would love to see you all there. that is all in on this thursday night but alex lehnert starts right now. good evening, alex smith >> i am thrilled, i am very excited for this book torpid very excited at some point to be asked to do a book of that with you. >> it's going to happen.

it does sound awesome. awesome job in advance, i have already preordered six copies for everyone in my family. >> you are the best. >> i love you. >> thank you, alex, love you, too. >> thank you, my friend. today started with great news, e really great news for any foreign entities that would like to shovel cash at president-elect donald trump point the new york times reports today that the trump da organization is planning to operate under a different set of ethics rules than it did during trump's first term in the white house. specifically, the trump organization wants to continue making foreign deals, despite the fact that trump will be the president of the united states. the times reports that in the months leading up to election day, the trump organization's de facto leader, eric trump, was busy striking up real estate deals in vietnam and saudi arabia and the united arab emirates.

and now, eric trump reportedly has his eyes set on more deals in other countries, in the middle east and latin america and asia. what could go wrong? now, i know we are in is slowly boiling pot here. after all, trump is arty selling guitars and bibles and gold sneakers and silver coins and $10,000 watches and nft trading cards and cryptocurrency and and and and and and. the list of ways to funnel money into donald trump's pockets just goes on and on and on. but this new reporting from the times shows that even though trump is about to become the most powerful person in the fu free world, he and his companies are still open for business. and we are already just seeing just how problematic that is. this week, the washington post reported that chinese businessmen justin son invested

$30 million in trump's chris no currency. the math of all of it is a little complicated, but this effectively means that a chinese businessman just pumped more than $22 million of profit into trump's company. and, okay, i mean, maybe justin son thinks trump's cryptocurrency is just a great advancement, but for all intents and purposes, justin also just handed the trump family $22 million, and the head of that family, president- elect donald trump, but oalso very helpful to justin. that's because justin sun is under investigation by the security and exchange commission for allegedly manipulating a different cryptocurrency market. and yesterday, trump chose an s.e.c. chair mpwho is famously pro- rypto. so, trump's of new s.e.c. chair code, if you wanted to, or if trump directed him to -- trump's a new s.e.c. chair could dismiss the investigation into justin sun

entirely. now, whether or not sun offered trump $22 million in profit will actually influence anything or even help justin sun at all, that is unknowable at this point. le but these kinds of conflicts are precisely why presidents do not do business like this. it is impossible to know where e trump the business ends and where trump the president begins. and this one chinese billionaire buying trump's cryptocurrency is just the example we have today. next week, eric trump, who k, again is now the de facto leader of trump's businesses, he is headed to abu dhabi to headline a cryptocurrency conference. eric trump is literally traveling to another country to pitch the trump cryptocurrency to international investors. are you a rich person from a foreign country? would you like the opportunity to put a lot of money into the pockets of the american president? well, you're in the right place. trump's second term is looking

very much like a billionaires playground. yesterday, trump picked former m georgia senator kelly loeffler to run the small business administration. why kelly loeffler for that role? well, one big erreason might be that kelly loeffler and her husband, her husband who literally owns the new york stock exchange, they collectively donated more than $5 million to trump's re- election effort. and kelly loeffler is in good company, she is now the ninth major trump donor to land a top spot in the the trump administration. to put all of this in perspective, president biden's cabinet had a net worth of about $120 million, nothing to sneeze at, but $120 million. just kelly loeffler and her husband alone are worth about $1.1 billion, and that is billion with a b. if you just count positions that need senate confirmation, trump's cabinet is worth fiabout $10 billion. again, president biden's cabinet worth $120 million.

