i always take the kids out there too, we are going to see their mom. >> as for lissa, she went with us to the field where her niece spent her final moments . >> i miss carla, everybody does. i guess i try to do the best i can to make sure this does not happen to anybody else. >> carla represents so many other women. >> she does. >> are you going to keep fighting, keep searching? >> for sure. most definitely. i don't want another family to ever feel like how we felt. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm craig melvin. thank you for watching. watching.

hello, and welcome to this special holiday edition of "morning joe. " we are on tape this morning, bringing you some of our top, recent discussions. we will bring you one surrounding democratic ruben gallego, who defeated his republican challenger of the arizona senate race. senate democratic races ended up prevailing in three key battlegrounds, michigan, nevada, wisconsin, and arizona, all states that donald trump also won. speaking to reporters after his victory speech, he explained the reason he was able to win in a tough cycle for democrats. >> you have to earn every vote. this is a swing state. there are 300,000 more registered republicans than democrats, i needed to earn the support of all ericksonian's. so, i went and talked to everybody. i also didn't agree with them all the time, they

did not agree with me all the time, but we had respect full conversations, and at the end of the day, we walked away, sometimes we support it, sometimes we didn't. i had to make sure that people knew that i was out there, talking to them and fighting for them, because hopefully, at least then, we can build some trust. that is the only thing i will say. >> this morning, the "new york times" notes, after going decades without electing a democrat to the senate, arizona's voters have now does so in four successive elections, underscoring the state's shift from reliable conservative stronghold me to competitive battleground. voters back mitchell cinema in 2018, picked senator mark kelly in a special election in 2020, and elected him again in 2022. >> there are so many things to talk about him here. first of all, that start by saying that every poll is going to have democrats up by 47 like percent, and they are going to end up winning by 47 votes.

remember martha mcsally, supposedly to double digits and barely lost her race a couple of years ago to mark kelly? we have the same thing here where kari lake was down eight, 10, 12 points and it ended up being a really tight race. overall, a couple of things. if you are donald trump, this makes the size of your margin in those states even more impressive. because he outran democrats in all of these swing states. that is the first thing. the second thing, though, of course, and jim, you and i have been around a very long time and we have seen this. first two, four, five days after an election, you have the media's hair on fire saying, this was the greatest landslide, or this was the greatest defeat the republicans ever had, the greatest defeat the democrats ever had. you start looking at this, writing it down, republican senate

candidates lost in arizona. they lost in wisconsin. they lost in nevada. they lost in michigan. there were no senate races in georgia for them to lose. and north carolina, no senate races for them to lose, but there was a governors race, and the democrats won theirs. democrats won in every major swing state race they could win by in a year that donald trump just ran the board in all of these swing states in a way that was not even close. i'm curious what you think also of, again, there's just so much here, it is fascinating. what do you also make of how progressive gallego was? very progressive member of the house, winning in a state like arizona, who again, like we

quoted the times, outdid four democrats in a row? >> listen, donald trump has claimed, i think you called it an unprecedented mandate. you can claim a mandate, whether you win by 100 or 100 million. i think for democrats looking at results, obviously, trump performed fabulously in almost every single state and district. vice president harris way underperformed. that was the story of the election. what you are talking about here is, it goes back to we live in a 50-50 country. we have since 2000. we basically have a changed election every single period. what you are seeing in michigan, what you are seeing in wisconsin, what you are seeing in arizona is that 50-50 dynamic addressing politicians who are able to divorce themselves from biden and harris , because they are not necessarily seen as quote, unquote the federal government. they are trying to focus on

topics people in arizona are about, people in wisconsin care about. when democrats are doing their autopsy, i don't know, maybe i would look at the candidates who are wendy, figure out what are they talking about, what are they not talking about? and that is probably the roadmap to get back in power in the off year elections. >> a brilliant insight. look really at swing state democrats were talking about, what they are not talking about, and how they won. you know, this has always come down to the power of the presidential candidate, right? it is like when ronald reagan got elected, and i know i have said this a lot, but it bears repeating, given this news. megan was there and republicans are like, hey, we've got a new coalition. no. ronald reagan had the coalition. it was nontransferable that bill clinton won for 8 years, and then barack obama gets elected.

we are like, the obama majority , for the democrats, the rise of the ascendant, no! that was barack obama's majority . that was barack obama's mandate. here, we have the same thing with donald trump, who uniquely goes in and wins working-class voters, and wins the type of voters that democrats always want. and people are going, this is the new trump coalition, and it is going to rule for thousand-- no . it is specific to donald trump . it is not transferable. a lot of people thought hillary clinton could beat bill clinton, she could not beat bill clinton, because that was a unique set of political skills . you take reagan. you take obama. you take clinton. and now you take donald trump. they have a unique set of skills

, and it is not transferable. the fact that republicans-- we will put it in a positive sense , the fact that democrats won in arizona, with a very progressive candidate, won in wisconsin, won in nevada, won in michigan, in the senate races, won in north carolina in the gubernatorial race against of course a whack job, but they won all of these swing states. and i guess, in these major races are undefeated in swing states, because senate races in georgia or north carolina. and dave mccormick, of course, dave mccormick is the one exception to the rule. dave mccormick, as we have said on the show time and time again, is a really strong candidate. and he would have won two years ago, if donald trump would have endorsed him then. i know i am going on a lot, but this is really sort of looking

back and sort of the second look at what happened last week . this was not a republican landslide. this was a trump sweep. >> it was a trump sweep. when we said was an overwhelming victory, we are talking about his sweep of the swing states, which was overwhelming and decisive, course, no way in diminishing what the next four years could look like under donald trump. it is his washington for at least the next two years. we are seeing his appointments rolled out. we will get into what that means as well. what that means for women, what that means for immigrants, and you can go down the list. to your point, we've all heard the panic. i heard it yesterday. we were marching in the veterans day parade, on the subway to and from, people coming up worried and panicked, wanted to talk, i get all of that. what i have seen, something you and jim were saying, donald trump is worth about 3 million votes, the same margin hillary clinton beat him in '16 won by

the popular vote. if you look and say, what happened to the polling, they all finished them except effectively for arizona as marginal races, i will go through them. wisconsin, donald trump won by less than one point. michigan, he won by a point and a half, nevada by two points, pennsylvania by two points, georgia by two points, north carolina by three points, and arizona, 5 1/2 points. why do i say that? because, it was overwhelming in the sense that he won these states. if you actually look at who voted in the vote total, this was in fact as we have been saying for months and months, an incredibly close race. not by the electoral count, he won that widely, and he won all of those swing states impressively but if you need a reason to take a deep breath, this was a close race and the fight is still on if you are a democrat. >> no doubt about it. you look at arizona, it is fascinating. it is like a seven point swing between donald trump's five

