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welcome back to the weekend. we know donald trump is tapping unqualified loyalists for the most consequential roles in the country but not just any unqualified lawyers. he is fixated on what is called the bad boys. noting that trump has unabashedly surrounded himself with men who have said, done or been accused of things that would disqualify them under any other u.s. leader in our lifetime. men like pete hegseth, matt gaetz, rfk jr. and now the head of the fbi despite little experience in law enforcement and her record of promoting dangerous conspiracies against the 2020 election and the so- called deep state. joining us now is our msnbc contributor and host of the fast politics podcast and nyu history professor and author of strongmen mussolini to the president. will come to you both.

good to have you at the table. >> i have to hear what you have to say about kash patel. >> so, like the other nominees , we could think of him as totally unqualified. but in fact, if you look at it through an authoritarian lens, all these people are uniquely qualified to serve an authoritarian presidency in the case of kash patel, who is qanon adjacent and a diehard loyalist, what matters is, loyalty to the leader and willingness to do whatever he wants, and also the destruction of truth and the destruction of procedure, professional ethics of adherence to fact-based procedures, all of that has been very important to the fbi and now will be part of the agenda of things to be destroyed, to be replaced by

blind beliefs, ella tree and whatever the leader says the truth is. >> to ruth's point, molly, you had our national security advisor, jake sullivan, on meet the press this morning. let's take a listen to what he had to say about the biden administration's efforts to adhere to something close to the rule of law. >> the only thing i can point out is that the biden administration, adhere to the long-standing norm that fbi directors serve out their full terms because the fbi director's unique player in the american government system. that is how we approach things and we would like to ensure that the fbi remains an independent institution insulated from politics. >> that is a big part of this idea of how we self govern. we have these institutions like the fbi that standalone. the fbi director as well as the

head of the doj, attorney general, they are not private entities for the use of the executive branch or the president. how do you assess that desire against the reality that ruth laid out that we are being set up here with an authoritarian leader the plans to do very authoritarian things with these institutions? >> i want to point out that christopher wray is a trump appointee. and he still has three years left on his term. if second term trump wants to get rid of first term trump's fbi director, that is a real question. and first of all, he will have to get through the rest of the cabinet and then he could deal with this. it is december 1st. none of this happens until trump is in office which is in until late january. i'm not an optimist by any stretch of the imagination here. we have seen that optimism has not served us well the last six

months. i do think it is fair to say that this -- these are a lot of appointments that will be hard to swallow. and they can only afford to lose three senators and i do think that they are going to have to say, are we going to give up advice and consent? are we going to give up our powers so early on in a second trump term? and they very well may. but there are a bunch of candidates here who are really not the norm. >> can i follow up on that really quick. that is an interesting connection point. these centers have power here that they can use to support the president of the party but at the same time preserve the integrity and the dignity of the chamber that they represent by adhering to the

constitutional principle, the norm, of advice and consent. how does that stack up given the margins are so tight, that they can't afford to lose 3-4 it senators in the process. that they have power they can wield. does history show us where the power the people look at and go, i really want to give it to the authoritarian? >> that's it. >> during the impeachment of 2019, sherrod brown wrote an op- ed for the new york times that is very important to my thinking. i think it is in my book. and he said, in united states senate, fear does the business. and we have seen articles by gabriel sherman very recently that powerful people, senators senators, and this is so

dispiriting for the american population, are afraid. they are afraid for physical safety. january 6th was a very useful shock events and the republicans well as democrats and staffers, running for their lives, calling their families and saying, i don't know if i will ever see you again. these people are afraid. that plus careerism opportunism, leads people to rarely do the right thing in terms of the norm in a democracy. they have folded more often than not. and that is a learned kind of, you could say learned helplessness or learned compliance. that is why we have not seen too many of them speak out. >> can i push back? >> yes. >> i love you and we are friends. rick scott wanted to be the leader of the senate and trump wanted him to be the leader of the senate and he is not going to be the leader of the senate.

