hi, happy friday, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. we are, once again, following the minute-by-minute twists and turns of pete hegseth's pursuit of becoming donald trump's secretary of defense. that is despite a growing pile

of allegations against him from allegations of sexual misconduct and alcohol abuse, as well as alleged financial mismanagement. to say nothing of hegseth's extremist views about things like the medieval crew said and "the new york times" calls praise for the brutal religious military campaigns of the past and according to "the times" a model for today as hegseth sees. it's notable and after days of remaining conspicuously silent on the fate of hegseth's nomination, today, donald trump weighed in on how, quote. pete is a winner in all caps. what donald trump is doing, outside of posting on social media, is a very different story. "the washington post" reports, quote, hegseth has been told not to expect donald trump to apply pressure to republican senators to get him over the finish line

for confirmation next month. that is according to two people familiar with the discussions who spoke anonymously. meaning donald trump appears to be unwilling to spend any of his own political capital to save hegseth preferring what looks like a "hunger games" may the odds be in your favor approach, a sink or swim gap that could be politically risky after four straight days of a wanna be he wants to be confirmed but the hill crunched those numbers and hegseth can only afford three republican defections but eight republican senators are proposed to vote against hegseth and not calling for him to publicly resigned because they don't want to be criticized by trump's maga allies. one senator told "the hill" quote.

the hurdles hegseth still has to clear are formidable. one of the most influential senate republicans in terms of hegseth's nomination is senator joni ernst, yesterday, told fox she is not yet a yes and has to plans to meet with hegseth again today. next week, hegseth is expected to sit down with republican senator susan collins who has stated that the charges of impropriety against hegseth is exactly why cabinet picks ought to be subjected to fbi background checks. in other words, anything could happen. buckle up. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reports and friends. senior political reporter for "the washington post" and author of "the campaign moment" newsletter, aaron blake is here. also is political strategist and msnbc senior analyst matt dowd is back. with me here at the table for

the hour is president of the national action network and host of "politics nation" right here on msnbc, the reverend al sharpton is here. take me through the hegseth nomination and tell me what, if anything, is working in his favor at this point. it feels like a lot of head wind and not much headway. >> it's hard to see right now. although i would say that, you know, joni ernst is setting herself up to be a pretty decisive figure in all of this. she said some very skeptical things about him. you know, if you look at her comments and you read between the lines, you could understand that is suggesting to donald trump that maybe it's time to go for somebody else. she is talking openly about the idea that florida governor ron desantis would maybe be a better pick for this office. but, also, you have a situation which she is setting herself up if she did come around to pete

hegseth somehow she could pull other republican senators along with her. whether that would be sufficient, is anybody's guess. i think a lot of these senators are truly waiting for whatever might come out of something like an fbi background checks for if this is somebody that can ultimately support. they don't want to commit too early because they don't know what is going to come. so i think everybody just kind of taking a wait and see approach right now but a lot of people clearly would prefer that this was a lot easier than trying to confirm somebody like pete hegseth. >> what is interesting about the appetite now for a background check is that the background check isn't meant to replace a confirmation process. it's their job to ask questions. the background check is simply to make sure that the nominee isn't a target for potential blackmail. the oath that you take after you're sworn in is to the united states of america. what exactly is susan collins looking for in the fbi background check, aaron blake?

>> well, i mean, you could look at this as them making sure that there aren't other alleges that have made against him in the past, like the alleged sexual assault that we saw in 2017. you could look at this as them seeing if there is more to these reports about his alleged abuse of alcohol, his treatment of women. basically, this is them trying to get the fuller picture of everything in his past. you're right from that point on, it is up to them to ask questions about these things and go beyond that report. but i think that provides kind of the basis point for them to really have those conversations and that is the point at which they will decide whether they want to entertain this actually in a situation which it actually gets to these confirmation hearings which i think is a really big question right now. >> aaron blake, i want to read from your reporting on this. if hegseth's pick is withdrawn it would mark a second high profile loss to trump after his

former attorney general pick matt gaetz lasted eight days. that would be highly unusual. the emerging question is what that says about trump's little capital, with still a month and a half until he is actually sworn in. newly elected presidents have seen their cabinet picks fail but generally not for two marquee posts and generally not this quickly. perhaps the play here is to shoot for the moon and see what he can get and fall back on more confirmable picks if need be. but trump also has his political capital to mind at a crucial juncture. republicans are demonstrating they can stand up to trump and don't fear the consequences too much. you can forthem for feeling emboldened more going forward. tell me if your own analysis is that this is a factor of senators who, for nine years, have been anything but courageous and willing to stand up to trump, or they suddenly are different, or if it is that

these picks are so manifestly unsuited for the jobs they have been tapped to fill? >> yeah. i think it's a combination of those two things. there is no question that donald trump, after he was elected, you know, on election night, he was talking about the idea that he had a historic and powerful mandate. well, we know now he didn't win a majority of the popular vote. republicans won the house by a relative smail margin. they won the senate largely because they won in red states. this was not a huge affirmation of the republican party but not the message that trump took away from that. he went with a number of picks that the people around him had to know were going to challenge these republican senators even in ways that they weren't necessarily challenged in his first term. so if you're a republican senator and you're looking at that, you know, there is

definitely some pain to the experience if you're going to stand up to donald trump, at least theoretically. but, also, they need to be asking themselves what the tone being said is. if they sign off on these picks that they are clearly uncomfortable with early on before he is actually inaugurated as president, is that going to lead to him doing all kinds of things that will make them uncomfortable moving forward? and whatever you think about these republican senators, a lot of them have, you know, concerns about who might be running the defense department. they have, you know, concerns about who might be attorney general. these are big jobs that have really big impacts. so these are things that matter to them. and so if there are things on which they could stand up to trump and maybe take some political risks, i think these are some of those things and we are seeing that to some degree. >> hope springs eternal that you are right. matt dowd, your thoughts. >> well, i have a couple of things. first, trump's statement that

