rival, what a statement that would be. >> like me stealing from you. >> you are going to take over this show soon enough. mike barnicle, thank you, and hopefully we will see a juan soto before too long. thanks to all of you for getting up way too early with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. ♪♪ good morning. and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, december 4th. we have a lot to get to this morning, including the concerns from republican senators about the growing allegations against pete hegseth, donald trump's pick to serve as defense secretary. we will have that as well as new reporting on who trump may be considering as a replacement should he abandon the choice of hegseth. plus, nearly a month after the election we finally have a clear look at the balance of power in the house. we're going to dig into the razor-thin majority for republicans during the first 100 days of trump's new term.

also ahead, a live report from south korea where protesters are out in the streets following the president's shocking and short-lived martial law declaration there yesterday. along with joe, willie and me we have the host of "way too early" jonathan lemire, former supreme allied commander of nato, four star navy admiral james stavridis, chief international analyst for nbc news. president emeritus of the council on foreign relations richard haass, author of the weekly newsletter "home and away" available on substack. and u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay is with us. great to have you all on board. >> you know, willie, this is just one of those mornings where so much news is flooding the zone. there are people that went to sleep last night and woke up this morning finding out, first of all that is correct donald trump is talking to governor ron desantis to replace pete hegseth. i heard yesterday afternoon that

he was already talking to people and he was moving in that direction. even before lindsey graham broke against hegseth saying it was deeply troubling. we also of course had the last house race called by the associated press, which means that when donald trump becomes president, he's going to have a one-vote majority, republicans are, in the house of representatives. so i keep talking about a unity government. i say that because they are not going to get -- get much done at all unless they figure out how to get democrats and republicans working together there. and then finally what happened in south korea yesterday, we talked about the declaration of martial law and a lot of things happening very quickly. man, did that backfire and blow up in the face of the president. just an extraordinary outpouring of protests. people remembering what it was like to be under martial law in

the 1980s. what it was like to be under military rule in the 1980s. extraordinary scenes in south korea showing that the flame of democracy cannot be put out once people have tasted that freedom. >> yeah, these are live pictures just after 8:00 at night in seoul of protesters coming out. president yoon there putting in martial law and then quickly in the face of this resistance pulling it back with pro-democratic marchers and protesters out in the streets this morning. also, joe, on this busy morning you didn't mention alabama at this moment in the college football playoff, right where they should be. >> yes. >> right where they should be. >> i heard it. >> and -- and a decision, we're told, imminent from juan soto with four and a half teams left according to the new york post. mets, yankees, red sox, blue jays and maybe the half is the dodgers, though unlikely given

their outlays to other players. a very, very busy morning. >> well, and on one of those things you brought up -- >> i was peacefully doing my research. >> she heard screams from the living room and it was when alabama was placed above miami. of course, there will be people who will whine. >> so loud. >> miami is 0-2 against top 25 ranked teams, alabama 3-1. so, yeah, it's something. we are going to have pablo come on to talk about that in a little bit. yeah, absolutely fascinating. alabama of course three losses but you look at miami they have had a horrible schedule all season, they played two ranked teams, they lost, they lost their last two out of their three games. it makes a lot of sense. but, man, this is absolutely bizarre. we are also going to be talking with pablo about a "wall street journal" story that talks about one of the richest men in the world who went to illinois,

helping michigan get the top recruit because his -- i want to get this right, i'm not sure if it's his girlfriend for his wife is a um grad. and so they just -- they just wrote the check and welcome to college football 2025. there we go, the billionaire, his mystery wife and college football's wildest recruiting saga. we will also have pablo talking about that. >> interesting. >> a lot of huge news. even i will say it's time to move on from sports. >> amid the growing controversy over pete hegseth's nomination as defense secretary the "wall street journal" and bulwark are reporting that president-elect trump is weighing whether to replace him with florida governor ron desantis. nbc news has not confirmed the reporting but this comes amid increasing concerns from some republican lawmakers over the mounting allegations concerning

hegseth's personal life. people close to the president-elect's team tell the general trump allies believe hegseth's nomination may not survive further scrutiny. as the paper notes, picking desantis would amount to a stunning turn for trump, but in desantis trump has a well-known conservative with both military and executive experience, who shares trump's and hegseth's view on eliminating the so-called woke policies from the armed forces. joining us now the reporter who broke the story from the bulwark, mark caputo. what more can you tell us? is this imminent? are there any other catches that could hold this up? >> well, i was told it was a really serious conversation they've been having, they've been having it for a while. it's not donald trump's people talking to ron desantis' people, it's donald trump talking to ron desantis about it. i have to say having covered both of these guys and having covered the republican primary

it's hard to see this happening, but i've been assured and was reporting it out yesterday that, no, no, this could really happen. it's not just that pete hegseth has these problems, it's that donald trump is serious not just about getting the woke out of the military, is that he believes that there's a certain amount of bloat and understandably so and perhaps a certain amount of fat that needs to be cut from the pentagon budget and you're going to need someone who is able to do that and withstand the political pressure. and there's one thing whether you dislike ron desantis or you like ron desantis that most people agree on, is that desantis is very stubborn and when he sets his mind to doing something he does it and he doesn't care about who howls. so if -- and it's still and if, and perhaps a big if -- ron desantis is appointed to be the dod secretary, the defense secretary, yeah, he's going to pursue the social policies, but there is a strong possibility

i'm being told that he will actually try to really cut some of that pentagon budget, which has a lot of spending in it. >> jonathan lemire, you've reported on donald trump for a very long time and understand these stories started coming out about his -- about hegseth's drinking problems, and we've heard it over and over again. in fact, we had heard -- there is an nbc report talking about how numerous people inside of fox news say that he still has a drinking problem. he still shows up drunk. he still shows up smelling of alcohol. we had actually heard that from -- our team had heard that from a source inside of fox news a reliable source inside of fox news, last week. that, you know -- saying you don't have to talk about 2018. this is still happening.

and that was a real concern that people inside the trump transition had also been hearing. so i had heard last week and i know you had, too, from my sources inside the senate that the republicans were already going south on this guy. last week. then his mother's letter hit this weekend that actually lined up with what we've heard from so many of these accusations, about his behavior and his drunkenness when he was running the two vets organizations. now the fox news story has come out. but, again, the fox news story that nbc is reporting is no shock to the trump transition team. they were already hearing it from inside fox themselves. so given what donald trump has always said about alcohol, about his brother, about the lack of discipline, he even has written about it, you know, hard to see

how pete hegseth gets through this and heart to see, especially when lindsey graham is saying there are a lot of concerns. one senate insider laughingly told me lindsey is a lagging indicator. this was done some time ago. talk about it. >> a few things here. first that nbc news story that suggests that hegseth would show up on set at fox smelling of alcohol, one of the reporters behind that story joining us in a few minutes. you're right to underline donald trump's distaste for alcohol, he has said repeatedly he has never drank in his life. he blames it for the death of his brother, someone he cared about deeply. he also judges harshly people who he thinks drink too much. let's remember rudy giuliani lost a cabinet post after the 2016 election in part because trump saw him drinking too much. so that's -- these reports are not going to help hegseth's case. hegseth himself, yes, joe, i heard from republicans yesterday as well even as hegseth has been making the rounds on capitol

hill that his nomination is in deep danger. there could be up to six or more republican senators, you only need four, who are ready to sink his nomination, including lindsey graham who normally goes along with whatever trump wants. hegseth appearing on fox later today for an interview, which is a sense maybe a last ditch effort to save that nomination. but he's got an uphill climb. if he ends up being governor desantis this is a one-time rival of trump's but just like marco rubio a one-time florida politician, rival of trump, trump has improved relations with desantis at least somewhat and i'm already told this morning republicans say desantis would clear through the republican senate. he has relationships on the hill from his time on congress, he was already publicly vetted for his runs for governor as well as of course his ill-fated presidential bid and he does not appear to have the baggage that hegseth does. >> and opening another big position in the state of florida if that happens. the senate with marco rubio, the

governor office with potentially now ron desantis as well. let's get to that report from nbc. three current, seven former fox employees telling nbc news pete hegseth would drink in ways that concerned his colleagues. two said he smelled of alcohol before going on the air as a co-host of fox and friends weekend more than a dozen times. nbc news reports three current employees said his drinking remained a concern up until trump announced him as his choice to run the pentagon, at which point hegseth left fox. for the sake of national security i really hope he has stopped drinking one of the former fox employees said. he should not be secretary of defense, another former fox employee said. his drinking should be disqualifying, end quote. this follows a report from "the new yorker" earlier this week that detailed accusations of impropriety and drunkenness that led to his ouster from two veterans groups a decade ago.

these disgusting allegations are completely unfounded and false and anyone peddling these defamatory lies to score political cheap shots is sickening. as a decorated combat veteran pete has never done anything to jeopardize that and is treating his nomination as the most important deployment of his life. hegseth's lawyer referred nbc to the trump team's statement and fox news did not respond to requests for comment. joining us now nbc yus pentagon correspondent courtney kube one of the reporters who broke the allegations about those concerns over hegseth's drinking. courtney, you have ten, i believe, sources on this story. this is not just one person leaking something out to you. tell us more about what you found in your reporting. >> yeah, and i have to say we worked on this, our colleagues chloe mel lass and sara fitzpatrick and i worked on this for several weeks. we spoke with more people even than are reflect this had this story. these aren't people who are out to necessarily, you know,

criticize fox news. consistently we were talking to current and former fox news employees who were concerned about pete hegseth's qualifications for such an enormous job, leading the department of defense. as you mentioned, willie, ten current and former colleagues from fox news who told us about this pattern of behavior over the course of years where pete hegseth would repeatedly show up sometimes moments before the 6:00 a.m. show would start on the weekend morning and he would talk sometimes about being hung over, about how he had barely slept or not slept at all because he had been out all night. he had been out partying. oftentimes he would come in and they could still smell the alcohol from the might before so coming in still with some of the aftermath from his night before being out drinking. in addition to that we also spoke with colleagues who were at social events with him, fox news social events, where they would see him overindulging.

candidly it was behavior that is reminiscent of that new yorker article that you mentioned of him overindulging in alcohol at official events with colleagues and at times behaving in ways that was embarrassing or not necessarily befitting of the leader of an organization. you guys are all on shows, you know how this goes. when the host or the anchor of a show shows up only moments before a broadcast, before you go on the air, if it's a lot of stress on the staff, on the show, on the producers, and that was what we consistently heard here. was that this behavior really caused angst and concern. and, yes, while we are talking for the most part about a period of several years ago, before he moved to tennessee, we did also speak with colleagues who said this continued to be a concern, his drinking, up until he terminated his contract with fox news on november 12th when donald trump, president-elect trump, named him as his

secretary of defense. a consistent thing that we heard throughout the course of the several weeks that we reported out this story, willie, was the concerns about the -- his character here. and one thing i have really been struck by was when hegseth was first named several weeks ago, there was a lot of talk about the policies that he could come in and implement as the secretary of defense. we heard a lot about his feelings that women should no longer serve in combat positions, you know, what could happen potentially with transgender individuals who are serving in the military, serving openly right now. the conversation has really shifted over those weeks to concerns about his character. the drinking has been one, his treatment of women has been another, and as you mentioned, it has really been a nearly daily drip, drip, drip of additional allegations and accusations. that's why, as you were talking about there seem to be this increasing concern among republican senators who candidly would usually support

president-elect trump's nominees. >> all right. nbc's courtney kube, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> great appreciate it. let's bring in admiral stavridis. we always talk about how two things can be true at one time. let's walk through this for a second on a human level. everything that we've read about pete hegseth and his first tours in combat zones suggests that he did a great job, honorable, and in uniform was respected by those around him in his early tours. we also know, though, a lot of -- a lot of men and we will come back from war zones and perhaps they have ptsd. i'm not -- i'm not -- i'm not suggesting that's the case here. i don't know what the case is here, but it is very obvious by seeing the pattern of behavior since he returned from combat

that he obviously -- he needs -- he needs help. i mean, if you -- even just read what his mother wrote, and i know that now she's trying to be a good mom and trying to defend her son after that is out, but what she wrote lines up with what people said before, during, and now after. so this appears to be -- and i think the trump transition team believes this -- this appears to be a man who needs help and not the nuclear codes. >> yeah, i think we talked about that earlier in the week on exactly that point. i think there's three baskets of problems here. number one, which we've talked about quite a bit this morning, the kind of character issues. that email from his mother is heartbreaking to read. then there's the policy issues. i don't see how you become the

secretary of defense of an organization that's 20% women in virtually every combat role -- and, by the way, i've commanded thousands of women in combat since i was a commander in the navy, a commodore, an admiral at sea in afghanistan. women fight well in combat. i've seen it again and again. you can't go into the building, the pentagon, with that kind of a stance that women should be pulled out of the force. so there's a policy basket. and then third i think, and finally here, it's the size, the scope, the scale of running the pentagon. the place is three million people active and reserve, budget of 800, $900 billion. the people we need at that desk, i will give you one republican and one democrat, roberts gaetz headed the cia, was secretary of defense, i worked directly for.

leon panetta, democrat, chief of staff in the white house. these are the kind of serious people we need running the pentagon. i think hegseth's nomination is in big trouble. i will close with this, you talked about pete hegseth's combat record. i respect that. there are other options out there and if you look at ron desantis, he also served in combat, he was the navy jag advising navy s.e.a.l.s in the middle east. his combat record is just fine, but he's pretty clean on the other issues of character we talked about. >> so, richard, pete hegseth has said in a past in a book he wrote and multiple interviews this was not a one off, a mistake, that women should not serve in combat calling them, quote, a distraction. he was asked about that yesterday, do you think they should be in combat, talking about women? he said i think they're already in combat. maybe he doesn't want them to be but they're already there, what's he going to do about it.