but if you include roles that ha don't require senate confirmation, like elon musk's role leading the department of government efficiency, if you include those positions, well, the net worth of trump's cabinet skyrockets to more than $340 billion. donald trump is setting up a government quite literally run by billionaires. and today, two of those billionaires, elon musk and vivek ramaswamy, went to capitol hill to meet with republicans in congress about the new department of government efficiency. republican speaker of the house mike johnson described the meeting as a brainstorming session, ideate in all the ways they could got the federal government next year. one idea elon musk floated was getting rid of all tax credits, including tax credits for electric vehicles. musk has ound here, previously said that those tax i credits help his competitors more than they help his car r

company, tesla. so, yeah. why should the government do that? we are entering an era of government, not just run by billionaires, but for billionaires. government for the swamp by the swamp. >> we are all excited, i know you're all excited that elon musk and vivek ramaswamy have joined us today. this is an important day, it is the beginning of a journey. you have heard what doge is all about, the department of government efficiency, it is a new thing and this is a new day in washington and a new day in america. let's joining me now are melissa murray, a professor at nyu school of law, and philip, national columnist for the washington post. folks, thank you for being here. you know, philip, we talk a lot about what donald trump has planned for a second term, and there are some big statements and proclamations, but a lot of question marks, one thing that seems quite certain is that a

for sale sign is hanging outside the white house, just in terms of the business people that he has brought in, who can make very, very lucrative decisions for themselves helming government agencies. can you talk a little bit about the way in which this is all happening in broad daylight? >> i think something that is coming into focus -- it was very obvious over the course of the campaign, is that something shifted, and maybe it was the fact that he tried to overturn the results of the 2010 election and got away with it, maybe it was the fact that he took in millions of dollars, ar his private company did, the democrats in the house put out a report detailing the millions of dollars that the trump organization took in from foreign governments when he was president, but he is unabashed in a way that he wasn't eight years ago. back then, yet least paid lip service to the idea that presidents don't do these things, but in the same way everything else got thrown out

the window, that got thrown out the window, too. he's not even saying he's going to pretend to do these things, he is saying by the guitars, by the bibles. [ inaudible ] you know, the idea that past presidents would have been limited, because they don't want the impressions that you get from the sun deal where you getting all this money and people are questioning your ethics, he doesn't worry about that. everyone is questioning his ethics anyway with good reason, so why worry? >> why bother and just make the catch. jimmy carter, i think, but is peanut farming into a blind trust. the peanut farm is not the same thing as the trump organization. yes. remember when we talked about the closet back in trump 1, and it was like you can't have a hotel where foreign dignitaries are going to stay and spend money, because that might be the same thing as funneling money into donald trump's pockets. that entire debate has gone the way of the dodo bird. there doesn't seem to be any legal implications for any of this. >> again, the first term in ministration was kind of a boom for constitutional law professors, we got to look at all provisions that have previously gone unobserved, but there were a number of lawsuits

filed under the cause is abuse apparently conflicts of interest with donald trump's business dealings and his role as president and the prohibition in the constitution that you cannot receive benefits from foreign entities nor domestic entities when you're serving as president.he it is the original anticorruption clause, it is right there in the constitution. a lot of those lawsuits became when donald trump lost the election in 2020, so they were never actually complacently settled, and now, as you say, we have a president-elect who is emboldened because nothing happened but we also have an environment where this kind of graft graft seems to have become normalized. i know i come on your show all the time and i can't stop talking about the supreme court, i'm going to talk about the supreme court. it is an extension of this, like we have normalized the spirit there have been reports about the emotional support billionaires, about justice thomas receiving giftses, quite substantial gifts from friends,i including boarding school tuition payments on his

mother's house, and it has become so scrutinized that it me has become normalized. and so, if you were donald trump, why would you be concerned, because it seems like the entire government is just awash in this at this point? ask and the defiance is an effective position, i don't care, and therefore you shouldn't care.d doge went to capitol hill today. first of all, congratulations, elon musk, and getting everyone to say the word doge g all the time. the internet medium has become our life. that is one of the things we can look forward to in trump 2. but the idea that he is going to go out there and really al change the revelatory infrastructure to directly benefit his own companies, again, it is not a secret why he is doing it. mike johnson is out there being his number one cheerleader, and i do wonder whether republicans are not fully caulking how controversial this may be, in terms of setting aside elon musk's desire to graft off the system, the things elon musk wants to do to the rest of the federal government may not sit well with people who are actually in the actual