you read is not as bolstering to pete hegseth as i think many people think. when he describes him as things are going very well, that is a very tone down version of donald trump. then his last line, i think, is telling when he said he is a winner basically no matter what anybody says about him. leading you to the conclusion that if he rolls back or donald trump switches, he can say he is a winner. i think that was a tepid bolstering of him in the course of this. i also think that this fbi background check could actually give pete hegseth a little bit of a breather because it allows these senators who, as we have seen over the course of the last few years, don't have a lot of courage to say i want to see the fbi background check. so that we are 18 days or 17 days until christmas. it gives them an ability to pull back and not have to take a stand in the middle of this. i would say, yes, they have

shown some courage but their pill chips haven't been to the table yet because matt gaetz didn't push it to a vote so nobody really had to stand up fundamentally to him. they signaled to him quietly and so far for pete hegseth also. i think the six or seven or eight republicans that aaron talked about are doing they don't want hick top the secretary of defense but they also simultaneously couldn't want to vote against a trump nominee. they hope the problem takes care of themselves so they don't have to buck up and take on donald trump during the course of this. as i say, i think the sort of potential fbi background checks gives them some space where they can hold their powder and wait until after the first of the year and hopefully the problem takes care of itself in the interim. >> i think, matt dowd, there is also enough reporting that makes clear to donald trump, none of these people -- with the

exception of a couple, but not including hegseth, mean that much to him personally. i mean, he gave them the job. if it had been easy, it would have been fine, he would be there. but he's already interviewing a backup according to four sources and he is in advance talks is how they are described with ron desantis. he likes the jockeying for attention and to be tapped. he likes sort of watching the sink or swim of all this. that doesn't chafe or bother him. >> no. this is consistent both in his professional and his personal life. donald trump in every situation starts a relationship with somebody before the next -- before the current relationship is over. he is not somebody that is stuck on an island and swims in the ocean to the next island. he wants the next island pushed next to him so he can jump to it so he doesn't have to deal with it and what he does here. i mean, if -- what i don't

understand is the loyalty and, again, i think it's not really loyalty, the fear many people have to him. in donald trump's world and donald trump's life, every single person is expendedable if it doesn't serve his purposes here. anybody who thinks donald trump that a dual loyalty or shared loyalty i'm going through a hard time and donald trump will go through a hard time for me, no evidence that donald trump will go through a hard time for anyone. >> i want to show you what the exception might be, rev, based on the bold report who is trying about tulsi gabbard and rfk jr. gabbard and kennedy's nominations like pete hegseth and kash patel -- quote.

the thing about trump is for trump, it's never been enough to have the conservative media sort of as maga fans, right? it's never been adequate and an interesting reporting in bulwark. hegseth is not an actual star on that network and kash patel is a figure sort of in the bannon media ecosystem but trump is independence in these folks with crossover appeal. >> i think that is right. i think you must remember, trump, more than anything, is a

performer and the performance and the optics mean a lot more to him than the policy. and i think that hegseth and matt gaetz, maybe they have to and maybe they don't, but his stars, the guys that would perform before the main act if we were in vegas are robert kennedy and tulsi gabbard. and i think that if those two are shot down, the optics of that hurts the whole maga revolution because they, more than anybody, represent the disruption that he promised. now, i don't think either one them are capable of doing their jobs any more than i think that hegseth is but i think it doesn't matter. it's the optics, it's their disruptive kind of ideology and the fact that they are so unsettling to democrats is what he wants to send that message. so he'll sacrifice two or three

people to hold his stars in line. now, in a year, he may throw them to the wolves but he wants to be able to say to his crowd, i told you. i gave them robert kennedy who will disrupt health care and stop vaccines. gabbard who are they saying with russia. that is the ultimate i've delivered on you so i can do ten things that i told i wouldn't do and i'll do it any way. it's all about optics with him. >> the casting. >> it's all about casting. >> matt dowd, we talked earlier in the week after hegseth's interview on making kelly about drinking. let me show what donald trump's nephew fred trump said about alcohol and alcohol abuse yesterday. >> i've heard hegseth say, i'm going to stop drinking if i become secretary of defense. as i said before, is it that simple? if it was that simple, everybody

who wanted to stop drinking, would stop drinking. it's a dangerous thing to have a guy like that running the largest bureaucracy maybe on the planet. i think it's just too dam dangerous. >> matt dowd, just picking up on our conversation about this topic before, of all the things that trump does not find disqualification, allegations of sexual abuse and sexual assault and allegations of substance abuse problem, especially alcohol, is one that reporters who cover him say trump does find disturbing. >> yeah. you know, in that conversation, to go back to the conversation we had, to me, it's -- it's one of the few things he has talked about personally which is the alcoholism of his brother and all of that and what his view and judgment on that was and how

disturbed by all that he was. it felt like less compassionate and more judgmental in that but he definitely has an opinion on it. i take this at his word on it. he says he never drinks. in the course of that, i think that is related to because of how he judges that. it is quite the interesting line. he won't draw a line at private or public corruption. he won't drive a line at sexual abuse or however he views that in that, but seems to have a line on the drinking thing. i find that interesting. that is why as i said on the other day, why i said i don't think -- i think that pete hegseth has a sell by date and i think it's going to get extended because this fbi gives a breather for people to sort of pan off and not have to weigh in on this. i think pete hegseth, you and i have experienced in politics and stories, you know, when one

story falls and two story falls and three stories fall, you know five to seven stories are coming in the course of this. >> yeah. >> i think what donald trump knows. donald trump is exceedingly smart at politics and donald trump -- it's been reported in other places -- that he was taking aback because they asked him, pete hegseth a series of questions and pete hegseth never copped to any of this stuff and never told them. i think donald trump doesn't want to be embarrassed. the reverend said, it's all about performance. i think that this -- for pete hegseth, you is bruce willis in the sixth sense. he is dead and he doesn't know it yet and the senators hope he passes away without him having to pronounce it. >> we will leave it right there! aaron blake, thank you for starting us off and your reporting on this. when we come back, in his first public remarks since the november election, former

president barack obama offers up some ideas and solutions and perhaps the way forward to help heal a divided nation. we will play some of that for you and talk about. new fears the next administration could stifle the fight against terrorism and right wing terrorism in america. we are learning that president biden president biden is in the talks to issue preemptive pardons. that will be in the second hour and much more when we continue after a quick break. much more we after a quick break. on chewy,