>> very brave on secret ballot. >> matt gaetz was told that there were 20-30 senators that were not going to vote for matt gaetz. we have already seen but this is not a hole in one senate does have power. are they brave? maybe not. >> are they brave in their calculus and where they are choosing to use it? >> if you nominate someone who is so toxic and so many ways. >> but isn't kash patel the same? >> yes, he is. but having gone through the whole matt gaetz thing, and maybe won't make it through. and pete hegseth is totally unqualified in so many ways, starting with the tattoos and the private life behavior. talking about insurgencies. completely disqualified to be dod head.

if you start with these people, with pam bondi, that is a trump loyalist who, her ethics are questionable but she is better than gaetz. >> i'm not saying they are doing this on purpose. but even the new normal which perhaps senators would accept, is not the old normal. >> for either one of you, are these folks that are being leveled up, particularly the lawyers out of trump world. the ones that are there defending him and all the trials. we were just talking with kristi greenberg about some of that. are they there as the new guard real, the protectors, the defenders and enforcers? that will be the role. so they bring in inside pressure. not just on those inside the administration but those outside of it like the senate for example, that are basically

sitting there in fear because of their own personal interest as well as political interest? >> yes. when you have an authoritarian that is invariably corrupt and has had a history of legal problems, should we say, it makes it inevitable that you will surround yourself with lawyers that are enforcers. and the relationship of most authoritarians with personal lawyers for example, a lot of personal lawyers end of going to jail but the authoritarian never does. so the more criminal and disruptive you intend to be, the more you want your loyalist lawyers there. >> i agree. and we are not heading anywhere good. i'm not making the case that things are good. i just want to look back at congress for a minute. in 2016, trump had huge margins in the house of representatives. huge.

like 50 plus. and now they have two or three. >> he may not have the majority by the time he is done. >> exactly. and mike johnson had a terrible time with the last congress. the 218th congress was a disaster. they barely passed anything. it was messaging bills and the case for gas stoves. it was a fiasco. i'm just saying, yes for sure, the impulses are authoritarian and yes, there is a lot to be worried about. also, these people do not have the kind of wherewithal that they might need to overthrow the system. >> in addition to who it is, i think there is a question of, who is funding all of this. this, the new york transition team from trump on secret money. this is a common thread throughout the first trump

administration and campaign. what concerns you the most with not having transparency into who it is? >> i keep thinking of the revelation that only came out fairly recently and well after trump office, about 20 foreign nations, many of them autocracies including china, which was the biggest, one of the biggest donors, was actually getting money we did not know about to trump that would go personally to his business is also while he was president. the chinese had invested $5 million. >> and now they are getting a 100% tariff. >> that is how that works. >> that is significant. we can expect more of the same for us. transparency and accountability are better acts of democracy and those have never been had, even when trump was a private businessman on how he

operates. >> i don't think there will be much in the transparency space here. i think a lot of people sit around thinking, there will be a lot of sunlight shown on the actions of these people and i don't think so. they are going to work in the dark because that is typically what they do. they don't want that sunlight on them. >> this is why they don't like the mainstream media. they don't want the reporting that will show people. >> we will talk about that more. they are both sticking with us. we will continue this conversation after a quick break. this is the weekend on msnbc. . bye, bye bucket. with the swiffer powermop.

