♪♪ ♪♪ good morning, and welcome to this sunday edition of "morning joe" weekend. it was another fast moving news

week. here are some of the conversations you might have missed. >> let's talk about your latest piece for "politico" titled "biden white house is discussing preemptive pardons for those in trump's cross hairs," quote, president joe biden's senior aides are discussing whether to issue preemptive pardons to a range of current and former public officials who could be targeted with donald trump's return to the white house, according to senior democrats familiar with the discussions. the deliberations of pardoning those currently in office, elected and appointed and those who could face exposure, senator elect adam schiff and liz cheney, also mentioned by biden's aides for a pardon, anthony fauci, former head of the national institute of allergy and infectious diseases who became a lightning rod for criticism from the right during

the covid-19 pandemic. the president himself, jonathan, continues, who is intensely focused on his son's pardon has not been brought into the broader pardon discussions yet according to those familiar with the discussions. what are you pardonening anthony fauci for, what are you pardoning liz cheney for who have not been charged or convicted of crimes. >> this goes to the heart of this deliberation, and why this is so delicate. the white house counsel and a handful of senior white house aides, including jeff zeinst are having this debate in the west wing. do we leave these folks out in the cold and potentially expose them to kash patel's fbi and donald trump's white house for any number of charges or some kind of a, you know, show trial to get a measure of revenge, and at the very least make them pay

six figures in legal bills to avoid such a case or do we offer preemptively pardons to people who there's no proof they have done anything wrong whatsoever, and may not want a pardon in the first place. that's a real tough call. if you don't do it and patel and company come after some of these people, and you had the chance to give them inoculation legally, that's a hell of a thing to regret. at the same time, do you want to pardon somebody like liz cheney or anthony fauci and suggest any kind of impropriety that could only add fuel to the trump aggressors in the first place. it's a real tough nut. >> so, you have been at this for a very long time, covering national politics for a very long time, and you have done it very well. >> thank you. >> did you ever think that we would be living through an era where we would be talking about pardons, preemptive pardons for people like dr. fauci or people like liz cheney as part of the political process that we have

been living under for the last eight years. it's unimaginable. >> it's completely shocking to even write this. you know, the idea of offering people who have not been charged with any crime, there's no even hint of committing any crimes, pardons, because the nature of the incoming administration is such that they're pretty open about the idea of pursuing a kind of third world model, when we come in, we go after the old guys. i can hear what the trump folks are going to say immediately. he's only saying what they did to us, and i think guys, that's what's you'll hear next year if the trump folks pursue these revenge investigations or indictments of. they started law fare first, they indicted trump left and right. we're only keeping the same thing going. and you can see it easily right now. guys, that's why the debate is so serious in the white house, and why they're taking this, i think, with some measure of

sobriety, even though it is an extraordinary precedent to set. >> that's the argument the trump team will make, bad faith as it may be. let's get to your take on this. we know when trump was leaving office, he considered blanket pardons for a lot of folks. we expect when he walks in the door, he will issue a bunch of pardons, january 6th convicts, he made that promise on the campaign trail. that was going to happen regardless. what do you think the impact would be, if president biden follows through with this and offers the blanket pardon. we saw what happened when he pardoned hunter biden. how do you think that impacts the national political conversation, how will that be perceived? . >> mixed at best, and probably would get a lot of people concerned about what precedent we're setting. let's not forget, donald trump not only talked about pardoning the january 6th people that were doing the insurrection. he called them hostages and had

them singing as a choir at his rally. in the background of that, i think that people will be kind of mixed in their reaction, if biden were to do this. from the civil rights community, we have been saying he ought to be pardoning people like marilyn mosby, the prosecutor in baltimore, jesse jackson, jr., the congressman. i have a brother in alabama who's doing civil work. look at people, reverend kenny glassgow. people who have come out and done well, served the community, that ought to be the standard, and i think to forecast what people may face i think is something that should be discussed. i would hope he also looks at pardoning people that maybe have made a mistake, but turned around and done the right thing. that's what pardons are for. i think we should not pervert that. >> what's so interesting, you read these articles talking about it in jay mark's article.

there are people like adam schiff, for instance, who seems to be in the cross hairs, right. >> nancy. >> liz cheney, nancy pelosi. a lot of people who say don't give me a pardon. i didn't do anything wrong. if he wants to come after me, come after me. knowing liz cheney, i'm sure liz cheney would be the same. like, go ahead make my day. come after me for doing my job. make me a political martyr, make me the next president of the united states. here i am. don't give me a pardon for something i didn't do. >> yeah, and, joe, i think that you're going to see more of that in the coming days, people who say don't preemptively give me a pardon. you're going to suggest i need a pardon for something, and i don't want that. please don't do that. here's the sort of back story, though, for people who are less high profile for adam schiff and

liz cheney. people serving in the administration in some kind of appointive capacity, jack smith, and below jack smith level, looking at a lot of money and legal fees potentially if there is any kind of prosecution next year. that's a bit of a delicate situation. i talked to some democrats yesterday, joe, who said, you know, maybe the better idea is you create a legal defense fund or you get a handful of democratic donors to commit to paying the legal fees for everybody who would be targeted by the trump administration next year for any kind of political indictment. and you take care of it that way. the courts will dismiss the charges, and you absolve innocent folks of paying astronomical legal fees by getting the donors in the party to do the right thing. we'll see if that happens. >> i'm glad you brought that up. one of the things we were going to talk about earlier when

talking about fear. democrats and others have to stop being fearful, and one of the ways they can do that is you can get big democratic donors. you can get law firms, powerful law firms. >> right. >> they could come to an agreement. >> that's right. >> and we talked about the politicians, but you talk about the people in the fbi that did their jobs. you talk about people in the doj that did their jobs. >> right. >> you talk about the people in the dod that did their jobs, and those people are the ones that like you said, democratic donors, other billionaires who actually want to do something positive with their money. they team up with great law firms, strong, powerful law firms and you actually take away the incentive to try to drain jack smith or try to drain some of these other people who thought they were doing their job and following the law. >> no, exactly. and look, there's any number of democratic leaning law firms, big city law firms full of democratic lawyers who you can

see stepping up and offering to do pro bono work, work paid for by the cat zenbergs of the world to take care of this. barnicle is right, the fact that we're having this conversation, how do you approach taking care of people that are going to be prosecuted, whether it's a preemptive pardon or a massive legal defense fund does speak to the extraordinary nature of these times, and it's the age old question, joe, do you take trump seriously or literally. if you take them literally, he wants to put liz cheney in prison. how do you proceed, it's a sobering moment. >> well, for those of us who actually believe in the third branch, the judicial branch doing their job, i think you're right. if there are people that would back, like people like liz

cheney, and adam schiff, nancy pelosi, other people financially, and then you have big law firms in washington, d.c. we're not going to let the rule of law be trampled on here. then obviously you have people that could fight those fights. >> right. >> and then any of these cases would be thrown out. and they wouldn't be drained financially. >> and at the same time, it is still a very sobering time. i mean, this is where we are. because donald trump won the election. >> and that's exactly why we need people to step skpup up an that. "morning joe weekend" will be right back. weekend" will be right back. you fixed it! you nailed it! you did it! with centrum silver, clinically proven to support memory in older adults. when you're a small-business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪

