you have to pay at the grocery store, whether you can feed your family, whether you can take on a road trip, whether

you can afford the gas to get your job, that would all be affected. i mean, that is, i guess, the insurance policy, here. it would crater trump's support among the very voters who supported him. >> first off, one of the very reasons why he is moving in this direction, tariffs and deportations, is because it is a unique power thwarted to the presidency. some say it is the cheapest and easiest way out. instead of having to negotiate with congress, and figuring out a tax proposal that would penalize corporations who are wrongly offshore in jobs, that would be a hard thing to do. we would get into the tax code and figure out how to best levy a penalty on a corporation that does illegal actions. he is going to go for a tariff which is a blunt force mechanism which he has, which is basically really an awful way to try to address this problem, but i just want to be clear on why he is doing it because he is not going to harder route to build a coalition and actually address this problem through a lot of different dimensions.

you could do immigration policy this way, tax policy, a whole series of actions that you can move through congress if you want to be a leader on this and restructure the american economy to venture to the point that he is trying to raise, penalizing bad actors. that, we can agree on. but, here, the democratic party has been trying to fight on, you name it, stock buybacks, dividends, corporate rates, loopholes in the corporate irs auditing, these are all the things that publicans have been trying to undermine for the last couple years. >> right, and piggybacking on that, chris, the hope is that the talk about mass deportations and tariffs ends up being more rhetorical in nature than anything else. or, the mass deportations are limited in scope, but expanded in bluster, if you will. >> i think he is more likely to really try to deport a ton of people, then stick with a tariff regime that would start to wall street and -- you know what i mean? i just think they get spooked out when the dow goes down. >> well, the farm industry is complaining to trump. they are like, you can't deport

all of our workers. we won't be able to -- the whole system will start to break down if we lose half our labor force. >> i will say this, there are more internal, ideological, and interest group contradictions bound up in this project than i have ever seen in a winning coalition and it is true for any coalition. if you win an election, you have different people with different views in your coalition and you have to -- this has all been subsumed under the cult of personality of trump, but it will not be subsumed forever. farmers, they don't want their workers -- >> agriculture has a big interest in watching these things. >> homebuilders don't want lumber to be more expensive. >> they will lose their builders! >> this is real stuff, and you can't just do a rally and everybody project onto you that you agree with them, when you actually have to start taking actions. >> well, right, and i think, faz, chris raises an important point with the coalition, the deportation think was seen during the campaign as, immigrant rights activists are talking about that.

now that it is on the front doorstep, you have big, the construction industry going, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, those are coalitions that the republican party and donald trump would listen to, they are moneyed interests, they have a lot of power and they have inside interests in washington, d.c. >> you are right, tom hohmann, who will run the deportation effort, he wants to jail people, i think he is suggesting jailing the denver mayor. he is ready to go after everybody and send this very tough out on the sheriff, everybody is getting out. what is going to do, obviously, is crippled the actual economy. and i believe that when you have these kinds of scaring and the fear-based economy that trump wants to have -- you have people just exiting out of the labor force. you have people going home and staying, hiding underground, waiting him out, essentially. that is partly what happened. you don't actually, you know, create a vibrant economy were

other people come in and take these jobs. and you know, that is something we are going to have to wrestle with, it is just a fear-based economy that is filled with enemas, that doesn't even accomplish the goals that he wants, which is americans would come in and take the jobs in springville, ohio, for instance. in his mind, if you just kicked out a bunch of haitians from honda and dole factories, working-class people would come in and take those jobs. that is not actually what would happen. you would just decimate those factories here in america and those workers would go underground. >> fear-based economy filled with enemas. what could go wrong? faz, thank you so much, my friend. chris hayes, thanks for pulling double duty. you get an extra slice of pecan pie. >> it was a great pleasure. >> come by anytime, friend. >> you bet. coming up, the transcript continues. reports that a top trump adviser was shaking down trump's treasury picks for $35 a month. what trump wants to do about that, if anything, coming up next. but first, finally free from his middle leadership role, mitch mcconnell reported he feels liberated and ready to stand up to donald trump, maybe. we will discuss that, next.

