hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. the country may be about to participate in a great big maga

science experiment. donald trump rounding out his picks to lead the federal government's top public health agencies last night. choosing dr. jay bhattacharya to lead the national institutes of health. the nation's leading medical research agency, an institution that most of the time works quietly behind the scenes, but is an incredibly important part of our federal government. the nih has a $48 billion budget, and is the single largest public funder of biomedical research in the world. the nih is behind some of the biggest scientific breakthroughs of the 20th century, cracking the genetic code, for instance, vaccines for hepatitis and hpv, and even those mrna vaccines that made it possible for the world to emerge from the covid-19 pandemic. work done by the nih touches practically every aspect of our lives. research it supports has led to clean air guidelines and the

nutrition facts that are on just about everything we eat, all the food. to leave the nih, donald trump has chosen a man that pushes a policy that experts said was unscientific and would lead to millions of deaths. nbc news says, bhattacharya gained national attention in october 2020 when he wrote the barrington exploration, calling on public health officials to roll back covid lockdowns. the proposal release before vaccines became available advocated for herd immunity, where a large enough share of a population has been exposed to an infectious disease, but it is unlikely to keep spreading. the idea of herd immunity was met with furious pushback by medical experts. >> if you let infections rip as it were, and say, let everybody get infected, that's going to be

able to get infected and we'll have herd immunity, quite frankly that's nonsense. and anybody who knows anything about epidemiology will tell you that that is nonsense and very dangerous because what will happen is that if you do that, by the time you get to herd immunity, you will have killed a lot of people that would have been avoidable. >> these people, just, i don't think they know what they're talking about. they really do believe the idea here is let's get everybody infected and, you know, we have robust debates about whether one or two or 6 million people would die from a herd ity approach, but everybody agrees it would be awful. it is a terrible strategy. >> so that guy, herd immunity guy, well, even at the time he got donald trump's attention. watch. >> it would go away without the vaccine, george. but it is going to go away a lot faster -- >> go away without the vaccine? >> sure, over a period of time, sure, with time. >> and many deaths.

>> and you'll develop -- you'll develop herd -- like a herd mentality, it is going to be herd developed and that's going to happen. that will all happen. but with a vaccine, i think it will go away very quickly. >> we believe what he meant to say was herd immunity, not the herd mentality. we think. and just months after he made those comments, he is days after trump went to walter reed hospital for covid where his own situation, his own covid infection was so serious he had to receive supplemental oxygen treatments. the white house officially embraced the great barrington declaration. bhattacharya's nomination at nih, take the antivaxxer and conspiracy theorist known around the world rfk, the head of hhs and then take dr. oz, who is known in the past to have pedaled unproven health treatments to viewers and fans to be the centers for medicare

and medicaid services administrator and a picture emerges of a pretty radical departure when it comes to public health, not just from what we have now under the biden administration, but the first trump administration as well. an op-ed in "the new york times" puts it like this, quote, trump left office amid a virulent backlash against scientific and medical expertise, marked by sharp declines in public trust, especially among republicans. the administration that began operation warp speed to develop vaccines to defeat the worst pandemic in a century ended in a epidemic of vaccine skepticism. what we now have is an agenda driven by skepticism and antielitism blends familiar conservative and libertarian ideas with the suspicion of expert power once more associated with the left. the result is the uniquely american brand of populism that has the potential to fundamentally reshape national politics. donald trump choosing conspiracy

theorists and skeptics of public health expertise and science and what it means for all of us in the second trump presidency is where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. critical care physician professor of pediatrics and pediatric disaster response expert dr. michael anderson is here. also joining us, "washington post" national health reporter dan diamond is here. with me at the table, president of the national action network, host of "politics nation" on msnbc, the reverend al sharpton is here. dr. anderson, i'm first going to ask you of all of these picks which one worries you the most and why. >> yeah, i think the tension level continues to rise among physicians and public health officials, among my friends and colleagues that work in the federal government, and among families, we can talk about that. i am so proud, and you did such a nice summary of the nih and the very, you know, quiet work they do. i was smiling from ear to ear when you talked about mrna-based

vaccines. those helped save millions of lives in this country and across the world. and the mrna-based vaccine will save lives in the future, because despite some people saying give the infectious disease researchers four years off, they're going to be other pandemics, other outbreaks. so the nih is so vital, we need a leader that is visionary, that can help us move forward, not litigate things from the past, that can see the threats coming, and in a very self-centered way as a pediatric advocate knows that the needs of children have to be front and center as we think about nih funding and nih programs. so i'm just concerned that we need to have a very scientifically vigorous pick to lead the nih. >> dr. anderson, i want to ask you about -- i feel like the job is different now, right? i think you were here to help our viewers make sense of the information dr. fauci was

offering when he was in the government and trump was president because trump sometimes contradicted it, but fauci was there, dr. shah also a familiar face to our viewers, was in the biden administration, and it was a matter of, i think, making sure people knew what we were supposed to do now, right? five years, four years into covid. i want to ask you a serious question about what happens if people simply hear vaccines as the two sides argument. i have a 1-year-old, we're at the pediatrician every month for shots. if suddenly the whole country hears a fire hose of two sides of pediatric vaccines, what happens? >> yeah, i worry about that every day. and i keep falling back on my terrific friends that are pediatricians and public health officials, mostly in the private sector, right? i hear from my friends all the time that office visits now, there is so much misinformation

out there, there is so much garbage information out there, vaccines save lives, they're safe and effective. i have enough gray hair to remember losing patients from varicella or from influenza b, which had been wiped out mostly because of vaccines. so to answer your question, i think that void is going to be need to be filled by pediatricians, by the american academy of pediatrics, by folks coming on your program and spreading what is called ed se and spreading the truth. the thing i worry about, these medical professionals, nurses, nurse practitioners, doctors, they're bloody stretched as it is taking care of patients and now having to carry the torch of being information bearers for the country, that's almost too much to think about. >> it is also completely dysfunctional and not how it's supposed to work and there are real access issues. not everyone can get a pediatrician on the phone or has

a regular pediatrician, they're at a clinic where they see whoever is available when they're in crisis. i want to show all of you who some of these folks are. here is -- here is mr. bhattacharya on vaccines. >> this is an issue of conscience for many young people. i think this kind of forced vaccination is actually very, very harmful to public health. >> we closed our schools. we closed our businesses. we closed our churches on the idea that it was necessary for our health. but i knew for a fact that that was a lie. >> the lockdowns that we have engaged in, first, the severe quarantines and now the continuing lockdowns and extensive set of lockdowns we are reimposing, those have been extremely damaging where the

population at large. >> i want to broaden this out to include you, dan diamond. and i want to show -- i want to show, because bhattacharya was speaking at a kennedy event, it looked like, i want to show you rfk, kennedy himself, on vaccines as well. >> i do believe that autism does come from vaccines. covid-19, there is an argument it is ethnically targeted. covid-19 attacks certain races disproportionately. covid-19 is targeted to attack caucasians and black people, the people who are most immune are chinese and askenazi jews. >> if that's not enough, let me