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i want to emphasize the individual federal employees are mostly not bad people, actually, because most human beings are not bad people. to the country, most people who are federal employees are doing what they do because they believe they are serving their country. i respect that. i'm hopeful it's going to be

good for individuals who may make a transition from government service back to the private sector. >> that was vivek ramaswamy who is part of a newly formed department of government efficiency with elon musk. and has pushed for making mass cuts to the federal work force, insisting those very cuts will be beneficial to government workers. joining us now, former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. >> steve, let's just cut straight to this, and i know you're going to go through these charts, but this is something when i hear these two guys talking about how they're going to cut $2 trillion from the budget, it's a joke. and it's a joke because this is something you and i have been obsess about for a very long time, the national debt, getting the deficit under control. and i just, you know, just looking at your first chart here, i mean, people need to understand, social security and medicare make up about 50% of what the government spends.

you add defense and veterans benefits, that's another 20%. so you're up to 70%. you then add debt and how much it costs to service that debt. that's another 10%. so steve, before they even start talking about cutting these so-called federal employees that are bankrupting us, the united states government has already spent 80% of its budget on medicare, medicaid, social security, vets, defense, and interest on the debt. i love some of these other numbers. again, forgive me for killing hamlet in the first act here, but, oh, let's cut law enforcement. that's 1% of the budget. oh, let's cut science and medical research, we spend too much on that, they may be saying. 1% of the budget.

ag, 1% of the budget. transportation, those pork barrel projects it's going to bankrupt us. it's 2% of the budget. again, i will actually let you explain this far better than i am right now, but this is a scam unless they're going to slash social security and medicare, and veterans affairs. they're never going to get to $2 trillion. so they need to just stop pretending. >> you know, joe, i feel like vanna white, i'm just turning letters up here, and you're actually pat sajak telling people how it is . >> it makes me so mad. it's so disingenuous. >> you said it exactly right. this is an unrealistic idea, for the reasons you said, only 25% of the budget can really be cut, and even that you rattled off a lot of programs that most americans would say like are really important to them, and so you're trying to cut, you know, i can do a little bit of math,

trying to cut $2 trillion but you've only got $1.5 trillion of stuff you could cult, t, and th would be cutting all of it. trump has intimated cutting money from medicaid. we're going to talk here about veterans, where there's stuff on the chopping block. what musk and ramaswamy have done as a first approximation is they have identified $500 billion of spending in a complicated legislative quirk, they think they can cut without congress. but let's just give an example of the things they would like to cut. veterans health care, $119 billion. eliminate health care of veterans. we're going to talk about the impact in a second. nih, $47 billion. pel grants for education, $22 billion. headstart, 12 billion. the fbi, maybe they would like to cut that, 11 billion. this would zero this stuff out

t. out. federal prisons, the s.e.c. and so forth. all of that adds up to $516 billion. there's still a long way from their $2 trillion target. even if they got all of this stuff, and even if people accepted this. so, yes, joe, your opening premise is right, it's ridiculous. >> musk and ramaswamy are headed to the hill to pitch the cuts. by the time they arrive, the senate will have expected to have gone home by then. they're learning on the job. va and nih are targets. talk about those cuts and what they would mean. >> i want to give examples of how heavy the political lift would be to get this done. you're talking about 6.2 million veterans receiving health care from the veterans administration, and that number, this is a 2021 number, the most recent we have. that's going to grow. they passed the pact act, which is to protect veterans who are hurt in burn pits and things

like that. that passed by an overwhelming bipartisan consensus. imagine the idea, you go back then, a year or two later, and you say, i know you passed this thing by a bipartisan consensus, now we want to eliminate it. it just doesn't stand the test of reality. then you talk about the nih, a truly great organization. it funds basic research that the private sector won't fund because there's not obvious commercial use for it. put aside lung cancer, which had a lot to do with smoking, taking up smoking cessation, smoking, the nih is impacted, but they played a big role in all the different cancers that have come down in terms of incidents. from colon and rectal, breast, lung, cervix and stomach. all of these cancers have come down, and you have the nih to thank for a lot of it. >> no question there. steve, charts 3 and 4, it's not just the trump administration.

for decades now, republicans are the ones who blamed democrats saying, you're increasing the size of the federal work force, you're responsible for the blow. your chart there shows it's exactly the opposite. >> yeah, this really surprised me when we put these numbers together. they have been talking about cutting 50 to 75% of the federal work force, ambitious, if you want, ludicrous more realistically proposal. what's interesting about this, two things. first of all, the size of the federal work force, $2.3 million, when reagan came in is actually only very very slightly higher today than it was then, even though the population of the united states has grown by 47%. so these 2.2 million, civilian workers are servicing 50% more employee with the same number of government employees. number two, if you look at the red ones, which is where we had a republican president, this is reagan, the famous reagan, government unemployment went up

under reagan, clinton, it dropped like a rock, with help from congress, which joe will remind me if i don't say that, came up again under george bush 43, and these spikes, by the way, are covid, the financial crisis, the dot com burst and the recession that bush did in 43. you have speck. even under trump, federal employment went up, under trump 1.0. the record of the republicans, they talk a good game, but the record of republicans in cutting spending is pretty small. the other thing musk and ramaswamy are attacking is federal pay. people have this idea that federal workers are widely overpaid. let's look at the facts on that. if you go back to 2011, it is true, the average federal worker, this guy in blue here made about 6% more than his private sector counter part if you adjust for the different levels of jobs and skills and so forth.

but congress has held down federal pay now pretty consistently for those 20 years, the result of which now that the private sector pay is substantially both federal pay by 8%. the average private worker, again, adjusted for skills, makes about 8% more than a federal worker. so the idea that these are government bureaucrats who are way over paid is just not supported by the facts. >> all right. steve rattner, thank you very much. we appreciate your coming on this morning. up next, democratic senator catherine cortez masto of nevada joins us to weigh in on president trump's proposed immigration policies. "morning joe weekend" will be right back. weekend" will be right back i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting!

