>> i know. quite a difference. >> what a movie. i think that's exactly what we should be doing tonight. thank you. glad to know that you have a short commute home. >> best of luck to you. >> thank you. that does it for us this hour. and remember follow us on social media. you can erewatch the best parts of our show on youtube msnbc.com/andrea. thank you all for joining us. everyone have a happy thanksgiving. my friend katy tur picks up our coverage right now. my friend ka coverage right now good to be with you. donald trump said on the campaign trail he wanted the war in ukraine to end and he named the person who will be in charge trying to bring it to that end. lieutenant general keith kellogg as assistant to the president and the special envoy for russia and ukraine. in a truth social post, trump's

that he has led a business career including in national security roles in my first administration. he was with me right from the beginning. together we will secure peace through strength and make america and the world safe again. we have reporting on what kellogg argued ukraine needs to do to keep u.s. weaponry and what russia needs to do to stop the u.s. from giving more support to ukraine. there is reporting on the heels of all of this about what the president-elect's team is not willing to do to make sure his most senior and sensitive aides are not national security threats themselves refusing to a standard fbi background check for them but republican senators are saying how that decision will affect their own decisions. joining us now, nbc news correspondent garrett haake and ryan nobles joining us from our washington bureau. also staff writer tom nichols and senior writer at the

dispatch and author of interim shadow, david drucker. what is he going to do in ukraine and russia? >> reporter: keith kellogg goes way back to when he was just candidate donald trump the first time in 2016 and served with him in some capacity. more or less ever since. he was selected because his views are in sabbatical with trump. he has written a paper about it, talked about the importance of bringing the conflict to a close with a settlement between russia and ukraine. he said this is not the kind of thing ukraine is likely to like but ukraine cannot fund a long- term stalemate. that sounds a lot like what donald trump has said about the war in ukraine. kellogg, a lieutenant general in the army before getting into this line of work being someone who is trying to bring those combatants to the table between

russia and ukraine, something trump said would be a priority before he takes office which is a whole other conversation about what influence he may or not have, katy. >> why does he believe kellogg is the person for this role? he has been around since 2015, 2016 days. why does he think kellogg has the necessary experience to negotiate between ukraine and russia? >> it has always been a closeness and trust. there personally in agreement with the idea the war needs to end even if it's not the end ukraine once. there is this element of central casting. kellogg is the type of tough guy general that trump has always liked and having someone with a military background in the mix in this conflict is something that appealed to him. other names floated for this position, kellogg was the only one with real military experience so i think trump

likes the resume and the fact both zelenskyy and putin if indeed there are negotiations in the future can pretty well know kellogg does speak for trump. there is not any daylight between them on this issue. >> ryan, what about kellogg on the hill? will there be pushback? could they have authority over this, number one. and number two, i want ask about the background checks but first on kellogg. >> reporter: this is not a senate confirmable post. this is something the trump administration can do on their own and it does not require the cabinet level official. but this is something that, you know, congress would have the authority over at least from the power of the person and what type of actions they can take from that perspective. you know, the way that ukraine policy plays out on capitol hill will be the more interesting conversation that takes place once the new congress takes hold.

this was something it doesn't necessarily follow along ideological lines, along party lines. you know, there are a number of republican hawks very much in favor of continuing to support ukraine in any way they can and there are progressive democrats who believe it is a bad idea to fund ukraine and continue to allow this situation to take place as it currently has i think there will be a wait and see in terms of how congress responds to this but kellogg is someone who has the necessary experience and the background to take on a job like this. you know, the response i think will be one of those we have to wait and see. >> let me ask you about fbi background checks. it is traditional -- they've been doing this for 70 years or so on the president's picks. one in the senate is arguing no one really cares. is that the predominant feeling among senate republicans, that

it doesn't matter if someone like tulsi gabbard or pete hegseth get an fbi background check? >> reporter: i would say that is far and awake the minority view among senate republicans. most senate republicans would like to see as full and wholesome of vetting of all of these candidates they can get and that includes the fbi doing their traditional background checks on all of these candidates but it also extends to the committees of jurisdiction doing their own investigations into these backgrounds. it is not necessarily to trip candidate up, right, katy? in many respects this is part of the advise and consent role designed to support the president and new administration so they perhaps could do one more round of background checking to make sure there is no sort of skeleton in any of these candidates' closet that could be a drag on the administration once they take office. now whether or not the lack of

background checks or the lack of timely background checks slows down the confirmation process, that leads to an open question. we have seen the senate especially as it relates to the failed attempted appointment of matt gaetz show a willingness to build a spine and stand up to donald trump when it comes to something like this and you could see the issue of not having the proper vetting of some of these candidates be a flashpoint at least for some of these republicans. remember, they can only lose four votes to get over the finish line so you can see the more moderate republicans insist they get background checks on these candidates before they vote yes. >> david, why would they not want background checks? >> i don't know senate republicans would hold that position at all. >> why would the trump team not want it? excuse me. >> i cannot come up with a good reason why it would move to senate republicans. >> [ laughter ] >> katy, all kidding aside, if

you are donald trump and these positions matter to you, which they do, and they will help push your agenda forward, you need to know what you are dealing with so you don't get tripped up the way the former and future president way the first time he was. he didn't have all of the relevant information he needed and weeks later he had to change course and replace somebody. the last thing he needs is for the secretary of defense or director of national intelligence to be a few weeks or a few months into the job and all of a sudden news breaks that overshadows what he's actually trying to do as president. not only does he have to replace a key advisor, but his agenda gets sidetracked. nobody in congress will vote for these people wants to be on the hook for a mistake. there is no reason -- i could see politically within the maga movement there is high suspicion with the federal bureau of investigation some of trump's supporters want the fbi shut down but the fact trump is

hiring for fbi director tells us that is not going to happen so if he will be in charge of the fbi i cannot come up with a good reason not to do this unless he's conducting his own via private methods and even then, it is something that needs to get done. >> a private security check is not going to be the same as an fbi background check. they don't have access and i imagine the same information. >> you are right. >> tom nichols, let me ask you the same question. could you come up with a reason? >> sure. if you don't want them vetted by the fbi, there could be things you don't want to come out and blow up their nomination. look, i lived in vermont years ago and our neighbor was the former governor of vermont. it just happened that way. she was nominated for secretary of education and federal agents

