that will do it for me, thanks for watching, i will be back next saturday and sunday at 6:00 p.m. eastern. follow us on tiktok, x, bluesky, and catch clips of the show on youtube don't go anywhere, ayman is next. good evening credit tonight on ayman, the fall of 50 years

of the assad family role. what this means for syrians and the balance of power across the middle east. plus, one of the u.s. lawmakers to call assad a sham. i'm going to ask them how involved the lesson to be in serious ongoing transition. and president-elect trump is sparking new controversy today with threats against the members of the january 6th committee. i am ayman mohyeldin, let's do it. last night, syria's rebel forces stormed the capitol, damascus, and declared that bashar al-assad's dictatorship was finally over. today, it was reported that he and his family fled to moscow. this wasn't just the end of his regime, it was the collapse of more than 50 years of single- family role. that of assad. the speed of the takeover was astonishing but in just days, rebel forces and their leader took over cities from the north

right to the capital, facing very little pushback. that is partially due to e ron and russia as its allies, using up many of the resources on its own wars. now, this is of the change has been dramatic. assad and his father who ruled before him toppled to the ground. joy erupting in the streets all across the country. thousands of imprisoned syrians who were in jails for daring to speak out against assad's role were finally set three, reunited with her family so they hadn't seen in some cases for years. social media was filled with heartbreaking stories. one in particular was about a prisoner trembling and barely remembering who he was when the rebels released him. and at the borders, syrian refugees, many who fled years ago, are lining up, desperate to return to their homes that they were forced out of point is a lot to unpack here, but to truly grasp what this moment means for syrians, you have to

go back 13 years, to the very beginning. massive protests broke out in tunisia, egypt, libya, and yemen, and of course, syria. the millions that took part in this revolution believed in the very same ideals, freedom, and dignity. syrians also one of the many political prisoners throughout the country later released. syrians felt very similarly to this moment right now, they were hopeful and at the brink of toppling a decades long regime. the revolutionary forces leading the charge against the regime were made up of different factions. activists, former soldiers who turned against the assad regime, minorities oppressed under him like the kurds and the syrians, and many more. at one of the biggest differences then versus now is that assad didn't leave. in fact, iran stepped him to back him. he crushed aspirations and made life unbearable, especially for his dissenters, and that brought syria into a full- fledged civil war.

this forces shot and killed thousands of anti-regime protesters in just the first few months, and he sent war takes them to the same cities that we sought rebel forces take over over the past two weeks. tanks that targeted anyone in their path, whether it was protesters, bystanders, women, or children. in may 2011, assad medi-cal later move to undermine the revolution. he began removing islamic extremists from prison while arresting thousands of peaceful protesters, journalists, and activists. a diplomat who later joined opposition until the wall street journal that assad and release them because he feared a continued, peaceful revolution. he wanted them to interrupt the proper speed and nearly a year after the revolution began, i traveled to the heart of the uprising for nbc news and saw firsthand how life changed under assad's brutal crackdown. take a listen. >> outside the mosque, but it is very difficult to gauge click sentiment here because of the very heavy presence of the security forces inside the city.

>> even on this busy street, people wouldn't speak to us, saying it was too dangerous, but others off-camera told us what life is really like. this man leads us away from government minders and into a narrow alley. we promised not to show his face. he shows us gunshot wounds suffered during the protest and tells us a different story than what government officials had been saying. he says only armed gangs in the city are the security forces and hired dogs who attack cities at night. the situation is dire and he says we will continue to demand the fall of the regime. and things got even worse when the unthinkable happened. despite barack obama's redlined warning about chemical weapons, assad crested butte by 2013, he was using chemical weapons on his own people, possibly thousands were killed, and survivors suffered foaming at the mouth, seizures, and lifelong burns and injuries. u.s. air strikes targeted that territory.