point victory and ruben gallego 's two point victory. so much of it has to do with the candidate. the first hispanic senator in the state of arizona, a veteran, hispanic men voted for him in much higher numbers then they voted for kamala harris. a lots of different things going. you know, patty k, if you are donald trump this morning and you are seeing this news, this just seems to strengthen your hand with republicans and the organizing caucus going, listen, you guys can't win-- and women, you can't win these swing states. you lost in michigan. you lost in wisconsin. you lost in north carolina's gubernatorial race. he lost in arizona. you lost in nevada. out of all those states, it seems to me as he organizes republicans and he starts saying to me this is who you should

pick as your majority leader, and this is what you should do in the house, it seems to me, it only strengthens donald trump's and >> and kari lake , really ran as a mini me trump, ran very close to the president-elect. denied the results of the 2020 election, denied the results of her 2020 run for the governorship of arizona. did all of the classic trump things. prevaricate it on account of the issue of abortion, was super pro-federal ban, then ran back from that. and she still could not make it, because-- i have spent time with her. she is a skilled, political operative, but she is not donald trump. i think that is the message to the republican party from trump, this is my party and you need to do things my way. now, what his weight is, we are still going to have to find out, because it will depend on more of these appointments being actually confirmed. he

has taken over the party, and it does mean i think you are right, as the democratic party now goes into its autopsy of 2024, it has to think it has to fight the battle of 2028, not the last battle. it has to think, where's the party going to be in 2028? one of the bigger picture trends, take donald trump out of the picture for 2028, what are the trends we have seen from 2016 and 2020, and 2024, which of the groups that the democratic party has been losing, and why? work on that rather than, we've got to fight this candidate again, because he's not going to be there in 2028, and whoever replaces him may well not be as strong as he is. >> the other takeaway is election to nihilism is nontransferable. voters did not poll against donald trump that he never conceded 2020, he never acknowledged he lost. the big life candidate to ran in the 2020 midterms, including venue, it includes kari lake then. they all lost. now we have kari lake losing

again . some voters simply don't want to tolerate that, it seems, unless it comes from trump, some republicans you are right, there are some civil silver linings to democrats. they are able to win in the states, nevada, arizona, michigan, wisconsin, those are candidates who tailored their messages to individual states, defied some of the larger, national trends. pennsylvania has not been called yet. it does look like it is going republican. that is important because it would give them 53 seats in the senate, which allows trump at the republicans to lose susan collins occasionally, lose lisa murkowski occasionally, and still be able to get things done. those are the only two, at least for now, we think will defy at the white house. that will be really important as we get into a little later come as his appointments are starting to roll out and later on, we also have this week republicans picking a senate majority leader. there are some building blocks for democrats at that party autopsy well underway here just weeks since the election. >> and jump and hide, democrats

can look at arizona and i think take solace from the fact that they have now won four senate races there in a row after not winning any in a long time. let's talk about one swing state that republicans won in the senate races, and that is pennsylvania. man, put the big siren on top of pennsylvania, because it seems, if you look at party registration over the last couple of years, if you are going the way that iowa first went, then ohio, now, that seems to be moving eastward toward pennsylvania, that is getting more and more republican by the day. we will see if that trend keeps going. if the trend keeps going like it did over the last year or two, pennsylvania may in four years look like florida does now, which is, what's a swing state, not about as deep red, as crimson red as you can get.

>> maybe. it is still pretty much, and is a swing state. it was a close resort result. dave mccormick was a first-time candidate had a lot of money and a lot working for his advantage. needed a lot of outcome for a trump big win. elon musk campout where he put a lot of his own money and time into the race and they were able to squeak it out. that is what democrats have to figure out. the math is changing, the is changing. what are the tectonic shift that will progress? in the it looks like the country moved to the left on climate, on the right on immigration. those questions will be figured out in the time to come. but you look at that map, and look at, again, going back to what trump did, and i don't think you can give him enough credit for doing what none of us thought possible in defying logic in state after state and

district after district, and any appraisal has to be clear about, what the hell just happened? why are big cities that were so blue going toward trump? there is a reason there and you can figure it out. if you want solace, you find solace in knowing you probably have a pretty good chance of winning back the house in the next two years if you look at what has been happening in a 50- 50 country over the last four years, but that only happens if you come together as a party have a coherent theology and were able to articulate it in a way that resonates with people who are very persuadable. that is a lesson of arizona, a lesson of pennsylvania. people are persuadable. they are still uneasy. when there is angst, they want change . i think it is why we have a lot of change. change elections correlating with social media, which makes people ages. there is probably a reason there. next, what the public might now understand about the role that the right-wing media played in the 2024 election. we will talk to the new republic's michael domestically, about his new piece. new piece.

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the days after the election brought us no shortage of wednesday morning quarterbacking about truck's win. we spoke to veteran journalist michael tomasky about what he believes is the real reason and why it was overlooked by many. >> you read michael's piece. >> i have been following a lot of the different aspects of what happened here, and i think a major part of it, and as we talk about the democrats, i sometimes feel like we over talk about that and it leaves out other reasons why this election was lost by the democrats. that would be disinformation. and michael, you were writing about, why doesn't anyone talk about the real reason trump won. and you are talking about right- wing media in part. can you explain? >> sure. and look, there were immediate

reasons that have to do with inflation, the economy, and so forth. what i was trying to drive readers' attention with this column is a longer historical attention i have watched develop over the last four years, which is the growth, tremendous growth in size and influence of the right-wing media in this country. when we talk about the media, usually in shorthand what we say the media this, the media that, as if it is one thing. actually, in this country, we have two videos. it is important for people to understand. there is mainstream media, the "new york times", and so forth, and then the right-wing media. when we think of right-wing media, we all think fox news me but it is much larger and faster than that. there are other talk radio networks, right-wing talk radio around this country, right-wing christian radio, right-wing networks have brought up local television, local radio, some local newspapers, and then,

there is this whole world of social media and casters podcasters that is absolutely vast. at it all up, it is tremendously influential and it really does more than the mainstream media these days i think, mika, set the terms of political conversation. >> and do you think that-- are we also talking about disinformation, or just a lean to the right in terms of how the point of view is presented? >> sure . there is both. another thing that gives this right-wing media network such power is that it speaks with one voice. that voice says to regular people that the immigrants hate you. the democrats want to turn your son into your daughter, and donald trump is your last line of defense against this madness. to back to identity politics, i want to speak really quickly, i

have been writing about that since the mid-1990s. it is a political problem for the democrats. to be honest, i see trouble coming for transgender americans , probably in particular transgender people in the military. i think the democrats need to stand up for those americans. and i think most americans aren't bigoted and don't want to see people be treated the way i fear they might be treated. having said that, at election time, democrats and these interest groups need to be smarter about the way they talk about these things. and you know, you can't-- you just shouldn't ask people to tick offer publicly every item on your latest test list. >> as i always say, two things can be true at once. the democratic party can protect the rights of people others may want to step on. at the same time, they have to have reasonable rational policy positions that do two things at once. on the issue of transgender sports the overwhelming

