>> hi, everyone, we are so grateful you are here and joining us, with the election in the rearview mirror and what promises to be a turbulent year ahead, now might be a good time to take a deep breath and get our bearings, to get really clear about what is coming and what we can do about it, what role we can play, however small. let's remember, a legendary documentarian said on this program, history doesn't repeat itself but it often rhymes and we have reason to believe that is probably going to happen when donald trump takes office once again in january. starting with immigration, the president-elect ran on a promise of mass deportations, half of the republican national convention was blanketed with signs that read, mass deportations now.

jd vance famously taunted undocumented immigrants telling them to pack your bags, you are going home in six months. this might also be a good time to remember what our dear friend, rachel maddox likes to say, watch what they do, not what they say. and what donald trump did right out of the gate is a .2 of the most unapologetic defenders of his draconian and even by trump standards, controversial family separation policy. stephen miller who will be the deputy chief of staff of policy and tom homan will be the border czar, and when it comes to them, we don't have to guess what they plan to do, tom homan says it all out loud. >> so you are carrying out a targeted enforcement operation, grandma is in the house and she is undocumented, does she get arrested, too.>> it depends, we are going to remove people that are going to be departed.

>> families can be deported together. >> why should a child who is an american citizen have to pack up and move to a country that they don't know? >> because their parent obviously entered the country illegally, so he created a crisis.>> there you have it, whole families, including grandma deported, children potentially as collateral damage, as he said. that is what they are saying in all likelihood is coming. and for that we look to our friend and colleague, jacob, who is on the front lines of covering this humanitarian crisis during the first trump presidency. the children and kids were ripped away from their families during the first separation

crackdown.>> i got home, i was home for a couple of days and was at a kids birthday party when i got another car -- call saying we are going to let you into the epicenter of separations. that place was called ursula, the central processing center in mcallen, texas. i still remember that, i was in a light blue button-down shirt, i had my notepad. that was the time where i saw what had been talked about and rumored in the media, kids locked up in cages, sitting on these concrete or linoleum floors. they thought that showing the world separations

through the eyes of people like me, they would scare people that were attempting to come from coming and scare congress into allowing them to have more strict immigration laws. >> so, as jacob reported, they thought showing this was the point, so showing the cruelty was also a tool, and the voice you heard, interviewing jacob's filmmaker, errol morris, they said they teamed up to create a new film called separated. i was happy to have jacob and errol here to join me, to show

how unprecedented this policy was point >> this represents something different and something new and it's important to remember and acknowledge that fact, when you are separating a two month old nursing infant from his mother, that is a big difference, and you can hear the head of the department of homeland security, the secretary tell us that we are not doing anything unusual, we are just following the law. and why didn't they do this during the obama administration? obama deported lots of people, why didn't they do this? because they discussed it and decided it was immoral.>> they discussed it and decided it was immoral, that is what stopped obama, that is the dividing line. it is possible that it is dividing them. so what do we do now? joining me now is jacob

sooboroff. jacob, i start with you, the book and the film are all done without knowledge that trump would be re-elected. he has been, and i wonder if you can just start with what you think your body of reporting will be in the second term, what has been committed to on paper and the kinds of people that are in place and what, with your knowledge and expertise you expect them to do with family separation. >> first of all, thank you for doing this special broadcast about this, i think what a republican appointed judge called, george w. bush appointed judge called one of

the most shameful chapters in the history of our country, you can't understand what will happen unless you look back at what happened in the first and simply, you mentioned those signs that we also at the republican national convention that i got to see for myself, that said mass deportation now. the baseline that everybody needs to understand and remember and internalize is that mass deportation is family separation, it is just family separation by another name, it is ripping children away from their parents, taking them away at their schools in their communities, in a way that orders a magnitude larger than the 5500 children who were deliberately taken away from their parents according to ursula. and the american

