survive the holidays with samsung, powered by verizon.

hi, everyone, we are so grateful you're here and joining us for this special edition of deadline: white house . with the election in the rearview mirror and what promises to be a turbulent year ahead, to put it mildly, perhaps. now might be a good time to take a deep breath and get our bearings. to get really clear about what is coming and what we can do about it, what role we can play, however small. let's remember what legendary documentarian ken burns has said on this program. quote, history doesn't repeat itself, but it often rhymes. and we have reason to believe that that is probably going to happen when donald trump takes office once again in january. starting with immigration. the president-elect ran on a promise of mass deportations.

heck, the republican national convention was blanketed with signs that read nast mass deportations now. his vice president, jd vance, famously taunted undocumented immigrants, telling them to quote pack your bags, you're going home in six months. this might also be a good time to remember what our dear friend rachel maddow likes to say, watch what they do, not what they say. and what donald trump did right out of the gate was to appoint two of the most unapologetic defenders of his draconian and even by trump standards controversial family separation policy. stephen miller, who will be trump's deputy chief of staff for policy, and tom holman, who will be trump's orders are. when it comes to the two of them, we do not have to guess what they plan to do. tom holman says it all out loud. >> so you are carrying out a targeted enforcement operation. grandma is in the house, she is

undocumented. did she get arrested, too? >> it depends. let the judge decide. we are going to remove people that the judge has already deported. >> is there a way to carry out mass deportation without separating families? >> of course there is. families can be deported together. >> why should a child who is an american citizen half to pack up and move to a country that they don't know? >> because their parent has entered the country illegally, had a child, knowing he was in the country illegally, so he created that crisis. >> there you have it. whole families, including grandma, deported. children potentially as collateral damage, as he said there. that but what can many of us do with that information? for that we look to our and colleague, nbc's jacob so rough, on the front lines of

covering the humanitarian crisis during the trump presidency, reporting assignment that brought jacob face-to-face with the children, the kids were ripped away from their families during trump's first family separation crackdown. >> i got home, i was home for a couple of days, and i was at a kids birthday party when i got another call from katie waltman saying we are going to let you into the epicenter of separations. and that place was called ursula , the central processing center in mcallen, texas. i still remember, i was wearing a light blue button-down shirt, i had my notepad. that was the time where i saw what had been talked about and rumored in the media. kids locked up in cages, sitting on these concrete or linoleum floors. they thought

that showing the world separations through the eyes of people like me, they would scare the people who were attempting to come from coming, and scare congress into allowing them to have more strict immigration laws. >> so you are a tool. >> this, as jacob reported, they thought showing this was the point. showing the cruelty was also a tool. and the voice you heard interviewing jacob is filmmaker errol morris. he and jacob teamed up to turn jacob's searing body of reporting on the family separation crisis into a new film called separated. i was lucky enough to have jacob and errol mars join me on this program to discuss what inspired them to make this film and the urgency of recording for posterity how unprecedented

trump's family separation policy was. >> this represents something different and something new, and it is important to remember and acknowledge that fact. when you are separating a two- month-old nursing infant from his mother, that is a big, big difference. you can hear the head of the department of homeland security, the secretary tell us that we are not doing anything unusual. we are just following the law. and why didn't they do this during the obama administration? obama deported lots and lots of people. why didn't they do this during the obama administration? because they discussed it and decided it was a moral. >> they discussed it and decided it was immoral. that is what stops obama and doesn't stop trump. that is the dividing line. it is possible that it incentivize them.