literally came to my door and said the governor has been nominating for something. this nice elderly lady who lives next to you in vermont, anything you want to tell us? i mean, it's not just for national secrets. every cabinet member has access to the white house, to the immediate proximity of the president of the united states. of course you check everybody out whether it is the former governor of vermont or the secretary of education or someone running the biggest iraq receipt and most powerful military in the world. it should be an immediate red flag to say there are people i don't want the fbi to look into. that's because you know bad things will happen which says the initial process that produced these names was basically trump saying i just like these people. now they are stuck. i want to emphasize david's point that the senators -- i worked for senator. voting blind and a month later, on the hook when someone says

this terrible thing that just happened you know that we now know about these confirmed senate -- excuse me, cabinet members, you voted for that person and did it without any information. what does that say about you, senator? there is no senator of any party who wants to be that guy at that moment. >> garrett, do you want to chime in on this? any insight to the trump team and their thinking or whether or not they have any worry of senators pushing back on the fbi background check? >> reporter: look, david got to this at the end of his response. the reason trump doesn't trust the fbi is because they raided his house. he has a deep distrust for the fbi and the department of justice more broadly and he does not want them looking around in the files and backgrounds of those people he wants to put into his cabinet

and administration who he thinks will help take those organizations apart to a certain degree. all of those risks notwithstanding i think that is a big part of how donald trump looks at this but the challenge he will run into as tom got into, his nominees will be hanging out there twisting in the wind for months until they are able to have their confirmation hearings. lawmakers come back into town next week and will be asked about this. even the most pro-trump lawmakers in the senate will be casting vote on the stoned necessarily have the same anti- feelings that trump does. they will want to know who they are voting for and what is coming across the trend. we do not want another mike flynn situation. things came up in his backgrounds from fbi issues that ultimately led to a conviction for him and was later pardoned by trump. that is not a risk elected senators want to take and i think pressure will build before people get in front of confirmation hearings. some kind of background checks will senate judiciary finance

help committees who are looking at these most controversial nominees. >> tom, i want to go back to keith kellogg and this ukraine/russia position. kellogg outlined what his would-be plan would be if he were in charge, part of the afi or afp institute. it is a paper and he says tell the ukrainians to come to the table and if you don't support from the u.s. will dry up. he says, you tell putin he's got to come to the table and if you don't come to the table, we will give ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field. there would also be something about nato that moscow with the promise of nato membership for ukraine being put off for an extended period. is this -- it sounds like this is giving vladimir putin a whole lot of what he would want, freezing the battle lines where they currently are which means russia gets more territory and put enough nato membership which is said to be

very, very uncomfortable and angering for moscow and vladimir putin. they don't want more nato members in europe and specifically they don't want ukraine to be a member of nato. >> first of all, the whole nato membership thing was, you know, the kind of thing that was aspirational until russia invaded. i mean, the idea ukraine in any reasonable timeframe was ever going to become part of nato, especially with crimea still occupied, was really not something that was going to happen anytime soon. the russians knew it. well, we have to invade because we have been provoked by this, you know, possibility that in the next 10 minutes ukraine will join nato. the only reason ukraine has a better shot at nato membership is because the russians have scared the daylights out of everybody by proving they are exactly the aggressive menace that everybody thought they were. putin keeps playing to that,

you know, and showing why he is exactly why nato exists. i was actually very low nato guy in the late '90s but putin has showed me there is a reason nato exists after the cold war and the war in ukraine as part of it. as for the kellogg plan, it's great for putin . it freezes the conflict in place which works to his advantage so he can rearm, get a breather, get more troops up to the line, and start again, just as he has done in other conflicts. well, i came to the table. the ukrainians haven't lived up to their side of it so i have to start hostilities again. this kellogg plan, first of all, i don't believe for one moment they will say oh, russia didn't come to the table so we will flood ukraine with weapons. that's an empty threat. as garrett was talking about,

the trump people don't like the fbi. they have no love for ukraine either. remember trying to pressure ukraine trump got impeached the first time. >> yeah. >> they are carrying that garage with them. >> is there a western europe wrinkle to this, tom? any meaningful pushback from our allies in france, the uk, germany to keith kellogg going over there to try to freeze the borders and force postponed nato membership for ukraine? could there be blowback? >> sure. they could say well, the united states is proposing this. ukraine doesn't want to do it. we will keep sending money and weapons to ukraine. one of the myths here that you mentioned earlier in your report, we cannot afford to keep doing this. 5% of the defense budget has destroyed about half of russia's

military capability in this war. you know, we are a wealthy country. the europeans are a wealthy country. this is costing money. it's interesting because conservatives used to argue with liberals to say we have plenty of money for guns and butter here, but this is not like the iraq war where, you know, we are mobilizing huge resources and u.s. government, so -- >> on that point one of the arguments donald trump and his allies have made about the wars in ukraine and israel, we shouldn't be focused on things happening overseas. we should be focused on things here at home. that money would be better spent here at home. if that money were not spent on arming ukraine and sending arms to israel, will that money go to welfare programs, social security, medicaid, child tax credit, paid parental leave for everybody in this country? >> this is one of the oldest

false choices in american politics, something that happens every four years. if only we weren't spending the money here, we would be spending the money there. if only we weren't sending it to this country we would be spending it. first of all, foreign aid is actually money spent in the united states. a lot of the weapons, you know, senator tuberville had a comment the other day about this. apparently unaware many of the weapons that are bought and sent to ukraine are made in alabama. people don't realize that most of american foreign aid, less than 1% of our budget, is spent in the united states on american workers for american products. the idea you can simply say, well, things happening in other parts of the world will not affect us is foolish and shortsighted and an old isolationist tactic to say, oh, we should be more concerned about paris than ohio.