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overnight, we got the exciting news that charles kushner is going to be the next ambassador to france. what say you? >> it is interesting.

trump is no fan of emmanuel macron and democratic france. and in a way, sending a convicted villain to this very prestigious position, everybody wants to go to france. to send someone like that there is a kind of demonstrating your scorn and disrespect for the nation. we also have nepotism and play. i wrote an article on sons and law an authoritarian history so this has very much to do with jared as well as charles. >> what are the sons and law. >> they always have to be in the inner circle even if they don't have official jobs because they are in and yet not

in the family. and so they are playing a big -- most of authoritarian leaders end up appointing a son- in-law. >> i will push back. >> to backfill a little bit on charles, he was convicted of having to set up his son-in- law, daughter. >> brother-in-law. >> with the whole sexual thing and then got pardoned by trump on that. so to your point, that sort of closes one loop but you have another -- >> my hottest take is that this is normal nepotism and corruption versus abnormal which is a lot of politicians rewarding big donors but putting them as the ambassador to europe and in fact, trump, and his first term put newt

gingrich his wife and multiple positions. >> are you allowing the window that we start having a relative sense of what is normal? >> i think there our alarm fire's and there are small brushfires that will go out on their own. ambassadors, big donors getting bored with ambassadorships are not great. but a totally nonpartisan activity. where kash patel is leading the fbi. there is no precedent for that. >> there is no precedent for any of this. >> not domestically at least. >> not domestically. we have not been here. we have forwarded with that in the 1930s. you have written about that. and talked about that ugly history.

leadership has always pushed back. i raise this up about the republican party. we have been on this glide path to authoritarianism, going back to the days of roosevelt. and the 1950s with nixon and his southern strategy. and ronald reagan, beginning his campaign and the worst place possible in mississippi where civil rights workers were killed. we have had this history. but in a lot of ways, it is different because for the first time, it feels a little more real. to your point, simone, little more normal. we were just talking to this. a little bit more personal. a little more real. a little closer then it was before as simone would tell us. >> it is.

and the whole premise of this government, if you think the way trump does, he doesn't work for the people. he doesn't work for the party. they all work for him. and the purpose of authoritarian governance is different than democratic governance. they are interested in amassing power, creating an inner circle which is the cabinet but also loyalists that are not kind of inner sanctum which is where elon musk comes in and will ease the corruption for themselves as well as the a guard model. improving the welfare of the nation has nothing to do with authoritarian governance. and so kash patel is very important in this too. he doesn't believe in truth. he believes the leader has the right to determine what is truth . and for someone to head the fbi

that has that mentality is devastating. and what is more, everybody works for trump. trump doesn't work for anyone. >> i think it is important to understand what it is he is building and the way it works. which is part of why i'm so taken by what is happening outside the infrastructure i'm not sure if you saw the reporting in the wall street journal about the fact that you already have a lot of ceos figuring out how to curry favor with this administration going so far as to book themselves on podcast he might listen to. we talked earlier about tim snyder and the idea of obeying in advance. i talked with the ambassador about the idea of autocratic capture and the fact that part of what you want is resistance from the outside from other institutions. we are already seeing some of that resistance fold. >> i have a question here if i can be annoying. when he was a candidate, he ran as an autocrat. and you could not normalize

that. it was not normal. it could not be normalized. now he is the president. he is about to be the president in two months. and so now, he is, by factor of the fact that he has been elected by a large swath of the american people, the president, and i'm curious and this is a question for everyone here. i'm going to lean toward this, how do you cover someone when you know they have autocratic tendencies hooks you have to cover him. he is the president. he will be the president. the question is, you have to cover him but you cannot normalize him. by fact that he has been elected, he has been normalized. >> that is a question for the press but i also think there is a question for business leaders about how to deal with the fact that you will fundamentally need some interaction with the top government people in power, knowing who they are? >> one question, how do you cover, today's playbook, there is actually a revival of this in the world.