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but dr. king, like gandhi, like nelson mandela, also understood if you want to create lasting chak lasting change, you have to find ways to practice addition rather subtraction. so let me make this key point. pluralism is not about holding hands and singing kaw cumbayah. it is not about abandoning your convictions and folding when things get tough. it is about recognizing that in a democracy, power comes from forging alliances and building coalition and making room in those coalitions, not only for

the woke, but also for the waking. >> president barack obama speaking some truth bombs there as only he does. those are his first public remarks since the november election. they were delivered at the obama's annual family democracy forum and the former president laying out hard truths for his party and the country as the pro democracy movement, if you will, charts a path forward during a trump presidency. joining us is our friend msnbc political analyst cornell belcher is here. matt and the rev are still with us. cornell, president obama, there are some things singular about his ability to campaign and persuade as well as his ability to articulate what doesn't work in other seek to campaign and persuade. this piece that he has and there

is some of this in his convention speech. there was some of this in, you know, a little more nuanced in his stump speech. but you don't get to do any of the good things if you don't win. and it feels like he is trying to turn this, you know, around, right? and say all this stuff, all of this stuff that we want to do is awesome. we are on the side of angels. but none of it happens if we don't forge winning coalitions. why is that so important to him? i know, obviously, because the party lost in november, but it feels almost like a plea to the leaders of his party at this point. >> i think some of that is right, but as someone who is in the thick of this nonsense, nicole, i think what he was directing a lot of his conversation at are the hand-wringers and those who want

to go backwards as opposed to forward. look. i sat in focus groups over the last decade or so and listened to voters talk about, often how republicans, even if they don't agree with them, republicans will stand and fight for what they believe in. and they will fight tooth and nail for what they believe in and their convictions, while there is a sense that democrats, perception along remove voters will and democrats won't. that perception is built from all that you've heard over the last couple of weeks coming from a lot of -- not all, but a lot of so-called democratic strategists who -- look. the term they use, you know, we got to win by addition, not subtraction is going directly at some of these hot take so-called democratic pundits who now want to shrink the party. and now want to move away from

their values and their convictions and try to move towards trump voters, right? look. one of the key things that made me fall in love with obama, even before he announced when he was thinking about running, i remember sitting around a small table with him and some of the other advisers and him talking about we have got to make the electorate bigger and look like the changing face of america and we have to expand or i don't have a chance to win. that is right. he did not have a chance to win if he didn't bring more people in. howard dean argued that. a lot of people in the democratic party saying everything you've been doing over the last decade or so is wrong and we now got to move in a different direction and we now

have to start talking and taking up issue space that trump and republicans are taking up. i think that is absolutely the wrong lessons to learn from this election. >> cornell, he does talk about the woke and the waking. what does that mean to you? >> it means both. right? again, i think he is going right after some of these so-called progressive strategists who say, oh, we were too woke. or that, you know, we were too far to the left. as opposed -- as opposed to you've got to have those people who are on the left but also those people in the middle as well. you cannot abandon your core principles in which you believe in. if you believe that gays and lesbians have the right to marry and if you believe that women should be able to fight in our military, you don't abandon your beliefs because of one election. >> yeah.

matt dowd, again, president obama is so singularly gifted at articulating it, but people better figure out how to amplive this and then operationalize this. i think the politics is both and, right? i was reminded recently that for the eight years of the obama presidency, there were immigration protests outside of the white house every single day. not because president obama was anti-immigrant or anti-illegal immigrant, but because while sort of progressive and compassionate, people wanted to see order at the border. they wanted competence that some of the atmospheric things in this election, everything being locked inside a cvs. always pointing to statistics and bills as opposed to people's lived experiences. to cornell's point, feels like

you're choosing either/or that left democrats on the signed of defendinging the status quo and not what feels good to voters. you've been talking this talk and fluent in this language and politics of addition your whole career. tell me what you hear in president obama's speech. >> the first thing i think is that we have to understand this doesn't start with donald trump. donald trump was the end result of what has been, you know, the at any time tetonic plates in america and the worst that became that and where we are today. our democracy has been under attack and floundering quite a bit over the last 20 years. i think there is many reasons for it. we can point to the silos of information and we can point to

sort of gerrymandering. i always come back to this. i'm glad that president obama mentioned ndhi and martin luther king in this. the only way change occurs from the top from the top down. they think the top is fixing the country and that is not what is going to fix the country. the country is going to be fixed from the grounds up. there are two pedestals of the community table of democracy in our pedestals. one is shared values and the other pillar is a belief in common set of effects and both are broken. in my view, the only way to repair both of those things is

what we do in our communities. what we do in our neighborhoods. the conversations we have with people and i know some people don't like this but people that fly trump flags or voted for donald trump that are decent, good people. i mean, keep in mind on election day a mantle of the country disliked donald trump and distrusted donald trump and thought he was too extreme. so there was a number of voters that didn't like him, didn't trust him and thought he was too extreme but voted for donald trump in the course of this. those are the people that we have to touch. the other suggestion i would make, and i was part of the problem in this, and i've understood that, is we have to start struct -- every time we did that we divide the country in halves. we have to construct campaigns that although they we may not achieve it, we have to construct campaigns that are inclusive to 60 to 70% of the country so when

we got america we are not just talking to 50% plus one and 49.9% feel rejected in the course of this. we have had campaigns and messages that go after a super majority of the country and if we do that and work at the community level, i believe we can solve this problem. >> in another time that would have been a radical thing to say but this time, it is radical. i can hear people recoiling at the fact that the pro democracy in the democratic party was on the side of all people on the side of equality, on the side of truth, on the side of facts. ahead for us in this hour, new developments to tell you about in the new york city manhunt for the alleged shooter of the headlight insurance ceo. headlight insurance ceo. license?