show you dr. oz. >> i recognize that oftentimes they don't have the scientific muster to present as fact. my job, i feel, on the show, is to be a cheerleader for the audience. when they don't think they have hope, they don't think they can make it happen, i look everywhere, clueing alternative healing traditions for any evidence that might be supportive to them. >> where are we heading? >> i think we're heading into a new direction, nicolle. there has never been a healthcare team assembled like this before. i covered the federal health government for years, i talked to people going back to the reagan administration, we have never had someone like rfk jr., a vaccine skeptic, potentially overseeing the nation's health agencies which control vaccines. there has never been someone like dr. oz, a tv doctor, who pushes supplements, who could be in charge of the medicare and medicaid and affordable care act programs. there is a name i haven't heard mentioned yet, dave weldon, former congressman, in line to

be the head of cdc. he's also someone who raised questions about vaccines before. so when i talk to folks in public health, they are alarmed about the potential particularly for vaccines, but also for what the information these federal agencies will be giving to the public would be. i should also say there is less trust in public health than there used to be. the coronavirus pandemic weakened support for institutions and that helped lead to the rise of some of these other voices and they have their own devoted fans who are looking for alternate messages. that's one reason why rfk jr. and some of the other folks, their messages took hold the past couple of years. >> what is the forecast for the infrastructure of these agencies, which are formed around the pursuit of science and truth. >> i think it depends on the agency. you mentioned earlier and dr. anderson talked about this too the questions about vaccines and what could robert f. kennedy

jr. as head of the health agencies do on vaccines. co- he could do quite a lot. he could slow down the approval of new vaccines, ask for more data reviews of vaccines being looked at, put allies on to commissions that make recommendations about vaccines, which could change the message coming from the federal government, if there are schools, local officials trying to decide whether to require childhood vaccines, the federal government could start issuing new recommendations that clash with that. so i think that's one big focus. some of the other agencies, nicolle, we're still not totally sure. dr. oz, he ran for senate two years ago, he didn't get into the technical weeds of some of the ngs he might be doing if he's confirmed to run cms. dr. bhattacharya talked about what he would do at nih. he wants to change some of its functions, take power away from the deputy directors like former official dr. fauci who was there for decades and accumulated a lot of soft power. so, kind of depends on the agency how much might change. but overall it is a very

different approach, much more focused on chronic disease, much less on infectious disease. >> i understand this shift in focus, but there is no scientific evidence that, quote, autism does come from vaccines. i mean, what do the agencies do about flatout lies being told by the people who head them? >> that is a totally debunked claim, you're right, that autism causes vaccines. robert f. kennedy jr. has been told it was debunked, he repeated it anyway. i don't know what the clash would look like. we saw some of this in the first trump administration, senior political appointees, sometimes donald trump himself, sharing messages about, say, hydroxychloroquine to treat coronavirus. no evidence that it was an effective treatment and dr. fauci and other public health officials were in the awkward position of having to contradict the president of the united states. you might see a lot more of that in the years to come.

>> what could go wrong? david jolly, here is senator patty murray, the current chair of the health education labor pensions committee talking about rfk today. >> let's take rfk. he is someone who is a conspiracy theorist when it comes to vaccines. we have decades of experience in this country knowing our kids are vaccinated so they don't get polio, mumps, measles, rubella, serious implications for healthcare for the future of our country. not vetting these candidates and having the american public know that they can trust the person who is overseeing our health to make sure that we don't fire scientists who are doing research, that we don't tell people that they're not going to have their insurance covered for vaccines anymore, or that our kids are going to be unsafe or the next pandemic that comes down the line we don't have researchers in place to make sure we protect people's health. every one of these nominations

that you mentioned need to be vetted, we need to know their background, we need to know that they have the right policies. >> so, david jolly, i am open to hope, i guess, if that's the word, that the senate republicans will vet trump's appointees. my ninth year covering the trump story, i worry that the gaetz withdrawal may be the only one they really participate in torpedoing. so if we head to an america in which rfk jr. tops the health agencies, should we right now not fail to imagine what that means, a new fight in america against polio, a new fight in america against measles, a country in which kids, our kids, have their classmates lose their lives to these diseases thought of as eradicated?

>> nicolle, it is a much more dangerous world under donald trump. that was the clarion call and the warning of so many people who opposed him. i think you hit on it, though, exactly right. the words of patty murray could have been the same words of republican senators, not too long ago. the question is will we see those words from a republican senator at the confirmation hearings in january? i don't know that we will. what we are living through politically right now is the evolution of the republican party from the traditional less government party to then what the tea party game, the no government party, and under trump, the government is the enemy. what you see now in the second trump administration is kind of the vengeance tour, the attacks against government, and in some ways because it fits the new ideology of republicans, but in other ways because in donald trump's view, the reason he lost the first time was because the deep state got it all wrong. and we know the difference between 16 and 24. in '16, he surrounded himself with people that either had

government experience or came from industry or much more traditional picks and the whole theme was surround this chaos candidate with steadier hands. that is not the 24th case. surround the chaos candidate with people who believe in chaos. that's where we get in a dangerous spot. whether because on the world stage when it comes to national security or at home because of the health risks, we are getting the ethos, the true ethos right now of donald trump. are republican senators so far along this trail with him? did they go along with the nominations? it appears so. those words from patty murray could be the words from mitch mcconnell or lindsey graham if they wise up. it is going to be a test of their mettle and fitness as well at these hearings. >> rev, i want to bring you in on this, but quickly before we go to break, do you think that we have in some ways sort of short shrifted the coverage of trump?

we should have been talking. i think even people that cover the trump campaign closely may not have thought he actually would put rfk and all these other science deniers atop these scientific agencies. do you think people understand that they voted for folks who may make it more confusing to vaccinate children? >> i think that most people, including many that voted for trump, did not realize that. and i think that both those that were for trump and opposed were more in the personality of trump and what he would do in terms of governance and should have been talking about, we're talking about putting antivaxxers over healthcare, we're talking about putting people under investigation for sex trafficking over the justice department. if the more we had laid out on those of us that were afraid of a trump presidency, what the presidency meant rather than just dealing with the personality of donald trump,

then i think people would have said, wait a minute, because now you look at your kid that now is being exposed to measles or mumps and particularly those of us that work in community where there is a disproportionate impact. i remember during covid, we teamed up in harlem with national action network and andre, the chef. we fed a million people. people were coming out to get food and running back because they couldn't go shopping. this is real stuff. and i think that's beyond did trump say something that was bombastic last night. >> i want to pick up on this. i think this is a moment, a national moment that requires immense humility and one of the things we have to recognize we failed to do is to have these conversations before the election, because i don't think people voted for an america where you're having to tell middle school kids that someone has polio, you know. i think this is next level for a lot of people, but those of us

who have been watching could have pulled this string months ago. on that note, i'm going to ask all of you to stick around. also ahead for us, top campaign staffers for vice president kamala harris speaking together for the very first time on the challenges they faced as a campaign leadership team in what was the shortest general election campaign in american history. and a look at what might come next for the democratic party and for vice president kamala harris. plus, the battle over defense secretary pick pete hegseth and what message his possible elevation to the top position at the pentagon and in our government sends to survivors of sexual abuse. michigan prosecutor, now attorney general dana nestle will join us ahead. all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. te house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. part of the irresistible scent collection from gain. black friday football on prime is back. touchdown! the raiders.