black friday football es on prime is back.

touchdown! the raiders. the chiefs. an old school rivalry for a new gameday. i'm here all day! raiders/chiefs. black friday football. only on prime. it's a lot to be a caregiver and a daughter. because you kind of have to take a step back. getting some help would be a great relief. from companions to helpers to caregivers. find all the senior care you need at care.com

my favorite babysitter is annalisa. she's pretty good, she's like my grandma. she says “hola cómo estás” and then we go skateboarding! from babysitters, to nannies, to daycare centers. find all the care you need at care.com

we are not going to have the senate have the legacy of mcconnell to block president trump. it will not happen. matt gaetz has withdrawn his nomination. and look, let's be brutally frank, you can't take this any other way than a mitch mcconnell win. >> despite predicting that nothing would stop donald trump from getting his cabinet picks confirmed, steve bannon has now

conceded that something did. something named mitch mcconnell. today, the new york times reports that senator mcconnell is feeling "liberated" and prepared to defend his chamber, independent from trump. but whether the man who privately mused about impeaching trump before voting to acquit him, and who refused to hold a hearing for president obama's supreme court nominee in an election year, then expedited president trump's pick in an election year, whether that guy is actually the resistance, well, that very much remains to be seen. joining me now is charlie sykes, msnbc contributor and columnist. charlie, thank you for being here. i am very eager to get your assessment of all this. the new york times reports that mcconnell wants to concentrate on preserving the senate's institutional independence, at a time when trump has made clear that he intends to bend the chamber to his will. what you think of mitch mcconnell being this sort of unlikely face of, i guess, we will call it a resistance, of

sorts. >> well, extremely unlikely. i think the core position has to be skepticism because we have been through this before, over, and over, and over again. but, let's play apelike quick game of "what if." what if, in the twilight of his career, mitch mcconnell actually does regret not disqualifying donald trump after january 6th. what if, in his heart of hearts, mitch mcconnell really deeply does recent trump's conduct and his racist slurs against his wife. what if mitch mcconnell actually does think that donald trump's foreign policy is dangerous? and what if, in fact, he is serious -- i think this is where you really draw the line -- that he is serious about protecting the integrity of the institution? because donald trump, from the moment of his election, basically made it clear that he

wanted to bend the senate to his will, as you said. he wanted the senate to surrender its powers of advice and consent. mitch mcconnell, at some point, is going to say, look, the way that this system is set up under the constitution, we are not potted plants. we are going to be jealous of our power, and we are not going to let you rollover. so, the other "what if" that i think we need to keep in mind -- and again, i don't put a lot of stock in this -- but, what if, at this point in his life, mitch mcconnell is all out of bleeps to give. what if he decides, i have nothing to lose, i am not going to be -- i am not simply going to be another spear carrier for donald trump. you put all of those things together, and you have the possibility of someone saying, "i have nothing to lose. i am going to do what i want to do," really, for the first time

in maybe 20 years, in terms of not having responsibility in leadership. so, again, default position, skepticism. but, it is a really interesting question right now. especially going back to your last segment and i just want to underline one thing, what we are learning about the unilateral power of the president, all the things that donald trump will be able to do without congressional approval, the fact that he can unilaterally impose billions of dollars in taxes is extraordinary. i don't think a lot of people fully realize that. the fact that he does have the power to initiate mass deportation, the fact that he can use the department of justice. so, this is a moment at which the senate, in its historic constitutional role, can be a check on donald trump. and there is no love lost between these two men. >> that is for certain. it does beg the question, whether a senate led by republicans with mitch mcconnell as an engine under the water, if not the majority leader, is really going to show some backbone. i mean, i wonder what you make of mcconnell's silence on