assad asked russia for help, leading to bombings, air strikes, and brutal war crimes in opposition held areas. meanwhile, turkey right on syria's border supported some rebel groups, but also attacked kurdish forces to drive them away. this is just a few reasons why the civil war started another big one is that the international community simply turned a blind eye to syria. they normalized the frozen conflict and assad holding onto power. in countries like iran, the u.s., russia, and even israel took advantage of this to advance their own geopolitical interests. 13 years later, we are now looking at around 600,000 killed in syria, millions of refugees, and the country that lost complete hope, until last night. now, as this unfolds, pundits and experts keep saying it is just more of the same. many draw comparisons to syria and other post-arab spring countries. in a lot of ways, that is a lazy analysis. there are a few key things that

set this moment apart and they're worth noticing take a listen to what the syrian prime minister who stayed behind said just yesterday. >> [ speaking in a non-english language ] >> he is talking about preserving state institutions and a safe transition for citizens, which is something we haven't seen before. and the rebel leader of hts said this on cnn just a few days ago before accepting his help in this transition. >> the revolution has transitioned from chaos and randomness to a state of order, both in civil and institutional matters, and in military operations alike. >> there is no doubt that the next chapter in syria will be complicated. there are many layers to consider. the man that you just saw there, the hts rebel leader, had ties to both al qaeda and

i.s.i.s. syrians already know this. the focus on these complexities shouldn't overshadow the moment that we find ourselves in, though. to move forward, syria had to end the assad families half- century rule. now, syrians have a real chance for a peaceful future with dignity and determination. this is their historic opportunity. with me now to unpack all of this is a syrian analyst, and the author of the home that was our country, a memoir of syria. both know what activism and journalism were like firsthand under the assad regime. it is great to have both of you with us. let me just start broadly speaking because we were talking before the show and you were saying you don't know a single syrian who has slept in the past 24 hours, i think that is a fair sentiment from the syrians i have spoken to. tell us about what this moment means for syrians who live in syria, refugees, and syrians who live in the west.

>> it is monumental, it is cathartic, and it is unfathomable until last night, quite frankly, or until the days leading up to it. for many people, this is only regime they have ever known. there was the emphasis they were making about the assad, their family was the head of the dynasty, but the regime has many parts, and for it to have been entrenched for over 50 years, it requires more than just one family rule. i think it is something that i had stopped dreaming about, because obviously all the currents were towards the normalization and towards just sort of asking syrians to pay the price for wanting [ inaudible ] in the region. and my father died before he could see this moment, and my mom is approaching a certain age, and i had been thinking recently, because i had been working on a story out of turkey on syrian refugees there, we had been saying to each other, are we ever going

to go back? are we going to walk the streets? my mom has been very active on facebook, and other reasons why i can't go back, including the anonymous reporting i did out of syria for the times and other stuff but i think right now, there is a potential to imagine something very different. i think people had settled into their lives and had settled into this sort of realizing that the syrian conflict or the syrian revolution and the one that became a civil war was never going to be understood for what it was, and it had already become a tool to be used by these experts that you talked about in your intro, to sort of talk about these -- to make a career about talking about politics in a way that really forgot the people that were on the ground. and i think for now -- of course, i'm sure much is going to come out about who sort of signed off on this and who turned a blind eye to this, but this was done in many ways by syrians, and i think for now, there is this feeling that syrians' destinies -- the

destiny of each person, and even the country itself, might be in the hands of syrians themselves. ask i will come back to the idea about the regime in just a moment, but i want to get your thoughts as well, somebody who was an activist, maybe it was still considers himself an activist working for this moment, how do you feel about this moment that you find yourself in as a syrian? >> yeah, hi, everyone, i would just say my congratulations to syrians on toppling assad. i mean, my dad was born into the assad regime, i was born into the assad regime. if you ask me, we don't know. this is the first time we get rid of a syrian president, so these moments are just joyful for all of us. we are crying a lot. we are calling families. we have been talking to friends that we do not talk to for years because as arianna mentioned, we lost hope in the recent years, and we focused a lot on the negative -- negativity of

the differences between ourselves as syrians. so, everything is now -- it is a new day. it is a new age for every one of us. we have a lot to do, but i think we can reserve at least one day for celebration, and maybe we can start mourning tomorrow, too. like we lost a lot of people, we lost friends, we lost family members. it is a lot of feelings, ayman, it is just too much, but i think it is a good start for us and our country. >> it is a good start, and i definitely don't want to be the one who rains on that parade but i certainly feel the sense of optimism as somebody who has covered the arab spring for 13 years, 14 years. you talked about the days ahead and looking ahead. what do you think needs to happen to assure syrians of the continuity of peaceful governance, if you will?