so, what happens now? joining us to help answer that question, none other than jacob sub rough, nbc news national correspondent, the author of separated, inside an american tragedy, the book on which the new film by errol morris, separated, is based. had an immigration rights lawyer with the aclu, he argues the national class-action challenge to the first trump administration family separation policy. jacob, i start with you. the book and the film are all done without knowledge that trump would be re-elected. he has been. and i wonder if you can just start with what you think your body of reporting will be in the second term. what has been committed to on paper, the kinds of people that are in place, and what, with your knowledge and expertise, you expect them to do on the front of family separation. >> first of all, thank you for

doing the special broadcast about this. i think what a george w. bush appointed judge called one of the most shameful chapters in the history of our country. and i don't think you can understand what will happen in a second trump term unless you look back at what happened in the first. and plainly and simply, you mentioned the signs that we also at the republican national convention, that i got to see myself in person from the floor, that said mass deportation now. i think the baseline thing that everyone needs to understand and remember, and sort of internalize, is that mass deportation is family separation. it is just family separation by another name. it is ripping children away from their parents at the border, it is taking parents away from the children in their homes, at their schools, in their communities, in a way that is orders of magnitude larger than the 5500 children who were deliberately taken away from their parents according to the aclu, and are traumatized for life. positions for human rights said

this was torture according to the u.n. definition of it. the american academy of pediatrics said it was government sanctioned child abuse. and if we think about, and i hope, one day, all 5500 of those children will be able to tell their story of what the trump administration deliberately did to them, and to be really clear, what they deliberately did them was harm them, put them in the cages you are seeing on your screen right now, for no other reason than to scare people from coming to this country because they had some of the most desperate situations on planet earth, in order to basically, in a lot of cases, save their lives and certainly come here for a better one. none of this was an accident. as adam sherwood coined in the atlantic, the cruelty was the point. now they are looking at essentially super sizing what they did in the first term in a second trump administration. >> jacob, if you look at the sort of players on the board, and with your knowledge of where their renditions, for

lack of a better word, were stymied, what is your assessment of how capable this new team will be in carrying out mass deportations? >> both errol morris and i learned in the making of separated, and en route putting the book, that during the first trump term they wanted to separate maybe as many as 20 or 30,000 children from their parents at the border, if they were able to do so. and only because of the work of the aclu and immigration attorneys on the front line who, incidentally, are as important as any first responders. these are literally life-saving roles that these people are doing, looking out for children and parents that are falling through the cracks of the immigration enforcement apparatus. if it wasn't for them, it would've been far, far worse. you have tom hohmann, who caitlin dickerson says in her cover story about family

separation was the intellectual father of the family separation policy and was pushing for it as early as during the obama administration. you have stephen miller, who, as you'll hear in the movie, was calling to nonna senate confirmed political appointees, low-level people within the government, in order to sort of coordinate on immigration enforcement priorities of the first trump term. when i say priorities, i mean ripping apart from their parents . and the list goes on. we don't sort of know the full staffing of all of these agencies, but there are many of them. the department of homeland security, the department of justice, the department of health and human services. all of them had a hand in what became the family separation policy, and all of them will have a hand again in what happens to parents and children who have come to this country in the second trump administration. we are talking about, literally, hundreds of officials , potentially, that they will have the ability to influence in the second term, who some of them may have been part of the

first one. others were part of the first one and try to resist, and may be thrown out of the government in a second. all of that has yet to play out. >> lee, the film, this was something i had a chance to talk to both of you had a screening this week. and the film makes clear that even with what trump perceives to be a mandate, and i think it is debatable whether that is what he actually has an a second term, for what he is talking about here. he was stymied, as jacob said, by republican appointed judges. just talk about the legal hurdles facing him as he starts with this plan, as jacob said, which is essentially a family separation by another name. >> yeah, i think when people see really egregious stuff, whether it is judges, who are looking at the legality, or the public, i think they will push back. and i think you are absolutely right, that whatever mandate he has on immigration may be to reform policies. we want reformed policies, border policies and more

generally. but when you cross the line the american public tends to say wait, that's not what we meant. that's what we saw with family separation. we put the evidence before the judge and he called the policy brutal, as jacob said, a shameful period in our history. we educated them about the cases, and i think that is what the public learned and they took to the streets peacefully, but took to the streets and said not in our name. so we will see what happens going forward. the legal hurdles on family separation, we now have an ironclad consent decree that says no more family separation. we will see if the trump administration tries to get around it, but as jacob pointed out, there are other ways they can try to go about family separation on a massive scale, and force these parents to decide am i going to take my u.s. citizen child to a country they've never seen before? or leave them behind? and one thing the immigration laws do is they provide an enormous amount of discretion.