government could >> yeah, this is asserted in the tension within the old republican party, the pre-trump republican party part of the paul ryan types were saying we are going to cut government g spending until people started hearing from constituents and things got a little more iffy. it is sort of refreshing that we get to go back to that republican politics. but the thing that i think is really striking about this external organization that they have put together is that elon musk and vivek ramaswamy very obviously don't understand what they're talking about. they say things like we are just going to cut people by social security number, we are going to cut 2 trillion, a third of the federal budget, it is just insane. but what they do know about is the things that benefit elon musk and that benefit big business, and those are the things they're going to protect it and i think for an elected official who is responsible to o constituents, to fail to understand that they quite literally only understand the things that benefit them is going to be a huge problem for them politically down the line. >> well, if you are an electric

car company that has a vested interest in these electric in vehicle tax credits that elon musk six to do away with because it helps competitors and at least doesn't help too, there are going to be lawsuits, right? i mean, you've got to imagine that the competitors are going to be like, wait a second, do, you can't just do this as head of doge or whatever. >> there are likely to be lawsuits, there likely to be received by perhaps a more conservative judiciary, so again, this has all been sort of laid out. i'm reminded, though, when he went to michigan, alex, to talk to working-class union voters, and how what they wanted was a government that works for them. they felt the biden administration was not working for them. we saw on election night, even in ruby red states, there were e a number of states where paid family leave measures passed. again, sort of classic redistribution, working-class issues. they want government dithat wor for them. and what we are seeing, i think the question is going to be in the messaging, how do you show

these people that working for elon musk, working for vivek ramaswamy is actually working for you when in fact it may just be working for them? em that is the gap. and again, we talked about this when you show those clips. like how are you on board for the party that for eight years of nine different election cycles -- or eight election cycles, has run the son of a millionaire or an actual millionaire, and now we have a whole government full of oligarchs and billionaires, how is that working for working- class people? so, i think there's going to be a real misalignment with where the voters were in the selection and perhaps what we are going to see with this in ministration. >> and then when it comes to cutting all this wasteful government spending, which is far more complicated, they're not going to touch social g security, not going to touch no medicare, but they are going to have to touch all these programs if they're going to/federal spending. the social security number -- firing people who have a social security number beginning and an odd number is not a feasible plan for restructuring the

government. and then there are the republican congressmen who have projectsre and like some of the government spending. i just foresee a massive break between what trump and his party can withstand politically and the giant promises and the bluster coming from people like vivek ramaswamy and elon musk. that's yet. two things. the first is that there is a lot of focus on federal employees as they are very easy targets. makes up about 4% of federal spending, paying those employees but if you're cuttingu a third of it, you're not going to get very far with that. the second thing is it is a really important distinction, particularly now, now that he is not going to be able to run again, it is important to establish between what is good for trump and what is good for the party. trump has never cared what is good for the party. the party has incidentally benefited at times from his leadership and his ability to turn out his voters, but he doesn't care. what is going to happen in those situations is those republicans are going to come to trump and say, hey, we've got a problem with this, and in

a worst-case scenario, he is going to say what businesses are going to contribute to my super pac that i can use to pay my legal bills? that is a worst-case scenario, but it is by no means outside the realm of possibility. meanwhile, [ inaudible ]. if [ all this goes south, the republicans are going to be the ones held accountable and donald trump is going to go back down to mar-a-lago after his term is over. best case scenario. what does he care? lexi is a lame-duck president as of generate 20th. and the reality is that republicans in congress -- we remember what the government shutdown look like under trumpet a dysfunctional federalr government does not do well for the party in charge and that is what we are barreling towards them with not only a cabinet of people that don't really care ha about the democratic principles or the people, but also someone in charge -- they don't have the experience, there is not expertise and there is not a concern, where does that leave us? i don't know. i think the implications for the party, melissa, as you point out, are vast in this moment. this is a change election, anti- incumbency around the world is on the rise and this is no

