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on this new hour of ayman, more questions than answers about what's next in syria after the fall of bashar al assad and his family. president president-elect donald trump revealing his plans for birthright citizenship in a new nbc news interview. and i'll speak about a

presidential pardon in the final days of the biden administration. i'm ayman mohyeldin and let's do it. after more than half a century of rule and 13 years after the larch of the arab spring, the al assad family is no longer ruling syria. this is the stunning result of a two week long rebel offensive that ended last night as syria's rebel forces stormed the capital glass damascus and declared the 24-year dictatorship was over. according to russian state media assad has fled to moscow, the country that has been helping prop up his dictatorship. assad was a trained ophthalmologist who studied medicine in london and married a british banker. that soft spokenness belied his use of massive and sometimes

sadistic torture to maintain his hold on power, a strategy he learned from his father who crushed a city's uprising in 1982, a defining moment in the history of middle eastern autocrats and what might have been the single deadliest act by any arab government against its own population in the modern middle east. that history helps explain the joy, the tears and excitement that we are now seeing in the streets of syria and in the syrian diaspora as statues of both men are toppled in celebration of a moment they thought would never come, but amidst this joy is concern about what comes next. syria, particularly this last decade that al assad clung to power, saw ugly violence and brutal economic conditions and saw world powers and regional actors using a weakened syria as a violent playground in a regional power struggle it. has led to a brain drain and

displace.ment of many syrians that would be helpful in the country now. i met with and interviewed members of the syrian army. over the years we've seen al- qaeda operatives operating in syria. today a group formed out of a i former al qaeda affiliate led by a revolutionary with a continue million dollars bounty on him and is still on the fbi website due to his role in the a terrorist organization. he is toning down his past hard line rhetoric and projecting a more moderate vision for syria, one that is safe for all religions, including minorities. syria has a long diverse

religious history and relatively secular society. will religious minorities finally feel safe in this new syria? will its talented, creative, and educated population be allowed to build, thrive, and live freely and equally and will outside actors who on regularly meddle in syria like turkey, iran, israel, russia, and, yes, the united states allow it to live freely? these are all concerning questions that the syrian people are finally free to ask and work towards answering. joining me to discuss this and more, former diplomat, ceo of engage and a syrian american and summer ali who served as a white house fellow in the obama administration at the outset of the syrian revolution, now a professor at vanderbilt university. great to have you both with us. summer, i want your feelings as you see these images coming out of syria. you were in the white house when the syrian revolution began. what are you reflecting on 24 hours after bashar al assad was

forced out of power? >> well, thank you, ayman. it's a range of emotions. i think you captured it well saying it's a stunning chain of events the past 24 to 48 hours. i think it's been extraordinary and there's a roller coaster of emotions. we see these images including the fact i think about my late syrian grandfather who was a freedom seeker and freedom fighter going back to the 1950s. there's been over 50 years of syria being under occupation. people have felt oppressed. they have felt that brutality that you talk about. they have been living in an authorizing environment for brutality truly, so this is opening up a possibility. it's giving people this feeling of freedom, that taste of freedom, that we also here in the united states hear and talk about so much as ourselves wanting to protect and have as well. so the syrian people want what people all over the world

including here in the united states want. they want freedom. they want security. they want prosperity and they want the chance to feel tomorrow is going to be better than today and their children will get what they deserve. i think what we're feeling right now and as somebody who has a heritage that goes back to syria and who spent a lot of time in syria and out of syria and what i would say is that people are really feeling like is this a chance? is this a chance for a better tomorrow of where we can leave the darkness behind and actually invest in what we know syrian people and syria is capable of and have a syria for syria? >> i'm going to ask you about that road ahead in a moment, but i want your thoughts as well. did you ever foresee a syria without an assad leading it with an iron fist? >> yeah. i mean certainly i echo what my

good friend summer has said. i immigrated to the united states when i was a teenager and worked at the state department on the syria file in support of the syrian revolution and obviously we saw the progression of the conflict and what looked like basically a defeat for the pro democracy movement in syria, but many of us, including myself, always held out hope that freedom would arrive in syria. i didn't expect it to come in this sway or this quickly breathtaking speed that we saw just two weeks and the unraveling of a 54-year-old regime, but we had hoped and many have worked for this, credit to the syrians themselves, to the people who basically took matters into their hands. they did not wait for a foreign country to invade the country