and if a president really want to be harsh, they can be harsh. but in the past, both democratic and republican administrations have said well, we don't need to tear families apart. we don't need to go after non- criminals who are working hard. and the trump administration is coming in to say we are going to deport millions of people. we don't care if it's a grandmother, we don't care if they have u.s. citizen children. i think the whole country is going to have to push back on that and say wait, that's not what we meant. >> you know, the first time he ran and won him a he ran on building a wall. which doesn't put the family member here illegally in the mind of the voter. to jacob's reporting over the summer, people waved around mass deportations. it is an applause line at trump and vance rallies. how far is the other ring and the fear of the illegal immigrant or asylum seeker or worker, how far do you think we have traveled the country

between 16 and 24? >> i think that's the right question. i do think we have traveled far. there is more anti-immigrant sentiment, and i am depressed about that happening during this three decades, and i think this is the worst. but i am still hopeful that there are lines the american public would not let be crossed. i think one of the things that is a challenge for us, to talk about the human stories and not let this just be abstract principles or statistics. what we saw during the first family separation period was just unconscionable. a little boy was taken away, a four-year-old boy who had glasses, and they took him away but they did not let him get his glasses case. so all day long all the mother was thinking about is will they get him another pair of glasses if they break? will they show him where he can put his glasses at night? an 18-year-old boy being stuffed in a car and the mother could see him craning his little neck to see her as the car drove away without him. and even the families that are now reunited, little children just worrying about being taken away again in the middle of the night.

we were just working with a three-year-old boy who stands by the window every day to look to see if men are going to take him away again. that's what i hope the american public will realize. these are not just aggregate statistics, these are not abstract principles. they are real human lives. it is not mean we don't reform the system. but let's have some amount of humanity when we deal with it. >> i mean, jacob, it is unbearable to hear what amounts to emotional torture of children. in the name of u.s. immigration policy. i wonder what your hopes are for the impact of this film now on the eve of a second trump presidency. >> i think we said the operative word, nicolle. humanity. there is an amazing organization here in california that takes people down to the border called this is about humanity, so that they can see for themselves who is impacted by these policies. and i will never forget reporting with you, i'm having chills just saying this right now, in the summer of 2018, those days between june 13th

and june 20th, from the moment i walked into that 1500 square, excuse me, 250,000 square foot walmart where they were holding over 1000 boys, because most of them have been taken away from their moms and dads when they cross the border, or when i went into the facility in mcallen, texas, you show the video earlier. children locked up in cages, laying on those linoleum floors, under the mylar blankets, in some cases supervised by security contractors in a watchtower. i had never seen anything like it, and i don't think the american public had ever been exposed to anything like that. certainly not to the degree of the family separation policy. and what it led to was not even a bipartisan outrage. it was really a universal outrage, where people all around the world came out into the streets. it did not matter your political party or persuasion, no demographic area mattered. the pope spoke out about this, in a way where everybody, no matter if you were far right or

far left, absolutely condemned what the trump administration was doing to those children. and i think that, sadly, people have wanted to know less about what is going on with our immigration system because of the way that immigration has looked during the last four years of the biden administration. and my hope is that we can come back to a place where we can have a common sense, clear eyed conversation about who the people are that are coming to the country, why they're coming to this country. they're all fellow human beings and we should treat each other as such. we all did it. i know we did it. we did it together in the summer 2018, and i know we can do it together again. that is part of the reason why we made this film, to remind people in this moment of what happened, what was possible in the negative sense, but also sort of an inspirational, positive sense about how people within the government fought back, came out to the streets to fight back, and it was once again policy reversal of the last trumpet term. he said i did not like the site of the families being

separated. he sat there in the oval office and signed an order reversing the policy with kirstjen nielsen standing over his shoulder, the same person that signed the policy and the place in the first place. and that kind of action by the american public as possible again. >> i am just lapping up both of your optimism's and positivity, but you're right, i'm going to ask both of you to stick around. i'm going to show more of the film and other heroes, people like yourself who helped jacob and errol tell the story. also ahead, when we come back, what does this mean right now for the more than 4 million children who are u.s. citizens living with a mom or a dad who is undocumented? wondering what is going to happen to their family if and when donald trump unleashes another family separation crackdown. and a tool that each of us has at our fingertips right now, the role of outrage and public outcry this inflection point.

