hi there, everyone. happy wednesday. it is 4:00 in new york. at this very hour, we're following what now resembles an ongoing slow motion train wreck. that is pete hegseth's last ditch effort to be confirmed by the united states senate as donald trump's secretary of defense. we should tell you, it is a fluid situation. if any news breaks or changes while we're on the air over the next two hours, we'll bring it to you at any point. for now, though, the scandal-ridden former fox news weekend morning show host has been trying on capitol hill to persuade senate republicans that he is the man for the job. it is now a formidable undertaking, given the nbc news reporting we broke here on this program, less than 24 hours ago, reporting that said that, quote, as many as six senate republicans, perhaps more, are currently not comfortable supporting hegseth's bid to lead the pentagon as new revelations about his past continue to be made public.

it would appear hegseth is undaunted by that report and plowing ahead with what now resembles a bit of a hail mary with hegseth writing in an op-ed in "the wall street journal" this, quote, i have never backed down from a fight and won't back down from this one. complicating things, however, for hegseth is the fact that donald trump seems to have moved on. he's reportedly discussing replacing hegseth with florida governor and former trump nemesis ron desantis. trump has reportedly been, quote, floating desantis' name in casual conversations with guests at mar-a-lago. mark caputo at the bulwark reports that trump and desantis, quote, have personally discussed the possibility and this, quote, the talks related by four sources briefed on them are in their advances stages. and, you know, if you had to make the rounds on capitol hill knowing that trump is in the advanced stages of replacing you with somebody else, maybe you

would consider a media blitz with a friendly former fox news anchor like megyn kelly too. listen to him with her trying to clean up the other piece of reporting that dropped 24 hours ago. the nbc news exclusive that ten current and former fox employees say hegseth drank in ways that, quote, concerned them. that, quote, on more than a dozen occasions they smelled alcohol on him before he went on the air. yet this troubling behavior happened, quote, as recently as last month, and that, quote, his drinking remained a concern until trump announced him as his choice to run the pentagon, end quote. not sure how you begin to do damage control about that, but he gave it a go with megyn kelly today. >> you are not allowed to drink while on deployment, right? if you're in iraq in a combat zone, you're not allowed to drink. that's how i view this role as secretary of defense. i'm not going to have a drink at

all. that's not hard for me because it is not a problem for me. this is the biggest deployment of my life and there won't be a drop of alcohol on my lips while i'm doing it. first of all, never had a drinking problem. i don't -- no one has ever approached me and said you should look at getting help for drinking. never. never sought counseling. never sought help. i respect and appreciate people who do. >> some of his former and current colleagues at fox are saying to reporters that may or may not be reality. it is, though, where we start today with some of our favorite experts and friends. with me at the table, "new york times" editorial board member and msnbc political analyst mara gay. and joining us in a second, tangled up in midtown traffic, paul rieckhoff will be here, joining our conversation as well as political strategist and msnbc senior analyst matt dowd. matt, i start with you, because this has become, and i should

say the reporting that broke 24 hours ago from my colleagues at nbc news, i think between the two stories, 14 sources, all of them deep within hegseth's circles, there are no democrats who are saying things that they aren't saying in full view, but the people speaking anonymously are people who have had to get pete hegseth on the air while he smells like alcohol, they are people who describe how stressful it is to simply get a morning news show on the air. i'm a cable host, no one lives or dies whether i'm on the air, but not so with the secretary of defense. and what sounds like a president in donald trump who is so transactional, that he's moved on to option number two, which we can talk about desantis in a moment, but it would be clear that the only person for whom the gravitational pull of this

not working out isn't really abundantly clear is pete hegseth. >> yeah, it is great to be with you, nicolle. i hope your holidays were great. yeah, you know, as i listen to this and watch this, i think anybody with a rational mind would have known when pete hegseth got nominated, he had a sell by date. and just because of his background, just because of all the things you can track he said, just because of things that were very common knowledge to most people, you would know that this guy is not going to last long, which is the surprising thing about this initial nomination was if you knew that, i think donald trump probably knew that, i mean, he had to have known that, is that why you would nominate him this early and have a drawn out examination of him. that is what amazes me, it would be two months or more before he actually got a hearing. if you had known that about him, if you knew somebody had a sell by date, what you would want to

do is nominate them like right after you become president and push the senate to confirm him as quickly as possible, get through this before he sours. and that's not what donald trump chose to do. and so, i mean, this is now -- it hasn't happened yet, but it will -- if it looks like it will, it will be the third nominee before we even get to the opening of congress that is jetsoned at this point, all of this is because republicans have at least -- identified at least some line in the sand where they draw on people in the course of this. and also on a personal level, that explanation that he had about drinking, which i think actually has put trump over the top in wanting to go to somewhere else in my view, it is not the sexual assault stuff, it is not all the crazy stuff he said in his books, not all this outlandish stuff he said on air, it was the drinking. we have known if there is one

thing donald trump has personally talked about is that what happened with his brother and the drinking. and i don't think donald trump tolerates it. it is one thing donald trump, he'll tolerate corruption, he'll tolerate sexual assault, he'll tolerate all these other -- but he doesn't tolerate drinking. when i heard that, i thought, okay, that's the end of it. but his explanation is -- people that, like me or others, who have dealt with people in our families or friends that had a drinking problem, they all say exactly what pete said. no one has ever told me -- i've never gone to counseling, i don't have a drinking problem, until they get the dwi or until they get in a car crash. and what i'm hoping happens is this is pete hegseth's car crash or dwi, that, you know, he actually is able to, you know, go through a 12-step process and the first thing he identifies is i have a problem, i need to deal with it. but his explanation, anybody that has dealt with anybody or has gone through a problem with alcoholism watched his words and they heard them over -- those same words over and over and

over again until you hit a bottom somewhere, you're going to say exactly what he says. i don't have a problem, no one ever told me i had a problem until you end up in a jail cell, until you end up in a car crash. >> i mean, matt dowd brought this down to the human level, which is matt dowd's special gift. and at a human level, there is something, you know, it is our job to cover these institutions and to give voice to people who can't speak out, right? that the men and women of the military can't speak out, they can't go on fox news, they can't go anywhere and weigh in on politics. but in the interest of the men and women of the military, having someone qualified and stage and viewed by their peers, whether they're in a nonprofit, or whether they're at a news network, as capable is news and covering a human being and the kinds of things that human

beings own mother said about him i'll play the interview of pete hegseth's mother on fox news, there is something of a hostage take feeling to it, i can't watch it without feeling so uncomfortable that this family is in this position. it is something that dowd said there are human beings who are thrust upon the american public in the time of donald trump, who can't withstand the scrutiny because donald trump is so thoughtless in the picks he makes and i'm just struck today by how unnecessary all this is, that trump is going to appoint whoever he wants to any of these jobs. but the eff you to the vetting and the background checks and the system of his own -- i mean, gaetz and hegseth are born from trump's own refusal to abide by his own sort of ckamamie orbit systems. that's how we got here. >> totally. nicolle, i'm also glad you're not playing that video of his

mother because there is just part of you as a human, you can't help but watch this spectacle and feel sorry for pete hegseth and his entire family. and, of course, that is not what this is about. and i think it is really important that we remember that the reason he's under such scrutiny is because the president-elect who nominated him as you said has no regard for american institutions or for the military and if he did, he would have taken this vetting process very seriously before thrusting someone like pete hegseth and his entire family and history and all of his exs, anybody who has come into contact with him, into the spotlight for america to pick apart. and that doesn't look responsible. i think you have to also be asking, and i'm looking forward to talking a little bit more about this here at the table, what this means to members of the military. many of my friends who i grew up with served in iraq and