different. if you look at the neck city were many parts of the city went red, i don't know if it is because there is a mandate for donald trump, but i think there is some skepticism of blue governance. why do we pay so many taxes and the services are so negligible? why does the subway feel unsafe? even if it is an actually unsafe, why does it feel like that question why can i get more for what i am paying? p the one reason to believe in government again, i don't know if this is it. >> doge? >> that is a faculty committee, not a real department. >> melissa and philip, thank you for joining me tonight and we have a lot to get to tonight, including an answer to this question. just in time for rfk jr. to take the reins as health secretary, are we closer to the next pandemic than we think? an but first, the latest on the manhunt for the prime suspect in the murder of the unitedhealthcare ceo. i will talk to msnbc national security analyst clint watts about the latest on a potential motive, that is next. >> [ music ] >> [ music ]

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the search continues at this hour for the master gunman who shot and killed unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson outside of a manhattan hotel wednesday morning and what police are calling a premeditated, preplanned, targeted attack. now, the suspect is still at large, but earlier today,

police released these photos of a person of interest who is wanted for questioning. the images were taken from security cameras and an upper west side hostel. nbc news reports that police are investigating whether the individual used a fake i.d. and paid cash to book his room at the hostel. in addition to these details, or getting new information about what this person of interest left behind at the scene of the shooting. according to the new york times, investigators are examining a cell phone left near the scene that they have not yet gained access to the device. three senior law-enforcement officials also tell nbc news that the suspect arrived in new york city on sunday, the 24th, on a greyhound bus that originated in atlanta. as far as possible motives, senior and new york city law enforcement officials say that shell casings found at the scene were inscribed with the words, deny, defend, and depose. joining me now is clint watts, msnbc national security analyst and former fbi special agent.

clint, thank you so much for being here, i really eager to get your assessment of all of this. i mean, with these photos of the person of interest, with the potential cell phone, with some information about his itinerary for the city, how meaningful is that in terms of ultimately getting an i.d. on this person? >> alex, all of it is a major step forward compared to this time yesterday. yesterday, we were really hearing different scenarios. is this a killer, is this an attack of personal grievance, or is it about the ceo and his position at unitedhealthcare? i think what we are learning from the evidence today is that the law enforcement hasn't been able to track out his troubles into the city and while he was in the city. also, they have got some evidence -- they are pointing to a water bottle that maybe has a fingerprint on it. also talking about the cartridges and maybe getting some idea of the motive, and then having a picture of him without the mask on, that is critical to enabling the public

to help you do an identification. so, all of these things are major steps forward investigative lipid at the same point, this individual went through a lot of preparation, probably a lot of reconnaissance and a lot of rehearsal, knew what they wanted to do, so they may have a withdrawal plan that is equally complex, and also well thought out, heading into the first two or three days after this shooting. >> it seems clear that the suspect here wanted to send a message with the words on the shell casings. deny, defend, and depose, which bears a resemblance to a book about insurers refusing to honor the terms of their policies that is called delayed, denied, defend. how are you looking at those words? i mean, what does that tell you first of all about the sort of climate in and around american healthcare and those who sit at the top of these giant insurance companies? >> it is an interesting way to

send a message, by putting that on those casings, seems like the shooter new that they were going to leave those behind, and that was a way to send a message and try to connect it to the healthcare industry. i think the other part of it is the reaction that you see an online space. maybe some of these ideas could have come from online space, in terms of this individual, why they chose to do it, or what the words were that they chose to use. the other thing that i am very curious about what's there was some discussion a few hours ago that the shooter was on the phone prior to the shooting, that maybe there is imagery of him actually using the phone and calling somebody. could this be part of more of a nexus of individuals, an inspired movement that is very focused on the insurance industry, and in this case, unitedhealthcare? could this be much larger? and we always ask, if you remind to 20 years ago when there is al qaeda, i.s.i.s., terrorist groups that were around a violent ideology, is this one of many or is this the