>> not paris, france. paris, texas, maybe. that said, there is a strong isolation among a lot of americans. a lot of americans who voted for donald trump, they don't want to be involved in things overseas. they would like to see us worry about whatever is happening here at home. whatever that means. what they are saying is they don't want to be involved in foreign conflicts. >> right. look, it is an american tradition to not care about what happens across the atlantic or the pacific and to prefer to stay out of foreign conflict. the problem we have learned over the past 100 years if not more, when we put our heads in the sand as a country and focus inward, these problems eventually find us. one of the biggest observers of what the trump administration, the new trump administration, decides to do in ukraine is going to be tear it up.

they will watch exactly what kind of deal we will try to force in ukraine, how much we are willing to stand with ukraine, what are appetite is to continue to be involved in that part of the world because they have designs on taiwan in the greater asian-pacific. in the first trump administration, there were things he did that showed he was not concerned about escalation. look at his middle east policy. he botched iran. he worked with allies in that region. in europe and asia, he has not shown the same appetite to work with allies and box in our adversaries. the kellogg appointment would suggest not much has changed in that regard . we will have to see what happens. >> and his interest is a gated way to look at it. gentlemen, thank you very much. coming up after the break, what trump's latest picks for

economic team would suggest about tariffs. we are back in 90 seconds. get four on us. only on verizon. ahh, yellow! didn't pass the tissue test? buckle up! whoa! there's toothpaste white, and there's crest 3dwhitestrips white. whitens like a 400 dollar professional treatment. pilot: prepare for non-stop smiles. crest.

mexico suggest it would impose retaliatory tariffs after trump called for a tariff on goods and services from both mexico and canada. china is also rebuffing trump's threat of a 10% tariff on

chinese goods icing no one will win a trade war or a tariff war. while proposed tariffs are on the extreme side of trump's proposed economic policy, the team he has picked could serve as a moderating force including the selection of kevin hassett who has said in the past tariffs could weaken economic growth. joining us now, ceo of ie 5 hi, ron, i stumbled over the entire lead-in and introduction to the segment! but i got it right, so i'm happy about that. okay, kevin hassett, what will that mean for tariffs, for our economic policy? >> i think it is a tough call, katy. just as wall street shared, this secretary nominee, when his

name surfaced over the weekend and we had a rally on monday, president trump immediately comes out and talks about the 25% tariffs on mexico, additional levies on chinese goods, suggesting no one else is in charge of economic policy even if they have the job. the second highest with kevin hassett there, kevin was chair of the economic advisers in the last trump administration. will these folks be a moderating force? well, against a donald trump, you know, impulses to go hard against our trading partners, that is an open question. the president seems to be making the case he wants to do this. he did not consult with anybody when he put out a post on truth social the other night and neither does marco rubio either. >> this is the same thing that happened the last time around. he leaked these announcements and treated them as an opening

bid, an opening offer on the table for whatever negotiations were to follow. i'm not subscribing to that as a great policy or negotiating tactic, but that is the way he sees it. >> that is the way he sees it and he put tariffs on china that cost american farmers tens of billions of dollars. >> and he bailed out on those same farmers? >> he paid subsidies in addition to the subsidies they were getting because they were having trouble selling overseas. the biden administration, by the way, has continued following the trump administration and can be potent when it comes to national security issues, issues of supremacy and things like that. tariff can lead to a trade war and weaken economic growth. the question now is whether or not president-elect trump will listen to his advisors, or as he has said in private interviews believe tariff is the most beautiful word in the world? that is what we have to be

worried about. >> there are questions on whether china really does much to push back on this and whether they are in a strong enough position given the status of their economy, but will china -- i mean, instead of blanket tariffs slapped back on us, couldn't they do more damage by targeting certain industries, certain companies that might have an effect here at home? >> there are a lot of other things they could do rather than putting up barriers. they could make exports to the world that much cheaper and remain competitive with united states. that is one way. yes, they could what you said and target specific industries. the last time we saw europeans and others target kentucky bourbon, mitch mcconnell's backyard when he was senate majority leader. yes, there could be a lot of moving parts and a lot of ways for this battle or ultimately war to play out. i don't think it's terribly constructive or the best use of

power. particularly with canada and mexico, we do $1.3 trillion in cross-border trade. we get auto parts, lumber, oil from both of these countries. a trade war among the north american countries with whom we have a trilateral trade agreement which would be broken if the tariffs were imposed could be problematic. listen, going back to 2016, we had this debate whether you take donald trump literally or seriously and this time around we take him both. >> i don't even know what that means. i can't keep any of that straight in my head. okay. ron insana, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, katy. after a ceasefire ended, the strikes that displaced them. what led up to those ceasefire

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♪ you gotta give the people ♪ ♪ you gotta give the people ♪ ♪ you gotta give the people ♪ ♪ what they want ♪ wait till you see this. thousands of people have returned to their homes in southern lebanon as the ceasefire between hezbollah goes into effect ending more than year fighting. what the truce could mean for the families held in gaza and for the millions of palestinians that live in constant danger is an open question. president biden set over the coming days the u.s. and others -- the u.s. will make another push for ceasefire and hostage deal between israel and hamas.

joining me now, former deputy hair secretary of state joel rubin. i was talking about this yesterday with some pretty smart folks. they expressed skepticism the ceasefire will hold because the group tasked with holding it is the lebanese military which is, you know, not very strong. >> yeah, katy. look, it's always great to be with you and i would call this a good day to have a ceasefire negotiated where diplomacy has weighed in in a matter that helps the lebanese people and israeli people. it is a quarter-point, this is truly the keystone of the whole agreement, the lebanese military. can their armed forces fully take control of south lebanon in a manner that guarantee security both for the lebanese people and northern israel and moves has allowed above the

demarcation line the u.n. was almost two decades ago for hezbollah to retreat to. that is the cornerstone. that has to be done and i do think we will see international efforts focused strongly on providing a capacity and mechanisms in a ceasefire deal to ensure if there are violations they can be handled and managed but without a doubt that is how this agreement truly does come into real enforcement. >> what part is iran playing in this right now? >> iran -- it is a complicated moment for iran right now, katy. we've talked about this in the past and i remember clearly talking about why is hezbollah there? what role do they have? it was to provide a hedge for iran to prevent any type of israeli assault on iran and threaten northern israel but now israel has decimated hezbollah. 70 to 80% of its arsenal is

