rachel maddow is here with reporting ahead of a new msnbc film airing tonight. examining the family separation policy. i'm ayman mohyeldin. let's do it. in all the chaos surrounding donald trump's nominations, most has been focused on the salacious alleged rape, pedophilia, alcoholism, and pete hegseth's mother calling him an abuser of women. that makes sense. these are shocking and troubling charges. these scandals serve as a distraction from something else that is happening with donald

trump's incoming team. something more prevalent and something that reveals a lot about what donald trump's second term will be all about. trump has assembled a team of billionaires and multimillionaires, some with serious conflicts of interest. and some with questionable intentions to run his administrations. having someone wealthy serving in government is not inherently a bad thing. take for example franklin roosevelt known as a traitor to his class for taking on the rubber barons. roosevelt, a wealthy man himself, called them economic royalists and famously said he welcomed their hatred as he delivered a new deal that helped build the american working class and rescue the poor. trump and his nominees are not heirs to roosevelt. they are heirs to the robber barons and economic royalists that fdr went to war with and they will threaten the american

social safety net which is shaky compared to other wealthy nations. it starts we elon musk. he is the top political donor in america which is a way of saying h e is the billionaire who paid for the largest legal bribe during the election. more than $250 million. did he contribute all of this money because he really, really loves american politics or has he essentially bought himself at trump's table because of how intertwined all of his businesses are with government contracts, discussing his plans to downside federal agencies. we know republicans have dreamed of downsizing government by cutting social security medicare and medicaid.

trump's billionaire avengers looks to be privatizing. during the campaign, trump was auctioning off his policies like he was on ebay. and now he is headed back to the white house, will our government be auctioned off to the highest bidder. with me now, carlos carbello of florida. now an msnbc political analyst. trump has surrounded himself with the richest cabinet in american history. do these wealthy individuals see the huge for sale sign outside the white house? >> there is real political risk here for donald trump. he ran a campaign targeted at the working class and it worked. we have seen that the democratic party has become

older, whiter, and richer. we have an oligarchy in our country. that can really backfire and hurt trump and republican ins the 26 midterm elections too which will be difficult for the party in power as it typically is. so if they are not quarriable. >> for decades the democrats, the party of fdr and labor unions had dominated with working class voters. it seems now republicans have cracked that code. does this cabinet full of billionaires create an opening for democrats to fight back,

win working class voters on the messaging? >> absolutely. i think that we cannot expect the modern robber barons, those who will receive a lot of government contracts, those he is selling off the united states government too. we cannot expect them to do the work of the working class or care about everyday household issues like the price of eggs or the price of child care and things like that. these are the same people who want to strip medicaid and free lunch programs and the people who don't want to see union strength. these are the same people who have fought tooth and nail against workers rights. so the more we see them take over in the trump administration, the more we see him appoint these individuals and see their voices heard, we will see a crushing of the middle class and workers

rights. and an opening for democrats to not only be vocal about what this is but for americans at large to have a second look at the boat they took. we saw several demographics that reached out and embraced what the trump campaign put forward. what i don't think they were looking for toward embracing was a billionaire class, was a status of elites who are going to work tooth and nail to eradicate their getting a slice of the american pie. they are getting a slice of the american dream. that is what is going to be taken into place in the incoming trump administration. >> carlos, one of the things that musk and vivek ramaswamy are floating is ending remote work for federal employees but the goal of this mandate would be to spark a wave of voluntary terminations. they say this is privilege left over from the pandemic. is this realistic and it seems that people like musk and vivek ramaswamy do work quite a lot remotely. >> yeah. look, i think there is certainly some appetite in the

country for reforming government and making it more efficient. i think that these two gentlemen have to be very careful. if there is the perception they are being cruel, that they are bullying public servants, people out there making sure people are getting their payments or at hhs make. if the perception is that they are bullying these kinds of people, then, this could really cross a line. and again, it could backfire. and the backlash could be similar to the trump backlash we saw in 18 where there was a suburban wave that brought democrats into power in the house. so government reform, efficiency? you will not find too many people who object to that. the way it is done and people being treated inhumanely for