to topple their dictator. they did not wait for the world to answer their calls of over 13 years at least during the revolution. they marched and they reclaimed their dignity and their freedom and for that i think they should forever be proud. >> let me ask you, summer, about the road ahead and what happens now. obviously a lot of focus is on hts and specifically the leader of this group who i mentioned still has a bounty on his head. we were speaking to syrians earlier today. many people are celebrating. many also want to see how the next period of this transition looks like. from your vantage point, what does someone like him have to do or whoever is in charge right now in syria have to do to give a sure and to build confidence in trying to build a democratic pluralistic syria? >> i think there are a lot of uncertainties here, of course. that's what the period of transition means as well as why

it is a transition. just before when i was listening your colleagues were talking about the united states still having a peaceful transition and what i'm hearing that the syrian people want as well is a peaceful transition in syria, too. so i think there are -- you said also confidence, but i'd add another word, too, and that's trust. how are they going to build trust with each other and maintain that trust during this transition period and beyond? so what i would say is there's going to be a series of tests and their first test was just last night even with how assad left the country and the statement from the rebel group themselves of how they actually said they want a peaceful co- existence in syria, unity for syria. they want to put the dark days behind and invest in brighter days ahead. i think that's very promising and a different tone and different message than we even heard last decade. you mentioned that i was in the white house when the arab

spring happens and the revolution started in syria in 2011, march. i remember it very well. the rebel groups were in a very different place than they were now had. they are people themselves. they have been evolving. i think they're looking to invest in institutions, to see how there could be a constitution that follows the rule of law that is for syria by syrians. i think there's also a lot of cautionary tales i would mention in thinking about that transition. i think we should look at what happened in egypt, in libya and also what happened in iraq and take lessons from that because i don't think those were exemplary transitions that led to what the people initially who were coming into the streets wanted and risked their lives for were hoping to see. so this could be a new dawn, a really new awakening, but i'll just say again, it is going to be a series of tests and that they have to pass.

people will be skeptical and have questions. let's keep the focus on the people and what they want and what their dreams are and how those can be realized because even if the new leadership doesn't realize that, that doesn't mean we should just completely squash their dreams and think it's not possible. there can be new leaders that emerge, but let's give space for that and i'll add this one point on the united states front. let's invest in this in a way not where we're meddling, but we're actually investing in partners that want to see a better tomorrow. >> yes. you led me to the question i was going to ask as somebody who did work on the syria file at the state department, what does that look like? what does the international community need to do now? it's not going to be easy for the u.s. to financially support a state in which a big component is designate haded as a foreign terrorist organization? >> one of the first things the administration needs to do is make a decision quickly on what criteria it needs to see for that designation to be modified

or removed. obviously setting certain criteria that needs to be met. you need to have accountability here. the rhetoric, while it has been quite impressive, their pledging to protect minority groups, the kurdish groups, even sending letters to the jordanians, the iraqis pledging to basically co-exist in peace with them, but you need to verify, right? but i think the biden administration is still in office and obviously we have an incoming trump one. they need to decide on what is the criteria for adjusting that designation to create space on the ground for humanitarian assistance to arrive, also stabilization funding, development funding, homes, roads, schools, hospitals. there's a dire, dire need of a country of 22 million, but not only that. over 6 million refugees right now are looking at what's

happening in syria. they are in lebanon, jordan, turkey and europe and they're here in the united states and they're asking themselves is it safe to return? you're seeing some incredible videos and pictures of many are returning. so there's an opportunity here even to lessen the burden that some might say on neighboring countries by looking at how do we send more assistance on the ground and on the political and diplomatic track, the united states and the allies and our neighbors and partners and including countries that may have landed on different sides of the conflict need to come together now, invest in a political process that facilitates the formation of a credible body that is going to govern syria during this transition period. so on the diplomatic track, on the political track, on the assistance track the international community has a big, big role, but the opportunities, it's not just the risk. syrians are very entrepreneurial, as many of our viewers know. they like to fix their own

problems and invest in their country. >> they're a proud people who never wanted to leave their country in the first place. >> correct. >> and want to help rebuild their country. i certainly hope they're given the chance to do that. thank you to the both of you, greatly appreciate it. we'll have more on tonight's breaking news with ben rhodes who served as deputy national security adviser to president obama after a quick break.