academy of pediatrics said it was government sanctioned child abuse and if we think about, and i hope one day, all 5500 of those children will be able to tell their story of what the trump administration deliberately did to them and what they deliberately did was put them in the cages that you see on your screen right now for no other reason than to scare people from coming away, coming to this country because they had some of the most desperate situations on planet earth, in order to basically, save their lives and certainly come here for a better one. none of this was activism, cruelty was the point and now they are supervising -- super sizing what they did in the first term. >> jacob, if you look at the players on the board and with your knowledge of where their ambitions, for lack of a better

word, worst i need, what is your assessment of how capable this new team will be in carrying out mass deportations?>> we both learned in the making of separated, and reporting in the book, that during the first trump term, they wanted to separate maybe as many as 20 or 30,000 people from their parents at the border if they were able to do so and only because of the work of the aclu and immigration attorneys on the front line, who are as important as any first responders, these are literally life-saving roles that these people are doing, looking out for children and parents. if it wasn't for them, it would have been far worse. and you've got tom homan, who kayla dickerson says about family separation as the intellectual father of the separation policy and was pushing for it as early as the obama administration. and you have stephen miller, who was calling to non-senate confirmed political appointees,

low-level people within the government in order to coordinate on the immigration enforcement priorities of the first trump term. and i mean ripping children apart from their parents and the list goes on. we don't know the full staffing of these agencies but there are many of them, the department of homeland security, the department of justice, the department of health and human services, all of them had a hand in replicating the family separation policy and all of them will have a hand again and what happens to parents and children who have come to this country in the second administration. we are talking about literally hundreds of officials potentially that will have the ability to influence in the second term, some of them may have been a part of the first one. others were a part of the first one and try to resist and maybe throw them out of government in the second term. all of that is going to play

out.>> in the film, i had the chance to talk to both of you in a screening this week and the film makes clear that even with what trump perceives to be a mandate is debatable, as to what he is talking about here, he was stymied as jacob said, by republican appointed judges. just talk about the legal hurdles facing him as he starts with this plan, as jacob said, which is essentially family separation by another name. >> yeah, when people see really egregious stuff, whether it is judges are looking at the legality or the public, i think they will push back and i think you are right, whatever mandate he has on immigration may be to reform policies, we want reform policies, border policies more generally but when you cross the line, the american public tends to say wait, that is not what we meant.

we put the evidence before the judge and he called the policy brutal, as jacob said, a shameful period in our history, we educated them about the case and i think that is what the public learned and they took to the streets peacefully but said not in our name. so we'll see what happens going forward. the legal hurdles of family separation, we know ironclad consent decree says no more family separation, we will see if the trump administration tries to get around it but there are other ways they can go about it on a mass scale and force these parents to decide, am i going to take my u.s. citizen child to a country they have never seen before or leave them behind? they provide on this enormous amount of discretion on the president and if they want to be harsh, they can be harsh but

in the past, both administrations have said we don't need to tear families apart, we don't need to go after non-criminals who are working hard and the trump administration is saying we are going to deport millions of people, we don't care if it is grandma or if they have u.s. citizen children. the whole country is going to have to push back on that and say that is not what we meant.>> he ran on building a wall, which doesn't put the family, or the family member here illegally in the mind of the voter. to jacob's reporting over this summer, people waved around mass deportation as an applause line at his rallies, how far are they entering into the fear of the asylum seeker, how far do you think we have traveled as a country between 16 and 24? >> that is the right question, i do think we have traveled farther, and i'm depressed about have -- having only three

decades and i think this is the worst, but there are lines the american public will not let be crossed and i think the challenge for us is to talk about the human stories and not let this just be abstract principles or statistics. what we saw during the first family separation was just unconscionable. a little boy was taken away, a four-year-old boy who had glasses and they took him away but they didn't get his glasses . all day long, the mother was thinking, are they going to give him another pair of glasses ? an 18-year-old boy being stuffed in the car and the mother could see him craning his neck as the car drove away. and even the families that are now reunited, little children just worrying about being taken away in the middle of the night, we were just working with a

