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on this new hour of ayman, breaking news. donald trump tapped loyalist kash patel to serve as the next fbi director.

plus, trump my in feud with the press escalates as he plans to replace traditional media with more favorable influencers. as trump's cabinet quickly fills up, one state seems to dominate his picks. that would be florida. i'm sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin . let's do it. all right, let's start tonight with the breaking news that donald trump announced he would pick kash patel , former chief of staff to the acting secretary of defense during his first administration, to serve as his fbi director. nbc news correspondent von hilliard joins us by phone. von, thank you so much. look, after abruptly firing james comey as fbi director in 2017, trump put chris ray to replace and. chris ray was an establishment type figure. a chris christie guy. tonight trump has apparently just fired or says he intends to, announces his intention to hire chris ray, even though mr.

perez term is not done until january 20th. what you make of what's happening here? >> right, this is a saturday night announcement, i think that's an understatement. you are looking at, of course, chris ray, who is donald trump's own selection back in 2017. fbi director served that 10 year term. we reported earlier this month that chris ray was anticipating either being forced out through firing or resigning with the expectation that he would be fired by donald trump upon him taking office this january. and now tonight, even before donald trump has publicly indicated whether he will fire the announcement that he intends to install kash patel as the fbi director. it must be very clear, sam. this is a staggering announcement, because of the political nature in which kash patel has aligned himself with donald trump over the years. he has pledged to go after the individuals who he says form

the deep state inside of the fbi, the cia, the intelligence community. the department of justice. and donald trump first floated having kash patel service fbi director in the cia and top- level capacity back at the end of his first term in 2020. at the time it was gina haskel, a cia director, who said that she would design if kash patel was her deputy. and bill barr, the attorney general of the time, also spoke out and was very explicit in his memoir, in the aftermath of, upon meeting the administration, which he said, quote, with virtually no experience they would qualify him to serve at the highest level the world's preeminent law enforcement agency. just one year ago he was very explicit, not only going after prosecutors and other officials in the doj that he says unfairly targeted donald trump, but again, this was from kash

patel very directly, quote, we will go out and find the conspirators. not just in the government, but the media. yes, we are going to come after the people in the media who lied about elections. kash patel has been very clear that he plans to use the fbi as a tool to go after those that are perceived enemies of donald trump. and he will have to be senate confirmed, but if he is confirmed, this is about as close to the loyalist that donald trump could possibly find and install in the capacity of director of the fbi. >> and i guess the question that we are all sort of trying to figure out is to what degree will senate republicans stomach this? this is a confirmable position. there's going to be 53 republican senators that can stand to lose three. if you have people like bill barr saying this man is not qualified, in the past, obviously, but it does not take long to dredge up that quote. i imagine you're going to have other people in law enforcement officials saying no, this is a

terrible road to go down. do you imagine there is enough back on among senate republicans, or are they already saying look, we are going to have to vote down matt gaetz, you want us to vote down pete hegseth, you want us to vote down tulsa gabbard, how many more can we vote down? >> right, i think that this is going to be an extension of the test case. and matt gaetz, who had been given indication by people like mitch mcconnell not going to vote to confirm him, i think that this is really the next step. if matt gaetz was a startling pick for moderate or reticent republicans to donald trump, then i think kash patel would be an extension of that. but this is donald trump doing exactly what he said he would do on the campaign trail. and that was to use these agencies and these departments to go and, in his view, right the wrongs of the last four years and the criminal indictment that he faced coming out of the department of justice, but also for state

prosecutors like in new york and fulton county. so i don't know, sam. i think it's tough to see that some of these republican senators, even mitch mcconnell signing onto kash patel, but it is a question of still and open-ended? for the pentagon chief. so this is a real battle in a test to see how much of a resistance some of these republicans in the u.s. senate that are reticent to donald trump loyalists coming into these with a very overt intent to be institutionalized, you stop law enforcement agencies, to what extent are they willing to stand up to him? i think it's going to be a real test of what we can affect over the next four years in terms of the relationship between senate republicans and donald trump. >> yeah, we are in some uncharted territories here. von hilliard, thank you so much. really appreciate it. tonight, donald trump called his next pick for the director