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trump has specifically mentioned those afforded temporary protected status, which has been granted to more than 1 million immigrants from countries dealing with natural disaster, armed conflict or other extraordinary circumstances. the designation for several countries ends next year, including el salvador, sudan, ukraine and venezuela. trump could simply let the protected status of these countries expire or revoke that status before the expiration date, which has never been done before. so let's bring in democratic senator catherine cortez masto of nevada. she has been calling on the biden administration to protect the program. >> and senator, how would he do that? >> good morning. well, first of all, let me just say thank you for drawing attention to this. this is the point, right now the president has the legal ability to do this. these countries that you just talked about already, really

their horrific conditions, they satisfy what they have passed in congress. the law is to allow the president to take action to provide tps status to so many that are coming from these countries of horrific conditions. some of them are already here. some of them are already working. they are already contributing to the economy. they are part of our communities, and what the president can do is just take legal action to extend their tps status, but it's not just our tps recipients. my hope is that the president in the last two month also quickly processes our daca recipients' applications. we need to make sure our dreamers also have the ability to stay here, continue to be a part of the country that they grew up in because unfortunately, as you have identified, the next administration is going to come in, and there's going to be chaos around immigration and mass deportation. we have already seen it when the president was in office once before. >> senator, good morning. great to have you with us. so what we're hearing so far

from the incoming trump administration from his czar, as they're calling it, the border czar, tom homan, they are just going after the criminals. they want to get the criminals who are here illegally out of the country. what is your expectation about what mass deportation actually looks like, though? >> nobody is safe. i can tell you, when president trump was in office the first time, i can tell you the calls to my office and the chaos that he created around immigration and separating families and nobody was safe. everybody in our community, at least in nevada that i saw, they weren't protected. whether you were married to a u.s. citizen or whether you were a dreamer. so really, at the end of the day, what i take is what i hear from this incoming administration, they're going to engage in mass deportation, and nobody is safe. that's why i'm asking the administration to come in and take action that they can now to protect some of the immigrant community, tps recipients, data recipients, make sure that at

least from bringing certainty to them and keeping their families together. >> so david drucker, let me ask you about what reporting you've gotten, what we've heard, what other people have heard, what willie just referenced is that the incoming trump administration talking about they're going to focus on the violent criminals. they're going to focus on those who committed crimes and run them out, and they don't want a repeat of what happened in 2017. i'm curious if that lines up with what you're hearing and i'm also curious what pressure they may be getting from wall street, and from businesses and from smaller businesses where you have a lot of these legal immigrants who are actually helping family restaurants, family hardware stores, small businesses on main street, mid-sized businesses across america. this is obviously, if you talk

to a lot of people who voted for donald trump who say, yeah, get the criminals out, but please, we've got an economy to run here, don't run out people who are here legally. what are you hearing? >> right. and i think we're going to see a debate within the white house and the administration broadly with exactly how extensive these deportation actions should be. there are so many hispanic voters, in fact, that voted for trump because they want criminal aliens deported but they do not expect the trump administration, incoming, to actually go after people that are here illegally but working. so that's the expectation from some of the voters that could be impacted themselves or members of their family, and i think a lot of people in the business community are expecting trump to do what's best for the economy. and what's not good for the economy, even if it lines up with the law, is to do blanket

mass deportations that sweeps up people who are working and are a part of these industries that are so vital to the u.s. economy. and the thing about this is, joe, there's always conflicting signals coming from within trump's circle because some of the people advising him are hard line and want these deportation orders to include everybody that is here illegally. they want to see the president revoke temporary status to immigrants because they feel that it will benefit american citizens who are seeking employment or have employment, and then there are others who look at this in a more pragmatic sense, and i always like to say, you got to figure out who's talking to trump last if you want to figure out where he's going to land on this stuff. >> so senator, let's take a bigger picture look here. obviously this is part of an agenda the president-elect is trying to put in place. he's trying to get his team in

place to do so, the members of his potential cabinet have been on capitol hill meeting with senators in recent days. what is your assessment of the quality of the incoming selections and whether or not you think that some of your republican colleagues may say no to a few who have been identified as perhaps the more problematic, hegseth, gabbard, patel and the like. >> we have seen them say no to one of them already, of course have concerns, but like any process, previously, even under the trump administration, the biden administration, as a smart, i take this process very seriously. it's important that we engage in the advice and consent. i'm going to do my due diligence, meet with the individuals, ask questions and make a decision from there. do i have concerns with some of them? absolutely. and that's why i'm going to be hopefully meeting with them and asking them the questions about their intent as they get into these positions. >> all right. democratic senator catherine cortez masto of nevada. thank you very much for coming

on the show this morning. we really appreciate it. take care. and senior writer "the dispatch," david drucker, thank you as well. ing up, following donald trump's election victory, our next guest argues we're seeing, quote, the end of democratic delusions. "the democratic" george packer joins us with that next. joins us with that next. - take a very special trip to the mall where anything... come and get your little kev! is... cashbackable!!! -really? -yeah. anything is cashbackable!!! chill. sorry! 'tis the season to cashback with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase, make more of what's yours.

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there's a lot of talk about how the democratic party has to re-examine everything they've done, and i've talked about, i mean, massive gains in texas, in florida, in middle america. that is true. but there is another side of that. the slimmest majority in the house of representatives since herbert hoover, you got a three-vote margin in the united states senate. and then if you go state by state, less than 1 percentage point in wisconsin. less than 1 1/2 percentage points in michigan. about 1 1/2 percentage points in pennsylvania. that's the difference between the democratic president and a republican president. also one other thing, when everybody talks about the rise of the far right and everything else, donald trump got less

votes in 2024 than he got in 2020. now, i'm not here to say people voted against kamala harris in large numbers because she was a woman or because she was a black woman, even though the united states of america almost stands alone in not electing women to the top spot, right? but you look at these states, right, you and i remember, like, 1972, 1984, even 1980. you remember all of those democrats that got swept out in these landslides. kamala harris barely lost wisconsin, tammy baldwin, democratic senator won. kamala harris barely lost michigan, and yet elissa slotkin won. she lost pennsylvania, but, man, they had to go a couple of weeks before figuring out whether bob casey had won or lost. so, again, we're talking about

the thinnest of margins, so this is one of those things we say all the time, two things can be true at once. i believe democrats need to examine what they've done. at the same time, let's not pretend that this was like a 1984 style landslide. this was an election within the margin of errors, and in those three swing states up north. if harris wins, you know, gets an extra 1, 1 1/2, 2%, she's president. are you going to blow everything up for 1 1/2%? >> you're not. i mean, in my opinion, you're not. you're going to settle down. you're going to step back from the ledge, and you are going to -- yes, you're going to look at a loss because you did lose the election, but, no, you're not going to blow everything up. the country is very evenly