pluralism, i think a lot of people who are watching this are concerned about who comes next and what that means specifically for syrians, minority communities. >> there is a lot of work to be done, and i don't want to sound naove, and i don't think anybody in syria is naove about what lies ahead, we have seen many different situations and scenarios layout on syrian borders, from what happened in iraq with what happened in lebanon at the end of the civil war, and the idea that we can just sort of -- let's just get over what happened and not have any kind of justice and accountability. i think syrians as it is not that syrians are turning to think about this tomorrow, syrians have had 13 years to start thinking about this. i think when it became clear that the revolution had failed in the initial years and people were sort of cast out and exiled, people have not stopped working for a moment. there have been so many efforts to think about the day after and to plan for the day after while on outside that i don't think we are coming into this

with syrians and not having any sorts of plans in motion. but i think justice and accountability have always been one of the tenants of this. some kind of stability and security, and yes, assurances that the multiethnic and the multi religious and -- fabric of syrian society will survive. i think one of the things we started to talk about before and didn't get into that is fundamentally different than 13 years ago is that for the 54 years or the 40 years of the regime proceeding 2011, the state had always been a chaperone between syrians. syrians never had open conversations with each other because of the fear, the idea that the walls had ears. so, we didn't really, fully know each other. and the lack of infrastructure that connected our cities and our populations met we were strangers to each other. and when you have all the sudden people from different places in the same refugee camp moving out into the same city together or the parts of the same refugee populations in europe, syrians began to know

each other in a different way. i don't know if giuliani is completely sincere. i do believe that we as a people, syrians, and syrians in the diaspora as well, have come to know each other in a way that we didn't necessarily know each other before, and that might allow for the protection of that pluralism to, not from above, but actually from a society itself. >> to arias point, let me ask you, if i can, about the remnants of the regime. yes, assad and his family ruled syria, but it was a system in place. how do you began to hold that system accountable or are you going to need some of that system in order to preserve the state's ability to function, just in the immediate short term? and to pick up on another point, are you confident that somebody like giuliani can lead a transition in syria or would you want to see somebody else emerge? >> yeah, i mean, first part of your question comes to accountability. as arianna mentioned, a lot of

organizations have worked on documentation of violations in syria, so, there is a lot of work that has been done already, and i am just hoping that with the transitional government or whatever form of transitional process we will have in place, there should be a huge part of that covers accountability. and all the investigative work almost has been done already, so i am hoping that is one part. when it comes to preserving the government's organizations, i mean, we feel optimistic. i think the current, temporary syrian government could actually stay in place with acceptance from the grits in damascus. we think this is a really good thing. i don't think we need to preserve any intelligence agencies, those were actually the source of our problem, so i hope we will not preserve any of them. when it comes to your question

on do we trust julani to lead this process, syrians were protesting julani three months ago, protesting the violations against syrian people. i don't think -- in the past like 12 years, 13 years, syrian oppositions mainly had an active political life. like i, yes, we [ inaudible ] our own identities, different political opinions, so we have this healthy [ inaudible ] between us, although we cannot agree on everything. and i think that skepticism that we cannot really tell trust julani . i'm just hoping that he has been showing a lot of wise decision-making process, i just hope that he will understand that we are done with a one-man show. we just hope that he can also

not seclude anyone in this process. >> as i was saying to aria before the show, syria has had the benefit of watching other arab countries go through the erin springs, so hopefully syria will have learned from the mistakes and chart a different path forward. get some sleep, it is going to be a long journey, we are going to need your voices in this mix for many months and years to come. thank you to the both of you. next up, i will be joined by democratic congressman who spoke out earlier this year against american normalization of assad and his rule, stay with us. stay with us. everyone customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. customize and sa— he will be he will be and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ for more than a decade

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we turn now to capitol hill where lawmakers have been reacting to the stunning collapse of the assad regime in syria. there is what house intelligence chairman mike turner said earlier today about what comes next. >> this is a blow to iran, a blow to russia. we are seeing what is likely a disintegration in syria. the big questions will be what does this mean for the u.s., what does this mean for iran, russia, the neighbors of israel and jordan, which are strong allies to the united states? hopefully, this could be an opportunity where there could be diplomatic support there that could hopefully help in this transition in syria. >> my next guest, democratic congressman spoke out on the house floor earlier this year in favor of the assad anti- normalization act.

