all aboard! come with me to meet the wizard. why couldn't possibly. this is your moment. i'm coming. if you think that's something to see, wait til you see this. ♪ ♪ you're good. -very good. good to be with you, i am katy tur democrats do not agree on a lot, how, harris lost, how she underperformed everywhere, why the party keeps losing working-class voters and

why they're now losing more of the minority voters. the only thing they do seem to agree on, the party that is is the easy part, that there needs to be some change, but how do you affect that change? what do you do? bernie sanders argues the next move should be a full on assault of corporate power and the billionaire class. chris murphy largely agrees, arguing that the party needs to rethink support for the neoliberal world order. in other words, the status quo seth moulton says it is a welcome culture problem, the democrats need to stop policing language and thought. nancy pelosi does not quite agree, she thinks the loss has more to do with the amount of time kamala harris had to run. joe biden dropped out too late. john fetterman is weighing in, but his message is less dramatic, he says to wait and

stop freaking out. joining us is phil rocker, and erin haynes, and john nichols. a part of the first step to figuring out what to do next is electing a party chair, a dnc party chair, in charge of the messaging party-one for the country, it was jamie harrison of south carolina who will not be running for it. who are they looking at and why does this person matter so much in this particular position? >> this is an important position in building infrastructure which is foundational for any rebirth of the democratic party, this will be the person raising money, tending to the health and viability of the state democratic parties around the country, who would be help lay

the groundwork for midterm elections in 2026. this is not necessarily signing onto some new agenda for the entire democratic party. there will be presidential candidate over the next four years that will be laying out more of a policy agenda to lead the party forward. a few people are in the mix, martin o'malley, the former governor of maryland who has been serving in the biden administration, he ran for president in 2016 and expressed interest in running for dnc chair. a number of others in the mix, and some calls for rahm emanuel, the first white house chief of staff for barack obama, who led the democrats to success in 2006 and most recently ambassador to japan some in the democratic party who hope he will be the dnc into the future. >> what do you make of these differing assessments about what went wrong and what should be addressed first? >> i do think there is

something to nancy pelosi's point, this was an outlier in that, kamala harris did only have 107 days, which probably was the only way she was going to be the nominee. given our track record of this country for electing a woman president, was that enough to elect a woman? i don't know, we saw it was not the case in this situation. but this was a very close race, democrats came up short. does that mean there needs to be a complete overhaul of the system? i am not sure that is the case. i do think that, in thinking about the next party chair, thinking about how that person works with state democratic party chairs will be key. as we were unpacking what went

wrong in november, so much of the chatter is centered around the national party and what their support was of the grassroots, state groups, and the infrastructure in a way that would have yielded the turnout result they needed to win. with support of people on the ground and not just in washington could come in and make a difference in the midterms and beyond. >> what about you? you have spoken a bunch to bernie sanders about what is going on and you are talking to voters on the ground in wisconsin, a state that donald trump won and democrats used to easily rely on. >> i am speaking to you from the southwestern wisconsin, what i can tell you, when you talk to grassroots democrats, i have been in chicago and milwaukee, other folks talking to people for a big article i am writing on this, they are very resilient. they are ready to fight on.

but they are very frustrated with the party. i think they would agree strongly with errin who said 107 days is an incredibly difficult time in which to build a campaign. that kamala harris gave it everything she had. but, that the party was not ready for this, and is not an agile, fluid, functional party in much of the country. what i am hearing a lot of, people want the democratic party to be much more in touch with its grassroots. much more populist, much more progressive. if you talk to grassroots democrats, that is what you will hear. the other thing is, they cannot continue to be a seven or eight state -- swing state party, it has to be a national party. the reason for that, if it was a national party, a little bit more energy into building up all of the state parties, no

question they could have gotten the house of representatives this year but they didn't win the house and in a much weaker position. passion for getting resources to the states and much more populist and progressive message, like what chris murphy and bernie sanders are talking about. >> this is the union leader who ran in the basket and almost defeated the republican incumbent, was doing well for a while, especially in the polling, i was told what lost him the race, this is one assessment from a democratic source, the democratic party, not the party itself, but the supportive groups of the democratic party came in and started funding dan osborne, making advertisements for him, and he was more associated with the democratic party nationally. that became a problem for him

because he was not seen as somebody who was an outsider. why would the democratic party, nationally, have such a bad profile that it could have potentially lost him the race? >> are you asking me? >> yes. >> i have heard a lot about dan and spend time with him. he had a meticulously tied to the campaign and he wanted people to see them as truly independent. he is progressive on a lot of labor issues, on quite a few issues, but more conservative on some other things and did not want to be the face of the national democratic party. this goes way back to when joe biden was a candidate all the way through the campaign. this is one of the deeper things, i have spent a lot of time traveling to what are referred to as red states, and seeing democrats come very close to him either running as democrats were sometimes as an independent. very close to winning.

but not quite unlocking that calculus. what people tell me again and again, part of that calculus is that the national party seems, in many cases, way too tied to washington. not that it is woke polling data shows that those are not really the issues moving people. what is really concerning, a sense that washington itself is broken. that it is in fact too tied to corporations and insiders. that the democrats carry that image, at least in the selection but remember, in two years, the democrats will not be in charge, and if they get their act together, may be able to run as a much more populist force. >> what about what john fetterman is arguing, everyone needs to chill out? >> there is something to that. really instructive to see what

the first couple of months of the donald trump administration bring in terms of the actions that he takes and how that resonates with the american people in polling, and how democrats position themselves in response which will give us a clear indication of what kind of popular support there may be for democrats in these midterm elections which would tell those looking to lead the party into the future just how broken this party is. it may be that there becomes a groundswell of support for democrat six months into the donald trump residency which can lead them to getting back control, but there is a point that john fetterman is making, just hold out, we don't need radical changes in a party based on this one election. let's just see what happens >> how influential is nancy pelosi still within the democratic party? is there any discomfort among democrats about nancy pelosi's level of influence within the party? >> she is very influential insofar as she was probably the

single most influential person in orson joe biden out of the race this past summer. she is usually influencer with donors, longtime established donors of the democratic party. she maintains support within congress where she is seen as a leader outside of the formal leadership and somebody who -- that being said, her era of influence is certainly beginning to end. not as influential as she was a few years ago when she was speaker of the house. obviously, that influence will decline in the next two years when you see a new generation of leaders take hold and reshape the direction of the party. >> i have been hearing rumblings of nancy pelosi taking so much of the spotlight that hakeem jeffries has not been able to really lead the party in the way he was elected to do. >> well, i do not know i would