trump's most controversial cabinet picks, other than matt gaetz, who is no longer in the running. but, you know, he hasn't said anything about pete hegseth for defense secretary, nothing about tulsi gabbert for director of national intelligence and nothing about robert f. kennedy jr. for hhs. do you read anything into that silence? and i guess, secondarily to that, do you think that the gaetz failure, the flameout of matt gaetz, is giving republicans a sense of renewed faith in their own agency? not that they came out and did anything about matt gaetz, but that trump will relent, in some cases? or, do you think they are more gun shy, as it were, about, you know, killing off one of his nominees, rhetorically speaking, because he has already lost one and donald trump doesn't like to lose? >> well, to be honest, we don't know. but, you have asked exactly the right question. i thought the rejection of matt

gaetz would make it harder for them to reject, you know, number two and number three. in fact, however, they might possibly be getting a sense that they do have agency, that they are not potted plants, that they are able to have real influence in this. and mitch mcconnell's role, i think, will be a lot involved in this behind closed doors, where he will sit with others and give them, i don't know, encouragement, permission, a little bit of cover, to say, hey, why are we here? we are united states senators. are we going to roll over? do we really think america is safer with pete hegseth in charge of the department of defense? do you really want to put the entire western alliance at risk, with tulsi gabbert in that position? do you really want to have one of your first votes to be to confirm a conspiracy theorist, like rfk jr.? and so, there are others that i think might be emboldened by this. i mean, look, obviously, the first early test is going to be

on these confirmations, but there is a real difference between mitch mcconnell and people like mike brown, for example, in the senate, who have been allied with trump, on issues like ukraine. and when it comes down to it, what stance will they take against a donald trump that wants to throw nato under the bus? or, wants to cut off ukraine? that might be a redline for some of them. and again, with 53 votes, you don't need more than a handful. and again, we have seen this over and over, the way they cave in. but, you know, new day, new game, new personality. >> yeah, susan collins, lisa murkowski, thom tillis, mitch mcconnell, i can't believe i am saying those names, a nation turned the lonely eyes to you, charlie sykes. thank you for your time, sir, tonight. >> thank you. still to come this evening, a tale of two trump loyalists. after risking his livelihood trying to help donald trump

retain power in 2020, rudy giuliani says he is so poor right now, he cannot even afford a new york city taxi cab. meanwhile, trump's inner circle is reportedly investigating his longtime adviser, boris epshteyn, for trying to monetize epshteyn's access to trump. we will have more on those stories, coming up, next. nex. ♪far-xi-ga♪ ♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. we shall overcome. we shall overcome. the struggle for equal rights in the united states has been hard fought, but even today, we're still fighting for racial justice, for voting rights, and against hate and extremism. you can help us win the fight and envision a future where all americans can thrive.

by joining the southern poverty law center today. please call now or go online to helpfighthate.org to become a friend of the center. all it takes is just $19 a month, only $0.63 a day. we shall live in peace. we shall live in peace. for more than 50 years we've been defending the rights of people facing discrimination, racism and bigotry in the u.s, and we do it all at no cost to our clients. but the civil rights movement is not just in the past. it's our movement right now. so please call or go to helpfighthate.org and join us. when you use your credit card you'll receive this special fight hate t-shirt to show your standing up for civil rights. the future of our country is in our hands. but it won't come without a fight.

that is why we need your support today. deep in my heart. i do believe we shall overcome someday. with your support, we will overcome hate and injustice. so please call or go online to helpfighthate.org today.