afghanistan, they are veterans, and they, i have spoken to them in rent cent days, they're look at this and thinking this man is going to lead us? i don't think so. is he even going -- this is really not appropriate. so it is really disrespectful, but i am heartened that these senators who are republicans have made clear they will not be a rubber stamp. and, you know, they received security briefings. let's remember that. they got to be thinking, you know, this isn't a reality show, actually. at the end of the day, we're talking about who is going to lead the military. domestic threats. foreign threats. this is serious business. they understand that. and i think, you know, donald trump is being reminded by them that he might be feeling good politically, but he's not walking into the white house with carte blanche. there are other branches of government. and this is a good sign, i

think. >> you said it, i sort of recoiled, but i was, like, you said, i think two weeks ago, these things are not preordained, these things don't have to happen, this isn't automatic. i have so little expectation that senate republicans will ever do the right thing that i really thought you were wrong on gaetz and on this. but it would appear based on nbc's reporting from 23 hours ago that six republicans are not comfortable with hegseth as secretary of defense. >> yeah. i said this is not normal. it is not acceptable. and it is not inevitable. and right now the key to all this, i think, is joni ernst. you asked me who is go to be key here. joni ernst is a combat veteran, more moderate than pete hegseth and a sexual assault survivor. he has to sit across from her and explain how he's going to effectively lead people like her, how he's going to pass her criteria to be the leader of military that has 200,000 women after he also made the policy position he wants to remove

women from the military which i said before they're not equal. he's saying to joni ernst you are not equal to me, you can't do the same things i do. now, if she votes no or comes out of this meeting and said she has reservations, i think he's done. and i hink trump will put desantis forward or her forward. i don't think any democrats would have stopped her and it comes down to joni ernst, maybe lindsey graham, but mostly her because she has influence among her colleagues and she can stop this single handedly. >> you got him using this language of a deployment saying i don't have -- i don't have a problem with alcohol. if i'm deployed, i won't take a drop. >> look, i mean, there is so much stuff out there right now, and there is probably more to come. this is damage control. >> did you know all this stuff? i feel like -- >> no, i didn't know any of these allegations, right, but he

is known throughout the community as a person who is political, who has become much more extreme, who said crazy stuff on tv on a regular basis, written crazy stuff, so that part is public and america is getting to know the guy that most fox viewers know. there is a large part of the country that didn't know pete hegseth and are now getting to know him. putin loves to see this kind of crap, the disruption and tumult. this person has to deal with issues like that, we need someone stable, balanced, moderate and trusted. it looks like he's not trusted by his own republican colleagues. >> matt dowd, you said something that is fascinating to me. that was this point about where the line is with trump. it isn't corruption. it isn't nepotism. kushner's off to -- pardon wasn't enough for jared's dad, he's getting an ambassadorship. another in-law getting something

else. sexual assault, allegations of rape and sex traffic fg king of minor, that's not the line. the line is where you said it is. that's not normal either. but it is fascinating and sordid and something to sort of keep our eyes wide open as we -- trump isn't president until the end of january. >> you know, this is something i don't think we spent enough time talking about exactly, you know. and i agree with paul that these things aren't inevitable as we learned in the course of this. i think we have learned one line, and i think we're about to learn one of the lines is if you can't be disliked by -- you can't be disliked by enough senators, i don't like you personally, a la matt gaetz. matt gaetz didn't fall apart because of the child sex stuff and anything like that, he fell apart because he was disliked by a huge amount of people in congress. that's what's his problem. another line for donald trump is you aren't good on television.

if you're not good on television, that would be a line, why he put a fox news host in a position of power at the department of defense. and so i -- i think one line, which i always thought with donald trump because if you examine anything, it is drinking. that's on the line for donald trump, a personal line because of what he went through and what his feelings were about his brother in the course of this. not always compassionate toward his brother as we learned when we read about this. the other thing i want to talk about, i'm the father of an army son who was twice deployed and the brother of a marine and the brother of somebody who served in the coast guard nearly 25 years. and one thing different than the defense department and paul can speak to this, that is different than any other department, it is that there is a -- the level of character of those who lead you is exceedingly important to how you behave. and so it goes all the way down, you know, to from private and corporal, how the sergeant behaves, how the captain behaves, how the lieutenant behaves, how the colonel behaves, how does the general

behave, all of those establishes a line and a -- that will be drawn of they can succeed. if you have the head of the department of defense that doesn't have a line on these things that are important in character in the military, sexual assault, lying, all these sorts of things, that is going to filter all the way down the ranks, not like secretary of the department of labor that draw d the same line of character. in the militaryin the rank and file in the military, the character of your leader infuses the organization more than any other operation in the country's history. and for 2 million people that serve in the military, that is incredibly important. and i think that's what people like joni ernst, why she turns. paul can talk about that. that ranking and your ranking and how you -- how you are as a

character is so exceedingly important, up and down the ranks in the military. >> paul? >> character matters. and i think there is two pieces that are maybe a bit underreported. number one, it is a violation of the ucmj to commit adultery. article 134 in the ucmj prohibits adultery. you can be punishable if you commit adultery. he's openly admitted he's done that. that's issue number one. number two, the thing with his mother makes me sad. because now she is performing for trump. there is an audience of one and his mother is actually very charismatic, also very effective. i wouldn't be surprised if she got nominated for something in the administration. to put your mother out there is something else that i -- i don't know what you have to do to put my mother in the chair right now. i would never do it. no job is worth putting my mother through that. and i have seen other family members have to go through similar things advocating for suicide and other things. this is on a whole other level. i don't know if that works for him and i don't know if it works for trump when he sees it on fox

today. >> how does this sound? >> i think it happens in the next couple of hours with joni ernst. it is up to her. unless more stuff comes out, which is entirely possible because we haven't gotten to january yet. i think the sign of trump probably leaking desantis is a test -- >> four sources. >> "wall street journal," a place he always leaks stuff. he's testing the weather and seeing how desantis is there and he has a backup plan. if he wants a masterful move, he'll nominate joni ernst. she'll go right through and the first female secretary of defense in american history. >> no one is going anywhere. so much more still ahead for us. how yesterday's failed attempt by the president of south korea could stifle his name's democracy and democratic government unfolding. our guests say america should pay close attention to what happened there as there are likely some similarities with what could be coming in the next trump administration. plus, another one of trump's cabinet picks giving republican senators some pause today.

that would be tulsi gabbard who has been tapped to be the director of national intelligence. we'll look at why and dig more into the reporting around her ties to strong men all around the globe. and later, the new york city manhunt is under way after the fatal shooting of a health insurance executive early this morning. the very latest on what authorities are describing as a targeted hit. we'll have all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. use" continuek break. don't go anywhere. eturn. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪]

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some news that happened just as we were heading to break, joni ernst who we have been discussing tweeted this, just as her meeting ended with pete hegseth. quote, i appreciate pete

hegseth's service to our country, something we both share. today is part of the confirmation process we had a frank and thorough conversation. we're back with mara, paul and matt. does that say anything to you? >> that's a glaring nonstatement. that is not an endorsement. that sounds like somebody keeping their powder dry and waiting to see what else comes out. >> yeah. >> that's what it looks like to me. >> totally. i looked at it on x and i was looking for the thread to say, is there more? does she have anything else to say? the reality is she's going to be having a conversation with the president-elect first before we hear anything else. >> and this could twist very quickly in the next couple of hours. >> matt dowd, humiliating his sycophants is his favorite game. and now that four sources are out there saying talks with desantis are in their advances

stages, it does el like this is treated as a shameful and unserious game on the part of donald trump. >> yeah. and he likes to head fake and dump anybody in the grease as quickly as he can and he thinks that it shows his own sign of power by embarrassing people and causing people to gravel and then, you know, slink away in the course of this. going back to our conversation, and this whole thing is -- this whole thing has become seedy and just the way donald trump is putting these people and their families in the public eye and then just basically backing away and not -- he won't defend them because donald trump in the end only cares about himself as we all know in the course of this, so anybody that doesn't serve a purpose at some point, he's not going to stand full scale behind him, which is kind of amazing for a commander in chief and a defense department nominee that you're not willing to stand behind. that is a telling sign of donald trump. i agree with what was said about that statement.