majority of americans, i said last hour, do not want men who transition after puberty competing against young girls and young women. 85% of americans agree with that. as spencer cox, the republican governor of utah said after they vetoed a bill, come on, guys. we have three transgender athletes in the state of utah. i think we can figure this out so we don't punish these three students. so, yeah, i think we all agree there. i did want to ask this question. i found your piece fascinating. we do look at the misinformation all the time, the disinformation that is coming from a lot of these sources, just deliberate disinformation that is coming from these sources . that said, that doesn't explain black voters not coming out in detroit. black voters not coming out in

milwaukee. black voters not coming out in philadelphia in the numbers they came out in back in 2020. reverend al told us earlier about a month earlier that he went to detroit and there just wasn't the interest there among a lot of black voters. they were not excited about this campaign. they were not excited about voting. and he saw trouble coming a month ahead of time. that is not because they've been watching news max and are upset, right? >> no, it is not. it is not. i would still say, joe-- look, people go to the grocery store and they experience what they experience. the basket of groceries that used to be $80 is $150. i experienced that myself. i am not a rich guy. i see it. i go to the grocery store. all of that is true. at the same time, i think our

debates about the economy is set in large part by this right- wing media and they picked the facts that will support their interpretation of the world. and you just watch, noon on january 20th, these outlets are going to start picking the great fax lex about the economy. and within about two weeks, we are going to have a booming trump economy, according to them. >> [ laughter ] exactly. it is going to be turned around. i am sure on the other side, there will be people talking about the great depression that is coming from the far left. our economy is the envy of the world. there are people right now that are struggling with housing prices. as we said friday, the gas and grocery prices, and that is a really big issue. >> i asked kamala harris that too. she did not debate on these issues. she was coming up with a plan for 1st time homeowners. we need to be careful not to

sort of over edits on what happened. >> i want to be clear here. michael, and i will invite everybody else here quickly, we need to go to break, but it is really important for me at least personally to say this. there is always monday morning quarterbacking. if the candidate wins by one, then they are landslide johnson. if they lose by one they are the biggest loser of all time. i will be very clear, kamala harris, i think, came in, she hit her marks, did really well with her large, had those great rallies to me she did great in the debate, so well that donald trump did not want to debate her a second time. she did a lot of things right. now, mika and i have been having this debate over the weekend. mika thinks that joe biden may have done better. i don't think so. i think that this was a democratic party problem, and whoever was in that slot was going to have problems over peace, prosperity, and yes, i

will say it, with wokeness and the extreme stuff from the far left. michael, i just wanted to get that out, because we keep talking about this. usually, a candidate is blamed. my feeling is, kamala hits all of her marks. a short campaign, she did all she could do. there were just underlying problems that she could not get past any more than joe biden could have gotten past. >> i think swing voters wanted to punish the party of inflation. it is really kind of that simple . all the other issues you are talking about factored in, but i think that was far and away the main one. i think she ran a pretty good campaign, in many ways a very good pain. it seemed that i was wrong, because it looked to me like she had momentum and she had the feel of a winner. he was being desultory and, and strange in his public appearances, but none of that ended up mattering. i do think and focus groups,

voters can't answer the question, what democrats stand for economically? they can't answer, and that is an issue. >> editor of "the new republic ," michael tomasky, thank you so much. coming up, artificial intelligence and its implications for our future. it is an issue covered extensively from "new york times" best-selling author, yuval noah harari. he joins us next on "morning joe." hear

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from streaming services. according to the indictment, the producer, michael smith, created a i generated music and played it billions of times using bots he had programmed to a warning sign of how a i could be abused. moving forward, our next guest has written extensively about the threats i poses to the social order. joining us once again, "new york times" best-selling author, yuval noah harari. he's back to talk more about his new book entitled "nexus, a brief history of information networks from the stone age to a i. let's start with , even look at this case, there has got to be millions now opportunities for people to abuse a.i. . are we too far behind to catch up with the forces of this? >> no, we are not too far behind. the power is still in our hands, but it is slipping from our hands, and shifting to the

a.i.. what everyone should understand about a.i., a.i. is not a tool. it is an agent. it is the first technology in history that can make decisions by itself that is going to create new ideas by itself and therefore can take power away from us. an atom bomb automatically empowered human beings, because the bomb could not decide anything and could not create new bombs, but a i can do that. it can be just one small story about what a new generation of a.i. can do. when open a.i. developed , they wanted to test what this thing can do. so they gave it a test to solve puzzles. captha puzzles are these visual puzzles you get when you want to get into a website. the website wants to know if you are a human or robot.

now, this cannot solve by itself the captha puzzle. what it did, it's accessed, an online webpage, where you could hire humans to do jobs for you, task rabbit, and it asked a human worker, please solve their captcha puzzle for me. now, this is the interesting part , that humans got suspicious. it asked the 54, why do we need somebody to do this for you, are you a robot? and then it told the human, no, i am not a robot. i have a visual impairment, so i can't see the captcha puzzles , this is why i need help. and the human was duped and did it for it. it is already able, not just to invent things, it is also able to manipulate people. >> cowboy. i will just say, that example strikes me as terrifying. we think of a i and computers

as being cool. you make the case that it is actually really good at reading and potentially manipulating human emotions. >> they have no emotions of their own but no consciousness of their own. they will feel anything. they are becoming very, very good at reading human emotions, understanding our emotional patterns, and then manipulating them. this can be used for very good purposes. you can have a i teachers, a eye doctors that understand our emotional situation, but it could also be used to manipulate people on a large scale, selling us everything from products to politicians. previously, there was a dancer for human attention if you wanted to for instance, influence elections, the key was how to grab a human attention? now, the battle is shifting from attention to intimacy. you can deploy armies of pot

"oh, canada" that are able to converse with us as if they are human beings , and nothing sways human opinion more than intimate conversations with somebody you consider your friend. >> so, a.i. has no emotions , it is emotionless? that is an opposition to us, human beings. from time in memorial, everybody you encounter, every human being you encounter on the face of the earth has a story. everyone has a story. what happens to our stories when a.i. gets into the business of telling stories ? fake stories? >> it endangers the conversation. it is the first time in history that we have to deal, and we have to deal not just with one, in hollywood science fiction movies, it is something depicted as one big computer that i don't know, tries to take over the world. it is not. imagine millions, and millions of a.i.

bureaucrats making decisions about us , in the banks and so forth, a.i. storytellers that we encounter online and that tries to change our opinions. society is being flooded with these kind of alien intelligences, and they have no emotions of their own, but they are very good at understanding and manipulating human emotions. we are helpless in the face of this blood. we can regulate it. again, one clear manipulation should be that a.i. are welcome to human conversations, as long as they identify as a.i.. it is the same basic principle we have for humans against fraud . you cannot pretend to be a doctor if you are not. you cannot pretend to be a lawyer if you are not. and also, you should not pretend to be a human if you

are not. >> okay. the new book is entitled "nexus. " there so much there, a brief history of information of networks from the stone age to a.i.. fascinating. it goes on sale this coming tuesday, september 10th. "new york times" best-selling author, yuval noah harari , thank you very much for coming on the show. thank you. take care. >> also ahead, grammy nominated singer and actress nicole joins us in the studio. she starts in a revival of andrew lloyd webber's "sunset boulevard, and delivers a stunning performance. "morning joe" will be right back with that. ♪ ♪ . ♪ ♪ life isn't about how many people you can knock down. it's about how many people you can lift up. at ram, our calling is to build game-changing trucks. so when you find your calling...