we heard senator lindsey graham, probably as joe said a lagging indicator saying this is going to be very difficult for pete hegseth. i have a lot of questions for him about his behavior, about his past. why do you see this head snd. >> it's clear where it's heading and there is a press accident for this. george herbert walker bush the 41st president who was his first choice to be secretary of defense, john tower. he had problems i believe the phrase was with the beverage alcohol. dick cheney became secretary of defense. the idea that you would have this person that has these issues in such a critical role it's not going to happen. if it is around desantis or anybody, the idea that the biggest problem facing the american military is wokeness is preposterous, that's not on the top ten, not the top 50, not the top 100. we have real issues. it goes beyond the fact there may be bloat in the budget. we're facing challenges in three geographies, this is a time of great technological innovation,

you have china, russia, north korea, iran, in some ways aligning. yes, there's bloat in the pentagon budget, we're spending too much in some cases on the wrong systems, but this is a very powerful case that this needs to be a time of great innovation and actually expansion what have we spend on defense given what's going on in the world geopolitically and in the world of technology. >> you know, katty kay, yesterday when lindsey graham came out and talked about all the problems that he was having, you know, obviously there's the fact that he's just not qualified to run a bureaucracy that large. there also, of course, were the drinking problems, the character problems, his mother talking about his abuse of women, the allegations there. but this is what struck me about lindsey graham's statement and it was almost like he was channeling joni ernst and other women who are republicans who give a damn about the dod and

about women in the military. lindsey say this, senator graham said this, leadership comes at the top and i want to make sure that every young woman who joins the military feels respected. that's -- and, joni ernst also said we're going to have a really frank and thorough conversation. but, again, lindsey graham, a conservative from south carolina, saying we want to make sure every young woman entering the military feels respected, that really does sound like one of the final -- final straws there. >> i loved your description of lindsey graham as the lagging indicator. certainly not -- >> it wasn't mine. it wasn't mine. that was -- that was a source on the hill who said that. >> we take what we are given but it was a good one. i noticed that, too, when i

heard that. maybe this is lindsey graham pushing back against quite a lot of those stories we've seen in the press about the manisphere flexing their muscles and women feeling intimidated. marc, let me get you more on pete hegseth. i think what's fascinating about the pick of hegseth and matt gaetz is why did donald trump choose these people? i realize the fox thing, i realize the presentation, but there are plenty of people in maga world who are also qualified to run these luge big departments. so what was this? was this showing that he could? was this keeping the base happy? was this owning the libs? what was the point of these selections? >> two separate things, but overall understand this, donald trump is going to do what donald trump wants to do when donald trump wants to do it. and when he no longer wants to do it he doesn't do it. so that's the story with matt gaetz. donald trump really wanted a very loyal attorney general, someone who would go in there

and, to paraphrase someone who had paraphrased what matt gaetz told them, to go in there in the department of justice and start cutting effing heads, he used the full word. that's what donald trump wants, he wants someone to go in and clean house and get rid of what he believes are the politicized department of justice personnel and prosecutors. obviously that could be debated. the problem that trump faced is that he made this decision on the fly and then as they counted votes he realized he would have to spend a whole bunch of political capital on matt gaetz and it just wasn't worth it. similarly the pete hegseth decision was made on the fly. now, department of defense is not as important to donald trump as attorney general, but obviously it's a huge and crucially important agency. he always liked hegseth, wanted hegseth in his first administration to possibly head up veterans affairs and he thought this would be a good time to bring him back and put him in that position as a shock and awe type of candidate, along with gaetz and along with a few

of these other controversial nominees. i think, but i can't promise, that hegseth is probably going to go the way of matt gaetz, simply because i'm hearing the same pattern of conversation again, which is top people who are just saying, man, i don't know if the senate is going to do this. one thing that is different about donald trump now as opposed to in 2016 is that he has a much better idea of how the senate operates and he knows he needs to do his agenda in a very short period of time and he doesn't want to get caught down and bogged down in these messy, nasty confirmation fights and at a certain point it's not going to surprise me to see pete hegseth say i'm a distraction, the way matt gaetz did and then he exits stage right. albeit it's donald trump so he might just dig in and fight even harder. we just never know. >> all right. national political reporter for the bulwark marc caputo. thank you very much for your reporting this morning.

still ahead on "morning joe," we're going to get to the unrest in south korea this morning. here is a live look at protests taking place right now in seoul where demonstrators are calling for the president's resignation after he abruptly declared martial law, and then backtracked hours later. we're back in 90 seconds with the very latest. we're back in 90 seconds with the very latt.es growing your business is easy once you know the moves. with godaddy websites plus marketing, you can quickly create a website, and ai will customize it for you. get your business out there and get more customers in here.

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after he declared martial law there. president yoon suk-yeol abruptly imposed the emergency law yesterday, claiming the opposition was, quote, trying to overthrow the free democracy. yoon accused the democratic party of anti-state activities and simp sympathizing with nor korea. almost immediately after the president's declaration protests erupted in seoul and hundreds of troops stormed the parliament. the national assembly quickly voted to rescind the martial law, calling it invalid. the president then lifted the order, bending to political pressure. now south korean lawmakers have submitted articles of impeachment against the president and are calling for his resignation. the country's defense minister has already offered to step down. >> admiral stavridis, there is so much here to talk about. first, very chilling that an

ally of the united states, somebody has important to the united states would fall this way, but also, of course, very encouraging on how quickly the pro-democracy forces pushed right back, almost immediately. i'd love to have your take about this, and also explain to americans waking up this morning just how important south korea is. you know, coincidentally ron desantis came on this show and one of the things i was surprised about, this was during the campaign, was how much he dumbed down his presidential campaign because when he started talking about foreign policy, he could take you around the globe very quickly and effectively and one of the things he said was the alliance between south korea and japan was extraordinarily important for the united states in pushing back against china. so talk about that. talk about what you saw yesterday and what we should be

taking away from it in america. >> let's start with alliances in the pacific. you know, we don't have a nato in the pacific, obviously, but what we do have is a series of vital, bi-lateral, nation to nation alliances. you mentioned japan, we're going to talk about south korea, it's also australia, new zealand, thailand, the philippines. we have this network, this kind of glittering array of alliances in the pacific and each of them are critical. so that brings us to south korea. boy, when i saw that yesterday morning, a, i was shocked at the sudden move by president yoon and then as the day went on i was heartened by the response. i mean, this was not only protesters storming the parliament, it was lawmakers storming the parliament, from both sides, and they overtook those barricades and came in to

vote 100% against the coup. that's really what undid it at the end of the day. so you could say as you're showing those pictures unfortunately kind of feels like january 6, except on this case the people cracking in are the good guys and they came in and overturned this attempt. so final thought, military one. south korea is in a state of war with north korea, they are a treaty ally of ours, we have 20,000 u.s. troops full-time stationed there. we have thousands of troops also up in japan. the united states has a big stake in all of this. yesterday was a good day for democracy and a good day for our alliances. >> richard, i had the same thought as admiral stavridis watching that. i said look at the forces of democracy go. they literally rushed to the legislature to undo this and it was undone very quickly.

can you explain the context in which this happened for people to understand why this president would even call in the first place for martial law. >> i think it reflects two things, one is the president himself, president yoon, someone i know pretty well from a lot of meetings, he has a police background. very rigid. i think in some ways he snapped and that brings to the other side his wife was under all sorts of pressure for getting investigated for things. he couldn't get anything done. dozens of people were facing impeachment in his administration. couldn't get the budget through. i think he was frustrated at every turn. he then did this. clearly did not think it through. gets reversed very quickly. he gives way. i actually think as the chinese would say he's lost the mandate of heaven. i don't see him coming back from this. i think what will happen now, you will have formal impeachment, there is a whole political then legal procedure in south korea. i would be surprised if he can survive this politically. i would not be -- i would actually bet that he can't and we're probably facing new elections for president in south

korea. building on what the admiral was saying, this is not just a critical ally, south korea is in the top ten countries of just about everything in terms of the size of its economy, its involved in ukraine as an important provider of ammunition. issue after issue after issue. south korea is a major country and probably one of the big breakthroughs of the last few years was the reconciliation between south korea and japan. it's actually one of joe biden's biggest diplomatic successes. president yoon as well as former prime minister kishida deserve a lot of credit. you have real political uncertainty in korea as well as japan, new leadership there. you have to worry about where this is heading. >> south korea stepped up also in defense of ukraine, a vital contributor to that effort. it's one that president biden is really -- looks to as a bulwark to china's rising aggression. such a stunning 24 hours there in south korea.

talk to us about the ripple effects we're feeling globally in a place where there is just so many different hot spots. >> the biden administration has put an enormous amount of effort into shoring up those south asian and northeast asian alliances as a counter to china, to south korea, japan, down in the philippines as well and tony blinken has spent a lot of time traveling out there when of course the administration has been able to spare time from the middle east in order to try to get those alliances on board. now there are questions about what happens when a trump administration comes in, if he is to go ahead with regime of tariffs even against allies what impact does that have on a country like south korea, on japan, on the philippines, countries that the united states now needs as a counterpoint to china. one thing that is worth saying about south korea and perhaps there is a question here for other democracies as well, yes, south korea is a strong democracy and we saw the forces of democracy fight back very

fast and effectively in the last 24 hours, but it's also a country that has a lot of corruption at the highest levels. you have two former presidents who are in jail on corruption charges, the current president investigation, you've got a former president who took his life over corruption charges and you wonder how strong can democracy be when there is corruption at the very top. i think that's a lesson as well for other countries looking at south korea that you have to have transparency and rule of law and get rid of corruption in order for your democracy really to be one that is solid. >> so let's change topics, admiral stavridis and let's go from south korea to the middle east. obviously so much happening there. please, give us your insights and then we will ask richard for insights this morning. first of all, what's happening in syria and what that suggests about iran and russia's

weakening positions, and also of course the fragile ceasefire between israel and hezbollah. >> sure. let's start in syria. i think you've got it exactly right, as the dark forces here, if you will, who had been supporting bashar al assad the dictator and war criminal who has had his way in syria now for decades, his family, what you're seeing is russia weakened because of what's happening in ukraine, iran weakened because of a series of attacks against them by israel, hezbollah another supporter of the syrian regime. likewise quite weakened. as always in geopolitics nature abhors a vacuum as there's less going on that can stand in support of assad, these rebel forces are coming in. now, before we start cheering

too loudly, team rebel in syria has got an awful lot of al qaeda dna, some islamic state dna, terrorists. so this is not good guys and bad guys on the march here, but it does indicate that iran is losing its grip and what iran has desperately tried to build is a kind of a land bridge that stretches from tehran to the shores of the mediterranean. this takes a big chunk out of that and that's a good thing. final thought, let's turn to the ceasefire which feels like it's kind of crumbling between hezbollah and israel. this was never looking like it was going to be a sudden -- to solve all the problems and predictably you're seeing finger pointing going back and forth and that, of course, weakens the chance for any ceasefire down

south in gaza. woe to the hostages the bleak outlook in the middle east continues. >> i think i would agree. it shows the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy. there is no good guys there. this is basically a failed country now and, you know, in the middle east we have to worry both about strong states and weak states. you have strong states to some extent like iran but also weak ones like syria, like lebanon, which can't do what governments are meant to do. then we see terrorists and others exploiting them. ceasefire in the north, i agree, it's fraying. i don't think it necessarily collapses. there is a big gray area between, you know, something that works and something that fails. it's not a switch, it's a dial. what i would watch is two things, though, still -- yesterday donald trump was putting pressure on hamas to release the hostages so i think the administration is still pushing very hard for a ceasefire. i don't know if they will make it, but i think iran has to

calculate what it would face if -- against a trump presidency in part over hamas and also, again, over the nuclear issue. i think the biggest single issue in the middle east is iran's nuclear program and if iran feels that its position in the region is weakening as it is on virtually every front, israelis have demonstrated certain capabilities to attack it, i think the biggest challenge the new administration could face is an iran that goes towards developing nuclear weapons and will the administration be able to head it off diplomatically or will they and israel decide they have to work together to head it off militarily. donald trump may not want to have military crises, that might be one he can't avoid. >> all of these flash points around the world point to the critical importance of who is the next secretary of defense. let's end with you where we began with that position. we're talking about pete hegseth, the possibility of governor ron desantis of florida being chosen by donald trump to replace hegseth there. we were talking about women in the military, as a man who commanded a lot of women in the military and senator joni ernst

of iowa, a republican who served valiantly in the military, served in the war in iraq as well and the questions she and others will have. what are your final thoughts on that? >> just very quickly, we also heard from lindsey graham, senator lindsey graham, senator joni ernst about this whole issue of women in combat. you know, there is another name for lindsey graham and joni ernst, it's colonel. lindsey graham is a retired colonel in the u.s. air force, a judge advocate general, and as you just pointed out, willie, joni ernst is a lieutenant colonel. these are two people who know the force, they know the women, they understand their capabilities. i think of all the opposition to pete hegseth, all the different things we've talked about, i would draw a line under what colonel lindsey graham and colonel joni ernst have to say. >> all right. retired four-star navy admiral james stavridis and richard

haass, thank you both very much for coming on this morning. and coming up, we will take a break from politics to discuss the latest college football playoff rankings right now alabama is in the field of 12 teams, but there are some who say the tide does not deserve it. pablo torrey is here to talk about that and a lot more. "morning joe" is coming right back. and a lot more. "morning joe" is coming right back hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting!

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welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot of chopper 4. >> gosh. >> over new york city. >> gorgeous morning. >> vampire weekend, framingham. >> okay. be quiet. time for a look at some of the other stories making headlines this morning. new data shows more american students are struggling in school and being outpaced by kids overseas. a closely watched international exam studied math and science scores of fourth and eighth graders in the u.s. and also dozens of other countries. researchers say the pandemic only deepened slides that had already started, noting american science scores have fallen since 2015. president biden is in africa this morning where he reflected on the brutal history of the transatlantic -- he also met with -- biden's three-day visit

marks his first to the continent as president and likely his last international trip before leaving office. and mark zuckerberg is seeking an active role in shaping tech policy under the new trump administration. the company's president of global affairs recently said the social media giant, quote, overdid it a bit when moderating pandemic-related content. according to the guardian that concession appears designed to placate the president-elect. zuckerberg's overtures come as elon musk the owner of rival platform x has emerged as one of trump's closest advisers. >> and the "wall street journal" a few days ago talked about all of elon musk's competitors in the tech world. jeff bezos, mark zuckerberg, others, and what they were trying to do to push back. speaking of pushing back, alabama pushed back against miami and maybe headed back to the college football playoff,

the crimson tide is ranked number 11 in the cfp rankings, one ahead of miami, after they suffered their second loss of the season in three games, this time against syracuse, blowing a 21-0 lead. with neither team playing in weekend miami is unlikely to jump alabama before selection sunday, they would be left out of the 12-team playoff to make room for the fifth highest rated conference champion. oregon remains number one, ohio state drops four spots after its miserable loss to michigan. that bumps up texas, penn state, notre dame and georgia. let's bring in msnbc contributor pablo torrey. mike barnicle also. >> this is a pair. >> -- joins the discussion. pablo of course i knew what was going to happen last night. i knew we were going to get there. reese was going to be moderating the conversation, you were going to have, you know, booger

mcfarland saying that you had to look at the records that both miami and, you know, nuttily maroon raiders jv team were undefeated so they should have g. ahead of the university of alabama. just look at the numbers, alabama 3-1 against ranked teams, miami 0-2 against ranked teams and miami weakest schedule and they almost lost time and time again. >> look, the strength of schedule stuff is real, miami was number 55 in the country, alabama number 17, but when you say, joe, that you knew how this was going to happen, that is exactly what everybody who hates alabama expects you to say because of course now this has the feel of the 13-member cabal making the decision that everybody was alleging they were going to make which was a favoring of your tide. >> you misunderstand me.