destroyed and it does not have it ability to rebuild. we have seen iran who essentially blessed hezbollah getting involved in this war after hamas' attack on october 7th change tunes and support a ceasefire, leaving hamas alone and isolated. iran is on its heels. we should look at this agreement as one of strength, one that was done with strong pushback against iran and recognizing the reality hezbollah really can't manage any longer to stay in this fight. >> let me play a bit of the national security advisor jake sullivan on what this will mean for hamas and negotiations for a cease fire in gaza. here he is on "morning joe" this morning. >> there have been contact for mediators with hamas in recent weeks. we believe now that we have a cease fire in lebanon of pressure will only grow on hamas

to reach a deal. i cannot predict if and when it will happen but we will put every ounce of effort we have into making it happen and to getting the hostages home. >> why would hamas feel more pressure now? i mean, gaza is devastated. their leadership has been decimated. why would they be more willing now? >> you know, they have to look at the reality around them which is not only to your point devastated and decimated in this war and the pain of the palestinian people, they are now isolated among their own allies. iran has signaled by supporting this ceasefire it does not any longer have an appetite linking the lebanon conflict to the gaza conflict. this is an opportunity for hamas to look in the mirror and decide do they care about the palestinian people? if they do, they will return the hostages.

if they don't, within a couple of months they will be looking at a very different chessboard. a different president of the united states. they will not see opportunities to take advantage of the diplomatic window that is before them and they should. they should move to try to get something on the ground that enhances and helps the palestinian peoples lives. i just want to add there is a reconstruction that needs to take place in southern lebanon. if it's done properly, that will make sure iran cannot reassert itself or hezbollah into running southern lebanon. their government controls their own country, just like the people in northern israel can go back and try to rebuild their lives as well but this is the window for hamas and they have to show they care about the palestinian people. >> we will see if this is an inflection point and if things will start to change. joel rubin, thank you. our next guest spent time

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in a visit to the u.s./mexico border yesterday donald trump's pick for border czar said the incoming trump administration is planning how to implement mass deportations. quote, we are not waiting until january to secure the nation at the highest levels, the highest this nation has ever seen.

what does that planning look like? joining us now is one of the journalists who has been assigned to the border and a poll with thing -- poll with surprise when her. tell us where you were and what you saw . >> so, i went, katy, to raymondville, texas near the u.s./mexico border in south texas and i was there in the year 2011 and we were reporting on basically what happened after george w. bush after 9/11 decided to do essentially this mass roundup of people. it went quickly from 2004, 2005, 2006. we were reporting on what the ramp looked like and it was pretty horrific. basically throwing up circus tents, no heating, no hot water

, you know, bunk beds, two or three above each other. no windows. in fact, you are not allowed to look out a window and that is what we uncovered in 2011. persistent psychological, physical, sexual abuse at the attention -- detention facilities. whether or not we will be allowed to see those camps is one thing but what we do know, what i was reporting about in 2011, it's only increased. >> are these the same camps the trump administration will be using? >> it is hard to tell. this was a different time period but there is a possibility that is what it would look like and if you think about some of the makeshift camps that have been set up in places like red hook in new york city, they are very similar. these are not places human beings should be for a long

period of time and many of these people actually have family members that would like to welcome them but there is this holding situation that ends up giving more profits to the private prison industry which will end up running these camps. >> the trump administration will say if you walk across the border and they put you into a detention camp instead of allowing you to claim asylum and to go forth within the country, the message will quickly be sent to those who try to cross the border after them that they cannot do that. functionally does that happen? >> we have to understand and actually you can look at what the mexican president said, really schooling donald trump on the issue of tariffs in my region. you cannot solve this problem by, for example, building walls like this. that wall you are showing right there, katy, there are holes underneath the wall. where i was on the southern

border, 21 miles of wall, katy, with 19 openings. openings as large as for cattle to come through. openings underneath. the message being sent to those coming are we want you, but we don't want you. come, but don't come. not everyone wants to come to the united states. let me tell you that. people who are coming now are desperate. they are refugees. others know there are jobs waiting for them right here in the united states. >> how do you fix this issue? there is a sentiment among americans, ones who voted for donald trump that the immigration in this country, the levels are too high and coming in too fast. it's not orderly. there is not a system for it. a lot of latinos voted for donald trump and said i don't like the free giveaways for the

people coming over the border. i'm working every day and struggling to make ends meet. i don't like these folks are getting hotel rooms, food vouchers, free clothes. they seem to be getting it easier while the rest of us are struggling. what do you do to address this problem here at home? it is a real political issue among a lot of americans who don't like it. >> understood. but you know what you do? you base the conversation in fact. right? we know that crime immigrants are bringing is so out of control, katy, we don't have an immigration problem. we have a crime problem. as for the department of fbi and department of justice, we have a crime problem. when you say americans are worried about this, i understand that but if they open their eyes, what exactly are they worried about? because -- >> well, it's not just crime. it's not just people upset or worried or feel unsafe.

there are people who don't think it's fair. they don't like it. >> well, the question affair -- here is the situation, katy. when you have a refugee. when you have someone applying for refugee status it's a very different situation than when you're coming in undocumented. whatever it is, that is a real question and i've heard it on the ground, katy. you are right. some people are saying well, why do they get to stay at the roosevelt hotel? nobody comes to the united states expecting a handout. no one. it is very important people realize that. i've been there, right? i've been on the caravans at the border. people are not like, oh, my god. i am coming to get a hotel room at the roosevelt hotel. >> of course not. >> understanding the if we had a more thorough conversation about the fact immigration has been part of our country's history since forever, since the time you and i have been journalists, katy, people have

been saying the sky is falling down and everything that is wrong with united states and economy is because of immigrants. we know the economy goes through booms and busts, not because of immigrants. how do we solve it? that's huge when you only have 30 seconds left to talk but a broader conversation based in fact where people can actually open their eyes and say, okay, most of the immigrants i see around me are actually -- actually all of them are not doing anything but contributing and working to make this country and themselves better. >> maria hinojosa, thank you so much. we are right, we need more than 30 seconds to tackle an issue like this. thank you for your time. >> thank you, katy. coming up after the break, we will talk about something important to voters, inflation. but probably not the kind of inflation you're thinking about. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. miebo is the only prescription dry eye drop that forms a protective layer for the number one cause of dry eye:

