how are you doing? 4:00 in new york. brand new and explosive reporting reveals a litany of controversies and scandals and deeply troubling incidents. to call into serious question donald trump's nominee for defense secretary. we are talking about pete hegseth. reporting brings into question his ability to lead any organization, much less the department of defense, one of the world's lars gest of our security. "the new yorker is reporting this. quote.

among those documents, a whistleblower report compiled by multiple employees of the conservative koch brothers funded for america in 2015 and sent to the group. it says when hegseth was the president of the cva, he was, quote. the report also says that hegseth, who was married at the

time, and other members of his management seem sexually pursued the organization's female staffers who they divided in to two groups. the ", party girls" and the, quote, not party girls. under hegseth's leadership the organization became a hostile workplace that ignored serious accusations of impropriety that another employee on hegseth's staff had attempted to shrooul assault her at the louisiana strip club. an attorney for hegseth declined to speak out today but he said the allegations were outlandish and raised by a former and petty employee. the new yorker obtained an email with the subject line,

congratulations on removing pete hegseth. the new yorker reports that it was, quote, sent to hegseth's successor as president of the group jae pao on january 15th, 2016. the email by one of the whistleblowers said this, quote. among the staff the disgust for pete was pretty high. most veterans do not think he represents them nor their high standard of excellence. the email also stated that hegseth had a history of alcohol abuse and it treated the organization funds like they were a personal expense account for partying, drinking, and using cva events as little more than opportunities to hook up with women on the road. we should note that nbc news has not seen the whistleblower report. nbc news has also reached out to the trump transition team and has yet to hear back from they. the new yorker adds that a

separate letter from the staffer flags a troubling incident that should set off alarm bells in the united states senate as it considers whether pete hegseth is the guy to lead an enormous and diverse work force. the letter alleges that, quote, hegseth and someone traveling with the group closed down the bar at the sheraton suites hotel. the duo yelled kill all muslims multiple times in what the staffer described as a drunk and violent manner. hegseth's despicable behavior, he wrote, embarrassed the entire organization. the staffer's letter cited a second incident in which he wrote hegseth passed out in the back of a party bus and then urinated in front of a hotel where cva team was staying. donald trump's pick to lead the

secretary of defense has allegations of mismanagement and misconduct. joining your coverage is ceo of iraq and afghanistan and veterans of america, former is back. plus msnbc political analyst is here and columnist charlie sykes joins us. claire, mccaskill, i start with you. it is documents based reporting and these documents exist. people that know pete hegseth seemed to be independence in making sure that the united states senate, which will consider his nomination, has all of the information before them as they consider if he is really the guy to lead the pentagon. >> yeah. first, you have to consider, nicole, where this information is coming from.

pete hegseth worked in republican centered organizations that were centered around veterans but some of them were political organizations trying to help republican candidates, conservative republican candidates get elected. and what these documents show is public drunkenness. they show sexual harassment and assault. and the third thing they show is gross mismanagement. let's not forget that third point. you know, running one of the largest organizations in the world, you have to know how to manage a large organization in people and the details of his mismanagement, the financial mismanagement, the professional mismanagement are really acute. and the drunkenness is really interesting because donald trump reportedly has no patience for

that. he does not drink. he encourages others not to drink. the idea that he has this guy who has been publicly drunk so many times that it has been reported over and over again, my heart hurts for all of the men and women in the pentagon, all of the leaders in our military that are shaking their head today going, how have we come to this? >> yeah. let me stay with you, claire, on the issue. you break it down, i think, exactly right. public drunkenness, being so out of control. urinating in public. being carried out of places. this is what democratic senator richard umenthal had to say, quote. they shouldn't be at the top of our national security structure. quote, it's dangerou the secretary of defense is involved in every issue of

national security. he is involved in the use of nuclear weapons. he is the one who approves sending troofs in to combat. he approves drone strikes that may involve civilian casualties. literally life and death issues are in the hands of the secretary of defense. in trusting these issues to someone incapacitated for any reason is a risk we cannot take. senator john talker, a republican from texas was voted down from his colleagues in 1989 because of concerns about his drinking and womanizing. it was the first time that the cabinet pick of a newly elected president george h.w. bush was rejected by him the senate. it will be a test, claire, an apples-to-apples test as to whether the united states senate in the year 2024 has the same standards, has the same spine

for the person with this job as it did in 1989. >> it will be very interesting, particularly the women on the armed services committee. we have now spent well over a decade struggling with issues of sexual assault in the military. we have women that serve on that panel that are military veterans. one wounded as a helicopter pilot, lost her legs, and joni ernst who served honorly many years and recounted the sexual assault and harassment she suffered while in the military. for women across the country who have worked in male-dominated organizations, we recognize this behavior. we have witnessed this behavior. we know this guy. we know who he is and how he behaves and what his priorities are. and i'm looking forward to joni

ernst, and she would exactly the right person to stand up and say this has nothing to do with his ideology or how many he supports donald trump or how much he believes the things that donald trump believes. this is about his fitness to serve in this important leadership capacity and i'm just hoping that joni ernst has the courage to do it. >> alison, let me share something that i just never covered before and never seen before. this is the text of an email that pete hegseth's mom sent to him. quote, you are an abuser of women. this is pete hegseth's mother writing to her son pete hegseth. quote, that the ugly truth and i have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around, and uses women for his own power and ego. you are that man and you have been for years. as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that.

but it is the sad, sad truth. i am not a saint, far from it, so don't throw that in my face but your abuse over the years to women, dishonesty, sleeping around, betrayal, debasing and belittling needs to be called out. she would go on to tell "the new york times" once she learned "the new york times" had a copy of this email that she had sent her son a follow-up email apologizing for what she said. all the the same, pete hegseth's mother by her own telling of, quote, anger and emotion, wrote those words to her son. >> there is definitely some concerning details that are coming out from a lot of people who know pete hegseth very well here and i think one of the things that i'm thinking about as this conversation continues is also, you know, our members of the united states senate when

they consider this nomination, thinking about whether pete hegseth is going to have the backs of women in the military. the variety of details here, as senator mccaskill recently mentioned. we also need to entrust the next secretary of defense to continue to address issues of military sexual assault and harassment in the military and how can we trust somebody who may be a harasser themselves to do that job? >> allison, let me show you what somebody who this job mark esper had to say about what pete hegseth's mom wrote. >> what do you think something like this says about his fitness to lead the department? >> i saw that story as well and kind of shocked by it. it's one thing to have your political opponents attack but it's it's pretty damming when

you get one from your mother. the more you're exposed, the more it is to opponents and others to pick at your resume at what you've said and done in the past. at this point in time trump has done a good job in terms of proposing a full cabinet at this point in time but they are going to sit out there rest of december and early january and no nomination hearings until after january 20th. that is a long time to be out there. you can expect more of this will come out with these nominees overtime and that is the danger when you're nominated for these positions. >> allison, it seems that if there were counter narratives and if there were examples of pete hegseth against this behavior of drinking on the job or treating women in these ways, or as his mother describes -- let me quote her.