the reality is, i have no cash. it is all tied up. so, right now, if i wanted to

call a taxi cab, i can't do it. i don't have a credit card, i don't have a checking account, i have no place i can go take cash out, except a little bit that i saved, and it's getting down to almost nothing. >> that is donald trump's personal attorney, rudy giuliani, pleading poverty outside a federal courthouse in new york city today. now, the reason mr. giuliani is so strapped for cash is that he has been ordered to pay nearly $150 million to georgia election workers, ruby freeman and shay moss, for defaming them as part of trump's scheme to undermine the results of the 2020 election. you might be thinking to yourself, how is it that rudy giuliani hasn't been able to turn his fortunes around at a time when his number one guy, donald trump, is about to retake the white house? well, self-proclaimed

billionaire donald trump has reportedly not offered to cough up any of his own money to pay rudy's legal bills. trump has apparently done little, if anything, to help his old pal, giuliani, beyond participating in a fundraiser for him last year. in fact, as recently as last month, giuliani claimed that the trump campaign and rnc still owed him $2 million. what giuliani appears to have forgotten is the one invaluable role of being in trump's orbit -- nobody profits off of trump, but trump. unwavering loyalty to trump might earn you an endorsement or a place in his administration, or even a presidential pardon after serving a few months in jail for things you did in trump's service. but, money flows in one and only one direction, towards trump. now, there is another trump world figure learning that lesson. yesterday, multiple news outlets reported that the trump transition is investigating longtime trump aide, boris epshteyn, for trying to

personally profit off of trump's presidency. according to the times, several people who mr. trump trusts had alerted him that mr. epshteyn was seeking money from people looking for cabinet appointments. the trump transition team then conducted a review, which found that boris epshteyn had sought payment from two people, including scott besson, who mr. trump recently picked as his nominee for treasury secretary. scott besson reportedly decided not to pay epshteyn an reported $30,000 fee for the promotion of his candidacy, around mar-a- lago, according to the washington post. in a call set up between the two men, epshteyn said, he was for assessing epshteyn and that bessent should have paid for his unisys service sooner. boris epshteyn denies any wrongdoing here and i should note that the trump team hasn't actually taken any action against boris epshteyn beyond watching the sophistication and apparently leaking into multiple news outlets. for donald trump himself, it

appears his goal is not to distance himself from boris epshteyn, but to remind him who is in charge. as trump told conservative columnist john solomon, "it's a shame, but it happens. but no one working for me in any capacity should be looking to make money." nobody, that is, except the man at the top. in just a second, i will talk to congressman jim hines about the people donald trump is choosing to surround himself with, in a second term, and what he expects from them. that is next. at is next. althce provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people—whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems.

don't take biktarvy if you take dofetilide or rifampin. tell your healthcare provider about all the medicines and supplements you take, if you are pregnant or breastfeeding or have kidney or liver problems. if you have hepatitis b, don't stop taking biktarvy without talking to your healthcare provider. common side effects were diarrhea, nausea, and headache. no matter where life takes you, biktarvy can go with you. talk to your healthcare provider today. we all need fiber for our digestive health, but less than 10% of us get enough each day. good thing metamucil gummies are an easy way to get prebiotic, plant-based fiber. with the same amount of fiber as 2 cups of broccoli. metamucil gummies. the easy way to get your daily fiber. love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight.

she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning. we just wait till we get to the school. so, yeah. right now here in america, millions of kids like victoria and andre live with hunger, and the need to help them has never been greater. when you join your friends, neighbors and me to support no kid hungry, you'll help hungry kids get the food they need. if we want to take care of our children, then we have to feed them. your gift of just $0.63 a day, only $19 a month at helpnokidhungry.org right now will help provide healthy meals and hope. we want our children to grow and thrive and to just not have to worry and face themselves with the struggles that we endure. nobody wants that for their children. like if these programs didn't exist me and aj, we wouldn't probably get lunch at all.

please call or go online right now with your gift of just $19 a month. and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this limited edition t-shirt to show you're part of the team that's helping feed kids and change lives. if you're coming in hungry, there's no way you can listen to me teach, do this activity, work with this group. so starting their day with breakfast and ending their day with this big, beautiful snack is pretty incredible. whether kids are learning at school or at home, your support will ensure they get the healthy meals they need to thrive. because when you help feed kids, you feed their hopes, their dreams, and futures. kids need you now more than ever. so please call this number right now to join me in helping hungry kids or go online to helpnokidhungry.org and help feed hungry kids today. i'll be honest. by the end of the day, my floors...yeesh. but who has the time to clean? that's why i love my swiffer wetjet.