tipping point for one of many that could be a contagion that we could see? those are things that i am sure law enforcement nationwide are quite concerned about right now. >> you mentioned the online space and there are a lot of people that get frustrated with their insurance claims and the way they are processed. i think it is almost a universal feeling in many circles that it takes too long or it is frustrating or there is some disagreement there. in terms of the online forums, i mean, how aggressively you think the fbi is examining those communities, and i mean, i wonder if you have any sort of like intelligence on how activated those communities have been in recent years or how much those are locus's of the deep, anti-institutional frustration? >> i would estimate that no one was really looking at it for its insinuation to go to a violent plot. there probably wasn't enough examples or instances of it. however, since this happened yesterday, the online spaces have been rife with comments, very derogatory comments, comments that advocate or

condone or applaud violence, and that can create a major shift, really, in terms of how audiences think about this. maybe they were frustrated about their insurance claims or the healthcare industry, but they weren't really thinking about mobilizing violence. it is an incident like this that could really be somewhat inspirational. think back, if you remember, to the attack in norway, there was a gentleman that actually went to an island, shot many children, preplanned the plot, it was kind of a far right plot , but that one instance tipped off many other instances that follow that model. so, i think things to look for maybe in the coming days, is this person connected to a larger movement? second, does law-enforcement combat with a manifesto or anything in terms of why this person chose unitedhealthcare ceo or this individual target. [ inaudible ] and do we see any sort of amplification, and really multiplication of those kinds of threats across the

online space? it doesn't mean that it will happen, but these are often times those tipping points where you can see a contagion spread very, very quickly if people are mobilized in such a way in online space. >> first of all, brian thompson, his wife said, had received death threats, and yet, he didn't travel with a security detail. is it common, broadly speaking, for ceos and major corporations to travel with security details? and if it wasn't before, when you imagine it is now? >> i would have thought there would have been a security detail with the ceo of a corporation as large as that. particularly at a major event, him going for a financial meeting for the company. so, you would think that is an open space where shareholders can come, and if a shareholder at grievances, they would maybe get violent. it doesn't necessarily mean that there would be a shooting, but there would be other reasons to protect the ceo. at the same point, i am surprised that some of the

threats, if there are online threats that were seen as indicators for actually providing security to the ceo. so, i think a lot of that has changed, particularly overnight, as it should, because like we just talked about, this is some sort of a contagion of this is a larger movement, a wider spread call to action that is seen by others who are maybe thinking about doing some sort of violence or maybe mobilizing in some sort of way, but just weren't inspired enough to do it. an incident like this can inspire them. and that means anyone who fits a similar prototype, anyone who fits that role in a similar company, they could be the next target and they would need security. >> clint watts, just and valuable perspective on all of this, thank you so much for your time tonight. >> thank you. still ahead this evening, just as the bird flu outbreak worsens, gets a lot scarier, our potential future health secretary, robert f. kennedy, jr., has identified exactly the right guy to advise him. here's a hint, he is the guy in the center of a bird flu controversy. that story is next.

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there is a lot of big national news capturing the country's attention right now, but if you turn on the local news in fresno, california, there is a different story dominating the headlines.

>> the owner of a california dairy farm says he is cooperating with the state since his raw milk operations were suspended. all operations at this farm from herds to bottle products are now under quarantine. inspectors in santa clara county said they found bird flu in a sample over the weekend. the ceo of the company is challenging those findings and sharing his side of the story. >> they have no detection right now of any live viruses in our milk. this is a natural process, it is not something that is extraordinary, something i didn't do wrong or right. there are no illnesses, and we believe there is not even a potential for illness because of the physiology and science behind what happens to flu bugs in raw milk. >> a fresno raw milk farm was quarantined by health officials after regulars say some of its milk tested positive for bird flu from infected cats. and the ceo of that raw milk farm, a man named marc mcafee, has appeared on just about every local tv station in the fresno area to say he disputes those findings and that his