say that leader jeffries is anything of a shrieking violet, he knows how to grab headlines and make news, and make the case for his own leadership. nancy pelosi still does loom very large over our politics. the only woman to hold the position of speaker of the house. somebody who was at one time the most powerful woman in american politics before kamala harris ascended to her role. yes, i agree with philip, her stature may be on the decline but, from such a perch. i think hakeem jeffries is aware that she still does hold a lot of influence and there is still a lot that he can learn from her. i do not think that is a mistake . she knows how to win. >> what about north carolina,

what has it been so successful in electing democrats statewide ? they did not vote for kamala harris, but, the governor, a democrat and a lot of the other national -- or statewide officials in that state are democrats. why is there that break? >> a couple things going on, first and foremost, republicans nominated we candidates. that is something you cannot always count on. the republican ticket in north carolina at the gubernatorial level was in bad shape. the on that, in north carolina, they have a young, dynamic party leadership. they have built what is a multiracial, multiethnic party that tries very hard to reach out to a lot of different communities where they are at. i do think that that combination is one that works. the north carolina democratic party leadership knows north carolina.

i would say, if you look at other states where the party has done better than expected, as an example in wisconsin, they got a race or in michigan where they want to send a race. -- where they won a senate race. what the national party easter realize, they need your resources to those state parties and have to let them bring their own course, where they do it is very successful often. north carolina is a real example. one thing i will point out, gerrymandering in north carolina cost democrats several seats. it is fair to say that, in north carolina, if it had not been gerrymandered, a good chance they could have taken the house of representatives. >> is your family so ratty you cannot talk to me from a room and are in the basement? >> i am so thrilled to tell you, i am in the basement of

arcadia books in wisconsin, one of the great independent bookstores in america i was out here working and talking to people. time caught up with me and i said to the folks at the store, i need to do a msnbc hit, they said, with katy tur? i said yes and they said we can use the basement . >> tell them i say "hi." john, thank you. phil, thank you, appreciate it, errin haines coming up, we will continue this conversation with folks who know a thing or two and hamas claiming credit of an attack on israelis in the west bank, what it means for the conflict? we are back in 90 seconds. this black friday get iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence. get four on us. only on verizon. with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis

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with verizon, trade in any phone, any condition. can find the joy this black friday, get iphone 16 pro, on us. and ipad and apple watch series 10. all three on us. only on verizon. joining us that was chief strategist for the bush cheney 2004 presidential campaign and senior political contributor, matthew dowd, for medication director and spokesman for hakeem jeffries, michael hardaway, former deputy assistant secretary of state and spokesperson for hillary clinton. i said you know a thing or two about a thing or two. explain what happened and where the party should go next. >> look, in 1992, he was pretty clear james caramel summed it up as it is the economy stupid and all these years later, it is still the economy, stupid.

not to say there were not other factors going on at the cause of death for this race was a singular issue, inflation was stubborn, it was hurting, and that is something you cannot do. looking backwards, in terms of the democrat record on the economy, it is stellar. 10 -- i was surprised to look this up, 10 of 11 of the recession since truman had been under republican watch. the job numbers are incredible, under the same time, over 120 million , 80 million of those under the democrats. the idea that the democratic party does not understand the working class, the working people, people who are the bulk of the voters, is absurd. going forward, the issue is how to change that. that is where you get into secondary issues with a branding issue. people need to come back to us. we need people who fled, that

we shed in 2024, to come back to the party and they will not do it with some of the social, politically correct, woke, i don't know what to call it without getting in trouble on twitter, issues. that, to sum up, in 2016, we lost and in 2020, the lessons learned from 2016 were probably not right. if you look at the slate of candidates that ran in 2020, they were hard left and try to go left of bernie sanders, and joe biden , a moderate, he got more votes than anyone. important going forward that the party not overreact to what we do not know exactly what happened. it will take some time to not instinctively say that we have to go the opposite way, more progressive, we have to rile up people even more, because that does not seem to be the case. >> isn't there a basic lesson that can be learned about the

way the government functions? michael, the democrats were facing headwinds because joe biden was the incumbent and there were economic concerns among americans. but the economic trends were going in the right direction, the cold hard numbers were trending positively for them they had the chips and science act. is part of this the democrats inability to sell their plans, in the moment and going forward, to stick with us, it will get better in the future? also, as a parallel problem, it takes so long to get anything done in washington. you pass this great bill which will employ people, it will build manufacturing back in places that need it, but it will take years to get it done, isn't this a problem the democrats should be trying to tackle head- on? we will make government function better, we will get things done faster, we will cut through the red tape. >> there is a failure to

communicate and that is a foundational issue we have. democrats at a policy level flight for working americans at every level. you have 16 million jobs, democrats fighting to protect units, 50 million americans that have healthcare because of those affordable care act. you have these great things. 39 million americans who have diabetes, they now have access to affordable insulin because of democrats. but nobody knows because we don't talk about it. that is a failure to communicate on our part. as a party, we have to get together in unison to talk about issues, there are too many disparate conversations having which are completely separate and not allied together. if we can get on the same page and tell these stories day in and day out, we would be in a much better place. >> bernie sanders and his allies was a part of the issue is democrats are not talking about this often -- authentically, they are talking

about it with bullet points and policy prescriptions, or at least kamala harris, they don't feel intrinsically wedded to, this is not a part of their identity on the lack of authenticity, summary fighting for things for their entire political career, as bernie sanders says he has, something the voters may not be able to pinpoint but they feel it, if they do not feel you are so well read in on these issues, so dedicated to fixing these problems, that you can go on a three-hour podcast, this is the bernie sanders ally saying this, voters will not think you are really in it to improve their lives. they will take you are in it for another reason. >> we have to speak english and bill clinton is a master at this . in terms of educating voters and having long conversations with them without it feeling like they are being sold and that is what we have to do. we have to get out of this position where we sort of speak in talking points and regurgitate talking points, and having conversations about how people's lives are going and how what we are doing affects their lives. genuinely, people