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number on your screen now, and ask about a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. and remember, annual enrollment ends on december 7th. humana. a more human way to healthcare. right now the rush is on to blowup the macy's thanksgiving day balloons ahead of thanksgiving's biggest show. it's inflation. do you get it? joining us now, correspondent erin mclaughlin. best assignment of the day! how is it going over there? >> reporter: exactly. it is so much fun out here, katy. so much to look forward to with tomorrow's parade. six new floats, six new balloons. two of them are behind me.

you can see the reimagined spider-man, the first time spider-man takes to the skies in more than a decade. this spider-man is more than 70 feet long and over here, marshall from paw patrol. fun fact, marshall is the size of two new york city fire trucks. this, of course, in addition to all of the favorites including simon from despicable me. we were talking to the team captain from that balloon and she was telling me about the inflation process. take a listen. >> open the sleeve and you can actually see you can plug the hose into the sleeve and insert some helium. stewart was the only balloon with an animatronic fan attached to him. there is a man and legs and his

legs will kick. >> reporter: now the weather is always a concern when it comes to the parade. there is rain in the forecast tomorrow, however organizers tell me this parade is going ahead rain or shine. they say luckily there is no wind in the forecast, so a lot to look forward to tomorrow, katy. >> the macy's day parade came around and it was terrible weather. it was freezing rain and i remember hearing the weathercaster and laughing saying, freezing rain? that's hail. in california, no one had any idea what freezing rain was. it was a hard lesson to learn my first fall here in new york that freezing rain is a thing and it happens quite often. erin mclaughlin, hopefully he does not happen tomorrow though! >> reporter: fingers crossed. fingers crossed.

>> fingers crossed. the show must go on despite the weather. coming up after the break, we know about donald trump's latest healthcare pick.

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good to be with you. i am katy tur. what does it meet to, quote, make america healthy again under donald trump? first, a massive shakeup at

federal health agencies but with what aim? what do robert f. kennedy, mehmet oz, and dr. bennett area have in common? all are picks to lead key agencies and all have on some level questioned accepted science or the implementation of public health. all have a track record on covid, specifically a record of questioning the federal government's mandates from lockdowns and masks to the very vaccine that got us out of the pandemic. the latest pick, national institute of health, is a stanford professor of health policy famously pushed herd immunity in the early stages of the pandemic. the views were considered fringe at the time but not everyone is rushing out to condemn this pick, so who is he exactly, and what can we expect when he and these other men take over? joining us now, nbc news correspondent garrett haake, who covers the trump

administration, staff writer and political contributor mark leavitt which, and center for health security at the bloomberg school of public health. garrett, first to you. dr. bhattacharya. who is he? >> reporter: he is an academic associated with stanford university. he came to prominence in what was a fringe theory to push for herd immunity during the covid can head -- pandemic. he has become a celebrity figure on the right for his opposition to things like mask and vaccine mandates throughout the course of the pandemic. that is probably the issue that brought them to donald trump's attention but when you look at his biography and the things he studies, it is easy to see where he aligns with robert f. kennedy and with the health and human services kind of overall movement that focuses on things like chronic diseases than communicable diseases, like

covid. his biography includes broader research encompassing the implications of future population health of an aging tabulation, medical spending and developed countries, and measurement of physician performance tied to payment by insurers. if you try to overhaul the federal health systems in this country, that is the kind of background you might expect. you have it here with someone who will have to be kennett -- senate confirmed. no opposition from the republicans who will ultimately decide his fate sometime next year. >> give us the medical view on this man. >> what you really have two addresses the fact he was the architect of the great barrington declaration which came out in october of 2020 and argued against lockdowns. no one was happy with lockdowns but what they were offering was this herd immunity. lower risk people would be getting infected.

no mention of testing, tracing, using masks, basically something that would allow the virus to disrupt life even more than it was at that time and that created this false alternative, where either you or the great barrington declaration or you wanted everything shut down for ever. people don't realize how intellectually dishonest that declaration was because there were better ways to do this, like south korea, like taiwan. they wanted to be so against the lockdowns they kind of discounted what covid was doing in terms of disrupting. i don't think this is a good pick and i don't think he is someone with great credentials. his thinking on covid and since then he's talked about withdrawing the licensure for the covid vaccines. it has gone to a place we really shouldn't put him in control of the mih. >> part of the issue with donald trump's first presidency which we may end up seeing again, donald trump took one

extreme position that forced the other side to take the opposite position and it pushed and separated people further and further apart and made them more duggan on extreme positions on their own. there was little room for moderation. when it comes to covid in retrospect there is a lot of question on whether masking was the best approach. even dr. collins was saying social considerations should have been kept in mind especially when it comes to children and schooling. when you look at a pick like this and how he came up to prominence, what is the expectation in terms of the general population, the public for how health policy is going to -- i guess affect the population and how we will see our neighbors based on the

opinions they hold about -- i don't know, getting their kids vaccinated in order to go to school. >> right. i think a lot of this is predicated on one huge hypothetical i think we can all agree we hope does not come to pass which is hopefully there will be no pandemic in the next four years. hopefully something like masking and school closures and remote learning and social distancing will not be the kind of thing we have to talk about or think about over the next few years. we know all too well that it's possible and it's happened before. there could be some other kind of covid outbreak. even if there were another pandemic, even if democrats were still in charge, there has been a lot of retroactive second-guessing or at least, you know, trying to keep a more humble approach to where we all might be on the political spectrum were on the doctor spectrum four years ago, and three years ago to some degree.

bottom line, it sounds like a copout answer but the thing about the pandemic and public health crises and public health threats, you don't know what you are dealing with. every crises is different and hopefully we will be able to live without thinking of this like we have throughout history. >> meredith, when you take the choices for health policy and when you look at them all together, you look at mehmet oz, kennedy, dr. bhattacharya, these are all folks who had staked out a position on covid in particular. donald trump sees covid as the bane of his last administration and why he believes he didn't -- i don't know if we can say he didn't win but a lot of people will say he did not win even the he is refusing to say he didn't win. what do you read into the choices he is making specifically on folks who were covid counter voices?