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♪♪ that was a look at the latest broadway revival of the andrew lloyd webber musical, "sunset boulevard." the show based on the 1950 film of the same name, follows the iconic character norma desmond,

a former movie star plotting her return to the big screen, who enlists the help of beleaguered screenwriter joe gillis. their relationship ends up being as dramatic as it is destructive. joining us now, the costars of "sunset boulevard," nicole scherzinger, who plays norma, anton francis, who plays joe. they are both making their broadway debut. i can tell you, everyone who has seen this stops me to try and find the words. alex and tj in the booth-- alex, you saw it and were blown away. tj, what other words? what comes to mind to describe these performances? >> stunning, showstopping, hauntingly magnificent. it is really the best thing on broadway anybody's going to see this season. >> and alex lives on broadway. he is a broadway aficionado. that is what i am hearing every

way. i want to hear about the show. i want to hear about nicole's norma and tom's joe. >> goodness. you know, this production is uselessly fierce leslie led by our director, and he has encouraged us to bring ourselves authentically to the roles and to breed our own lives into the stories. yeah, my norma is a norma that is obviously-- struggles with abandonment and loneliness issues, feeling discarded in the industry, but also a norma that is a warrior and fighter who will never surrender, and a dreamer. >> obviously, the show is very strict back. there is no set, there's nothing other than ourselves on stage. that was jamie's vision. i would say that, that kind of allows us to do the work. it is a beautiful score that andrew has written.

donna black and christopher hampton have written some unbelievable things. having the work itself is probably the thing i try to do every single night. >> and we just saw in the video we played, some visually striking. the use of the cameras and projections on the stage, describe that. >> i think it is the visual experience. we have this huge, huge video screen, which i'm not sure how big it is, but it is pretty impressive. >> it is beyonce size. [ laughter ] >> that gets used quite a lot. i think it is the sensory overload. the sound is incredible. the way that the video is used is so cool. >> your voices are so powerful. >> nicole, we are the same age, we are 46. talk about getting older as an actress and how it has actually empowered you. can you talk about that?

>> absolutely. i mean, the door he does a lot with the subject of ageism. as you get older, not only in the industry, but in society, it gets a lot more difficult. i wanted to flip that on the head and i like to call it, instead of ages is ageism, i call it age-. you have to celebrate in your life, where it has never been stronger, more courageous, more brave and to be able to tell, to have lived a life and really tell a meaningful story, and create meaningful art. >> and you push a lot of boundaries in this performance in terms of its power and different effects, including i guess the second act starts outside. tom, talk about, if you could-- [ laughter ] is that like real? >> basically, we do this bit in the show where we go through the

whole end of the theater and i start singing on the streets of broadway. >> is at that kind of risky? >> we've got a great security team. [ laughter ] >> out there rain or shine. [ laughter ] >> i am always out there. >> thank god he loves the cold weather. even in england, he was out there without a jacket with a blizzard. >> i'm going to go photo bomb you at your next performance. i have to go. the musical "sunset boulevard" is playing now on broadway at the st. james theater. costars, nicole scherzinger anton francis. what a feat. and speaking of broadway, this month, playbill is celebrate 140 years of serving the theater community. to celebrate, the iconic magazine

for theatergoers has teamed up with every show on broadway to design four collectible, retro covers these were sitting here when i got on set. i was like, what? commemorating different eras of playbill throughout the entire month. all broadway patrons will receive one of these special edition legacy covers. the complete collection can be found at playbill.com. commemorative posters are available for purchase with proceeds benefiting broadway cares, equity fights aids. i love it. thank you all so much. congratulations. trick that we will have much more ahead on this "morning joe" holiday edition after this short break. k. dexcom g7 is one of the easiest ways to take better control of your diabetes. this small wearable replaces fingersticks, lowers a1c, and it's covered by medicare. not managing your diabetes

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good morning and welcome to this special holiday edition of

"morning joe." bringing you some of our best segments of the past few weeks. first, two governors are joining forces in the wake of donald trump's election to, protect the state level institutions of democracy. the new initiative is called, governor safeguarding democracy. it aims to provide a playbook for governors across the country seeking to push back against the upcoming administration. the gsd describes one of its key roles as it is, by supporting state leaders with tools, knowledge, and resources to protect and strengthen state democratic institutions. gsd seeks to ensure that american democracy remains vibrant, resilient, and responsive to the needs of its people. >> joining us now are the cochairs of gsd, jim craddick governor jb pritzker of illinois and democratic governor jared polis of colorado. governor polis is also chair of the national governors association. governor pritzker, i will start

with you, what types of things will gsd be preparing for? >> let's start with the idea that there are a number of things that have been brought up during the campaign, and now post his election, that president trump's administration tends to go after. an example of that, you have heard talk about bringing prayer back into public schools, as they say. the reality is that there is a constitutional bar against that, separation of church and state. the question is, what will they be doing to try to enforce that, and how at a state level can we uphold the u.s. constitution, while the administration may be coming after this vitally important freedom that people have from having to be forced into some sort of organized prayer in public schools. we've got a lot of issues like that, privacy issues around tracking people

who may be seeking to exercise their abortion rights and we want to make sure that apps can't track them, or at least those companies can't provide that information to any other states or the federal government. >> governor polis, is that the issue of prayer in school, is it that a court issue that will end up at the u.s. supreme court? >> look, i think what we really want to lean into here, making sure that states are equipped to protect our constitution and protect our democracy. that means the independence of the courts itself, the independence of institution, the law, integrity is another great concern. really by collaborating, governors can work together where there will always be issues we disagree and issues we agree on, making sure we play by a rulebook that works for our country and works for our people, remains loyal to our constitution. >> governor pritzker, we had a

reported earlier in the show about trump's efforts wrapping up for their impending mass deportation program and the construction of new facilities outside major cities, potentially chicago being one of them in your home state. how do you see the role of democratic governors, blue state governors in terms of the relationship with the federal government if they do carry out these mass deportation plans, and if they rely on state and local officials in law enforcement to do so? >> let me start by saying, we want to make sure that of course, if there are undocumented immigrants committing violent crime, we want them off the streets, we want help from the federal government, if we need it. we also want to make sure that there isn't a violation of people's rights with raves raids for example that are done in coordination with local law enforcement on people who are frankly holding down jobs and have been in this country for