milk is safe to drink. mr. mcafee says all of this is just a political issue. but what makes this a story of national importance is what marc mcafee says happened next. >> the mcafee may play a role in national policy. he says rfk jr., who is on track to run and yet in the trump administration, asked him to apply to be an adviser on raw milk policy and standards development. >> yes. the raw milk ceo currently fighting claims about bird flu contamination has reportedly been contacted by robert f. kennedy, jr. to be part of the fda, which is part of the department of health, at a time when that same department may be facing down an increasing threat from bird flu contamination. now, for some context here, the cdc is currently warning people across the entire country not to drink raw milk because of the risks associated with the growing bird flu outbreak. but rfk jr. has made the deregulation of raw milk one of his passion projects, if you

will. despite whatever possible pandemics may be on the horizon. and now, kennedy is reportedly reaching out to that embattled fresno raw milk ceo for help setting national raw milk policy. and that is maybe worrisome because researchers this week are warning that bird flu could easily evolve to become a much bigger threat to humans than it is currently. since this outbreak began in march, the cdc has identified 58 people who have been infected with bird flu. almost all of those cases appeared to have come from contact with livestock. now, so far, experts don't think the virus can spread from human to human. but a new study published today by the scripps research institute suggests that the virus may be closer than previously thought to being able to spread from human to human. experts stress that more research is needed to know just exactly how close we are to that point, but if the burglar does become a virus that spreads between humans, that

can result in yet another public health emergency and one that we are not prepared for. just this week, house republicans released a 500 page report on the u.s. response to the covid pandemic, and unsurprisingly, that republican report criticized all of the efforts taken to stop the spread of covid, or masking to social distancing to lockdowns. so, those are the people who could end up making the policies for the next pandemic, and incoming administration appears to have no interest in preventing one from starting in the first place. coming up, republicans in congress are gearing up to deliver on the trump agenda as democrats begin drying up their own battle plan. we will have the latest on all of that with the atlantic's mark leibovitz and the bulwarks tim miller. that is up next. x [ music ] >> reporter: reporter:

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the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. it took more than four weeks, but the 2024 election is finally over. yesterday, nbc news made a projection for the winner in the final house race that remained uncalled, he was a democrat. and that leads republicans officially in control of both the house and the senate, both with very slim majorities. democrats are preparing for that and the incoming trump administration by reportedly shaking up the ranks of their leadership. politico reports that house democrats are poised to unseat several senior committee leaders, and hakeem jeffries is letting it happen. it is a kin to mutiny, but party lawmakers are increasingly anxious about the incoming trump administration and full gop control of

congress. meanwhile, republicans are figuring out how to make use of their narrow majorities to execute on trump's agenda. republican senator thom tillis acknowledged that msnbc that it will be super challenging. the key is going to be addressing all these coalitions that are likely going to threaten an insufficient number of votes unless they get their priorities. it is infinitely more complex. joining me now, mark, staff writer at the atlantic, and tim miller, co-host of the bulwark podcast. gentlemen, thank you for being here to unpack those things that are infinitely more complex. mark, first, let me ask you, in terms of all of this, there have been different schools of thought on how trump and the white house that might alleviate some of the pressures that have existed on the house republican conference. did you think having a republican leading the executive branch in any way it makes it easier for the legislative branch or is this conference to raucous to actually fall in line? >> yeah, i think the raw

business that we saw in republican caucuses -- raucous, caucus -- over the last few years when trump was out of office -- i think in some ways now that trump is back, there will be kind of -- i wouldn't say a more orderly procession, but i do think that there is such fear and such are rallying around trump, at least early on in his second term, it has been an organizing principle to some degree, but having said that, this is a very, very -- you know, it is an unpredictable caucus, we saw that from last year and what they achieved in the last caucus, and look, trump is not exactly going to take a nuanced approach to this. it is not like he is going to learn everybody's districts and everybody's interests and so forth, i mean, he is going to try to be as blunt force as possible, and i think once his poll numbers change and once he looks a little more vulnerable, i think some republicans might see their own vulnerability if it looks like the house is