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>> rev, that was back in 2019, short of in the throes of the democratic primary that year. it was about beating trump and it's amazing. nine years sort of into to the trump story, it's still about figuring out how to feet trump who has the largest available vote in the country as matt dowd says people who are against trump and trumpism but it has yielded 2 out of 3 victories for him. >> it has yielded that but there was one he didn't win. i think when we look at what happened in '24, let's not forget, donald trump did not have an overwhelming vote. vice president kamala harris came in number three in american history in the amount of votes that was cast for presidential candidate. so the question is how you broaden that base. and i think what president obama is saying, he practiced. he put it in by winning twice

when people thought he wouldn't. and he was able to manifest a coalition, even taking flat from the far left and the far right. i mean, belcher knows better than anybody. some of us that were in civil rights that went with obama, we took flak from people in our own base because we understood what he said. if mandela and dr. king and gandhi never done that, we never would have had movements. you got to be strong enough to say i'm going to stand up, i'm not going to compromise my principles, but i'm not going to be judgmental because we need to build alliances. no one is a better example than barack obama. ironically, on the right, trump is saying that and trump has done that. trump throws anything he has stood for to the wind to make room for whomever. >> he has rfk. >> think about this now. he is literally talking to ron

desantis who he called everything but a child of god about possibly be secretary of defense if hegseth doesn't get through. so it would seem to me something that should occur to democrats that if we are mature enough where donald trump has no real insight in terms of policy, but he if is he smart enough to say, that was yesterday and if we can do a common thing, why can't we do that? it's not selling out. it's standing up. >> what is an issue they do that on? >> that the democrats can do it on? >> uh-huh. >> absolutely, they can deal with everything from health care with robert kennedy coming. they can deal with it in terms of voting rights and who knows what is going to happen with the attorney general who was a -- attorney general. there are issues you and must rally around. you know, we went -- action network and i went on a tour,

nonpartisan but talking about the issues during the election. i heard from las vegas to philadelphia to winston-salem. people were, yes, concerned about the economy, but they also are concerned about things underground, like the health care. when you start talking about they are going to mess with medicare and medicaid and in which they are literally talking about, when you start talking about the fact that student loans debt was stopped. that's how talk to young people and just put the issues out there. you don't have to like we did say who to vote for, put the issues out there. but i think that we have more in common, the expression he said the blood that binds us is the thicker than the waters that divide us and i think we play too much to the division. i was saying to some of the protesters around gaza. i'm all for -- i'm not -- i'm certainly a supporter of what happened on october 7th was

disgraceful but i'm also for challenging netanyahu about gaza. so there is a balance. i also said the thing that disturbs me is i don't see you all protesting trump who said he'll let netanyahu do anything he wants. so it seems like we have a purity test on one side and we have, well, we understand him on the other and what we are understanding is they are mature enough to say, well, i know i called you a name yesterday but we need to be able to stack courts with judges and do this, that, or the other and that is why donald trump edged in with less than 2% of the popular vote. >> we could go on for infinity on. thank you for being a part of this. day through of the manhunt in new york city for the person who killed the chief executive of a health insurance company executive. investigators are piecing more

details together and have new information about where the shooter might have gone.

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interest in the case and we have released the photo yesterday. we would appreciate you getting that photo out to your audience because we also have reason to believe that the person in question has left new york city. so we want a wider audience to see the picture. >> let's bring in our tom winter. tom, tell us how they know that and where this stands. >> right. last we heard from the police department, and we haven't gotten a lot of briefings from them publicly, but the last we heard from them was that they were looking for this individual in central park or at least they had avoid of him going to central park. they since developed additional video of getting into a cab and heading to the port authority in new york city. that is the hub for buses in and out. next to the port authority a number of other bussing companies from all across the country come to. that is the hub for buses. within the port authority, you

go et to new jersey, you get to pennsylvania, all sorts of different place. they have video of him going in and they do not have video of him coming out. so that why they believe some way, somehow, he got on a puts or some form of public transit and is on his way out of new york city. if he had gone to the subway lines below port authority, chances are we would picked up on video that the police department has access to and another reason i know some people really know new york city, he could have gone on the subway. highly unlikely. it appears at this point according to the police department in their investigation that he has left new york city. >> the facial recognition technology that you've talked about on this program the last couple of days. >> yeah. >> when they run this picture of his face against it, what happens? >> so far, they have no identification on who this person is. which means that that technology has not -- either the feet is not good enough or there is not

a photograph that is in the database that allow us to get a better idea of who the suspect is. so that is a challenge. it could be helpful in two ways. one, matching it against a database which might give you an identification. it can also be helpful just tracking a specific individual. that is where it also has a lot of value as well. so this happens real-time and terrorism investigations and other investigations, the ability to go back and say, computer, effectively and find this type 6 person or find somebody looking like this wearing these types of clothes and their systems can go back and that is helpful as far as some of the -- his inbound travels to new york city. right now, once he leaves, he kind of leaves the surveillance camera net and where he went from there and where he dropped off, i think, there is all sorts of questions. there has been a number of leads that i think they believe are quite strong that they have been looking at since last evening

going through the day-to-day. and so far, those leads have not panned out according to our discussions with various people familiar and briefed on this investigation. so strong leads have not worked out. there are some strong leads that they continue to get in and at the continue to get a number of tips with that face photo because it is quite clear. so it's interesting that nobody has come forward yet and said, i know that person. and so that is something that -- or at least that is not a tip that has filtered through yet. so a lot of questions about this. this individual not perfect disciplined because we are looking at a face of them right now smitten with one of the workers at the hostile, but on the other hand they were able to ditch their backpack that hasn't been found. the gun has not been found. this person clearly planned for this and they were in new york city quite some time. after we spoke yesterday we received word he sized in new york city on november 24th. he has been here for a while. what was up with that? and the type of planning.