of the fbi, kash patel," really a lawyer, investigator, and america first fighter. but patel's record tells a different story. last year patel pledged to quote go out and find the conspirators , not just in government, but in the media, accusing them of helping joe biden rigged the presidential election. he has a record of pushing trump my in conspiracy theories and even promoted an anti- vaccine diet supplement. claiming they could reverse the effects of covid-19 vaccines. patel has little experience for the role, and apparently in exaggerating his qualifications, he once claimed to be the lead prosecutor in a federal case against a libyan tied to the 2012 ben ghazi attacks. but the justice department records do not list him as a lead or even as part of the team. in a 2016 case involving a palestinian refugee who pleaded guilty to supporting isis, a federal judge removed patel from the courtroom. the judge called his presence

unnecessary and criticized him for his lack of professionalism and inappropriate attire. when trump entertained naming patel as deputy director of the fbi during his last presidency, former ag bill barr, as vaughn just noted, said, quote, over my dead body. now, adding to this growing list of controversial picks, this is the man trump wants to run the fbi. let's bring in my panel. joining me now are hayes brown, writer and editor at msnbc daily, and april ryan, white house correspondent at the grillo and her name is an easy contributor. hayes, look, the news provides stuff to talk about, and this is what we will talk about. in his 2022 book, as we mentioned, bill barr wrote that about thwarting trump's attempts to make cash patel the deputy fbi director, an idea that barr said showed a shocking detachment from reality, and yet here we are

again. i mean, what is going on here? >> i mean, kash patel displays the one thing donald trump cares about, which is loyalty. he has been through , with trump, by his side, thick and thin, since before he was even part of the administration. in 2017 he was on the house intelligence committee staff, he was looking into claims of the russia investigation being a deep state plot. that went nowhere. he got moved over to the national security council and the white house where he was part of the plot to basically blackmail ukraine. trump was at one point convinced he was running ukraine policy, even though he wasn't there yet he got shuffled over to the director of national intelligence. he got shuffled over to the pentagon. and since leaving the administration he has been a loyalist at a pro trump think tank. kash patel as fbi director would be like if you crossed alex jones with j edgar hoover in terms of just how much he would want to

ignore precedent and the constraints that have been put on the fbi over the years. with all of the conspiracy theorizing, all of the eagerness to fan the flames of the worst instincts of president trump, put in the power, those two things should never mix. cash patel as a vote, and he is a couple of votes away from that happening once he is put before the senate. >> yeah, four senate republicans. april, the thing that is sort of overarching here is january 6th, the sort of attempt, and honestly, at this point, somewhat successful attempt to rewrite that day. kash patel was involved in the planning and around that day . but mostly he has talked about retribution for what happened. and retribution for the people who were arrested on that day. how do you imagine that this all plays out in a subsequent confirmation hearing? weren't there senate republicans who fled for their lives on that day, don't they

want to avoid that discussion? is it avoidable, or are we at a point where trump has successfully recast january 6th so that it is not a big problem for the senate republicans anymore? >> for all americans, we saw it on television, it wasn't a bunch of people going for a tour of the capital. it was not a picnic where they were skipping along holding hands. they were paying on statues, defecating on things, and doing things that caused harm or potentially could have hurt one of the lawmakers there. so sam, in the midst of this, you have a man who is now nominated to head the federal bureau of investigation, that is supposed to uphold the constitution, the mission is to protect the american people and uphold the constitution, and protect the american people against crimes that are against u.s. laws.