>> well, i think the pattern you are seeing with this, these doctors came to public prominence during the pandemic and expressed skepticism about the way the federal government was handling the pandemic and some of the recommendations they were making. in the case of bhattacharya, dr. bhattacharya, he said , you know, forcing people who did not get vaccinated to step away from their jobs or from public life really caused great harm to public trust in health officials and with documents like the great barrington declaration and a lot of the skepticism we saw especially embraced on the right, people who thought the government had a lot of overreach, some of these doctors gained a lot of prominence and popularity and what you are seeing with all of these picks is the residual effects of covid-19 and the

politics around it on public health decisions and, you know, how the right viewed the pandemic and a lot of the backlash to the way the government responded. >> yeah, one of your colleagues at the atlantic, mark, said this much more eloquently than i did. revenge of the covid contrarians. the public health establishment now in control of it. anger swept the covid contrarians into power. now they will have a chance to fix systemic problems with the nation's public health establishment. they'll also have the ability to settle scores. dr. amesh adalja, when you are setting scores or -- i will go to dr. adalja for this.

do you think it can be fixed? >> infectious diseases are part of politics as everything else is. not is this an objective scientific policy, so that is the problem. when you use infectious disease problems to settle scores, it will be like everything else in our life and that will increase distrust among the public because they will say that is how the republicans do something or how the democrats view something. there are correct ways to do that and there is a lot of truth to the criticisms both during the trump administration and biden administration with covid. not enough harm reduction. i was on your show so many times during the pandemic teaching people how to use tools to navigate with covid. not going to these two opposites that are, again, as i said, a false alternative and that is the problem. this will be looked at as scoring points on the other side rather than dealing with a societal problem

like infectious disease. >> he wouldn't call him fringe. here is what he said. there were times during the pandemic he took a set of views contrary to most of people in the health world including my views but he's fundamentally very smart and a well-qualified person. are there views of his i could say i think he was wrong? yeah, absolutely, but when you look at his 20 years of work i think it's hard to call him fringe. are you arguing, dr. adalja, that has changed in the last 20 years? >> i don't think his ideas were fringe and i don't like how they were called fringe and they were not publicly debated. dr. fauci should have publicly debated him and talked about the merits and demerits of the great barrington approach. experts might disagree and there is a truth to be found, but i think the idea he said recently on x to withdraw the fda licensure of the covid

vaccine, that's beyond the pale for me but the great barrington declaration was wrong on many levels, but it should have been something publicly debated. by calling him fringe, it dog people in and we've got all of the politics involved in infectious disease again and that is the main problem we will face going forward with the next pandemic, bird flu, whatever it is. >> debate public policy and have it out there in the open. some people may disagree. explain why you are pursuing this policy over the others at the cost-benefit analysis in the public square. dr. adalja, thank you for joining us. meridith mcgraw, garrett haake, appreciate it. mark, you are sticking around. coming up, since harris seceding, her message. and what we are learning about negotiations that made a

prisoner swap happen. plus, what trump's border czar is warning opponents about his mass deportation plan. we are back in 90 seconds. throughout the day when you can take 1 prilosec. for easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. prilosec otc. one pill. 24 hours. zero heartburn. the best moments deserve the best eggs. especially when they're eggland's best. taste so deliciously fresh. with better nutrition, too. we love our eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best.

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don't you ever let anybody take your power from you. you have the same power that you did before november 5th and you have the same purpose that you did. and you have the same ability to engage and inspire. >> vice president harris addressed her supporters directly last night as her campaign team had their first public discussion about where they might have fallen short at the 2024 race. here was senior advisor on the america podcast. >> i thought at the end of the day particularly because trump did not close well i thought and i thought kamala harris close well trump was reminding people some of the things they don't like about him that that might give us what we needed but at the end of the day a political atmosphere, the desire for change, the fundamentals you spend a lot of time talking about presented

huge challenges for us. we got there, but we didn't get what we needed on election day. >> joining us now, the 19th editor at large and chief strategist with the liz cheney 2004 presidential campaign. both are political contributors and still with us is mark leibovich. all right, erin, i will start with you. what did you think of what david plouffe told the gods of america guys? >> the podcast was like an hour and a half just revisiting what happened. look, i certainly wrote in my column at one point that 107 days was the only way we were going to get vice president kamala harris as a candidate but was 107 days enough to win over the american electorate? the answer is no. obviously the answer is no but

that's also where the campaign team landed. you know, i think also reflecting on where we are as a democracy on the other side of this election is absolutely a useful exercise but was also useful is to remind ourselves of who we are as a country. you know, are we a country committed to this idea of multicultural, multiracial, multi-gendered democracy? what if we aren't? i was listening to the podcast and reading the postmortem assessments of 2024 that suggests this strategy going forward that abandons identity politics and that is the thing i found most interesting from this conversation and others like it because it's not as if donald trump's strategy was not based on identity politics, right, katy? maga is an identity. it ranges on issues from the economy to immigration. this was not about democrats or

kamala harris losing. the other side had a better identity politics strategy. on the other side of this, thinking about who the voters are as opposed to who either of these candidates are and who had the better campaign is the question we need to ask ourselves now. >> one of the arguments is not totally its identity politics fault but democrats focused on the wrong identities. instead of focusing on the differences between people and their socioeconomic levels, they focused on different races. ultimately all of those people or the majority of them were college-educated and lived in cities. they were of a certain class and didn't go to the people of the other class, the lower socioeconomic class who are struggling more and that is what donald trump was able to do effectively, to peel off a number of those voters who had long seen black and brown and white voters with long seen the democratic party as their

ancestral home. >> yeah. i mean, look, i certainly take that point, but also weaponizing immigration, especially in the home stretch in a way that did appeal certainly to the white voters that he already had but also interestingly two-year point that was a message that resonated with black and brown voters, particularly black men, latino men who were opened with message on things like immigration and that was also a message that was tied to the economy which we know is the number one issue for all voters. you know, i think it -- as we continue to process how and why this happened, unpacking what the role of identity politics in all of this feels very important to do in this moment, and i think the other thing we have to acknowledge is the thing we don't or can't or haven't yet figured out how to pull for and that is what it'll

take for this country to elect a woman and specifically for the american elective to believe a woman is the most qualified person to lead on issues whether it's the economy or foreign-policy. you know, whether we associate the qualities we associate with the president with women, like strengths, authority, a commanding presence, or trustworthiness. for the second time in history, donald trump has beat the woman running against him. people saw him as the person who was more -- you know, the candidate they preferred so i think there are complicated answers for how that happened but i think we should be asking ourselves why and what role gender which was absolutely on display in this election played in the outcome. >> i think you are right to ask that question and to see how much of a role it did play. i wonder though, and i would love to hear your opinion on this, matthew, if this is more of a democratic party problem. the democratic party not necessarily having an identity