an abuser of women. quote, belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women, the dishonesty sleeping around and debasing and betrayal needs to be called out there are examples in the workplace he is those. in trump world it seemed they would be all over conservative media right now. what do you think this arc of nomination looks like? >> you know, that remains to be seen. but i'm hoping that especially women in the -- excuse me. women who served in the military and are now serving in the u.s. senate will really meet the moment here. and i think what every u.s. senator has to think about and what this national conversation needs to be about is if we are as a country going to still fight our wars with an all-volunteer force we have to care about the culture and instead of the united states military and we have to put leadership atop the department of defense that is going to build a healthy culture, not a toxic culture.

and some hard questions need to be happening behind the scenes right now and in a hearing room, if he gets there. >> charlie sykes, i want to bring you in on this. i want to read you one more piece of reporting on the hegseth pick. this is from msnbc. what i learned after helping to vet pete hegseth for the rnc in 2016, by justin higgins, a former opposition researcher. quote, your thoughts. >> well, let's step back. all of the things you have been reading and reporting the last 15 minutes.

wow. wow. i mean, wow. this man is not just -- does not have one scandal and it is not one incident here and there. he is a global scandal and it is breath taking what we are learning in the fact that if this vote, if his nomination goes to the united states senate, a majority of republican senators will end up voting to confirm him as secretary of the department of defense, a position for which he is not at all qualified. but even this is a fraction of what we have learned about him. not only has his mom called him out, not only have his coworkers called him out. he paid money to a women who credibly accused him of rape. and we are not even talking about the kinds of public comments that he has made, the extremism of his books, his ties to some, very sketchy organizations. this is one of those moments you take a deep breath and go, okay, in any other moral or political universe would we be having this

conversation? pete hegseth would not be considered for any position in youth sports. no one would hire him in a position of responsibility with this kind of background. now, i understand this is kind of a footnote, you know, to the fact that, you know, the american public has elected a convicted felon and adjudicated rapist as president of the united states, but even given that, the fact that we are even remotely considering putting this man in charge of the 3 million men and women in the department of defense, putting him in charge of the world's most powerful military, is breath taking. i know we have had this conversation before, but there are these moments you have as to at the back and go, wow this is truly extraordinary and one hopes the members of the united states senate, either in those hearings or behind closed doors

will look at one another and say this cannot happen. we are not going to go along with this. >> i think, charlie, you're putting your fing on something that is going to be really important, not just the next 60 days but the next four years, which is just because adjudicated sexual abuser and convicted felon was selected by the american people to be the commander in chief, not only does it not sort of numb the senses when he then goes on to select other men credibly accused of rape, mismanagement, and public drunkenness, it requires the opposite. i think you're putting your finger on this idea of stepping back. i hear you. let us not become lulled into the idea that the american people pick this because pete hegseth wasn't on the ballot. rfk wasn't on the ballot. people have said on the show, they ran on make america healthy again.

fine. there are some people that have been crazed about fluoride in the water for years and they feel happy that rfk and donald trump prevailed, but it is not a majority of the electorate. it is more important than ever to be vigilant and to make sure that this reporting is in front of not just our viewers, but the members of the senate. >> yes. and i think that, you know, mark esper made an important point in that clip you mentioned. we have a long time now, as a country, and the decision makers, to take a look at these nominees and whether it was matt gaetz or pam bondi or whether it's any of these other, you know, rfk jr. or tulsi gabbard, and so there is no excuse that this needs to be rushed through. i think that -- again, taking this, you know, deep breath and

step back. understand what is at stake here, how powerful these jobs are. how many things will be affected and with pete hegseth, you're not just talking about an alcohol abuse problem, a sexual abuse problem, you know? those all go under the subject of character. this is a deeply damaged and, therefore, dangerous person who entrust the u.s. military and, at some point, i think there is going to have to be the reckoning. do you have so much contempt for the men and women in uniform that you would tell them to follow this man? you know, donald trump does not understand the military. he thinks it's about blowing things up and killing people. it is also about honor, loyalty, virtue and character. to put this man in charge of that institution is as profound of an insult as you can imagine. >> so important. i need all of you to stick

around. two things can be true at the same time. a steadfast belief and trust in this nation's justice system and the rule of law, and an understanding that politics can and does interfere in it sometimes. we will talk about that later in the broadcast. donald trump has officially picked the man he wants to help carry out his long promised revenge and retribution campaign against his perceived political enemies. someone who has pledged to do just about everything for him and even turned it in to fodder for a children's book. we will look at donald trump's pick to lead the fbi. all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. ♪♪ over 600,000 usps employees working in sync to ensure everything sent on its holiday ride ends with a moment of joy. ♪♪ the united states postal service.

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i want to be clear. i worked alongside pete hegseth on a project that he ran called veterans for freedom in 2008, 2009, and 2010 and these are political cycles in which the small nonprofit organization that he was running was trying to advocate for continuing the strategy in iraq and for continuing along -- this is at the time when pete hegseth was really a neocon. he was a supportive of the wars in iraq and afghanistan. i watched him run an organization very poorly. lose the confidence of donors. the organization ultimately folded and was forced to merge with another organization who individuals felt could run and manage funds on behalf of donors more responsibly. that was my experience with him and we have not stayed in close touch. >> that is important. the management level. >> these are management. yeah, this was a small nonprofit

full of maybe less than ten individuals with a budget less than $5 to $10 million and he couldn't do that properly? i don't know how he is going to run an organization with 857 billion dollar budget and 3 million individuals based on what i saw in those year >> that is margaret hoover in an interview with erin burnett over on cnn. she says i watched him run an organization poorly, lose the confidence of donors. the organization ultimately folded and was forced to merge with another organization whose individuals could run and manage the funds that we have with donors. in the instance of being the united states secretary of defense, the donors are the taxpayers, right? and the thing you mismanage is the deployment of active duty troops. have you heard from any of your former colleagues on the republican side of the aisle who are worried about those

disqualifying attributes? >> i think all of that. the conversations i've had, we have not talked specifically about pete hegseth yet. i can tell you there is a great deal of concern about the kind of nominees he is making in terms of their role of advise and consent, whether it's tulsi gabbard, pete hegseth, or this rid kash patel nomination for the fbi. donald trump is really overplaying his hands here. he didn't get 50% of the american vote. he ot less than 50% of the american vote. he is going to the very ends of the earth in terms of extremism to fill these roles. and i think he is doing it based on who he thinks can talk well on television. he thinks that is the only thing you have to do because, frankly, that is what he does. doesn't really manage much. he talks on television, watches

television, talks on television and does his thing on his social media app. but i do want to circle back to a point that my colleague made a few minutes ago about the fact this is a volunteer force. if you have scandals at the department of defense, if you have a leader that has engaged in public drunkenness, and dishonorable behavior and, frankly, remember, even committing commit ing adultery i iry is a violati and much less dancing on the stage with strippers. these are all violations of the military code that you can, in fact, be prosecuted for under the uniform code of military justice. how will you recruit people to come into this military? how will young men and women say i want to go there and i want to lay my life on the line to follow that good i n to battle.