where does all this fit in with january 6th? january 6th is the juxtaposition of the constitution. many think it was treasonous. and for him to be one of the conspirators, this has now left the court of public opinion. because you're going to have a lot of senators, republican senators, who are loyal to president-elect donald trump. and they will close and i, turn ahead, and there might be others who say things, but the issue is the american public is going to be the one that has to speak. and we saw what happened with matt gaetz. the court of public opinion pushed matt gaetz to say look, i don't want to be a distraction. the question is, will this be along that same line? making kash patel a distraction for donald trump. >> well, what you make of that? matt gaetz did not even make it to his confirmation hearing. he's made it seven days, i think, if i remembering

correctly. too many skeletons in the closet. is there a sense the kash patel has the relationships with the republican senators to avoid that same date? >> i doubt it. i don't believe that he has ever been in a senate confirmed position. he's never had to go through that process. trump kind of just shuffled him around into various placements where that wasn't necessary. so he has never had to go through the grind of publicly defending his past statements. of which there have been many. like the op oh file on kash patel has to be as long as the files he wants to put together as fbi director on all of us in the press. the number of things he has said that should disqualify him as being in public service at all, let alone as the head of the federal bureau of investigation, is too numerous to list. the question then becomes, matt gaetz, let's go back to him. he had enough of a toxic relationship with other republicans on the hill that he was a detriment. it is unclear whether kash patel, whose name is not a household name, will get that same level of pushback.

as matt gaetz saw when he was the one named to attorney general. >> yeah, i guess we will find out. hayes and april, you guys are both sticking around. thank you very much. coming up, is joe rogan about a get a white house press pass? if you're living with hiv, imagine being good to go without daily hiv pills. ♪♪ good to go binge-watch. ♪♪ good to go out even later. ♪♪ with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills.

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♪ you gotta give the people ♪ without daily hiv pills. ♪ you gotta give the people ♪ ♪ you gotta give the people ♪ ♪ what they want ♪ wait till you see this. hours ago trump picked cash patel is as fbi director, another trump loyalist that is no friend to the press. after serving a full term in the white house, donald trump still seems to believe being president grants him exclusive entry into a protected class, one that is shielded from scrutiny from the press. and he is learning that is much as he pushes and threatens, it is just not how journalism is supposed to work in a democracy.

this week the new york times ran a piece by natalie hart, a former white ring cable editor turned trump loyalist. she was nicknamed the human printer of the trump campaign, because she literally loved around a portable printer that was used to supply trump with a paper stream of good news. she seems to adore her boss, in a letter seen by the new york times and confirmed by sources close to both parties, heart wrote, quote, i don't ever want to let you down. she may be the only woman in history to refer to him as her quote guardian and protector. soon after the story was published, trump ranted about the new york times untruth social. he wrote, quote, i don't believe i had a legitimately good story in the new york times for years, and yet i won, and record fashion, the most consequential presidential election in decades. where is the apology? trump's response says it all. he did not just sound angry, he sounded entitled. and it could be a clear glimpse of what he will demand from the

press the second time around. after that outburst, donald trump jr. said on his podcast that trump is considering taking traditional media out of the white house press briefing room and replacing them with friendlier faces from the podcast world. as the new york times pointed out, earlier this month, trump's turned to the podcast world in his campaign allowed him to quote sidestep more confrontational interviews with professional journalist where he might face tough questions, fact checks, and detailed policy debates. the influencers he met with rarely challenged mr. trump and often lavished him with praise. trump challenging the press is not anything new during his last presidency his administration secretly obtained phone records and emails from journalists at the new york times, the washington post, and cnn. and on the campaign trail this year he threatened to revoke broadcast licenses and throw journalists he did not like in jail. but this week's developments suggest donald trump has

graduated to the next phrase. elevating media figures who he expects to be mouthpieces for his administration and shutting out journalists who published unflattering pieces about the president-elect and his loyalists. hayes and april are still with me, and joining us now, somehow we let him through, is max tony, media reporter at semaphore. let's start with you. in april 2010, trump told you, infamously, i would say, to sit down during a press conference after you asked a question about voter suppression. look, what did the moment reveal for you, not only about how trump reviews journalists, but also about the crucial topics that journalists investigate, like voter suppression, and how they will have to go about pushing this stuff in the next trump term. >> first of all, sam, you and i have covered residents for a while. and we know that watching the last trump residency feels like so many people did not take civics. reporters are not there just