something to keep your eyes on, all those stories and more when deadline: white house continues after a quick rake. don't go anywhere. anywhere. with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ [music playing] interviewee: my son is winston, and he is eight months old. my son has a brain tumor. my parents have donated for years, ever since i was a child. i remember my mom talking about st. jude. i just never thought that i would ever need them. narrator: today, you can give a gift like no other, a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital save lives. interviewee 2: anybody who is supporting this organization, i'm not sure that they know the impact that they're having.

narrator: when you call or go online with your credit or debit card right now, we'll send you this st. jude t-shirt you can wear to show your support. interviewee 1: it means everything. thank you for the future of my son. interviewee 2: i couldn't be more thankful. interviewee 3: st. jude will always have a place in my heart.

the future of cool, comfortable sleep is here. introducing the new sleep number climate cool smart bed. the only smart bed in the world that actively cools and effortlessly adjusts to both of you. sleep up to 15 degrees cooler on each side. it actively cools by drawing warm air away from your body, to keep you cool and comfortable throughout the night. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. and now, save 20% on the new climatecool smart bed, plus free home delivery. shop now at a sleep number store near you.

>> i hope if he is elected and does family separation again, the outrage is the same. i hope that the american public has not become desensitized to it. five years later we are still trying to reunite up to 1000 children. it is not over. these children are not all back with their parents, and they are suffering. but he must believe that we are past the point of the public getting outraged again, because he has said i will do it again. >> our answer to the question pretty soon, our panel is back

with us. the public response, judges appointed by conservative republicans, describing the policy as brittle and likening it to child abuse and trauma. there is reason, all those things are still in place. whether we are exactly the same country i think is an open question. but we still have an ability if we see something that crosses the line, to do something. back to the kinds of people who are on the board, there is home and and miller and also kristi noem, who has been tapped to lead dhs, and matt gaetz at doj. none of those appointments had the ability to deprive the country of the brakes, independent judges, public outrage, journalists who are invited into the facility to see the policy.

but what, on a sort of logistical level, are they talking about in terms of having to display some competence that we have never seen? how do you move millions of people around the country to send them anywhere? >> i think that's a good question, and i think there will be logistical difficulties. whether they've been working on it for four years and preparing, they say they have, we will have to see. but there definitely will be just a call difficulties. right now it is time for everyone to take stock of where they're going to be and not to despair. and there are big things we can all do, but i think people need to just think well, i can do one little thing. i always worry, especially with young people, that they think this is too big for me to do anything about so i am going to sit it out. do any little thing. if you are a lawyer, a young lawyer, take one case, one person who has faced removal back to danger, or tutor a

young child who's trying to learn english. just something. join the march. we really need to not despair, and there are serious judges on the bench who will call out illegality. we are being clear eyed about what we can accomplish in the courts, but we are going to try. it also is going to take that national effort. i think any civil rights lawyer throughout time will tell you the courts are one part of it, but it takes a national movement. so there are going to be harsh things that are going to happen, that we are not going to stop and we are clear eyed about that. there are egregious things like family separation where we all need to come together and say wait, that is not what we meant about immigration reform. >> let me play another clip from the film and show folks the impact. >> when did you become aware of separations? >> our field staff started to

notice very young kids, tender age, anyone below five. that is kind of unusual, most of the time when you have a kid that young yard traveling with a parent. jim delacruz was the supervisor of all the federal field staff. he had his team keep a spreadsheet. it was growing, growing, growing with the number of kids. >> one of the issues i raised to scott loyd as a concern was we ran out of meds for babies. we were seeing so many babies, but the babies can't tell you they were separated. we were very concerned that some children's separations would be permanent.