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and we're back with dr. anderson, dan diamond, david jolly and the reverend al sharpton. dr. anderson, jump in on what this looks like if we face another public health crisis. >> i was just kind of mulling that over. you know, we have learned so much, once again back to mrna-based vaccines, amazing, life-saving vaccines. and i want to double click on one thing my fellow panelists have said. vaccines do not cause autism. that has been debunked. vaccines adults. they cause children to go on and move on. i held children that have died

from varicella or from influenza or from pneumococcal meningitis and to think of us going backwards and having those diseases rear their ugly heads again is just heart breaking. fast-forward to another novel virus with an outbreak, it is going to cause once again a massive federal response, mobilizing agencies quickly, and engaging the public with a message and hopefully with trust, and to start that journey at a time where we're moving backwards in progress, backwards in research, backwards in trust, like, that is so scary, i can't even fathom it. once again, keeping the children at the center of all that we do, which is kind of what i do for a living, we have got to do better, we got to really base our faith in science and hopefully as you talked about, we can find other messengers to carry this forward. >> rev, i just want to level set here. a narrative has set in that the election was determined by the

cost of eggs. the tariffs that trump ran on publicly will raise the cost of eggs, 69% of all americans understand that. narrative has set in that in post covid global politics, all the incumbents have been tossed out, it is also true that donald trump's botching of covid and his proliferation of this disinformation cost him, frankly, a second term in 2020. what do you think is going on? >> i think that donald trump was able to bait the opposition in large part into fighting his fight and that was over how outrageous he was as a personality, and not deal with the policies and what it would mean to the average person. i think when people say that people are concerned about the price of gas and the price of

groceries, that may be true, but they also are concerned about themselves and their lives and their children's lives. and we not only should have seen the opposition, talk about the price of gas, the price of bread more and other issues, but your health, your children, what we talk about today. that wasn't even an issue. and who donald trump was befriending and why was he -- he ran with robert kennedy during the election. this was no surprise. and i think in many ways when you let the opponent, i used to be a big boxing fan, when you let the opponent set the rhythm of a race, and you're reacting to his foolishness rather than say, wait a minute, let's look at what he's really talking about, then we begin to see a lot of people would say, well, i may not agree on this issue, but on this, i can't sacrifice even risking my child being exposed to polio or to measles or

whatever the case may be. and i think that they missed the boat on that. i think that when we allowed him to frame the discussion, that's where we started seeing the erosion and even then he didn't win by that much, but just enough. >> david jolly, donald trump's failures to do the most basic elements of the job of president, to protect the people he represented are known the world over. we had some of the worst covid outcomes the world over. in part because of the disinformation. and some of these folks were allies in his efforts to -- i remember the -- i remember where i was when he first tweeted liberate michigan, liberate another state and it incited real fears of violence in this country against things that his own government was recommending. in some ways at least this time

we all row in the same direction. do you think people contemplated what that direction is? >> i love this question because i kind of agree with your premise if more people had understood that donald trump's view of public health, he wants more people to get sick, because then we'll have herd immunity against some of these things, that creates a greater fear than the collapse of democracy, maybe, maybe not. but i actually think, you know, when he mistook herd immunity for herd mentality in the beginning sound bite, i actually wonder if there is a herd mentality that supports his position on this. i don't know that it would have changed the election if we had told people that, hey, donald trump's theory of vaccines is now let your kids get sick because i think there are enough people now who believe the alternative facts and in fact i guess they're not even facts, but are antiscience and antivaccine and antipublic health to worry about their own freedom, not the collective public health. nicolle, you know, my wife and i

have young children, recent school carnival, a bunch of kids got sick, we go to the pediatrician, the pediatrician says there is nothing you can do about it, it has to run its course, children's tylenol, whatever. i was in a conversation with another parent that i really respect and they just casually recommended, you know what works really well is x, y, z. i tell my wife, they recommended x, y, z. i look it up. it says do not take this, it can cause neurological damage, it can do all these bad things. but the herd mentality of these alternative treatments that are not approved clinically and could be dangerous to your health, the whole joe rogan demographic within the country, i don't know that trying to tell them that what donald trump is doing and rfk jr. is doing could be dangerous to your family health, i don't know that's a convincing argument to them. i hope it is. but i don't know. this will be a very dangerous and defining four years if we see donald trump's public health

administration look like it looks today. >> dan, just give us an example of where science may meet some of these personalities first. what are some of the things in the pipeline for some of these agencies? >> well, nicolle, i'm happy to speak to that. i wanted to challenge what i heard some of the panelists say, which i do think trump and rfk jr. ran on health. they had the make america healthy again campaign. i have spoken to voters, my colleagues have talked to people, who held their nose to vote for donald trump because they believe that robert f. kennedy jr. was going to address things like childhood illness, chronic disease. democrats strug gled to get ther healthcare messages through sometimes. some of the messages they wanted to do got opposed within their party. the biden administration wanted to crack down on menthol cigarettes, take them off the market, your guest reverend sharpton didn't want them to do that, he opposed it. we wrote about it at the post and what it might mean for the

agencies. i think trump and rfk were able to capitalize on that. in terms of what is in the hopper, the biden administration this week put forward -- it looks highly unlikely that a trump administration would finalize that proposal and make it real, so i think that's one immediate example of how the two administrations differ. >> last word, rev? >> i think that there were some forces that had disagree -- i disagreed with taking off any menthols until we knew that we were not going back to stop and frisk. i'm against any cigarette smoking. i don't want to mischaracterize our position. but i think that there was not enough out front advocacy on some of the areas of health that the campaign could have done that brings it home now that you actually have these people in

charge. and i think by distorting people's positions gets in the way of saying some basic stuff like this -- these are medical facts. and we got to deal with them. >> dr. anderson, the last word, what is a hopeful sign that you have for us on this wednesday before thanksgiving? >> there is hope. there is a lot of wailing and nashing of teeth and i may be in that club every once and a while. i think about the last ten years of progress in childhood illness, we're curing more kids with cancer we're giving gene therapy for sickle cell anemia, using artificial intelligence to reach rural communities, telemedicine to reach rural kids. there is amazing growth in child health that we can, you know, sort of harness and grow. we have to get over some basic trust over the next couple of years. but it is just a very hopeful time for children's health overall. >> dr. michael anderson and dan

diamond, for your great body of reporting, thank you for sharing it with us. ahead for us, new reporting on vice president kamala harris and her plans for what comes next as her top campaign staff begins to reassess the party's future. that conversation is next. reasss future that conversation is next.