asking questions just ask them. we are the first line of questioning an american president. before the state. and when we ask questions, there is a give-and-take. a lot of times presidents don't like it, but they still find a way to get us the information, or maybe there is a bit of retaliation. with former president trump, now president-elect trump, he was very clear with his disdain of reporters. after i asked that question, he told me to sit down, a grown woman with children, has a standing in the community, he told me to sit down. but he responded to me. and that is the reason why i stood up. and the next day he said he was going to revoke jim acosta's press credentials, and he did, and someone asked is there another person? he said yeah, that april is a loser. i never got my credentials revoked. but what people have to understand, it's not personal. it's about policy. what we see.

and i believe them when they say they are going to bring in a new line of reporters that they consider reporters. because that happened last time. i would not be surprised if joe rogan comes in. but typically, until helen thomas, we did not have commentators or columnists sitting in the room. so i would not be surprised. but the issue is if you have journalists there who are not asking serious questions and the american public suffers because you don't know what's going on. that is the bottom line. this is something the white house correspondents association is dealing with. they plan to shake up the seating. they look at those who were not coming in as normal, et cetera, and i would love to be a fly on the wall to hear that conversation between the incoming trump team and the white house correspondents association.

to see how they are working this out. because they are the advocacy group for us to ask the questions of the president of the united states. >> max, i want to come to you on this one. because the other part of this equation is that journalistic institutions, mainly major newspapers and outlets, are kind of reassessing how they should go about covering trump. not necessarily saying we can't be doing critical coverage of him, but also at the same time, wondering whether they had the right balance, whether they have the right voices, whether they should do endorsements, how do you feel like those conversations are progressing? what do you think will change in terms of the trump coverage in the next administration? >> yeah, i think that's a great question, sam. and it is something that i've heard is going on and a lot of newsrooms, a lot of legacy media newsrooms. there's a lot of reflection about the fact that over the last nine years there has been a tremendous amount of negative coverage, and critical, fair coverage of trump that has revealed some very, very

damning incidents, both things that are out in public, and incidents behind the scenes. and yet, trump is more popular than ever. you see that in the polls, and you see that in his most recent victory. so i think that there is a question within a lot of legacy newsrooms after trump's election victory in november, about whether there are a large group of people who are just simply not seeing these stories, that are very critical because of changes in the ways that people consume media, or if it is simply that they don't care. i think that is definitely something that a lot of news organizations are thinking about. i don't know if it's necessarily going to result in tremendous amounts of changes, but we have seen some moves along the margin, you have the l.a. times who hired a pro-trump commentator from cnn to be on its editorial staff, so there are some small changes. but of course, i think that it

remains to be seen whether there will be some broader moves. >> and hayes, the other thing, and i talked about this with max prior to the segment, but the other thing that is ironic here, let's put it this way, is that trump obviously goes to war with the media, criticizes the media nonstop, threatens the media nonstop. he also loves the media. love it. want to be the number one story all the time. wants to be on tv. wants to be on the front page. the guy cuts out every time magazine cover that he has ever been on and posted on his wall. and that has always been this weird dichotomy, which is that yes, he is a clear and present threat to the press, but he really worships the press. so as you go about assessing this back-and-forth, how honestly, how fearful are you about press freedoms? i'm not saying that it is illegitimate to be fearful of it. i am just curious how serious you take his threats, or do you consider them part act, political act? >> i mean, i think yes, there

is a dichotomy against trump worshiping the media and wanting coverage, and railing against the media and calling people fake news. but unfortunately, i think that it all does speak to the same thing. trump likes attention, for sure. but, given his tendencies, he wants all that they said to be good. whether they are true or not. he does not want a free and independent press. he wants propaganda. he wants people to tell him that he is the best leader ever. he wants people to tell him that there is nothing he can do wrong, that all of his ideas are the best ideas. that he won by a larger margin than anyone in the history of the country, which is not true. he does not want a press to tell the truth, and less it is a truth that he sees as making him look good. so yes, he does enjoy having an enemy. someone to push back against. to point at the press at rallies and say look, those are the people who are telling made- up things about me.