it's a problem. it's more important if you can imagine in the military because all of these organizations depend on these people signing up to do these very dangerous jobs. >> charlie, it has this in this stupid spot of trying to figure out what the hell is trump thinking. as claire is talking, trump won. it is his prerogative to pick whomever he wants. why not put tom cotton atop the pentagon? ric grenell worked at the u.n. he had an intelligence post. why not put him instead of tulsi gabbard? at the fbi, jon cornyn. there are people who are ride or die trumpers who are not manifestly lacking character and qualifications. what do you make of what claire is pointing out, this slate? >> well, there is an advantage

perhaps to lack in character and qualifications and i'm reluctant to crawl down the rabbit hole of what donald trump is, in fact, thinking. what he seems to be looking for is not competence and is not stature and not any vitose. he is looking for loyalty. let's talk about some of these euphemisms for pete hegseth and kash patel. they are loyalists but they are not loyal to the constitution and they are not loyal to the institutions or the country but they are loyal to donald trump. these are men apple wen in the oval office and tell donald trump you cannot do this or, mr. president, that would be a violation of the law. so donald trump is actually very consciously choosing second, third tier, fourth tier, fifth tier characters because he knows that he can control them, he can squash them, he can bend them to his will.

so, i mean, of all the things we are talking about pete hegseth, his incompetence and lack of character. if donald trump says i want you to deploy members of the u.s. army on the streets of american cities to go after other americans, does anyone think that pete hegseth is the man that is going to say no and he will ever defy donald trump? when we talk about the term loyalty, understand he is trying to create a government that is loyal to him as a person. by the way, yes, all presidents have the prerogative to choose their cabinet but our system of government also says that the united states senate has the power of advice and consent. he is not entitled, no matter what percentage of the vote he gets, to put someone absolutely unfit in to positions of trust and honor in the united states government without the coequal of the branches of the government having a say. i think that, you know, this is what donald trump is doing. also, there is part of it,

nicole, it almost feels like donald trump is just giving this gigantic middle finger to the institutions that he now controls that he wants to destroy. it is such an insult to the department of justice to name matt gaetz or an insult to the fbi to name kash patel and an insult to the department of defense to name pete hegseth. we are getting this giant middle finger from donald trump and you can interpret that any way you like. >> allison, what everybody is saying, i guess, something that revealed by all of the reporting and book writing from the first term is that trump wants, in the case of the military, generals who are loyal to him. he told general john kelly he wanted people more like german generals and he pressed him and he meant hitler. what does that mean for the layers under where trump stops having his say? he picks hegseth and a couple of people beneath him or orders a

purge. come down the line to people that may have voted for donald trump, may have been his choice in the election, but who have, as a line, the constitution and the law and refuse to, you know, break the law for him. what kind of friction does that set up inside the military? >> i'd say a couple of things. first of all, as a reminder, those general officers and admirals are also confirmed by the u.s. senate so a lot of oversight by all corners of our government to make sure that the right people are at different positions, whether it's a political appointee. those individuals don't need -- you call it points of friction, nicole. they need stability from the top down within the institution that they serve in because they have to worry about instability in

the rest of the world. and so it is absolutely a national security issue to ensure that we have steady leadership that is leadership with character atop the department of defense, because our men and women serving in uniform don't need to deal with any more pressure and crises than what is already what happens if you look on the global stage today. >> they don't need manufactured crisis. allison, thank you for being a part of our conversation and charlie sykes, thank you for keeping us focus. claire sticks around for the hour. up next for us, whats look like a double standard revealing itself on the -- imagine that when it comes to presidential power. biden does it. shame on him. when donald trump does it, more, more, more. we will bring you that story next. we will bring you that story next so easy. swiffer. wow. the mother of all cleans. love it or your money back! hi, my name is damian clark. if you have both medicare and medicaid, i

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—how about saturday? —are they background-checked? my wife and i haven't been out in a year. we need a date night! no offense. find all the care you need at care.com tell me if this feels messy or complicated at all to you. a commander in chief in the final days of his term as president using power unique to him to the presidency to help someone in the family, close to him, circumvent legalish for a pardon and something having to do with taxes and falsifying certain documents and when the u.s. attorney prosecuted the case in question said this of it. it was one of the most loathesome and disgusting crimes

he had ever taken to court. well, that prosecutor is chris christie. he was talking about his 2005 case against charles kushner who is the father of donald trump's son-in-law jared kushner. come on, guys. who did you think i was talking about? i'm just kidding. there are two primary differences, though, between donald trump's pardon of charles kushner and what happened last night. president joe biden's pardon of his son hunter biden. the first. how much anger that trump and his allies are about one or the other. hunter biden will not at any point or certainly not in the next 12 months, wake up and be serving as america's ambassador to france. charles kushner, in all likelihood, will do just that. joining our conversation is harry lipman.

claire is also here. harry lipman, your thoughts. >> is there a third big difference. no one will say that jared kushner was unfairly treated. christie said it was so disgusting he actually set up a sexual liaison to get at a political opponent. he got what the system generally provides. nobody that i've heard -- there is a lot of consternation of this pardon of hunter and reason to this i it's a political inconvenience for the democrats but nobody tied to me as a former prosecutor is the salient fact which is he was singled out for very much harsher treatment for no good reason or you could say for the reason of his last name. that is what pardons are about. just a quick comparison to what obama did at the end of his term. there were a number of people who had committed drug crimes. they really had. but they had been subjected to much harsher treatment for reasons that didn't make sense to us as a society.