they are elected. over time, it takes them time to get into a position where vladimir putin is. and for democracy, trump is coming in with the situation because of the supreme court handling of the immunity in the presidential figure of immunity, he is coming in with powers that other autocrats have had to work for years to get. and fox, the reason several of his cabinet come from fox, even pam body when she was florida ag, she hosted a fox show that was shifting the window. he also has a de facto propaganda network. if you look at this from the perspective, the framework of authoritarianism, he is already coming in, yes he was elected but he is coming in the way viktor orban was elected too. so how do we cover them? the

reason kash patel said he is going after the media is that, whatever -- however we do it, if we are in the media and commentators or analysts, we expose the corruption and the wrongdoing. and we say that it is not normal. it is not democratic. >> where the people in this? we just went through an election. we have to go. i know. where do people stand in this equation? >> it is one of those things that timothy schneider has written about that every person can make a big difference pick that is why we need to not give up hope and we need to talk to these republican senators who can pretty norms and institutions and the goal is to protect norms and institutions. >> a treat to have you both with us at the table. quick programming note. next saturday, check out the

msnbc new documentary "separated" based on the book by our colleague that examines trump's border separation policy as he begins to assume power again. separated is this coming saturday at 9:00 p.m. right here on msnbc. look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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we talked about the wall street journal article on how corporate america is launching this unorthodox campaign. but there are details i want to hit. details are companies looking at scrubbing left-wing policies or websites, scoping out appearances on conservative podcasts and executives discussing whether or not to go on the joe rogan podcast. they are buying trump family crypto currency tokens and e- mailing spending cut tips to vivek ramaswamy and then you have mark zuckerberg, the meta- ceo, dining with trump on mar-a- lago wednesday. >> my question is, what do they think all of this gets them? >> proximity. >> to what? you are giving up

leverage that you already have by virtue of the position that your company has in the global economic space. you are, by right, if you are the head of a microsoft or other major pharmaceutical company, you already have that wait. you have folks on capitol hill and around washington and around the country and state capitals that lobbied the issue for you and put you in positions. i don't understand what these people are doing. i don't understand why they are cow telling so readily to one person who is not the governor of the state where they have legislation in front of the legislators there to deal with healthcare issues or a market issue or some other issue. to me, it seems a little -- and i get it. you don't want to play de i

anymore. i get it. that's all right. we understand. we know what you are up to. but don't think when you come back around on the back end of this, that it is going to be easy for you. because folks remember how quickly you gave up on creating avenues of equality and your very institutions. and we are already seeing how this plays out. some universities are reporting, guess what, we don't have as many minority kids in the class of 2028 as we thought we would have. well, hello, you have no reason to select a competent and capable black person or brown person over a white person because that is the way you will play the game now. >> something angela said how about project 2025 and a lot of this which is a pushback against a multicultural society like this. it is actually part of the framework and what it is they are going for. that suspension of de i. it is not just about whether or not it is woke.

that is not the point. >> that is not the point. and it is such a bs argument to make in the first place. how the hell do you think the country was founded? it was a combination of cultures coming together on this land to create this country at the expense of the folks already here by the way. >> and we don't want to talk about that. we want to wipe the history out as if it never existed. >> i was going to say quickly come what do you advise the ceos to do? >> stand firm. you have market share. you have consumers and customers that are voters. lean into that and not be afraid to give up that position to one man who at the end of the day will still crap all over you anyway but how do you think this ends? i don't think you understand. we will talk about this next with the congresswoman elect to discuss her big win in oregon and her former opponent

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next month, oregon's first black member of congress will be sworn in. janelle bynum defeated lori chavez-deremer in november flipping the state's fifth congressional district blue. janelle bynum tweeted at the time "proud to be the first but not the last black member of congress from oregon."

janelle bynum joins us now. >> good morning congresswoman elect. >> a pleasure to welcome you to washington in a couple of months. >> welcoming back. it is home. >> that is right. the oregonians made it very clear. democrat janelle bynum said she will work in congress to make congress better for the next generation. and so many ways, all the conversations we have had this morning really have touched on the next generation. how the government, the incoming government is setting up the nation in my view, for failure which will have a direct impact on how the future is governed by the young men and women that you want to represent and will represent in oregon. >> last night i was at the

oregon ducks game and i was standing there waiting for my friends and one young lady came up and said, are you janelle bynum? she was about 24. she said, i voted for you and i was so happy to vote for you. i think the reason she was so delighted and excited weeks after the election is one thing i focused on is making sure our kids had opportunities. marrying talent with opportunities. something i ran on pick something i have been consistent about. it is one of those things that crosses red lines and blue lines for people want to know, will their kids do better then they have done ex-or at least maintain quick that is the hope we need to have for the next generation. that is one of the things that i'm fearful about with lori chavez-deremer going into the administration and talking a lot of talk but not really delivering for young people. >> let's talk about that. she of course has been nominated as a trump labor secretary pick.