>> some countries are even willing to recognize the assad regime. america must not. assad, his regime, and their backers have given us no basis whatsoever to justify normalizing relations with a government responsible for the slaughter of 600,000 men, women, and children. >> and congressman joins me now, it is great to have you back on the show, quite a historic 24 hours. let me start by getting your reaction to assad when he was re-elected for a fourth term. back then, he called it a sham victory in a rigged election, saying it was only another example of the despotism of a dictator who has repeatedly demonstrated his unflinching willingness to poison and butchering his own people to prop up a regime which has failed the syrian people for decades. the regime has now collapsed. what is going on through your head, sir?

>> i have three observations. first of all, i have been texting and talking to numerous syrian americans who are elated about what has happened in syria, we have a new day. secondly, we are watching mr. julani very carefully, actions speak louder than words. how is he going to treat for instance minorities, even other shiite elements who are in -- and of course the kurds in syria. and then the third is, you know, we have roughly 1000 american troops stationed in syria, mainly to fight off i.s.i.s. but also, you know, we keep a very close eye on elements who are proxies of iran. and so, how is julani, how is the new government going to view i.s.i.s., how are they going to view the use of syria as basically a transit point for iranian arms shipments to

hezbollah and lebanon, which as you know, have been used against israel? so, those are a few of my immediate observations. >> before we get into the geopolitics of this, congressman, let me just ask you point blankly, do you believe the u.s. had any role with the timing of this? i mean, it is quite remarkable, i have spoken to many syrians as well, many of them are surprised by the fact that the rebels decided to launch this offensive in the span of two weeks, they caught everybody by surprise, and many of them doubt that it was prompted entirely and organically by syrians. >> let's just say this, i think that the u.s. has been very supportive of a number of rebel groups there, and i think that it's entirely within the realm of possibility that our assistance has been very useful in the most recent effort, but stepping back for a second, we have to understand how russian and iranian support have really

primarily propped up the assad regime, and the fact that the russians were so weakened through their war in ukraine, as well as how iranian elements have been weakened in recent weeks, especially with u.s. support of israel against iran has helped to lead to this moment now. >> you talked about the actions of abu mohammad al-julani, the leader of hts, a man who still has a $10 million bounty on his head, who was a member or an affiliate of various terrorist groups, including al qaeda and i.s.i.s. at one point. he is signaling a different phase, if you will, and you're saying you want to see actions. tell me what it would take for the u.s. congress or the state department specifically to un- designate him from that foreign terrorist organization list. >> good question. i think that right now, what we want to see from this gentleman is we want to see him put into

practice what he has said, which is he wants the different sections to peacefully coexist in syria. he is not going to undertake some sort of islamization of syria the way that the taliban has done in afghanistan. remember, the taliban also had some nice words before the recent actions, which for instance have stripped women of all of their rights in afghanistan. so, we need to watch them very carefully. and also, we need to watch how he treats i.s.i.s. how he treats iran. how he treats -- you know, russians have military bases still in syria. what is he going to do with them? so, we are going to be watching all of these actions very closely, and then making judgments after that. >> all right, congressman raja, thank you so much for joining

us, greatly appreciate your insight, sir. >> thank you so much. coming up, donald trump says he is going to pardon january 6th writers while members of the committee that investigated january 6th should be jailed, that is up next. hat ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. my mental health was better. but uncontrollable movements called td,tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day.

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[♪♪] did you know, there's a detergent that gets your dishes up to 100% clean, even in an older dishwasher? try cascade platinum plus. for sparkling clean dishes even on the toughest jobs. just scrape, load and you're done. switch to cascade platinum plus. moments ago, president- elect donald trump announced more pics for his administration. he posted on truth social that he has tapped his legal spokesperson to join his white

house team as counselor to the president. michael and tim, who served under trump at the national security council during his first term, is his pick for director of policy planning at the state department, and the president-elect has nominated christopher landau to serve as his deputy secretary of state. landau previously served as trump's ambassador to mexico. now, all of this comes after trump sat down with my colleague, kristen welker, for dispersed a network tv interview since winning the election. in one of several chilling moments, he had this to say about the lawmakers on the january 6th committee who dared to investigate him for inciting an insurrection. >> and cheney was behind it, and so was betty thompson, and everybody on that committee -- for what they did, honestly, they should go to jail. >> it is so you think liz cheney should go to jail? >> for what they did -- i think anybody that voted in favor --