to me, i've seen 100 of those statements and the next statement you see is, i can't support this guy. that's usually the first one. we had a thorough conversation, and the next thing you hear is, joni ernst has problems. >> so, again, we don't know what is going to happen. i do appreciate everyone refusing to get ahead of the story. one of the things that has happened, though, is that four sources close to trump have floated desantis. let me just show you a little bit of what trump had said he thinks about ron desantis. >> ron desanctimonious has the poll numbers of a wounded bird falling from the sky. somebody like ron desanctimonious can't do it because he's owned and controlled by the globalist establishment who always puts america last. they keep saying, oh, i think desantis can do okay. i don't think so. based on polls, he's not doing okay with anything. the problem with ron

desanctimonious is he needs a personality transplant and those are not yet available. >> maybe rfk jr. is work on that. that's where we are. well, i think that governor desantis would most likely have a much easier time getting confirmed than pete hegseth. i'm glad i'm not -- i wasn't in the room when the governor had to do whatever groveling he had to do to even win back the favor of the president-elect. >> he probably had to give lara trump -- i know they don't play three dimensional chess, but this is hanging out there before our faces. >> yeah. listen, obviously, you know, elections do have consequences. and they just -- there are other issues with governor desantis. and it is not just that he happens to be more conservative than i am personally. i think that his policy in florida and his remarks about diversity, equity and inclusion,

about black americans, about gay americans, should give people pause when you think about him leading the american military which is an extraordinarily diverse institution. and that is not something that we do to be nice. that is, i think, paul will tell us that is something that makes the country stronger from a military perspective. there is evidence behind that and so i think, you know, some serious questions should be asked of governor desantis about just how he intends to run the military from that perspective especially. he's a veteran. you know, he would make a lot more sense in many other ways in terms of character than pete hegseth. but this is not encouraging to me either. >> there is also kind of a diversionary tactic thing here. gaetz is out of the way. he was taking all the arrows and

attention and they go to hegseth. if hegseth goes out, it is tulsi gabbard next. he's doing things like nominating a radical person for va secretary, nominating someone to head the navy who has never been in the navy, an under secretary of defense who has conflicts of interest potentially with defense contractors and also never was in the navy. he's flooding the zone and challenging the democrats, challenging the media, challenging the public to see if they can even keep track and he knows the holidays are coming and people want to check out, they're tired of watching the news and he wants to press his advantage. the next couple of weeks are key. people are tired. people are frustrated. many people are demoralized. but right now is when you need to stay most vigilant because right now arguably tempts have democrats have the most power and the flip will switch big time. >> we're not tired. what should we be focused on? put those in order for us. >> all of those. i just did. i talked about this earlier. collins at va is equally radical, a pastor, very

religious guy, he's also very loyal to trump, the fealty is what we're getting in all these candidates and they're a 1-2 punch. if you sent two of these guys to the department of defense and the va, you're talking about a massive piece of the federal government in terms of budget, personnel and culture. if i were him, i would start with those two places too and put my guys there first and try to knock those down because other things will be easier after that. >> this idea of shock and awe, matt dowd, is something rachel mad yes maddow and i talked about. it is something you hope in your nine -- i've been covering the trump story for nine years now, that we would be better at, we would be less susceptible to shiny objects and shiny balls. i feel that we're not much better at it than we were nine years ago. what do you think? >> i think we're not much better

in the democratic party is not much better. but i think donald trump has gotten better at flooding the zone. i think he did it a little bit and so it was first confusing and so let's say he threw three or four wild balls out and then people are trying to struggle and now he's throwing 12, 14, 15, 20 at a time in this. i think that's why i think it is important for us to focus on the here and now and not the hyperbole of what could happen, what might happen, but the here and now. and take them as importance one at a time. that's the justice department in my view was key because of what could have been done with it to people all across the board including people in the media, critical of donald trump . that was done and enough republicans stood up. the secretary of defense is another one. tulsi gabbard, being in charge of the intelligence services, in my view, is if we just sort of don't say all of it is bad, everything is bad and he's about to do a bunch of bad things six months, a year from now or

whatever, i think that is when we get confused. i think we have to focus on the here and now and take it, not 20 at a time, but one at a time, and in importance of order of what matters. and allow us to believe that donald trump got elected president and don't just oppose people just because donald trump nominates them. but if somebody is decent and they're conservative, more conservative, they may have different policy ideas, i think you have to limit your sort of critique to what really matters and really big problem in this and take it in order. >> i appreciate all of you for that part of the conversation. matt dowd, thank you for starting us off today. up next for us, what we americans can learn from the south korean president's dictator for a day attempt at governing. author and professor timothy snyder joins us to talk about that next. snyder joins us to talk about that next. i'm padma lakshmi.

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there he is. wherever i go they always ask “where's waldo?” ah, you found me. never “who's waldo?” sometimes it takes someone who really knows you

to make you feel seen. gifts that say i get you. etsy has it. hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat. south korea's period of martial law may have only lasted six hours, rejected thankfully by the people, by their lawmakers, and the media. but don't mistake a short attempt to seize authoritarian power with an insignificant one. if there even is such a thing. today opposition lawmakers in that country moved to impeach the or of the crisis, president yoon.

we understand as of this afternoon that impeachment vote could ultimately take place as early as friday or saturday. south korea's defense minister has resigned. but understand that while our allies navigate the after shocks of all of this, which was a stress test on the relatively young democracy, there are more than a few people here in the u.s. watching very closely. one atlantic columnist calls it a warning for washington, a cautionary tale on the eve of the second trump administration, writing this, quote, sometimes incompetent authoritarians botch plots to seize power. they still damage democratic institutions and norms in the process, and sometimes the power grab succeeds because presidential democracy is not protected by constitutions written with magical ink. rather they can survive its moments of greatest peril through the actions of brave people who cherish ideals more than power. as the late political scientist juan linz warned, not always in

plentiful surprise. joining our coverage, tim snyder is here, author of the best-selling books on tyranny and on freedom. so great to talk to you. i feel like every news cycle is now populated with your words of wisdom, pages from "on tyranny" are everywhere. i'm dieing to know your thoughts and what we should really process and take in as a citizenry about south korea this week. >> yeah, well, as american citizens, there is the bad news and then there is the good news. the bad news is that sometimes presidents who win narrow victories try to impose martial law. and we should take very seriously the probability that mr. trump will try to do something like that because he's been obsessively talking about it both in public and with his advisers for the last several years. so i think we have to take seriously that idea. that's the bad news. more bad news is that the people

immediately around president yoon went along with it. he had surrounded himself with intelligence and military personnel who he trusted, who were loyal to him and they tried to make this coup happen. the good news, though, is that parliament didn't pay any attention. and even better news is that even the people in mr. yoon's own party didn't pay any attention. and still better in s is that society as a whole treated this whole martial law adventure as we hope americans would treat a trump insurrection act adventure, no, we're not this kind of country, this sort of thing is not going to happen, this completely discredits you, we're not going to pay attention. in theory there was martial law in south korea. in practice there was the south korean people who reacted and protested and did all the things they were not supposed to do. and that made all the difference. the good news is you can have a president who tries this kind of thing and fails completely and embarrasses himself and humiliates himself, but only if you are ready for it, you take