going to flip, and might try to protect their own self interests. >> i mean, the house is one question, the senate is another, and i think when you look at both chambers, right now -- i don't know, tim, what do you make of what is happening in the senate? i must play some of the indignation? on the airwaves, courtesy of tommy tuberville, a man who is known for his indignation, this is what he has been saying about senate republican interest to some of his nominees, including pete hegseth, take a listen. >> donald trump did all the bedding they need to do on pete hegseth and i just can't believe we have people on our side were sent i have got to look at this, got to look back at what they're doing is they're throwing rocks at donald trump, they are not throwing them at pete hegseth, they're throwing them at donald trump. >> maybe he doesn't know the senate's role is to advise and consent, but anyway, is that for real? do you think there is a sort of mutinous strain of senate republicans right now, tim? >> yeah, well, i don't know

that tommy tuberville knows what the word bedding means, that is another possible thing there. he clearly didn't vet pete hegseth since more and more information continues to come out about is just disastrous personal life. so, i guess that's maybe the most generous way you could put it. as far as immunity question is concerned, i don't know if it would call it mutinous. i would say the matt gaetz withdrawal surprised me. the other thing that surprised me is that donald trump himself has not yet been throwing his weight around, so to speak, with these nominees. he seems kind of happy to let them die on the vine themselves if they are going to, or not. there is no evidence he cares either way. he is not using a lot of political muscle to twist arms on capitol hill, so i think it remains to be seen what they will look like in that case, but i will tell you this, while you don't make any money betting on the courage of senate republicans, if you start from the baseline of having murkowski and collins as two that i think will likely

about the craziest nominee is, you only really need two more. and unlike the house, as leo points out, all the house guys are up in two years. that is not the case in the senate. you're going to have some retiring senators, you are going to have people that just got elected up for six years, there are a lot of old-timers in the senate that you forget are there. mike rounds is doing interviews again, i forgot he was there, he has been there for 20 years. there aren't as many maga people in the senate as there are in the house. so, there is room for them to reject trump, and i think the more they reject him, the more -- you know, once there is blood in the water, i think it becomes harder for trump to kind of reverse that, so i think next month is actually kind of critical in that regard but >> a mike rounds, the nation turns its lonely eyes to you. you know, there is interesting reporting relevant to mike rounds, perhaps, mark, that tulsi gabbard and rfk jr. are trump's redlines, this is from the very reputable news source,

the bulwark. this is what he reports, "the parents of rfk and tulsi gabbard represent a realignment in american politics that you saw in the election, said roger stone, a longtime trump friend and adviser. he understands the historical significance of that realignment." basically gabbard and kennedy represent badges of honor in terms of flipping formerly democrats into maga land, and that trump is i guess going to fight for them in a way that at some point he has really fought for the other nominees. are you buying that? >> you know, that was an interesting report, i hadn't thought of that. i also thought that if trump is going to sort of line up behind -- or go to the mat for some of these nominees, he would maybe have a bias towards a more brute force nominees, like someone a little bit more out there stylistically like gaetz -- obviously it is not going to be gaetz at this point, but

maybe hegseth, maybe kash patel, someone like that but it was a point that i hadn't thought about, which is that if you really wanted to put his mark on ideological realignment, if in fact he thinks that way, kennedy and gabbard would be two people to broaden the coalition. also, kind of like just badges in which he could sort of show that he can bully republicans into accepting anything well beyond anything they ever agreed with ideologically, because these are two people traditionally quite liberal. politically, they are democrats. so, i don't know if he would go to the mat, but i do think that he likes the idea of himself as a shake after here. and you know, as tim said, at some point, he will probably have to throw his weight around, probably more so when he is in office and he has a better sense of what is at stake. >> he also just hates being dubbed a loser, and it is really hard for me to imagine, tim, that he would take the defeat of potentially pete hegseth, maybe kash patel, then