>> are you going to direct your fbi director and your attorney general to send them to jail? >> not at all, i think they're going to have to look at that, but i am going to focus on drill, baby, drill. >> joining me now is molly john fast, vanity fair special correspondent and host of a podcast, and jason stanley, professor of philosophy at yale university and author of the book, erasing history: how fascists rewrite the past to control the future, which is the title of a book that continues to be more relevant and appropriate with every passing day. and perhaps the pardoning of january 6th rioters, we are going to get to the discussion around liz cheney, but it seems like the idea that he wants to pardon january 6th goes to the heart of what you write about, it is a rewriting and retelling of the history that we all lived and that we all saw. >> that's right, the goal is to replace that by a kind of myth and adherence to that myth means you are loyal. so, we have already heard that

there are loyalty tasks of the new administration picked, and the loyalty tasks include whether or not you believe -- who you believe won the 2010 election. so, this rewriting of history, this demand that you go in for the myth, i mean, look at it this way, we haven't heard about voter fraud since the election. you know, it just disappeared as a topic. and everybody knew it was fake -- >> but the light has no more relevance, the lie doesn't matter anymore, so they just get away with it and here we are. and by the way, he was asked about that today and he was on it by saying it was too big to read, about this election. he won by a very small margin, of 100,000+ between a few rust belt states that he could have easily gone the other way, but going back to the core of what we wanted to discuss, the idea that he is saying liz cheney, a member of congress, betty thompson, a member of congress, who were doing their oversight responsibilities, should go to jail for simply doing their job

in investigating him has to be chilling. >> yeah. i think it is meant to be chilling. right? and this cheney did exactly the right thing. she said no, this was my job to investigate this case, and her pushback was right, you have to stand up, right? and she did exactly the thing that she should have done. we don't do these things in america. we do not jail the president's political opponents just because they annoy him. and that is it, period, paragraph, i mean, there were things he said today in that interview, like wanting to end birthright citizenship, that is in the constitution. >> well, he wants to do it by executive order, he said. but again, you know, the objective is one thing, the process is another, in the process of how he wants to do these things -- my colleague pushed back on him saying he would order the fbi -- he said no, i wouldn't order the fbi,

but they should look into it, while he is in the process of firing an fbi director and bringing in kash patel who is a subservient loyalist, he doesn't have to tell him what to do. he is not going to direct kash patel to investigate this, because he knows if kash patel wants the job, then he will be investigating these people without me having to explicitly tell him so. >> if you want to understand what is going on, think about the mafia. the same thing. and again, the literature, historical literature on dictators talks about the relationship. hannah ran talks about this between the fascist leaders and the mob boss. so, you hire the people who are -- already know what you want. it is a very familiar strategy we all know from gangster films. i am very relieved that they are not targeting the people who wrote statements for the january 6th committee like myself. [ laughter ] but you know, it

is completely -- this is all par for the course, targeting opposition politicians and the media, and i worry it is being normalized by the media. they are just reporting on it as if it is normal. >> and then you probably wouldn't do anything until it is too little, too late. >> and he can't. we in the media, we in america have to stand up for norms and institutions. so, we have to say this is a redline. and i think what has been helpful with that gaetz thing was that all this information came to light and gaetz dropped out. and you know, republicans -- a lot of republicans don't want to do their constitutional duty of advise and consent. we heard tommy tuberville say he could pick the best people. but you know, they have to. this is their responsibility. the people must hold these senators to count. they must call their representatives and must say this is your job, you do this for us, you serve at the privilege of the american people.