this from the new york times. one of only a few house republicans to support major prounion legislation. she split her endorsements. democratic opponent, you, earning nods from ironworkers, firefighters and local teams in this conversation about where she stands on labor. what you want folks to know? >> america cannot trust lori chavez-deremer. i came in beating her not once but twice but three times. oregonians have already told you that they don't trust her either. what she will do is promise. she will talk a big talk but she can't walk the walk who she will say something in committee and a lot of americans don't necessarily understand the process. she will say something to appease them but when it comes time to vote, it comes time to put up and stand up for the american people, she is nowhere to be found it i kept asking, will you stand by your man?

she stood by trump and he rewarded a loser. that is what the american people are going to get if she is confirmed. a straight up loser. >> there are a lot of folks that trump has nominated. we could go through the list. robert f kennedy junior, department of health. the national institutes of health, dave weldon, disease control and prevention. doctor oz, center for medicare and medicaid. the food and drug administration. doctor janette nesheiwat, surgeon general. all these folks in the health space, how do you see your being a check as a member of congress in the face of a u.s. health system that is likely to come under full frontal assault not just involving the aca but how kids are vaccinated and how food is processed, et cetera.

? >> we have to tell the truth about what is happening in america. for instance, maternal mortality is a real thing. kids not being able to access mental healthcare and our schools. teachers have talked about that. they have pleaded with us to make sure we have mental health providers around the country. people have told us that it is important for us to have reproductive care. whether you agree with abortion morally or not. when women have challenges with healthcare, they actually need to see a doctor who is not afraid to prescribe the course of action necessary to keep them alive. this is what i'm talking about. people asked me, how will you win against the culture wars like number one, you win elections and number two, you provide an honest check with the american people that you will always fight and stand up for the values even in the face of people that will lie straight to your face. i think it is more important for democrats and the american

people to just play your game. i tell my kids all the time, they would come home and say the field was bad. it had davidson it. or the lighting was bad in the gym. and i'm like, play your game. stay in the gym. learn the playbook, change the game. be a disruptor in your own right . that is how you fix these clowns. that is how you make sure that the game stays with the american people and that the kids have a better future to look forward to. i'm not playing with these people. i'm simply not. >> let's talk about the playbook they are planning to run in the first 100 days because we are starting to learn a lot about that. a fight over tax cuts and over immigration plans and they will be doing it with what is a more slim majority then they needed to have, self-inflicted wound. do you see any areas of compromise and where you see

the opportunity for democrats joined with republicans and pushing back against what is an incredibly extreme agenda. >> and can you get republicans to push back? >> a lot of it is looking for where they are in chaos and where you are in lockstep with the american people. as i mentioned before, everybody wants to make sure the kids are safe at school. it is a common value. when we talk about mental health and growing a number of providers that we put in schools and supporting teachers , that is a thing that reaches across the spectrum. when we talk about making sure kids have checkups, we have to grow the number of doctors in this country, making sure that they have a chance to matriculate through school. these are issues that the american people don't have a lot of arguments about. so you focus on what you agree on and you let them work to the chaos. i can tell you that they don't

know what they are doing. they have no idea. and they are not primed to deliver. i think when lawmakers are focused on delivering for their constituents rather than delivering for themselves, that is when the american people win and that is what we are going to do this next congressional session. >> i'm curious how this plays out. the fundamental interest on their part is the corporate piece of this. but they will sell to folks as if they will get a tax cut. >> and they didn't the last time. i remember talking to a buddy that was in the tax cuts. and said, how much did you get? and he's like, i got $50 a week. okay. you know that guy over there that has a big building with his name on it, not trump but another businessman, he got 100 million. >> it is the fleecing of america. and people shouldn't fall for the okey-doke.