it seriously and you know what you're going to do. >> when you look at what happened, it was instantaneous, right? the people were in the streets. undeterred, undaunted. parliament to your point, seemed almost to be strengthened by the people. do you see signs in these early days since november that that could be the case here if trump decides to take this tool out of the authoritarians' tool kit? >> i like that question. it is important for americans to be thinking not that we're better than everybody else, but to be asking, okay, sometimes people do a good job. what can we learn from them? and the lessons here are right away react, don't you take it seriously, but don't do what they want you to do. the opposition as well as the people who are supposed to be in the president's party have to act together, the people have to act, the labor unions have to go on strike, and interestingly in

south korea, the conservative press also resisted this move by a right wing president. those are the positive lessons that we can learn. here, like, we still have a chance not to confirm some of these people, like, the hegseths and the gabbard and kash patels, these are the people who are going to be loyal during an insurrection act evocation and what you want to do if you're a senator is to ask them this question. if we're in a south korean scenario and your president asks you for completely bogus reasons to void the constitution and use the military against american citizens, do you go along with that? and that's a reasonable question because trump has said he's going to do it and we have the south korean example. we're at a stage where we can think seriously about this and make it less likely. >> i mean, i think what you're raising is this flicker of hope and perhaps signposts, almost look a user's guide to our

democracy, where everything you have written, i think, was processed and internalized at the highest levels, but wasn't put to use, right? and now almost every single day there is an example of what you write about on page one of "on tyranny," obeying in advance. this happened at an alarming clip. and i wonder if you can just talk about how damaging that is for ordinary citizens to see people of power obeying in advance. >> first of all, i want to say, i love the idea of signposts instead of guardrails. i hate the metaphor of guardrails. they're not there. there are no physical objects there on some road. there isn't a road. like you say, there are only signposts, like there are hints from history here and there about what you want to do if you want to pave that road, if you want to create that road into a democratic future. there are some hints from the past. that's all there is. and here, there is a really

important hint. which is that those south koreans did not obey in advance. they didn't obey at all. they treated the whole thing as ridiculous and that's something we have to get through our heads. if trump tries the insurrection act, one possible outcome is he fails, is embarrassed and is humiliated. and that's the outcome that if you're an american who cares about freedom, you should be preparing for. you can't wait and say, well, maybe he'll try it and i'll see how i feel. not obeying in advance means thinking, how am i going to deal with the things when they come around and being prepared to defend the freedom of your own country. he's probably going to try something like this. you got to be ready for it. i agree with you. it is very discouraging when the billionaires bend the knee. it is very discouraging when republicans bend the knee. it sets a terrible example. at the same time, we all have a chance to say actually things like a military dictatorship are not something that i'm going to go halfway on. these are things i'll treat as being completely out of bounds and if he tries it, i'm going to

make him fail. that's the attitude you have to have and south korea shows that it is possible. you can make him fail and if he realizes that you can make him fail, which you can, he's going to be much less likely to try it. >> what i love about the frame is it is a total inversion of the fear of his extremist incarnation in 2.0 because i think you also write despair and paralysis. to come in and talking about retribution and what you do to your enemies is designed to make people feel paralyzed with fear. the extremism is what actually unites in south korea, conservative press, mainstream press, democratic press, and puts all of the citizenry in the streets, basically saying you got to be kidding me, we're not this country. and i want to ask you, i need to sneak in a break. i want to ask you what that looks like in practical terms on the other side of a break, if i

can get you to stick around. >> of course. >> we'll be right back. you to s. >> of course. >> we'll be right back

(sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) tim, you mentioned this, i want to pull this out and highlight this for my audience. you write this today, if trump attempts to invocation the insurrection act, would you take part, you suggest that as a question for any senator charged with confirming, and i think it is wise to focus in on the three, right?

gabbard, hegseth, and gaetz has moved on, as they say, to spend more time with his family. i don't even know what they say in trump's world. tell me about a framework that does emerge that could be practical for democrats or republicans in the confirmation hearings for people who would likely be -- who will likely be picked because trump used them as helping him to seize power. >> that gets to the heart of it. are the american armed forces and are the american intelligence services there to protect all of us from possible threats or are the american armed forces and the american intelligence services there to turn us against each other and to combat some of us in the name of personal regard to themselve as a personal leader or military dictator. that's the underlying question and i think all of trump's appointments all of them

including future ones, including possibly desantis, certainly kash patel, everybody in that field of intelligence and national security and defense they should be categorized. is this somebody who has national security or intelligence expertise. that's none of them so far. or is this somebody who is an insurrection appointment? thus far, the main ones have been insurrection appointments, ones whose tool kits, if that's what you want to call it, are about dividing us against each other. how would you behave in the south korean scenario. >> the clarity of that question, it is so simple. at no moment until right now has it ever had a partisan intonation and it is the $64 million question, are the senators on the side of the constitution. >> that's right. are they loyal to donald trump or loyal to the american people and to the democracy? and in some ways that has become the only question that matters. and i think, you know, looking at the case of south korea, the

question that i had for tim really is there anything to suggest that the american people and that our congress in january may react the same way? do you expect to see the american people in the streets immediately, peacefully protesting, with congress, which will be in republican control behind them and i guess there is no way to know for sure, but are there any signposts, i might ask tim, one way or the other. >> tim? >> yeah. i think we have to draw up the signposts. i love that question again, we're in this mode, where we should be, wait, other countries might be better than we are at certain things and what can we learn and can we get better? because so far it is the insurrection act is just thing we're frightened. the important thing is to make it something that, a, we

ridicule, whether republicans or democrats or whatever, because we don't want a military dictatorship and the whole idea is ridiculous, and, b, we think of how we're going to get around it if he tries to invoke it, right. people in the military have to think, am i somebody who is against my fellow americans or am i to protect my fellow americans? if you're a civil servant, same kind of question. i think we have to shift the whole conversation toward ridiculing it, thinking of it as a danger to everything that people on different political parties stand for, because if you do that, then you can get to the moment of normalizing it, making it tawdry, making it something that maybe you can resist because i agree, we're not going to do it automatically. we're only going to do it if we talk about it ahead of time and make it seem like a threat and out of bounds. >> and one thing about donald trump, one thing i know about him covering him for nine years, he hates to be mocked, he hates to be seen as any of those things. tim snyder, thank you for making time for us today, it is a

pleasure. mara gay, thank you for spending the whole hour with us. paul, we'll give you the last word on the other side. stick around. we'll be right back. word on the other side stick around we'll be right back. look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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secretary of defense right now. >> josh hawley, not clear who he wants as secretary of defense right now. >> nobody is clear. welcome to chaos. i call them president mayhem in the last term. i think that's what we're going to have more of. it could be ernst, desantis, cotton, somebody we haven't mentioned. this is going to be the new normal, constant chaos. i want to go back to tim. i thought he was so uniquely effective and clear. the dnc is looking for the new chair, he may be the best person for it. what he's saying is important. don't be scared, be prepared. that's what everybody should do. steel yourself for all the eventualities. in the military, we call it the most dangerous course of action. every american should be ready for every dangerous course of action. that way you're prepared for it. not caught on your heels and ready for whatever comes next. >> so important. we're going to ask you to stick around as this is a developing story. next for us, why tulsi gabbard's road to lead the nation's 18 intelligence agencies is hitting road bumps. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a short break. don't go anywhere today. ite hou short break. don't go anywhere today.