do not know what democrats do for them. that is our job to tell them in a way that is not elitist and in a way that speaks directly to their lives on their level. that is where we should be. we cannot tell them what they should care about we should meet them where they are and speak to them about the things they care about. >> an argument to be made, matthew, that donald trump one because of they are tired of the status quo and they want somebody to blow things up which is why they give him the leeway to do this, to pick a bunch of people with no business leading the agency's they will be chosen to leave because people don't feel like the agencies are working for the many ways. do you see the democratic party trying to address that in any way? what i was talking about with michael, we pass a bill but it will take eight years to come into effect, why isn't there a, we can go through and deregulate a lot of the stuff, some things that are not necessary, we can get rid of these some of the environmental reviews. i know that is scary

for a lot of people, but maybe some go overboard. there are ways to make it easier to start building and manufacturing again in this country. >> i think you touched on it, what was the main reason why the election, the way it went the way it went. i argue that democrats and republicans are misreading the results of this election. they are both taking away the wrong lessons from the selection. joe biden's job approval driven by the economy and perceptions of the economy was the number one factor in how people voted. joe biden has been holding office for 50 years, joe biden is the picture of the status quo. you like it or hate it or love his policies, he is the status quo. and his vice president took that over in a short campaign where she was put in place and that is how the voters viewed her. in the end, this election, i am with john federman, everybody

should chill out because, it was not long ago, two years ago, democrats did well in a number of states, electing women for governor, women in statewide offices, electing people of color in offices across the country, especially in key states. i will give people this fact, if the job approval for joe but it was three or four points higher on election day, 43% or 44% on election day instead of 40%, we would be inaugurating the first black, woman president of united states, democrats would've taken the house and the republic is one of only picked up two seats in the senate, that would be a completely different conversation. i will agree with this, democrats have to turn this at full-scale over to the next generation. this can no longer be the class of politicians that have been in office for 20 or 30 years that basically is interested in preserving what they view as

the status quo. many of the arguments democrats make about, we have to keep this institution in place, this has been working, voters do not believe, i do not think voters want to blow everything up because they see many parts of this that work, they want them to work better i don't think donald trump is taking the right lessons from this election, or his republican allies, the people he is appointed, he did not win this election, joe biden lost it for the vice president and that is how we have to see it. it does have to be turned over to a new breed of politicians. >> michael, is it time, i don't know, for nancy pelosi to have a softer voice within the party? >> i think the good news is that democrats in the house and hakeem jeffries have someone who is prepared to lead our party into the future in terms

of his understanding of the issues that work -- working americans deal with, like criminal justice reform and major issues we are facing as a country surrounding ai and technology and these important issues. that is the good news. he has a very good relationship with nancy pelosi in that she has been very helpful to him in this transition. introducing him to donors and other key people he will need as he moves forward for our party. i think we are in a good place in terms of leader jeffries and his relationship with nancy pelosi as it relates to her timeline in transitioning out. that is something she has to decide for herself. democrats are prepared in the house. democratic leader jeffries is prepared in the house to move us forward in the right way. >> what about you? >> i will say this with all due respect to nancy pelosi, i was joking, which he filed for reelection, joe biden could exact a measure of something

by calling her and saying, i think it is time to hang it up. to your point about government work, the first thing that will come up which is a little bit different, then that donald trump tax cuts and renewing them, in general, i spent eight years in the government, you go to work and see stuff that does not happen, not malicious or problematic in terms of people stealing, but use the money spent. the problem is, if someone has pneumonia, you do not pour chemotherapy down the throat, that is overdoing it, that is not how to solve -- not how to save the patient what they are doing is throwing people in who use words like blowup, destruction, get rid of, that is not how to keep government going. they talk about blowing up the fbi. really? do people not what the fbi? they go after all sorts of people. i do not think that is

what they mean. these people are not equipped to do what i think voters want. people did not vote any kind of huge mandate. donald trump got six more electoral votes than joe biden did four years ago, he defeated kamala harris in terms of popular vote by a couple of minutes as opposed to joe biden by 8 million everyone needs to calm down and realize this is not some kind of 49 state shellacking of ronald reagan over walter mondale. a proof point is matt gaetz will not be the attorney general. donald trump cannot get away with anything and it is not that the democratic senate that told him he can't, it is his republican party that told him he cannot. i very much, we all believe government should be smaller and more efficient, i do not think that elon musk is the guy to do it. he will come in like a bull in a china shop and break the stuff that works as much as the stuff that doesn't. >> chris murphy will argue that

the democrats need to offer an alternative, one that will fix the system from within, reform it rather than blowing up, which is what donald trump has been advocating. first, offer an alternative to voters. really good to have you. thank you for joining me. coming up next, what happened in the west bank today and what it means for the israeli war with hamas? i told myself i was ok with my moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis symptoms... ...with my psoriatic arthritis symptoms. but just ok isn't ok. and i was done settling. if you still have symptoms after trying a tnf blocker like humira or enbrel, rinvoq works differently. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that can rapidly relieve joint pain, stiffness, and swelling as fast as 2 weeks for some.

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a gunman opened fire on israelis biting a bus in the west bank today, rescue services say at least eight people were injured. three are in serious condition. joining us that is our international correspondent matt bradley who is in beirut. we are just a few days into this very tenuous cease-fire between lebanon and israel. there was a scuffle yesterday and a disagreement over whether somebody broke the cease-fire what is the latest today? >> reporter: today, we are hearing there were more shots fired across the border. it looks as though, despite all of this, despite how tenuous the cease-fire was to begin with, and the bruising war that came after, it looks as though the cease-fire is still going to be holding for now. katy, we had front row seats to the bombardments that have been striking this southern neighborhood in the capital of

beirut. we have not seen that since we got here a couple days ago following the cease-fire. it looks as though, for now, all the violence we have been seeing after the cease-fire has been confined to a narrow band of land along the border between lebanon and israel, mostly the israelis firing at lebanese people, saying they were returning back to positions they had said to evacuate, places that were essentially stockpiles of weapons and people moving back to those stockpiles and that is why they opened fire. it does not sound as though hezbollah has been firing back, though hezbollah has been complaining israel has been breaking the cease-fire terms . it looks as though both sides are intent on not letting these isolated incidents lawson into a renewed war. >> the israelis were saying that, because of the cease-fire with hezbollah , it would put more pressure on hamas to come to the table and except --