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it. and it feels heavy. and i just have to remind you, don't you ever let anybody take your power from you. you have the same power that you did before november 5th. and you have the same purpose that you did. and you have the same ability to engage and inspire. >> for vice president kamala harris and the country more broadly, it's one foot in front of the other, citing five people in her inner circle, politico reports, harris will explore possible paths forward with family over the weekend, having instructed her advisers to keep her options open. that could include a presidential campaign in 2028 or run for california governor in two years. this week her top aides appeared on the pod save america podcast. and addressed how the party should position itself going

forward. that includes in their estimation and telling focusing less on debates over social issues and more on raising wages, building careers, and paying for infant and elderly care. take a listen. >> these are the type of issues that aren't squishy or masculine but they are real life. and i think if there is one conversation that we should have as democrats, we got to get back to those issues because those are our issues. we're the ones that find the solutions to those and, you know, and my coming up in politics, we're the only ones that cared about them. we have to get back to those bread and butter type issues that change people's lives, even that 35-year-old man who finds the masculine rhetoric and tiktoks and youtubers appealing still has to pay his kids' child care bills. so, it is a choice that we have to make. >> joining our conversation

msnbc political analyst tim miller, former rnc spokesman, now the host of "the bulwark podcast." tim, i don't know how much of this you got to listen to, but they were -- they were pretty frank about the challenges they faced. i wonder what you think of stephanie's point there? >> i listened to all of it on the flight to my in-laws' house. so happy thanksgiving to everybody. that's where i'm coming at you from. >> happy thanksgiving. >> and, look, the most -- i think stephanie's point is right about the democrats will probably be wise to try as much as possible to focus on bread and butter issues and talk about the economic help they can provide to working class people. there is a big challenge in the media environment where talking about child care doesn't get as much attention as talking about all of the nonsense that donald trump floated the zone with and i think they were overwhelmed

about a media environment a bit. and kamala harris had that message at times and gave a whole speech on that. the next day called trump a fascist, everybody talked about her calling trump a fascist because jake tapper asked her about it. i think there is a challenge to focus on issues. to me, the biggest takeaway from the discussion was this, the kamala harris lost about 3% to 5% more ground in the rest of the country than she did in the battleground states. she only lost a couple points from where biden was in the battleground states and got more raw votes than biden did in four of the seven battleground states. it was the rest of the country that moved a great deal more. so that message to me is that, like, any review of all this that looks at campaign tactics is kind of missing the point. there was a big move towards trump in the country, and in areas where the campaign wasn't being run on, you know, wasn't door knockers, wasn't tv ads, i think that is concerning to democrats and so to me that

added explained by, either, one, about -- two, people upset about the income of the president or three something fundamental about the democratic brand they need to think about fixing and refreshing before 2028. those questions are the ones that matter and democrats should hash through over the next couple of years. obsessing over random campaign tactics missed the point. >> rev, let me show you a little bit more of this interview. here is david plouffe. >> obviously i think in milwaukee, you know, just to use that as an example, we hit our turnout targets, fell a little short in philly and detroit. that's not good. that's part of the equation. you got to couple that with dominating in the middle. not just winning it a little. we have to dominate the moderate vote. and i think as we look ahead to '26 and '28, particularly where you have seen drift among noncollege voters generally,

particularly those of color specifically, you know, we obviously have to get some of that back. we can't afford any more erosion there. the math just doesn't [ bleep ] work, okay. i don't think this is a permanent realignment, but the point is to win battleground states, yes, of course you have to maximize your turnout and vote share among liberal voters if you're democrat, that was a huge focus. you've got to win the center. >> we have to dominate the moderate vote. there was a piece out this week about the obama coalition and some of the myths i think have erased the fact that he dominated the moderate vote and he dominated it by doing things that were sometimes unpopular with his coalition and his base. he deported more people during his two terms than have ever been deported from this country. i was recently reminded there were immigration protesters outside the white house just about every day of his presidency. he decided to govern in a way that would be results oriented

and what he took to the country to win re-election was a record of stuff, but helped him dominate the moderate vote. how do democrats get back to that? >> i think that you have to have the courage of saying this is where i am, and not just react to those on the right or the left of your party and the extremes. but that this is where i am and this is how i will govern. and that's what i think barack obama did. i remember when he was running in '08 and '07, we had a police killing in new york, and the -- in '06 and into '07, shawn bell and senator then obama who was running called me and said i'm not a march, i'm not this, you do that, but he said i will legislate certain things that will really protect people. and people accept that. i think people accept that you may not be as forward as they are if you're transparent and say that.

what they don't want to be is ignored. and they don't want to act as though that if you build a moderate base, you're doing it at their expense. you understand them, you can incorporate everybody. but a lot of people are my way or the highway and i think that's the way you turn voters off. there were enough votes that -- of moderate blacks and other people of color that could have turned milwaukee into a higher turnout in my opinion and turned around wisconsin and pennsylvania with philadelphia. i think that you can't go so far out of bounds that you lose your base. but i think you can expand and energize your base. >> why do you think she underperformed in those places that you just said? >> i think a lot of it is it that a lot of her advisers and i think she ran a great campaign, you couldn't have had a better candidate, but a lot of her advisers was telling her not to deal with those trusted voices, those on the ground in the

community, you still cannot ignore those sororities, those from a trn fraternities, those churches, because those people are the voters. when you play one segment, i'm going for the youth vote, the youth vote is important, but don't lose grandma because grandma is going to vote. >> grandma cares about crime and grandma cares about the cost of things. >> grandma cares about the price of butter and grandma cares about education of her grandchildren. so, i think that rather than choose one or the other, it should be all encompassing. and you have a unique person in kamala harris that could have represented that because that's what she is. that's who she is. that's what she was as the prosecutor in california. so it wasn't like they had to redo her, they just had to promote that expanded view of her in my opinion. >> everyone is sticking around. we'll bring david jolly back in on the other side. don't go anywhere. g david jolly on the other side. don't go anywhere.

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your small monthly donation of just $10. could be the reason a child in crisis survives. show them they're not alone. please call or go online to givetosave.org to help save lives. on the trans attack, one, obviously, it was a very effective ad in the end. i ultimately don't believe it was about the issue of trans. it made her seem out of touch and it was sort of a pseudoeconomic ad underneath it, he's saying you're going to pay for it with taxpayer money and it was in her own words. >> that was clinton fulks, campaign manager.