divided. and these elections are close, one way or the other. if i were advising the democratic party, i would say one thing you really need to look at is your declining share among latino voters. i don't think the democratic party understands the latino community or latino voters because there are actually a number of different communities. they don't understand that portion of the electorate well enough, and it's a growing portion of the electorate that needs to be understood. but, no, i don't think you have to start from scratch and say let's tear down the entire democratic party and build a new one. you did, after all, go into this election with a black and south asian woman at the head of the

ticket, and while we didn't talk about that a whole lot, nonetheless, this is the united states of america, and i don't think you'll ever convince me that that had no impact on the result, and again we're talking 1.5%. >> 1%. >> one way or the other. so, you know, this is what happens. >> so to that point, yeah, but to that point, there is some hard realities, and some major work to be done to make for a resounding win. >> of course. >> so that those issues don't -- let's bring in staff writer for "the atlantic" george packer who writes about the end of democratic delusions arguing that the 2024 election has launched us into a new era, one he calls the trump reaction. i thought we were already in that era. anyhow, msnbc contributor, mike barnicle joins the conversation as well. >> so, mr. packer, we presented

our opening argument, we turn it over to you, the prosecution, go. >> yeah, i suddenly got the feeling as i was watching earlier that i had actually signed up for a firing squad here. >> no, no, no. >> i will do my best. >> first of all, don't put me in a corner where i never went. i am not saying the democratic party is finished and needs to be rebuilt from scratch. you have been talking about some historical parallels. i would draw an analogy and, joe, you remember to 1968 when richard nixon barely defeated the incumbent vice president who had taken over for the incumbent president who had withdrawn from the race. that was a really close election. but it signalled a change, a big change, which was the end, really, of new deal liberalism. it didn't happen all at once.

it took maybe 12 years until ronald reagan swept it away in 1980. but that's where i'm looking more a trend, which is the trend toward populism, right wing populism, it's a global phenomenon. yes, ika, you're right, it has been coming in this country for eight years, but the fact that donald trump won again, despite being pretty unpopular, despite having tried to overthrow an election, despite being a convicted felon, tells me that that trend, that sentiment in the public to get rid of old institutions, to overthrow the status quo, it's a really strong one. strong enough to reelection this, i would say, degenerate felon, and democrats would be foolish not to look at that and say, we may be defending a status quo that the country has had enough of. >> so, george, in the piece that you wrote for the atlantic, i

mean, you outline a couple of periods of times, 1964, massive majority in the 89th congress. their majority lasted basically until 1980 when the reagan revolution began. 1980, the revolution ended in 2003 with george w. bush taking us into iraq, but what at least i didn't gather from the piece was the impact of an outside force called the culture on our politics. did not that change everything in terms of persuasion? iphones, the internet, twitter, the impact of the culture had on our politics was far more important, i think, than any candidate, any specific candidate. >> i think that's a great point, mike. i did talk about the challenge for journalists in an age where facts have ceased to exist. there's simply no way to make facts stick with billionaire

owned platforms pouring disinformation and lies and propaganda at followers and account holders every minute of every day, which is unlike anything the media has ever seen before. so in a way, it's a bigger problem, even, than i have said. because democrats are talking about what new policies might work to bring back latino voters, to bring back younger voters, to bring back, especially, working class voters. well, what if policies and the facts that you bring to support those policies no longer matter, no longer stick with voters, and instead, as you say, mike, it's culture, it's motion, it's images and it's lies, which people have become unable to separate from the truth. that's something that worries me more than kash patel running the fbi. although that worries me too. up next, the play "oh, mary," has been a hit on broadway since it opened earlier this year.

it stars cola, and the emmy nominated betty gilpin, they join us to discuss the comedy's wild premise next on "morning joe weekend." ekend. dexcom g7 is one of the easiest ways to take better control of your diabetes. this small wearable replaces fingersticks, lowers a1c, and it's covered by medicare. not managing your diabetes really affects your health for the future. the older you get, the more complications you're gonna see.

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♪♪ a few plays in recent years have taken broadway by storm quite like the new comedy "oh, mary," written by and starring cole escola, imagining the life of a frustrated, drunken mary todd lincoln in the weeks leading up to abraham lincoln's assassination. after a critically acclaimed successful run on broadway, the show is announcing exclusively here on "morning joe" that cole is handing over the reins and that curly wig to betty gilpin who will play the first lady for a limited eight-week engagement. the show will be extending its run deep into next year, late

june. and cole and betty join us. so great to have you here. >> thank you for having us and for breaking the scoop. >> that's the scoop. i guess i stole the thunder, cole, i'll let you dive in a little deeper. this has been so well received as we begin to explain what's happened. this is the show on broadway, the must see show right now. i saw it last week, it blew my mind, i like what the "new york times" wrote about it, cole escola's unhinged historical fan day fantasia, i think it describes it well. >> talk about handing over the torch. >> well, she just wouldn't leave me alone. >> that's right. >> she has been hounding me ever since the show started. >> since birth. >> really? >> no, i have to take a break because i was -- i have to write some scripts that i have already been paid to write like two years ago, and i was like, oh, i'll get to them after the play

finishes downtown, and then here we are almost a year later, and people are angry, and so i called the most talented actress i know. >> she wasn't available. >> she wasn't available. but she said do you know a little gal named betty gilpin. i couldn't be more excited about betty. >> betty, tell me from your side about that phone call. what was it like to get that offer? >> well, strangely, i was doing a mini series about james garfield, another assassinated president, and i was playing the first lady, lucretia, so i was in full regalia, petticoat and all and got the call to come play mary todd, and i hit the floor in tears. this is a total dream come true. i have been obsessed with cole forever, their brain is just one of our most brilliant on the planet, and i'm completely obsessed with "oh, mary," i cannot wait.

>> cole, this has happened so quickly, off broadway, started february of this year. >> previously started in january. >> but early this year. >> yeah. >> and then just came to broadway in july, and now it's this sensation. how have you been able to process any of it or take in what's happened so quickly for you? >> i haven't been able to, and i don't think i'll be able to until betty takes over, and then, yeah, i mean, it's eight shows a week. it's no joke, you know. >> that's right. >> eight a week. >> i think a lot of people including myself who watched the show say where in cole's mind was this born? how did you even conceive of this idea? >> i had the idea, i thought, what if abraham lincoln's assassination wasn't such a bad thing for mary, you know, i think for a lot of husbands or for a lot of women, the prospect of their husbands being assassinated is, you know, maybe

a hope or dream that they have. >> i hope not. >> i wanted to give women a place to come and live out that fantasy. >> feel recognized. >> and don't go away, we have a second hour of "morning joe weekend" on this sunday morning coming up right after the break.