many, many years. we think that is improper. in illinois, that is not something we would condone. there has been some talk about using other states' national guard, red state national guard to somehow come into a blue state and try to enforce these new kievan miller inspired rules . that is just not something we are going to accept. i want to key off of something jared said. importantly, we each have ideas, some of which we have acted upon over the last six years, and some of which are still needing to be acted upon. each state has a different situation in which they may want to act upon. for example, there are states where you have got a party in control of the governorship, but not the governor -controlled legislator. that governor may only be able to put in place executive orders . another state like mine, we have got democratic control of

the house, the senate, and governorship, we may be able to do much more, and will be. i think the idea here is to create a catalog to create dialogue amongst the governors about what is possible, and if you wanted to pursue something in your date, it would be different in each state, that is available to you. and this organization will support you in doing that. >> governor polis, i just sort of question that 30,000 feet looking down on this. how do you balance being the loyal opposition and doing what the loyal opposition has always done in american politics, also recognizing deals results of the last election, and understanding that you two represent two of the only states between the coast where republicans did not sweep the victory by pretty convincing margins? >> look, president-elect trump won the election. we will work

with him and his administration in any way we can, whether it is the manager of public lands, working to make sure priorities are met, funding transportation and transit, and we look forward to that relationship. at the same time, i think it is important we double down on depending hours drawing small democratic institutions, making sure elections in the future, decisions of the court, the rule of law continue across administrations, republican and democratic. we will always have our agreements and disagreements in the moment, but i think it is important to step back and say, let's make sure the america we cherish and love is the strongest effort in our 250th birthday in two years. >> democratic governors-- go ahead, governor pritzker here's >> i just wanted to add, joe mentioned loyal opposition. we are loyal. we are loyal to the constitution and are loyal to the people of our state. this isn't about creating some massive divide. indeed, this is about responding to concerns that

governors will have about dealing with what seems to be an onslaught from the new administration. >> appreciate that. democratic governors jb pritzker of illinois and jared polis of colorado. thank you both very much. on october 7th would have never happened, it never ever would have been attacked. it is what it is and this horrible thing happened. and what i said very plainly is , get it over with and let's get back to peace and stop killing people. that is a very simple statement . get it over with. they have got to finish what they finished, they've got to get it done, get it over with and get it over with fast. you have to get back to normalcy and peace. >> one of the many times donald trump has claimed the october 7th attacks against israel would have never happened if he was president. joining us now from tel aviv is nbc news international correspondent ralph sanchez.

taking a closer look at what a second trump term might mean for the middle east, tell us about it. >> yeah, mika, it is sometimes said that personnel is policy, and we are getting a sense of donald trump's policy from the very pro-israel people he put in to key positions at the pentagon, and of course saying the former arkansas governor mike huckabee as the new u.s. ambassador to israel. this is a man that has had me there is no such thing as a palestinian who has celebrated israeli settlements in the occupied west bank. these are appointments that are being cheered on by the israeli right. there is an awareness here that donald trump is highly unpredictable and that the policy will depend on decisions made by him and by prime minister benjamin netanyahu. >> reporter: in the middle east, already on fire after more than a year and urging new question, will a second term donald trump help put out the

flames or poured gasoline on them? the answer may depend on his company relationship with benjamin netanyahu. the minister thrilled at trump's victory, healing it as history's greatest comeback and says, yes looking to trump three times since his election, reportedly more than any other leader. he is hoping to restore the worth of trump's second term, when the u.s. handed him your win after win. brokering the area mccord's peace agreement. exactly 4 years ago, while trump was still claiming to have won 2020 election, hell six offered his congratulations to joe biden. that enraged trump, who said this to israeli journalist. >> i still like bibi, but i also like loyalty. live them. >> since then, by guns. trump supporting netanyahu

since october 7th. many believe he will give israel a free hand to step up the war in gaza, throwing off the few restraints imposed by biden. >> this is an occasion of donald trump's presidency. god bless america, god bless israel! >> but trump also voicing inpatients as the war drags on. >> get your victory and get it over with. it has to stop, the killings have to stop. >> politicians in the ruins in gaza telling our team, they can only hope he means it. >> reporter: while the families of u.s. hostages pleading with biden and trying to work together towards a deal. >> we have asked the president and his senior staff, as well as the incoming administration, to begin work immediately

together. >> mike florio is israel's former ambassador to washington. >> you got to deal with donald trump. you've got to deal with him very straight. you can't play with him and you've got to deal with him by his rules, not israel's rules. if you would tell hell six to end the war, would he end the war now? >> the question is how the war ends. >> another question, iran. it's decade-long shadow in open conflict. if israel's strikes nuclear facilities that could track the u.s. to war. hitting trump's pro instinct against his promises for peace. >> said, he will start a war. i'm not going to start a war, i'm going to stop wars. >> netanyahu thing, he and trump see eye to eye on iran. both are sons of fruit privilege who fashioned themselves as champions of working people. both with crimes allegedly committed while in office, yet, still swept back to power in a stunning comebacks. and both keenly aware of the

theatricality of politics. in 2019, netanyahu thinking trump by naming settlement in the heights after him. five years on from that ceremony, the sign is a little faded and the town itself isn't exactly mar-a-lago. trump hides his home to more than 30 families, most in temporary housing until their real homes in lebanon are built. came here with her husband and four children. >> we came here for the quiet and green spaces, and the kids would not have to run from house to house freely. >> how do you feel coming to a place named after someone as controversial as donald trump? >> when i said, where do i leave, it is just a town with great people in great view. you are from different backgrounds with very different views and opinions, but this is not what defines us. >> reporter: now, four more years of trump for this place and the broader middle east. >> the prospects of a cease- fire in gaza looking pretty

bleak now. there is not much indication either hamas nor hell six with a deal. there is more optimism about a cease-fire to end fighting in lebanon. an israeli official tells me, they think the battle is possible either in the final weeks of the administration, or potentially in the opening of donald trump's next term, a quick, diplomatic victory from this term to the next. >> ralph sanchez reporting live from tel aviv, thank you very much for your reporting. caddy k, your reports thoughts on this? >> i think how much of a relationship donald trump manages to form with the saudi's . we know david ignatius, the one area where he would like to expand and the biden administration would have liked to expand of course was to bring the saudi's in. but they have said since october 7th, there has to be some pathway to palestinian security in the palestinian state. how does donald trump's reelection shuffle that

particular bits of the puzzle? >> i am told that the saudi remain as interested in normalization with israel as a year ago, one that seemed very close before the october 7th attack. and the that trump would like to see this big deal, he kind of played the normalization as a part of the abraham accords in the beginning. he will have to find a formula that will be acceptable to the saudis that speak of's palestinian sovereignty, or pathway forward, some language that netanyahu can accept, it may break his coalition, but i think what it is coalition badly. another big movement is that netanyahu's right-wing supporters think trump's victory will be possible to annex the west bank. mike huckabee has made suggestions suggesting he might support that. if that policy is advanced, any hopes of saudi normalization, good relations with jordan go

out the window. that would be a genuinely move. >> let's bring you in on that very point, the idea that a truck victory, knowledge to stay in power himself, but to further to eye the west bank, to abandon any sort of cease- fire talk. what is your sense as to how this could play out? >> two things here, one is i think the truck victory, and obviously netanyahu's survival politically is an indication to any world leader facing scandal . if you just wait it out, plow forward there is a likelihood you will survive, politically speaking. in terms of the policy elements here, there's nothing that indicates that trump or mike huckabee, or anyone in this administration that has been constructed will say israel actually knows, back off a little bit. the human suffering, humanitarian situation in gaza is too much to bear.