and get the crowds to boo so the crowd is on his side. but he is completely willing to go around us, or come after us in the press should we keep saying things that are true that he does not like. >> and max, just one more on the state of journalism as it is, because if they are indeed going to reimagine the press briefing room, look, i was there in the obama years when they were also going to reimagine the press briefing room and call on people in the back row, and it was going to be online journalists and all that stuff. and in the end, there were changes. but fundamentally, tv still dominated. major print organizations still dominated. are we in a different place now, where in fact we have seen enough of a sort of institutional shift, where, in fact, podcasters, alt media figures, nontraditional reporters will be prioritized? or are we had a place where television still is king, where legacy media is king? >> i think it's a really great

question. april said something earlier that i thought was important. which is that trump actually did try to do this last time. a great example of this was there was someone from the gateway pundit, kind of an they announced after trump's's

first win, that they would have a white house correspondent in the briefing room. and this person showed up, went to a few briefings, did not ask any questions, and eventually left because essentially it was

boring and it was not necessarily something that they were interested in, covering the ins and outs of policy and the day-to-day machinations of the federal government in the white house. so i think while trump's team might want to have joe rogan there, the question is whether rogan himself wants to be in the white house briefing room. my guess is that he probably doesn't, because he could just interview trump for three hours and that is much more interesting than having to wait your turn or show up there every day, go through all the security, and maybe get one question. i think even if trump wants to remake the briefing room, i don't know if these youtubers or podcasters or twitch streamers want to be in there every day asking questions about agriculture and policy changes, or whatever the big news of the day is. >> yeah, they don't know. it's a lot of waiting around in that room. >> hurry up and wait. >> max, april, hayes, max, sorry, you're not sticking around. the april and hayes, you are. coming up, is donald trump

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donald trump is filling his incoming administration with allies from florida, which should come as no surprise, clearly. he won the state with three percentage points in 2020. of course, it is home to mar-a- lago. trump's pick for attorney general, pam bondi, and secretary of state, marco rubio, in addition to be his allies. a veteran in the political world. just like trump, ford is confusing and full of contradictions. floridians have lived through two of the deadliest mass shootings in u.s. history. yet lawmakers keep loosening gun laws. is a state that prides itself on being a place where people can live free from government interference, but it's leaders

police women's bodies and decide what kids can read. despite its hundreds of miles of suffering coastlines, talking about climate change is taboo. soon enough, this weird political culture in the white house. back to my panel. just today we had canadian prime minister justin trudeau, he flew to florida to meet with trump over his tariffs. trump often takes major meetings at mar-a-lago and might do so during his presidency, as well. look, florida is like the second white house, right? it's going to be the epicenter of u.s. politics for the next four years. >> yeah, absolutely. it was weird in the first term when we were referring to mar-a- lago as the winter white house because trump would fly down there to escape d.c.. in the winter months. but it is something that apparently we have to get used to again. trump is going to, trump does not like being, even though he likes being the president in

the sense of being protected from lawsuits and from criminal trials, he does not like being physically in the white house a lot of the time. he wants to be on his golf course, he wants to be at mar-a- lago. and having moved to florida, which has so very much embraced him as his people now, it makes sense that he is stepping up his administration, people who have been around him, who have had the most access to him, who have supported him as he has made that shift from a new yorker to a floridian. >> right, in many ways it is kind of the state as a reflection of trump. it is filled with people who have moved there as retirees, like himself, but those people often come from blue states and they go down to florida. they have embraced these culture wars that have really personified the desantis administration. and trump, too, has played a role in that. april, i'm wondering if you see it that way. if you see trump as a manifestation of for politics,