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just before the fall of bashar al assad's regime in syria, president-elect donald trump suggested that the united states should not intervene in the rebel takeover of damascus writing on his failed social media site, "this is not our fight. let it play out. do not get involved." his take is no surprise, of course, but as the united states and international community respond to the overthrowing of assad, it's worth remembering past u.s. foreign policy on syria such as

that of former president barack obama red line in syria crossed by assad without consequence. joining me now is ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser during the obama administration during the arab spring of 2011. ben is a cnn political contributor and author of "after the fall in the world we've made." it's good to have you on the show after such a historic 24 hours. let me get your thoughts on this specific moment in syria. how does the overthrow of at sad regime compare to what we have seen since 2011, the overthrow of other arab dictators? >> i mean like everybody else, i may have continued to believe someday assad would fall, but it took me by surprise how fast this happened and my reaction in watching this is to just reflect on the last 13 years and all the people whose lives were up ended, transformed, all the losses people had in this war, but at the same time when the arab spring happened and it

didn't succeed, one thing i've always thought is well, it didn't necessarily end either. the grievances people had against leaders like bashar al assad did not go away with the end of the obama administration and i think what is so powerful about what happened the last ten days is it was syrians themselves. it was not a foreign military intervention. it wasn't a geopolitical chess game. it was the syrian people and syrian opposition's capacity to unify and seize this opportunity. it was a reminder that even when it looks like the political winds globally are blowing the direction of autocracy, when people get an opening, they choose something different. >> let me ask you just about that capacity. everyone is surprised by the timing of this. on the one hand, it's kind of obvious with what has happened in iran and hezbollah being decapitated and weakened, but the battlefield assessment the rebels made this is an opportune time for them seems remarkably advanced even by

their on standards. are you at all surprised that they took the decision to launch this offensive? do you think they made that decision on their own or were they perhaps prompted by foreign countries who may not even be aligned with them but share their interests? >> it's probably a mix of all of the above given this region. i think the reality is the geopolitical winds did create an opportunity for them. russia is bogged down in ukraine. hezbollah has suffered huge losses, but let's not lose sight of the fact clearly the syrian opposition made use of the last few years. at the same time the assad regime was enriching itself and presiding over this house of cards, they were planning for a window when it presented himself. so yes, clearly what's happening in the region and globally created some opportunity for them, but they had planned to seize this moment and they certainly did. turkey may have been supportive of some of these groups and other countries in the region have ties to these groups, but

that's always been the case. what's different now is clearly this is a more sophisticated, more unified opposition even than when i was in office. that's a credit to the planning they did. >> based on your expertise and experience in government, if you had to advise the trump administration what to do next or what should the u.s. be doing next as it tries to cultivate a syria that is democratic, pluralistic, at peace? >> this has to be a syrian-led process. if anything we've learned the last 13 years is people in washington, including myself, don't know more sitting in rooms in washington about what's going on in syrian politics than syrians. we should support their transition. we should provide them with badly needed assistance to address immediate humanitarian needs and to begin to rebuild the country. we should be supporting them. the gulf arabs have a lot of resources and the u.n. has

expertise to put into. that you'd want to put up a process that is supportive to a transition to a governing body and then some set of future institutions that protect minority rights. i think it's appropriate to go after i.s.i.s. to make sure an extremist group can't take advantage of a vacuum and trying to facilitate the return of perhaps millions of refugees and donald trump has said he'd like to not do anything, but i'd like to see the u.s. help those who suffered so much and clearly hds has done a lot to not just rebrand itself, but to earn trust of these other factions. the fact that these other factions were willing to cooperate in many manner shows me this is not the nassir front. we have to allow people to

evolve. >> ben, thank you so much. good to see you. >> thanks. next up, i'll speak to julian assange's brother about the push for president biden to issue a pardon before leaving office. eggs make all our family moments better. especially when they're eggland's best. taste so fresh and amazing. deliciously superior nutrition, too. for us, it's eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best. surprise! there's still time to save! wayfair's cyber week sale is back for an encore!e best.