your thoughts? >> i'm wrestling with the theory that this may have been an unwinnable race for democrats period. vice president harris was a fantastic candidate, may not have mattered who the candidate was. if you look at the post pandemic world economy, leading countries around the world, whether measured by being a leading economy or developed democracy in the last two years have thrown out their incumbents. and it may just be that season where a biden, a harris, a shapiro, anybody, could not have toppled a donald trump simply because we're in a post pandemic world economy. but the other theory that i wrestle with as well is that the paradox that democrats face is they are often if not always burdened with having to be the responsible party, when republicans refuse to be. so on the trans issue, it is not that democrats are casing to embrace the trans lifestyle, it is just that they respect it and understand that trans people deserve the same defense of liberty and personal freedom that every other american does

when republicans aren't willing to give it to them. on the economy, and on taxes, consider the message of biden and harris. if the family makes less than $400,000, your taxes will not go up. because they're being responsible about the debt and the deficit. republicans are walking around saying, we're going to give you a tax cut anywhere you want it, from corporate taxes to no tax on tips, no tax on overtime, you name it, we're cutting your taxes. biden and harris were saying, they're staying the same, don't worry, they won't go up. on regulations, republicans say we won't have lockdowns, no lockdowns for healthcare, no regulations on labor or healthcare or energy or the environment. because you deserve the personal freedom. democrats are saying, government has a responsibility to provide for the collective for all people by putting responsible regulations in place. that then holds the mirror up to us as a culture. are we willing to recognize we have to be responsible as well because the paradox that democrats face, they're bearing the burden now of being the

responsible political party at a time when so many americans are embracing irresponsibility and donald trump is feeding the affirmation to those americans right now who are saying, i don't care about the country, i don't care about my neighbor, i just care about me and what you're going to do for me and they're hearing it from donald trump and i think they're missing it from democrats. >> tim miller? >> can i be the devil on everybody's shoulder the day before thanksgiving? >> please. >> maybe the democrats shouldn't be the responsible grown-ups for a year or so. i just think something to think about because to be -- back in 2012, part of that rnc autopsy, we suggested how the republicans should be more compassionate and expand how we talk to immigrants and minorities and gay people and women and donald trump did the opposite of that and won. so sometimes all the geniuses on the shows don't know what the right thing to do is in the future. but here's one thing we do know, that we went through about five, six, seven, eight straight change elections in a row.

and if the country and the people that aren't as engaged and aren't following politics every day are unhappy with how they're being governed, they're happy to throw the bums out and donald trump planned a lot of things that i think would be disastrous for this country. and i think that there is a big swath of voters out there that might decide to just throw that bum out one more time if they're given the opportunity to do so. and to me, i think there is a lot of reflection the democrats could do and a big conversation about the right way forward, but donald trump failing is really probably the easiest path back to success for the democrats. >> i mean, tim, just quickly, the idea of this earnest and i totally respect it, it is what you and i used to do on campaigns, the last time the republicans lost they couped. the asymmetry is stark now as it has been in nine years. >> yeah. to be putting on this -- how

many times did i go around and i'm happy to do it, i feel it, i feel shame, but it has been a decade. the democrats do this, they whip themselves, they're, like, oh, if we would have done this better. that's not what the republicans are doing. they're not apologetic about it and they try a coup, and the next day they went back and tried to do everything possible to make joe biden a failed president. i'm not saying the democrats should be anihilist but there is something to be learned from that. >> be a mirror, right, show the country what they have ushered in. tim miller, david jolly, the reverend al sharpton, thank you so much for spending time with us and happy thanksgiving. on that note, next for us, michigan's ag speaking out about many of donald trump's picks to serve in his cabinet and what those picks may signal to survivors of sexual assault. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a very short break. deadline: white house" starts after a very short break.

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i better use some tech tax just in case i am kissing her. i'm attracted to beautiful people. it's like a magnet. i don't even wait. when you are a star, you can do anything. >> hi, everyone. we all know what he says next. we won't play it today and spirit of the holiday week. weeks after that video went public for the very first time, it sent a strong signal across the country. sexual assault was not disqualifying and was no longer a political redline. it was something politically

speaking could be minimized and joked about by the accused. now eight years later, the same signal is being amplified, projected out into this country. this time through trump himself not an adjudicated sexual abuser and his cabinets picks. his picks to head the department of defense, hhs, and attorney general all have sexual assault allegations levied against them and his choice to run the education department has been sued for enabling sexual assault. over all these choices donald trump has made and his decision to pick them and stand by them, the allegations made public of already had a profound effect. attorney general dana nessel writes in an op-ed that trump's picks show disdain for victims of sexual assault. she writes, quote, these nominations reduce the often

devastating trauma that affects victims throughout the rest of their lives to an unfortunate public relations hurdle to be overcome by powerful people being lifted further up our nation's power structures. the white house asks the people, the press, and the united states congress to overlook or ignore these accusations as mistakes or minor details balanced against a nominee's ideologies or resumes they beg you to ignore the lifelong suffering of their victims and so many others out there feel justice is outside their reach. specifically when it comes to pete hegseth to lead the pentagon, our friend amy mcgrath asked if he had the courage to vote against the confirmation and rights, quote, hegseth's public persona as a champion of traditional values contrast with his actions. multiple public affairs and allegations of sexual assault suggest serious character flaws.

as our military combats sexual assault as a problem what does it say if we elevate this man to oversee this issue? he wears a white supremacist tattoo on his body. an officer or enlisted service member would not be promoted with such a background. how could this man earn their respect? his deeply controversial past, extremist political views should disqualify him out right . the message being sent by trump and his cabinet picks is where we start the hour with the authors of those op-ed's, michigan attorney general dana nessel and retired colonel and founder of democratic majority action pack amy mcgrath is here. also joining us, my colleague senior editor michele norris. let me read a little bit of your peace. from 2017 to 2020 trump and his cabinet issued rules to make it harder to hold sexual assailants

on campuses, stopped rulemaking that would have addressed sexual assault against members of healthcare professions, increased rights to sexual assault victims in the military, and threaten to withhold sexual assault prevention funding from several cities over disagreement with those cities' policies. say a little bit more about what these picks say . >> i mean, it is pretty clear that we don't care about the crime of sexual assault and we don't care about the survivors who have to live with it. it is really concerning and what we know about the policies moving forward as far as the first version of the trump administration is they will do everything in their power to defund the crime victims act, the violence against women act, and it will impact our ability to investigate and prosecute sexual abuse crimes, sexual assault crimes, as well as

necessary things like counseling for survivors. in a number of ways, you know, we work hard to ensure not just people are held accountable for these crimes, but we are helping the victims and survivors of them. >> when you look, attorney general, at the fact 53% of white women voted for him, what does that say about what was covered as progress or some say climate for women to adjudicate sexual assault and the power dynamic in the me too era? what does that say? >> i wish i could explain that in some way, shape, or form. in the over 30 years i've handled sexual assault cases as a prosecutor or defense attorney, do you know how many survivors of sexual abuse have

ever said to me, that time that i was raped, it was no big deal and it did not really impact my life. can you guess? none. zero. it impacts everyone and people should also know it has a devastating impact economically. the cdc did a study on this and on average per act of sexual assault, it has about $125,000 impact on the economy when you look at all of the consequences, the ripple effect of sexual assault. if you are one of these white women who said, well, i am mostly concerned about economic issues, rape creates economic issues and everyone should know that. >> this is a sick thing to defend, right? there is an economic issue. i feel like we are in this moment where what's up is down, what's down is up, what's real