the difference between crack cocaine and the fact he gave them executive clemency. same reasons i think apply to hunter, notwithstanding a lot of valid teeth mashing about what this will mean and the sort of sound bited battles to come wi the trump folks. >> let's receive the sound bite battles to come with the trump folks for another broadcast. i want to show you what chris christie had to say. i think you misspoke. it was charles kushner who did this and is not jared kushner. >> pardon me. >> jared up $2 billion from the saudi fame and not to be confused with his father charles kushner with this. claire, watch. >> it had to be prosecuted. if a guy hires a prostitute to seduce his brother-in-law and videotapes it and sends the

videotape to his sister to attempt her to attempt to testify before a grand jury, do i need any more justification than that? it's one of the most loathes of disgusting crimes that i prosecuted when i was u.s. attorney. >> again, not to follow shiny objects here as my north star for the next several years, charles kushner was tapped to be the u.s. ambassador to france and that is how fellow republican chris christie describes his conduct as, quote, the most loathesome disgusting crime i prosecuted when i was u.s. attorney. just wow. >> yeah. i got to be honest with you. can i tell you a candid moment in my life when i saw this pardon last night? >> pleat. >> i kind of wished i wasn't going to be on tv today. although if i was going to be on tv, i'm sure glad i'm on tv with you. here is the thing. do i understand joe biden's

pardon? yes. completely. i get it. it's completely understandable. but the both sides folks out there have just gotten some powerful ammunition and for that reason, i hate it. i don't hate that he did it. i get it. i understand it and i don't blame him. he is family man and loves his family desperately and he has the sense of family than almost anything in the world but he said he wouldn't do it, repeatedly, he said he wouldn't do it. so we have got joe biden, this wonderful man of integrity and character who has done a really good job as president, has lived his life the way i think we all would want our children to live their lives with honor and respecting the truth. for him to said repeatedly he would not do this and then do it, it allows the side of the mountain of lies and scandal!

the infinite amount of horrible corruption and lack of integrity that just peppers the world of trump. it somehow allows them to say, well, see? is just the same. joe biden is no different. yes, joe biden is different than donald trump. he is not the same. i wish pardon would have said all along i will pardon my son because this is a political persecution. the fact he said he wouldn't and he did now, i just hate it. >> i want to deal with this, what you describe as both sides and, harry, you describe as teeth smashing and we will deal with those things on the other side of a break. with those things on the other side of a break.

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qunol. the brand i trust. hunter biden was shown to have been in bed with criminals from the ukraine and china to lobby the united states government through the laundry of money that hunter biden and define archer received' leveraging his relationship with his dad president biden. he didn't register. this doj should charge him. they won't. >> harry, i understand the point you're both making. i'm not spending as much time on twitter, but i know it's out there. i guess what i would push back to both of you is this. donald trump, with the appointments of kash patel, matt

gaetz, and pam bondi, has said that the rule of law will go in the wood chipper where it belongs. what is -- what will it take for whatever the other side is, the rule of law side, the democracy coalition, the democratic party, the -- i mean, there needs to be an adjustment and a calibration that they are fighting the last war. i mean, i hear what claire is saying, that we -- i guess -- he went back on his word and that is not a good thing. he said he would let the system of justice run its course. he seems to have done just that. it is also true and "the new york times" has reported extensively there was a deal when house republicans went on fox news and the merrick garland department caved and threw the book to hunter biden. i won what the pro democracy and rule of law side will stop

looking backward and understand the world we live in. we live in a world where the rule of law means nothing to donald trump. he ran on retribution and then he put the retribution guy atop the fbi and gaetz was the person who sent to run the department of justice, a guy who was investigated under bill barr and merrick garland for sex trafficking. >> kash patel is a real bar over my dead body. look what it takes is what it always will take which is the facts and the law. now we are in this lamentable situation where you have eight seconds to try to explain that and people just mow you down and there is what aboutism and it's also true, as claire says, that it's unfortunate that biden said repeatedly he wouldn't do it. the stock and trade and the currency for the doj is what are

the facts and what are the law and it just so happens that for biden, the facts and the law show that he was given excessively harsh treatment and for trump, the very opposite. now that is an explanation that is just going to face increasing hostility over the next several years. i don't know what to do, other than make it cooley, calmly, and hope that the truth prevails over time. but it's just a matter of what is actual, what are the facts, and what are the law. that is what the doj has to keep its stock door by. >> claire, because i know you didn't want to have this conversation and you came on with me any way. i'm going to give you the last word. i have to sneak in quick break first. we will be right back. sneak in k first. we will be right back. checkout champion of the world. businesses that want to win, win with shopify.

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so, claire, i want to give you the last minute. john cornyn said about this the hunter biden pardon. it's a terrible example because without any accountable for people breaking the law there is no deterrent effect or accountability that teaches our young people and others that yes, yes, you need to follow the law and, yes, there are consequences if you don't. for john cornyn, that means becoming president of the united states again after being a convicted felon. i just wonder your thoughts on how to break through the tragic

hypocrisy that has encapsulated the ride. >> john cornyn and all of the republicans should shut up about this because they are behind the guy who treated the law like a joke. you know, that is disgusting to me. and hunter biden has suffered enough and i understand why joe biden did it. it doesn't mean it's still not painful to see a man with so much character and integrity have to go back on something that he said clearly to the american people that he would not do. but, no question, they would try to keep coming after hunter biden, so i'm happy that hunter biden has suffered the consequences for terrible decision making in the throes of an obvious all consuming addiction and, you know, he made terrible mistakes and he has paid a price for them. i'm glad he won't pay any

further price. but the point is that joe biden said he wouldn't do it and he did. i still hate that. >> you guys are national treasures for having these really painful complicated conversations with us and on tv. my thanks to claire and harry. thank you both. ahead for us, the top of a new hour will unpack how a children's book author became donald trump's pick to head the fbi and carry out trump's campaign retribution. that is next. campaign retribution that is next life's good. when you have a plan. ♪♪ hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat when yotreat? a plan. de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan

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donald trump told the american public during the campaign that he was going to turn the department of justice into a political operation, an arm of the white house, to destroy his political opponents, riecht. he said that the greatest threat to america is the enemy within and who he said was the enemy within was us, was journalists, were his political opponents. kash patel's only qualification is because he agrees with the donald trump that the department

of justice should serve to punish, lock up and intimidate donald trump's political opponents. hi again, everyone. it is now 5:00 in new york. in order to make good on that campaign promise of retribution, trump is making sure he will have the right people in place in his cabinet as well as across the rest of the federal government, people who will carry out what is senator is talking about there, that quest for retribution and revenge. so even though trump's own handpicked joyce to lead the federal bureau of investigations, christopher wray, he is going to replace him for someone else, trump's goal of weaponizing the department of justice for his own purposes. enter a man name kash patel. listen to how closely aligned he is with trump. >> as we clean up our capitol we

will clean up and clean out our deep state. >> i would shut down the fbi hoover building on day one and reopening the next day as a museum of the deep state. >> those j6 warriors, they were warriors, but more than anything else victims of what happened. >> it is a political narrative. it is tough to defeat. storming of this, hijacking that, insurrection, but when you look at the people involved their lives have been destroyed by the justice department. >> to get me somebody would have to shoot through the fake news, and i don't mind that so much. >> we will go out and find the conspirators not just in government but in the media. yes, we will come after the people in the media who lied about american citizens, who helped joe biden rig presidential elections. we will come after you, whether it is criminally or civilly, we will figure it out. but, yeah, we're putting you all on notice. >> so that guy, kash patel, here is his back story.