i knew what was going to happen in that i knew that there were going to be people saying, oh, you have to look at the record. as if playing one lousy team after another and beating ten of them and losing to two of them, you know, that's -- do you know what that -- i hope the committee has forever learned that when you put a team like tcu in, just because they have a weak schedule, they're going to get humiliated and it's going to be bad for the sport. that's -- what i was saying was i knew people were going to say, oh, look at the schedule and nothing but the schedule. that's idiotic. that's why i said why don't you just look at the nuttily maroon raiders jv schedule. it's ridiculous. >> it is clear that the s.e.c. still produces a strength of record, strength of schedule that is unparalleled in college football but the reason that mike barnicle and i were cursing at each other over in that little area over there and looking at this paper, i brought a paper, joe. this is a 12-team playoff for the first time, i have all of

these notes, it's a little manic weird steve kornacki is what i've been this morning. what you need to be to avoid humiliation just for the record here is the biggest smu fan in the country because just keep in mind, right, there are some things happening as conference championship weekend, clemson, smu in the acc title game. if clemson currently number 17 upsets smu, alabama will get squeezed out. it looks like. >> no, they won't. >> it looks like they will get squeezed out. >> no, they won't. willie, let me tell you why. i bring pablo on here just so he can set me up. he is a bowling pin i can knock down. >> voice of reason. truth teller, bowling pin, your mileage varies. >> willie, i know that pablo is an artist, he doesn't focus on data like i do because as you know i'm data driven. >> always. >> but if smu loses to clemson this weekend they, like miami,

will have played two ranked teams all year and they will be 0-2 against those two ranked teams, just like miami. they will have lost to byu, they will have lost to clemson. 0-2, whereas alabama beat number 19 mizzou, south carolina and georgia. there's no way you're going to put in somebody who can't beat a top 25 team over a team that's 3-1 against the best teams in america, willie. i know you agree with me. >> i can make a case that ole miss and south carolina should also be in. they have the same record as alabama. s.e.c., baby. i'm totally hung up on your two references to the nuttily maroon raiders because only i think i and four other people get the reference. nutly high school, we used to play them in basketball, they had a great eighth grade basketball team led by larry

moes. >> also the home if i'm not mistaken of one john tower a legend in "morning joe" history. >> that's true. wow. digging deep. >> what a reference. i'm totally spun out by this, pablo. >> my apologies for disrespecting nutly, new jersey. >> you're wearing your maroon which is appropriate. the boise state of it all, they have had a great season, they win their conference, they get the bye. i don't think anybody thinks they are the fourth best team in the country but they get the bye because they win their conference. they lost one game at the buzzer at oregon, oregon had to kick a field goal with no time left on the home field to beat boise state. they're there. what could change this weekend? you just talked about clemson and smu, but what could be different at the end of these games? >> there are two loser leaves town championship matchups, it's in the big 12, arizona state,

iowa state, whoever wins that game will be in, whoever loses is going to be out and the aforementioned boise state they place unlv, that's also only one of them -- there can be only one. it's highlander style in the mountain west. by the way, you mentioned oregon. oregon and texas, the number one overall seed is on the line and then in the big 10 of course -- excuse me, in the s.e.c. it's georgia/texas, big 10, oregon/penn state, number one overall seed belonging to oregon. currently feeling the hot breath of quinn ewers. >> they're good. >> you've been following college football since you were putting on your slippers when you were five years of age. >> of course. >> my problem with college football is basically the portal where kids now go to college, they can switch semester after semester, go to other schools, everything like that. that's taken a lot of the romance of college football out of it for me.

i don't know about you, but the history of the portal and players now becoming economic commodities rather than student athletes, it's bothersome. >> i started the season thinking it was destroying college football and i still really think it does destroy the community of college football. i will say, though, here we are at the end of the season, it used to be, everybody knows this, you lose one game in college football, you may be able to play for the national championship. you lose two, do you know what, enjoy your january because you're not going to be playing anywhere. we have teams losing two -- those s.e.c. teams losing two, two, three, two, and every one of those teams may be just as good as oregon who looked weak against wisconsin, who looked weak against other teams, ohio state we saw how weak they looked. texas, you know, texas -- i'm not a believer. maybe they are the best. i will say, mike, at the end one

night -- let's just say one half against georgia, alabama looked maybe like the best college football team since, you know -- since lsu in 2019. the second half they looked like a cellar dweller and that's kind of how this whole season has been, hasn't it, pablo, where you can't -- i can't tell you that oregon could beat five of those teams. i can't tell you texas could. i thought georgia would be the best, but you saw georgia tech take them to eight overtimes, you saw how badly they played the first half. the parody now is absolutely insane. that does make it more exciting, at the same time there is a sense of community that's been lost by the portal. >> yeah, two things, number one, to me the economics of college football have merely come out into the daylight. there's always been money, always been boosters, always been capitalism it's just been in the black market sense.

so what we're seeing is merely the effects of what happens when you know what's going on in the back room. so that's part of the romance, it's always been more sully than i think we wanted to admit. the second thing is that despite all of the reasonable frustrations about the professionalization of this property, it's unkillable because the product itself is games that are obsessed over by maniacs, played by teenagers, and that premise, joe, is why you can see anything on any given weekend, including a fight because someone put a flag on your logo at midfield and then a goalpost comes down. it's the best sport because of the chaos and this sheet is not just a symptom of my madness, it is a symptom of the chaos of a sport that you can try to change, but at its core is that. is that magical romantic thing. >> i will say, speaking of magical romantic thing, one of the most magical romantic things that happened this entire

college football season was one that hurt, that hurt me, but to see vanderbilt fans take the goalposts, take them down, put it into the river. i mean, willie that is correct really was -- that was absolute magic and that is, as pablo says, why college football is still what it is. really quickly, two things to talk about, i just throw this to all of you guys, pablo, first, take us to the bizarre "wall street journal" story about larry ellison, the billionaire, unknown wife and most bizarre recruiting saga ever. some would say this is what's wrong with college football this year. year. >> a fair critique is the fact that larry ellison, ba zillion air, he is married to a woman who is an enormous michigan fan and has turned them into

enormous boosters. the number one prospect in the country, bryce underwood, he was at lsu, committed there, now has flipped to michigan. there is a seven-figure payday, approximately $15 million he could earn in total from endorsements by showing up in ann arbor. it's tom brady calling him three to four times a week before class. it's just the stuff that you used to suspect was happening, but now even more of a caricature. if you don't like this, i understand t but because it's capitalism it's -- it's the market speaking. >> it's basically a booster can function like the owner of a pro sports team and whoever has the most money has the best chance of getting the kid who is going to be the person deciding the crazy 12-team bracket next year. >> imagine putting your backpack on from school and tom brady is calling you, saying, hey, man,

we need you to go to michigan. >> and you're playing coy. i don't know. i don't know, tom. >> before we let you go, because we've done way too much sports for mika's liking. juan soto, espn is reporting that a decision is imminent, could be in the next couple of days or around these winter meetings for major league baseball. mets, yankees in the mix, red sox in the mix, blue jays reported to be in the mix, long shot dodgers, they're already paying somebody $70 million maybe not this guy, too. >> i'm hearing the voice in the back of my head that says of course the yankees are just going to pay to keep him. you've asked the wrong person for an unbiased opinion because last time i was at a yankee game it was game five and i was scarred by the trauma of the worst inning in baseball history. juan soto is the guy who might have the finest plate control and discipline since ted williams. that is the promise this have guy. if you are the new york yankees, any of these teams of course you

will pay as much as you can but to me this all feels like a market being created when you know that the biggest -- the biggest purse with the tightest strings might just be in yankees stadium and those will open up and keep him. >> it might be in queens, though, john. >> the counter is that this generation of steinbrenners has not always opened up the wallet to pay for this. we're delighted the red sox are in the mix, i don't think either of us actually think he will get there but i do think the sox will be big spenders elsewhere this winter. there's been this sense around baseball for months that this is the guy steve cohen wants. no matter what the offer is from the yankees to soto, cohen will simply beat and beat it and beat it. juan soto represented by scott boras does not take hometown discounts if he wants the biggest number it might just be queens. >> mika, i have never seen such

good plate discipline from any hitter in the league, american or national league other than juan soto since ted williams, i'm sure you will agree with me on that. >> i just needed you to say that. thank you. my world is complete. >> i don't think it's over for the red sox. i think there's a special connection with ortiz, manny, with the organization, with the history. you can go to the mets, but if you go to the mets, you're playing for the mets. if you go to the yankees, you're number two, you're number three. if you go to the boston red sox, fred lynn will tell you that can make a difference between being a great player and remembered as a legend. he always said if he stayed with the red sox he would be in the hall of fame. he lft, he went to anaheim, he didn't get there. you don't want to play for a back water team like the new york yankees, you want to play at fenway. >> fenway park is pronouncing his recruiting pitch. >> when you play at fenway

you're part of something bigger and you are the biggest part of that and juan soto -- juan soto would be that man with the best -- take them down. take those pictures down. >> breaking news, everybody, breaking news, that soto might be reality, past is prologue i've been told. >> this is -- the red sox have the best farm system, they have the best young players coming up, they've told him they're going to buy two or three good players to go along with him. come on. this seems simple, mika, doesn't it? >> this whole segment has completed me, it's been magical and romantic. >> that was the vandy. that was the vandy. >> i got it. >> pablo torrey finds out podcast is available now. pablo torrey, thank you, i think. this was too long. >> you are welcome. >> the best plate discipline of our time. all right. let's get to the news. way past the top of the hour, our top story this morning, pete hegseth's nomination as defense

secretary appears to be in jeopardy this morning. this comes amid new reporting involving allegations of his drinking from former colleagues at fox news. nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake has the latest. >> reporter: president-elect trump's pick for defense secretary pete hegseth facing growing skepticism of his chances for confirmation amid damaging news reports. >> do you need to address the questions about your character that have been raised? >> reporter: and now ten current and former fox news employees who worked with hegseth who hosted one of the network's morning shows telling nbc news that he drank in ways that concerned them. two saying on more than a dozen occasions they smelled alcohol on him before he went on air. quote, everyone would be talking about it behind the scenes, one of the former fox news employees said. he should not be secretary of defense another former fox news employee said. his drinking should be disqualifying. a trump transition spokesperson calling the allegations disgusting, completely unfounded

and false and attorneys for hegseth referring us to the transition statement, fox news did not respond. >> so many of these stories about you have involved alcohol, do you have a drinking problem, sir? >> reporter: now nbc news has learned as many as six gop senators are not comfortable supporting hegseth's nomination according to multiple republicans are direct knowledge of the nomination process. hegseth can only afford to lose the support of three republicans if all democrats vote no. >>. the articles i've read, yeah, some are concerning. i don't know if it's true or not. but he will go through the process, he will be asked about it, we will see what happens. >> there are questions that some members have and we're going to be looking for an answer. >> are you among the members who have questions? >> i'm looking to be supportive. >> reporter: but no republican senator has publicly said they will oppose hegseth who is also a decorated combat veteran. >> i think they have a good shot of getting them all through. >> reporter: another trump pick pulled his name from consideration, chad chronsiter

withdrawing his selection for administrator of the drug enforcement administration, posting, quote, over the past several days, as the gravity of this very important responsibility set in, i've concluded that i must respectfully withdraw from consideration. ? nbc's garrett haake reporting there. one more bit of news concerning pete hegseth, the "wall street journal" and the bulwark are reporting president-elect trump is weighing whether to replace hegseth with florida governor ron desantis. nbc news has not independently confirmed that reports. people close to the president-elect's team tell the journal trump allies believe hegseth's nomination may not survive further scrutiny that really has escalated in the last 24 hours. joining the conversation staff writer for the alt tim david from and ed luce. david, i will start with you on this. what's your sense of from the hegseth pick is headed here?

>> just given what one sees on camera if you're too drunk for fox news, you're very, very drunk indeed. so that's alarming. in 1989 president george h.w. bush nominated john tower, senator from texas for secretary of defense. tower was a very considerable person, a defense intellectual, someone who deeply understood defense, unlike the current nominee. it emerged that tower had a drinking problem and when he was drinking too much he would make himself a nuisance or worse to women around him. and for that reason his nomination collapsed in 1989. you don't want to think that our moral standards have declined so much that you can say let's take all the drinking, all the sex pesting, subtract any knowledge of defense, subtract any leadership and there is your next secretary of defense for the 21st century. >> you know, ed luce, the colleagues -- his colleagues at fox news have been concerned for some time, and even before --

even before we got this nbc story -- >> and just clearly word is he's very popular there. >> i was going to say, again -- >> very well-liked. >> these are not people that are like wishing to do him harm at fox news. he apparently is very popular at fox news. and that said, at the same time very concerned about the fact that he would always come to work smelling of alcohol or that he would come to work smelling of alcohol a good bit, and this had been a growing concern. so when we saw courtney kube's reporting and reporting by other nbc journalists, we were -- you know, it's kind of like -- it's kind of like his mom writing a letter saying that she loved him, but she was deeply concerned with him. these are not people -- like these are not left wingers trying to destroy a trump nominee. these are actually people that like him or love him who have

said that he has a problem and it lines up, the alcoholism, the mother talking about the abuse of women, lines up with some of the charges against him that we've also heard in the press. i think the question is how do republicans get past that and i don't think they're going to, but how do they get past that for a guy who even when you take all of that away, is not qualified to be secretary of defense by any standard. >> this has a matt gaetz sort of feeling to it already and i wouldn't be surprised if he pulls out in the next couple of days. there are enough republican senators, way more than three, who are expressing doubts about his managerial competence. you know, he ran a couple of veterans organizations and just had to abandon it because he was so inn disciplined, frequently

drunk. you know, partying the whole time. you know, this is, i think, a really good example of why you should run background checks before you nominate people. trump famously does beauty contest two minute sort of interviews at mar-a-lago. but having a proper background check would have brought all of this out about hegseth, most of which i am told has been a surprise to donald trump, including the drinking. as you know, trump is a teetotaler and doesn't really approve of drinking. so i think hegseth is for the birds, frankly, it's just a question of when he pulls out. >> katty kay, we know there are moments when donald trump really likes to dig in and fight. he doesn't like to apologize, doesn't like to acknowledge that he made a mistake, but to ed's point we certainly heard reporting the last couple of days, i've talked to folks as well who say that the trump team really worried about hegseth's chances to get through the senate and it does feel like this may be nearing its end

unless he can pull off a miracle of some sort in his fox news interview later today. the other thing that donald trump likes, though not apologies, is he likes to be praised for his picks. it does seem like if he goes for desantis, which would be this out of nowhere thunderbolt that would get a lot of attention and probably a claim from the right, that might be another motivation to make the swap. >> yeah, i mean, the same i guess you could say about pam bondi as well, relative to matt gaetz pam bondi is getting a lot of approval up on the hill as well. when you appoint people because it's a beauty contest or because you want the shock and awe factor or because you want to show that you can flex your power and then things starting to wrong, it doesn't look great for the administration as its coming in. they haven't even got in yet and they've already had potentially by the end this have week three of their picks having to step down or pull themselves out of contention and that gets to a lack of seriousness about the process. that's unusual, right? we've all covered american

transitions. this doesn't happen very often. it will be forgotten and if ron desantis gets in and pam bondi gets in, then these moments won't be remembered, but it does -- it kind of gets to what is trump trying to do here? why is he doing this when the senate doesn't like it, these are not the most qualified people, there are plenty of maga people who are qualified, what's he trying to prove by nominating people so out of the bounds of the normal types of people that would be nominated. >> ed luce, your latest piece is joe biden's selfish parting act. let me ask you about that. i mean, when the president of the united states initially says i will not pardon my son, and he says it several times, it was a different atmosphere than occurred within the last six or seven weeks when he decides to pardon himself. circumstances changed drastically for him, his family and potentially his son, hunter.

by drastically i mean mentioning names like matt gaetz and mr. patel, taking over the fbi, the justice department being taken over under the relatively hope of the president of the united states, the incoming president of the united states, to exact revenge on his enemies. that changed things enormously. so why was it so selfish of the president to intervene to save his son at that moment? >> well, look, first of all, as a father myself i fully understand why he did this and protecting hunter is an instinct that your offspring is an instinct that is entirely understandable, but it does go against an argument not just that biden made, but that kamala harris campaign made that democrats in congress were

making which is here is the difference between us and you, donald trump. you don't believe in the rule of law, you believe that you are above the law, we don't, and prove of that is that hunter biden, the president's son, is being subjected to the justice system, to the ordinary course of justice. now, it might be true, and i think it probably is, that hunter biden was subjected to far more than the ordinary course of justice. most, you know, americans would have been given a wrap on the knuckles for lying on their form, gun registration form, but this pardon goes back ten years. this pardon goes back to the time when hunter was trying to monetize his father's name, then vice president biden. that was his only selling point to prospective business partners in china, ukraine and elsewhere was was his name, access to the name. so the scope of this pardon and the timing of it, i think it just -- it's just another sort of get out of jail free card for

trump. it just gives trump that -- it puts sort of wind in the trump sails of saying, look, we are all alike, we are all politicians, we are all corrupt. the system, you know, serves us and we all do the same thing. and that's just not helpful in advance of how undoubtedly will be a mass pardon of the january 6th felons. >> so, david frum, i'd love to hear your take on that. dems are split on this, your take on the pardon of hunter biden. >> i think as ed says it was an understandable mistake. not because it changes anything trump will do, but because it changes how people can speak about what trump will do. trump's greatest asset as i said is that that pervading sense everybody does it. it's hard to explain to americans, especially the americans who elected trump who are the most disengaged from politics, who know the least

about the system, that, well, you know, this is -- trump -- biden did a little bad thing, trump does a big bad thing that's a very important difference, that's going to be hard to explain. look, we are talking about ron desantis possibly being the next secretary of defense. the rumor is that as part of that deal ron desantis, the governor of florida, would appoint as marco rubio's successor a senator from florida trump's daughter-in-law. that's pretty -- if true, that's pretty shocking and upsetting. now, how -- but how do democrats complain about that if biden has just given a pardon to his son only because he was his son. >> right. there's also the contention that what's going to change, what's coming? i mean, donald trump has warned the american people of what his plans for years. i'm not sure the pardoning of hunter biden changes or not pardoning hunter would have changed anything. having said that, all points of view are welcome here. the atlantic's david frum, grave

to have you on. thank you very much. david's latest piece is entitled "marauding nation: in trump's second term, the u.s. could become a global bully." it's online now and we will be reading from that of course. secretary of state antony blinken is in brussels right now for a second day of meetings of nato foreign ministers at the alliance's headquarters. during the first day of meetings yesterday ukraine declared it would not settle for anything less than nato membership to guarantee its future security. nato secretary general mark rude da said the alliance was building the bridge to membership for ukraine but the most urgent issue was providing kyiv with more arms to counter russian forces. and secretary general ruda joins us from brussels. i guess i would ask you, sir, why can't both things happen at the same time? >> good morning. and thank you for having me on the problem. >> good morning.