because the parents would be removed from the united states through deportation. so the families had made the journey together, but now the children would remain in the united states while the parents were returned to home country. >> these are state created portions. >> these are families separated by action of the federal government, as a tool of immigration policy. >> it boggles the mind that government workers had to take that tragic reality and send an email that jonathan white had to send the email that said we are seeing so many babies that the babies can't tell you they were separated. how do you find the parents of a baby? >> right, that is one of the problems, the judge commented that it seems like the federal government keeps better track of property than children. that was one of the major parts of this, that we had no records.

so we are still searching for some families now, six years later. the trump administration gave us just these records, we think the parent might be in this country, or maybe they are at this address. so we created a steering committee with three ngos, the women's refugee commission, kids in need of defense, and justice in motion, with a great law firm, paul weiss. they helped look for all the families and did unbelievable good. but sometimes it required on the ground, going town to town looking for these parents. so now we have little children who have been without their parents for six years. they will not even remember their parents. and some of the parents are coming back now, there is no relationship anymore. and that is so heartbreaking to see the parent trying to rebuild the relationship. and everyone talks about the children's trauma, and that is understandable, and that is right. but also, the parents. imagine a parent, where the

first thing the child comes back and says to you mommy, didn't you love me enough to keep me? why don't you fight for me? when i went el salvador i met a man who said his child got off the plane, sent him back to el salvador after months, and the first thing he said, literally, is poppy, why didn't you want me anymore. so there is so much to rebuild, but it was so gratuitous. and the idea that the parents were not going to come at all, because that was the purpose, that we are going to make it so cruel that people won't come anymore. when i talked to families, when i met them and said would you have come anyway if you had known your child was going to be taken, they would shrug and say what choice did i have? i could not let my child be killed, i could not be killed. and there is the idea that people are here illegally if they are applying for asylum. asylum has been in the law forever, and we said after world war ii that we would never again send people back to danger without at least screening them. and that is what people are trying to eliminate now. no screenings, even. not even a basic hearing. so they are not here illegally, they are trying to apply for

asylum, and it was just a flat out gratuitous cruelty. the worst thing i've seen in my 30 years doing this work. >> doesn't take a toll on you? >> you know, i think it takes a toll on everyone who does this work. but ultimately you see the clients, and you can't really say well, i am suffering. that is not to minimize the advocates who are on the ground, seeing it every day. they are really going through a lot. but ultimately, what keeps you going is seeing these families trying to persevere, and how much they're going through. and you know you just need to keep fighting. >> it is a lesson for anyone sort of feeling disappointed about the election, that there is someone hurting more, more scared, you can go help them. thank you very much. this always incredible, you are incredible with talking to us. jacob sticks around. when we come back we're going to talk to jacob and two more experts about what trump's promise for the future of mass deportations means for families and for the broader american

economy. don't go anywhere. with who yo? get back to better breathing with fasenra, an add-on treatment for eosinophilic asthma taken once every 8 weeks. fasenra is not for sudden breathing problems. serious allergic reactions may occur. get help for swelling of your face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. don't stop your asthma treatments without talking with your doctor. tell your doctor if your asthma worsens or you have a parasitic infection. headache and sore throat may occur. ask your doctor if fasenra is right for you. it's hard to say who'll be more excited on the day after christmas. the guy who got a brand new truck from mom and dad. or the guy who got all the weathertech protection for his truck. like laser measured floorliners... the under seat storage system... no drill mud flaps... impact liner with shock absorbing rings... and top it off with the alloy cover. find these american made gifts or get a gift card instantly at wt.com. (♪♪) (high five)

it is inevitable. chloe! hey dad. they will grow up. [cheering] silly face, ready? discover who they are. [playing music] what they want from this world. and how they will make it better.