or is florida politics a manifestation of trump? >> you know, i think the two merge very well together. you know, donald trump is, the reality show star who is now president, and he likes the entertainment of it, as well. think about this. florida went after mickey mouse. the state of florida when after mickey mouse over the lgbtq plus community. and that is something that trump wants to go against, as well. banned books, black books, anti- woke this, what they consider. they were very maverick he like sarah palin said in that. there were so many pieces to this puzzle for the state of florida that matches so well with donald trump. but florida is also a place, we can't forget what florida is. it is agriculture. it is tourism. it is economy. it is climate. it is so many different things that will be in the news in the

next two, three, four years, even longer. so florida is a very critical state. and i just wanted to give this piece, this back foot, as well. remember when george w. bush was president? he would go to the southwest white house, what they called it at the time, in texas. so trump is not the first person to make another place, or in his mind, the white house in another location. >> right, hayes, so trump went for matt gaetz emma also from florida, for his first pick. it did not work out, then he went with pam bondi. is this because he is familiar with these people, now residing in for the? obviously he has a connection with bondi. bondi worked on his impeachment trial. trump has donated to her while she was considering an investigation into trump university. is this familiarity that we are seeing, because i will note that another state that is staffing a lot of these potential government posts for trump, they are from new york. trump's other state.

is it just that, is it familiarity? >> it is familiarity mixed with how much are you going to do the thing i want you to do? and matt gaetz was, in trump my in mind, even though it was apparently reportedly cited on a whim on a flight, that matt gaetz is the kind of person who would be the kind of attorney general who would do whatever trump says is the law. not worry about what is actually legal or not. in the same way, pam bondi has shown herself to be someone who trump can rely on to do what is in her best interest. especially if that aligns with him. so i think, in trying to put pam bondi, i think also there is no one else that really comes to mind who fits those two frameworks. someone who has been the ag of estate, who has held that role, who has been someone who is the chief law enforcement officer of a full state in the executive branch of that state. and is also willing to listen

to him and say you know what? yeah, we can make an exception here. we can find whatever you need to in the law here to make sure things go okay for you. >> yeah, it is an interesting combo. hayes in april, i'm not done with you to, stick around. we are shifting gears to gaza where palestinians are facing a new threat from harsh winter conditions. regina king is in our studio looking radiant as ever. don't cover up your glow. ♪♪ flawless. all eyes on you. skin esteem is a beautiful thing. ♪♪ my name is brayden. i was five years old when i came to st. jude. i'll try and shorten down the story.

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>> let's turn to gaza, where palestinians who fled israeli bombings are facing the added threat of harsh winter conditions. here is nbc's hala gorani. >> reporter: they ran from the bombs only for the seed to come from them. the storms in the region sweeping away what you belongings the displaced in gaza have left. here in congress, tarps became makeshift homes on the shifting sands of the beach. but the elements all but destroyed them. children here pick canned food from the sand, floating in trash filled water. the c will kill us, says this woman. they live 17 to a tent here. with winter coming, the winds are stronger. plastic trash bags flapping in the wind. the air getting colder.

nature, unforgiving, even towards the most vulnerable in its path. i have no clothes for her, they are all wet, says mother jamaal. holding her five-month-old daughter in a football field in gaza city turned camp for the displaced. dark clouds hangover the tents. rain is in the forecast. and the residence tried to insulate their tents, doing what they can to keep the water out with old, rolled up rugs. a woman who has lost her husband and son cleans a coffeepot with the sand, with no warm clothing or sanitation, or clean water. they say they are on the verge of freezing. temperatures here can dip into frost overnight. death would be better than this life, she says. as the bombs continue to fall.

israel has damaged or destroyed two thirds of the structures in gaza, according to the u.n.. so there are fewer and fewer shelters across the strip. that means that for many of the homeless in gaza, as winter approaches, there will be no place left to hide. talk to you. >> thanks to nbc's hala gorani for that. we will be right back after this ♪♪ good to go out even later. ♪♪ with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider, as few as 6 times a year. don't take cabenuva if you're allergic to its ingredients, or taking certain medicines, that may interact. serious side effects include allergic reactions or rash, post-injection reactions, liver problems, and depression. if these occur, get medical help right away. tell your doctor about your medicines or supplements,