accept israeli demands to stop the war, that iran told hezbollah to take the deal, it is isolating hamas from one of its biggest allies, hezbollah , have you heard anything regarding that to suggest that pressure may work? >> reporter: interesting you are asking that, a couple months ago, it was thought to be the other way around, that the deal in the gaza strip, we kept hearing from american diplomats, was about to happen and that would be the deal that will cause peace to breakout over the lebanese-israel border but that did not happen, it was in the reverse way and hope that the peace deal between hezbollah and israel mainly to a peace deal and the gaza strip . we have heard from benjamin netanyahu in the past couple of days that he is open to a deal with hamas even though he says he will not stop the war with hamas. we heard that the egyptians had

sent a delegation a couple days ago to israel to present a peace proposal. now, we are hearing from arabic media that hamas is sending a delegation to cairo to negotiate a peace deal. we have heard from joe biden saying he hopes there can be a deal after the successful negotiation of a deal between hezbollah and israel. we do not know where that will go to given all of the false starts we have been hearing over the past year, this is shrouded in the same level of pessimism that we have been seeing ever since the last successful deal in november. next, what to expect if you are hitting the road this holiday weekend. holiday weekend. care a icaid, i have some really encouraging news that you'll definitely want to hear. depending on the plans available in your area, you may be eligible to get extra benefits with a humana medicare advantage dual-eligible special needs plan. most

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millions of people are trying to get home after the holiday today. it is not so easy. we look at where the rough weather is already impacting travel. >> reporter: frigid temperatures and dangerous driving conditions across the country. in parts of western and central new york, thanksgiving brought heavy snow and cold lake effect whether the governor staging more than 100 national guard members to respond to the storm, 3 to 4 feet of snow accumulation possible over the next few days.

>> in an area with snow and cold weather, have extra blankets in the vehicle, extra water, flashlights, anything that could help you if you get stuck in traffic for a long time. >> reporter: snowplows clearing roads in south dakota quatrain never say the rails offer an easier way to go. >> you can just relax and sleep and is a comfortable chair, comfortable bending on an airplane. >> reporter: some waited until the last minute to travel were grateful for quite roads and new flight delays. >> the airport was really nice. for lines moving smoothly and normally busy airports like atlanta, laguardia, and l.a.x.. to the smoothest experience at l.a.x.. >> reporter: tsa thanking workers for their efforts over the holidays. >> this has been a particularly busy year in the aviation sector >> reporter: the peak rush is expected sunday evening when tsa says it is preparing to screen up to 3 million passengers on a plan for extra

traffic on the way to the airport. >> the longer you wait to leave on sunday, the worse the traffic will be. >> joining us is meteorologist angie lassman. where could there be some issues? >> the great lakes we are focusing on, not just a day but even into the weekend we will see these lake effect snow showers lasting and causing delays in chicago and detroit. the rest of the country looking pretty good with air travel across the west and south, up and down the east coast, you are okay but detroit and chicago are the trouble spots over the next couple of days in the air and on the roads. i-75 and i-90 two spots a slower go for today. as we look at the satellite and radar, all of those lake effect snow showers are ongoing and have been ongoing. something we likely see lasting to the weekend with the winter alert up for millions of people on the downwind parts of the lake. michigan, ohio, pennsylvania,

new york, all with those in effect as we gear up for incredible snowfall in a short time. through the next 24 to 36 hours, some white out conditions on the roadways. snowfall rates anywhere from 3 to 4 inches per hour this will be troublesome for people across the area. upper 40s to low-50s for the water temperatures, some places have record-breaking temperatures with no surprise, with those warm lake waters and cold air coming across it, your science lesson for the day, it promotes moisture falling in the form of snowfall downwind of the lakes. we are setting ourselves up for this prime -- these prime conditions across the region. i-80 and i-90 are some of the spots with i-75 likely difficult to travel to the next couple of days. here he could see five feet of snow by the time this is said and done watertown as well. something we will watch the

weekend. you may be thinking, the cold air, winter conditions confined to the great lakes, not the case, this cold air coming down from the arctic and it will drop as far south as the southeast, georgia could see freezing temperatures in the early morning hours. here is where we start saturday morning, 14 degrees in chicago, you have the wind, a 1 feels like temperatures with 19 in columbus, feeling like 9. atlanta wakes up 20 days tomorrow but feeling like 22 degrees. the extra layers will go a long way if you have plans , especially in the early morning across a large part of the country, even into the afternoon, temperatures in the 30s for charleston, cleveland, st. louis, 20s in chicago through the weekend. winter is here. >> bundle up. coming up, rising from the ashes, notre dame cathedral set to reopen after the devastating fire over five years ago. a live report from paris is

next.

the notre dame cathedral is set to reopen the doors next week. five years after a devastating fire and the incineration of the iconic spire french president macron visited the site today ahead of a reopening ceremony and we got a look joining us is our chief international correspondent keir simmons in paris.

5.5 years ago, i was in the hospital, just giving birth to my son, teddy, and i was watching this on the television and getting emotional because it was -- it is an icon and it looked like a devastating fire. how were they able to put it back together again? >> reporter: great question, you really describe it well, katy, it was nighttime like this, behind me is notre dame cathedral . you may not be able to see it, it is in the river seine, but blazing that night, you could see the fire leaping into the sky with parisians watching, terrible inferno. incredible, president macron said five years later , and it is refurbished. like a phoenix from the ashes. it is incredible. i recorded a story inside the cathedral a year before the fire what you see now, president

macron said , it is better than it was then. white walls, blazing, shimmering colors from the windows and the murals on the walls, the gold, there is a corner of gold where the crown of thorns will be on display. the roof, the wood and oak, we saw there are fire doors and fire extinguishers. he described it, what this will mean, this could three will will live for hundreds of years more having lived for hundreds of years, since medieval times. it is spectacular inside we are just a few weeks away from the public been able to go inside. >> when will the public be able to get back in? >> reporter: december 16th, opening ceremony is next week,

we saw so much of it today because macron took an incredible tour , hours long. the opening someone is next week and december 16th, five christmases without the cathedral and christmas this year with the cathedral. there were thousands of craftsmen and crafts women involved with restoring the cathedral. he thanked many of them today. he said to them, this is a project of the century, you have taken part in history. you have written your names in history. some of them we have spoken with, talking about how they mimicked the craft of those medieval workers. they tried to do what they had done and found themselves admiring what those earlier workers had done to build this cathedral. with so much less technology than we have today. >> keir simmons, thank you so much . what has world leaders caught in between joe biden and donald trump to much more coming up after the break.