>> i think there is an absolute need now to focus on making sure that ukraine has what it needs when one day it will decide to get into talks with the russians to be in the position of strength and that means that we have to massively make sure that military aid flows into ukraine, that means also that european countries need to do more. they are doing a lot but it cannot only be shouldered by the americans. all of us have to make sure military aid flows into ukraine. that is priority number one, two, and three, and then debating what happens after a peace deal and all of that, i mean, great, but it's not i think now the priority. >> mr. secretary general, where do you stand on ukraine and access to nato in this new reporting that seems to have come out of kyiv that there is -- could be an acceptance for the occupied areas of ukraine to be part of nato as any part of a peace settlement, even if the whole of the country isn't.

is that something that you think is viable? and how long do you think it would be before all of ukraine might be offered nato membership? >> to be honest, all that talk about giving up on territory, yes or no, and how peace -- what peace would look like is not helpful because if i was putin i would now tick the box that somehow i am assured that i can keep some of the -- of ukraine because some senior people in the alliance or in ukraine are telling me if this i was vladimir putin. so i think let's stop talking about what a peace deal could look like. let's make sure that ukraine can enter those talks in the best possible position. let me tell you why this is so important, because this is not just ukraine. what we are seeing here is is that russia with north korea, with iran, of course, with china is working together and north korea gets missile technology, nuclear technology which is now posing a threat not only to us here in europe but also to the

united states. so that is a big issue. and we have xi jinping. he will be watching. if ever there is a deal who will be on top, who has won, putin or is that the west? if it is putin i'm absolutely sure that he will think, hey, i could now start working on some of my other ambitions in my own region. i think nobody of us wants this. we have to get out on top and start with making sure that ukraine can stay in the fight and can work from a position of strength. >> mr. secretary general, in 2018 then president donald trump at a meeting at nato headquarters in brussels came this close to pulling the united states out of that organization. he has repeatedly criticized nato since then. how is the alliance preparing for his return? >> but he was right in 2018 when he said that we had to spend more and i think it is thanks to donald trump that nato when you

would for a second exclude the u.s. is now at the 2% which was agreed in 2014, but not a lot happened between 2014 until donald trump came on board in 2016, 2017, and since then we have massively on the european side increased our defense spending, so this is thanks to donald trump, but we need to do more. we cannot stick at 2%. it has to be much more if longer term we want to keep the deterrents against the russians and others in a good shape. so we have to do more. and so here i agree with him and what i need from him, from donald trump, is that the huge defense industrial base in the u.s. and european allies are spending hundreds of billions of dollars in the u.s. buying american gear, but it's so cumbersome, so difficult to get to the stuff because you have to get agreements from the pentagon, the white house, and the congress. so he can help me and us here to help him and also the american economy to open up, make sure

that there is total access to the defense industrial base in the u.s. and this is also crucial to keep our deterrents in a situation where we need it so not only more defense spending on the european side, there he is right, but i need his help to make sure that we can also get to the excellent stuff the americans are producing. >> all right. nato secretary general mark rutte, thank you very much for joining us this morning. thank you, sir. >> great having you with us. >> thank you so much. >> a really important point that he makes that some americans who may say, hey, we shouldn't just invest overseas in this war in ukraine, i think i saw a stat earlier this year that about 60%, 65% of the funding goes to america's industrial base in building the weapons, in building the technology that would help ukraine out. so ed luce, how does this work? do we think we get to a point where bluntly members of the

biden administration in february of '22 are actually -- in november of '22 were saying we don't expect the spring offensive to work, we don't expect the lines to move much more, at some point we need to get to a settlement that exchanges land for peace. i'm curious, where do we stand? will nato step forward and provide that guarantee and will that be acceptable to vladimir putin? >> yeah, that's the key $60 billion question is whether putin can be brought to the negotiating table, and he shows no signs of wanting to talk at the moment because his troops continue to make advances, very, very high casualty rate, but they continue to gain parts of the map. so he doesn't want to stop that. he doesn't want to freeze that in place. i think the question is what trump will do since he's promised to fix this on day one, of course, he's not going to be

able to do that, but since his ego is on the line that he is the guy who does deals, what leverage does he have to encourage putin to come to the negotiating table and make concessions? and i think biden has given him -- has given trump a lot of leverage with this lifting of the ms. they can give putin reasons to think twice. whether trump will use that leverage that way is anybody's guess but he has it and biden has given it to him. >> ed luce of the financial times, thank you very much. before we go to break a little earlier in this block there was a comment made about fox news in our coverage about pete hegseth and the growing number of allegations about his behavior over the years and

possible addiction to alcohol or issues with alcohol. the comment was a little too flippant for this moment that we are in. we just want to make that comment as well. we want to make that clear. we have differences in coverage with fox news and that's a good debate that we should have often, but right now i just want to say to say there are a lot of good people who work at fox news who care about pete hegseth and we will want to leave it at that. still ahead on "morning joe," an important timely reminder of how donald trump ripped thousands of children from their parents at the southern border. nbc's jacob soboroff joins us with a look at a new documentary based on his book about family separations during trump's first term and how they could happen again. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back. again. you're watching "morning joe." we will be right back.

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your loved ones are getting older, and they need your support. care.com is here to help. it's an easy way to find background-checked senior caregivers in your area. and some piece of mind. see why millions of families have trusted care. go to care.com now our field staff started to notice very young kids, tender age, anyone below five. that's kind of unusual, right, because most often when you have a kid that young they're traveling with a parent. jim dell la cruz was the supervisor of all the federal

field staff. he had his team keep a spreadsheet. it was growing, growing, growing with the number of kids. >> one of the issues i raised to scott lloyd as a concern was we had run out of beds for babies. we were seeing so many babies, but the babies can't tell you they were separated. >> that's a look at the new documentary "separated" based on "the new york times" best selling book by our friend nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff. the documentary directed by oscar winner erroll morris examines the first trump administration's family separation policy at the southern border and the ongoing human rights crisis it produced. jacob joins us now. he serves as an executive producer on the film which makes its broadcast premiere this

saturday, 9:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. jacob, good to see you. >> you, too. >> this is a story you've been on for years, reporting at nbc, writing your book and now this film as well. i think we've got so much distance from the heat that have issue that it's worth going back and reminding people exactly what the policy is and how it was put into place. >> the other thing that i've just been thinking about is we talked a little bit about this before the election, the film came out in october, it premiered at the venice film festival but it has never been more relevant than it is today. to go back, you asked, in the summer of 2018 i don't think any of us will forget what it was like when the world rose up when the trump administration deliberately ripped apart 5,500 children from their parents for no other reason than to harm them. now here we are on the verge of mass deportation which is family separation by another name. it is not family separation of children from their parents at the border but it's family separation on a massive scale of parents from their children in

the interior of the country, at their schools and in their homes and workplaces. in a way we have never ever seen before. so what a blessing it is not only to start this reporting with nbc but to get to continue it with erroll morris, the oscar winning director who has trained his lens on some of the most consequential members in american history, now this chapter in american history which the republican judge who stopped it said it was one of the most shameful in the history of the country. >> what was the stated goal of family separation? we know what it actually did, but how did they defend it? >> as jonathan white the career official from the office of refugee resettlement says in the film, separations were the goal. the harm was the purpose. i say that objectively as a journalist who has worked here covering this story for six plus years. look at the emails in the movie, listen to the people in the film. prosecutions were a mechanism. that's what they kept saying, kirstjen nielsen said this is about following the law but that's not what it was about if

you listen to other people involved in the policy. the point was to harm. the point was the cruelty that summer. >> so, jacob, you hinted at why this is so important, not just because it's a historical document, a moment in time but perhaps foreshadows what's coming with this next trump administration. >> sure does. >> the mass deportations some may say he won't follow through but he did follow through in 2018 and it's the same people, stephen miller involved. >> tom homan the border czar you will see his name all over. microsoft outlook has never looked so good in this movie. you see emails that are extraordinary. it documents in this forensic way, it is a forensic examination of this policy just like he did a forensic examination, erroll did, of vietnam, iraq, abu ghraib, of even steve bannon in what became i think january 6th. so you look at how this all came together and it is all laid out right there for everybody to see and the way that only erroll morris can. i could never do what erroll has

done in this film, communicate to the american people in this visual way like you're seeing on your screen right now. by the way, with the use of emails, the use of documentary interviews with some of the key officials involved in the policy but also with narrative. a fictionalized story of a mother and son put together by the production designer of "roma" and another oscar winner involved in this production. it's really a beautiful film that he has put together. >> so, jacob, as you reflect on the making of the film, the origin as your work here, cruelty is the point, cruelty will continue to be the point apparently going forward. how do you rationalize the idea, the fact that so many people voted for donald trump to put him back in office knowing that things like this -- >> and as jonathan mentioned, tom homan, stephen miller, the same cast of characters are going back in there.

my personal belief having covered this is, remember -- to me it's an inspiring story also because everyone around the world rose up and stopped this policy from happening, it was not democrats and republicans, it was universal. the pope spoke out in the summer of 2018 and said this is not okay. we are morally opposed to ripping children apart from their parents on purpose as a goal of the u.s. immigration policy. what i think is i was on the floor of the conventions i saw them hold up the mass deportation signs in front of my own eyes, as close as i'm sitting to you today. even though the polls say people support mass deportations i don't think people fully comprehend what mass deportation is is what happened that summer as well. i do think people are tired, i do think people have resorted to going back to talking about immigrants as, you know, points on a chart or on a bar graph or political football, but when they see what happens under this policy that they have promised they will be reminded of what happened in the summer of 2018 and i don't think that that will be the case after that. >> it's one thing to go after

hardened criminals as tom homan is saying he's going after, another thing when you see children ripped away. let's talk about those kids and families, six years on, where are they? have they been reunited with their parents? what does it look like now? >> every time i talk to you about this you ask that same question. i appreciative that you do, because today there are still 1,360 kids without confirmed reunifications from that summer from the 5,500 kids, that is 1,360 kids according to the department of homeland security that could be permanent government created orphans by the u.s. government. we had a screening in new york and i was can kathleen karen in charge of justice in motion, they go door to door looking for the families in central america in order to try to bring them back together. she said some may never be put back together, because there was -- you will see in the movie, virtually no recordkeeping. that was on purpose. there were emails that say what a fiasco or this defeats the

entire purpose when they started putting the families back together because this is what the trump administration wanted when they instituted this policy in the first place and the consequences are today not only the 5,500 who will have a lifetime of trauma but ,360 as we are talking about this that potentially could never be put together. >> i know you will continue to cover this in this new trump administration. the documentary "separated" premieres this saturday 9:00 eastern right here on msnbc. a must watch. nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff. great to see you. coming up next on "morning joe" -- >> i don't know if you know i'm normally a fat guy, but since i've lost all this weight now i'm just arrogant. >> that was a look at the new hulu comedy special "jim gaffigan the skinny" he joins us next on "morning joe." the skins next on "morning joe." ♪ limu emu & doug ♪ woah, limu! we're in a parade.

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now, i understand some people are against the appetite suppressants. what's that's cheating. i'm not playing major league baseball. i'm just a fat guy trying to not die. but it's not fair. neither is balding and being born with no pigmentation, but i've learned to deal with it. this is an exciting time for me. i'm thin, i'm in my 30s.

[ laughter ] it is crazy. most of my adult life i heard this constant internal monologue, jim, you have to stop eating and control your impulses. all i needed was a weekly shot that killed all the passion inside of me. >> a look at the new standup special "jim gaffigan the skinny" the three-time emmy winner opens up about his recent weight loss, the complexities of marriage and the challenges that come with being a parent to many, many teenagers. jim, great to see. >> you great to be here. i'm so excited to be here on a panel with a diverse, you know -- a bunch of white guys. we finally made it, you guys. because of the hard work of msnbc, now we have four white guys. >> here we are. >> sitting here. >> here we are. >> we've gotten there. we've made it, right? >> do you know what i love, jim, is watching you watch yourself doing standup or watching any actor watch themselves in a movie. what are you thinking when you

watch? are you critiquing yourself or what's the -- what are you thinking? >> you know, this may sound harsh, all i think is god hates me. is that too dark? no. it's brutal. and that's after -- because i listen to my sets, it's like i don't like my voice. i don't like a lot of it. but that's good, right? that's called low self-esteem, which makes someone better. >> it drives you, it makes you better. >> i think so. >> let's talk about this special in particular, a svelt jim gaffigan, the special is called "the skinny." why did you want to put the focus on that? it's something in our culture and society right now and a lot of people are talking about it. >> some of it is just -- i just think it's really weird that people are secretive about it. you know, it's just -- i mean, i'm not paid by mounjaro but i should be. if they want to send me money. but i don't think that there's any shame in taking care of

yourself really. and it's not like i'm not a gluten anymore i'm just -- instead of eating three boxes of tris kits i'm just eating a half a box. >> i'd love to see jim in a mounjaro ad, skipping through a field of lilacs. >> right. maybe in a tub. >> yes. >> i feel like it would be similar to a viagra ad. >> separate tubs. >> separate romantic tubs. >> what happened, what triggered this? was it a cardiologist talking to you? was it you just getting out of the shower in front of a full mirror? >> wow. >> i live in enough denial -- no, but thank you for that image. people are eating breakfast. no, my doctor, she is a great doctor and she brought it up. she was like, why don't you -- she was like you are a fat ass, why don't you think about doing this. and i was like it's not going to work, but i'll try it. and it worked. it's amazing.