he was a former congressional aide for devin nunes. remember him? he was the primary author of the nunes memo which accused the fbi and the department of justice officials of bias in the russian investigation, something that was never found in multiple audits. he is the author of a children's book, my favorite thing about him. the book is called "the plot against the king." it tells the story of kash wizard who works to save king donald from the evil doing of hillary queenpin and a shifty night. patel is the person donald trump wanted to install as the cia deputy director in the waning days of his last administration, although cia director gina haspel threatened to quit if he did that. as "axios" reports, trump advisers are running out of

words to describe what's coming in january. they say he feels empowered and emboldened, vindicated and validated and eager to stretch the boundaries of power. he is egged on by musk and others, and picking trusted brawlers for the toughest, most controversial task. david fromm for "the atlantic" exposes the constitutional crisis that trump will invoke. fbi directors wield awesome pours over the liberties of americans. the unwritten rule, governing their appointment. even first-term trump dared not openly defy it, but second-term trump is opening with a bid to junk it all together. much of the reporting on trump's announcement reveals a society already bending to trump's will, something that was regarded as outrageously unacceptable in 2017, treating an fbi director as just another trump aide has

been semi normalized even before president-elect trump takes office. trump's choice to lead the fbi is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former assistant director of counterintelligence at fbi, msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here. joining us, msnbc political analyst ashley parker is here. former at the brennan center, james sample is here. former acting assistant general for national security at the justice department, msnbc legal analyst mary mccord is here. mary, i want to start with you because kash patel's rise in trump world is really on the back of trump's fear and anger about his campaign being scrutinized initially for either wittingly or unwittingly

being -- working in concert with the russians, collusion not an actual crime he was investigated for but whether his campaign and russia having a shared mission of his election 2016 was a national security risk and whether crimes were committed. that was sort of the origin story of trump's retribution, which would shape his entire presidency, his four years in exile and his entire campaign for reelection. it seems like a price has been paid by the men and women of the fbi and the department of justice that hasn't been paid as of yet by anyone else, for eight years of being smeared as part of a deep state. what is morale like inside the department eight years in? >> well i think, you know, with trump's reelection and in particular with some of the early announcements about appointments, first matt gaetz which, you know, has been pulled back, of course, in favor of pam bondi, now this announcement about kash patel, people are

very worried. they're very concerned. there are some that weathered trump 1.0 and they're seeing this looking like it is going to be very different because there's not even an effort to sort of install people in positions at the head of the department of justice, at the head of the fbi as the director of national intelligence, right, and other high-level positions in our intelligence community, there doesn't seem to be an effort to put serious people with the right experience in those positions. instead, in those places where i think are the three areas where i think trump felt most betrayed during his first administration, he has -- is installing the loyalists. i think that people within the department, and i'm certainly hearing from people within the department and the fbi, are worried they are going to be asked to be part of this retribution campaign, and that's very worrisome. it is one thing to make it through trump 1.0, but to have to do four more years and potentially be involved in more

nefarious things and potentially having to really push back on those things and maybe be fired, i mean that's just a lot to ask of career public servants who have worked under republicans, they've worked under democrats, they've worked under trump. you know, that's a lot to ask to go through that. i do think there will be push back. i do think, you know, a core group, and hopefully most will stay and try to push back against the worst excesses. again, to do an investigation you need some basis to investigate, and i think the tell is what kash said in the clip, which is criminally or civilly, we don't know yet, we will figure that out. that's just not how it works, right? whether you are talking about a criminal investigation and probable cause required for an indictment, proof beyond a reasonable doubt required to actually bring charges, or whether you are talking about a civil matter where you need to have a cause of action, you need to have a statutory or constitutional basis to bring a lawsuit, those are

constitutional requirements. his cavalier attitude towards those is, doesn't matter, we're going after you, we will figure out what technique we're going to use. that's what makes people within the department and the fbi worried about what they may be asked to do. >> so when you were leading the national security division, how often did you meet with the fbi director? >> oh, almost every day, but certainly we had three early morning briefings a week over at the fbi, and then i would often seem him as well over at the white house for other meetings of the national security staff, you know, at the level below the president and the meetings the president himself convened. >> and that was comey and then wray, right, were the two? >> well, i left before wray was actually confirmed. i stayed past comey being fired, but then there was a series of actings as you may recall, andrew mccabe. >> mccabe, yeah. >> before chris wray was, you know, nominated and confirmed. the interesting thing is, so here we are talking about, you

know, fbi directors are appointed for ten-year terms. it is a post-watergate reform which was very purposeful to make sure they extend through multiple presidencies, yet mr. trump his first term fired james comey and has already announced he is going to fire his own appointee, christopher wray. the first term, you may recall, it was widely i think believed that the reason for firing james comey was because of the russia investigation, the investigation you mentioned was the initial cause of all of the grievances that kash patel i think has now latched on as his grievances, too. but then there was an effort to sort of paper over that with a memo that the deputy attorney general wrote actually talking about when james comey came out during the campaign in the summer and made public statements about why hilary clinton was not -- you know, he was not recommending charges for hilary clinton. this was him overstepping what the fbi director should do.

that is a department of justice decision about prosecution, and so it was papered over as the cause for his firing, was about what he had done during the campaign. and the reason i raise that, because even at that time, even donald trump or his advisers recognized there should be some cause before you fire the fbi director. i don't really see that in what is being discussed by donald trump now. i mean his cause would be he's been the victim of witch hunts for -- and another four years after the first four years, so eight years, but that's -- you know, there's no evidence of that. so we've really -- in fact, james and i were talking in the green room. we have moved the window dramatically here. >> we burned it down. it is not a window anymore, it is sort of a gaping hole where the windows used to be. i asked mary how often she met with the fbi director because i think the political prosecutions will be what they are, right? elections have consequences. donald trump won and this is what he wanted done last time.