and while parenting has changed, how much you care has not. that's why instagram is introducing teen accounts. automatic protections for who can contact them and the content they can see. ♪♪ >> if you believe that immigrants are an existential threat to the american way of life, and i do think that is how some of these folks think, then once you have exhausted

all the ordinary things the law permits, and all that is left for those people for whom anything is possible is to do something extraordinary in its cruelty. and that is what happened here. extraordinary in its cruelty. that is what happened here. that is what possibly could happen here again. joining our conversation is dr. william lopez, he is a professor at the university of michigan school of public health, offered author of the book separated, family and community in the aftermath of an immigration raid. his forthcoming book, ice in the heartland focuses on the communitywide impacts of immigration raids at work sites. also joining us is andrea florez, she served as an immigration policy adviser for the obama and biden administrations. she is now working with a

bipartisan group that advocates for reforming immigration policy. jacob is still here, as well. andrea, let me start with you. some of this is made possible by the fact that immigration animates voters to vote for politicians that advocate the harshest policies available. and the facts of the november election are that kamala harris was the one who backed a very, very tough, almost all republican policy idea bill that would have solved the problem, or gone a long way towards solving it, and trump killed that bill. but it feels like the debate in this country rages around emotional axes, not facts like that. what is the policy solution that gets at the emotional rage people feel around this issue. >> one of the biggest issues in this election is that democrats were not actually campaigning on a policy solution the voters could understand. because what voters have seen for the last four years was that president biden had

promised to one, keep families together, fix our immigration system, pursue immigration reform. but what they actually saw over the last four years was gross mismanagement at the border, and an inability to respond when governor abbott started busting asylum-seekers into cities. and the answer that was often given by the white house was there is nothing to be done about these challenges. because the law was broken. but voters chose president biden's immigration agenda once over trump, because he promised to bring humanity and order. but those promises were not delivered. so when vice president harris campaigned on a bill that was a d.c. insider talking point, it did not really address what communities had experienced when suddenly there were more immigrants in their communities and there was no federal plan to welcome them, house them, connect them with work permits, and that was one of the biggest strategic missteps over the last four years.

emma kratz need to get back to talking about an affirmative vision for immigration reform and one that connects to what voters are concerned about today. >> what does that sound like, andrea? what is the message, and what is , you know, can you reverse the gains that the republicans and donald trump made among people that have never voted for republican in their life, but they are so exasperated and frustrated that nothing seems to be happening? >> you can absolutely reverse the gains. some of the longtime policy goals of the democratic party remain popular, and they remained popular in this election. legalizing the long-term undocumented is a popular issue. heaping families together and protecting them from separation is a popular issue. but you did not hear democrats campaign on that. you saw them attempt to mimic what republicans have been saying consistently for eight years. which is that immigration is the source of every policy

problem. when jd vance talked about immigrants being part of the housing problem, where was the response to that? and where was the narrative that actually the federal reserve was talking about, that the economists were talking about, that, but for immigrants coming for the united states in the last four years, our economic recovery would have been much worse. however, democrats do have to re-center the interests of american communities, and those that receive immigrants. because if there is not a plan for when we welcome immigrants, if we are not working with the mayors and governors and making sure that the impacts on the working class, on people of color, on other immigrant communities who are already there, then you can see tensions rising. and good, modern immigration policy that allows people to come in in an orderly and predictable way is far more popular than what president trump is promising to do, which is potentially remove the parents of 4 million u.s. children. those extreme policies have not been popular, and i do not believe that is what the electorate was choosing. i believe they were voting against the disorder that they had seen under democrats.

>> yeah, bill, let me ask you about what is ahead, and how it will impact the economy, potentially, and workplaces. >> sure, that is a great question. as we all know, immigrants are an important and critical part of this economy. you see the removal of immigrants will leave much of this work often undone. i think it is also important to note that there is also this element of fear and what we call it spillover effects of immigration enforcement, and what that means is it is not only the deportations themselves that shape the lives of families in the u.s., but also the fear of these deportations. when families are scared of the possibility of deportation, they go to stores less, they drive less, they engage in the normal finance and commerce of their community less. and they certainly use social security, excuse me, social support services left, impacting their health and ultimately costing the economy

more later, too. >> i'm going to ask all of you to stick around. i have to sneak in a quick break. we will all be back on the other side. other side. giving that's possible through the power of dell ai with intel. so those who receive can find the joy of giving back. ♪ [♪ that's the glory of love. ♪] jorge has always put the ones he loves first. but when it comes to caring for his teeth he's let his own maintenance take a back seat. well maybe it's time to shift gears on that. aspen dental has complete, affordable care all under one roof. plus $29 exams and x-rays for new patients without insurance and 20% off treatment plans for everyone. making it easier to get started with quality care. it's one more way aspen dental is in your corner. —no peeking. —okay. okay. ♪♪ open. ♪♪

♪♪ over 600,000 usps employees working in sync to ensure everything sent on its holiday ride ends with a moment of joy. ♪♪ the united states postal service.