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good morning. i'm alicea menendez live from msnbc headquarters. it is 7:00 a.m. here in new york, 3:00 p.m. in the syrian capital of damascus where we're following breaking news. a coalition of syrian militant groups claim they have toppled the syrian government. across syria today, we're seeing celebrations in the streets after the rebels declared victory in the nation's 13-year civil war. the rebels addressed the nation on state tv saying they overthrew president bashar al assad's regime. nbc news has not independently confirmed the rebels' claim. as for assad, his location still unknown, however multiple media reports and the russian government indicate he fled damascus. nbc news has not confirmed his departure or his whereabouts. this video shows syrians inside the presidential palace in damascus after his ouster. truly stunning developments following a rapid two-week offensive that led to the capture of syria's capital city. joining us now from the white house, nbc news correspondent allie raffa.

how is the biden administration responding to what can only be described as a rapid turn of events? >> reporter: good morning. the national security council reacted to this major development overnight saying that president biden and his team are closely monitoring the events in syria and staying in constant touch with regional partners. now, u.s. officials have been repeatedly asked about this worsening crisis in syria over the last week since rebel forces seized the country's second largest city of aleppo, kicking off this record-fast takeover you mentioned. and they issued caution when predicting if and when president assad's regime would fall, saying it is impossible to tell when it would happen, and how the upheaval would impact the u.s.' footprint in syria. remember, the u.s. has about 900 troops stationed in northern syria to counter isis activity. and in recent days, obviously it became clearer that this takeover could eventually happen. now, just yesterday, before rebel forces took over the

capital of damascus, national security adviser jake sullivan made clear how the u.s. views these rebels who are led by an islamist group labeled a terrorist organization by the u.s., sullivan talking about what the u.s. is focused on as this complicated scenario plays out. listen to his comments here. >> we really think that there are three things we have to be particularly focused on. one, the fighting in syriaed no lead to the resurgence of isis and we're going to take steps ourselves directly and working with the syrian democratic forces, the kurds to ensure that does not happen. two, that our friends in the region, israel, jordan, iraq, others who border syria, or who would potentially face spillover effects from syria, are strong and secure and we're in touch with them every day. >> reporter: as far as what happens now, it is really still too soon to understand who among these factions of rebels will lead the country and how. but sul livan sully actually sa

yesterday the future of syria should be up to the syrian people, but this has widespread impacts in the region that u.s. officials are closely monitoring. as you heard there, talking to partners in the region, as far as possible u.s. involvement from now on, sullivan actually agreed with president-elect trump's statement yesterday saying this is not the u.s.' fight to fight and it should avoid getting involved. >> nbc's allie raffa for us at the white house. thank you. joining us now former cia director john brennan. director brennan, thank you so much for being with us. first, your reaction to what we have watched unfold in the past 24 hours? >> well, this is the culmination of nearly 14 years of rebellion in syria against the assad regime. and for many years, the various rebel groups were divided among themselves.

but hayat tahrir al sham known by hts acronym led by abu mohammed al jolani has been effective in terms of bringing the groups together and moderating some of the public positions and stances. and so it has allowed them to capitalize on the growing animosity within syria against the assad regime. so, the very fast-falling syrian government forces in the major cities, aleppo, hama and homs, led to this assault on damascus and it was clear that the syrian regime was not able to repulse it, primarily because their outside backers, mainly russia, iran and hezbollah, were not able to bring to bear the capabilities that were needed to be able to stop this assault. so this is a major turning point. the assad regime, hafez al assad, now bashar al assad

controlled syria for 50 years, but it does present a number of challenges to folks in the region. the question is whether or not this moderation that jolani has shown over the past several years is going to be sustained because let's make no bones about it, this is an islamist group, with many extremist factions, it has its roots in al qaeda. it has evolved over the years, but clearly it has been very, very effective just over the past couple of weeks in bringing down the assad regime and hafez al assad, or bashar al assad is out of the country now, or at least in the alowi enclave, the religious sect that basically has ruled syria over a number of years, but the syrian population is a very diverse one with christians and jews and shia and sunni muslims. but jolani has been very clever in terms of how he's been able to rally these forces and

present a unified front against this syrian government. >> let's talk about that moderation and that unified front on the part of jolani. he's reassured minorities that he will not interfere with them, the international community has said he opposes islamist attacks abroad. how is u.s. intelligence assessing the sincerity of those claims? >> that's a tough question. i do believe that this has been rather politically expedient for jolani. in idlib, in the north, they have demonstrated a tolerance for religious diversity and they have not imposed these strict islamist standards that we have seen in other places. now, again, i think there are a number of factions within this coalition of rebel groups that are rather extreme, and the question is whether or not jolani is going to be able to

control them. it is one thing to tear down an authoritarian regime and to combine your forces against a common enemy, but now that it looks as though hts is going to take over the government in damascus, the big question is whether or not they're going to be able to stay on this moderate course or whether or not there are going to be some elements that are going to really challenge that moderation. >> so, big key regional players here, turkey, russia, iran. let's talk about iran first. this from "the new york times," quote, a collapse of iran's partnership with syria would by all accounts reshape the balance of power in the middle east. the axis of resistance that iran formed with its militant allies in lebanon, syria, iraq and yemen would be weakened, israel and arab allies would be strengthened. how could the fall of the assad regime impact the rest of the region? >> certainly it does undermine the iranian efforts to have what is called a northern crescent,

which would go from iran through iraq and then syria and into lebanon of the shia groups that are aligned with iran. so, which is why the iranians, the iranian revolutionary guard, have been so supportive of the assad regime. but now the iranians clearly are on their back foot, across the region, whether it be in lebanon or yemen, now in syria, it seems as though they lost a very, very strong partner. and, again, hts is a sunni islamist group, it would be opposed to any type of iranian shia influence there. so it does upset the balance here. the question is what happens in the coming months in terms of the orientation of the new government in syria and damascus and whether or not it poses a threat to israel. but again, this is reshaping it as you pointed out, reshaping the political landscape in the

levante area and middle east more directly. >> i would like you to walk me through the statement we heard from nsa sullivan saying that there are three things the biden administration is focused on. the first, that the fighting in syria not lead to the resurgence of isis. we're going to take steps ourselves directly in working with the syrian democratic forces, the kurds, to ensure that does not happen. what does that look like, sir? >> you know, syria is a patchwork of all different groups and as pointed out we have aligned ourselves with the syrian democratic front in the north, which is the kurdish group, as a way to fight against isis and also to try to maintain some type of stability in that part of syria. but there are also a lot of other groups inside of syria. and i think what jake sullivan is saying is that it is still quite uncertain in terms of how this unfolding situation is going to develop. and we will be most interested