i think, in fact, they will give them the green light. trump has said, they will give them the green light for a period of time. i don't think it is indefinite. i think there's that point is, let israel do what it wants to do, get it over with and cut some sort of deal to end the war. what that means in terms of on the ground, i don't know. it is notable domestically here, some of the pro- palestinian forces were so skeptical of the harris-biden administration, and already are expressing disappointment with the appointees trump has put on his foreign-policy team. you have to say, where are you not paying attention? this is exactly what they advertise and exactly what they are doing. >> sam stein, thank you very much. we appreciate it. coming up, our next guest right that, if you're unsure how the next four years will play out, i promise you are wrong. adam grant, psychologist at the wharton school at the university of pennsylvania joins us next to explain what

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welcome back to "morning joe." a shot of the white house. >> a gorgeous, gorgeous day in d.c. >> where we have donald trump and joe biden meeting later today. our next guest helped me with my christmas presents last year. >> and mine too. so good! >> adam grant wrote a book

called, "hidden potential." what he talks about in it is getting out of your comfort zone , failing purposely, getting better through failures, and the greatest example, i'm going to talk to him about it when we get him on it a minute. he said, could speak so many languages, and he just assumed they were brilliant. as he went to talk to them, he started to realize, the only thing that separated them from the rest of us is, they purposefully went out of their way to make mistakes. there was one guy that probably picked up 20 different languages. his rule was when he went to a new country, he had to make 200 mistakes a day. 200 mistakes a day that he learned from. and in a week or two, he was picking up the language. it is

a brilliant way, especially for your children concerned about failing, about getting outside of their comfort zone, you, me, or any of us who are afraid to get out of our comfort zone, when you have that sort of mindset, it is amazing how you unlock your hidden potential. and that is what adam talked about in the book. anyway, the aforementioned adam grant has a guest essay in "the new york times" with this advice for americans. >> if you are sure how the next four years are going to play out, i promise you are wrong. adam joins us now, an organizational psychologist at the wharton school of the university of pennsylvania. >> adam, did i get that story right, or are you a different adam grant? >> you got that right, i don't think you can get away with 200 mistakes on the air a day. >> somehow, i do, and we keep on keeping on. >> we challenge you.

>> this seems like great advice in your essay today. it's sort of reminds me of the dvt suggestion, don't suffer twice. don't suffer about the ahead of time and most of the time, what you are suffering about does not come to fruition. that appears to be what you are saying here. >> i think that is well put. i think we are constantly overconfident about our ability to predict future events and we fail to learn the lesson over and over again that we are wrong. there are so many examples of this, but i think back to the treaty of versailles in 1919, where the allied powers all celebrated peace, and did not realize that the national humiliation that germany faced was sowing the seeds of world war ii. i just wonder how many times we have to go through experiences like that, before we finally

realize, just because we think the outcome is good today, does not mean it will lead to what we want tomorrow, and vice versa. >> professor grant, it is so good to see you. i have my adam grant desk calendar ready for 2025, something to think about. suffice it to say, we were very happy to see her face in a moment like this. let's talk other advice you gave and observations you make in this column. you say, pain and sorrow are never permanent. ideally over time, they help us make sense, find meaning, and fuel change, which is to say, it is okay to be upset, shocked, frustrated this week, probably if you are a democrat in some kind of despair. the question is, what do you do with that going forward? >> i think the whole point of unpleasant emotions is that they are supposed to teach us lessons. the same way when you touch a hot stove, it hurts, so you pay attention and make changes. a lot of people are feeling what we might call election dejection. the point of that is to prompt analysis, which we are seeing a lot right now of what went

wrong for democrats. i think many people are feeling morally outraged. the purpose of that is to get you to fight against the status quo and get you to drive change. i think many people are worried about what is going to come next. in psychology, worrying is defined as intentional problem- solving, which i think the world needs a lot of right now. >> really, basically what i was going to ask, pain and sorrow, never permanent, you write. i want to ask you about pain and sorrow being never permanent . when you walk around the upper west side in new york city, you were confronted by people literally who will stop you and start crying about what happened a week ago on election day. the problem, it would seem to me, is that there pain and sorrow, they are going to be constantly reminded of it on television each and every day as the president-elect of the united states proceeds through

the next four years. what do you do about the permanence of that particular kind of pain? >> i don't think it is easy, mike. i would say, it is worth remembering that things could always be worse. let's go back to 2020. how many democrats cheered when joe biden won that election? i think with the benefit of hindsight, many democrats would feel, we would've been better off if trump had won in 2020, now knowing that he won in 2024. there would have been no lie about election fraud. there would have been no january 6th insurrection. we would probably have more moderates and qualified people surrounding him . i don't want to say, imagining how things could be worse is uplifting or energizing for most people, but it does make us grateful for what we have. >> yeah, and maybe i shouldn't say that, this, but also, don't sit in front of the tv or your phone all day and doing escrow. go outside, walk around, look

up at the sun. get a life outside of politics. adam? yes, no? >> the new piece is online for the "new york times", organizational psychologist at the wharton school university of pennsylvania. adam grant, once again, thank you very much and thanks for coming on the show this morning. coming up, we speak with best-selling author john grisham about his new book, "framed" which tells the story of the wrongfully accused and their battles to win back their freedom. "morning joe" will be right back. right back. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. so, you know, han is 22 years old, and we've been together most of my life. not often do you have a childhood dog that, that lives this long so i think it's really unique and special that we've experienced so many, so many things in life together. knowing that he's getting good nutrition and that

he has energy is a huge relief for me and my dad. “such a good little bean.” we're so grateful to have had this time with him, so let's keep it going and make every day special.

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let me set the record straight.