if you read the book by berman, he sought to do it in the first presidency. he rejected a few cases. it was fielded and sent to another office and they happened. the juries didn't convict the people. john durham, a lengthier and absolute bomb of an investigation, went 0 and 2 at trial, but ensnared trump's perceived political enemies for years with the threat of criminal prosecution and otherwise. so that's the -- but i want to press you on what it looks like to have tulsi gabbard over at the cia and kash patel atop the fbi for counterintelligence and national security. what does that mean to you? >> you know, i keep hearing the word from the far right, disruptors. don't worry, we are just hiring disruptors to shake up the bureaucracy. i'm all for disrupting bureaucracy. no one is a fan of the morasse

of diss corruptors at the time. these are not disruptors. their jobs are to search and destroy and dismantle the institutions that embody the values that hold us together, the rule of law, the constitution, three equal branches of government. our nation's security, our community's security becomes less safe, not more safe, with people like this in these positions, people who are, yes, not qualified. of course, remarkably unqualified, but incompetence is the least of my concern right now. the concern is the blind allegiance to the man in the oval office. that will be the down riding if these people are allowed to get in position. they will take an oath. they will raise their right hand. they will say, i swear to protect, defend the constitution and the next day they'll violate

it. they've already told us, pam bondi, kash patel have already told us, i'm going to be violating the constitution. i will be pursuing political enemies. i will be going after the media. i will be going after people who have already been adjudicated, fired, andy mccabe, pete strzok. guess what? they got their pensions back. they were found to have been wrongly fired. john durham, agency you said, went through this with a fine-toothed comb. this so-called deep state all of this is premised on is absolutely a house of card. so the abuses, my overriding concern here is we are going to see horrible abuses that, by the way, we've seen before in history in our fbi. j. edgar hoover was found to have repeatedly, repeatedly unlawfully wire tapped, searched, planted evidence, planted microphones, bugged martin luther king, had a black

panthers' leader killed in chicago with a special unit of the chicago pd. that's what happens when you go after perceived enemies without the evidence. >> frank, again, to build on what already happened, it was revealed toward the end of the first term that "new york times" journalists and others were already wire tapped. adam schiff i believe was wire tapped by the last department of justice. what builds on that, if you will, this more willing accomplices for the weaponization of the fbi and doj? what should we not fail to imagine could happen? >> well, we don't have to get very creative. like i said, pull out the history books. start googling the church committee, which happened after hoover's passing, where they finally realized -- only through the media, by the way, only through the media -- was it discovered that all of these black bag jobs, the microphones, hoover's letter to martin luther king suggesting he kill himself, this all came out in the open in

the church committee in congress. and then attorney general guidelines were established, but you know what? if you say, well, the guidelines will govern, the guardrails are there, i say this. there's a lot that happened in the justice department and fbi after 9/11 that let the fbi to get more aggressive to protect this country. you can now do lots of interesting things under what is called a threat assessment or preliminary inquiry that really i applaud because we want to get that kind of aggressiveness and weed out threats. but you can easily abuse that. so start looking for people getting notices from carriers and internet providers, hey, just heads up, your data got pulled, you know. as you all know for maybe five years in the national security case. >> yeah. >> start looking for people saying, i'm being surveilled. we are going to see that happen. >> ashley, the only tension here -- again, he sought to do it with all of the folks that you and your colleagues and others covered as guardrails for

the first term, and he made more progress than anyone understood at the time. the only friction this time is that there are serious national security and counterintelligence threats that directly impact trump. the iranians are intent on killing him for the strike against soleimani, him and milley and everyone in the national security apparatus. china is a threat that donald trump has promised to deal with. even if you take russia aside, donald trump ran on law and order and crime, and as hypocritical as it is considering his conduct around january 6th, people around him believe crime will go down, not up. if you dismantle the fbi, crime doesn't go down, it goes up. if you incapacity the national security apparatus and the people in charge of protecting national security, trump directly endangers his own life and everybody involved in his last presidency. is that friction being aired to him in terms of not wanting to completely deprive the fbi of the things that it does that are

good for trump's brand? >> well, some of that friction or some of that concern and blowback are career officials, national security officials, we haven't talked about her a lot, but who are deeply, deeply worried about what the tulsi gabbard appointment would mean, for the national security and intelligence community. so you are hearing that in those upper levels, but the real -- there's sort of two places where trump himself would get that pushback. first is in his inner circle where he's not getting a ton of that. he's getting some of people explaining to him, you know, certain people might be a tough confirmation battle or this came out about this person or that, but there's not real pushback in the inner circle. even with matt gaetz there was a real recognition that it was not a savvy pick, and it was going to be an uphill climb for them but it was not getting communicated to the president-elect in a way of saying, you know, you have to pull him. so that's one friction point.

the second friction point that would affect trump himself, of course, are the senators who are the ones responsible for confirming these picks. there's a tricky dynamic there where these republican senators have very little to gain by coming out in advance and criticizing a pick of trumps and saying they don't support it because that just creates backlash from the man who is going to be president, who has made clear he believes he has a mandate and is bent on retaliation and retribution. and it creates blowback from his base. so some of these members to watch are the republicans, not the ones who are publicly supporting these picks but the ones who are being quiet or the ones who are equivocating. those would be the ones who, as they did with matt gaetz, would make clear to trump, although again i'm not -- not that this would necessarily happen and there's a handful of picks here, but those would be the ones who

could relay private concerns to the president-elect, to the sort you were just speaking of. >> everyone sticks around. there's much more to get to, with this choice of kash patel to lead the fbi says about the second-term agenda on trump's part. later on, new questions about another one of donald trump's questionable cabinet picks. there's brand-new reporting on how robert f. kennedy jr. worked to weaken health all over the world. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. e.

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i was appalled, like you, at

the violence and destruction that we saw that day. i was appalled that you, our country's elected leaders, were victimized right here in these very halls. that attack, that siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple, and it is behavior that we, the fbi, view as domestic terrorism. it has got no place in our democracy, and tolerating it would make a mockery of our nation's rule of law. that is not a deep state actor. it is not shifty schiff or, what is the storybook? hilary clinton, whatever kash patel calls her in his book. that is someone who defended chris christie criminally when he was in private practice. this is someone who has been associated with republican administrations his whole career, and is donald trump's handpicked fbi director after he ousted jim comey for, as mary

was suggesting, a variety of reasons, ultimately because he wouldn't, quote, see to it to let mike flynn go. where are we heading in terms of americans who get swatted or people who are targets of plots like governor whitmer was if kash patel become's the country's next fbi director? >> or if hypothetically you are an anchor on cable news who sometimes had occasion to criticize some of our leaders, which is the core of the first amendment. mary earlier was talking about the idea of civilly, criminally, whatever kash patel says as if there are no standards. the constitution is not a partisan document. the constitution is, if anything, a bulwark against partisanship. there's nothing more core to that than the first amendment. so if we are going to start going after the press, if that will be one of the uses of the fbi, if that's going to be the weaponization of the department of justice that has been talked about so much but is actually really a confession, a