in making sure that our key allies and partners in the area, namely israel and jordan and then the government in iraq, are not going to allow a resurgence of isis. now -- of mohammad al jolani separated himself from isis and there were battles among the various rebel groups which undermine the ability to topple the assad regime for many years. but it does seem as though he now has been able to concentrate power in his hands with the question being whether or not a lot of the areas of syria, which are ungoverned and have been ungoverned for many years will allow the rise once again of isis that could in fact challenge this -- what appears to be a new government. >> you echoed something that jake sullivan said, which is an emphasis on regional partners, israel, jordan, iraq, others, who border syria who face spillover effect, saying you need them to be strong and

secure and saying we're in touch with them every day. you have been inside those conversations in the past. pull back the curtain for us, give us a sense of the likely conversations that are happening between the biden administration, u.s. intelligence, israel, jordan and iraq. >> well, the intelligence cooperation between the united states and its counterparts inside of israel and jordan and iraq is very close. and i think what is most needed right now is to get as clear a picture as possible about what is going on inside of syria, what is going on inside of the leadership of the hts, and to see whether or not we can pick up any early signs of which direction it is going to go. this intelligence is so important to foreign policymakers in these countries to be able to coordinate the efforts, to try to contain any type of islamist extremist growth, of capabilities and presence in the area there. so, this is going to be a situation that is going to

continue to evolve. it is going to go through the transition of the u.s. presidential administration turnover, from the biden administration to the trump administration. this is an issue, i think, that is going to certainly be at the forefront of the u.s. policymakers for quite some time to see how this is all going to unfold. i think there is still probably some fighting that is going to go on inside of syria. the question is whether or not it can be kept inside of syria and not spill over into neighboring states. >> former cia director john brennan, thank you so much for being with us. next, the crisis in syria happening while donald trump is on the world stage in paris. we're going to go there live for an update when breaking news continues after a short break. an update when breaking news continues after a short break.

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fitzgerald in london. what is the latest at this hour? >> reporter: well, look, you know, at this hour the whereabouts of al assad is still unknown. and in fact i want to read for you the rebels released a statement saying that assad has fled, president trump is saying that assad is gone and that russia was not interested in protecting him any longer. and just within the last couple of minutes, russia also confirmed that assad has left his post, following negotiations and this is a direct quote here, with other participants in the conflict and has given instructions for a peaceful power transfer. but, look, we're also hearing from assad's prime minister who said he last had contact with him on saturday evening, but has no idea where he is. now, as far as this offensive is concerned, it has taken everybody by surprise. it was a lightning fast offensive, which kicked off less than two weeks ago, when the rebels captured aleppo. but it accelerated over the last 48 hours. last night, rebels took over homs, the largest province in syria, seizing control of the

syrian lebanese border. and cutting off the road between damascus and syrian coast, which significantly weakened the assad regime. then, of course, hours later, the rebels led by hts or the organization of the liberation of syria are saying that they are in control of damascus, and the country. the group also says they have freed prisons from assad's notorious prisons, and for context here, you know, amnesty international called those prisons human slaughterhouses where mass hangings, and exterminations took place. >> at this point, what do we know about how these rebels plan to govern? >> reporter: you know, it is a really good question. it is something we don't know. it is unclear. what we do know about this organization, hts, is that they have been derived from al qaeda, and sort of in a move to try and look more moderate they broke away from them in 2016. they're telling the people, many of whom are celebrating in the streets of damascus, that they

don't need to fear them. but, again, how will they govern? will they hold elections? these are all things that are yet to be seen. >> all right. nbc's meagan fitzgerald for us, thank you. this morning, donald trump responded to the news of rebel groups claiming to have captured the syrian capital of damascus. in a rambling post, he timed the events to russia, saying vladimir putin is not interested in protecting bashar al assad anymore. trump called for a cease-fire adding, quote, i know vladimir well. this is his time to act. china can help. the world is waiting! on saturday, trump was in paris meeting with foreign leaders at the reopening of the notre dame cathedral. nbc's vaughn hillyard is there too. vaughn? >> reporter: good morning. last night was really a major geopolitical moment for donald trump here and invited by president macron for the cathedral reopening, but a late addition to the grippings of

world leaders to attend were president zelenskyy of ukraine. it was notable because donald trump initially at the french president's palace had a one on one meeting that quickly expanded into a three-person meeting that included ukraine. there is consternation regionally that trump could seek to cut off the financial support to ukraine or force it into an untenable settlement agreement with russia that would include potentially ceding some ukrainian land to russia. that's why you saw in the aftermath, in the meeting of the three, they all went to the cathedral for this service that officially reopened the notre dame after five years, in which it nearly burned down, but also saw overnight, a long post from zelenskyy in which he said that an agreement to bring the war with russia to a close is going to have to include more than just signatures on a paper, but it is going to have to include the return of ukrainian prisoners and acknowledgement that tens of thousands of

ukrainians have died and that russia is in a position that in which they are not going to be able to move back into ukraine or expand other -- into other countries in the region through aggression in the years ahead. of course, that is where you saw donald trump just a few hours ago put out a social media post that was discussing the fall of the assad regime in damascus through the lens of russia in his words, bailing on syria and bailing on the assad regime. and this is a moment in which donald trump has continually suggested he would be able to work with vladimir putin and the russians to end the war in ukraine. but, there is questions about now what happens in syria here moving forward. of course, donald trump has been on the front lines over the years of condemning the obama administration for not taking out assad earlier on and allowing russia to continue to use it as a proxy in the region.

this is complicated. donald trump suggested assad is gone, the russians have suggested the same, but it is not clear exactly where he has gone. this is a very layered geopolitical situation and donald trump is not yet president, but last night he very much appeared to play the role of one as other world leaders, numerous ones, met with him understanding that just a little over a month from now he'll be sworn in and be serving a four-year term beginning in january. >> vaughn, to add to that complexity, it comes at a time when some of trump's picks for positions, department of defense, intelligence, embattled, are you hearing anything from the trump camp about how they are thinking about these picks in light of what we are watching play out in syria? >> reporter: not yet. and i think that's the important

question that is going to be facing particularly tulsi gabbard, who is slated to be up on capitol hill. she is going to be his nominee to be the director of national intelligence overseeing u.s. spy agencies and there was, of course, the two different meetings that gabbard had with bashar al assad, secret meetings, initially, in which she left and conveyed sympathetic messaging toward assad and placed the blame of the chemical gas weapons being used on syrians at the feet of the rebels and not assad, when all intelligence and all reporting pointed directly to assad being responsible for those what would be war crimes. and so, for tulsi gabbard, if she were to proceed in these confirmation proceedings, she is going to face intense scrutiny. republicans have questioned where her loyalties may lie and her posture toward u.s. adversaries including syria's