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he's not the only one out there who is unqualified and who raises whole questions like tulsi gabbard does. you really want her to have all of the secrets of the united states in our defense intelligence agencies when she has so clearly been in putin's pocket? that just has to be a hard no. >> hi again, everybody. in all of the commotion around donald trump's picks for secretary of defense, attorney general, fbi director, there is another pick that is equally alarming, but so far seems to be flying under the radar. that is the nomination of tulsi gabbard to be trump's director of national intelligence. tulsi gabbard is an army national guard veteran, former democratic congresswoman, chosen despite not having any experience working in any

intelligence agency to oversee 18 of our country's intelligence organizations. reporting in the hill finds that she is currently seen as a, quote, tough lift for confirmation. from that report, quote, a number of gop senators are skeptical about her foreign policy dealings and her trustworthiness and potentially heading the nation's intelligence apparatus. a new los angeles times column has comments from some republican senators, quote, susan collins of maine said of gabbard, quote, that's a nominee that illustrates the importance of a full background check. senator james lankford of oklahoma said he, quote, will have a lot of questions, it is really important we have leadership there that is able to support the intelligence agencies. senator john cornyn of texas gave a speech praising most of trump's national security nominees by name but left gabbard conspicuously off the list. an aide declined to say whether the omission was deliberate. so why is tulsi gabbard causing

such high level and special alarm? well, her past comments have often been at odds with the u.s. intelligence communities assessments. in 2017, she said she was skeptical that syria's president bashar al assad was behind a chemical weapons attack that killed dozens. and she visited him. she went to syria to visit him shortly after. she has sympathized with edward snowden and julian assange, both accused of leaking troves of classified information. and she has repeated russian talking points and propaganda, especially when it comes to the war in ukraine. take a listen. >> you hear president biden say this is putin's war this is putin's fault, it is putin who is the one solely responsible. well, the united states and some of these european nato countries are fueling this war. there are 25 to 30 u.s. funded

biolabs in ukraine. ukraine is in an active war zone with widespread bombing, artillery and shelling and these facilities, even in the best of circumstances, could easily be compromised and release these deadly pathogens. the only way that this war ends is through some kind of a negotiated treaty. that's it. that's been true from the very beginning. it means i think both sides, like in all treaties, will end up having to surrender some portion of what they want. >> meanwhile, on the global stage, russia's aggressive actions so much further than ukraine. the czech foreign minister said that up to 100 suspicious incidents could be attributed to russia. they include cyberattacks, arson, incendiary devices, sabotage and even murder plots. trump's pick for dni under scrutiny is where we begin the hour with some of our favorite experts and friends. former cia director and msnbc senior national security analyst

john brennan is here. also joining us, professor of history at new york university ruth giat joins us. and msnbc national security analyst frank figliuzzi is here. and paul rieckhoff is with us at the table. director bren, i start with you. we had a lot of conversations about tulsi gabbard. i asked malcolm, turnbull and others, about how tulsi gabbard would change the way other countries traditional allies would deal with us. what is striking about tulsi gabbard's nomination is that there has been no explanation for it by anybody. no one out there sort of knocking back any of what we just played, any of those clips that she constantly and inexplicably parrots

propaganda. do you with your contacts and experience have any idea why she's been tapped for this post? >> i think it is straightforward. donald trump who is following basically the authoritarian's playbook, you want to control the instruments of power. which include the intelligence community, security services, law enforcement, as well as try to do everything possible to control the media and so having somebody like a tulsi gabbard as director of national intelligence as someone who is malable in his hands, and really just, you know, demonstrates how foolish the appointment selection would be, the director of national intelligence is one of the most if not the most challenging leadership management positions in u.s. government to orchestrate the activities of 18 departments and agencies that constitute the u.s. intelligence community. as is pointed out, she is unqualified. she has no intelligence experience. she showed very questionable judgment in terms of things she's done, meeting with

president assad of syria, very sympathetic to vladimir putin. but also very concerning to me is the way she has been trafficking in these conspiracy theories. whether or not it is about the 2020 presidential election or the deep state, biden crime family, bio weapon labs in ukraine, even she's foolish to believe these things, you don't want a person like that at the helm of the u.s. intelligence community. this is donald trump's effort to try to control the instruments of power and to have somebody at the helm who is going to change or effect or limit the amount of intelligence and i think it is going to be quite chilling in terms of what the u.s. intelligence community is going to look like in the future and intelligence community that so many of our partners and allies

rely on. >> director brennan, having the intelligence agencies of the united states of america and by extension all of our allies because the allies share intelligence has always been -- maybe it is a mistake, right it was a norm, but it always has been viewed as a treasured asset that the president of the united states, singular access to and authority over, but the idea that trump is the first person who will ever become president, who has been charged with the felony of mishandling national defense information, the classified material that was stolen and not returned and stored carelessly at mar-a-lago, the rooms that were flooded that were tried to hide that alleged crime, the obstruction of justice that donald trump allegedly undertook to keep that material turns the whole thing on its head, right? we're talking about tulsi gabbard and i wonder if you think we should be talking about donald trump's record of mishandling national defense

information. >> i think that record is quite clear to everyone. when he was in the oval office, he showed this callous disregard for the importance of making sure that the country's secrets are kept secret. he would leave information out, share secrets in the oval office including with russians and others. look what happened at mar-a-lago in terms of the recklessness with which he treated this country's secrets, top secrets, highly sensitive documents left uncontrolled down there. and he also has disparaged the u.s. intelligence community and a lot of the u.s. assessments. he would take putin's side in terms of what vladimir putin says about not interfering in u.s. elections against the considered judgment and assessment of the u.s. intelligence community. i think donald trump wants to have people, again, in charge of these organizations, these agencies, who are not going to pose any type of threat to what he wants to accomplish and do and so, again, she's going to be a pawn in his hands and looking

at the other people he identified, kash patel, fbi, this just again demonstrates across the board that he has no regard, no respect for these institutions that really help keep this country strong and safe, and make sure that we're able to maintain the rule of law. >> i mean, frank, it leaves us sort of at the mercy of how many appointments the republican senators who for nine years have had no appetite for being any sort of pushback against things that donald trump wants to do that threaten u.s. national security, but punch bowl news is reporting that senators are -- let me read it to you, republican senators have privately discussed their interest in viewing tulsi gabbard's fbi file. that's according to three sources familiar with the conversations. this is done for each cabinet nominee, but the implication is that the documents could reveal previously unknown information about tulsi gabbard including possible foreign contacts.

what are the prospects of something comprehensive being done? it is also being reported by "the washington post" that the trump team signed an agreement to allow the justice department to conduct background checks on nominees and staff. that memorandum of understanding has been signed. how much realistically can be investigated on these picks ahead of a confirmation process? >> yeah, great question. so this is a crack we're seeing in the armor of the trump transition team, this agreement to allow fbi background investigations when he said he wasn't going to do it. i think that's an important revelation that the senate is having some impact here. but hope and crossing your fingers isn't a plan for national security. hoping the senate does the right thing, hoping the judiciary committee wants to preserve its advise and consent powers, that's not doing it for me. so, yes, i think the fbi needs to go into high gear. the answer is to how fast backgrounds can get done is very fast.