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let me set the record straight. are people born wicked? or do they have wickedness thrust upon them? oh! -ah! [ laughter ] no need to respond. that was rhetorical. hm, hmm. >> state informed. msnbc has you covered wherever you are. watch, read, and listen, for the in depth analysis you need. stay with msnbc. >> good to be with you. i am katy tur.

there could be a trade war with mexico, canada, and china. a proposal to make elon musk a new u.s. mediator with iran, a reported, but not confirmed position with russian president vladimir putin. all of this is months before donald trump is inaugurated. that poses another problem. who does the world listen to right now? is it donald trump, or the current president, joe biden? we used to have one president at a time. one at a time. that is it. that is for the new person not to step on the current person. as peter baker lays it out, this is america in the time of transition, making peace and

declaring war, all in the same 24 hour news cycle, two presidents feeding the country in two different directions. one come officially .1, unofficially .1 representing the past in the present. the other, representing the future. foreign leaders have to calculate whether it makes sense to work with the old leader or base for the successor. we have kelly o'donnell in west palm beach florida, staff writer with the atlantic, mark leibovich. mike, how does president biden navigate these uncharted waters? >> it is interesting, because

president biden, as someone who has been in the government for half a century, he is quite experienced in this field. this is the fourth transition he has been part of himself. as part of the obama administration, he was considered to be one of the smoothest and best run transitions from the bush administration. and then, one of the worst transitions in 2020 as donald trump did not even acknowledge that biden won the election and try to overturn it. biden is trying to make sure that at least he is doing everything that needs to be done to ensure that this is as smooth as possible, and you look at the contacts that have already taken place -- president biden has already met with president elect trump, a positive meeting, in the spirit of the moment. close quarters coronation is essential. secretary of state blinken says he will have meetings with

marco rubio and national security advisor's. they will update him on the various key breakthroughs we have seen, like the cease-fire in lebanon. it has been interesting to see, katy, the way that president biden has tried to avoid conflict with the incoming president, but yesterday, opened the door to a clear policy difference between the two, that on the issue of tariffs. listen to what the president said yesterday. >> i hope he rethinks it. i think it is a counterproductive thing to do. one of the things i said before is we have an unusual situation in america. surrounded by the pacific ocean and the atlantic ocean and two allies, mexico and canada. the last thing we want to do is screw up those relations. >> president biden says he hopes there is an internal

reckoning as he looks at the ramifications of a trade war with our trading partners and a very competent adversary in china. it has also been interesting, katy, to watch the president and see areas where he hopes to influence the incoming administration. we were just on the trip to south america, where he tried to stress that the incoming president maybe should not averse -- overturn investments in clean energy, which are economic advantages in terms of competition with the rest of the world in that area. he is worried about losing some of his legacy here point you can tell that president biden rate that trump is inheriting a stronger economy, one that will continue to improve, and he doesn't want trump to get credit for what he thinks he is responsible for. >> kelly, is there any hesitation from the incoming president that may be confusing to people on the world stage? is there any of the internal reckoning that president biden

is hoping will happen with the trump team regarding policy proposals that he has already pronounced? >> i think it is notable that president elect trump is not actively publicly engaging in criticism of joe biden any longer. he talked about a nice transition, and while he is engaging in calls and talking about policy and doing some of those things, both men are in a moment where they are each responsible for their own conduct. certainly that is the case with joe biden. he wants to leave a clean, professional transition, and solidify his policies where he can. it appears donald trump is sending some tones, but not trying to upend it all before he takes the oath of office. i think there is some engagement, but it is not what it could be with a completely, you know, able to bluster at

all times donald trump. that is not what we are seeing at the moment. he engaged with the mexican president in a phone call. they exchanged a letter. he interpreted the call differently than she has done so publicly, but he is not in an open fight with that. he is positioning himself. he is trying to seek some kind of advantage where he can. he and his aides talked about tariffs as a negotiating tool, not just means unto their own economic end, and so, at this point, the president-elect is assembling his team. he is not doing it the normal way. he is not doing the engaged transition with background checks and office space and those things, but he is doing some of the things, which is a difference, and perhaps he has a somewhat different approach than he did coming in the first time. obviously, when the power is his, it may be different, but there is a noteworthy, i suspect, political scientists

will study this period, how from a broken relationship with trump and biden in 2020, how there is a workable partnership that is happening here, even if it is at a distance and it is for professional means, they're both kind of trying to get to the finish line without doing any more damage. that is at least how it appears to me. >> let me play a little bit from one of donald trump's cabinet members not offered a job for this current cabinet, but this is mike pompeo talking about what world leaders should be doing right now. >> i think what is really happening is both leaders, president zelensky and putin are both trying to create the conditions where they have more leverage, as these negotiations began as this conversation has already started. president biden is largely irrelevant to this conflict today. it is president elect trump who

is driving the process there in europe. i think they're both trying to gain leverage point they're trying to be in better positions when conversations begin about how to create peace there. >> president biden, irrelevant, what do you think? >> look, i think, in general, like -- mike pompeo -- he is coming from a perspective where he is kept out of this administration. that ukraine conflict is probably issue number one, two, or three, that trump will inherit coming in. i think, in some ways, this is the tip of the spear of how awkward transitions are. they are awkward, no matter who the incoming and outgoing presidents are. in this case, because the worldviews on the service are so radically different, it is going to be more so. donald trump is not about to accept the norms of the president you refer to before.