is the lies, the lies they've told are becoming the people running our government. what do you think the potential political fallout is from donald trump mandates that have nothing to do with the things he has been found liable to have done, who want to take a pass on allegations of sex trafficking of a minor, a settlement. i mean, bill o'reilly was fired from fox news for the types of settlements the trump transition team roles out as, yeah, there was a settlement with a woman who has accused him of assault. what do you think that says about this moment in our politics? >> all i know is when i ran for attorney general in 2018, somebody who was unfit for this

office because as an attorney, as a public defender, i had represented people charged with sexual assault. it is the sixth amendment right to counsel. they have the right to have an attorney represent them but i had prosecutors and sheriffs across the state who said that was disqualifying for me to be attorney general. now republicans have turned that on its head and said not only is it not disqualifying to have represented somebody in that capacity, you yourself can be a person who has committed sexual assault and it is okay with us. we do not have a problem with that at all. i think that really speaks to a deep concern in terms of what our country's values are. i can tell you this. for the people of my state, for the united states, and for women especially who are most often targeted for sexual assaults, i think it's going to be, you know, a shock to the system when they see what the ripple effects are of having

people like these individuals in positions of authority, and how this incredibly damaging crime is treated all the way from, you know, in our military to our healthcare professionals to our college campuses. it is going to be the devastating to people of our country and we will find out the hard way. >> let me tell you what senator kramer says about the allegations against mr. hegseth. >> with the sexual assault allegation, do you have any pause with pete hegseth? >> we have a sexual assault problem in the military. a number of us and certainly joni ernst, i have been on

board with them and in support of the legislation to deal with it since the chain of command was not. yeah, it becomes a problem. this is why you have hearings and you go through the scrutiny. i will not prejudge him. >> it's very concerning accusation. we clearly still have a problem with sexual assault in the military. you know, with regards to pete hegseth, his moral failings are actually overshadowing the simple fact he is the most unqualified pick for secretary of defense ever. he has almost no government experience, or experience working within a bureaucracy. he has no experience in strategic planning from a defense perspective. he has very little management experience.

he has barely led a very small group, less than 50 people before. he is super unqualified for this position to be in charge of the largest federal agency our government has. he is now nominated to oversee $800 billion and 30 million -- excuse me, 3 million people. he is simply unqualified for the job as well. >> amy, let me show you what senator tammy duckworth has said about whether the nomination process will include hearing from the victim. >> is the committee going to speak with the victim to ask if this was a misunderstanding? >> well, that will be the decision of the republicans in the committee next year. i hope that we will, but i

suspect they will rollover for mr. trump. frankly i will raise those questions. remember we just fought over a decade of fights and overhauled the military and its treatment of military sexual trauma. it is frankly an insult and really troubling mr. trump would nominate someone who has admitted he has paid off a victim who has claimed rape allegations against him. this is not the kind of person you want to lead the department of defense. >> are you -- are you hopeful? are you optimistic the confirmation process will be a genuine setting of his character and his past? >> well, i am generally an optimistic person to begin with, so yes, however, i wouldn't be surprised if mr. trump wins in this fight and gets this person as secretary of defense. but it really is a slap in the

face to everyone who works in the dod and the people who serve our country because the services -- remember, we are a values based military. that is what makes us special. when you look at the mission statement, at the core values of all of the services, there are terms like integrity, honor, and character. what does it say to the members of the military these are the ideals we hold them to, yet you are going to uplift a man like pete hegseth with such terrible moral character flaws to lead them? unfortunately, this is part of trumpism right now and we need to stand up and protect the military. >> i've been interested in men and how joe rogan became more powerful than the man tapped to

be his running mate. there are few cycles about what jd vance did to advance his candidate. even when donald trump was involved about how he created problems but joe rogan was viewed as a pure asset inside the maga movement and it is a really important conversation and one we have to have as a country but it has overshadowed the conversation about women and this was the first presidential election in a post- dobbs america and i've been asked questions as a host, do you think had it not enough women died? two in georgia and on election day, only one in texas. pro public has reported on a second woman that has died. the statistical processes have been cut out. we may not even know moving forward about the life or death implications of women being pregnant and having sex in a

post-dobbs america. you take the issue of sexual assault and a woman of a survivor of sexual assault or rape, a very small percentage of women seek judicially. you have a small sliver of men for whom their victims haven't reported that more sought to adjudicate the abuse and you have 53% of white women voting for the man to run the government. you have in his running mate someone who believes, quote, staying in marriages, even the violent ones is better than divorce. gaetz is accused of sex trafficking a 17-year-old. there is no legal sex work for a minor so no matter the circumstances, it is not a legal interaction. you've got hegseth and a 22 page police report that is at a

minimum harrowing and maximum there is a lawsuit against fox news. and donald trump -- let me play what donald trump describes what you can do when you are famous. >> is it true you can grab one by the [ bleep ]? >> if you look at the last million years, that has been largely true. not always, but largely true unfortunately or fortunately. >> you consider yourself to be a star? >> i think you can say that, yeah. >> and, now you said before a couple of minutes ago that this was just locker room talk. >> locker room talk. >> does that mean you did not really mean it? >> it's locker room talk. i don't know. it's just the way people talk. >> unapologetic at a minimum. and linda mcmahon is interesting, right?

she's accused by former employees of basically being aware of, at a minimum the most conservative description of those allegations, sexual abuse of teenagers. it is a portrait so cruelly cartoonish, it defies belief that in 2024 the united states of america chose this. how front and center do you think all of this was on election day? >> reporter: you know, nicolle, i don't know because there is so much that does not make sense , that a woman would support a president knowing that was in his background. what they did not know was what was coming with his cabinet picks that so many of them have sexual assault allegations as part of their portfolios. you would think most people would protest this person if they had that kind of background or charges against them and running for principal of the school, for the head of

the organization you work for, for anything close in your orbit but there is an assumption these candidates will be able to move forward without explaining in any way what they did and they will just ignore these allegations. those include pete hegseth's drinking to excess in public, paying off someone so they would keep silent because he was worried about losing his job with fox news, but appears to be less worried about having his confirmation stopped because of these same kind of allegations. we should be really clear here though about the hypocrisy in these nominations. let's not pretend that if the democratic president, either joe biden or barack obama or bill clinton reaching back, had presented a roster of nominees who had these kinds of charges against them, we know that the

republicans on the other side of the aisle would be crying foul, would be asking for investigations, would be calling people in front of committees to demand an explanation and probably just stop the nomination altogether. you know, there is hypocrisy in this as well. in hegseth's case, you have someone with tattoos. he has explained that. he took time to explain what that means. i guess we should take him at his word, it is a christian symbol in that case. is he willing to take the same amount of time to explain a he said she said situation regarding those allegations? i don't think that he is going to be willing to do that. the expectation is that nomination will sail forward and that does set a very terrible message to the woman who was courageous enough to

step forward when she experienced sexual trauma. it sends a very damning message to the people who adjudicate these cases, who think, is it worth it to bring charges, to try to get justice in some of these cases? it sends a confusing message to hr individuals and to people coming of age in this moment and looking at the america they will be living in. >> it is a privilege to have all of you. we only asked you to stay in the first block. i think to land on the fact of it and not the response to it is also a mistake and one they count on, right? we are going to plow through and he's going to stand by his men. it feels like viewing all of this as inevitable would be all of our mistakes. i will ask all of you to stick around through a commercial break. we will also tell you about his hypocrisy on the subject of law enforcement and his support for

the men and women of law enforcement. his team is shunning the team's top law-enforcement agency for refusing to let the fbi that any of the people for the transition. it's a risk to national security. we will talk about that. also ahead for us, we will be joined by our dear friend on what ukrainians are bracing for less than two months to go before trump takes office again. "deadline: white house" we'll be right back.