>> he was hostile the whole time? >> i don't have 100% clirt in -- clarity in that and triple check my notes. what is pointed out in the interviews that he was in that general area of where this ceo was going to be brian thompson for approximately 30 minutes beforehand. if you were going to go after somebody, you would want to be there for hours ahead of time. you have no idea when somebody is going to walk to that hotel. that hotel is enormous. we know from working and being in this area. he happens to find himself on the right side of the street coming and knowing where this individual is coming from and knowing they are staying at a different hotel. a lot of planning here. >> i want to ask you about about this more. we will be right back. we will be right back.

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more human way to healthcare. so, tom winter, here is my question from watching too much svu, right? he's on the phone right before he shoots. the victim. what is the investigation in to whether or not he was acting alone or who he was talking to? >> great yes. they are working on the phone and i think that is closely held part of this investigation at this point. from prior investigations, they can track to some degree cell phones. they try ankle iangulate differ powers.

you can really start to find somebody's whereabouts but if they don't have a specific subscriber information signed to that phone, a burner phone, a throw-away phone, that can make it difficult. >> we don't know if that is what that was? >> still under investigation. >> tom winter, i knows these are busy days for you. thank you for making time for us. rev, nau thank you. on how the trump administration could set back the fight against domestic terrorism. we will bring you that story and much more when we continue after a very short break. much more when we continue after a very short break giving without expecting something in return. ♪ giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪] ♪ ♪ have you always had trouble with your weight? same. discover the power of wegovy®.

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you also had people that

were very fine people on both sides. almost everything i see is from the left wing. not from the right wing. we look very strong at j-6. those people. there has never been people treated more horrifically than j-6 hostages. >> it's 5:00 in new york. donald trump has always struggled to call out domestic extremism or domestic terrorism and threats of violence when it comes from folks he views as potentially part of his coalition. as the department of justice braces for another trump presidency, researchers are expecting to see a resurgence of that position from trump which they say will likely impact how the department carries out its duties. "the washington post" has new reporting about those concerns. quote. based on campaign promises and trump's first-term record, analysts foresee rollback of initiatives aiming at curbing

violent extremism and among the predictions a slashing of domestic terrorism resources. white house pressure to investigate what trump terms the radical left and cuts to programs aimed at preventing radicalization. such moves would reverse steps tap by the biden administration which issued the nation's first strategy on countering terrorism in 2021. a campaign to fight white supremacist and anti-government violence that had become, quote, the most urgent terrorism threat the united states faces today, end quote. "the washington post" reports has things has changed since. threat.

the first signal things will be shifting, trump has declared a decision to replace his former hand-picked fbi director christopher wray. trump, himself, put him in that spot after he fired jim comey seven years ago. trump has yet to provide a reason as to why wray is unable to finish a full ten-year term in his view but what we have seen in public is that christopher wray, unlike donald trump, has been able to put political affiliation aside when assessing the risk to the country. >> within the domestic terrorism bucket, category as a whole, racially motivated violence extremism i think is the biggest bucket within that larger group.

and within that bucket, people ascribing to some kind of white supremacist type ideology is certainly the biggest chunk of that. i was appalled, like you, at the violence and destruction that we saw that day. i was appalled that you, our country's elected leaders, were victimized right here in these very halls. that attack, that siege was criminal behavior, plain and simple, and it's behavior, we, the fbi, view as domestic terrorism. it's got no place in our democracy and tolerating it would make a mockery of our nation's rule of law. >> we start the hour with our favorite reporters and friends. former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi, frank is back. plus "the new york times" diplomatic correspondent michael crowley is here. at the table with me for the house is the top official for

the department of justice msnbc legal analyst andrew wiseman is here. andrew, is this a sign of how far the frame has shifted? christopher wray is now regularly malaligned by folks like lindsey graham who, in defense of donald trump's named selection to lead the fbi, kash patel, says things like we got to clean out the ranks. who did christopher wray not clean out in lindsey graham's view? >> yeah. this is -- it's not fact-based. this is entirely made up as you pointed out. christopher wray was donald trump's choice after doing something that really was unprecedented, which is firing an fbi director not for cause. they claim that there was some cause but it was -- that was clearly a ruse. doing this again violates the

whole idea of an apolitical cal position at the fbi and lindsey graham making those statements is -- i think we need state enforcement and i think the story on so many of these things. if you don't have the senate and the house being up in arms with saying we -- as christopher wray just pointed out, they were the victims and if they are not sort of upholding their own sense of being a victim and also the rule of law and you don't see that coming now from whoever becomes the head of the fbi, you're going to really need to see the only sort of turn effect will be, i would think, in blue states and red states that have sort of law and order people in them because, other than that,

you may not see sort of the federal government taking any action with respect to people who are pardoned are or ople taking these kinds of actions. >> the thing about threat environment is the threats are what the threats have and the human beings only enter in in terms of their eyes are wiped open and able to see them and whether they have the political space to sound an alarm of what they are. a threat environment is a threat environment. christopher wray described it, as we played. let me show you his efforts to sort of defend his claim on the truth with a very, i guess, skeptical is the kindest thing to say about her. harriet hegman. >> mr. wray, from the twitter files, missouri versus biden disclosures, the durham investigation and report, and exposure and collapse of the russian collusion hoax, the

american people fully understand that there is a two-tiered justice system that has been weaponized to persecute people based on their political beliefs and that you have personally worked to weaponize the fbi against conservatives. director wray, what are you prepared to do to reform federal law enforcement in a manner which earns back the trust of the american people? >> first off, i would disagree with your characterization of the fbi and your description of my own approach. the idea that i'm biased against conservatives seems somewhat insane to me, given my own personal background. as to how we are approaching our work of protecting the american people and upholding the constitution, it starts with me having emphasized to all of our folks over and over and over again in everything we do that we need to do the right thing in the right way and that means following the facts wherever they lead, no matter who likes it. >> in christopher wray's telling, it is clear that by him