♪ miebo ♪ are people born wicked? or do they have wickedness thrust upon them? oh! -ah! [ laughter ] no need to respond. that was rhetorical. hm, hmm. will come back. a new book is highlighting some of the most powerful stories of injustice in the u.s. criminal justice system with a goal of minimizing future abuses of power by law enforcement authorities. the book, titled "framed, astonishing true stories of wrongful convictions," was cowritten by justice advocate jim mccloskey, and "new york

times" best-selling author, a longtime advocate for the wrongfully convicted, john grisham. and john joins us here onset now. good to see you this morning. tell us about first why this subject is so important. >> i got involved in it almost 20 years ago, when i wrote my first nonfiction book, "the innocent man" about one case and just became fascinated with wrongful convictions and the sheer number of them. most people don't realize there are thousands of them. i love them for my storytelling point of view because they are very rich stories filled with a lot of drama, suffering, injustice, and unhappy ending every now and then. but they are really great stories to tell. jim mccloskey is an old buddy. when we get together, start telling stories and in this case, we started telling stories. it has been his life's work. we get the idea of taking our top 10, our top 10 favorite

depressing stories. >> john has the next question right here. >> you know, john, don't want to get political here. i think your book serves a political purpose, an important purpose. it seems to me, growing up in the south like you, a lot of people call themselves pro- life, and are the loudest about that, are the biggest advocates of america going to war with the question is raised, and the biggest advocates of the death penalty. i've seen it my entire life. i've seen democrats trying to get votes by governor, by executing people that should not have been executed. i am just curious, how would this book, how can this book educate people who are instinctively in support of the death penalty, but may not see just how many innocent people are sent to their deaths unjustly? >> one of the purposes of the

book was to try to show readers, those who care to read , how many wrongful convictions there are, and how they apply to everybody, not just minorities. not just people who get most of the convictions, most of the people who get in trouble. we deliberately picked 10 cases that involved 22 eggs honorees, half of whom are white, because white people don't believe that there are thousands of innocent people in prison. black folks know it, white people don't believe it. we take these cases to try to show how these cases happen to average people. it is also to raise awareness about how long the death penalty is. one case we followed to the very end. and a young man is executed in texas 10 years ago for a crime that never occurred. and they are trying to do it again in texas, trying to stop again in texas. it is awareness, just that the stories are so rich, so hard to believe, so fun to read,

although they are frustrating, infuriating, maddening to me whatever, but they are great, great stories. >> can you give us a summary of perhaps the story that shocks you the most? that shocks your conscious the most about somebody sent unjustly to their death by our government? >> you can't do a quick summary of any of these stories. they are very long stories. the story i just mentioned, cam was executed in 2014 for a crime that never occurred. he was convicted of setting his house on fire to burn up his three daughters. of course in texas in 1992. the arson experts by the state of texas said, clearly arson, it clearly was not arson. he served 10 years on death row and was finally executed. after his death, the real science came out the arson investigation was totally discredited by real experts and they proved that it was a fire, but it was not arson. it was

tragedy, a terrible crime. that science was on the governor's desk the day of execution. the governor had access to new signs in 2014, and would not stop the execution here that is the most egregious case so far because they killed an innocent man. >> i am looking at the front page of this. you have written i think it is a fiction book a year for decades. why now go to nonfiction? do you feel that these are stories that can only be told through nonfiction, or that you might reach different audiences through this method? >> truthfully, i could not create these stories and i could not make up this stuff. they are so bizarre, unfair, disheartening. i could only go so far with action. i could not make these stories up. the fact that they are true make them more readable. people

can believe the stories happen. it was fictional, somebody's imagination, i just made them up. the fact that they are true gives them a much, much bigger impact. >> john, there has been reporting that you have went too far, using the reporter about the major case in texas. they have asked for changes in the book. >> i hate they have done that. these stories, some are 20 years old. they have been the subject of books, magazine articles, documentary films. these are well-known cases in america criminal justice. they have been written by by a lot of people. jim and i had a wealth of information to draw from. we used their books, their magazine articles, there documentary films. that is what you do when you write fiction. you rely on other sources. we say, thanks to their eight pages of acknowledgments in the back of the book where we say thanks to all of these people. we name them. we used your

stuff, we give you threaded credit. we thought we did not go far enough and we did go far enough. >> john, what do you find most rewarding about this book, nonfiction versus fiction? as you put the pin down, as you finish it up, as you get it published, what for you, especially in this case, do you find most rewarding as an author? >> tough question. it is always great to finish a book. i've finished a lot of them now. this one took a long time. the nonfiction work is much more difficult because of the research. with fiction, you can create a lot of stuff. i am in total control of everything i write. nonfiction, you have got to be accurate. we just talked about that. what would be gratifying here would be to be able to take

credit of real change, if something were to change. the landscape is changing. there are fewer executions every year. there are fewer death verdicts every year. the death penalty is dying slower in america. maybe this helps a little bit. maybe this shows people, there is a better way to punish criminals than to kill them. >> i will tell you, it is changing also because some evangelicals-- i even member pat robinson as expressing skepticism about the death penalty in his final years, talking about the death penalty , and its inconsistencies in its problems. the new book, "framed the astonishing stories of true convictions" one cell now. "new york times" best-selling author, john grisham, thank you so much for being here. coming up, he has played hamlet, macbeth, and now king lear. oscar-winner kenneth brought up joins us to preview his latest production. st

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, heather, leonardo. what was it you told me of today, that your niece, beatrice, was in love with señor benedict? >> i did not think that lady would have loved any man. >> nor i, neither. such wonder she would note on senior ability. some behaviors seem to have at all. >> maybe she but counterfeit. >> faith, like enough. >> counterfeit? if she sure makes tender of her love, it is very possible he will score in it, for the man, as you know, have the contemptible spirit. [ laughter ]

>> that was a clip from the 1993 classic, "much to do about nothing." the film stars the brilliant kenneth branagh, who adapted william shakespeare play for the big screen. that is hard. branagh is again working with shakespearean material for his new, off-broadway play, " king lear." the award-winning actor and director joins us now. it is kind of a busy time, but thank you for coming in. i read that the first time you read "king lear" was 45 years ago. what is it like to bring it to the stage now? >> when i first saw it, i was 17. sorry? i know i am performing it, but i could certainly quote it for you when king lear says, in distress, an insight he is going through, practically having lost everything, he says, when we are born, we cried that we are come to this

great stage of a fools. now, that whole idea of human beings , capable of foolishness, and being foolhardy throughout their life in a play that from the beginning, in an ordinary family situation, produces poor misjudgments in a sort of family dynamics, and from that, chaos comes. that, i recognized at 17 and i am still trying to work out at 63. >> i am recognizing it today, but go ahead. >> do you think that that is one of the reasons why this has lasted so long, that people see the kind of conflict, and kind of way to resolve matters-- like you said, you saw at 17 and are still dealing with, you think that others what has made this survive as a story for so long? >> i think you are right. the human recognition, like king lear in the play, announces things.