these publicity campaigns. elon musk likes putting on social media to get clicks, that could backfire for them. >> senator joni ernst likes their ideas. time to tell the pure rats they are fired. is this kind of fake populism we will get used to, attacks on mid level bureaucrats to score some political points from her and others? >> the republican party has been trying to decrease the size of government for quite some time. this isn't a new trump era policy but for your general public who wants government efficiency, they are talking swifter means of getting va benefits. making sure they can get their applications through faster and have services delivered quicker and removing red tape for the

very services they need every day. whether it is housing, urban development. veteran's benefits. social security or education benefits for those who have disabilities. there are various things the american public want to see when they are talking about moving red tape. that is not the same conversation that the right is having. they want to punish lifelong service. they do not value the civil service. they have never valued the civil service and they think that government workers are lazy. they think government workers do not deserve pension benefits and they believe that our government workers do not serve america well. that is a very different argument than the one we see had by those individuals who rely on social services and are saying that hey, we want to have an ease of transition to receive those benefits. those are two very different things. but the right will push as hard as they can do to do the very thing they have been arguing

for decades. that government size is too big and we do not need the services provided by government because they want to privatize everything. >> please stick around. we have a lot more to discuss. next up, maga might hate him but there is a reason why trump could put one of america's most unlikable governors on his cabinet. ble governors on his cabinet. . breztri gave me better breathing starting within 5 minutes. it also reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler... for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling ...problems urinating vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. (♪♪) today, you can give a gift like no other. a gift that can help st. jude children's research hospital save lives. i think it's the most worthwhile place

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we begin this week with reporting from the new york times and wall street journal on how trump was growing frustrated with his defense secretary pete hegseth. we end the week with trump doubles down on his support. he believes he will get confirmed but the question is what if hegseth does not get confirmed? there is reporting trump's backup could be one of the most unpopular governors in america.

enter florida governor ron desantis or ron desanctimonious as trump named him in the primaries. a source involved in trump's transition says while trump is not a full trump convert, he has star power which trump likes. and quote if we pull him in and hug him tight, he is part of our administration, he could not run against our administration. carlos, your recollection to hearing him considered as a backup to pete hegseth despite aligning with trump on many issues. he is an outcast in the maga world. what is this really about and could it be a stall to keep desantis out of the way in case jd vance want to run in 2028? >> there's a lot going on behind the scenes on top of all that. desantis has a pending decision to appoint a senator to replace

marco rubio. there are numerous reports that lara trump is interested in that position. desantis since dropping out of the presidential primary has been in the midst of a reconciliation campaign trying to get back into trump world because he probably thinks it is important for his political future. on top of that, he has a very, very difficult relationship with susie wiles. the president's incoming chief of staff. so there is a lot going on there. but desantis has a few things that you mentioned a couple of them. that are interesting to trump and to the maga movement. one way to neutralize to prevent him from running against jd vance four years from now is to include him. but there's still a lot of trust deficit there between

trump and desantis and we'll see what happens with hegseth. but it is a close call whether desantis is actually the backup candidate for secretary of defense. >> what do you think about all of this? desantis is one of the most unlikable governors in the u.s. what do you think is at play here? >> i think trump is just as maga as the maga base would love. he run on must die. he made it permissible to run over protesters during the black lives matter protest. those protesters were protesting civil rights. this is a guy who has fought tooth and nail against all things equity quite some time and made it known how he is for immigration. sending a lot of the undocumented migrants to places like chicago and new york and other urban centers across the

country. specifically those seen as cities more friendly for migrants. we are talking sanctuary cities specifically. he tried to be a mini donald trump. he does not feel as though the vice president-elect will have a seat for the white house once trump's term is over so i think trump sees him as somebody who has potential. he sees him as someone who could easily get confirmed and sees him as someone who hey, if he plays his cards right because florida is not only maga central but also the standard bearer of the republican party at this point. that's why the trump family moved there anyway. that's why you see more floridians who happen to be a part of this administration than any other state. it matters and i think he is staking his claim there.