january 20th is a realistic deadline. i've been through it as a street agent and i've been through it as an assistant director. we will move hell and earth to absolutely get the background done. every agent in a field office, you know, as we used to say, oh, no, they nominated from -- somebody from my field office territory, everything comes to a stop and hundreds of interviews are done regarding that nominee. and existing files, and this may become important with regard to tulsi gabbard, existing files are scrubbed throughout the intelligence community. and if you're traveling to damascus and meeting with bashar al assad, there has got to be some intelligence community files on that and that will be inserted into the background report. >> i mean, frank, if you're handed this file and told, you know, the senate republicans, the senate, democrats and republicans, want to see the vet on tulsi gabbard, where do you start? what is the theory of the case? do you take the public

statements that are more backward? >> so, again, it is a dual track. do we have any existing holdings on this particular nominee and then do our allies have any existing holdings. it is not just us and our intel community that would be covering a trip to syria and certain phone communications and all of that. if you're dealing with people like this, particularly in russia, othered aer have sarl adversarial places, you're going to have coverage of that. that's in there. and then literally hundreds of interviews regarding neighbors, associates, is she qualified, are you concerned, is she capable of loyalty to the united states, do you have any concerns, ex-boyfriends, professors, all of it gets covered and all of it gets put into a very thick report, highlighting here are some concerns in the following categories. ability, associates, reputation, loyalty to the united states,

financial difficulties who is funding these trips that she is taking. and real quick, you referenced an account of her trip to syria. you got to read this account out there. there is a translator who says that she came upon these young girls who had burns over most of their body because they had been struck by air to ground missiles and she -- tulsi asked the girls, how do you know that assad did this to you? how do you know it is not isis? she doesn't even understand that isis doesn't have their own jets. they can't do that. so she's either ignorant or she's really swallowed the putin line with regard to syria. >> you're getting at something more subtle maybe, maybe less subtle than context. it is competence and fitness. what is the fbi capable of doing in that category? >> it is part of an fbi background investigation to do a deep dive into competency, experience, capability, reputation. all of that gets covered.

if you have enough people, you know, think about it, think about doing the interviews, i'm going to you about tulsi gabbard, do you think she's qualified to run 18 agencies, what experience does she have in that regard? i don't know what the answer to that is. she was a medic in the military. i don't know. she was a congress person. yeah, i don't know if she's qualified. i don't know how anybody can look at you with a straight face and go absolutely, she's the pick. >> i want to bring you in on this, ruth. i think frank's being nice or diplomatic. no, she's not qualified. and i think when you look at sue gordon, they were for donald trump until the very end when kash patel was tapped to be her deputy. gina haspel was never in the news. cia functioned. you know, a ton of authority in power as president of the united

states, especially over agencies like the pentagon and the cia. and i wonder what it means when someone like trump reaches for someone so flagrantly and obviously unqualified for a job like this. >> i would say looking at it from an autocrat mindset that the lack of experience and the lack of qualifications is the appeal. because not only as director brennan said that will make tulsi gabbard more malleable, kind of tool of trump, but what happens in authoritarian governance, there is the inner sanctum and these are people who are not appointed officials, they're family members, sycophants, extremists, fanatics, and they sometimes have more say or just as much say over the leader, especially if the actual officials are not experienced and would rely on others or can be easily

marginalized. and used. the other thing that is so disturbing about tulsi gabbard is -- has been observed. she echoes kremlin talking points, but she also echoes the things that partners of putin have traditionally said. whether it is overtly, like lukashenko in belarus or a case i studied in my book "strong men," berlusconi who parroted kremlin talking points and the main requirement of the putin partners or friends is to always blame others for the aggressions that putin has caused. so, you always blame nato or the u.s. or ukraine and that, if you look at the record of tulsi gabbard's statements, that's what she has done. so, she falls within this tradition of the putin -- call them friends, call them partners, but that's very -- that's very worrying if you put

this in a larger context. >> i mean, it is, just to sort of pull through the thread from the conversation with tim snyder, it is the piece that is perhaps one of the most obvious signposts of just how different trump is now than he was eight years ago. he was attracted to what he called the quote best people. and the people he described as my generals, war decorated heroes. in the case of john kelly, the most high ranking military person to have lost a son in combat in one of the wars in iraq and afghanistan and still be serving the government in the case of mattis he was -- he had his detractors, but he was universally respected and regarded as a professional person. the people who went to the cia and the intelligence posts were largely respected and experienced people. he has an aversion to those people. he has traveled the most distance. for somebody who doesn't have a

lot of new moves or new tricks, this represents the greatest shift in donald trump. he's gone from craving people who are impressive to craving people who are just as unimpressive. >> yes. but tulsi gabbard is impressive to him in a different way. she's great on tv. >> at what? >> as a communicator. she's great on joe rogan. she goes to the places that pete hegseth goes, she has a populist appeal, she sounds like a peace nick sometimes, but also cozies up with war criminals. the most important thing about tulsi gabbard and all of us have seen this evolution in the open, especially the veterans community, she can't be trusted. i met her when she first came to congress, we were almost friends, associates, we have seen this evolution, people say what's up with tulsi. that's a question that nobody can answer. i asked her on my podcast in 2019, what is up with assad? why are you apologizing for assad? why does that come from? now it is it apologizing for pu and autocrats around the world. so can she be trusted?

she was a rock star in the democratic party a couple of years ago and then an independent and now a republican. you can't trust her political affiliations here at home. is she compromised. is she compromised by her adversaries and that's what the fbi and the public has to get to the bottom of. >> real quickly, frank, is that something that can be done? >> it can be done. and i do think there is time to do it. and it is going to have to be one of these back room tarot line documents that is ts or compartmented level and certain senators get to see it, maybe it goes to senate intelligence committee and then to the judiciary. but, yeah. it has got to be -- we got to get to the bottom of this and i think the time is right now to begin scrubbing everybody's holdings with regard to what is up with tulsi gabbard. >> wow. director john brennan, ruth, paul, thank you so much. frank sticks around a little bit

longer. up next for us, a shocking murder, a few blocks away from where we sit inside 30 rock in midtown manhattan. a health insurance ceo shot and killed this morning by a gunman who is right now at large. police are working through the evidence and looking for a motive. we'll have the latest en that case next. also ahead for us, an assault on democracy, in a key battleground state. marc elias will be here to efrm explain what is going on in north carolina and why we have extremist lawmakers in that state to thanks for the republicans razor thin majority in the u.s. house of representatives. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. hi, my name is damian

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if you live in new york and walk a dog in new york or go to a playground in new york or work in midtown new york, it is all you have been talking about and thinking about and looking at your phone to learn about all day long. we here at this program are continuing to follow the developments and breaking news on the fatal shooting early this morning in midtown manhattan, a few blocks from 30 rock of 50-year-old brian thompson, the ceo of unitedhealthcare, the nation's largest healthcare company. according to the nypd, the attack was targeted. >> i want to be clear, at this time every indication is that this was a premeditated, preplanned, targeted attack. >> the motive for this murder currently is unknown. but based on the evidence we have so far, it does appear that the victim was specifically targeted. but at this point we do not know why. this does not appear to be a random act of violence. >> a manhunt is currently under

way for the suspect, the suspect shot and killed thompson in the back on a busy manhattan street in broad daylight before escaping on what nypd believed to be a stolen e-bike. the victim's wife telling nbc news that her husband had been receiving threats recently. let's bring in our coverage, nbc news national law enforcement and intelligence correspondent tom winter, frank is here as well. tom. >> sure, i mean, i think, first off, as far as the tree lighting occurring here just outside this studio in a couple of hours, no specific threat to that at this point. this is as you mentioned, the police commissioner, jessica tisch, her first high profile crime we have dealt with, making it very clear this is targeted, specific incident. it is very clear from the video we have been watching here today from the information that has been coming from police, both on the record and from people we have been speaking with, that this individual certainly had an