in itself. or not being well enough defined for the public. as a change vehicle. >> i mean, here is how i look at this. myths develop in the aftermath of an election that are not based in data and and actually what happened. i think we can't talk about this election and i noticed on this podcast that i listened to part of that the elephant in the room or the donkey in the room that was never mentioned was joe biden. joe biden's job approval rating on election day was 40%. the normal election outcome of someone with 40% approval rating for the vice president is to get 40 or 41% of the vote. the vice president got 48% of the vote. i think reading this one election as somehow an examination of other than the most important factor on

election day in every state and every demographic group was joe biden's approval rating. that's what drove the vote cast more than anything else. i would remind the listeners and viewers two years ago the democrats did exceedingly well in these states and elected women across the board for governor, for senate not only in 2022 but in 2024 simultaneously when the vice president was losing in this. over reading this in too many other avenues i think takes -- democrats -- i think here is what happening. both democrats and republicans are misreading the results of the reelection. democrats think they have to somehow abandon all of these things and somehow reformulate their party when i believe that isn't true. they have to make adjustments, make changes, do certain things, but it basically they won in 2022 and republicans are

misreading the election thinking they won because of donald trump. they won despite of donald trump. donald trump underperformed by seven or eight points. that is what we have to start with. then we can talk about all of the other stuff. >> mark, what do you think of that? >> i think i agree. a couple of bottom lines here. one, it was basically a 50-50 race. hillary clinton had a 50-50 race and she won the popular vote. kamala harris was a good candidate. i don't think she was a great candidate. one of the reason for this, joe biden put her in a terrible position and he, himself, was unpopular. inflation, immigration, all of those issues really weighed him down. the other part of this, donald trump -- i kind of agree with matthew in that, yes, he underperformed to some degree given biden's approval, but

look, trump is a turnout machine. he over performed in 2016, he over performed in the polls in 2020, and it seems he over performed the polls a tiny bit in this case. republicans have proven time and time again when donald trump is not on the ballot they underperform. in a few years it is likely there will be a new democratic candidate, perhaps someone we are not even talking about now the way barack obama was not anyone we talked about in 2005. donald trump will not be on the ballot. republicans will not have that turnout magic he has, you know, proven to be an ownership of for three straight elections and that will be winding down and we will be in another chapter. again, 50-50. that will be true going forward. >> democrats have two years to find the next generation and

get them ready for the election cycle which begins in two years time. mark, matt, you are sticking around. errin, thank you. coming up, the incoming border czar is warning mayors and governors who do not comply with his deportation plans. but first, three americans freed after a prisoner swap with china, and how it happened. irritating residues. and it's gentle on her skin. tide free and gentle liquid is epa safer choice certified. it's gotta be tide. ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see.

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three americans have been released from chinese prisons and are on their way home just in time for thanksgiving. mark swidan, kai li, and john leung are on planes heading back to the united states. the prisoner swap comes after a month-long effort between president biden and president xi jinping speaking face-to- face just 10 days ago. joining us now, daniele hamamdjian. there is so little information about these hostages. what do we know conclusively? >> reporter: well, i will start with kai li, age 17 from long island, new york. he was detained in 2016, sentenced to 10 years in 2018 on espionage charges, which his family denies. his son testified before the congressional committee and told them his father had a stroke, that he was locked up

for 24 hours a day in a cell and not allowed out due to the covid pandemic restriction. mark swidan, texas businessman in his 40s, had been detained since 2012 and was sentenced to death with a reprieve in 2019 after being convicted on drug- related charges. a u.n. working group determined there was no evidential basis. those two men, kai li and mark swidan, according to u.s. officials were wrongfully detained. and john leung, a man in his 70s. he had permanent residency in hong kong and was sentenced to life for espionage in eastern china. he was a member of a pro- beijing group in the united states, was often pictured with chinese officials. according to the new york times citing u.s. officials speaking on anonymity, john leung was

also an fbi informant who passed on information for many years to the fbi. he was advised not to travel to china in 2021, which he did anyway. he was arrested and not heard from for about two years. now in return for these three men, we know that two chinese nationals were released from u.s. custody, among them is an officer for china's ministry of state security. he was arrested for trying to steal information or technology from ge aviation, and the second was arrested for trying to spy for the chinese government, katy. >> do we know more on how this came to pass? >> reporter: it had been in the works for months. biden administration officials had raised the issue with their chinese counterparts. president biden pressed the issue of the return of wrongfully detained americans in china with president xi.

don't expect what we saw when the big russian prisoner swap happened. this will likely be a low-key affair. remember in any negotiation you want to reserve or maintain the ability to negotiate in the future and keep in mind there are families who have not on public where the cases of their loved ones because they don't want to obstruct their return. katy ? >> daniele hamamdjian, thank you so much. coming up, a tradition that led these two strangers to spend thanksgiving together and why they're doing it again this year. first fell, donald trump's border czar carrying out mass deportations. what he is warning to officials who don't comply.

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donald trump's incoming border czar tom homan visited the southern border yesterday and previewed his plans committing to deliver on trump's mass deportation promises, specifically in sanctuary cities, threatening jail time for any official who does not comply. white house correspondent gabe gutierrez has more. >> reporter: president trump's border czar in texas saying he will carry out trump's plan to secure the border and deport undocumented immigrants, starting with criminals.