>> what is the advantage for ron desantis if he gets appointed to the cabinet or hold off and try to run again in 2028 or for senate down the line. >> ron desantis is a pretty young guy. let's say he goes into the administration, does two to four years. then he can maybe do something else. run for senate. and wait until jd advance has his turn and run. he has to figure out his long game. certainly it would seem unless things change radically getting back in the good graces of donald trump and his movement would probably be important to desantis. wheal see what happens over the next four years right? but he has a lot of decisions to make. a lot of moving parts. what complicates things is this

lack of trust that was born out of the primary. >> stick around, worst of the week is coming up next. week is when i was diagnosed with h-i-v, i didn't know who i would be. but here i am... ...being me. keep being you... ...and ask your healthcare provider about the number one prescribed h-i-v treatment, biktarvy. biktarvy is a complete, one-pill, once-a-day treatment used for h-i-v in many people—whether you're 18 or 80. with one small pill, biktarvy fights h-i-v to help you get to undetectable—and stay there whether you're just starting or replacing your current treatment. research shows that taking h-i-v treatment as prescribed and getting to and staying undetectable prevents transmitting h-i-v through sex. serious side effects can occur, including kidney problems and kidney failure. rare, life-threatening side effects include a buildup of lactic acid and liver problems.

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is covered by medicare for more people managing diabetes with insulin. this is progress. ask your doctor today. ♪♪ it is time for our worst of the week. and it goes to the president- elect. because who can't get along with canada? look what he post on his knock off twitter? >> as you know trump wants to impose a 25% tariff on all goods from canada and mexico. justin trudeau warned trump how damaging that could be.

trump reportedly responded that if canada can't survive without ripping off the u.s., maybe canada should become the 51st state and trudeau should become its governor. both sides said trump was joking. but if you listen to the patriot awards it is clear maga has latched on. >> this is a nice crowd. yeah. >> those chants of 51. carlos, your response to this whole 51st day joke and that ai image? >> look, it's a joke. an sure, we should all be willing to laugh. especially this time of year. but, some of these jokes have real consequences and what happens is in countries where populations end up feeling offended that puts pressure on political leaders like justin trudeau and others throughout

the world and it just makes it a lot harder for our country to have good trust based relationships with other nations so yes. at first glance initially, it might be funny. but this is the kind of thing that could become very harmful. hopefully it doesn't happen in this case. hopefully our canadian friends can laugh it off. but if canada feels like the united states is disrespecting its identity, its relationship with our country, that is just not good for anyone. it's an important point. it can be a joke. trump has walked this fine line before. in 2019, he floated buying greenland. how should we be parsing these absurd so-called jokes? when you are the leader of the free world, your jobs can be a

dangerous game. could have consequences on economies, your jokes, stock markets, and relationships. >> well you know, i feel like forrest gump said it best. stupid is as stupid does. this isn't actually new. he did this in his past administration. threatened tariffs. proclaimed himself as the tariff king and doesn't understand the economic impact of tariffs or the fact that they would harm america as much as they would harm the countries he imposes them on, specifically places where we do consume a lot of goods and services from. but i do think that the relationship that he has, had with justin trudeau has never been quite strong so he is trying to do this big stick level of trying to push policy. he wants these world leaders to have made fun of him in the past to kiss the ring. so part of this is joking. i don't think the tariffs are