saying there, i emphasize to my people over and over again in everything we do, we need to do the right thing in the right way and that means following the facts wherever they lead no matter who likes it. this is an agency nine years in to trump's efforts. trump's first effort at weaponizing the rule of law is when he asked jim comey to see to let mike flynn go and it happens, i think, two weeks -- less than two weeks in to his first term. this effort to malalign the fbi, this member of congress saying these things to a lifelong republican in christopher wray, accusing him of persecuting atives and working perm to work the fbi against conservatives that is the line of fire and i wonder how far in the brain washing and disinformation we find ourselves now in this transition? >> trump and his millions have

spent years laying the groundwork for where we are right now. that is when you try to talk sensibly and sievely with someone in the maga movement about this perception of a deep state, you hit the wall almost immediately. they have totally swallowed the pill with regard to the russia investigation, the mistreatment of january 6th defendants, and on and on. we are about to see donald trump become the first president to fire two fbi directors. there is really no more politicizing of the fbi than that, firing the head of the agency for political reasons. the cardinal sins for christopher wray, i think, are two. first, he had the audacity to speak the truth on capitol hill and call january 6th what it is, domestic terrorism. and he has refused to bend or break the attorney general

guidelines with regard to opening cases simply because a group or a person is an enemy of donald trump. there should be deep concern about not only a diminishment of resources that had been beefed up to fight domestic terrorism as chris wray says is the most lethal form of domestic terrorism is the far right hate based terror but spinning the rest of the resources on to far left. the problem with that is i've yet to see the actual legal predication in a far left organization. it's not to say we didn't see violence and riots that we didn't see people that might call themselves antifa doing violent things. but to the full-blown cases investigation i've not seen that on a solid organizational structure. what is going to happen? you have to fabricate the predication. i wouldn't put it past the nominees for a.g. and director to do just that. >> what does that look like, though? i mean, you can't do that on

your own. where do you find partners for an effort like what you're describing, rank inside the fbi. >> there is going to be plenty of partners across the intel agency. dhs. every one of these cabinet level positions is going to be loyal to trump and trump alone. the u.s. attorneys are going to all be dismissed, as is traditional, by the way, with a new president origin. they are going to be replaced, though, with trump loyalists so you could literally have an fbi director in washington and maybe special agents in charge within field offices, swaying some kind of allegiance to trump, along with the chief prosecutor for that judicial district and now you've got a recipe for looking the other way. the partners will be there. there will be certain sheriffs and police chiefs although be happy to be on that task force and they already are. and go along with that. >> michael crowley, i want to bring you in on the other pick

that is raising alarms. nbc news has reported nearly 100 former national security officials are aalarmed at the prospect of tulsi gabbard leading the intelligence community. i'll read from that reporting. nearly 100 former national security officials signed a letter criticizing donald trump's decision to nominate former representative tulsi babbard for director of national intelligence and called for closed-door senate hearings to review any government information about her. in the letter obtained by nbc news, the officials urged the senate to, quote, carefully evaluate whether gabbard is equipped for the position. several of police gabbard's past actions call into chemical weapon her ability to deliver -- the letter says following her trip to syria she alined herself with russian and syrian

officials. that position was created in the september 11th attacks to sort of gather and aggregate intelligence for the consumers, largely, the president. your reporting on the degree of concern and alarm about what frank is talking about, the intersectionality of all of these appointments. >> it's extremely high. some other nominees have been getting more attention and pete hegseth in particular. i think, you know, the national security ramifications, if you take seriously the concerns that are being put forward here of having someone running the intelligence community who some senators clearly believe might be compromised or might be influenced in some way that you can only talk about behind

closed doors, you know, it's very serious. the suggestion that it should be discussed behind closed doors implies that there might be information about her that comes from intelligence, that you can't talk about publicly because it could involve sources and methods. that would get into the terrain of whether there is some kind of espionage angle here or some sort of relationship with another country that we only know through classified means. that is, obviously, extremely serious, but, you know, leave aside the qualification question, leave aside whether she has the experience and the credentials for this job, which, by the way, you know, you mentioned the creation of the national director of intelligence. although the cia director is a much more position, the cia director reports to the director of national intelligence and dni

was created to coordinator was created. you have these questions that people have about really where -- what her world view and where it comes from. the last point i'll make on that. you mentioned the trip to syria and the idea she said things were not consistent with u.s. intelligence. she endorsed a theory promoted by bashar al assad's regime and iran and the russians which ran against a global consensus including the findings of the united nations and that theory was that the assad regime had not used chemical weapons and it was a false flag attack. virtually no one who the u.s. considers a credible messenger

on this subject agreed with that. i'm not aware of anything. it's iran and russia. that is an example. the u.s. intelligence committee had no doubts about this. you have qualifications but a strange question why would she support a theory like that a that seems to have no basis. certainly among credible sources in the united states. >> it's not consistent with what rubio said. if lure for consistency, no thread that runs through them either. >> absolutely. i want to say something when he was talking about qualifications. leave aside her views. let's talk about her qualifications and the same thing could be said for kash patel, people are simply not qualified. i want to tell you a story when i first got to the fbi and i would be given either the

presidential daily brief or the precurser to the presidential daily brief which is a winder that -- binder that ends up with the president. the first week of seeing that, your jaw is on the ground. it is page after page after page of different threat streams. what is so necessary and i remember talking to the head of national security at the fbi how did they know which ones was most serious? everything was, obviously, followed up on. i would watch the director and deputy director and the a.g. and other people say what is going on page 2 on this one? on page 7 on this one. and knowing that triage function. i remember director mueller saying, it's no long longer the case that there won't be something in our holdings identifying a problem. the issue is knowing what sort of -- to do the triage. what is the one you really need to worry about. where do you focus?