i think negotiations are about leverage. we will see how they came it going forward and i think we are going to be in a different position to assess this in january. >> now that we have a little bit of news from president zelensky, how that mike pompeo soundbite reads. this is from an interview with sky news that zelensky did, talking about the parameters that he would accept for a peace deal with russia, and they do include, still, nato membership in the future. let's listen. transit or make if we want to stop the hot stage of the work, we should take under the nato umbrella, the territory of ukraine that we have under our control. that is what we need to do fast. >> it is really fascinating. this is the first time that he has ever said that the country would be willing to cede some territory. for him to make this statement

and to take this step, do you see shades of what mike pompeo was referring to? >> yes. and i would say resident zelensky and his team have thought about the idea that he flitted today for the first time for many months. they have been planning for president elect trump to be back in power. all leaders have had to have plan b's, and they understand that getting american assistance and keeping american assistance forever is not an option. and if they can't push the russians out of their territory, i think heat, very wisely, i think it is a brilliant idea, said, we will only pursue peacefully the reintegration of all of the territory that is occupied, but in return, we need nato membership to guarantee that

the war won't start again. and he references west germany. i think another analogy is south korea in 1953, where we signed a treaty with south korea, but part of the condition of doing that is they had to stop trying to unify the country militarily. this is a desperate move, and a desperate time to try to get something that will be a permanent peace, and nato membership for zelenskyy is key. >> what is the likelihood that vladimir putin, given that trump is back in office, that president putin says yes to this? part of his redline -- i know we had this discussion, but his redline as he doesn't want ukraine to be part of nato at all. >> well, i don't care what putin wants. >> i know you don't care, but what do you expect? >> the brave move -- if president elect donald trump really wants a permanent peace deal in ukraine and wants to be

celebrated as the leader that would do it -- nobel peace prize laureate -- this is the deal to be done. the idea that putin -- think about it for a minute. putin's greatest day is the day that they agreed to stop the work because he tells the people in his world, i won the war. the territories are annexed. everyone agrees point is using ping shows up and they do a victory tour. that is the day. he does not want to spoil that by saying, we are going to make ukraine joint nato. that is a big move, but i do not think he ever invaded ukraine to stop nato expansion. nato stopped expanding to ukraine many years ago. i think it is a very creative deal that can be a lasting peace, not a temporary peace

followed by an invasion of ukraine down the road. >> i want to pay a little bit -- play a little bit from the head of the mi six. -- 6. he is giving some advice. he is giving some advice. let's listen. >> if putin is allowed to reduce ukraine to a vassal state, he will not stop there. our security, british, french, and trans atlantic, will be jeopardized. the cost of supporting ukraine is well known, but the cost of not doing so would be infinitely higher. if putin succeeds, china would waive the indications. north korea would be emboldened.

iran would become more dangerous. >> do you see, michael, the people that donald trump has around him now, or the people he is putting in his cabinet, do you see them coming to him with that same advice from richard moore, saying that whatever your feelings toward putin are, this is something bigger than you. this is good advice. if you make this deal, you might win a peace prize. perhaps using his ego to make the move that the western world wants him to make. >> i think it is much more divided than the worst case scenarios. i predicted the future secretary of state, the future national security adviser, these are people that talk in the same way, that say that we cannot just capitulate. i don't know president elect trump that well. i don't know him at all, but

the idea that he wants to be seen as weak -- that he signs a deal that leads to the collapse of ukraine, that sounds like the american withdrawal out of afghanistan that he has criticized so roundly. so i think there is an opportunity for a real debate here that would not lead to complete appeasement of putin, but might lead to a lasting peace deal, and most certainly, there are some around him that share that view come as well. >> let's go to the middle east a little bit, mark leibovich, and talk about elon musk as liaison between the u.s. and iran. >> okay. it is one of the many wildcards at work here. mike just referred to the wildcards of marco rubio and incoming national security advisers. there are more traditional sort of people who take more of a measured view of the ukraine conflict. elon musk in iran, this is not something people thought about one week or one month ago. all of a sudden, we have one

wildcard. it is one of the hottest zones in the world. this is exactly the kind of transition, if you call it that, to expect. and, there can be something good to talk about. a potential nobel peace prize. the next day, the next hour, the next minute, you talk about elon musk going to iran, this is the kind of chaotic view of the road you would expect coming into something like this. >> ambassador, you got a take on that? >> no. which is to say, i agree. this is a chaotic time. the idea that elon musk would be our back channel to iran, that was not on my bingo card when they won the election. it seems exotic to me. how about i put it

diplomatically? but certainly, this is the trump era. in some ways, it could lead to creative ideas, but it could also lead to very disastrous ideas, and let's just wait. let's not get ahead of our skis here. i don't predict he will be the special envoy. if i'm wrong, we will come back and talk about it. >> mike, any thoughts from the biden team on that news? >> i think that they look at the kind of diplomats that president biden has put in place, officially and in unofficial capacities, former senators, longtime colleagues, people with diplomatic experience, and president biden is someone that cares deeply about foreign policy and probably has deep concerns. i will put that mildly about these kinds of moves. >> thank you very much, everyone.

still to come, how the cease-fire deal with hezbollah could affect israel's potential agreement with hamas. and a string of bomb threats against lawmakers. we are back in 90 seconds. seco. [♪ take a little ♪] giving without expecting something in return. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪]

(vo) this black friday, verizon will turn your old or broken phone into a gift. anyone can trade in any phone, in any condition. and get samsung galaxy s24+, and watch and tab, all three on us. only on verizon. we are a few days in to the cease-fire between lebanon and israel -- really, hezbollah and israel.

some folks are asking what it could mean for the war in gaza, and if it would put pressure on hamas to agree to israel's terms. joining us now, matt bradley. matt, i don't know if you were listening to the last conversation, but i will refrain from asking you about elon musk as a back channel to iran. we will leave that to the side. >> reporter: thank you. >> tell me about whether this could put any pressure on hamas to come to the table. does hezbollah folding mean anything to them? >> reporter: yeah, katy, we were talking about how a couple of months ago, this was supposed to be the other way around. there was supposed to be a deal between hamas and israel. that would be the weight to a deal between hezbollah and israel. it is being reverse engineered. it does look as though hamas is more isolated than ever, although they have been isolated for quite a long time. the fact that has the law is no

longer in the mixed doesn't necessarily change all of that from hamas's calculations. this has been an effort for the better part of the last year that was led by hamas that was entirely of hamas's own making. it was hamas leading the charge. they hoped -- and we understand this from various reports that hamas would weigh in more forcefully right after october 7th, that iran might weigh in more forcefully, but hamas didn't get their wish. there was a minor skirmish that lasted for the better part of a year, in the past two months, we have seen that fight looking up in ferocity with the killing of the head of hezbollah hassan nasrallah. we are hearing that the egyptians are leading the charge, sending a delegation to tel aviv with a security proposal. it looks as though they're prepared to do so again.