>> during the obama administration, the idea had come up in dhs, and secretary johnson had said that they would not separate children from their parents, it was inhumane. it was very clear to me that i was not going to win any arguments. i did say these policies would have the effect of overwhelming the office of refugee resettlement capacity. it would lead to a backup into border patrol. because i know that was something that had persuasive value. and the answer i got in the room was only at first, then there will be a deterrent effect. i took that back to my superiors in the department of health and human services. i spent a little bit of time talking about how it would be harmful to children, but frankly, i did not spend as much time on that as i did on how it would be harmful to the program. because harm to children was part of the point.

they believed that it would terrify families into not coming. >> we are back. i wonder, bill, if you could just talk about the asymmetry. there are drawbacks to these policies that, at a humanity level, at an empathy level, are universally a print. but there are policy aims that rely on that revulsion. and i wonder how you outmaneuver policies designed to have the emotional impact they are having , and still protect people, if that makes sense. >> yeah, i think this is an excellent point. what we saw during the trump administration is an absolutely , the cruelty was the point. and much of the immigration enforcement tools selected by former president trump were meant to be visible, and were meant to be deterrence.

we saw this certainly in the family separation crisis on the texas mexico border, but we saw it also in the worksite raids that happened in summer of 2018 at the same time. they were meant to be visible spectacles that change the behavior of immigrant communities. at the same time as gathering energy among his base. trump originally also proposed the border wall, but saw that to be too expensive and too laborious. so salsa types of immigration he can engage in, such as smaller momentary pockets throughout the country, this was certainly part of the point. to your question, what we do about these policies that are meant to be visible? we can often combat them by telling stories and doing what we can to be visible about their impacts on the other side of this, jacob, of course, errol did a great job of this in their documentary, separated, which shows the impact of these separations on the southern border. we also need to continue having these discussions, engaging in

our research that shows ultimately what the harms of this immigration enforcement is. to individuals and families, but also across communities, regardless of race and regardless of immigration status. >> jacob, it comes back to the body of reporting ahead for you, my friend. i wonder, if you look at sort of the deployment, both of the cruelty, not even sparing children, and the revulsion of the public projected onto what is promised, what is ahead, which is mass deportations on the scale that in human history has very few chapters to even turn to. i mean, are they planning on using trains? are they planning on using buses? who drives them? are they planning on using planes? when added and desantis moved a few dozen people around it had a paralyzing effect area the idea of moving millions of people around has sweeping, sweeping societal and economic impacts.

and i wonder if you are seeing any flickers of objection from the business community, business leaders. >> i think there is a duty, i think we have a duty to do exactly what we did in the first trump administration. and actually, what we did during the biden administration as well, which is wholly mirror up to society to show them exactly what is happening, whether or not they want to see it themselves. and i do think people have wanted to know less over the course of the last four years about what this all looks like. but i have to say, it is a profound honor to be on here with dr. lopez and andrea, both, they know more about this than almost anybody i can no can tell you about it in ways far beyond what i am capable of . but they both referred to, and you heard jonathan white refer to it in a clip from the movie, the obama administration deterrence, i think we have a duty as journalists to point out that deterrence has been the underlying philosophy of the united states immigration enforcement apparatus for decades, under democrats and republicans both. bill clinton built the first