it's a quick and easy way to get my floors clean. wetjet absorbs and locks grime deep inside. look at that! swiffer wetjet.

while former congressman matt gaetz flamed out after hitting one of the very few guardrails left in trump's d.c., trump's remaining appointees may have a much easier time getting confirmed. according to reporting by hugo lowell at the guardian today, trump officials are set to receive immediate clearances and easier fbi vetting. lowell reports that trump's political employees will only face fbi background checks, after the incoming administration takes over the fbi, and its own officials are installed in key positions. here to explain why that should be alarming to everybody, is democratic congressman jim himes, ranking member of the house intelligence committee. congressman, glad to have you here. on its face, it seems disturbing that you would do away with the fbi vetting process, but another layer is waiting until trump officials are actually installed and have access to, you know, classified information, and, you know,

state secrets, before you actually begin to get them. what troubles you most about this potential scenario? >> you know, not surprising, right, we saw this a president who decided he would take very sensitive materials with him to mar-a-lago, that criminal case, of course, has been dismissed, but this is an administration and a president who has shown disregard for classified information. the reason this is so important, is because in a comp located world, iran, north korea, china, russia, desperate to understand our secrets, to know the capabilities that we have, and you can spin any number of scenarios. i mean, one of the reasons we do background checks is to see if, perhaps, an individual with access to classified information maybe has a friend who we suspect of being spies, or who maybe has something in

the background that could be used to blackmail them, something that is not known, but a chinese intelligence officer can say, hey, if you don't, you know, report back to me on x, y, z, we are going to expose you, here. so look, it is a dumb risk to take. especially since at the end of the day, transitions are used to getting this done very, very quickly in a way that does protect national security. >> i have to ask you, i think the question -- or, the answer seems obvious, at first. but, because of your expertise, i am curious to know how you feel about this. we have reporting that the trump team has been relying on private lawyers to do some of the background checks first some of its appointees. i am aware that they would presumably have less eyes on, in terms of potential compromised you know, positions, some of these appointees may have. but, can you talk specifically about how much weaker a vetting by a private lawyer would be, compared to a proper fbi background check? >> sure. i mean, look, a private lawyer is being paid an hourly fee and they might be reasonably good at a traditional, civil investigation, but looking into

somebody's background, understanding who is connected to who, that korean individual that you actually spent a week with in london two weeks ago, there is no way that a lawyer in the united states, who has access to the kind of information and an understanding for the networks that exist out there, designed to compromise these people, in the same way that the fbi would. so, look, it's just a silly thing, and it is particularly silly, given that a lot of the folks -- i mean, you start with matt gaetz, who fortunately is off the scene right now -- but, tulsi gabbard, tulsi gabbard was an elected official, a member of congress, ran for president, has never been through this process, has never had, to my knowledge, anyway, other than perhaps her service in the national guard, access to strategic level secrets. so, there is just a huge, huge exposure here that may not be undertaken, but the trump administration just seems to be partly just pointing a big

middle finger at anything that is traditional or conventional. a lot of it, which is there for a reason. >> seems to be pointing a big middle finger or actually is. tulsi gabbard -- the job of investigating tulsi gabbard's background has fallen in some ways, to the media. mother jones has an investigative piece looking at tulsi gabbard's numerous super pacs, and they have unidentifiable donors, suspicious spending, a lot of questions about who was bankrolling, effectively, some of her campaign arms. i know you are not in the senate, but if she is, in fact, go through the confirmation process, what questions would you have for tulsi gabbard, seeing as she could be the director of national intelligence? >> well, look, i have worked with a number of directors of national intelligence for a long time. there's really two key characteristics in that job. number one, it is a massive administrative job, coordinating 17 or 18 different intelligence agencies, it is a huge leadership, management, almost like corporate management, running a huge corporation, number one.