>> let me be clear, there will be a mass deportation because we just finished a mass immigration crisis at the border. >> reporter: after 10 million illegal crossings in the last few years, tom homan says he plans to take the handcuffs off i.c.e. but a major question is how he will get the manpower to do it. >> do you believe local authority should help enforce federal immigration laws? >> oh, of course. >> reporter: the sheriff of hartford county, maryland, one of dozens of states part of i.c.e.'s section 287 program delegating funds to state and local law enforcement. >> this isn't showing papers on the street. they are arrested for something they have committed against the citizens of our community and are held accountable for being in the country illegally. >> reporter: one of his deputies showed us how trained corrections officers can look through i.c.e.'s database and detain suspects suspected of

other crimes for 48 hours if i see wants to pick them up to deport them. >> do you anticipate this program ramping up in the next administration? >> i believe so. i believe we will be busy. >> reporter: the immigration debate exploding in this county. >> i was angry. >> reporter: rachel was murdered last year, police say by an undocumented immigrant released into the u.s. >> i want people to be documented. that's all. i don't want anymore life lost. >> reporter: still, the 280 7g program gives local police an unlawful excuse to help the poor people. >> this hurts families and leads to worse public safety outcomes. trusting communities and the

economy. >> does this amount to racial profiling? >> no, not at all. everyone is screened. >> we are not going to cooperate in any way in that effort. >> reporter: denver's mayor threatened to post local police at the county line to block federal immigration officers. >> we have no plan to do that. we really hope we don't ever have to do that. >> reporter: trump's new border czar with this response. >> don't test us. >> back with us, matthew dowd and mark leibovich. the immigration issue was a big one during the campaign. it was obviously big in 2016 too. a lot of folks in this country feel it is too loose and that includes people in blue states and blue cities now. if you look at the map the way the election turned, the shift was almost everywhere and it was to the right. i'm wondering, mark, if that had to do with what we saw from the texas governor, the florida

governor, by taking the migrants who crossed the border in texas and either busing them or flying them to places like new york city or san francisco or chicago. >> well, i mean, a lot of this was predicated on political grandstanding. immigration for as much of a front and center problem as it is and always raised among the top two or three in what people are most concerned about one of the reasons is it is such a point of emphasis especially from donald trump on down from the leadership of the republican party. having said that, it is a very easy issue to talk about when you are out of office and you know trying to score political points. they won the election. they won largely. well, not largely, but immigration was seen as a very emotional issue for them. execution is now -- i mean, the

watchword. there are all kinds of complications and logistics and chaos this will bring to bear in trying to come about -- or trying to bring about the kind of change donald trump has promised. we outlined right there in this report what happens if varying jurisdictions and varying enforcement groups come in conflict and leaders come in conflict? obviously stay tuned but it could be an extremely ugly, messy, and chaotic situation. >> i wonder if they want the conflict. i wonder if they want confrontation with blue governors and blue mayors. they want to have that fight because it is a political winner for them if they look like they are trying to do something and the democrats are stopping them. >> katy, i agree 1000%. they don't want to expel 11 million undocumented people

because they know and everybody knows and deep down even donald trump knows deep down it would decimate the economy. it would decimate the egg industry, the construction industry, the hospitality industry, the healthcare industry. sending 11 million people many of which working and doing jobs americans want, samaritan citizens want, i don't think they want that for the economy but they want the symbolism of a confrontation and i always believed in the aftermath of what donald trump would do. he was not going to deport 11 million people. he would make a few examples, show the base, show the republicans, oh, i am doing something, but not in any huge way, but enough to get into a fight with a democratic mayor, a democratic governor, try to expel 500 people or 1000 people at some point in time and that

talking point. i think that is really what he wants. he doesn't want to get rid of 11 million people. absolutely he can't do that because of the economy but if he does want the symbolic victory and symbolic confrontation. >> what about at the congressional level? he very famously stopped the immigration reform bill, the bipartisan one in the senate from going anywhere and made personal calls saying don't do this. i want to be the one to deliver this win. is there any expectation donald trump and the republican congress will bring up immigration reform in this next session, mark? >> you know, it could happen. there is -- you could contort your mind in a way you could see trump scaling back his rhetoric, seeing the issue differently now that he is in charge, now that he has one term left. i guess there is a nixon and

china way of looking at this. if he has this hammerlock on the republican party and if there is some version or maybe even a slightly more, you know, conservative version about the tales they have agreed to earlier this year, as long as he has his name on it, that deal will get done. again, this is assuming a mindset of donald trump that he hasn't really seen to this point. at the same time if he does pivot to where he is not in constant campaign mode, sales mode, and thinking of governing accomplishments, we could see something. >> watch congress. this is not just a campaign issue. you will see congress take something up. it is a republican congress, a republican president. they have a lot of power to make big moves on the issue of immigration to try to fix the issue. mark leibovich, matthew dowd, thank you so much. we will be back with a bit of

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stranger on a text telling her grandson what time to show up for thanksgiving dinner. 17-year-old jamal hinton answering, you are not my grandma. can i still get a plate though? >> i went over and i've gone over every year and here we are today. i feel like ever since the first year, we were family. >> we spent hours in the restaurant talking about everything under the sun. there was no generation gap whatsoever. because of him, i see things a lot different. >> reporter: they text, talk, get together, lean on each other. >> she is someone that i can call. she helps me with my happiness and my pride and the good things i have going on in life. she will make me feel even better about them. she's amazing. >> reporter: they have been through highs and lows. wanda lost her husband earlier

in the pandemic and this year she was diagnosed with breast cancer. >> it has been a journey and an awakening for me. i can see what's important now and i appreciate every day. >> is this friendship one of the things you appreciate? >> oh, you better believe it. jamal taught me so much about friendship. >> reporter: jamal and his girlfriend have supported wanda through her treatment. >> i was always getting a text message like, how are you doing? what can we do for you? >> reporter: last month when jamal posted about her diagnosis, more than 8 million people saw it. >> that was something we could do, just have everyone support her with love. >> what i loved most, the message were like, hey, wanda, thank you so much for your message. i will get my mammogram now because of you. >> reporter: wanda is feeling better but this year hosting thanksgiving would be a bit too

much, so for the first time jamal is planning to host wanda. >> what's on the menu? >> we've got turkey, fried turkey, smoked turkey, three turkeys and everyone will bring their favorite side dish. >> i love it! >> the conversation is the best. >> reporter: a holiday all about gratitude. >> jamal will always be part of my family. every once in a while i will try to give him advice on something he is going through, yet he gives me even more wise advice than i give him so i am very, very grateful that he is in my life. >> i feel like if i never met her, i would have a piece of me missing in a weird way. i would have never known what that piece was, but i feel that piece of me is filled, so i am just happy that we got to meet and that we share this bond that we have now. >> i love it.

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hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. the country may be about to participate in a great