awareness of brian thompson's schedule, that he would be at this conference and that perhaps knew exactly where he would be coming from. and he was staying at a hotel on this particular street, this street where the shooting took place. and then was coming down the block toward the hilton which as you pointed out is four or five blocks from here. this still image gathered from a prior to the shooting we're told, could perhaps provide some more information as to who this individual is, probably not enough for the nypd's facial recognition unit, but a couple of things are going to happen here. they're going to go back, every single store, every single venue, every single everything that perhaps this person crossed from a video standpoint, they will get that video and go to every single store. try to find out was there a moment where he drops the mask, is there a moment they get something off of a backpack that might go to the name or the brand of the backpack, can they trace that information back? they'll do all of that work. that's probably already frankly

been done. from there they have a couple of different options. if they get a better shot of his face, the nypd facial recognition unit can go to work on that. if they get any other sort of information, they can feed it into das, the domain awareness system. we think of detectives calling back, working the phones, they're on the phone all right, they're on their nypd issued phones punching this information in. these databases, that information is handy right there on their phone and it is amazing how much work can get done. work, by the way, that the current new nypd police commissioner jessica tisch put in all these systems she was largely responsible for as one former nypd officer said to me, taking us out of the stone age. these investigations tend to move a little bit faster, a little more thoroughly, and the nypd detective bureau has a lot of experience with it. it has been a long time, i was talking to terry monahan, the former chief of department for nypd, a long time since i can remember high profile murder in midtown, certainly much further back you would have to go to find one that hasn't been

solved. i think they're getting good leads and will that yield a name, if it gets a name, then arrest, that's something we'll track in the next couple of hours and days. >> can you take us through what you understand to have happened this morning? >> sure. so this individual brian thompson who leaves behind not just his wife who you referenced, our colleague david lee spoke to, but also two children. he leaves his hotel, sometime before 6:45 a.m., walking down 45th street -- 54th street, excuse me. and he's leaving a mare riott affiliated property, luxury property, coming toward the hilton, on one particular street, if it sounds like you're familiar with it, you don't work at nbc news and not know these streets and these hotels. he's walking down the street, this individual had been waiting in that general area for a while, and then closer to the time when he's arriving there, he is actually right near this hotel where thompson is supposed to speak at approximately 8:00 a.m. this morning, along with

his colleagues, as part of a large conference this is something that was -- something already planned, there are shots that are fired obviously, he's struck in the back, he's struck in the leg. at some point there is an issue with the gun, this person clearly proficient with the weapon because he's able to get the gun back and working again. there is a suppressor it appears at the end of the gun, that's something they're looking at that would muffle the sound, muffle any sort of perhaps reaction in the area. so that's something that they're taking a look at as well. and then he flees going between 54th and 55th street in an alley way. in some of these midtown blocks you can get through the middle of the block in through various public spaces. he's using one of those public spaces, they recover a cell phone on 55th street, he jumps on an e-bike, scoots eastbound, makes a right toward 6th avenue, up to central park. that's the last known location that police are telling us. there is a lot of surveillance video in and around central

park, it is not a blanket amount of surveillance video, so where exactly they lose him, if they do lose him, well, we just don't know. for understandable reasons, they're not telling, they want to have the ability to keep some facts in their pocket. >> frank, your thoughts on all this. >> look, i harken back to my days after the fbi, and big time corporate security served as a corporate executive for what was a fortune 10 company. i think this opens our eyes to the threat that is big time ceos face in the healthcare industry where decisions are made every day that upset people, we're not covering this, we're not getting your meds that your doctor prescribed, we're not covering that experimental surgery. and to find that this ceo, according to nypd, did not have a security detail on him, even though he was just caught crossing the street, to an investors meeting, is quite surprising, particularly with threats. one thing they're going to do to police is work with corporate security at unitedhealthcare to determine how many threats have

been coming in, who is a repeat offender with regard to threats, are there letters? these people leak their intentions. are there letters written to the company threatening the ceo, can fingerprints be taken off those letters and matched to fingerprints somewhere around the crime scene? you hear about the jam of the weapon and he had to eject three rounds to clear the weapon, those may have prints. i have seen partial prints taken off of bullets before. all of that getting done, but corporate security is a really essential thing for investors. this was a publicly announced investor meeting. i looked it up after the incident, i googled it, boom, there it is, where it is, what time. >> we'll continue to turn to both of you. thanks for sticking around and spending time with us. when we come back, switching gears back to politics, with all the races called, the incredibly historically slim shrinking gop margin in the house of representatives, how we got here

and why were it not for republicans in one state we would be talking about potentially a speaker hakeem jeffries. marc elias is our guest. don't go anywhere. em jeffries marc elias is our guest. don't go anywhere. ♪♪ over 600,000 usps employees working in sync to ensure everything sent on its holiday ride ends with a moment of joy. ♪♪ the united states postal service.

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i am forever ditching regular coffee. the tattoo artist drank a little too much coffee, and then he crashed, hard. so now maybe i do have some regrets. do not get a tattoo if your tattoo guy does not drink everyday dose. everyday dose coffee, functional coffee for all the energy without the jitters or crash. it's kind of the same right, do you notice it? you do? okay. nearly a month after election day, we finally know exactly what the house of representatives will look like come january. the house will have 220 republicans and 215 democrats. except it won't because two

republicans elise stefanik and mike waltz will be joining the trump administration. so that brings it down to 218 for the republicans and 215 for the democrats. but, wait, one more correction, it is only 217 republicans because matt gaetz quit his seat the nanosecond donald trump tapped him to be the country's attorney general which, of course, failed spectacularly almost instantly but did spare gaetz the embarrassment of an ethics investigation at least for now. so, come january 2025 it will be a one seat majority for speaker mike johnson. that's what he has to work with. who does very to thanks for having that at all. the republicans in north carolina because if it were not for the hyperpartisan gerrymander enacted by the republicans in that state, he may not even be the speaker. north carolina voted for donald trump by a little over 3 percentage points this november, but it had three congressional seats flip to the gop as a

result of the radical new republican-leaning congressional map in that state. which the brennan center describes this way, quote, along with texas as one of the two most extreme congressional maps currently in place. joining our conversation, founder of the site democracy docket, marc elias is here. tell us about north carolina. >> yeah, so, first of all, worth noting that texas was also a republican gerrymander, so both of the two states were gerrymandered by republicans. north carolina is a special case because north carolina had engaged in an extreme partisan gerrymander before. and as a result of the lawsuit that my law firm brought, along with others, we struck that down as violating the state constitution, banning partisan gerrymandering. what you had as a result was a fair map, a map that was drawn that represented the diversity and the partisan balance of north carolina. what happened next is that

republicans took control of the state supreme court. and as soon as that happened, they -- the legislature passed a new gerrymandered map and more extreme gerrymander than before. ran that up to the state supreme court and the supreme court reversed the precedent that had been set the year earlier and said, no, it is fine when republicans do it. and to be clear, while it is true that donald trump won the state by three points, it is also true that a democrat wouldn't governorship. and won some other state wide offices. this is really a 50/50 state and, you know, but yet when you look at the map for congress and the state legislative map, they are extreme republican jerry manders. >> how do we fix it? >> well, so, look, one of the most underreported stories in america right now is a recount that is going on in the state of north carolina. allison rigs, one of the two democratic members of the state supreme court, is up by a few hundred votes. there has been a machine

recount, she's still up. the republican candidate has sought a full hand recount, that's fine with me. but to be clear, the republican party and that republican candidate have filed various motions to disqualify, wait for it, 60,000 voters. 60,000 voters they want to disenfranchise to swing the outcome of the election. it is a national disgrace. i'm glad you're covering it. too few members of the media are covering. >> marc, let's stop right there. let me just for our viewers to understand what you're saying about the extreme gerrymandering, to understand what that means, three democrats, retired from the house, in 2023, they won by three seats. all three of those seats that they vacate are won by republicans more than 17 points.