you need to have -- it was remarkable it me. you need to have that experience and that sixth sense of where to look. it is so important that your people with that depth of knowledge and experience to keep the country safe. my reaction would have been like it was undifferentiated and it all looks terrible. their sort of remarkable ability to single out what are the ones that are most problematic so you're sort of focusing your resources on the things that could really most likely hurt americans. to me, the idea that donald trump having been president for four years, having the opportunity to see the pdb, the presidential daily brief, wouldn't have that as the top of mind would be who is going to be the best person to do that triage, to bring to me as president the things that are most concerning to the american public? it should be the absolute number

one reason that you're saying this is my nominee. >> the best people. >> yes. >> is the thing that trump isn't even arguing. there is much more coming up. national security risks ahead and the potential new cabinet. second trump presidency. also ahead, we reported yesterday that the biden white house is discussing preemptive pardons for those on donald trump's publicly stated enemies list. now we know president joe biden is in on those discussions and we will ask andrew what that means. later on, reproductive rights have been a ballot winner in state after state including deep red states. now republicans in one state where voters enshrined abortion access in to their constitution are saying not so fast. how they are working to undo the will of the voters there and what they are doing to stop them. ll of the voters there and what they are doing to stop

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frank, i want to read more reporting in "the washington post." the mass deportation. let me read this. deportation let me read this

i think historically that is against the rule of law and i wonder how in light of the last conversation these groups maybe hear something different and don't feel there is rans to what they -- resistance to what they seek to do? >> this is the emboldening and enabling of militia groups. in particular, i would focus on two border states where there are constitutional sheriffs who have large posses and they call them the sheriff's posse and they are deputized and train with the sheriff's instructors. i would say if i had to do some

priskt protective analysis you'll seen certain people in arizona and texas have citizens gaging in roundups. no way federal agents can do this by themselves. absolutely not believe ble ablen happen. the first you look to is the sheriffs and counties in those two states. >> let me read more from wp. .

>> so just to add to the sort of scariness of what you've addressed and frank saying this could be sort of deputized private citizens is their use of the military domestically. that is something that is rarely seen. we know that secretary esperg got in heap of trouble saying that is not happen. miley denounced that also. they are sort on part of the enemy's list because they stood up to the rule of law. >> yeah. >> and the idea that frank is absolutely right that the sort of federal law enforcement is not equipped to do the sort of mass deportation so you'll see sort of state and locals, but you could also see the president using the military domestically.

at what we have been talking about the first segment and now is basically america looking more and more like hungary and russia. there is a ueprint we are about to confront and the way to expand globally. this is america following a well run and worn model of authoritarian. there will be ways to try to bring it to the courts. but the president has enormous power here. >> michael crowley, this is precisely the issue that inspires general john kelly to speak out on tape days ahead of the election, this deployment of the united states military on domestic soil used against american citizens. this is the thing as andrew says that lands general mark miley

and mark esper, on the enemies list and what trump describes as, quote, the enemy within. none of this is inevitable. it seems that if the republican senators don't want america to resemble hungary and russia but america, they don't have to confirm the people because the thing that gets the people like mark miley and esper, on the enemies list they were saying, no, we are not going to do that. where do national security experts see the awes of senate republicans saying this is a bit much? >> well, nicole, i think people still aren't sure how it's going to play out. we are in a very volatile moment. i think the people who are concerned about the appointments like hegseth and gabbard.

how much does that really inform the other positions? we did see trump offer some public support to hegseth at a moment when he is just facing so many allegations, so many factors that would totally nuke any other nominee in any other era in american politics. i think what happened with gaetz has provided some hope and optimism to people who think that some of these nominees are very irresponsible. at the same time, you know, as i said, in any other era, some of these people would have been knocked down right out of the gate and you wouldn't be having these debates. i think there is anxiety and you saw that the in the letter coming out today regarding gabbard and needs to be closed

door hearings and they understand there is not a slam dunk and she understands a chance to being confirmed and essentially there has to be a case made against her in public by her opponents to try to convince the senate that this is -- that this is irresponsible. but, you know, there is a feeling in washington right now that when it comes to some important issues, the substance is subordinate to what people feel they are supposed to do for donald trump. >> that is so perfectly put. a moment in which we are all doing all of our jobs. frank and michael, thank you both for your candor. when we come back, we will get andrew wiseman to weigh in on the news that the biden white house and president joe biden, himself, are considering preemptive pardons for the folks who find themselves on donald trump's received enemies list. trump's received enemies list.

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what is this all about? preemptive pardons, for heaven's sake. >> this is ridiculous. donald trump has never been about retribution. >> i am your retribution. i am your retribution. >> donald trump has been stopping these agencies from being weaponized against we the people and frankly from being weized against him. >> revenge does take time. i will say that. >> it does. >> sometimes revenge can be just i have had. >> this is a left continuing their crazy and antics and cr

concerns. >> crazy concern or not, a pretty significant update to the story today on the issue of preemptive pardons for named targets of the second trump administration. nbc news is now reporting that president joe biden, self is a part of the conversations with his senior staff according to two sources familiar with the discussions. quote, while the discussions have included certain names including senator-elect adam schiff and liz cheney the progress has not progressed to the point of consensus on an actual list. if you were offered a pardon and you're those three people, what would you advise them to do? >> i would say first about nomenclature which is that i think that the right, by calling this sort of preemptive pardons, is trying to sort of make it sound like something it's not,

which is one way that i think that the biden administration is thinking about it is protective. in other words, that it's a protective pardon given the threat that has been verbalized. >> publicly. >> exactly. and so the idea would be for people who are just doing their job, so anthony fauci, adam schiff, mark bailey, esper and liz cheney, people in government to go what they were called on to do, they shouldn't pay the enormous price not just a criminal investigation, but even potentially worse than that and then just vindicate the fact they didn't do anything wrong. and so this is protective of them. what they should do, i think that is a very difficult and individualized determination. i couldn't imagine liz cheney, somebody who thinks you know what? i didn't do anything wrong. i'm not accepting it.

it doesn't mean it shouldn't be offered to her and she can say i can withstand this and i have the rurs who can withstand it. take, hypothetical. someone who works for liz cheney, who doesn't have the wherewithal. say they have young kids. all sorts of personal things and resources that could lead someone to think, you know what? i am going to to accept it even though i did nothing wrong because i don't want to put myself, i don't have the ability to live through this and i want to go ahead and live my life. >> the list includes a bunch of people that donald trump appointed like barr and john walton and esper and milee and all of the lawyers, pat cipollone is on there and all sorts of people. here is a look.