we heard from arabic media that hamas is planning on going to cairo to consult with egyptian diplomats a potential for a cease-fire. we have heard also from the prime minister of israel and from joe biden, both of them saying that they are in favor and hope they can push for some deal in the gaza strip. whether or not that happens, well, it has been evasive this long. >> what is going on in aleppo? there is news out of syria. >> reporter: this is a real shock. we saw this islamist movement backed by allies, also backed by turkey, decided that now is the time to launch a major offensive, for the first time in several years, ever since there was something of a peace treaty brokered by the turks and the russians back in 2020. now, it looks as though they're taking the initiative again,

going after the regime of bashar al-assad. they might not necessarily come so forcefully to the defense of their allies in damascus. that might have been part of the calculations. they decided to launch this attack. they might have seen what is going on here in lebanon, with hezbollah badly beaten by the israelis, even though they say this is a victory point now, on the back foot, the iranian regime hasn't had any lasting success in mobilizing their so- called axis of resistance. and so now, it looks as though with of the iranians not as powerful, hezbollah not as powerful, the russians distracted in ukraine, and with other global issues, this might have been the moment that this group and their allies decided they could get the better of iran and its proxies.

>> matt bradley, in beirut for us. you so much point they were bomb threats to the trump transition team. now, there are a bunch of bomb threats to democrats. who they are, and what is going on. next. on. next.

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>> you need your morning joe. weekdays at 6:00, only on msnbc. five members of connecticut's congressional delegation, all democrats, received bomb threats at their homes yesterday, as they were

preparing to celebrate things giving. police say that the investigations are ongoing. this new round of threats follow similar once made against members of president elect trump's incoming admin station this week point joining us now, nbc news capitol hill correspondent ryan nobles and andrew desiderio. >> they are similar to the ones threatening the trump cabinet. they were threats that police and law enforcement followed up. they found no evidence of a credible threat. in addition to the entire democrat congressional delegation from connecticut, we are also learning that the congressman from rhode island

seth magaziner said that there was nothing to be found. the s.w.a.t.-ing incidents seem to be on the rise. there could be a disastrous consequence. right now, the fbi is being tightlipped about what they have determined and learned about this investigation. the only thing that they have set in a statement is that, quote, the fbi is working with our state and local partners on this matter. no further details of the investigation will be released at this time. we know that it is something that the u.s. capitol police is interested in. they warned them about the peripheral -- proliferation of these threats, telling them to be on guard and to be in contact with local law enforcement if they think, for

any reason, that their family could be at threat. as politics have gotten more divisive, we have seen this more and more overtime. in the early rounds of these threats, none of them seem to be serious enough where someone's life was in danger, but it is something that political figures continue to have to deal with on a regular basis. >> all right. let's go back to congress, more broadly. they are coming back from recess next week. andrew, what is your expectation? >> they have a lot on their plate for the year end -- sort of, last train leaving the station, as they call it. they have to worry about funding the government. they have to pass the annual defense authorization bill to -- and government funding is always an issue. it is treated as a partisan football, but what they are trying to do right now is kick the can for a few months to potentially february or sometime in early march, as well, to extend existing

funding and to give the new congress, who will be president donald trump in the white house, of course, a chance to fund the government numb. some republicans think this is a smart policy. the idea is that it lets them put their mark on this at the outset of the new administration. the flipside is that it puts a very difficult issue on congress's plate right smack in the middle of the first 100 days of the trump presidency, when republicans are talking about their desire to do big things in terms of their agenda. >> ryan, not to interrupt you, andrew, i remember the same game playing out five years ago, and it not going well, to kick the can down the road, and the republicans having a hard time passing a budget the first time donald trump came into

office. >> if there is anything we have learned about the members of congress, they don't tend to learn lessons from their past mistakes. every sigel time we come against a funding deadline, they are waiting until the last minute to get anything done, rather than having substantive negotiations. the trump administration has learned some lessons from the first time around and will be a bit more prepared to go into these funding fights with a little bit more of a long-term plan, as far as what they want to execute, and what their biggest priorities are, you know, to andrew's point, they want to have a clean slate to start things off because they are going to have some major asks of congress during these first two years. including how they are going to pay for this mass deportation plan, which could run into the hundreds of millions, maybe even billions of dollars. that is not going to be an easy ask, even with control of

congress. both the house and the senate, if they try to squeeze it into a reconciliation package. that can be difficult, as well. they have a lot of decisions to make, and not very much time to make it. that process begins when they come back in december and take advantage of this lame duck repeat. >> how much of the first time around should we expect? donald trump kept having infrastructure. it became a bit of a joke last time. are there expectations that we will have these big theme weeks again and congress is going to, i don't know -- what is the expectation for covering this version of a republican- controlled washington? >> i remember it well.

you can't take any of that off the table in terms of possibilities, but one thing that donald trump has shown, and those close to him, within his inner circle, as they tend to not understand the realities of congress. you sought many times during the first trump presidency, donald trump and those close to them calling senate republicans to get rid of the filibuster so they can pass legislation with a simple majority, the budget reconciliation process, whereby they will try to extend most if not all of the trump era tax cuts. obviously, that does not jive with the reality on capitol hill, with the republicans saying they want to get rid of the filibuster. oftentimes, what donald trump pushes republicans to do on capitol hill, they acquiesce, but it stems from the fact that he doesn't understand many of the realities that govern the way things work on capitol hill. >> all right. andrew desiderio, ryan nobles. it is going to be an interesting few years. coming up, what the weather looks like this weekend as millions of americans had home after thanksgiving. ter thanks ugh.