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all right, it is time now for our worst of the week. and normally we like to pair two unfortunate candidates against each other. but this time it is really no contest. this week's dishonor goes to florida state senator randy fine. trump back republican is currently running to philly soon to be vacant seat in the house of representatives, but fine is already threatening two of his potential collies. he has targeted congresswomen rashida tlaib and ilhan omar, the only two muslim members of congress. they might consider leaving before i get there. he ended his deranged post with a hashtag bombs away. all right. my panel is back with me now. hayes, let's start with your reaction to this post. they have been subjected to racist attacks since they were elected. trump infamously told them to

go back where they came from. that was a quote. now republican endorsed by the president-elect feels empowered to make this violent post. what you make of this? >> i want him, should he win this special election to fill the seat, should he actually become a congressman from florida? i want him to stay that to the congressman's faces. i really have severe doubts that randy fine would have the courage to try to say that to rashida tlaib or ilhan omar's faces. and that lack of fortitude, that willingness to play big online and shrink down in person is really part and parcel with the maga brand. >> yeah, i don't know if i want him to say into their faces. i will be honest, i hope he does not say at all. april, this is not the first time that fine has engaged in this type of rhetoric towards muslims and other marginalized communities. in 2021 he celebrated the

bombing of the gaza strip on facebook with that same bombs away hashtag. and last year he said he was fine with erasing, that is a quote, the lgbtq community under the guise of protecting children from them. i guess this is a pattern with this man. >> it is an unsafe pattern. you know, when you are someone who is a leader in the federal government, you have to have a sober mind, sober thoughts, sober words. and when you are a leader who is representing america, if you will, even though he is from florida, he is voting on things on all around the country. and even possibly the world. you represent everyone, to include those in the lgbtq plus community. to include muslims. to include people like the congresswomen he is talking about, and i do not want to see him jump in front of the congresswomen as women.

he should never say those kinds of things in their faces, but i think that would create a hostile atmosphere that right now this nation does not need. his words are incendiary and let's see if he does meet the mark to go to the house. >> well, something that is happening here, and i want to get your take on this. there is kind of this outrage industrial complex, where you say something totally off-the- wall, incredibly outrageous, and look, we are talking about it. and he can fund raise off. he gets to be more of a celebrity in his circles. i'm reminded of this past week, congresswoman elect, congresswoman nancy mays, who relentlessly attacked her soon- to-be colleague, sarah mcbride, the first openly trans person ever elected to congress. this was actually a pivot for mace, because in the past she had actually been pro-trans in her rhetoric. but is this just what it takes to succeed now? as a maga republican?

you got outrage people? >> yeah, absolutely. and coming from the top . but i want to point out, it is not something that was invented by donald trump. this is been going on since long before he was on the scene. he has helped bring it to the forefront. but i remember when i was first getting started out uncovering politics, you would see state legislatures like randy fine saying the wildest things about muslims, about gay people, hoping to make the national press. so you are right, there is this industrial complex about it, where we are now discussing it, his name is becoming more public, but it helps break the country down further that this is what they think it means to be someone who is an elected official, not a public servant. >> in april, quickly, because we don't have too much time, but what you do as a journalist when you know the people are trying to get a rise out of you and to do that they go off and they threaten their potentially future colleagues? do you cover it?

i think you kind of have to. but certainly you know in the back of your mind that they are trying to use you, right? >> yeah, you cover it. but you also have all voices in it. you don't give so much life and fire to that that is so incendiary. you try to give it light, enough so people can say oh, i am aware of it. but also counter it with real news and people talking about what it does, what it means, et cetera. so we have to really figure out in this moment, polite society is gone as those who are hating others are trying to make it mainstream. >> i agree with that. all right, hayes brown, april ryan, thank you both so much, we really appreciate it. and thank you for making time with us on this really crazy night. i appreciate that, too. i am sam stein in for ayman mohyeldin. have a good night. ry 8 weeks.

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