we're back with michigan attorney general dana nessel,

amy mcgrath, and michele norris. what does standing up for the victims and standing up for the truth look like? >> well, it means doing what we are doing right now, right? communicating to the general public if you make a report to our department, we will take that complaint incredibly seriously and start out from a position believing what you are telling us and investigate it from that perspective and i think that is the biggest problem we are facing here, right? the issue -- you brought up how many people report or don't report. it's about a third of sexual assault victims that step forward and make a report to law enforcement or anyone else to begin with. unfortunately that number might start to decrease as a result of what we are discussing today but i think the message we need to send is that this is not okay. we are not all right with the

offense of sexual assault and we will treat it incredibly seriously and use all of our efforts to investigate and prosecute these cases to the fullest extent of the law. people like her panelists today will not just accept the fact people who have these types of, you know, either convictions or even credible complaints in their background, that they would ever be qualified to lead these enormous and incredibly important agencies and departments throughout the nation and we have to continue to push back and say this is not okay and just because somebody who has, you know, a record of having been involved in sexual assault to become president of the united states, it doesn't matter who sits in the oval office. the rest of us are still going to hold these people to account and take these crimes and the stories of survivors very seriously. >> amy, it seems like it might

be harder to do that in the military, where the justice system is more insular and almost walled off by design from public scrutiny, but what can people do to support women in the military? >> well, stay engaged. stay engaged and have our backs. you know, those people, especially women in the military -- well, military members in general were not able to speak up against some of donald trump's policies coming down the pipe. people outside the military can see the real impact on women in the military, see the real impact on readiness, the impact on the military as an institution, an ethical institution. like i talked about earlier, those of us that understand this

from the outside need to speak up and have the backs of women in the military and the military in general, i think that is really important in the next four years. we sometimes want to throw up our hands and say, well, he's in office and there is nothing we can do but there is a lot we can do and we need to do it for our military, for our kids, and really for the world in general. >> on that, to be continued. attorney general dana nessel, thank you. amy mcgrath, thank you for starting us off. michele, stick around. when we come back, why the trump transition team does not want the fbi vetting any of these picks when we come back.

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and the freedoms we hold dear. so please join us. call or go online to myaclu.org today. thank you. traditional coffee sucks, despite my expression. no, that wasn't a question. my brow girl had traditional coffee this am and then she crashed into my brow. did i mention this is permanent. don't get your eyebrows done if your eyebrow girl doesn't drink everyday dose. everyday dose coffee, functional coffee for all day energy without the jitters or crash.

it's okay. it's gonna be. it looks good, right? we want a crime free america. we will stop violent crime in the united states and its people like this that can do the job better than anybody. there is nobody like them, so they can do it. they have to be given back their rights and their dignity. they have to be allowed to do their job. i will deliver law, order, safety, and peace. >> that was donald trump on the campaign trail promising law enforcement that if he is president he would allow them to do their jobs. that promise does not extend to january 6th or the fbi.

the new york times reports after weeks of delay the trump transition team has finally signed a transition agreement. quote, trump's team has so far refused to sign an agreement with the justice department to allow the fbi to do security clearances for transition members. trump has turned down federal funding for his transition which then allows them to raise unlimited private funds including from foreign nationals with zero requirement to disclose where they come from . senator elizabeth warren slammed the announcement on social media writing this announcement fails to answer key questions about national security threats and fbi vetting of nominees. it increases concerns about corruption. there appear to be serious gaps between the trump's transition's ethics agreement and the lock. joining us, former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi is here and michele is back as well. frank, your thoughts? >> look, this may be the first

tangible item we can point to that says trump intends to turn the fbi into his own personal police department. why am i saying this? there is reporting in the guardian that says the fbi will only do this background investigation for trump after he takes over the fbi, so trump's intention according to people around him is, yeah, he will do background investigations with the fbi but only once he takes control and it names the deputy director and director. rumors, of course, patel is up for deputy director. this creates a real national security dilemma because what's going to happen according to this guardian article, he will give blanket security clearances on day one to his nominees without the benefit of the fbi background investigations having already been done. he will then test the fbi and

fbi will weigh in. who's in charge? will trump get a full report? will he dictate the outcome of the report? if you think that is far- fetched, look back at justice kavanaugh's evaluation. what they could focus on and what they could do with the myriad of allegations flowing into the tip line. we are beginning to see the plan here. he will give senators on the judiciary committee an out by saying, oh, yeah, i will give you an fbi investigation but it will be my fbi and my investigation that i will hand you. hopefully members of the senate judiciary committee will balk at that and i would assert as i did in the column last week that president biden has the authority right now to step in and say i see a national security issue. i have the authority to order the fbi to give background

investigations right now. >> frank, i am thinking of tulsi gabbard as you are speaking as the kind of person trump may not want his last pick to hit the fbi, christopher wray to vet in a background check. i am at a loss. what is the incentive just to go deep into the mind of trump, why does he want people who haven't been vetted to be counterintelligence threats to the united states of america? >> there are a couple of ways i am looking at this. first, many people cannot get another job. literally their backgrounds preclude them from meaningful employment. what does that mean? they must be blindly loyal to him. their power, their authority, their influence comes only through him. secondly, he's got to be the smartest guy in the room. that's probably never the case

but it's his perception he's the smartest guy in the room. let me surround myself with people who have the ethics and morality that i have, which is basically zero. now we will all be the same. no one can criticize me from an ethical or intelligence related background. >> michele, what is fascinating to me, politically this doesn't serve trump to weaken the caliber of people who run the government that he will be held accountable for his success or failure and i wonder how sort of pickled the feedback loop is. tell me your thinking. >> reporter: well, if you have nothing to hide, why not acquiesce to a background check? they are there for a reason and they've been in place since the eisenhower administration to make sure people didn't have ties but also to look at financial problems that might lead people to be vulnerable to being blackmailed or something

like that. to look at their background so you actually know who is coming into office. i think they will get pushback on this. there is a bipartisan collision of senators from the upper midwest, ab klobuchar, kevin cramer, they are saying wait a minute. we need to have these fbi background checks. and when you think about the cautionary tale of bernard kerrick. remember him? there were some nonpayment of taxes involved and he had ties to a business concern that had ties to organized crime in new jersey so it is important we do these things. clearly this is an administration that is interested in dismantling the administrative state and removing background checks as part of that. this is a moment if people are

not comfortable about this, it is time to let their lawmakers know that and make their voices heard, even those who supported his election because it's not clear to me everyone who did was actually expecting something like this. >> michele, frank, we will stay on it. thank you for spending time with us. four when we come back, we will be joined to talk about ukraine. it could be an existential crisis in an ongoing russian assault and the possibility at least for the first time since the war began the united states will not have their backs.