>> let me play another sound bite for you from the interview, this was when truck was asked about whether he would hire a special prosecutor to go after president biden, watch. >> you wrote on truth social in 2023 that you're going to appoint a real special prosecutor to go after joe biden, now you're saying you're not going to do that. >> i will say this, no, i'm not doing that unless i find something that i think is reasonable. but that is not going to be my decision, that is going to be pam bondi's decision, and to a different extent, kash patel, so i think they're both going to get approved. >> i am not doing that unless i find something i think is reasonable. >> yeah, i mean, it's the same point. it's that he has hired the people who are, we know, kash patel actually provided a list of people to target. and he has hired them already and he can wash his hands. he can say it is their decision. so, this is obviously what is

going on, and this is just how authoritarian regimes work, and it is extremely concerning that what we have is a kind of paint by number authoritarianism. >> about your thoughts about that as well? we kind of laughed about the fact that we sometimes think of donald trump as this clueless idiot, but then the people around him are the ones that are going to be maniacal, but he, in his own right, is maniacal in the way that he talks about opposition figures, the way he just said that i am not doing that unless i find something that i think is reasonable. >> so, we talk a lot about guardrails, and we have seen a lot of guardrails fail, and one of the very few guardrails we have left is that trump is not that good at this, right? and that his people all have very different wants and desires, and a lot of them don't necessarily lineup with each other's. so, i do think there's going to be quite a lot of infighting, we are already seeing that, and i think there's going to be

quite -- look, none of us know what is going to happen, but we can hope that some of this infighting ends up, you know, sort of keeping the damage that they are able to inflict into our norms and institutions to a minimum. ask molly, jason, stick around, we got a lot more to discuss with you, we are going to squeeze in a quick break, but first, the update on the manhunt for a murdered executive. and gabriel sheppton says president biden should pardon him in his final weeks in office. he is going to join me at 8:00 p.m. eastern, do not miss that interview. >> [ music ] terview. >> [ music ] ♪♪ fun recip... (high pitched sound) (high pitched sound) (high pitched sound)

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police are on day five of a manhunt for a person of interest who fled new york city after he murdered unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson, and we are continuing to learn new details about the nature of that search. nbc news correspondent priscilla thompson has the latest. >> reporter: ayman, we know that nypd's elite team is in central park, looking in the water near where they found that backpack they believe belonged to the shooter, trying to see if they are going to be able to find the gun that was used in the shooting. we are told that the waters are very murky right now, so they're having to use a sort of grid system and really meticulously search that area for any additional evidence, this is a highly trained team

that knows how to find and also take care of that evidence, so that it can be brought back and properly processed. and we know that late friday, they did find that backpack, but the gun was not inside of it. they found a jacket inside of it, and also monopoly money, so already, that backpack has been taken to a lab where it has been inspected for fingerprints and possibly dna evidence, and coming out overnight, new photos of this person of interest here, where you see very clearly in his eyes and that photo that appears to have been taken in the back seat of a taxicab. also, there is a shot of him walking on the sidewalk, this comes after the nypd has been putting together a really extensive timeline of his movements after that shooting took place, he fled to central park on a bike and also got out of the park on a bike, but he made his way to taxicab and police essentially lost track of him, so they are working to figure out what busts you may have gotten on and where he might be right now, and so, of course, having these pictures out there, looking to see if anyone may have seen him get on

a bus, get off of a bus, is important. we also know that there are nypd detectives in atlanta now, looking at video there at the greyhound station to see if they can figure out if he got on there. they're also looking at other stops along the route into new york city to see if they can try to just get more information about his movements as tonight, there remains no arrest and no public identification of this individual. ayman? >> priscilla thompson, thank you for that update. next up, how democrats could leverage state power to fight back during a second trump administration. >> [ music ] nistration. >> [ music ] fda-approved for 17 types of cancer, including certain early-stage and advanced cancers. one of those cancers is early-stage non—small cell lung cancer. keytruda may be used with certain chemotherapies before surgery when you have early-stage lung cancer, which can be removed by surgery, and then continued alone after surgery to help prevent your lung cancer from coming back. keytruda can cause your immune system

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how can democrats have willpower with the second gop controlled congress, one strategy comes straight from the gop playbook, leveraging state power. that could mean making strategic investments in red states like expanding alternative energy options to

reshape politics on the local level, or studying the tactics of republicans like texas governor abbott who used buses to send or than 100,000 migrants to sanctuary cities over the last two years. now, democrats to take inspiration from this blueprint and flip it towards more progressive policies to wield some newfound power in another era of maga all it takes. a staff writer for the atlantic writes, "liberals might soon discover that federalism, one of the hobby horses of conservatives, contains not only the hope of stubborn resistance, but the possibility of regeneration." molly and jason are back with me. this is quite a fascinating idea , probably a very important one. and i will read you at the center of this 170 page unpublished memo by democratic try to just sarah knight, they lay out how democrats should implement the gop tactics. it is something they begin working on over a year ago to prepare for a second trump term. is this something serious? can it be done?