three-year-old boy who stands by the window every day to look to see if men are going to take him away again, that is what i hope the american public will realize, these are just not abstract principles, they are real human lives. it doesn't mean we don't reform the system but let's have some amount of humanity where we can deal with it.>> it is unbearable to hear, when it amounts to emotional torture to children in the name of u.s. immigration policy. i wonder what your hopes are for the impact of this film now on the eve of the second trump presidency. >> the operative word is humanity, this is an amazing organization in california that takes people down to the border, this is about humanity, so they can see for themselves who is impacted by these policies and i will never forget reporting with you, i can remember the chills saying this right now, in the summer of 18, between june 18th and june 20th, from the moment i walked into that 1500 -- excuse me, 250,000 square foot walmart where they

were holding young boys, or when i went into the facility in mcallen, texas that saw the video, children locked up in cases, laying on those linoleum floors, in some cases security contractors in a watchtower. i have never seen anything like it and i don't think the american public had ever been exposed to anything like that, certainly not to the degree of the family separation policy and what it led to was not even a bipartisan outrage, it was really universal. where people all around the world came out into the streets, it didn't matter your political party or persuasion, no demographic barrier mattered, the pope spoke about this in a way where everybody, no matter if you are far right or far left, after the condemned what the trump administration was doing to these children and sadly, people have wanted to know

about what is going on with their immigration system because of the way immigration has looked these last four years of the biden administration and my hope is we can come back to a place where we have a common sense, clear conversation about who the people are that are coming to this country, why they are coming to this country. they are all fellow human beings, and we all did it, we did it together in the summer of 2018 and i know we can do it together again and that is part of the reason why we made this film, to remind people in this moment of what happened and what was possible in the negative sense and also the inspirational positive sense about how people within the government fought back. and it was the one significant policy reversal of the last trump term . they didn't like the site and the feeling of those families being separated, and signing the order reversing the policy with kirstjen nielsen standing over him, and that action by

the american public is possible again with something like this. >> you are right, and i want to ask both of you to stick around, i'm going to show more of this film and the heroes, people like yourselves who help tell this story. also ahead, what does this mean right now for the more than 4 million children who are u.s. citizens living with a mom or dad who is undocumented, wondering what is going to happen to their family if and when donald trump unleashes another family separation crackdown. and a tool that each of us has at our fingertips right now, this inflection point, something to keep your eyes on. all those stories and more after we continue from a quick break. don't go anywhere. [ a little ♪]

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>> i hope if he is elected and does family separation again, the outrage is the same, i hope that the american public has not become desensitized to it. five years later, we are still trying to reunite up to 1000 children. it is not over, these children are not back with their parents and they are suffering, but he must believe that we are past the point of the public getting outraged again because he has said i will do it again.>> our answer to that question very soon, jacob soboroff and errol morris back to us.

your question hinged on how their judges respond, likening that policy to child abuse and trauma. there's reasons although things are still in place, whether we are the exact same country is an open question but we still have an ability to do something. back to the kinds of people who are on the board, there's homan and miller , also kristi noem, none of those appointments have the ability to deprive the country of the breaks of independent judges, which is public outrage, which is journalists invited into the facility to see the policy. but, what on a logistical level

are they talking about in terms of having to display incompetence on the levels we are seeing? >> i think there will be logistical difficulties, whether they have been working on it for four years and preparing like they say they have, we'll have to see, but i think, one thing i will say is right now is the time for everyone to take stock of where they are going to be and not to despair. but i think people need to think, well i can do one little thing. i always worry especially with young people that they think, this is too big for me to do anything so i'm just going to sit it out. just do any little thing, take one case, one person who has faced removal back to us, we

have been clear eyed about what we can accomplish in courts but it is also going to take a national effort, i think any lawyer will tell you, the courts are one part of it but it takes a national movement so there are going to be harsh things that are going to happen that we are not going to stop and we are clear about that but there are egregious things like family separation, we all need to come together and say well, that's not what we meant about immigration reform. >> the other piece is that there are people in the government who have come face- to-face with people impacted, let me play another clip from the film.>> when you become aware of separations, our field staff started to notice very young kids, anyone below five, that is kind of unusual, right? most often when you have a kid