any -- any -- you know, any way i can just take a shot and feel less emotion is a good thing. >> it's magic. >> that is awesome. >> wow. >> jim, thank you so much. we've been such huge fans of yours for such a long time, my kids, myself, on broadway, standup, everything else. this is -- we're a long way from hot pockets to this, but i will say what's interesting here is i love -- i love how you said your reaction from your friends were not to say anything to you but they would go up to your wife and they were like, is he okay? >> yeah. >> it's a lot easier for them to believe that you were sick and dying than that you actually had the discipline. >> absolutely. you know, there is just no scenario where i would have any type of will power, right? i'm not going to have some self-discipline. i mean, there is -- you know, i worked out in my 20s and 30s, but, you know, you get -- i've

done that. right? it's just -- it's too much effort. i can't do it anymore. >> the shot is better. let's watch another clip from the special here, this is one of jim's favorite subjects and that is being a parent to teenagers. >> parenting teenagers has made me a better comedian. no, that's not it. a bitter comedian. i know that sounds negative, but it is almost sad when a kid becomes a teenager, right, because you have this cute 12-year-old and then, boom, they become satan. you can literally witness the curiosity and wonder transform into body odor and poor judgment. and then you the parent, you're supposed to learn how to communicate with them. my wife emails me articles, how to talk to your teenager. i'm like, delete. >> we are on the brink of this, our kids are 13 and 10. so thank you for the fair

warning. when your kids watch this, what do they say when they see that they're nodding for your comedy? >> i try not to interact with my children. >> that's very smart. >> no, but i think they get t i mean, they don't really care, but, i mean, i have a 12-year-old, three teenagers and a 20-year-old. you know, i'm essentially living in a psych ward. so it's -- it's a lot, but, yeah, no, they kind of get it. but, you know, there is an odd relationship with -- and i don't specify which kid is torturing me the most. >> satan at the moment. >> right. but it's a weird thing raising teenagers. and i know that, you know, you're not going to hear it. i don't know if it's -- you know, like throughout the years you hear about the teenage years being difficult, but you only really -- it only makes sense when they are teenagers, when you're leaving with the sociopaths. >> i like what you say, too, it

makes it easier to talk about them knowing they have no interest in your career and won't be seeing the special anyway. >> they will -- they will not see it. i mean, obviously i joke around about it because i love them, but it is -- it's a crisis. parenting, there is a reason why every parent of a teenager looks like they just walked away from a car accident. because it's hard. >> there is some shock. there is some shock on their faces. i don't know if you've been back to this building since, when your run upstairs on "saturday night live." >> yeah. >> as tim walz. i told you i was on a long watch yesterday listening to you and conan, that episode is incredible, about how this came to be. if you don't mind sharing the story with us your representatives told "snl" that you had been making videos that you hadn't been making. >> yes. so the "snl" obviously is this huge iconic show and the standup

procedure is out of respect for the process is you don't really campaign for it. you don't go on and, here is my impression of tim walz. so i was very respectful of it. but in the background my manager and agent apparently had been telling the "snl" people that i would submit these videos of me doing tim walz, which i hadn't been doing, and they kind of sprung it on me one night at 11:00, they were like, yeah, we've been telling people that you're doing these tim walz impressions. i was like that's interesting, whatever helps me get the job. they were like and now they want those videos. i was like so that means i have to do them right now. and they were like, yeah. so then i went -- but i essentially -- my tim walz is just an impression of my brother mitch. i'm from the midwest and my brother mitch like governor walz is a very sweet, you know, sentimental, enthusiastic guy, whereas like i have a dark heart. i'm like the grinch. do you know what i mean?

>> you played it very well. that's just good agenting, by the way. they got you up on that stage. the new standup special "jim gaffigan: the skinny" is streaming on hulu. always great to see you. >> thank you so much. coming up next, we will move back to the politics with a look at the shaky support on capitol hill for donald trump's pick for defense secretary and the new reporting on who could replace pete hegseth for the post if the president-elect moves on from the former fox news host. "morning joe" is coming right back. former fox news host "morning joe" is coming right back

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investigators are trying to determine how a stowaway passenger was able to sneak on to a delta -- >> mike barnicle did this, by the way torques dublin last week. >> in so many ways this is not funny. from new york city to paris over the holiday weekend. nbc news correspondent stephanie gosk has more. >> reporter: new details about the woman who allegedly snuck on board a delta flight from paris. >> this boarding pass -- >> this passenger shot this video that he says shows her being questioned when the flight landed. >> she ended up pulling out this

pass and gave it to the flight attendant and it was just not a boarding pass. >> french border police say she did not have valid travel documents and was detained. a source familiar with the matter says saturday night she was put on a return flight to jfk. >> please help here. united states broke my heart. >> reporter: gary was on that plane with his family. >> something triggered her to start being uncooperative. >> reporter: he says she appeared to be russian and middle-aged. >> she was then escorted off the plane. >> reporter: days before the woman managed to elude tsa id checks and gate agents, a source with knowledge of the situation tells nbc news she first used a lane reserved for flight crews and then skirted the standard id check. but she went through a body scanner and voluntarily removed two bottles of water that officers discovered in her bags. eventually sneaking on to the paris flight where she was ultimately discovered.

>> we're just waiting for the police to come on board. they may be here now. >> reporter: the tsa says she was not carrying any prohibited items and did not pose a security threat. jerry fallon is a former tsa director. >> how surprised are you that she was able to actually end up on that plane without being stopped? >> yeah, i'm very shocked. we didn't catch her even boarding on the aircraft itself. how that happened is beyond my comprehension, frankly. >> i mean, it's staggering. you obviously have to get through tsa, you have to get through -- you have to show your boarding pass, you then have to get on to the plane, you scan it. like how do people -- how did this happen? >> a lot of unanswered questions. still ahead, the last house race of the election has finally been called. we will take a look at how it will impact the balance of power in the lower chamber. and we will have more of the fallout from south korea following the president's failed attempt at invoking martial law. "morning joe" is coming right back. ing right back so i saved hundreds.

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the weekly news letter "home and away" and u.s. special correspondent for bbc news katty kay. amid with growing controversy over pete hegseth, "the wall street journal" is reporting that president-elect trump is weighing whether to replace him with florida governor ron desantis. both outlets cite people familiar with discussions. nbc news hasn't independently confirmed reporting. this comes amid increasing concerns from some republican lawmakers over the mounting allegations concerning hegseth's personal life. people close to the president-elect's team say general trump allies believe hegseth's nomination may not survive further scrutiny. picking to desantis would amount for a stunning turn for trump, but in desantis trump has a well-known conservative with military and executive

experience who shares trump's and hegseth's view on eliminating the so-called woke policies from the armed forces. joining us now the reporter who broke the story, mark caputo. mark, what more can you tell us? is this imminent? are there any other catches that could hold this up? >> i was told it was a really serious conversation they've been having for a while. it's not donald trump's people talking to ron desantis' people. it's donald trump talking to ron desantis about it. i got to say having covered both of these guys, it's hard to see this happening, but i've been assured and was reporting it yesterday that no, no, this could really happen. it's not just that pete hegseth has these problems. it's that donald trump is serious not just about getting the woke out of the military, but that he believes there's a certain amount of bloat and

understandably so, and perhaps a certain amount of fat that needs cut from the pentagon budget. you need someone who is able to do that and withstand the political pressure and there's one thing whether you dislike ron desantis or like ron desantis that most people agree on, that desantis is very stubborn and when he sets his mind to doing something, he does it. if, and it's a big if, if ron desantis is appointed to be defense secretary, there's a strong possibility that he'll try to really cut some of the pentagon budget which has a lot of spending in it. >> jonathan lemire, you reported on donald trump for a very long time and understand -- these stories started coming out about his -- about hegseth's drinking problems and we've heard it over

and over again and, in fact, we had heard -- there's an nbc report talking about how numerous people inside of fox news say that he still has a drinking problem. he still shows up drunk. he still shows up smelling of alcohol. we had actually heard that from -- our team heard that from a source inside fox news, a reliable source inside fox news last week. saying you don't have to talk about 2018. this is still happening. that was a real concern that people inside the trump transition had also been hearing. so i heard last week and i know you had too, from my sources inside the senate the the republicans were already going south on this guy last week. then his mother's letter hit

this weekend, that actually lined up with what we've heard from so many of these accusations about his behavior and his drunkenness when he was running the two pence organizations. now the fox news story has come out. the fox news story that nbc is reporting is no shock to the trump transition team. they were already hearing it from inside fox themselves. given what donald trump's always said about alcohol, about his brother, about the lack of discipline -- he even wrote about it. hard to see how pete hegseth gets through this and hard to see, especially when lindsey graham is saying there are a lot of concerns, one senate insider laughingly told me, lindsey graham's a lagging indicator. this was done sometime ago. talk about it. >> few things. that nbc news story that suggested hegseth would show up

on the set at fox smelling of alcohol, courtney kube will join us in a few minutes. donald trump has distaste for alcohol. he said he's never drank in his life. he blames it for the death of his brother, someone he cares about deeply. he judges people who he thinks drinks too much. rudy giuliani lost a cabinet post in part because trump saw him drinking too much. these reports are not going to help hegseth's case. hegseth yesterday -- i heard from republicans yesterday. even as hegseth has been making rounds on capitol hill, his nomination is in danger. there could be six or more republican senators, you only need four, who are ready to sink his nomination, including lindsey graham who normally goes along with whatever trump wants. hegseth appearing on fox later for an interview, which is an

effort to save his nomination. if it's desantis, this is a one-time rival of trump. just like rubio, trump has improved relations with desantis. i'm told from republicans that desantis would clear through. he has relations on the hill from his time in congress. he was vetted from his time as governor and his ill-fated presidential bid. they think he doesn't have the baggage hegseth does. >> opening another big position in the state of florida. you have the senate with marco rubio and the governor's office with potentially ron desantis. let's get to that report from nbc. three current and seven former fox news employees said hegseth drank on the air. nbc news reports three current

employees said his drinking remained a concern until trump announced him as his choice to run the pentagon, at which point hegseth left fox. for the sake of national security i hope he's stopped drinking, one former employee said. he should not be secretary of defense another employee said. his drinking should be disqualifying. this follows a report from the new yorker that the allegations of drunkenness that led to hegseth's ouster from two veterans groups decades ago. it's been said that these disgusting allegations are completely unfounded and false. pete has never done anything to jeopardize that. hegseth's lawyer referred nbc to the trump team statement. fox news did not respond to a

request for comment. joining us now nbc news pentagon correspondent courtney kube, one of the reporters who broke these allegations. courtney, you have ten, i believe, sources on this story. it's not just one person leaking something out to you. tell us more about what you found in your reporting. >> reporter: yeah, and i have to say we worked on this, our colleagues and i worked on this for several weeks. we spoke with more people than are reflected in the story. these aren't people who are out to necessarily, you know, criticize fox news. consistently we were talking to current and former fox news employees who were concerned about his -- pete hegseth's qualifications for such an enormous job, leading the department of defense. as you mentioned, willie, ten current and former colleagues from fox news who told us about this pattern of behavior over

the course of years where pete hegseth would repeatedly show up sometimes moments before the 6:00 a.m. show would start on the weekend morning and he would talk about being hung over, about how he barely slept or not slept at all because he had been out all night partying. he would oftentimes come in and they could still smell the alcohol from the night before. coming in with the aftermath from his night before being out drinking. we also spoke with colleagues who were at social events with him, fox news social events, where they would see him overindulging. it's behavior reminiscent of that new yorker article where you mentioned him overindulging with alcohol and at times behaving in ways that was embarrassing or not fitting of a leader of an organization. you're on shows. you know how this goes.

when the host or anchor shows up moments before a broadcast, before you go on the air, it's a lot of stress on the staff, on the show, on the producers. that's what we consistently heard, that this behavior caused angst and concern. yes, while we're talking for the most part about several years ago before he moved to tennessee, we also spoke with colleagues who said this continued to be a concern, his drinking, up until he terminated his contract with fox news november 12th when president-elect trump named him as his secretary of defense. a consistent thing we heard throughout the course of the several weeks we reported out this story, willie, was the concerns about his haracter here. when hegseth was first named several weeks ago, there was a lot of talk about the policies that he could come in and implement as the secretary of defense.

we heard about his feelings that women should no longer serve in combat positions, what could happen with transgender individuals serving in the military, serving openly right now. the conversation has really shifted over those weeks to concerns about his character. the drinking has been one. his treatment of women has been another. as you mentioned, it's been a nearly daily drip, drip, drip of additional allegations and accusations. that's why, as you were talking about it, there seemed to be this increasing concern among republican senators who would usually support president-elect trump's nominees. >> all right. nbc's courtney kube, thank you. greatly appreciate it. let's bring in the admiral. we talk about how two things can be true at one time. let's walk through this for a second on a human level. everything that we've read about pete hegseth and his first tours

in combat zones suggest that he did a great job, honorable and in uniform was respected by those around him in his early tours. we also know, though, a lot of men and women come back from war zones and perhaps they have ptsd. i'm not -- i'm not suggesting that's the case here. i don't know what the case is here. but it is very obvious by seeing the pattern of behavior since he returned from combat that he obviously -- he needs help. i mean, if you -- even just read what his mother wrote. and i know that now she's trying to be a good mom and trying to defend her son after that's out. what she wrote lines up with what people said before, during

and now after. so this appears to be -- and i think the trump transition team believes this. this appears to be a man who needs help and not the nuclear codes. >> yeah, i think we talked about that earlier in the week on exactly that point. there's three baskets of problems here. number one, we talked about quite a bit this morning, the character issues. that email from his mother is heart breaking to read. then there's the policy issues. i don't see how you become the secretary of defense of an organization that's 20% women in virtually every combat role. by the way, i've commanded thousands of women in combat since i was a commander in the navy, a commodore, an admiral at sea, in afghanistan. women fight well in combat. i've seen it again and again.

you can't go into the pentagon with that kind of a stance, that women should be pulled out of the force. there's a policy basket. then, third, i think -- finally here it's the size, the scope, the scale of running the pentagon. the place is 3 million people, active and reserve. budget of 800, 900 billion. the people we need at that desk -- i'll give you one republican and one democrat. robert gates, head of the cia, i worked directly for. leon pinetta, i worked for. these are the serious people with need in the pentagon. i think hegseth's nomination is in trouble. pete hegseth's combat record, i respect that. there are other options out there. if you look at ron desantis, he

served in combat. he was the navy j.a.g. in the middle east. his combat record is just fine, but he's pretty clean on the other issues of charter we talked about. >> richard, pete hegseth said in a book he wrote and in multiple interviews that women should not serve in combat calling them, quote, a distraction. he was asked about this yesterday and he said, i think they're already in combat. he doesn't want them to be, but what's he going to do about it. we heard from lindsey graham yesterday saying it's very difficult for pete hegseth. i have a lot of questions for him about his behavior and his past. where do you think this is heading? >> it's clear where this is heading. there's precedent for this. george herbert walker bush, his

first nomination, john tower, he had problems with alcohol. it then became dick cheney. you have someone who has these personal issue, it's not going to happen. if it is ron desantis or anybody, the idea that the biggest problem facing the american military is wokeness is preposterous. it's not in the top 10, 50 or 100. we have real issues. it goes beyond the fact that there may be bloat in the budget. we have an inadequate budgets. we're facing challenges in three geographies. you have china, russia, north korea, iran aligning. there's bloat in the pentagon budget. we're spending too much on the wrong systems, but this is a very powerful case that this needs to be a time of great innovation and expansion of what we spend on defense given what's going on in the world and in the world of technology.