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so please call or go online to helpfighthate.org today. for ukraine and much of the world escalations on the battlefield this week have come upon the backdrop of a quickley on -- approaching new normal. russia launched a record air assault with nearly 200 drones against 17 regions across ukraine this week damaging apartment buildings and the critical national power grid. russia says ukraine launched another round of u.s.-made missile systems to strike inside russia. the new york times calls the increase of attacks a sudden escalation that has shifted the focus away from ground assaults to a cold war-style missile brinkmanship. president joe biden has been racing to prepare ukraine's

military while vladimir putin has been ramping up threats of nuclear war. all of it comes amid fears of the next u.s. administration and what it will do. the washington post reports ukraine prepares to sell donald trump on the idea ukraine will benefit him too. kyiv hopes to convince trump that ukraine is not a charity case but a cost-effective economic and geostrategic opportunity that will ultimately enrich and secure the u.s. and its interests. ukraine hopes by embracing trump's transactional approach to diplomacy including offering american companies lucrative business opportunities the new president will ward off russia's advance. trump announced his nomination of keith kellogg as special envoy for ukraine and russia, giving him the major task of leading negotiations to end the war. joining me now is the former advisor to ukraine president zelenskyy and our dear friend.

also joining us, former bass that are to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst. igor, weigh in on the news but first tell us how you and your family are doing. >> hi, nicolle. the family is doing well. i've moved them out of ukraine for the winter. two winters is enough for two children. they are safe. as far as the situation on the ground is concerned, it is much worse. the attacks have become daily occurrences and we have pretty much seen everyday 50 to 100 drones including missiles and the new ballistics and all of that stuff. there is also -- you know, everyone understands the war will not stay on the same course it has stayed on for the past three years.

if you can't hope for anything else, you hope for change. that is the situation. >> igor, speak more to trump's transactional nature. >> well, my job description for president zelenskyy was to be his trump advisor. i have paid close attention to president trump and his team for the last six years. i can tell you this. on one hand the unpredictability of his decision-making and the people surrounding him is troubling and worrying. on the other hand, obviously he likes to win. he is more dangerous when he loses, as we know from historic presidents. and he basically wants to score victories for himself and for the united states. in that sense, ukraine has a lot to offer and hopefully

everything will be heard in that conversation. >> ambassador, there is not a world leader who has been on the receiving end of a trump treaty to do the dirty work of dirtying up the bidens. who knows what that means. sounds like the subject of his first impeachment but i guess the other side of that is there is no country that understands how disposable congressional military in a time of war is to president trump then president zelenskyy. how do you weigh this moment for ukraine? >> well, president zelenskyy and his team have no choice who to deal with when it comes to the united states of americana. what they might say privately and publicly, of course, they need to engage president-elect trump and his entire team.

we will do that in a minute. they have no other choice. without military assistance more ukrainians will die. without american military assistance, putin will escalate the war. if he thinks his opponent is getting weaker, he will not peace. he will try to achieve his military objective and he has made that crystal clear. he has not changed his objectives. he wants russian soldiers in downtown kyiv. what they have to convince trump of, if they want to win, like igor just said, that is the right strategy. the way you get a win is to stop hooting on the battlefield and the only way you do that is to sustain and to increase american assistance. if you disarm the ukrainians, you will get no deal and it will look a lot like the

american withdrawal from afghanistan. that is the message they should be sending to president-elect trump and his team. >> ambassador, do you view their refusal of mike pompeo and nikki haley as a rejection of people who understand the importance of ukraine as our ally and see russia as it is, our adversary? >> well, i can tell you about pompeo. there was a lot of talk in kyiv he would be named secretary of defense. i've spoken on panels with him. you know, that was a disappointment. a real disappointment. i think at the same time, they are optimistic about senator rubio, if he becomes secretary of state. he has said very positive things. kellogg, i don't know him personally but i have seen his interviews. he doesn't speak like jd vance about ukraine and i suspect you

will have a much more serious debate because of people like kellogg and rubio in the white house situation room than if you had the withdrawal folks who say we just have to pull out. at the end of the day, however, as i have sat in the situation room with president obama, at the end of the day, there is only one decision maker that matters. that will be president trump and i think they understand that very clearly in kyiv. >> igor, the reason you're so beloved by our viewers, you have brought to life what this has been like and you have such good stories for us. tell us what life has been like this week, this month. >> i actually have a different story to sure. before that, let me say i fully agree with ambassador mcfaul. so far what we have seen from the trump administration, it's definitely not as bad as it could have been. as long as he doesn't give us

rudy giuliani, we are okay with that. fingers crossed. in terms of stories, let me tell you a quick story. i was taking my friend out of the country. it was the first time going on a plane and like 3 1/2, four years. i lost track of time. what really disturbed me was the fact when you leave ukraine, you get to an international hub like istanbul, something like that, there are airplanes flying, there are russians spending their money with credit cards and everything, and life goes on. it is not an existential crisis to anyone outside of ukraine and this war is not winnable and peace is not achievable without giving our best to the cause. and i think that is ironically the thing that gives me hope with the new president, the fact

he is a very sore loser. with putin, winning is not that easy. putin will not go away. he will not stop. he has turned his country into a war machine. a pretty please will not work with him. my hope is if putin makes a mistake or tries to escalate with donald trump, that is one case you want him to be unpredictable. you want him to actually arm ukraine to the teeth and say, putin, you better stop, or else. but it is mind blowing how the world has not been paying attention. >> such a sad truth. i appreciate you for saying it. ambassador mcfaul, just quickly, if you take trump at his word, which is what igor is talking about doing, he wants vladimir putin to like him and it seems vladimir putin dislikes weakness more than anything.

so if you take -- if you sort of go with igor's framework here, what would putin view as strong if trump wanted to be seen as strong? >> arm the ukrainians. make sure that he's not going to have the ability to win the war. talk about bringing ukraine into nato. that is the only way to get a long and lasting peace as far as i am concerned. i think president trump should understand if he wants to get a real peace deal done, he has got to do that. if he wants to win that nobel peace prize, he has to do some tough things now. >> igor novikov, ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you both for joining us today. another break for us. we will be right back. that is our legacy. and the future is now.

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one had been wrongfully detained for more than 10 years. the release was part of ace -- a prisoner swap. the deal was months in the making. president joe biden brought this up when he met with president xi in peru two weeks ago. for the families of the freed americans fixed thanksgiving, there is so much to be thankful for. another break for us. we will be right back. because when you do, you're not just giving to a hospital. you're helping change the life of a kid like me and me and me. so today, i'm asking you to join with us in focusing on what is truly important. helping kids in need right now and into the future. please call or go to loveshriners.org. thanks to a generous donor, your gift will have three times the impact in the lives of kids like me.

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