joking. he is 100% trying to push that. and hopefully, the smarter powers that be around him will push to negate that ideology. but what he is enjoying here, having people who have spoken against him and looked out on previous iterations of his ideology to actually have to kiss the ring now. a lot of this is the fact they had to come to him. >> he does love to give off that big energy. you see how he acts around other world leaders with that trudeau dinner. weird greeting today. we remember when he pushed his way to the front of the nato line where he pushed world leaders out of the way to get to the front of the line to make sure he was in the class photo. what do you make of this strong

man energy he is always trying to give off? >> it's the kind of thing that people can end up resenting. and look. i'm not saying this would happen. but if you disrespect people enough, if you bully people enough, one day, when you might really need them, let's say the united states has to go to war to defend itself or a major ally. some nations might say why are we going to put our men and women at risk for someone making fun of us? so again, it is great to joke around. but when people start getting hurt it is no longer funny. >> thank you to the both of you for join us tonight. greatly appreciate it as always. up ahead, reporting on the

unsung heros helping families torn apart by trump. rachel maddow will be here. my friend and colleague. frien. [music playing] interviewee: my son is winston, and he is eight months old. my son has a brain tumor. my parents have donated for years, ever since i was a child. i remember my mom talking about st. jude.

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it might have started as a deterrent. but trump's family separation policy ultimately became a stain on america's reputation, more than 4,000 families torn apart. about 1,000 families remain separated. the question now of course, if cruelty was the point in trump's first term, what in the world will he do when he is back in the white house next month? the documentary called separated airing in just a few minutes here on msnbc offers us some potential clues. >> everyone who i worked with

at the office of refugee resettlement were profoundly committed to children. you have to be. because it is an exhausting job and regardless of which party is in power, it is a fairly thankless and politically unpopular job to have also. if you are not motivated by the children there is little incentive to do it because it has few other rewards. it is hard to explain to people why they should care about anyone or anything. but the most important word is children. they are not a metaphor. each of them is an actual child. and a child in danger. if you have children, you need only imagine your own child in

a foreign country, not speaking the language, with no parent, no money. not understanding how that society works, having been apprehended by immigration authorities. each of these children is your child in that situation. i can never explain to someone why they should care. but i can tell you that a lot of people do care. and care profoundly. >> it is that profound care that we really want to put a spotlight on. my colleague rachel maddow has tracked this horrific policy from the moment we learned about it and she is here next with a deeper look at separated. look at separated. e? get back to better breathing with fasenra,

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back as promised with my friend and colleague rachel maddow as we count down to the documentary separated right here on msnbc. rachel, it is great to have you on the show. we wanted to get you on ahead of tonight's film. you have reporting on the actions that helped stop the cruelty that has been the the focus of this several years. >> thank you so much for having me. i appreciate getting some of your real estate on your show here on saturday night. but i have also been really excited that we are finally now premiering this new documentary separated. i think most folks watching at home may have heard something about this film. it was by america's most celebrated living documentary film maker. this film was made by academy award winning master of the genre errol morris. any errol morris film you

should see. but this one is really important. it has been showing in theaters and screenings throughout the country. aired at big film festivals like venice and telluride. but tonight it is here on msnbc. there's a couple of things i think folks should keep in mind in terms of this current moment. when you watch separated tonight. it will start a few minutes from now. but i think the first thing to keep in mind, this is not a done store. msnbc viewers are probably familiar with the basic fact. in the trump administration in 2017, 2018. they took somewhere between 4500 and 5,000 kids away from their parents before a court ordered them to stop doing it. and one of the heros of the film that you will see when we show the film tonight, one of

the heros brought the class action lawsuit that shut down the policy. we spoke with him this week. he stressed to us though the policy was stopped by the court ins the first trump term, the effect of what the policy did has not been fixed. there are still families the government never managed to put back together after u.s. government officials forced them apart. exactly how many kids still have never gotten back to their parents, we cannot be entirely sure because the policy was such a mess. it was such a chaotic and intentionally cruel mess. so that is one thing to keep in mind. now that trump is being reelected people talk about their expectations for a second trump term. maybe one of the things that might mitigate the worst potential harm and damage is at least in the first trump term, we saw things were pretty