assad regime and vladimir putin of russia. so, this is going to be i think a moment here in which president-elect trump may question the nomination of tulsi gabbard, if there are republican senators specifically who are skeptical and hesitant to verbally back her because now with assad regime falling here, it only draws attention and scrutiny back to her past positions on the assad regime and serious questions as to the role she sees the u.s. playing in the region and what type of information that was information she had conveyed previously, what information would she convey to the president of the united states in her capacity as director of national intelligence with the type of intelligence that she would be privy to that so many others would not have their hands on. >> i'm looking at that statement you referenced from former president trump on truth social, saying syria is a mess, but it is not our friend and then all caps, the united states should have nothing do with it, this is

not our fight, let it play out, do not get involved. how do you square that level of isolationism with what we're hearing from the biden administration about the necessity of engaging allies in the region? >> reporter: i think that it is at the forefront of why president macron invited donald trump here for this cathedral reopening. of course, not fully aware that syria was going to fall within hours of him meeting with donald trump. but at the same time, there is an acknowledgement and recognition regionally donald trump met with the italian prime minister yesterday, the king of jordan, king of morocco, this for him is a moment in which they understand that -- to a great extent, the biden administration has been a stable partner, you know, if you use in lebanon, the cease-fire agreement that it was president macron and his administration and president biden's administration that were the ones at the forefront of working

out that cease-fire agreement. and so, for president macron, he understands, especially having worked with him through the first trump administration that they need to have the united states as a reliable partner, not only in terms of the nato alliance, and the other regional partners maintaining solidarity in its approach, but also financially, especially if you look at ukraine, the amount of money that the eu relies on in terms of u.s. support, it is substantial. and so i think this is a moment here where you are seeing a reckoning here in europe that the president -- the administration of president biden is outgoing and they need to ensure that they have at all costs a willing partner in president trump who is often on the campaign trail spoken very much of an isolationist position and they have to try to fight that position in order to ensure that they have reliable partners

here in the united states. >> nbc's vaughn hillyard for us in paris. vaughn, thank you. next, we're live in tel aviv with an update from our own raf sanchez. don't go anywhere. update from o sanchez. don't go anywhere. start your day with nature made. and try new zero sugar gummies. where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management ♪♪ when you're a small business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪

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if you're just joining us, we're following breaking news from syria this morning. celebrations breaking out in damascus as rebels in the region decree the assad dynasty over. bashar al assad vacated his post and has fled to an unknown location. syria's prime minister pledged to stay in the country saying, i'm here in my home, i have not left it, and i do not intend to leave. joining us now from the region, nbc news foreign correspondent raf sanchez live in tel aviv. what is the situation on the ground in syria right now? >> reporter: well, this is history in the making and it is happening at lightning speed. the syrian rebels began their surprise attack less than two weeks ago.

they burst out of the small pocket in west syria where they seemed hemmed in and then taking aleppo and homs and moving south and this morning they are in control of the syrian capital of damascus. and they have toppled, as you said, the half century dictatorship of the assad family. first hafez al assad, who ruled for 30 years until his death in 2000, and then the 24-year reign of his son bashar al assad, as you said, the russian foreign ministry is confirming that assad has fled the country that, he has resigned his position. we do not know exactly where he is. it seems likely that he would try to head to one of his allies be it russia, be it iran. but we should say, these are allies who have abandoned him in this critical hour. he relied very, very heavily on the air power of vladimir putin,

he relied very heavily on ground troops from iran and from hezbollah, the iranian-backed militia group. but that weakened. russia bogged down in ukraine, iran, hezbollah bled dry with a year of fighting with israel and this is when they decided to strike, capitalizing on a broader geopolitical picture and at a speed that nobody could have predicted, they have brought, it appears, 13 years of bloody civil war to an end in just over two weeks. the question, what happens now. these rebel groups are not united. they represent a broad church, the main group is called hayat tahrir al sham, in charge up in the northwest of syria, they're an islamist group. they are considered a terrorist organization by the united states. if you go on the state department website today, you can find that there is a $10

million reward for information leading to the capture of their leader, mohammed jolani. the u.s. for the most part, though, has been very hands off in syria for a long time now, and hts has been going to great lengths to reassure the population of syria, the secular groups in damascus, christians in aleppo, alawites along the coast, that they will rule in a fair way, that there will not be retribution and we should say at this point, there are -- there is no evidence that there have been any kind of widespread massacres or widespread retaliation by these victorious rebels as they have swung in. can they govern? that's an enormous question. can they share power with the other rebel groups? some of them from the south, backed more by the united states, by jordan. can they share power with the kurds who are in charge of much of northeast syria?

and what happens to those roughly 1,000 american military personnel who have been stationed up in northeastern syria for years now. their mission was to keep isis from regrouping, but they now find themselves in a country that has been turned upside down almost overnight. >> you were in tel aviv, what does it mean for israel, what does it mean for gaza? >> reporter: that's something that israeli defense officials, israeli decisionmakers are trying to understand right now. they were no fans of bashar al assad, a close ally of iran. and you can see on the map, syria strategically located in between iran, iraq and lebanon. so, it was a key transit point for iranian weapons that were heading to hezbollah in lebanon that were pointed south towards israel. nobody is shedding any tears here in tel aviv over the fall of bashar al assad.

the question, though, is what will this future rebel-led government bring? as we said, these are islamists, people who were in the past linked to al qaeda, they are certainly not fans of israel ideologically. they're not a million miles off of hamas. they're a combination of islamists and nationalists. and one of the key, key, key concerns for both israel and the united states is what happens to those stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons that bashar al assad is known to have had. there will be a lot of worry about trying to make sure that those do not fall into the hands of extremist groups. we know that israel having managed to achieve this cease-fire through diplomacy from the united states and france with hezbollah continues to fight, or continues to bomb in gaza against hamas. but they are now sending more forces up to the israeli

occupied golan heights, on the border with syria, because there is deep concern here about the possibility of the conflict in syria spilling over the border. we should say that at this point, the rebels are making clear their priority is ing power inside of syria, they're not threatening israel, but there is a lot of worry here given just the deep, deep instability inside syria. >> you have watched the celebrations occurring in syria, millions displaced since 2011. what does this mean for them? >> reporter: for a lot of people, this is a day they had dreamed of, that many long ago gave up hope would ever come. there were people who i have known since 2016, they were in the city of aleppo, as bashar al assad's forces were closing in. these were people who i was convinced were going to lose their lives when assad took over. many of them managed to escape