>> you know, katty kay, yesterday when lindsey graham came out and talked about the problems he was having, obviously there's the fact that he's just not qualified to run a bureaucracy that large. there also of course were the drinking problems, the character problems, his mother talking about his abuse of women, the allegations the. but this is what struck me about lindsey graham's statement. it was almost like he was channelling joannie ernst. he said leadership comes at the top and i want to make sure that every young woman who joins the military feels respected. joni ernst also said we're going to have a really frank and

thorough conversation. again, lindsey graham, a conservative from south carolina, saying we want to make sure every young woman entering the military feels respected, that really does sound like one of the final straws there. >> i loved your description of lindsey graham as the lagging indicator. >> wasn't mine. that was the source on the hill who said that. >> we take what we're given. it was a very good one. i noticed that too. maybe this is lindsey graham pushing back against quite a lot of those stories in the press about the flexing of muscles and women feeling intimidated. mark, let me get you a little more on pete hegseth. what's fascinating about the pick of hegseth and matt gaetz, why did donald trump choose

these people? i realize the fox thing and the presentation. there are plenty of people in maga world who are also qualified to run these huge, big departments. what was this? was this showing that he could? was this keeping the base happy? was this owning the libs? what was the point of these selections? >> two separate things, but overall understand this, donald trump is going to do what donald trump wants to do when donald trump wants to do it. when he doesn't want to do it, he doesn't do it. that's the story with matt gaetz. donald trump wanting a loyal attorney general, someone who would go in there, to paraphrase someone who paraphrased what matt gaetz told him, to go into the department of justice and start cutting fing heads. he used the full word. donald trump wants someone to clean house and go after the politicized department of justice and prosecutors. that could be debated. the problem that trump faced is

that he made this decision on the fly and then, as they counted votes, he realized he would have to spend a whole bunch of political capital on matt gaetz and it wasn't worth it. similarly the pete hegseth decision was made on the fly. department of defense isn't as important to donald trump as attorney general. it's a huge and crucially important agency. he always liked hegseth. he wanted hegseth to head up veterans affairs in his previous administration. he thought this was a good opportunity to bring him back as a shock and awe candidate, along with gaetz. i think, but i can't promise, that hegseth goes the way of matt gaetz because i'm hearing the same conversation again. top people are saying i don't know if the senate is going to do this. one thing that's different about donald trump now than in 2016 he has a much better idea how the

senate operates and he knows he needs to do his agenda in a very short period of tile.me. he doesn't want to get caught up in nasty confirmation fights. it's not going to surprise me to see pete hegseth say, i'm a distraction and he exits stage right. albeit it's donald trump. so he might dig in and fight harder. we never know. coming up, the latest from south korea after a wild 24 hours of political chaos. our retired admiral weighs in on what's happening there and what it means for american interests in that key part of the world. r.

the president of south korea facing called for impeachment after he declared martial law. he abruptly imposed this yesterday claiming the operation was trying to over throw ng the n was trying to over throw protests erupted in seoul and hundreds of troops stormed the parliament. the national assembly voted to rescind martial law calling it invalid. the president lifted the order, bending to political pressure.

now south korean lawmakers have submitted articles of impeachment and are calling for his resignation. the country's defense minister has offered to step down. >> admiral, there's so much to talk about. very chilling that an ally of the united states, somebody as important to the united states -- >> would fall this way. >> -- would fall this way. also, of course, encouraging how quickly the pro democracy forces pushed right back almost immediately. love to have your take about this and also explain to americans waking up this morning just how important south korea is. coincidentally ron desantis came on this show and one of the things i was surprised about -- this was during the campaign -- how much he dumbed down his presidential campaign. when he started talking about

foreign policy, he could take you around the globe very quickly and effectively. one of the things he said was the alliance between south korea and japan was extraordinarily important for the united states in pushing back against china. talk about that. talk about what you saw yesterday and what we should be taking away from it in america. >> let's start with alliances in the pacific. you know, we don't have a nato in the pacific obviously. what we do have is a series of vital bilateral nation to national nation alliances. you mentioned japan. it's also australia, new zealand, thailand, the philippines. we have this array of alliances in the pacific. each are critical. that brings us to south korea. when i saw this yesterday

morning, i was shocked by the sudden move by president yoon and the response. this was not only protesters storming the parliament, it was lawmakers storming the parliament, from both sides. they overtook those barricades and came in to vote 100% against the coup. that's what undid it at the end of the day. you could say, as you're showing those pictures, unfortunately feels like january 6th except in this case, the people cracking in are the good guys and they came in and overturned this attempt. final thought, military, one, south korea is in a state of war with north korea. we have 20,000 u.s. troops stationed there.

we have thousands of troops in japan. the united states has a big stake in all this. yesterday was a good day for democracy and a good day for alliances. >> richard, i had the same thought watching that. i said look at the forces of democracy go. they literally rushed to the legislature to undo this and undone very quickly. can you explain the context in which this happened, for people to understand why the president called for martial law? >> the president, president yoon, someone i know pretty well, he has a police background. very rigid. in some ways he snapped and that brings to the other side, his wife was under pressure for being investigated. he couldn't get anything done. dozens of people were facing impeachment in his administration. couldn't get the budget through. he was frustrated at every turn. he did this. clearly didn't think it through. gets reversed quickly.

as the chinese said, he lost the mandate of heaven. i don't see him coming back from this. there will be formal impeachment. there's a legal procedure in south korea. i would be surprised if he survives this politically. i would bet he can't. we're probably facing new elections for president in south korea. south korea is in the top ten countries of everything, in terms of its economy, it's involved in ukraine as an important provider of ammunition. issue after issue south korea is a major country and one of the big breakthroughs in the last few years was the reconciliation of south korea and japan. it's one of president biden's biggest accomplishments. right now you have political uncertainty in south korea and japan, new leadership there.

you have to worry about where this is heading. we'll turn from asia to the middle east and the new violence in syria and what it means for that country's two biggest supports, russia and iran. that conversation is just ahead on "morning joe." (speaking to self) about our honeymoon. what about africa? safari? hot air balloon ride? swim with elephants? wait, can we afford a safari? great question. like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management.

♪♪ ♪♪ so let's change topics, admiral, and let's go from south korea to the middle east. so much happening there. please, give us your insights and we'll ask richard for insights this morning. first of all, what's happening in syria and what that suggests about iran and russia's weakening positions? also, the fragile cease-fire between israel and hezbollah.

>> let's start in syria. i think you've got it exactly right. as the dark forces here, if you will, who had been supporting bashar al assad, a dictator and war criminal who had his way in syria for decades, his family. what you're seeing is russia weakened because of what's happening in ukraine. iran weakened because of the series of attacks against them by israel. hezbollah, another supporter of the syrian regime likewise quite weakened. as always, in geopolitics, a vacuum, as there's less going on that can stand in support of assad rebel forces are coming in. before we start cheering too loudly, the rebels in syria has

a lot of taliban dna. this is not good guys and bad guys on the march here. it indicates iran is losing its grip and what iran has desperately try to build is a land bridge that stretches from tehran to the shores of the mediterranean. this takes a big chunk out of that. that's a good thing. final thought, let's turn to the cease-fire which feels like it's kind of crumbling between hezbollah and israel. this was never looking like it was going to be a sudden -- something to solve all the problems and you're seeing finger pointing going back and forth and that weakens the chance for any kind of cease-fire down south in gaza. woe to the hostages. the bleak outlook in the middle east continues.

>> i agree with jim. the enemy of your enemy can still be your enemy. there's no good guys there. this is basically a failed country now. in the middle east we have to worry about strong states and weak states. you have strong states like iran, but also weak ones like syria, like lebanon which can't do what governments were meant to do. we see terrorist exploiting them. the cease-fire in the north, i agree it's fraying. i don't think it necessarily collapses. there's a big gray area between something that works and something that fails. it's not a switch. it's a dial. i would watch two things. yesterday donald trump was putting pressure on hamas to release the hostages. i think, you know, the administration is still pushing very hard for a cease-fire there. i don't know if they'll make it. i think iran has to calculate what it would face if -- against a trump presidency over hamas and over the nuclear issue.

the biggest single issue in the middle east is iran's nuclear program. if iran's feels its position in the region is weakening, israel has demonstrated abilities to attack it. the biggest challenge the new administration could face is iran and nuclear weapons. will the administration be able to head it off diplomatically or will they have to head it off militarily? donald trump might not want a military crisis, that may not be one they can avoid. coming up, we'll talk about mark zuckerberg's outreach to the president-elect as elon musk relishes in his role as a top adviser to the administration. "morning joe" is coming right back. parade. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual.

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new data shows more american students are struggling in school and being outpaced by kids overseas.

a closely watched international exam studied math and science scores of fourth and eighth graders in the u.s. and also dozens of other countries. researchers say the pandemic only deepened slides that had already started, noting american science scores had fallen since 2015. president biden is in africa this morning where he reflected on the brutal history of the transatlantic slave trade. he also met with angola's leaders to talk about economic opportunities between the countries. biden's three-day visit marks his first as president, and likely his last international trip before leaving office. and mark zuckerberg is seeking an active role in shaping tech policy under the new trump administration. the company's president of global affairs recently said the social media giant, quote, overdid it a bit when moderating

pandemic-related content. that concession appears designed to placate the president-elect. zuckerberg's overtures come as elon musk as emerged as one of trump's closest advisers. >> the "the wall street journal talked about elon musk's competitors in the tech world, jeff bezos, mark zuckerberg and others and what they were trying to do to push back. coming up, a look at the key senators to watch in the confirmation fights for president-elect trump's nominees. ryan nobles joins us live from capitol hill, all straight ahead on "morning joe." do your dry eyes still feel gritty, rough,

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subways, saying i don't understand how this is possible. there was an element of guilt. i should have done more. in part it's because people didn't take donald trump literally or seriously back in 2016. that has changed. the significant difference post november this year, 2024, is women know what's about to come. i mean, just in the last few days we heard about another woman in texas who died because she was denied the medical care she needed. so it's the fear that is a big -- is a big part of the change and that leads to these conversations certainly we're hearing from women saying they're girding themselves. there's despair because they know what's coming. >> right. and, look, there would be some on the right who would have a field day with this saying, oh, my gosh, depression. yes, actually. women are dying because they can't get health care that they desperately need because of

these strict bans put in place after the fall of roe, which trump takes credit for. your power from you. this is the reality they're you have the same power that you living with now. i have one, too. that i think is worthy of being i'd be so lost without mine. we are talking about mentors, right? did before november 5th. yes. extremely concerned, if not a mentor can guide you. and you have the same purpose support you. and unlock your potential. depressed, and, yet, i say we being a mentor can be just as life-changing. that you did. still fight and we still look and you have the same ability to you can create opportunities. for some sort of middle ground and inspire the next generation. in all of this and deal with the helping someone find their path can transform your own. engage and inspire. so don't ever let anybody or any reality, the hand that we've so find a mentor. been dealt and fight forward. or become one. circumstance take your power it's okay to feel pretty down wait, can i do both? from you. you know what? let me ask my mentor. of course, you can. about it. bring someone along on your journey. >> that was vice president maggie, what role should kamala harris last week sharing companies play in terms of and see where it takes you. some optimism and strength with fostering an environment where her supporters while addressing employees feel supported during any type of difficult time? her loss to president-elect donald trump. >> i'm glad you say any type of yet, trump's imminent return to the oval office has had a ripple difficult time. we talk a lot at forbes about effect in the professional the power of compassionate world, particularly on women. leadership, showing up for your mental health experts say understanding your colleagues. they're seeing many female that's good for business results patients disappointed with the election results going into the in normal times and post office with, quote, even election. we have tips on the site. high-functioning depression. there are three i like.

here to discuss, msnbc number one, acknowledge the emotional toll your employees might be experiencing. contributor huma abedin and it's saying you recognize people forbes women editor maggie feel their rights are threatened mcgrath. or they lost rights and might be maggie, your team has been reporting on this. feeling anxious. number two, encourage i understand it. for me, the impact on women's flexibility. remote work, extended deadlines, health has just been devastating extra pto. and in terms of dealing with tell your team you're open to them taking these things if they moving forward, now it's about need them. moving forward within this new finally, provide manager reality and trying to see what training so that the people can be done about these strict managers, especially newer bans and it's hard that we're taking such a step back to take people managers know how to show a step forward. talk more about your reporting up and display empathy for their team members. it's about leading with your on this dynamic at forbes. heart. >> all right. what have you found? huma, quickly, the role of >> you're right, mika. we have the policies that affect social media, how do we balance being engaged but also women's health, but this is about mental health. protecting mental health? what the american psychological >> the key word is to be association has found is that balanced. don't disengage entirely. elections stress people out. the fight has to continue. we know this. we know that. 70% of u.s. adults said they as a woman said yesterday, she thought the fight began on

were stressed by the election night and she cried on presidential election. what's notable is this stress thanksgiving because that was the time she was allowed to give and anxiety did not dissipate after the election results. that emotional space. that's important. find those spaces where we take in particular, this is affecting women. care of ourselves. >> maggie mcgrath and medical doctors who spoke with forbes said that patients who are female, parents, part of the abedin, thank you. the nominations for forbes 50 lgbtq community, people most affected by the policies of the over 50 global list still open. incoming administration, are we're extending the deadline to appearing outwardly fine, but december 9th. if you know a woman living internally struggling. what this means on a practical outside the u.s. shattering age and gender norms, consider basis, they might be showing up nominating her today. at work and getting stuff done, you can nominate yourself as well. get the details at forbes.com but they could be procrastinating, calling out and knowyourvalue.com. sick more and experiencing up next, we get an update irritability and detachment. the popular term for this is from capitol hill where donald high-functioning depression. trump's nomination for defense secretary is. we're back with the fourth hour

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♪ ♪ ♪ del ♪ something has-able changed within me ♪

♪ it's time to try defying gravity ♪ ♪ ♪ ron desantis. according to two sources familiar with the decision

making. the list of possible contenders for the pentagon top job also includes senator joni ernst of iowa, and senator bill hagerty of tennessee, according to two sources. trump's choice to serve as his national security adviser, congressman mike waltz is also a possible contender. nbc news has reached out to desantis' office and the trump transition team overnight, but did not immediately receive a response. let's bring in the reporter following this story and reaction on capitol hill, nbc news capitol hill correspondent, ryan nobles. ryan, what's the latest? >> reporter: well, mika and joe, it does seem as though the trump transition team is looking for new options as it relates to pete hegseth, especially because our reporting is telling us that there could be as many as six republican senators who are no-votes on hegseth right now, and maybe that universe is even larger than six. he, of course, can only afford

to lose three votes and not win confirmation, but even though the trump transition appears to be looking for options beyond hegseth, that was not stopping hegseth himself from trying to salvage this nomination. he is already up here on capitol hill today. he's scheduled to meet with a group of senators. he's also going to meet with members of the house of representatives as well to make his case for why he should be the next secretary of defense and what he would do in that position. so it's clear that hegseth himself has not backed away from this position, but it's getting increasingly clear based on the conversations that i and my colleagues were having yesterday up here, that this nomination is on life support, and it's not necessarily one specific accusation that's led to the hegseth nomination being in peril. it's the accumulation of all of them, and the drip, drip, drip every single day it seems of a new story that would raise questions about his ability to lead the biggest department in

the federal government and be in charge of 1.3 million active duty service members. you obviously have the accusations of mistreatment of women. you also have the accusations of alcohol abuse. our courtney cubi breaking that story yesterday about how his fox colleagues were concerned very recently about how much he was drinking and how that impacted the work that they were doing on television, and then of course, there's the accusations of financial mismanagement from these relatively small veterans organizations that he was in charge of, and then you're asking him to be in charge of an organization, a department with a budget that's nearly a trillion dollars. i think that's why you're seeing many of these u.s. senators starting to question whether or not it's worth the political capital to spend on a nominee like hegseth. i think the big difference though, between hegseth and the matt gaetz nomination which we also saw go down in flames, is that pete hegseth is someone that the senators generally like as a person. they find him to be charming.