you throw it maybe gabbard and kennedy on top of it, i mean, the narrative going into day one or day whatever of the trump administration would be that of actually failure and immunity, and i just think that is something he will not count in this. >> yeah, i mean, there is some real risk of that already, like things unraveling. it's not like things haven't unraveled for trump before in many of his private businesses and in the first trump administration, so it is possible. also, i did notice john thune maybe has a less lax it is a call scheduled for the senate than they have had in the past, and so, that offset some of what i'm about to say, but even if they do get through, like having contentious confirmation hearings for several of these or more embarrassing things, where there is more bad press, as much as donald trump doesn't like losing, bad press he likes even less possibly, and so, i think that all of that is a real risk for them for january. >> market, meanwhile, democrats

are engaged in, i guess, what is being termed their own kind of mutiny, ousting longtime, or senior leaders in the house who sit atop prime committee spots for potentially a younger generation, and there is a question about, you know, whether alexandria ocasio- cortez might had the oversight committee were kristin murphy, what do you make -- i mean, i know you are well versed in the political culture of the democratic party and the republican party, but what do you make of what is i guess a changing of the guard were a new generation of leaders coming to the floor inside congress? >> yeah, it does look like democrats are being far more aggressive than they have in the past to try to change up certainly the committee, and it doesn't look like, as we said before, hakeem jeffries is going to take as heavy a hand as maybe nancy pelosi would have in the past. i also think that some of my jamie raskin has proven himself to be incredibly talented, we have seen it over and over again and a lot of very public,

high profile settings, and jerry nadler, i wouldn't say the nights have been out for him within the party for a while, but i think there has been some inpatience with his style over the years, so i think that didn't surprise me that much. and again, yeah, aoc is an oversight -- it is a very high profile position potentially, especially for a party in the minority, and awoke, she has a platform, she has an ability to get attention and a lot of people listen to her, so i think that would be, you know, a pretty telling elevation inside the caucus, and one that she could really do a lot of work with. >> what you think about strategically, tim? there is a sense that democrats need to be more pugnacious in the age of trump then perhaps they weren't even in the campaign, and having someone like aoc at oversight, which is going to be a very powerful committee in age of trump 2.0, what you think of that as a battle posture for the democrats? >> i'm less worried about age and were worried about the democrats agreeableness.

there is a little bit too much agreeableness. -- among democrats that has led to some problems on the hill. i look at what we were discussing in the beginning. republicans have this tiny house majority. it is a three seat majority now, but they are going to have vacancies, they are going to need to get every republican on board for stuff. in the past, in the first trump administration and throughout kevin mccarty's speakership, the democrats -- we funded the government because the democrats helped the republicans from the government. kevin mccarthy and mike johnson haven't had that. i wonder if it is time to reconsider that. i think the democrats should start to reconsider their tactics, and is having some new blood in there helps with that, i'm all for that. but i think more hardball tactics on this sort of stuff and making republicans actually govern and show the american people how they plan to govern if they are forced to govern themselves, i think that might be a wise tactical shift for the democrats, and i hope that

they take it. >> yeah, maybe not rescuing republicans from catastrophes of their own making. routinely. mark, tim miller, thank you for your time tonight, my friends. we will be right back. ill be r. never “who's waldo?” sometimes it takes someone who really knows you to make you feel seen. gifts that say i get you. etsy has it.

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one bit of breaking news before we go tonight. donald trump has just announced his pick of silicon valley billionaire david sachs to be the new white house crypto and a.i. czar. you are probably old enough to remember way back in january of 2021 when sachs said this of trump after the capital insurrection. "i think he's disqualified himself from being a candidate at the national level. if you want to see this mob as a gun, i trump loaded the gun. he pointed it in a certain direction." that is our show for tonight. now, it is time for "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell pretty good evening, lawrence.

>> turns out,