that young they are traveling with a parent. jim delacruz was the supervisor of all the federal field staff, he had his team keep a spreadsheet. it was growing, growing, growing with the number of kids. >> one of the issues i raised was, we would run out of beds for babies. we were seeing so many babies but they can't tell you they are separated. we were very concerned that some children separations would be permanent. because the parents were being removed from the united states through deportation so the

families made the journey together but the children will remain in the united states while the parents return to their home country. >> these are state created portions. these are families separated by action of the federal government , as a tool of immigration policy.>> that boggles my mind, that government workers had to take that tragic reality and send an email that said we are seeing so many babies but the babies can't tell you they were separated. how do you find the parents of the baby? >> that is one of the problems, the judge commented, it seems like the federal government keeps better track of property than children. that was one of the major parts of this that we had no records, so we are still searching for some families, six years later. the trump administration gave us these records, some where we

think the parent might be in this country or at this address, so we created a steering committee with three ngos, the women's refugee commission, with a great law firm, and they help to the families and did unbelievable but sometimes it requires going town to town looking for these parents. now we have little children who have been without their parents for six years, they will not even remember their parents and some of them are coming back now and there's no relationship anymore and that is so heartbreaking to see the parent trying to rebuild the relationship. everyone talks about the children's trauma and that is understandable but also the parents, imagine the parent, where the first thing the child comes back and says, mommy, do you love me enough to keep me? why didn't you fight for me? when i went to el salvador, a man said his child got off the plane and the first thing he

said was why didn't you want me anymore? so there is so much to rebuild and it was so gratuitous and the idea that the parents weren't going to come at all, because that was the purpose, we were making so cruel that people would not come anymore. when i talked to families and i said would you have come anyway if you knew your child was going to be taken, they would just shrug and say what choice do i have? asylum has been in our law forever and we said we would never again send people back to danger without at least screening them and that is what people are trying to eliminate now, no screenings even. not even a basic hearing. so they are trying to apply for asylum and it was just a flat out gratuitous cruelty, the worst thing i have seen in my 30 years doing this work.>> does it take a toll on you?

>> i think it takes a toll on everyone doing this work but ultimately you see the client and you can't really say well, they are suffering, that is not to minimize the advocates on the ground seeing it every day, they are really going through a lot but ultimately what keeps you going is seeing these families trying to persevere and how much they are going through and you know you need to keep fighting.>> it is a lesson for anyone feeling disappointed about the election, that there is somebody hurting more than you. thank you so much. the film is incredible. >> jacob will stick around, we will talk with jacob and two experts about what trump's promise for the future of mass deportations means for families and for the broader american economy. don't go anywhere.

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>> if you believe that immigrants are an existential threat to the american way of life, and i do think that is how some of these folks think, then once you have exhausted all the ordinary things the law permits, then all that's left for those people for whom anything is possible is to do

something extraordinary in its cruelty. and that is what happened here.>> extraordinary in its cruelty, that is what happened here and that is what could possibly happen here again. joining our conversation is dr. william lopez, a professor at the university of michigan school of public health, author of the book separated, family and community and the aftermath of an immigration raid. his forthcoming book, ice in the heartland, focusing on the communitywide impacts of immigration raids at work sites. also andrea florez, she served as an immigration policy adviser for the obama and biden administrations, she is now a bipartisan group that advocates for reforming immigration policy. andrea, let me start with you, some of this is made possible by the fact that immigration

animates voters to vote for politicians that advocate the harshest policies available. and the facts in the november election are that kamala harris is the one who backed a very tough, almost all republican policy ideas, bills that would have solved the problem are going away, and trump killed that bill. but it feels like the debate rages around emotions, not facts like that. what is the policy solution that gets at the emotional rage people feel around this issue? >> one of the biggest issues in this election is democrats weren't campaigning on a policy solution that voters could understand, because what voters have seen for the last four years is that president biden promised to keep families together, pursue immigration reform, what they actually saw