wave of order walls. george w. bush created dhs, as you know, in the wake of 9/11, but also increased exponentially the size of the border patrol. barack obama deported more people than any president in the history of the united states, which is why like that donald trump was able to separate 5500 children from their parents. like it was nothing. the system was set up in that way. and while, as andrea said, president biden promised a fair and safe and orderly system, a humane system, we ended up seeing under the biden administration was anything but. everybody can close their eyes and remember del rio, migrants under the bridge, the horses there. the haitians, i went to haiti and saw people being deported back to a country where in all likelihood they could be killed themselves because of the gang violence there. i watch the biden

administration deport more people to haiti than ever before. we look at what the next four years are going to be like for folks in our line of work, it is a duty to show people that policies like this have not stop people from coming to this country, and the probably never will, which is why, as andrea said, a new approach is really i think we are all looking for, and what that actually would look like. >> dr. lopez and andrea flores, we will continue to call on you, thank you for spending time with us today. we are going to sneak in one more break. jacob and i will be back on the other side. other side. standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ at humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you, and part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. humana can help. with original medicare you're covered for

hospital stays and doctor office visits, but you'll have to pay a deductible for each. a medicare supplement plan pays for some or all of your original medicare deductibles, but they may have higher monthly premiums and no prescription drug coverage. humana medicare advantage prescription drug plans include medical coverage. plus, prescription drug coverage with $0 copays on hundreds of prescriptions. most plans include coverage for dental, vision, even hearing. and there's a cap on your out-of-pocket costs! so, call or go online today to see if there's a humana plan in your area and to get our free decision guide. the medicare annual enrollment period ends on december 7th, so call now. humana - a more human way to healthcare. (♪♪) today, you can give a gift like no other. a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital save lives. i think it's the most worthwhile place

to put your money when it comes to childhood cancer. if it weren't for st. jude, i wouldn't be sitting here today. if it weren't for st. jude, a lot of kids wouldn't be with their families every day. let's come together to help the children of st. jude fight childhood cancer visit this website, call this number, or scan the qr code with your $19 monthly donation. join with your debit or credit card right now, and we'll send you this st. jude t-shirt you can proudly wear to show your support. today, you can help st. jude save lives it takes a heart for somebody to say, i have this extra that i'm willing to give to st. jude so that they can help save more lives. [music playing] how are folks 60 and older having fun these days? family cookouts! ♪♪ playing games! ♪♪ dancing in the par... (high pitched sound)

(high pitched sound) (high pitched sound)

jacob, i think i said this to you after the election, when i first saw the film it was before we knew the outcome of the election. i watched it again after trump prevailed, and won the popular vote, and swept the swing states. and after taking in all of your reporting at the convention with the mass deportations now signs. i wonder if you can just contextualize sort of our marching orders as a public, and i know you feel like you have yours, you've got your mirror and your beat, but as a

country, what is our marching order? what is our obligation to keep our eyes on this space, as rachel maddow might say? >> more than anything, keep our eyes open. i really feel like in the last four years the general public, a lot of us who were very invested in what was happening to the children during the trump administration decided that we wanted to know less. it was too complicated, it was too messy, it was hard to see or stomach or understand. and that is why wanted to do this. the film is both a forensic examination of the policy under the trump administration by an academy award-winning director with an academy award-winning team, but it's also a reminder of what this all look like and how everyone came together in order to stop it. and i think unless folks are paying attention, i know there's a desire to tune out, to turn away, to walk away from something people feel is scary or dangerous. or a reminder of a very dramatic four years for a lot of people out there. now is not the time to do that.

now is the time to redouble, to open our eyes, i talked to lindsay from the immigrant law center, she said to me the other day we had 30 lawyers under the first trump term, we have 200 ready to go right now. there are people on the front lines who are preparing for the type of deliberate cruelty, and again, that is me as a journalist saying this, it's not my opinion. the deliberate cruelty of the first trump administration. they are saying that it will come again, and if you are turning away you are not going to see it, you will not react to it in a way that will stop them from doing what they wanted to do the first time around. >> yeah, those of the things, people want to turn away, but they want to know how they can help. they can help by not turning away. jacob, thank you so much for spending this hour with us, and for bringing during these truly extraordinary times. we're grateful. good evening and welcome to