they have had a good experience with him in his capacity as a fox news host and on the campaign trail because he's essentially kind of a republican advocate for many of these different senators, whereas matt gaetz, many of them did not have a very good personal relationship with him. in fact, in many respects, matt gaetz was just disliked. so that i think is giving him a little bit more runway than gaetz perhaps had, and that's part of the reason i think you still see him up here pitching himself to these senators, but right now i think it's going to be a long shot for him to win confirmation, and there could be a universe in which he just withdraws much like matt gaetz. >> all right, nbc news capitol hill correspondent, ryan nobles, thank you so much. let's bring in member of the "new york times" editorial board, mara gay, and msnbc political analyst, claire mccaskill. a few minutes ago, pete hegseth's mother appeared on fox news to talk about the email that she sent her son back in 2018 repeatedly accusing him of abusing women, which "the new

york times" published last week. here's some of what she said this morning on fox news. >> they were going through pete and his wife at the time were going through a very difficult divorce. it was a very emotional time, and i'm sure many of you across the country understand how difficult divorce is on a family. there's emotions. we say things, and i wrote that in haste. i wrote that with deep emotions. i wrote that as a parent, and about two hours later -- my husband tells me i should think through things a little bit more, but pete and i are both very passionate people. i wrote that out of love, and about two hours later, i retracted it with an apology email, but nobody's seen that. pete and i are very close today. in fact, our whole family is very tight-knit, but i think that we as parents, we always

parent. >> no, i get it. >> i mean, and that was seven years ago. >> there are allegations of sexual assault, excessive alcohol use, infidelity, financial mismanagement. as a parent, that's really hard to -- that's hard to hear. >> right. well, our job as parents are to correct. they are to speak truth, and i am a passionate person like pete, and sometimes emotional words come out. i don't believe any of that is true. any of it, and i'm here -- i wouldn't be sitting on this -- in this chair today if i didn't believe that about my son. >> well, so -- so much to talk about here. first of all, a mother who loves her son, a mother who wants to speak truth to her son as she said when she saw some things that she disagreed with. i will say a few things here

though, first of all, she attacked "the new york times" and said, well, nobody's seen that apology. "the new york times" asked her when she said there was an apology email to send them that, and they would print it, and she could have shown that apology email on fox news. she did not. she also, when she was asked how the "new york times" got this -- because she was attacking "the new york times," she also didn't come straight forward that when "the new york times" suggested that she had forwarded it to a third party who then obviously released it. i will say also a couple of other things. i talked to somebody very close to those making deliberations, with the senators on pete hegseth and they said, there are just too many problems. she talked about -- claire mccaskill, let me take through a

timeline of this because you've worked on timelines, you know, when you were an attorney. the problem with the letter where she repeatedly calls pete hegseth an abuser of women is that it lines up with the rape allegations from california. it lines up with the charges, the whistle-blower charges from when he worked for the two veterans organizations. the alcoholism, or the problems with alcohol lines up with his own fox news employees who are not only telling -- >> colleagues. >> colleagues. they're not only telling nbc's courtney kubi these stories, but also the trump tion team have heard over the past weeks or so, and we have heard it from friends that we know over at fox news. so i understand a mother trying to do what a mother would try to

do, but -- >> this is a really important job. >> this changes very little, and it changes very little because it's what i said about matt gaetz. the old midas commercial, you can pay me now or you can pay me later, like, pete hegseth can step down now or he can go to hearings where as steve deucy asked -- well, what do you say about those other people who are going to come and actually talk about these charges and this letter? and basically going to confirm all of the things that you said. well, i can't control that, but the senate can, and those claims -- the lurid details are going to be aired out in the senate, and that ends up being bad for pete hegseth in the long run. it ends up being bad for the trump administration, and just more distractions. this is matt gaetz all over again, whether republican senators personally like him, and whether fox news colleagues personally like him or not.

>> yeah. it's interesting to me that somebody would be nominated for secretary of defense that has all of this in his background, and listen. i have people i love very much that have struggled with alcohol. my mother struggled with alcohol. i've got to say this that there are two issues here. one is clearly this man has a problem with alcohol. you don't go out with your coworkers or your team that you lead and try to drunkenly get on the stage with the strippers. you do not have to be carried to your room by coworkers. you do not urinate in front of a hotel. you do not pass out in the van with your coworkers or the people that work for you. this was a man who was in leadership positions, who clearly was abusing alcohol, and what really troubles me about this, joe, is not that he might have an alcohol problem, but he's not even acknowledged it.

there are -- there are literally hundreds and thousands of people across america today that are waking up trying to stay sober today, trying to work very hard to maintain their obriety who have acknowledged problems with alcohol. this man has not so much even acknowledged that he even has any problem. we have coworkers at fox saying he was showing up smelling of alcohol for work very recently. i mean, within the last year or two they're telling nbc. so this is really a problem if you are going to lead the -- be the secretary of defense. many of the things he has done are violations of the uniform code of military justice, including adultery i might add. >> so mara, there is a -- we have reported on the show that some of these allegations came as a real surprise to the trump transition team. >> right. >> in part because they're a vetting process, their background checks process is substandard, it would appear. only now have they agreed to

work with doj to do more traditional background checks going forward, but this here with hegseth, if he were to withdraw, there's some growing speculation that may happen though he's making a last-ditch effort to save this, we should note, that ron desantis, the governor of florida, has been reported as being a potential contender for this post. what's your take of this dynamic? this might be a case much like the bondi pick, but it may be a seriousness, and easier path to confirmation. >> i think the broader context here is kind of interesting, right? which is that you have senators who are also making clear that they have no intention on being a rubber stamp on donald trump and his presidency, which is i think a good sign for the united states of america. of course, that's in more own self-interest, but they don't want to just be window dressing for the president, and they're kind of jockeying for their own

power in washington right now, and i think that's interesting. the other issue that you have is much like with matt gaetz, pete hegseth, you know, listen. i'm not going to stand in judgment of him as a human being. i've never met him. lots of people have alcohol problems, messy divorces, fine. the problem is that american voters who voted for donald trump, many of them voted for an anti-establishment figure. they weren't necessarily rubber stamping, you know, this kind of character flaw in the white house, and in the administration. so this isn't something that is easy to justify. i mean, i think this isn't a policy issue. this is a character one, and the more runway that pete hegseth has, the worse it looks. every day it goes on, there's a new story. there's a new allegation. we haven't had -- i don't know that we've seen the end of it, and frankly if your mother -- i mean, here's the thing, and joe just said this a minute ago, and

i have to agree. if what your mother is saying in an email is consistent with other allegations from other people, i think it's fair to say that more may come out, and you have to think that donald trump is concerned about that, and you don't know what's next, and also when you do have, you know, an alcohol problem, we all have people in our lives who have that, you know, it's -- he may not even be aware of what is about to come. >> right. >> so it's a concern. >> you know, and it was a concern -- i think i saw reports out of the "new york times,". it was a concern early on with the trump transition team that since he did not reveal the -- i think it was the 2017 rape allegation because he did not reveal the police report even after that, that he had -- there were two things that blind sided them. i think it was "the times" -- i'm sorry. it was "the wall street journal" that reported that the trump team was deeply concerned early

on because they said at that time, before all of this other stuff came out, well, if he didn't tell us the truth about that, then what else is out there? and now, claire, you have republican senators that are going to vote against him who were saying the same exact thing which is, again, pay me now or pay me later, right? >> yeah. >> take it now or take it later, that they didn't know about all of these things, and the fear is that it's just going to keep getting worse, and you obviously as a united states senator for several terms, you know -- >> a former prosecutor. >> you know what these hearings are going to look like. you're going to most likely have, you know, these whistle-blowers that talked about his drunkenness and his financial mismanagement and his getting up on stage in louisiana with strippers and him being had to be dragged off there, and all

the things you brought up. that on top of the california incident where the woman accused him of rape. you can expect people involved with that coming in, and again, as you know as a prosecutor, there is a big difference between prosecutors saying or police saying, we're not going to be able to prove this beyond a reasonable shadow of doubt. there's a big difference between that and somebody coming and testifying and talking about, this is what happened. there's the courtroom and the high standard there, the criminal standard, and then there's the standard the senators are going to live by, and again, this keeps piling up, and republican senators keep thinking, it's just going to get worse. so what -- how bad would these hearings look if he actually went before the armed services committee chrks committee, which you served on? >> yeah. i think it would be brutal, and keep in mind that the

organizations he was leading when all this behavior went on, whether it was financial mismanagement or the public drunkenness, these are organizations for veterans, and i think veterans that worked around him during this period of time were embarrassed by some of his behavior, and there is this sense of honor among veterans, that they want their leaders to be people that you can look up to, and all eyes on joni ernst here. she is very respected in the united states senate, both among democrats and republicans. she's particularly respected from her military background. she and i worked together on issues surrounding sexual assault in the military. she suffered sexual harassment as a member of the military. she knows the contributions women are making to the military every day, the lives that have been lost. we have a member of the senate who lost limbs in combat who's a

woman. joni ernst is really the key to this. if joni ernst says no way, this guy's not going to get confirmed, and i have a feeling that's going to happen before the circus that these hearings would be, and, you know, talking about these senators, joe, i think it's important on all these nominations to remember. there's more than just lisa murkowski and susan collins here that are going to speak up on these nominations. >> right. >> you've got mitch mcconnell who's not running again, who cares very much about defense and foreign policy when i comes to somebody like tulsi gabbard. you've got a dave mccormick who knows he's not from a red state. dave mccormick knows he barely won that race. he knows that in six years, he's going to have a battle on his hands if he is some kind of trump sycophant and votes for nominees that are not qualified. this would be a moment where he with the comfort of other senators could show that he is willing to be nonpartisan and independent. you've got people like cassidy

who voted to impeach trump. he voted to, like, not to impeach him, to convict him. cassidy wasn't afraid, and cassidy voted to, in fact, convict him. you've got jerry moran, rounds, thom tillis. you've got a lot of senators out there who know that some after these people are really not qualified and all they've got to do is get to four, and i know just telling you the, i just think it's not just hegseth. i think there are a couple of others. i think both rfk and tulsi gabbard are in trouble too. >> well, you know, again, lindsey graham, what was -- mika, i think what was for hegseth's nomination, what was so troubling about lindsey graham yesterday saying this nomination is a bit -- is in big trouble, is when he went on to say, and he sounded almost like he was channeling joni earnest. i'm not saying he was, but he said, you know, leadership starts at the top, and lindsey graham said he wants all young

women who enter the armed services to feel respected. >> mm-hmm. >> and i'm sure there are several men and women in the republican caucus and the gop understanding that this is just layer after layer after layer of

problems. >> yeah. >> and at the bottom of that, at the foundation of it is, he's a guy who was basically booted out of two smaller vets organizations. >> right. >> who's just not capable right now of running the most complicated, the biggest, the most powerful bureaucracy in the world. >> that's the problem. that, like, if you take away all the -- all this ugliness -- >> all the other stuff, right. >> this is not a serious candidate in terms of qualifications. that is -- that's just a fact. >> and again, the reporting does seem to be right now, that he is struggling right now, continues

to struggle based on reports. >> yeah. >> with alcohol, and just based on the reporting, that's obviously -- that's a personal concern. it's not just a political concern. >> right. >> but as claire said, it's a personal concern because all of us know people who have struggled with alcoholism. >> absolutely. >> and it's all consuming. >> so time now for a look at some of the other stories making more americans are currently looking to switch jobs than at any point in the past decade. the new survey of 20,000 u.s. workers finds that more than half say they are watching or actively seeking a new job. the largest share since 2015. at the same time, job satisfaction has reached its lowest level in years as employees report feeling more stuck and frustrated with their current positions. workers cite smaller raises, fewer promotions, and cost-cutting moves along with the return to office requirements among reasons for their unhappiness.

the streaming platform, max, will begin cracking down on password sharing starting next week. the warner bros. discovery ceo made the announcement yesterday saying the service will send little reminders to its subscribers next week about lending their login information to others. the move follows the recent crackdown on password sharing by disney+ and hulu. comedian bill maher says he is so tired of talking about donald trump that he might stop hosting his long-running hbo "realtime." that's what he told jane fonda in an episode of his toed cast which was recorded before the election results. >> i mean, i may quit because i don't want to do another -- i did trump. i did all the trump stuff before anybody. i called him a con man before anybody. i did, he's a fia boss. i said he wasn't going to

concede the election. i've done it. every week he accidently watches my show, and then -- low ratings loser. >> well, yeah. >> but i mean, i just -- i'm bored with it. >> he has a contract through 2026, but says he may quit. coming up, one democratic member of the congress says that republicans in his state threw fairness out the window and it cost his party control of the house. democratic congressman wily nickel joins us next to explain. you're watching "morning joe." i nickel joins us next to explain. you're watching "morning joe." everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ asthma. does it have you missing out on what you love,

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♪♪ welcome back. almost half past the hour. house democrats have managed to win the final uncalled race of the 2024 election cycle. republican congressman john duarte of california has lost

his re-election bid to his democratic challenger, adam gray by just over 200 votes. his loss means house speaker mike johnson will have a razor-thin republican majority with two members set to serve in the trump administration and former congressman matt gaetz resigning last month. johnson will have a one-seat majority for the crucial first 100 days of the trump administration. meanwhile, a growing number of democrats are pointing to the congressional map in north carolina as a key reason they could not wrestle back l of the house. in a new op-ed for the news and observer, democratic congressman wiley nickel of north carolina writes in part, this. north carolina is a state of balance, a true purple state. with our nearly 50-50 split between democrats and republicans, north carolinaens should be shown in power. but the jerry mandered election

map did more to silence voters in north carolina. they reshaped the balance of power in washington, d.c., costing democrats control of the u.s. house of representatives. and now, with adam gray's victory in california's 13th district giving republicans a bare three-seat majority in the u.s. house, it's clear that gerrymandering in north carolina tipped the scales in their favor, and cost democrats control of the u.s. house of representatives. congressman nickel did not run for re-election this year, citing his district as one of three in north carolina that were vastly reshaped by republican gerrymandering, and congressman nickel joins us now. >> so congressman dave wasserman had brought this up about a week ago saying, you know, people don't understand, but a rigged map -- not his words, mine, but a rigged gerrymandered map in north carolina was the difference between democrats

controlling the house of representatives for the next two years and republicans. you didn't go back to 2022, and it was democratic snafus in redistricting in new york state that actually put republicans in charge. so i'm just curious, how do we get past this gerrymandering, and how can states like yours actually reflect the will of the voters, the will of the people, and not the will of one party or the other like rigging the maps? >> well, thank you so much for having me, you know, i think the first point, really important from that opinion piece is that hakeem jeffries ought to be the speaker of the house right now. if it wasn't for republicans in north carolina rigging the system for my seat and two others, hakeem jeffries would be the speaker of the house, but the solution of course, is we have to get partisan gerrymandering. we have to take it away. we have to let the voters choose the folks that represent them in washington. i have a bill for that, the fair maps act that would require