over the last four years was gross mismanagement at the border. and an inability to respond with governor abbott, when he started busting asylum- seekers into the cities and the answer was, there was nothing to be done about these challenges because the law was broken. but, voters chose president biden's immigration agenda once over trump because he promised to bring humanity and order but those promises were not delivered. so the vice president campaign on the bill that was a d.c. insider talking point didn't really address what communities had experienced when suddenly there were more immigrants in the communities and no federal plan to welcome them, house them, connect them with work permits and that was one of the biggest strategic missteps the last four years, democrats need to get back to talking about an affirmative vision for immigration reform and one that connects to what voters are concerned about today.

>> what does that sound like, what is the message and can you reverse the gains that the republicans and donald trump made among people that have never voted for republican in their life but they are so frustrated that nothing seems to be happening. >> you can absolutely rivers the gains because some of the longtime policy goals in the democratic party remained popular, so legalizing long- term and documented is a popular issue. keeping families together and protecting them is a popular issue. but you didn't hear democrats campaign on that, you saw them to attempt to mimic what republicans have been saying for eight years which is that immigration has enforced every policy problem. what jd vance talked about the housing problem, where was the response to that and where was the narrative the federal reserve was talking about, that economists were talking about, that if it weren't for the

immigrants, economic recovery would have been much worse however, democrats have to resent to the interest of american communities, because if there is not a plan for when we welcome immigrants, if we are not working with mayors and governors and making sure that the impacts on the working class on people of color, on other immigrant communities who are already there, then you can see tensions rising. and good, moderate immigration policies that allow people to come in in an orderly and predictable way is far more popular than what president trump is promising to do which is potentially remove the parents of 4 million u.s. children. those extreme policies have not been popular and i do believe that is what they are voting against. >> let me ask you about what is ahead and how it will impact the economy potentially in workplaces. >> that's a great question, as

we all know, immigrants are a critical part of this economy, and the removal will leave much of this work often undone, it is important to note that there's also an element of fear and what we call spillover effects of immigration enforcement and it is not only the deportations themselves that shape the lives of families in the u.s. but also the fear of these deportations, when families are scared of the possibility of deportation, they go to stores less, they drive less, they engage in the normal commerce in their community less and they use social support services less, impacting their health and costing the economy later, too.>> i will ask all of you to stick around, we will be back on the other side. i'm right at home, out here on the land.

and i'm in my lane on the shoulder of the interstate. because this is where i come from. i've been showing up here for nearly 200 years. and i can't wait to see what's next. hats off to the future. nothing runs like a deere™

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>> during the obama

administration, the idea had come up in dhs and secretary johnson said that they would not separate children from their parents, it was very clear to me that i was not going to win any arguments. i did say these policies would have the effect of overwhelming office of refugee resettlement capacity. it would lead to a backup into border patrol, because i know that is something that had persuasive value. the answer i got was only at first, then there will be a deterrent effect. i took that back to my superiors in the department of health and human services. i spent a little bit of time talking about how it would be harmful to children, but frankly i didn't spend as much time on that as i did on how it would be harmful to the program, because harm to children was a part of the point. they believed it would terrify families into not coming.

>> we are back. i wonder, bill, if you could just talk about the asymmetry, there are drawbacks to these policies that at a humanity and apathy level that are universally important but there are policy aims that rely on that revulsion and i wonder how you outmaneuver policies designed to have the emotional impact they are having and still protect people if that makes sense. >> i think this is an excellent point, what we saw during the trump administration is that absolutely the cruelty was the point and much of the immigration enforcement tools selected by former president trump were meant to be visible and were meant to be deterrence and we saw this in the family separation crisis on the texas mexico border but also what happened in the summer of 2018 at the same time. they are meant to be visible

spectacles that change the behavior of immigrant communities and at the same time as gathering energy among this space, trump originally proposed the border wall but that was too expensive and laborious, so saw smaller momentary child separation and raids, smaller moments throughout the country, this was a part of the point. to your question, what do we do about these policies that are meant to be visible? we can often combat them by telling stories and doing what we can to be visible about their impacts on the other side of this. jacob and errol did a great job in their documentary, showing the separations and what happens on the southern border. we also need to continue having these discussions and engage in research that shows ultimately what the harms of this immigration enforcement is, and