those folks know up close and personal how vindictive he is and they also more understanding than i think anyone who covers trump how far he is willing to do in this pledge for retribution. what do you think those people will do? >> first, i think the reason that they would be on a list that kash patel would have them go in appendix in his book is, in part d maybe this will be carried out, but, in part, just having him there is the damage. it is saying even if you are a trump appointee that, you know, you need to remember this is a loyalty test. you are -- i can't believe i'm saying this or doing this, as jim comey say you to play a loyalty to a person over your locality in your oath to the constitution. and by saying your name bill barr, just take him as an

example, the only possible reason for him being there has to be sort of his actions and not going along with the coup which is not committing the ultimate felony of felonies for the attorney general of the united states and this is a way of saying, even you all who are trump appointees and loyal throughout almost the entire time but had a line, that line is the one that you have to cross if you were going to not make it on to this list. >> you're on the list. what would you do if offered a pardon? >> i have no idea. there is a part of me just very much thinks about the fact i didn't do anything wrong and, you know, so it's like, why would i possibly need a pardon? it's worth noting, though, that even -- even the people who are offered pardons who accept pardons, that doesn't really end the way in which the administration can still attack people and just to depersonalize

it and to go back to our conversation about ungary. you can civil suits and you can have tax audits and vigilante justice, our conversation, if you have vaj have lith vanity - vigilante -- i think a complicated issue for the white house, is one that -- it's not a panacea. >> all protective? >> right. >> the other thing that is interesting is swatting has been so common. people didn't talk at the beginning but once they realized it happened to everyone in the arena. the people who protect are the people in law enforcement and the fbi. >> absolutely. >> thank you for talking to us about it. you're sticking around. when we come back, how

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restored as soon as today but public state legislatures are working overtime to roll back the will of the voters as expressed four weeks ago. propublica report that they are working on ballot measures that would undo the state's abortion rights ballot initiative passed in november. quote, one measure would ask voters to amend the state constitution to define life as beginning at conception and impairing that embryos are work to people and the pursuit of happiness. the result would be to claf abortion as unlawful killing. other are restricting access to cases of rape, incest, medical emergencies and fetal ies and the measures would propose mandating that rape survivors file police reports to obtain an abortion. these kinds of extreme and anti-democratic maneuvers are

isolated to missouri and are happening everywhere. joining our company pro publica jeremy collier and georgetown law school professor and author of a book, michelle goodwin is back. let me start with the reporting on this. take me inside what propublica has sort of reported out as quick, quick efforts to undo the will of the voters just four week, ago? >> this week was the first week that bills could be filed for the next legislative session. on day one, there was about a dozen bills filed. some would create a ballot initiatives that ultimately go to the public to try to undo what voters just did. i think the republicans in the general assembly are emboldened by the fact that the initiative

only passed by 2%, so it was a very close vote. and they feel like they can go back and with a number of different ways and try to get voters to undo what they just vote to do. >> the missouri measure seems to imperil ivf as some of these efforts have in other places. that is an accurate read? >> it would define an embryo as a human being that cannot be killed. alabama saw the same -- had the same experience and it turned out that that was not what the legislature wanted but it still creates the question about, you know, if you're saying that an embryo is a human being, then you're raising the question can it be destroyed? can it be handled the way that embryos are in the ivf process? so that is a question we see play out in missouri. >> michelle, there is a sense to

shorthand the election results and say that these ithoughts ab efforts which are among the most extreme we have seen since we have been having these conversations. >> so we have been having these conversations for a while and i've been saying that these are truly matters of democracy, so what you see is a dismantling of democracy and it's abors happens to be the blood on the tip of the arrow. when you ignore the will of the voters if the voters go to a ballot initiative, theprevails. when you have lawmakers who think they don't have to pay attention to that is not paying attention to matters of democracy. it's people caring about the health care and right and freedom but the broader di

-- dismantling is an undermining of abortion rights and constitutionalism as we have understood it across centuries in the united states. >> michelle, the abortion rights movement has turned to democratic measures and they have prevailed. the extremists try to undo the democratic measures. what is the next step for the pro democracy pro reproductive health care movement? >> it is to continue to pay attention to the democratic process. voters in missouri that they are unwilling to serve their interest and hopefully take that to the polls. americans have very limited trust in our courts at this time, including the supreme court, but courts are an important aspect of our

democracy and so one would hope that courts are also responsive to the concerns of voters as they have articulated in these ballot initiatives such as that in missouri. >> andrew, this is about to get, i think bleaker, with an administration that doesn't defend the patient's rights. where do you see these cases heading? >> well, i think one thing that because we are going to have so many republican-controlled bodies, that it's really important to focus on something that coulter is working on which is essential gary man jerry may difference derring.

a way to influence the results. you don't like what happened in missouri is there a way to get different voting blocks together that basically do what has been going on for quite a long time? and we have a history in this country, a horrible history with respect to race as to that working. and so i think that is something key. obviously, with respect to the courts, that is still a check but we will have four years of appointments and honestly we can all look to certain judges who, while there are trump judges who have been terrific and spectacular and have done their job, there are others that do not fall into that category and unfortunately, i think, likely be more and we will continue to see the erosion of sort of the rule of law in the courts. >> jeremy, collier, thank you for the reporting and great to talk to you. michelle goodwin, great to talk to you.

andrew eman, thank you for spending the hour for us. we will update on the new york shooting case coming up. us we will update on the new york shooting case coming up.

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surveillance footage. it will be brought to a lab unopened and see if thinking in it can locate the gunman whose identity is still unknown. late today, we learned from the new york police commissioner that there is reason to believe the suspect has left new york city. another break for us. we will be right back. be right .

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>> thank you so much for letting us into your homes for another week of shows, we are so grateful. hi, katie, have a great show. >> thank you and happy holidays, welcome to the beat, we've got a lot to get to tonight, we are going to look at barack obama's new advice for preserving democracy. and the fierce debate about