nonpartisan redistricting in every state, but this is the thing that you'll recognize in correct me if i'm wrong congress, and in this case, it's cost democrats control because of a rare mid-decade gerrymandering in north carolina. >> so congressman, let's go a little deeper about the state of play in your state. obviously a tossup state, a battleground. donald trump did win, but as noted here, democratic won the governors race and now we have hotly contested seats in the house with gerrymandering involved. like, is there any recourse there on the state level to potentially try to rectify the problem you just outlined? >> north carolina is a state that's been gerrymandered by republicans for quite a while. there's not -- you can't look to our legislature to do anything. it's a gerrymandered legislature. the best hope we've is our courts. we just elected alison rigg riggs by just over 600 votes to the court. it's a 2-5 court. we have to win supreme court

races in north carolina over the next two election cycles before we can get a court back. that's our hope in north carolina, but nationally, you know, congress with a simple majority and the house and senate can end partisan gerrymandering once and for all, you know, and finally put this issue to rest, but it's the thing that's recking congress. least productive congress in our nation's history. people should be upset and they ought to point their finger at gerrymandering. >> congressman, i just want to follow up on jonathan lemire's question. what do you think is the right message to constituents in north carolina, to north carolinaens who over the next couple of years are going to kind of see this and wonder why their own kind of identity as a purple state isn't being expressed in washington. is the answer here to run more democratic candidates in races? is it to organize? what exactly can be done? there is a republican, you know,

legislature. so it's kind of hard to overcome is my understanding. what is your message? what should democrats be doing? >> number one, we should be talking about fair maps, getting rid of partisan gerrymandering, but the fact is republicans do it much more than democrats. it's wrong no matter who does it, but if you look at the districts that are heavily gerrymandered, north carolina specifically, where you get districts that don't represent the majority will of the state, north carolina again, 50-50 state, 71% of the seats going to republicans because of extreme partisan gerrymandering, but you look at the country. you've got a little over 10% of the seats in congress that are pretty heavily gerrymandered for democrats, but close to 40% of the seats for republicans that are heavily gerrymandered. the other 50%, you know, more fair districts, independent redistricting commissions in places like arizona and colorado, you know, the answer is going to something that applies to all states evenly, but the only way we're going to get change is if folks make their voice heard, and if you

are looking at why this has been a dumpster fire of a congress, and will be for the next congress too, the republicans will never be able to get their act together with such a small majority. it's going to be a mess, and it's because of gerrymandering. there's just no incentive to work together when, you know, less than 10% of the seats are truly competitive. that's where we are right now, and it's the thing that we've got to fix. >> that's a problem. democratic congressman nickel of north carolina. >> thank you. >> thank you so much for being with us. >> appreciate it. >> greatly appreciate it. >> you know, claire, it's such a great point, and, you know, people have asked the difference between when i was there and now, and so much of it has to do with the fact that when they started doing these lines by computers, and could really figure out how to sort it out and make fewer and fewer races competitive in the house, again, no reason to work with the other side. i will say though, talk about where we find ourselves this morning after of course, we find out that donald trump's going to start with a one-seat majority

in the house, probably for the first 100 days, and a senate that is proving to be a lot tighter -- the margin's a lot tighter than anybody expected after the election. i meerngs an, it seems to me we going to have to work together and some sort of unity government in the house especially, or nothing's going to get done. what do you think? >> yeah. i think all you have to do is look at the senate and you see what happens, when you have senators that can be defeated by the other party, and that's what's happened in the house. you don't have members who can be defeated by the other party, that can only be defeated in a primary, and that means all the political incentives are to go to the ends of the earth instead of the middle, instead of finding compromise. instead of finding lasting bipartisan solutions. they are looking for a viral moment to raise money off of so they can prove to everyone they are in the -- the further edges

of their party as opposed to a more moderate member, but, you know, speaking to north carolina, i mean, thom tillis, this is a really good example. he's up in two years. now i don't know what you guys think, but i have a feeling 2026 may be a little rough for the republicans, and a guy like thom tillis is looking at election in about ten minutes in the senate terms. he's in cycle right now. so what is he going to be doing over the next two years? is he going to be rubber stamping donald trump in a state like north carolina where you can't gerrymander a senate seat? where there are democrats that have won there, certainly in our recent lifetimes. so he's going to have to find a way to be -- keep his primary at bay and not have the trump machine come after him, but also appeal to those moderate voters in north carolina that are going to decide that race. >> and of course, claire, sudsen

collins also in the state that joe biden and that kamala harris won easily. there you have two senators obviously that are going to be up, and you're right. in an off year that usually is very bad for the party in control of the white house. >> yeah. and look. i think donald trump is going to overplay his hand. if these nominations are any indication of his mental state at this time, he's nominating people that really represent him overplaying his hand, and if he does overplay his hand and try to go to the extreme, then they're really going to have a rough midyear -- mid-term election in 2026. >> former u.s. senator, claire mccaskill, thank you very much. we're following a developing story in new york city right now. the ceo of united health was shot and killed earlier this morning in midtown, manhattan in

what police are calling a targeted attack. this is according to the "new york post". brian thompson was shot in the chest outside of the hilton hotel just before 7:00 this morning. "the post" reports a masked gunman was waiting for the ceo as he arrived for an early conference. the gunman then fled down 6th avenue. police are still looking for him. >> and jonathan lemire, i'm reading from the "new york times" he was shot -- yeah. on 6th avenue at the -- at the new york hilton, midtown which is only a couple of blocks from 30 rock and united health care of course, one of the largest corporations in america and this follows a story that, you know, in the "new york times" about a spaight of robberies and stabbings on the upper west side as well in recent weeks that have left people in that

neighborhood, nervous even as we hear reports of crime going down. they're still in new york city, a deep sense of unease across all five boroughs. >> no. we obviously are just learning about this shooting. we don't have anything on the way of motivation. yet the police are saying that they think it could be a targeted hit, that the gunman was lying in wait, that this was a conference that had been announced in advance. he perhaps knew the ceo was going to be there. that would explain why he struck at this moment, but we should also just put in context here. it's not just that is a few blocks from 30 rock. that is one of the major convention hotels in the city. it's heart of midtown. >> yes. >> and the heart of midtown and hold holiday season. the christmas tree at rockefeller center is being lit tonight. this was early in the morning, but this is a neighborhood that will soon be just swarmed with tourists. >> that's correct. >> in new york, mara, for the holidays, and, you know, and certainly, you know, very preliminary. we don't know a lot about what

happened here yet. it does appear to be targeted, not sort of random attack. that's per police, but certainly it is unnerving to happen at any time particularly in this location at this time of year. >> yeah. this is -- >> go ahead, mara. >> i wanted to say we are blocks away here. jonathan and i are blocks away from where this took place. this is the busiest time of year in the city, and so this does look to be targeted just from what we know right now. that doesn't give us any sense of comfort. it's also just a very bold move to shoot someone in broad daylight in the middle of midtown. this is stunning. this is just not -- this is not a normal story about crime in new york or any other city. something else is going on here, and i feel for his family. my heart goes out to them, and i certainly hope that the police are able to get to the bottom of this quickly. >> we'll be following this breaking story. >> terrible tragic story, and -- >> again, the ceo of united health care shot at the hilton on 6th avenue in new york city.

>> right as jonathan said, in an area that's going to be completely packed tonight as they light up the 30 rock christmas tree and reports are that the gunman, the masked gunman after shooting him fled on bicycle. >> all right. we'll be right back. we'll stay on this. >> all right we'll be right back. we'll stay on this

i am to diss use wife. >> he's dead. >> not to me. >> he took the best men with him. >> all year, suiters have been turning up waiting for his widow to choose a new husband to be king. >> coundrels are just here for your wealth. >> ago look at this island. the wasteman, thugs terrifying people. >> then leave me alive at least until i choose my husband. >> mother, we can't live with those savages anymore.

>> i will choose who when i finish my wedding cloak. >> that woman is making a fool of you, of us all. >> that was a look at the movie "the return." the film is giving a fresh look at homer's 3,000-year-old epic "the odyssey". it's on the return home after 20 treacherous years away from his wife, penelope. the film stars ray fines and julia benash as queen pe nelope. they're reuniting after their first performance in "the english patient" 30 years ago. juliet joins us now along with the director and writer of the film. thank you so much for being here this morning. so you went deep into history for the source material here. the scholars believe that this portion of the odyssey was written between 725 and 675 b.c.

why do you think it still has resonance today? >> i think homer has resonance today as it always had resonance. it's timeless understanding what it means to be human, what it means to be a husband, what it means to be a wife, what it means to be a son. what it means to be part of a family, what it means to go to war and come back from war. he's timeless. he's understanding what we are all about. it's wonderful, and it's surprising that not more people have taken the challenge to bring him again in front of contemporary audience. >> and juliet, this is what he says about working with you. he says she's fiercely intuitively profoundly perceptive. i love acting with her. i love what i receive from her as an actor. it's beautiful to work with her. i just have to ask -- >> it took 30 years. >> it's all true.

>> wait, wait. >> what can i add? >> how hard is it to work with a guy that is so grudging and handing out compliments to you? this had to be wonderful. a wonderful reunion, right? >> yes. it was great. after 28 years and we've done -- it's our third film together, and it was great to get together again, and have the joy of acting which is really listening, and opening your being, your heart, and yet having a purpose and uberto as a director and writer, he really worked on the script. it was just when i read it. it was just -- i was taken by it, and i just wanted to be in it, and the fact he chose me as the possible wife was even better. >> uberto, i'm wondering if you would talk about the challenges in bringing to life, bringing to the screen and modernizing an ancient text.

i'm sure in some ways it was fun because you had even more creative license, but many haven't tried this. so can you talk a little bit about that? >> well, i think first of all, it is homer, and i think in order to think about even attempting a new fresh style with homer, you have to be arrogant, and clearly i am. you have to be foolish, and then you have to have the luck and the good fortune of being able to work with talent like juliet and ray. who are not just unbelievably talent, but they are generous with their talent, and the issue as i was saying, he's modern because we didn't have to make him modern because he's timeless, but we did make some choices and what we focused on was on the family story specifically. this is an odyssey of the soul. it's not an odyssey of travels, of monsters, of gods, but it's of people like us in situations like we encounter every day. friends of ours who come back from war. i did a lot of reading about

vietnam vets and interviews, and the wives of vietnam vets and that reading very much influenced this fresh version of the odyssey, but homer is fresh, and he should not be left to the schoolteachers that maybe taught you badly. >> yes. i certainly took it at columbia. juliet, what do you hope this film -- this story, what impression do you hope it left with audiences? >> wow. questioning the purpose of wars and why we go to wars. questioning how long it takes for humankind to go back to their soul, to their home, their inside home, and the outside home. it's -- it's a reflection on -- on relationships in family and looking for your father. i think it reaches so many important questions, and also a

joy of the scenery because it's wide. it's large landscape, and it's the skies, and the seas and so yeah. the magic of the image of the film is also very important, and the combination of so many different actors as well, that i think is really nourishing, the film. >> a timeless story, and the new movie "the return," premieres in theaters nationwide this friday. juliet and uberto, thank you so much for being here this morning. >> thank you for having us. and coming up next, award-winning actor, david allen greer joins us straight ahead with a look it a his new series. there he is. we're back in 90 seconds. his n. there he is. we're back in 90 seconds the best presents. at the best prices. for the best pets. for low prices for holidays with pets, there's chewy.

this should have cleared up with the anti-biotics i put you on. >> oh, i didn't take them. i don't want to build up a resistance for when i really need them. >> like right now? life largely disappoints, mostly in big ways, but i find the simple pleasures always deliver. that's why every day at 2:00 p.m., i give myself a bar and eat it alone in the stairwell. some people smoke. some meditate. i slowly nibble through a peanut and caramel-filled miracle of american ingenuity. >> that was a clip from the new

nbc show "st. denis medical". the mocumentary shows the story of an underfunded and understaffed oregon hospital whose doctors and nurses try to treat their community without losing their own sanity. joining us now, award-winning actor, david allen greer. he stars as dr. ron leonard in the show, and he sat down doing bits for us, which we appreciate very much hitting the ground, ready to go. talk to us about -- good to see you. talk to us about the show, what drew you to it? >> well, yes. my coat is not natural fur. >> it is chilly in there. >> let's get that out of the way. it is a great script. mine, i an, i ask for. a great script. i have your young daughter. i have your wish list, and we give this to my team, and days later, they give you the script and they have 24 hours to decide. it was easy for once. for once, it was easy. >> you earned it. tell us about it. it's a steler cast.

tell us about how much fun it was day after day. >> i never worked with anyone, but for the first time in my career, i got, like, emails from nbc. we'd love you to do this. i'm used to going, hey. if you say no, we have other options. a friend of mine, anna gastire who worked with the show creators, sent me a note and said, we love this guy. you should do it. i was flooded with, you should do it, but it was always the script. i didn't know any of the actors. i knew the work of wendy. i knew the work of allison, and that's what i knew . i knew they had my back, and i trusted. that's what you have to do, right? trust sometimes? >> this looks really fun. it does involve trust. it feels like there's a lot of improv going on here. i would love for you to answer that. no? okay. i'm going to be wrong -- >> it's written. >> i'm going to be wrong about my next question then as well

because it also feels like in the best ways, a mix of "the office," "community," and "modern family". >> wrong. >> i'm wrong. >> wrong. wrong again. >> what color is your jacket? >> green. >> oh, i don't know. what kind of green? i don't know what you would call it. what would you call it? >> olive. >> olive. >> i'm going to go with olive. >> i'm going to call this a muted forest wilderness green. that's a new -- a muted wilderness green. >> good luck. you're next with questions. let's get one out of three right. go. >> listen. i think we are in a moment where lots of americans need a show to bring them some joy. can you just talk a little bit about that experience and what you're hoping viewers take away from this experience? >> well, it's comfort food. so there won't be a lot of talk about the desperate situation our health care system is in.

we allude to it, but our thing is comedy, entertainment, first rooted in a base of reality. a rioux of reality if you will, but it's not going to be, like, heavy political statement, but i think it -- we give that. >> right. >> with a lot of sugar. >> i can't wait to see it. >> some politics and a lot of laughs. >> it's great. >> you can all catch "st. denis medical". it's tuesdays at 8:00 p.m. eastern on nbc and it streams the following day on peacock. david allen greer, thank you so much. >> no, thank you. >> we appreciate it. >> mika, thank you. >> thank you. thank you for confirming the color of your jacket. >> thank you. all right. we're ending -- we're ending the show with a follow-up on the breaking news that we were covering earlier. the ceo -- >> such tragic news. >> the ceo of united health care fatally shot in the chest this morning outside the hilton hotel in midtown, manhattan. that is a couple of blocks away from 30 rock, a couple of blocks

away from the christmas tree and the skating rink, but also in a heavily traveled, heavily populated area, and of course, the hilton hotel is the site of multiple conventions at the same time very often because it's so large and so widely used. apparently a man -- a masked man was waiting for him outside the hotel, and shot him several times and then fled on 6th avenue eastbound on a bike. so sources are also saying that thompson was in critical condition. he was rushed to mt. sinai hospital, and he was later pronounced dead. there was some reporting this could be a targeted attack. obviously very shocking. >> and jonathan lemire, he apparently -- reports are coming out that he knew which door the united health care ceo one going into, saw him congress, shot him several times from a distance and fled.

so again, more evidence initially suggesting this was a targeted shooting. >> yeah. perhaps the gunman knew this conference was happening. the ceo would be there. you know, we can't speculate on motive, but this is part of the pieces of information. the police are passing forth, they do suggest that the gunman knew, you know, his target. this was -- this was intentional, and targeted, but it comes at a moment where we've noted that midtown, going to be flooded with tourists ahead of the christmas tree lighting and the christmas shopping season here, in one of the busiest stretches of new york city. straight ahead, msnbc will have reports," we have breaking news unfolding in new york. a manhunt under way after the ceo of united health care