also across communities regardless of race and immigration status. >> it comes back to the body of reporting ahead for you, my friend, and i wonder, if you look at the deployment, both the cruelty, not even sparing children and the revulsion of the public, projected onto what is promised, what is ahead which is mass deportations on a scale that in human history has very few chapters to even turn to. are they planning on using trains, buses, who drives them? are they planning on using planes? when ron desantis moved a few dozen people around, it had a paralyzing effect, it has sweeping societal and economic impacts and i wonder if you are seeing any flickers of objection from the business community, business leaders?

>> i think we have a duty to do exactly what we have done in the first trump administration and during the biden administration as well, just holding a mirror up to society and show them exactly what is happening, whether or not they want to see it themselves. i do think people have wanted to know less over the course of the last four years about what this looks like and it is a profound honor to be on here with dr. lopez and andrea, they know more about this than almost anybody then i know can tell you about it, in ways far beyond i'm capable of. but you heard jonathan white refer to it in a movie, the obama administration deterrence, we have a duty to point out that deterrence has been the underlying philosophy of the united states immigration enforcement apparatus for decades, under democrats and republicans both. clinton built the first wave of border walls, george w. bush in

the wake of 9/11, also increasing exponentially in the size of border control. barack obama deported more than any president in the united states which is why donald trump was able to separate children from their parents like it was nothing, the system was set up in that way and as andrea said, president biden promised a fair and safe and orderly system, a humane system . what we ended up seeing was almost anything but, anybody can close their eyes and remember del rio, the haitians, i went to haiti to watch them get deported back to a country where many of them could be at risk of being killed because of the gang violence. i watched the biden administration deport people to haiti. and when we look at what the next four years is going to be like for folks in our line of work, it is a duty to show

people that policies like this hasn't stopped people from coming to this country and they probably never will, which is why a new approach is what we are looking for and what that would actually look like. >> we will continue to call on you, thank you for spending time with us today, we are going to sneak in one more break, jacob and i will be back on the other side. lainey wilson: in this family, we ask for help when we need it so we can help more children who really need it. families never receive a bill from st. jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food. but we can't help these kids without you. this holiday season, join our st. jude family. we need you. please donate now. [music playing]

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>> jacob, i think i sent this to you after the election, when i first saw the film, it was before we knew the outcome of the election, i watched it again after trump prevailed and won the popular vote and swept the swing states and after taking in all your reporting, with the convention of the mass deportation signs, i wonder if you can just contextualize our marching orders as a public and i know you feel like you have yours, you've got your mirror, but as a country, what is our marching order, what is our obligation to keep our eyes on this space?

>> more than anything, to keep our eyes open, i really feel like in the last four years the general public, a lot of us who were very invested in what was happening to the children during the trump administration, decided that we wanted to know less, it was too complicated, too messy, it was hard to see and understand, and that is what i wanted to do with errol, it is a forensic examination of the policy by an academy award winning team, but also a reminder of what this all looked like and how everyone came together in order to stop it and i think unless folks are paying attention, i know there is a desire to tune out and walk away from something people feel is scary or dangerous or a reminder of a very dramatic four years, now is not the time to do that, now is the time to open our eyes, and the immigrant defense while

center said we've got 200 lawyers ready to go right now. there are people on the front lines that are preparing for the type of deliberate cruelty and again, that is me as a journalist saying this, this is not my opinion. they are saying that it will come again and if you are turning away, you're not going to be able to react to it in a way that will stop them to doing what they wanted to do the first time around. >> and they want to know how they can help and not turn away. thank you for your journalism. thank you for spending this hour with us and for bringing us this film. and thank you for letting us into your homes doing these truly extraordinary times. extrai . hi everyone, it's 5:00 here in new york. i'm lisa menendez in for nicole wallace for a special holiday