that is not something that tulsi gabbard has ever done. she has run for elected office pretty much her whole life, so there is a question about whether she has the basic managerial competence, and even more concerning, and the second attribute of a good senior intelligence person is that they -- regardless, and at any cost -- will speak truth to power. they cannot let their own opinions, they cannot let the concern about what the boss may want to hear interfere with what they say. and look, tulsi gabbard has been a purveyor of conspiracy theories for a long time. they were doing biomedical experiments in ukraine and maybe that is why russia invaded ukraine. i mean, the conspiracy theories go on, and on, and on. and if i was a senator, i would say, what is the deal? what is your attraction to these conspiracy theories? how can you make me comfortable that you will be nothing but a 100% straight shooter when you provide intelligence to the president of the united states? >> what you make of trump conditioning an investigation into boris epshteyn, his longtime lawyer who apparently was trying to shake down

potential cabinet nominees? do you think it is like a sign of hope that trump is vaguely interested in, i don't know, the grift? i am saying that with, you know, the caveat that it is trump we're talking about. >> well, look, it is -- you know, the intensity of the grift is just staggering. we have seen this for a moment. it must be confusing to be in the trump orbit because on the one hand, this is a guy who sells trump bibles, trump steaks, trump university, trumped the this, trump that, even trump's sneakers. it is okay for him to do that. the boss gets to do it. but, no one else gets to do it. that must be a confusing thing for it to be permissions in the top guy, but obviously, potentially a firing offense if you are not the top guy, so it must just be crazy town inside that operation. >> "i learned it from you, dad. i learned it from watching you." do you guys remember that ad? i'm showing my age, here. congressman jim himes.

thank you for your time tonight. really, really great to have your perspective and expertise on this. >> thank you, alex. still ahead this evening, antiabortion conservatives are waging a war of words on women's healthcare, but it is causing real deaths. propublica has the latest on yet another death because of a conservative abortion ban. i will speak with michelle goldberg about that, coming up, next. atch. ♪♪ good to go out even later. ♪♪ with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider, as few as 6 times a year. don't take cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or taking certain medicines, that may interact. serious side effects include allergic reactions or rash, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if these occur, get medical help right away. tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements, medical conditions, liver or kidney problems,

mental health, pregnancy, and breastfeeding. the most common side effect is injection site reaction ♪♪ with cabenuva, you're good to go. without daily hiv pills. talk to your doctor about switching. for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ask your doctor about farxiga.

i was out on a delivery, when i came across a snake... a rattler. fedex presents tall tales of true deliveries there we were, driver versus reptile. our battle was legendary. (♪♪)

wait a second. you don't own a pet snake, do you? phew maybe now my friends will believe me. if this is what we did for one delivery, see what we can do for your business. fedex. your business needs a network it can count on... see what we can do even during the unexpected. power's out! -power's out! power's out! comcast business has got you covered, with wifi backup to help keep you up and running. wifi's up. let's power on! let's power on! -let's power on! it's from the company with 99.9% network reliability. let's power on! power on with the leader in connectivity. get wifi backup for your business, or get started with comcast business internet. and for a limited time, get an $800 holiday bonus. call today.

since september, propublica has reported on several women known to have died with abortion bans.

yesterday, the outlet published the story of a fifth woman, 35- year-old mother of two, porsche who died hemorrhaging from a miscarriage at a hospital in texas, where abortion is banned from the moment of fertilization. multiple medical experts who reviewed porsche's case agreed that she needed a procedure called a dnc, which is often used in abortions, but it is still technically allowed in the state of texas. but, doctors often avoid administering these because they carry a 90 year prison sentence if they are found to have performed an abortion illegally. propublica is reporting shows that portia's death was preventable, but texas law seems to have pressured her doctor to abandon the standard of care. an increasingly prevalent pattern in states with abortion bans. joining me now is michelle goldberg, the new york times opinion columnist. michelle, it's great to have you with me. >> thank you. >> this is the new playbook.