to that small pocket of northwestern syria. and today they are jubilant. they are on the streets. they are on social media, they are declaring that they are a free people, that they are living in a free syria, that this is proof that 13 years of sacrifice were not in vain. remember, this uprising against bashar al assad began peacefully in 2011. these were peaceful protesters, during the arab spring, who took to the streets, calling for reform, calling for democracy, calling for the respect of civil rights, and assad turned his guns and tanks on them and it led to this more than a decade of civil war, where we have seen countries across the region, across the world really, including the united states and russia, putting their thumbs on the scale. today, many people feel that ultimately this is a victory for the syrian people and the question is can they convert this military victory into some

kind of long-term stability that protects the rights of the syrian people and it is worth saying syria is a majority soviet sunny muslim country but there are in groups, syria, alawite, christian, jews and you can bet there are a lot of people from the minority groups, from secular neighborhoods in damascus and elsewhere, who are deeply, deeply worried about how these islamist rebels are going to govern, and i think it will be one of the early tasks of this rebel government to show whether they can be a leadership for all the people of syria, or whether this is just going to be sectarianism of a different flavor. >> nbc's raf sanchez for us in tel aviv, thank you. next, msnbc military analyst lieutenant general steph twitty joins the discussion. stay with us. twitty joins the discussion stay with us

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more on the breaking news out of syria and the apparent collapse of the assad regime. the economists highlighting the speed at which they took control of the country last week, saying they have seen scenes of rebellion before, but the country did not expect to see assad flee. nbc news has not confirmed reports that assad has fled the country. joining me, general twitty. your reaction to the apparent swift collapse of syria's government.

>> yeah, i think it comes as no surprise given that over the past 14 years you had several warring factions in syria that really were not working alongside each other. once they started working together, they into knew they c have success against assad and that's what you saw. you have six different warring factions starting to work toward toppling assad regime. they were able to do it lightning fast and here we are today. but i would caution all, we are in a period of uncertainty and we must remember that these are warring factions, rebels, many of whom have been aligned with al qaeda in the past, isis in the past. so there is a period of uncertainty here at this point in time. so we'll just have to wait and see what happens here. >> it should be noted there are still u.s. troops stationed in eastern syria, part of the counterterrorism mission. what will their role be in the

coming days and weeks? >> yeah, i think we'll have to find out as you know. their role has been to go after isis, defeat isis. they have done a tremendous job in doing that, to ensure that isis does not regain a foot hold into iraq, into jordan, and other places throughout the middle east. hopefully they can continue to do that job because they have been extremely successful. >> general twitty, what do you make of the iranians apparently declining to save the assad regime? >> i think when you take a look at the entire strategic picture here, you have russia that has been bogged down in ukraine. they have been aligned with the assad regime for over 14 years now. you have the iranians that have been aligned as well with the assad regime. they have been bogged down in this proxy fight with israel. and as you know, their proxies,

hezbollah and hamas have been seriously beaten at this point. so i see a landscape here where the russians could not react because they have been bogged down, the iranians could not react because they have been defeated from a proxy perspective, and it is no mas for the iranians at this point in time. they want to ensure they regain their foot hold as part of their proxies in hezbollah and hamas. and support that fight from my view. >> i want to ask you about something that nsa sullivan has said on this matter when it comes to the biden administration's priorities here. one, that the fighting in syria not lead to the resurgence of isis. they said they're going to take steps ourselves directly and working with the syrian democratic forces, the kurds. can you give us a sense of what that might look like? >> yes, so, we have always had a

relationship with the syrian democratic kurds. when i was in uniform, i worked with them, and the soldiers that you hear about, the 900 that are -- they're aligned more closely with them as well. so i think what that really means is, number one, because we're in this period of uncertainty, we do not know what this government is going to look like in syria. so, it is incumbent upon us to ensure that we keep a focus on isis and ensure that isis does not take -- regain foot hold both in syria and makes its way into iraq or in jordan. so that's our primary focus that we should maintain. >> well, general, let's talk about that. because we have watched before as forces that were joined together in the interest of fighting then have to pivot to

governing together. when does that work? when does that fall apart? what will you be watching for in these forthcoming most fragile days? >> yeah, a couple of things i'll be watching for. jolani has stated he wants a moderate government. what does that mean? is that an inclusive government where all the people of syria? when we talk about moderation, what does that mean? is that also mean we're going to seek elections, the syrians will seek election and jolani will seek election or will he try to maintain power as part of hts? and, oh, by the way, there is a significant humanitarian crisis in syria, you have 14 million people that are either displaced or refugees. 3 million in turkey alone. a million in germany. and so, there is a lot of work to be done in terms of putting

this, whatever it is, government, together. the lawlessness, there has been lawlessness in syria for quite some time. there have been all these warring factions, they may seek to regain some type of power as well. and so this is going to be a difficult task in front of hts or whomever decides to take some type of leadership role here. hopefully they'll seek election. hopefully it will be inclusive. hopefully a moderate government, hopefully it will be a government that will work with his neighbors such as lebanon, syria, excuse me, lebanon, jordan, israel, and so there is a lot of hope there. we shall see. >> lieutenant general steph twitty, thank you. more on the breaking news from syria after this. k you. more on the breaking news from syria after this.

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nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons is in doha with that part of the story. >> reporter: hi there. there are few diplomats here in the middle east, mourning the removal of a man who we must now call former syrian president assad. a man, of course, with so much blood on his hands. there are many diplomats here at this major international conference in doha asking the question, where is assad now? today, i spoke to an official from the united arab emirates, official from russia, official from turkey, if any of them know where assad is, they aren't saying. and possibly none of them do know. certainly a turkish official that i spoke to simply shrugged when i asked him. when i spoke to a russian official, he claimed he doesn't know. whether or not assad is in moscow or maybe in tehran, there are questions too about the future of the country that he used to run. the foreign affairs minister for

turkey giving a briefing here, spokesman for the qataris giving a briefing, each of them calling on the international community to get behind the syrian people, to respect the sovereignty and integrity of syria. they were calling for unity, but there are deep divisions after so many years of civil war in syria. the turkish foreign affairs minister, when asked whether the talks going forward should include a group called the sdf, which is mostly kurdish in syria, he said, well, they are connected to a group that turkey and other countries designate as terrorists, the pkk and therefore they should have no part in the future of syria. there are calls for unity, but many challenges ahead. >> nbc's keir simmons, thank you. coming up at the top of the hour, michael steele will join me to continue our breaking news coverage on the weekend.

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good morning. i'm a lis ya menendez. the syrian government has fallen and russia says the syrian president has left the country. assad relinquished the presidency for a peaceful transition of