shambalic. they just weren't that good at doing any of the things they wanted to do and i get that makes sense. if somebody is. cooing after you, you want them to be trips on their untied shoe laces or forgetting their keys. but in real life in the government, the disorganized nature of the trump administration policy to take kids away from their parents, specifically their disorganization, their incompetence didn't make things better. it made things profoundly worse. it made it so today still in 2024, some kids have not been reunited from the parents from whom they were stolen. the problem caused still an ongoing problem for some families. the other thing to know about separated is that to the extent that the government has been

able to reunify kids with their parents, it is because there were some heros in this story. and it wasn't just outside lawyers. it was also some people inside the government. career civil servants who realized what was happening at the time and these were not people who felt like they had the capacity to stop the trump administration's policy overall. but they did mitigate it. they came up with ways to track the kids that had been taken away and did this even when their bosses didn't want them to. while the policy was still in effect, what they did it made it possible for the public to see what was happening. this was on the front page of the new york times. hundreds of immigrant children have been taken from parents at u.s. border. the report said officials have

repeatedly declined to provide data on how many families have been separated but suggested the number was relatively low. new data revealed by the new york times shows more than 700 children have been taken from adults claiming to be their parents since october including more than 100 kids under the age of four. the data was repaired by the office of refugee resettlement, of the department of health and human services who takes custody from children who have been removed from parents. senior officials from homeland security initially denied the numbers were so high. but after the numbers were confirmed to the new york times by three federal officials who work closely with these cases a spokesman for health and human services on friday acknowledged in a statement that there were quote approximately 700. so of course, now we know it was much more than 700 kids. it was thousands of kids. but when that story broke in

the new york times in april, 2018, that was the truth beginning to emerge. and the reason that much truth was able to emerge was because despite these incompetent nature of the trump administration around this policy, specifically. there were some people. some career civil servants working inside the government made sure they made lists. as civil servants they were supposed to do that. but, you know, trump's horrific policy kind of depended on them not doing it. we know that because we know what happened when the boss of these civil servants found out they were keeping lists. there was a trump political appointee whose actions were documented in detail. in the book, he reports what that boss, that political

appointee did when he learned that civil servants were keeping lists of the separated kids. quote, scott lloyd's first thought was a drastic one. let's get rid of the list. if he followed the idea through, it would destroy the critical linkage between the 700 separated children in his custody and their parents. the list was the best hope of reuniting them. this list, this critical list compiled by career staff inside the government ended up being key to 700 families being made whole. this was a civil service. they called it jim's list because his name was jim. you will hear that in the movie. this list that would allow these kids to be ever given back to their parents. that list, jim's list, is what scott lloyd wanted to get rid of. unbelievably in the film you are about to see, scott lloyd,

the trump appointee talks at length and on camera to director errol morris. whether he agreed to talk to him out of shame or in defense or because he didn't know how he would sound in these interviews i can't say. you will want to judge for yourself. it's a remarkable thing to see. but in terms of how this worked out in realtime, the fact that there weren't just scott lloyds around, there were career civil servants. that ends up being critically important over and over again. when this news started to emerge, scott lloyd and his boss floated the idea that the government should record just numbers of kids taken away from their parents and they should specifically not record any identifying details about who the kids were. and they brought this concept to a career staffer. one who you will meet in the documentary tonight. quote, sualog who has a masters

degree in clinical psychology and 20 years child welfare experience knew she could never let that happen because of the consequences. so she said as little as possible to her boss. she said, quote, okay. i'll see what i can do. but then rather than getting rid of the list, she talked to list keeper jim and told jim what the bosses wanted to do with the list he had been compiling. quote, if scott lloyd expected sualog to struck jim not to keep the list, jim never did. he continued adding to it as the number of separated children rapidly grew. so jim's list went to hundreds, ultimately thousands of entries. that would end up being all that stood between many of those kids and the abyss. and it was career staffers who kept that list alive. against the wishes of trump's