you should be able to point to the fact that you got, i don't know, 300-$500,000 in your bank account and you canretire. not necessarily on that but you can retire in peace and send your kids to college or trade school or buy them a car they need in order to chase their dreams. when you can't show what is in your bank account because the american people have been fleeced, that to me is a tragedy. and that is what we have to start talking about. put up or shut up. if they are going to put american dollars in american bank accounts of the american people, i want to see the plan. i have not seen it yet. they are in chaos. they are in dysfunction and they will be held to making sure their promises cannot for the american people. >> i can tell you can't congresswoman elect, you likely won't see that plan because there is not one. except for project 2025.

congresswoman janelle bynum of oregon, thank you so much. great to have you on today. >> we have more to discuss and we will do it right here on the weekend. antly m. my name is brayden. i was five years old when i came to st. jude. i'll try and shorten down the story. so i've been having these headaches that wouldn't go away. my mom, she was just crying. what they said, your son has brain cancer. it was your worst fear coming to life.

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i'm curious. has anyone scene jd vance at all? >> just putting it out there. do the numbers still work? you have to call elon musk first? i don't understand. >> really what you are saying is not just about his absence but the fact that there are so many people that are so visibly proximate to the incoming president. >> right. typically, you have, i mean this is a partnership. the 25th amendment or you just don't wake up the next day. jd vance steps in. that is part of the partnership. the reality of it is, he is nowhere to be found which i find to be interesting which levels of the narrative around elon musk and

vivek ramaswamy which i think will be a very interesting dynamic duo. i don't know who is batman and who is robin and that relationship yet but i have my suspicions. >> is of the argument, you have added. this cannot last very long just the fundamental dynamics, that power. >> that is why they are doing the whole podcast thing. to keep themselves relevant. that is the risk reward situation. you are rewarded with popularity and more popularity with the public but then the risk is donald trump looks at the and goes, you are getting better then i am. >> how are you going to offshore someone like elon musk ? and the trump orbit, how do you do it? >> all the sudden, he is not invited to mar-a-lago. he is not in the room. and he is not the only player in space.

jeff bezos has blue sky which is a big deal as well. blue origin. i was thinking blue sky. he has blue origin. so you have these other players that are still out there that donald trump can play with. donald trump plays with you. like a cat with his toy. and he flips it and whips it and knocks it around. you bring home another one. and he will play with that one for a bit. for a lot of these folks, they find themselves right now being pawed affectionately by donald trump until the claws come out and he rips into the toy. that is the reality here. talk to people in new york. they will tell you what it is like being in that space with him where one moment he is loving and the next time you find yourself being clawed at.

that is why this whole dosage thing will be an interesting thing to watch how they stand it up. >> and the bureaucracy they are standing up to. >> at the end of the day, it is just air. there are so many other players that will have a say in the success of this. that is not the point. the point is to posture a position, he gave them something to do. and they will now go off at a podcast and do that and congress will decide whether or not the line item but digits budgets will decide what to cut. >> can we bring out that jd vance picture really quick. >> isn't that precious? carving up the country. >> moorehead on the weekend after this. stay with this! ole fa

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♪ ♪ so, that's it for us on "the weekend" this sunday morning. we will see you back here next saturday at 8:00 a.m. eastern. and follow us on social media @the weekend msnbc. we are also now on blue sky, blue sky, so please give us a follow there as well. and there is our manvel shi. he will contain you after this, good, interesting coverage that you just had a cupful of for two hours. >> you did. and i was very honored to be a

part of