projection, we are headed to a very dangerous place. i mean the data point of undoing the freedom of the press has to be one of the clear road mile markers on the road to democracy's demise. i mean that is about as fundamental as you can get, and we were talking about the window and the shifting or it is completely gone, think about just eight years ago. hilary clinton -- i mean bill clinton on the tarmac with lore loretta lynch was a massive inappropriateness. today in this world with this cast of characters, that will be everyday between the white house and the department of justice and law enforcement. >> how do you think we got here? >> i think we got here by the american people, or 49% of them, embracing a campaign for whatever reasons, and the autopsy on that will be done for generations, but i'm not really

sure that people know what it is that they really asked for when they were in that 49%. >> i read a lot of things, but this is something he ran on. let me show you donald trump talking about retribution. >> i was going to fire comey, knowing there was no good time to do it. in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made-up story, it is an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election that they should have won. >> that was him talking about what we talked about earlier in the hour, about firing comey. here he is talking about revenge. >> well, revenge does take time, i will say that. >> it does. >> and sometimes revenge can be justified. the bigger problem are the people from within. we have some very bad people. we have some sick people, radical left lunatics. >> for those who have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. i am your retribution.

not going to let this happen. not going to let it happen. i will totally obliterate the deep state. >> so in talk like that and has picked kash patel to take us right to the line of what you are describing, right? trump has a real awareness of the laws and how far up to them he can go. i mean do you -- do you think that there's -- are weat a point of no return? >> i certainly hope we're not, but i certainly think it is going to take the courage of a lot of people. you are talking about the staffers, the career staffers in these agencies, because this is -- they have the full complement at this point. it is not just the white house. it is not just these nominees. it is also congress, narrow, yes, but congress, and it is also the supreme court. i mean charlie sykes over the weekend was talking about some of these nominees are really a

kind of threat, a kind of brinksmanship with the sprrks.u court. are you going to step in and say this is what the law is or are we going to roll over and sort of pick and choose when it is okay to have a constitutional order and when we're the city on a hill for the rest of the world and when we're not? >> i mean, mary, this seems to be the piece that at this hour, as we sit here today, we don't know. i mean donald trump certainly ran on retribution. people knew they were voting for this, and that is unpleasant i think to say, but we should just start eyes wide open, understanding what he is accurate to say he has a mandate to do, and whatever he says, obliterating the deep state is something he has talked about for eight years. what does that mean though in terms of being able to function and in his own view be -- i mean we know how vein he is in terms of his own press.

where inside the department and inside the fbi is that tension in your view? >> well, two things. one, in terms of what the american people voted for, you know, i don't really know if they all appreciated that part of his campaign speech. you know, you hear that when he's at his rallies or when he's being interviewed by some extremist podcaster, but all of the polling i have seen about why people voted for trump are all about the price of eggs. i never heard so much about the price of eggs in my life. >> which, by the way, on the price of eggs, the tariff, 70% of voters understand the tariff makes eggs more expensive. i'm not sure i buy the price of eggs myself, but we'll talk about eggs next time. >> yes. so in terms of being the retribution and going after the deep state, let's think about it for a while, and you alluded to it at the top of the hour, is if you divert the resources of the department of justice and the fbi into investigating this very lengthy list. kash patel has a list in his book.

other people have created lists of enemies. who is actually going to be engaged in the work of the fbi? who is going to be investigating international narcotics trafficking, international human trafficking? who is going to be investigating other white collar crime that does not involve donald trump? who is going to be investigating terrorism cases, international terrorism cases, international espionage cases, cases involving china and iran and russia? it takes massive amounts of resources to launch investigations, particularly on the scale he is talking about and particularly when there's actually no there there. >> right. >> so you are talking about, you know, casting about for anything. and so, you know, this idea of the law and order, right, that just falls apart. >> ashley parker, real quickly, does he have backups? i mean it is like ric grenell sitting around waiting to see if

tulsi gabbard goes up in flames and tom cotton hanging out saying, i'll do it if hegseth has one more alleged sexual assault against him and the press says too bad? are there people sitting around saying, if these don't work out maybe i will get it? >> well, there's certainly people who would love those postings. the one case study we have obviously is matt gaetz, and what's interesting about that is reporting on who the attorney general would be. there were lots of names. they were up, they were down, people were knifing them, there were different camps, there were different factions. when gaetz withdrew and within hours trump nominated pam bondi, she was not one of the names anyone had really heard was on traditional vetting list or was in the mix. so, yes, there are people who would love it, and then there's potentially the people the president-elect would pick, and they're not necessarily always part of that scene and venn diagram. >> i can't believe we're doing this again. quickly, ashley parker, james hamill, mary mccord, so great to hear from all of you.

thank you for starting us off. when we come back, mounting questions about another trump pick, his guy he wants to run the department of health and human services. the jokes write themselves, but there's brand-new investigative reporting about how rfk jr. has weakened global health standard and endangered children all around the world, and what it would mean here and around the world if he were to be confirmed. we will bring you the reporting next. a little ♪] [♪ take a little ♪] giving without expecting something in return. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪]

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i think if rfk followed through on his intentions, and i believe he will and i believe he can, it will cost lives in this country. you will see -- you will see measles, mps and rubella vaccines go down. for every 1,000 cases of measles that occur in children there will be one death. >> there was a time where predicting dead american children would be stop-the-presses, big, huge font headlines and donald trump ended all of that. to show you where we're focusing our attention, the pendulum is swinging within trump's own universe. that was donald trump's former fda commissioner, scott gottlieb, warning if donald trump's pick to head hhs, robert f. kennedy jr. is concerned, it

could kill kids from measles and mumps, diseases thankfully largely eradicated. mr. gottlieb is referring to kennedy's long history of spreading vaccine lies, disinformation and misinformation, including kennedy's role in heading up one of the largest anti-vax organizations, the children's health defense, specifically targeted at undermining vaccines and trust in vaccines for kids. in case you thing gottlieb has joined those critical of trichl, gottlieb praised marty mccarey as fda commissioner. kennedy has claimed as hhs secretary he would not get rid of vaccines and his fringe theories not just endangered the health of americans.