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the northeast is cold today. temperatures, dropping. winter storms, approaching point lake effect snow. for the rest of us, that could mean some travel delays. joining us now, need jake -- meteorologist angie lassman.

we are going to see some delays for chicago and detroit. they are piling up. the rest of the country looks pretty good. in the east and west, it is not going to be an issue in most of the country. notice >> 75 and i-90. those are spots where you will likely see whiteout conditions. the lake effect showers are ongoing. i would expect these roadways to be difficult to travel in the coming days, too, but good news, everywhere else. up and down the east coast, out west. things look pretty good. the great lakes is where things will ramp up in the next couple of days. you can see the satellite picture showing downwind of the lakes. all of that snow is continuing. this is something that sticks with us for the coming days. 6 million people right now under these winter alerts. we have incredible snow rates happening .3 inches per hour.

we are dealing with likely zero visibility in a lot of these spots. where you see the winter alerts is where we will run into hazardous travel on the roadways. we got warm waters in the lake. mid 40s and upper 40s and even into the 50s in some spots. when you get the warm water and the cold air coming off of it, that creates all this moisture to fall in the way of snow. that is happening downwind of the lake. we have seen governor hopeful issue an emergency for those counties south of lake ontario. it gives us some of the first big snow of the season along i- 81, syracuse, watertown, rochester, you name it. these locations will pick up a lot of snow between now and monday. by the way, some of those amounts could be anywhere close to four and five feet. some spots in ohio. some spots in pennsylvania and new york, nearing one foot of

snow, and we have a lot more time to go with this lake effect snow machine ongoing. this is something we do for the great lakes. a larger part of the country is going to see the arctic air sweeping in from canada and leaving us with the potential for some below freezing temperatures as far south as georgia. you can see how powerful this is going to be. it shows as we get started for the saturday morning temperatures. in the teens in omaha. chicago, you're going to wake up to quite the temperature of 14 degrees but you add in the windchill and we have a one degree feels like temperature. 19 for columbus. and look at atlanta. you are looking up tomorrow, 28 degrees. below freezing, but you are feeling like 22. extra layers are needed, not just for the morning hours, but as we take a big picture look through the next couple of days, notice these 10 to 20 degree temperatures are below average for those afternoon highs. the warmest point of the date for chicago on saturday, 26 degrees, but it, of course,

will be chilly in the early hours. you're not getting past the mid- 20s or upper 20s by the time you round out the weekend. so upper -- extra layers, for sure. in nashville, you had 46 degrees on saturday and sunday and your chillier by the time that sunday rolls around in your back to work with a high of 41 degrees point 30s for saturday, sunday, and monday in lake charles. you're going to deal with temperatures below freezing for saturday. we get right around that freezing mark for sunday and we see a slight uptick, if you want to call it that, to 36 degrees on monday. new york city, you're not left out of this. sunday, it will be a little chillier. we keep that going even into the 50s in atlanta. that is feeling like winter. we are going full force into this december -like feel as we wrap up the weekend. >> are we going to get snow this year in new york? >> that is that they question. i would say yes.

i'm going to go with yes. it seems like the pattern is setting up for that. there is a lot of uncertainty with it, but if i say it, if i manifest it, it will happen, right? >> my kids want to go sledding. >> me too. i'm with your kids. black friday has changed how small businesses, -- businesses, big and small, are dealing with it. th it. weeks. tremfya blocks a key source of inflammation. at one year, many people experienced remission... and some saw 100% visible healing of their intestinal lining. serious allergic reactions and increased risk of infections may occur. before treatment, your doctor should check you for infections and tb. tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms or if you need a vaccine. healing is possible with tremfya. ask your doctor about tremfya today. ♪

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black friday, and it's time to take advantage of all the sales for your christmas shopping list. but wait a second, weren't those shoes on sale last week, too? brian cheung is here to bring it down. >> amazon, target, and walmart are offering discounts to consumers. >> the 25th of november -- that is less than a fortnight point >> they put the onus on the shopper to see if the prices are perfect now. >> it says 20% off. that is actually the price it has been all year. >> black friday remains the best time of year for the best discounts, according to adobe analytics. >> because consumers perceive

the best discounts, they make sure they are offering some of their best priced items during that period. >> we wanted to see for ourselves, tracking the price tags on some gifts you might be eyeing. take the newest airpods pros. the best deal we saw was this weekend, 30 bucks off. the same trend for this coffee maker, which is the cheapest it has been in months. >> other items like these sneakers, these toys, or this tv, haven't been significantly discounted in recent weeks. >> i think some brands may say it is on sale, however, it is like the same price. they make the price higher and say it is on sale. >> take advantage of price matching in stores to get the best deals. a little bit of homework, going a long way this holiday season. brian cheung, nbc news. >> too much homework. i want no homework.

okay. between black friday and cyber monday, another notable shopping day. small business saturday. maya eaglin talked to storeowners about getting ready for the day. maia. >> reporter: hey, katie. yeah. with holiday shopping and black friday in full swing, it is important to know that small business saturday is tomorrow. this started back in 2010, but there are a lot of mom and pop business owners who are working really hard to keep up the enthusiasm. take a look. >> this time of year, some things never change. >> i like the ninja turtles. >> barbie dolls. >> a wedding dress. >> children around the world are making their lists, and holiday shoppers are filling their carts. >> it is not just the online stores looking to sell. smaller stores are, too. an estimated 3 billion toys are

sold annually in the u.s. that adds up to about $41 billion in sales. we turned to the toy experts. >> >> reporter: this is one of the few remaining stores in the city. >> my husband said, why don't we buy the toy shop? we were all like, really? >> there used to be a toy store called dinosaur hill that was here for 30 years. that caused during the pandemic. >> reporter: how have you all been competitive against big stores? >> we try to have a lot of stuff in the shop that you cannot find at major retailers. >> i think people want to come and support something that is a community. part of their community. it is a way to feel like they're part of something. >> reporter: they are not wrong.

in 2023, u.s. consumers spent about $17 billion on small business saturday. it is not just new york city. susan hey opened that hate market with her late husband john in 1976. >> well, it is my life. when i went into business, someone told me that most small businesses and within a year. i said, i'm going to stick it out for five years. and that was 50 years ago. >> reporter: from puzzles and stuffed animals to puzzles and creative crafts, susan says the holidays are actually her slow season, with less folks on the island. >> in the summer, we are jammed with people. >> reporter: customers grew up are sought their kids grow up at the store. but we have to come here because they think i own the hay market. >> reporter: why do you think it is important to support small businesses? >> just to keep the local community going.

it is really difficult in today's date to work against the big box stores, so the fact that you are coming into a mom- and-pop store, you are supporting their families. in turn, they support the community. >> reporter: these small toy stores might feel like a relic of the past, but maybe we can all bring that magic back together. >> reporter: these business owners told me that although they love the work, they have relied on other revenue streams to keep their businesses afloat during the slow seasons. now, if you would like to support a small business in your area, keep an eye out for stickers that say locally owned on google maps and other search engines when you're looking to shop. katy. >> here is how i look at it. by less, but by better. buy from the shops in your neighborhood, if you can.

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