i mean, just trying to decouple abortion care from healthcare, and you see what the results are, here. when you sort of untethered abortion care from just the basic survival of a patient. >> right. and i think the one thing that has happened is these laws have such narrow exceptions and the exceptions don't end up meaning anything in practice, because when you are in a chaotic environment of an emergency room, you know, when can the doctor say, you know, someone's life, as opposed to their health, is at stake. right? that is a very fine line. and texas changed the law to allow for emergency abortions, in cases of premature rupture of membranes, that is when your water breaks early. but, it is not that you can't be investigated and prosecuted, so it is called what is an affirmative defense. so, that means if you are taken to court and charged with this felony, you can use this fact in your defense. so, this is like, who wants -- you know, very few people are

willing to risk that kind of persecution, and risk seeing their life and their career go up in smoke. and even if, i think, doctors want to do the right thing -- and there is some question in this case about -- >> whether the doctors did -- yeah. >> but, when you have that threat hanging over your shoulder -- and not just yours, but kind of everybody in the process, everybody in the bureaucracy -- it is just always going to be a finger on the scales against doing what needs to be done. >> wright, and jessica valenti, i will not not call her, because she is young, very young, but one of the great writers on abortion rights that the effort to redefine and replace abortion in legislation has always been about laying the groundwork for one central, and false, argument -- that abortion is never medically necessary. and that is what you are seeing articulate here, right? >> yeah, absolutely. >> like, you can basically be

hemorrhaging but we will not give you a dnc because that is actually not -- it is a self- fulfilling process three. >> the reason they won't put medically necessary extensions into these laws because then they would have to admit that there is such thing as a medically necessary abortion. >> the other piece of it, the other self fulfilling prophecy of the standard of care getting banded, is that the doctors who specialize in this stuff, the ob/gyn's practicing in texas and capable of performing a dnc are increasingly few in number. there is one study that says 21% of ob/gyn's pulled in the state of texas are planning to leave the state because of these bans. you have a massive brain drain that is going to happen, here. >> and i think there is a real, moral injury to doctors when they don't feel like they can treat their patients the way their professional and ethical obligation requires. and so, you have already seen an uptick in the maternal mortality rate in texas. it is, i think, unclear how

much of that was due to the immediate aftereffects of covid antiabortion ban, they coincided. but, at least some of it seems to be due to the abortion ban and it is only going to get worse, as this trickles down through every single aspect of maternal healthcare. >> well, and the other piece of that is, in order to sort of cast a shadow over that reality, just as they are doing in georgia, texas, i believe, is avoiding the collection of data on women who have died from the texas ban, because they just have too many cases -- >> well, they are avoiding the examination of data, right? because they have these maternal mortality review boards and they go through and say, there is this death that could have been prevented. what are the circumstances? could it be prevented? should we change our policies a death like this don't happen in the future? yeah, in georgia, after the propublica story about these two women have died, they dissolved their maternal mortality review board, and in texas, they have just decided that they are not going to look

at cases in 2022 and 2023, which happened to be the two years after the abortion ban. >> and then, the last piece of it is, some of these complications arise from abortion medication, mifepristone, not working because of extenuating circumstances, being administered incorrectly -- in the case of this one woman in texas that we are talking about tonight -- and that, the antichoice movement uses to sort of hold this off and say, this is why you can't have medication abortion. >> right, they certainly did that in georgia where it was a woman who had gotten medication in a neighboring state, gone back, had complications that were left untreated. i think you will see in the new trump administration, those cases used as pretext to crack down on mail order abortion providers. >> i think almost certainly, that is what we are going to see. michelle goldberg, through the dark news. appreciate you. >> thank so much. >> that is our show. now it's time for "the last word" with