"the new york times" is out with shocking report on his global reach. quote, kennedy has spent years working abroad to undermine policies that have been pillars of global health policy for centuries, records show. he and his organization and officials interfered with vaccination efforts, undermined sex education campaigns meant to stem the spread of aids in africa. kennedy has also partnered with, financed or promoted fringe figures who claim that 5g cellphone towers cause cancer, that homosexually and contraception education are part of a global conspiracy to reduce african fertility and that the world health organization is trying to steal country's sovereigty. joining us, dr. leonard and founding director of the natural center for disaster preparedness

at columbia university, and distinguished scholar, dr. eddie glaude. doctor, your worries? >> it seems a long time ago rfk jr. was considered an odd ball with a tremendous ability to exploit his revered family name and we were laughing about the brain worm and decapitating of whales and the dead bear cub. even then he was highly influential, probably the most influential anti-vaxxer, anti-science person in the world. he went from being a joke to being a global threat if he actually becomes the head of the health and human services, hhs, which has an 80,000 person, $1.8 trillion work of art, revered internationally as the most advanced and effective health organization in the world.

and besides putting people's health at risk, he is putting our public health agenda at risk. he is putting america's reputation at risk. it is an across-the-board, really disaster. i'm trying not to overstate it, nicolle, but i can't possibly say enough about how dangerous this appointment is in every aspect of life that affects our health and well-being. it is frightening. >> i mean it feels like a bright spot in terms of non-partisan health work over the last 10, 15 years has been global children's health, right? either through the clinton global initiative or george w. bush's work, petfar and sustained by three presidents i guess of three political parties. rfk is a threat to all of that progress. he is a threat to global and in many instances impoverished

populations, children. >> absolutely. i was thinking about children in the delta of mississippi, children in appalachia and the rio grande, in urban centers where resources are aplenty. i think gottlieb is right, we will see more dead folk, dead babies. you know what is interesting too, nicolle? you spent a lot of time during covid, you spent a lot of time talking about the dead, presenting to the country the biographies of folk who lived full lives, and here we are in a moment where the president-elect of the united states has chosen someone who would have made that environment even worse. it gives you a sense of the state of affairs, if that makes any sense to you. >> yeah. and i guess my question coming back to you is, you know, the lives well-lived was because the losses were so big and people

couldn't -- couldn't deal with the number, but you could feel a story and you could -- you could grieve for that family that lost somebody and pray that it wasn't yours. but the idea of putting, you know, all of the lines that i think people thought existed seem gone now and putting children in danger, i think perhaps naively it was something i thought we still valued. >> yeah, we thought -- think about it. we thought that was the case, but we see in school mass shootings that didn't change the needle or move the needle in any substantive way. and so here you have measles, mumps, you know, my mom used -- i have an old picture of me in our bunk bed with my mom using a home remedy because i had the mumps, but those are gone now. i mean i didn't have to worry about that with my son, but can you imagine? so here we are putting our children in harm's way, for what? you know, on the basis of conspiracies, on the basis of incompetencie, on the basis of

ideological consistency or whatever it is, but we will see babies in coffins. the question is will we take responsibility for it. i don't know. >> all right. no one is going anywhere. we will continue this conversation after a very short break. stay with us. stay with us

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out there after he won for a reason, i think to let them hang out and see who makes it and who doesn't. almost like the reality show "survivor." but rfk has already got blood on his hands. "new york times" headline. mr. kennedy visited the pacific island of samoa in june 2019 in the aftermath of a public health tragedy. during routine measles immunizations a yearly earlier nurses mistakenly missed the vaccine with a muscle relaxer leading to the death of two infants. kennedy arrived in samoa on the invitation of a local anti-vax activist. he told them that it might be of a lower quality than those shipped to developed countries. a measles outbreak began a few months after his visit. 83 people died, most of them children, a staggering loss in a nation of about 200,000 people. >> this is amazing and it was a medical error that caused the

two kids to die the year before kennedy introduced the idea of not doing mandatory vaccines, which resulted in 83 dead people, most of which were children. you know, most people don't get to -- i don't know how to put this -- kill people before they get into a position of power. kennedy comes to the table with that credential, and really much more extremism than we could possibly tolerate. you know, listen, everybody knows where i stand politically, people that know me, but he won the election, trump. he gets to pick people. you know, no democrat would have picked rubio for secretary of state, but he's a guy, he's experienced, he will do his job. picking mehmet oz, picking rfk jr. and some of these other people is endangering americans immediately, endangering global public health, and causes how america is perceived

internationally in a way that we've never been perceived that way before. look, we're in for a very bad time. my hope is that these are just who he is throwing out there, you know, check these out, you know, we'll get rid of them but then i have somebody else behind like bondi. but the fact of the matter is we're in for a rough period of time, and we cannot, and hopefully u.s. senators, all of them, both sides of the aisle, will have the wherewithal and the decency and the sense of moral privilege to go ahead and reject kennedy. rfk jr. >> i said hope is the gateway to despair and i'm going to eat my own words, because i hope, i hope that that holds. i hope that these picks are doing what trump wanted them to do, the shining objects that would distract all of us, force this kind of reporting that would be impossible to look away from, and usher in something trumpian but not dangerous.

it is important to mark how far the line moved and how quickly, three weeks ago. >> absolutely. you know, i've gotten in a lot of trouble over 2016, and the fact that i didn't vote for hilary clinton and i live with that choice every single day because i said to myself, she would at least -- she would have at least told us it was airborne. maybe my friends would be here today, right? and so -- >> i never heard you talk about this. have you ever talked about this? >> no,ive i never talked about on air. at least she would have told us it was airborne. now we will have somebody over hhs who is a vax denier, he will put children in jeopardy, children from my region, a state like mississippi that is poor as it can be. we've had a wonderful vaccination program for folks like this. we used to look at our booster shots on our arm, how big is yours, how big is mine, right? we need a revolution of value in this country. we need a revolution of what

actually matters to us in this country, and it seems to me baseline that our babies should matter. >> oh, my god. this is the conversation we're going to have to have. we're going to take a break. both of you stick around. we will be right back. stick arod we will be right back. a chewy order is en route for monkey, who loves to climb. so mom uses chewy to save 60% and get exclusive deals through cyber monday on toys that keep monkey good and grounded. for low prices... for holidays with pets, there's chewy.

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moment from been the most reliable. not perfect, the most reliable. the cdc, our public health agencies, legitimate physicians. it is not the moment in time to replace those information sources with misinformation that's on the web, for example, or misinformation that comes from the mouth of what will be our senior public health official. really, nicolle, i just say again that i hope every u.s. senator will take a cold, hard look at the credentials, the morality, the truthfulness of these candidates and make sure they are voting the right way to affirm or deny the ability of somebody like rfk jr. to take over the largest health care agencies in the world. >> all right. we're going to continue this conversation you just started. all right, the two of you, dr. redlener, eddie glaude, thank you. another break for us. we will be right back.

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