political appointees. and importantly, those career staffers also kept their jobs. and that is important because it meant they could keep doing this work. this work we know saved some of these families. so here we go. today we are on the merge of a second trump administration. that outcome would be far from assured. trump is returning to power now with new promises not just to put millions of people in camps in the united states. not just promising mass deportations, but also, trump promising to take a chain saw to the federal work force to get all the career staff professionals out of government. trump appointees have pledged they will fire half of all government workers. trump himself has promised he was going to dismantle and shatter what his people call

the deep state which just means the government. he wants to reclassify career civil servants under something called schedule f. and while that is the world's most boring terminology, what it means in real life is it would clear the way for trump to fire tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of people who are career professionals who work for the government. schedule f would have affected people like sualog who protected the list of separated kids because she knew what would happen if that list were destroyed. sualog works in the private sector now, but she told us this week in advance of the film premiering tonight on msnbc, she told us this week that her friends at her old job are really afraid. not so much about losing their jobs although that is a reasonable fear, she says they are worried about what would happen in another circumstance like this. who would be there to do something like protecting that list of kids? in advance of the film

premiering, we were mission focused and knew what our job was. i'm not sure you would still do it knowing you would be fired on the spot. the world would be different. had schedule f been in place. when i say that the story you are going to see tonight in "separated" is not over, part of what i mean by that is the thousands of families torn apart. there are efforts underway to fix that now. to among other things try to reunite all the remaining families who had their kids taken away. that settlement is in effect.

it will go to his political appointees and career professional staff in the government who will try to carry on with the work of the country regardless of who is in the white house. the role played by the government employees was absolutely critical in ensuring that we could reunify thousands of families. i think my job will be much more difficult going forward if these courageous civil servants are no long therapy and too scared to speak up under the administration. >> was essentially hijacked. >> and why a career officer in the u.s. public health service at great risk to himself has spoken out about family separation before congress and in this film. he still serve ins the government tonight. still at risk. still trying to help. how long will that be true and what is it going to take for the country to stand up for

civil servants like him not being fired? not being removed from every one of these jobs? that is worth appreciating tonight. that may be the next steps when you watch this film. >> yeah rachel. i will be glued to it. the immediate question i think about as the second trump administration the big picture projects like project 2025 to get rid of bureaucrats in the government. the people who try to do or want to do the good thing with reuniting family members. it is hard to think that with the removal of these workers, these employees that this last safeguard that we might have in trying to correct this wrong would forever be removed as well. >> if you look at it from 30,000 feet, the project of would be authoritarian

politicians. is to consolidate power. to make sure that there is only one decision maker in government that none of the other branches of government have a real say. that nobody else within the executive branch has a real say. or gets to impede the leader from doing what he wants to do. that's the big picture process. i think in the specific though, the experience of the trump administration, in the most scandalous, the most horrific things they try to do, they were slowed down from doing some of their worst by career civil servants being responsible. you saw it in everything from you know, trying to fire the ambassador to ukraine to trying to disappear all the evidence that linked these kids to the parents they had been stolen away from. the civil servants made a difference. that's why they want to get rid of them and it will be a

important political task for the country to try to make that contested ground and not just let them do it. >> and we will have to remain vigilant as that effort gets underway. rachel, thank you very much. thank you for putting the spotlight on this important documentary. >> thank you. thank you so much my friend. >> of course, we'll be right back with the premier of separated after a quick break. separated after a quick break.

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tonight or tomorrow i will be speaking with gabriel shipton, the half-brother of julian assange discussing his potential pardon in the final days of the biden administration beginning at 7:00 p.m. eastern on msnbc. a reminder you can now listen to ayman as a podcast. just scan the qr code on your screen, and subscribe to msnbc premium on apple podcasts. until we meet again, i am ayman mohyeldin . as promised, "separated" begins right now. i