told story gave away titles, money, copyrights, and things later in life. he talked about his art and said, well if through art, you could show mankind themselves and let them see themselves, then maybe they can change. that is what i always found with shakespeare. you have that opportunity, if you stay with it, to recognize. in this case, a family dynamic in which a king decides to give up-- basically wants to work three days a week, you might say. decides he wants to split-- >> new remote . >> i will finish on thursday, coming late tuesday morning, but i would still like the job title to me please, and divide it between three people equally divide and conquer, it does not work. those three people are his daughters, they are much younger and they have different points of view. >> there you go, for sure. joe has a question for you. >> you know what is so fascinating, we are so obsessed change, we are now the social

media age, but we went from the good gary age, to the industrial age, and we always say, everything changes so much, but isn't it extraordinary , shakespeare remains relevant? because, unfortunately, we as human beings don't change, do we? >> he seems to indicate certainly 400 years ago, when there is a power vacuum and someone decides, i can control this handover of power, but i can do it on my terms, what he discovers quite quickly is, what he has signed the documents , what he is no liver in the job, the people who agree to anything he said before that moment when he signed now have a different point of view. his understanding of what he is capable of, is understanding this sort of mental cognition, et cetera, is different from their view of it, and you want to have the keys to the castle are the ones who are going to win in that equation. >> you have been doing

shakespeare, stage and film for basically your whole career. it is timeless, as basically you point out. do you see a difference in how, from when you first started doing this, to now, in terms of how audiences relate to shakespeare, or is it that lineup that it is so deeply human, nothing changes in terms of times we are living in relative to this stuff? >> it is interesting. i think there's always been a fear factor with shakespeare. people fear instant language, distant language, somehow between them and their experience. there is a line in "king lear," when edward said, the weight of this time where we must obey, speak what we feel, not what we ought to say. i think what i have noticed across my time of doing shakespeare, is people's capacity to feel along with shakespeare has never been more vibrant. we have been playing out in new york for a couple of reviews. the audiences are so so

shocked, so quick that it, so able to feel the production of two hours without intermission, partly because the events of the play are so rapid, the catastrophe that happens from simple misjudgments in human situations from the beginning of the play, unleashes and unravels a whole series of decisions made in the heat of the moment, which have very much to do with people feeling, not necessarily considering, not necessarily reflecting, not necessarily taking time for a pause. i would say, my experience that audiences already to experience , and prefer to experience, rather than sort of listen to a lecture. >> the audiences here everyone's obsession. we get the original . >> i, as a person who participated in the williamstown fear festival, i am aware of your career in shakespeare and i said, kenneth branagh is on the show, and a young person said nearby to me, oh, he is in-- is it "the hobbit

?" i can't remember. harry potter! he is in "harry potter!" i was like, you are coming with me. "king lear" in new york city, it opens november 14th and runs through december 15th. you have a limited opportunity, get in there. academy award-winning actor and director kenneth branagh, thank you very much. coming up, the new documentary, "leap of faith," challenges us to consider whether we can disagree and still be connected to one another in such a divided world. we will be joined by the film's award-winning director, along with his father. that is next on this holiday edition of "morning joe." provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people—whether you're 18 or 80.

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the fact that we disagree is not insurmountable. >> you be who you are, i will be ym, and we will find a way

together. >> amen! preach, preacher. [ laughter ] >> i was holding this thing together at as a fear of institution failing, not for love of my children. >> i think the and relationship with these 11 people has changed me. >> what would it mean if all the polarization fragmentation and conflict were actually this amazing opportunity for the gospel? >> it is a story about love. can people actually love each other? >> beyond tolerance. that is a holy thing. while! that is a look at the new documentary, entitled "leap of faith." the film follows 12 pastors of varying theological and political persuasions from grand rapids, michigan as they

are brought together on multiple retreats in an attempt to find common ground on issues such as gender equality, racial tension, and political polarization. joining us now, "leap of faith" director and award winning producer nicholas ma and his father, acclaimed cellist yo- yo ma, who has special screenings of the film. thank you both for coming on. nicholas, congratulations on this. i am fascinated to hear the pitch on this. how did you do this? more importantly, where were you -- were you surprised, and found success connection, and perhaps, where their failures along the way? >> sure. i think the failures are necessary for the successes. we are so afraid of failure that often we shy away from the thing that seems hard.

i sort of think about the movie as almost like having children. you dive into and have no idea what is going to happen. everybody tells you, it is hard for me but it is beautiful. it is hard, but it is beautiful. i think that is what these pastors found, it is hard, but actually beautiful. i think we need that now. these differences are cosmetic and we can't cross them. we've managed to find a wholeness. i remember growing up in my dad's concerts, and that wholeness everyone feels and looks around like, i don't know you, i don't know what you're thinking, but i know we are feeling the same thing. somehow, that is what these pastors achieve at the end of this year together. >> nicholas, i grew up in the pentecostal church as a boy preaching. i knew a lot of ministers growing up that just believed, if you did not follow the dogma exactly the way they believed what you are going to hell. how do you reconcile people that are just my way, or the highway with this kind of spirit that you are trying to bring about in terms of reconciliation? >> sure. i think there will

always be a chunk of people that do not believe engaging is a thing to do. that is a hard thing to contend with. i think it is a much smaller group than we believe. in 2016, one in six family members stopped talking to each other because of the election. at the same time, after the screening monday, i know four families that reunited, they found each other again. there is a way back, there is a way through. i think when we sort of assume that people don't want to engage, we assume the worst of them. we can't imagine living them, we can't imagine them loving us, but the possibility of staying is really what it is all about, it is what we are about as a country and what this film is all about. >> jan being the proud father of nicholas, and playing special screenings of the film, i was wondering, nicholas referred to it a little bit there, about music, and whether you have seen an increase in polarization in your audience is in the united states over the last few years, and whether you feel that the music that

you play has that ability, as nicholas described me to bring some sense of transcending political divisions amongst people? >> i think that is such a wonderful question. as i was watching the film, i was thinking, essentially, the pastors were building trust between-- amongst themselves. and i think the ritual of concert, playing, performing, is not unlike a sacred ritual, where you are there, first of all to build trust. you can't perform with fellow musicians without trusting one another. secondly, there is something almost between secular and sacred in a performance venue that does not tolerate dissent, because we are under a larger umbrella. and i think, by the way, happy birthday , rev. i think it is

so wonderful we are altogether in this group, but, i was-- but i felt watching the film was that there are a lot of people who are confused, and lonely. these days, our surgeon general says, we are having an epidemic of loneliness. and what it did for me is, the film brought me hope and solace . that is exactly what i hope happens when i perform. i hope that answers your question. >> the new documentary, "leap of faith," premieres tomorrow in theaters nationwide. director and producer, nicholas ma and acclaimed cellist yo-yo ma, acclaimed cellist yo-yo ma. thank you very much for coming on the show. congratulations on this. we appreciate it. we appreciate t ♪ ♪ >>