and if so, how? >> yeah, it has been already done. if you look at texas, here is an example of a state that used to federalism to completely undermine. they overturned a roe v. wade with sb 8 a year before roe v. wade was overturned. and went to the shadow docket, the supreme court was like we are not going to touch this thing, and they were in a six week ban, then. so yes, for sure, this can happen, and we have seen examples of it and a lot of different red states. and i think there is also a political opportunity here for someone like gavin newsom, which he is already taken, right? because he is already doing meetings of ways that california can push back against trumpism. and remember, california is like the size of a country. so, if california starts pushing back against the federal government, i mean, this could be opening the door to something really good. >> you mentioned gavin newsom. last month, you had a j.b. pritzker, they formed this governor's safeguarding

democracy group, basically to kind of advanced policies on a state level that could push back against anything that the federal government tries to do that could encroach, if you will, on civil liberties or our fundamental, basic rights in this country. your thoughts on whether that can be effective? >> we will see if it is going to be effective, guessing whether it is going to be effective is not in my academic purview, but we are going to see, as far as my job goes, universities, we will see weaponizing title 6 against universities. we are going to hear talk of antiwhite discrimination, maybe anti-christian discrimination. so, we will see a kind of retribution for the federal civil rights focus on the south over the decades. this is -- on some people say, this is the ultimate victory, so we are going to see that.

and of course, the south used tactics to fight back against federal civil rights enforcement , and of course, you know, you have large black populations in the south who do not have much power still, so i am not sure that we can do that consistently with our democratic ideals, play some of the same tricks. but it is going to be important to at least look and see how the south did that. >> i'm curious to get your thoughts, just from an expert point of view on this, there is this notion of flooding the zone with everything that the trump second administration wants to try to do, ending birthright citizenship as you mentioned, title 6, there could be other aspects of mass deportations, going after journalists, jailing opposition figures, jailing members of congress. there are so many things coming down the pipeline that you

almost don't know where you need to put your resources, so, if you were to advise democrats and people who are going to try to fight these multiple threats that are coming at us, where do you think should the energy be concentrated? >> well, i think institutions like my own, yale and other universities, need to take on multiple threats at once, because they affect us. for instance, the attacks on immigration. the united states has the greatest university system in the world. everyone sends their kids to our universities. you start attacking that system, making it harder and harder and more frightening, essentially, for people to come here, you're going to undermine that. that means universities have multiple stakes in this, and that is going to be true about all of our institutions. they are going to have multiple stakes, so we need to have everybody fighting multiple things at the same time. >> your thoughts on this, i mean, do you think that there is

-- there should be a cohesive strategy in how you try to fight these, even at organizations like the is the lu, they have already identified things that they could potentially go after in a court system, but also outside of the courts, politically a grassroots level, we are going to be fighting on so many different fronts. >> yeah, i mean, in the first trump administration, he had a lot of trouble fighting in court and he lost a lot of court battles, so that is definitely worth doing. and the courts were able to slow a lot of his legislation down or to stop it or to make it , you know, sort of take the teeth out of it, so i think that is super important. but i would say even just on a micro level, not on the macro, people need to not despair. right? there is a feeling here, a lot of people feel like this election did not go the way that they thought it should, and i think there's a lot of fear in this country right now, and it is really pertinent to

realize like there are still a lot of norms and institutions, and we can protect them. and you know, american democracy is still going, you're going to have a peaceful transfer of power, and the republicans and democrats, i really hope -- again, i am being a little optimistic here, but that they will protect the federal government and these institutions, so that we have another presidential election in four years. but let's hope your optimism prevails over jason's pessimism, is that right? is it safe to say you have a little more pessimism? >> california is the world's largest multiracial democracy. norms and institutions, these can fold, but we have states. i think this is a great strategy, federalism, because california is a powerful economy, a powerful state. it is not like you don't have very powerful forces resisting what is coming. >> jason and molly, thank you as always, great to have you on

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