so gerrymandering, we're talking about choosing your voters, right? they went in and they chose their voters. and, you know, stacking the deck, cheating basically. and i wonder how you -- especially in light of all the conversations we had for the last four years, how you make sure no one looks away. we're in this razor thin country, countries appears to have voted in a mirror image of itself, half for trump, half for harris. little more than half for trump because he won the popular vote. and the electoral college. but how do you make sure that what the republicans are doing on the margins is not just counter legally by what you're doing but people understand why they're doing what they're doing. >> so the first thing is we have to be talking about this constantly. we can't just talk about it in the years in which redistricting is done every ten years. so the fact that we're talking about it today is really a

testament to you and the importance of talking about this all the time. and also talking about it as the practical consequences that it has for america. the second is we need to make sure the people understand the facts. one of the big lies that republicans tell, which, by the way, they say, but everybody gerrymanders. here are two states that don't. how about california, which has a citizen commission, and new york, which has a state constitutional provision that was put in place to prevent against partisan gerrymandering. that means in democratic controlled states, we see this throughout the country, they enact reforms to prevent against gerrymandering. if you look at states like north carolina or ohio or texas you see republicans do the opposite and in ohio, republicans defeated a ballot measure that would have prevented their partisan gerrymandering. it is important that all parts of the media speak out about this year in and year out and talk about what the consequences are like here, the fact that republicans will have control of the house rather than democrats

and think about what the difference of accountability for donald trump would look like if democrats had a one-seat majority. >> it just feels like so much of the work of being active citizens is so dangerous and threatening to republicans. if you just go by what they're doing, right, if you just go by how they have ruled for the last four to eight years and i want to ask you about something tim snyder said on this program the last hour, he talked about having a little bit of -- he didn't use the word mirth but attached it on to it, a little bit of bemusement. what trump fears most is to be called out as ridiculous. in the same way that the south koreans viewed the invoking of martial law as ridiculous and did not back down and did not feel threatened and took to the streets immediately and then parliament in some ways you could argue responds to the citizenry, out in the streets, unafraid by the declaration of martial law. i wonder if you think there is

something instructive about their defense of democracy and their view that this declaration of martial law, this is not the country they want to live in. how do we apply that outrage and that universality and that line being drawn by the citizens to which then the congress has to respond to issues around democracy and voting? >> yeah, so, i think two things. first of all, i recall that shortly after donald trump got elected in -- took office in 2017, i got a stern call from someone who i worked with saying is it true that you referred to donald trump as a clown? and i said, well, i don't remember calling him a clown, but, sure, like, he is a clown, so if i said to the media he's a clown, then, yeah, like i embrace that. you're right, donald trump hates being mocked and he hates being treated for what he is, which is a buffoonish character not worthy of the office. he wants to be feared and what he doesn't want to be is laughed at. so people oftentimes see me on your show and they're, like,

marc, you seem optimistic and upbeat. i'm not optimistic. i just understand donald trump for what he is. and the same is true for the rest of his marry band of misfits. there are people quietly scared and people who are publicly scared. there are a lot of people who engaging in anticipatory obedience. i posted on social media kash patel saying i'm an enemy of the republican party and then he says in the interview of the republican party because i win voting rights cases, i help defeat republican voter suppression, and so rather than being afraid of that, rather than being scared about that, i'm proud of that, i'm proud about the fact that i stand up for democracy and i win. and we need everyone to be a little bit courageous. it is okay to be scared. it is okay to be nervous. i'm nervous. i'm scared. but, you know, everyone needs to be a happy warrior, a little bit of courage in this fight. if we do that, and we don't back down, then the bullies go away

because what they count on is everyone is going to put their tail between their legs and scurry off. if you don't do that, then they are the ones who will back down. >> i -- this wasn't our plan, i appreciate you for sticking around. i have one more question for you. have to sneak in a quick break. will you come back with us on the other side? we'll be right back with marc elias. on the other side we'll be right back with marc elias. still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief with rinvoq. check. when flares tried to slow me down,... ...i got lasting remission with rinvoq. check. and many were in remission...

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marc, i wanted you to stick around. i want to ask you about the news that we left with today, a

faltering nomination of pete hegseth less than a week after -- maybe more than a week after the nomination of matt gaetz went away. fell apart. and it is this, there is a tendency to try to organize trump's chaos in ways that we can adapt to it, right. if i think it has led to things that are not productive. despair or being disappointed. i think there is a remarkable moment to simply hold up a mirror and say, over and over again, these things are not inevitable. matt gaetz is not inevitable. kash patel is not inevitable. pete hegseth is not inevitable. what trump banks on is there is so much, you know -- in the system, people throw up their hands and say i'll be back in four years. i think what happened and what is amazing that it -- not even president, didn't take three weeks for the thinness and the shallowness of trump 2.0 to

reveal itself. i see all these little lights of things that i didn't see in the first term. senate republicans saying no thank you. six senate republicans telling nbc news journalists i'm a no on hegseth. what do you see? >> i completely agree. first of all, i think there has been a lot of despair that has gone too far. people have trashed, for example, or criticized the resistance that you saw come out of the 2016 election. let me tell you what the resistant movement meant. it meant that the affordable care act survived. people forget that. donald trump campaigned and tried hard to get rid of the affordable care act and people still have their health insurance in part because of what the resistance brought. people forget the success that we had in the 2022 midterm elections built on the energy of the grassroots resistance movement. people forget about all the court victories that were had to prevent donald trump from doing the worst things he wanted to do as a result. so, a lot of things worked after

the 2016 election. for 2020 we need something different, something that is more permanent, something i've written about and something we need. we're starting to see the thinness of donald trump. he is a buffoonish character that can only succeed if people are afraid and people give up. and he is counting on people giving up and people being afraid. and every one of us needs to stand up and say i am not going to back down. i will not obey. i'm going to stand tall and i'm going to fight you every step of the way. and when we do that, you're right, we have seen one nominee already pull out, we're kely to see a second one drop out if reporting is correct, and it may not be the last, by the way. there are a lot of these other nominees, tulsi gabbard or kash patel, who, you know, republicans have to stand up and defend. and it is important that those of us who are in this opposition, we are proudly in opposition and we are happy warriors, we are optimists that we will fight hard and we will

win and we won't win every time, but we will win more than people think and when we do that, democracy will survive. >> marc elias, great to talk to you. thank you for sticking around longer than we had asked you to. great to see you. >> anytime. another break for us. we'll be right back. >> anytime. another break for us we'll be right back. hi, i'm susan lucci. you may know me from my many years on television. i never thought about heart disease until i had my own heart event. i felt this slight pressure on my chest, just slight. i thought, oh, it's nothing. it'll go away. i didn't get it. i did not get it. but, a few days later, while shopping at a boutique, that pressure returned much stronger.

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heart disease is america's number one killer, and your support now can help save your life or the life of someone you love. give $19 a month with your credit card and we'll send you this special t-shirt that you can wear to show that you are helping save lives. please listen to your heart. the only reason i'm here today is because i did. so please call the number on your screen or go to helpheart.org now. join me as a monthly donor today and help save even more lives. thank you. at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may

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manufacturing. other than trade policy, navarro was one of the most prolific election deniers in 2020 and spent four months in federal prison for defying a subpoena from the house select committee. another break for us. we'll be right back.