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when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd... i noticed things changed. breztri gave me better breathing starting within 5 minutes. it also reduced flare-ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler... for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed.

breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling ...problems urinating vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. one week after joe biden flip-flopped and decided to pardon his son hunter everyone has presidential pardons on their christmas wish lists now. nbc news reports biden is weighing preemptive reports on president-elect donald trump's enemy list. what everyone thinks of the prudence of presearch active preemptive pardon, native american activist leonard

pelletier who has long maintained his innocence has some powerful advocates calling on biden to grant him clemency. criminal justice advocates are pointing out biden currently has the lowest presidential pardon record of any president of modern history and are asking to are clemency for people who are subject to unjustly aggressive prosecutions, but when the constant attacks on press freedom from the incoming in administration, the rights of journalists and whistleblowers are clearly under threat. congressman thomas massie of kentucky, republican, and james mcgovern of massachusetts, a democrat, have teamed up to urge president biden to pardon wikileaks founder julien assange. joining us now is gabriel shipton, brother of julian assange. good to have you back on the show. are you surprised that the biden administration decided to

make the plea deal initially as vice president biden referred to julien as a hi-tech terrorist? >> yeah. well, that was a very long time ago. that was back in 2010. this was always a trump administration prosecution and during the biden administration when the publisher of "the new york times," for example, wrote to the president asking him to drop the charges against julian, the rhetoric coming from the administration was always we cannot interfere in an ongoing doj process. it was always going back to that separation of powers. so they never really pushed that hard this prosecution. it sort of played itself out ending up where julien returned home to australia. now that that doj process is over it is an opportunity for the president, for the biden administration, to acknowledge those calls from people like

the publisher of "the new york times" as well as press freedom groups all around the united states, over 26 who have written to the biden administration multiple times calling on him to drop this prosecution because of the threat that it meant to publishers. so now it's the president's chance to really stand up for the rhetoric he's used before saying journalism is not a crime and unwind this horrible prosecutorial pathway that could potentially be used against journalists who are publishing classified information in the future. >> let me ask you if you are surprised that donald trump didn't pardon him during his first term. many critics of both trump and wikileaks blame the clinton email leaks for her loss in 2016 and figured trump may want to return the favor. were you surprised at the position donald trump took or do you have any optimism when he becomes president, he may

pardon him? >> there are some new elements in this trump 2 administration that i think have been calling for a pardon for julian assange such as rfk jr. he made it part of his campaign during the presidential run to call for a pardon for julian. i think really now it's up to the president. there's that ticking clock and he has that opportunity now to wind back this horrible plea deal julian was made to plead guilty of that criminalizes every step of the investigative journalism pathway, communicating with a source, publishing classified information, possessing classified information. it's the bread and butter of investigative journalists been made illegal through this deal. let's not forget it did emanate from the trump administration. he had an opportunity to pardon julian.

he didn't do it. now i think it's up to president biden. >> what's the case you would make to the american public as to why the plea deal is so dangerous and the only way to correct it is through a presidential pardon by biden? >> well, this sets up the precedent that journalists can be investigated for doing their job, for bringing information to the public, bringing classified government secrets to the public, which is what journalists are supposed to do. they're supposed to tell us about the truth about what governments are doing in our name can be investigated and can be prosecuted under this precedent. so i think journalism is such an important pillar of all our democracy, particularly the american democracy, that it can't be under threat like this. when we're going to an administration that people don't really know what's going to happen, i think journalism

is more important than ever to really holding government to account. >> gabriel shipton, thank you so much for your time. please update us if there are any new developments and certainly hope that the president does make that pardon. next up, coming up, takeaways from the historic transgender care case just argued before the supreme court, a case that could impact all of us. we'll tell you why. my favorite babysitter is annalisa. she's pretty good, she's like my grandma. she says “hola cómo estás” and then we go skateboarding! from babysitters, to nannies, to daycare centers. find all the care you need at care.com my name is brayden. i was five years old when i came to st. jude.

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good reason for doing so. tennessee did not meet their burden. >> that was ucla attorney chase stragio speaking outside the supreme court during oral arguments this past week when he became the first openly transgender person to argue before the court in a landmark trans rights case. he presented arguments on behalf of three transgender adolescents and their parents in the challenge to tennessee's law banning gender-affirming care for trans minors and argued tennessee's ban is a form of sex discrimination and violates the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. the supreme court seemed skeptical and appeared to lean towards upholding the ban. if they do, it could have devastating consequences for trans rights as we've seen on a growing number of antitrans bills introduced in years across the country and a record high nearly 700 this year alone. about half of all states have some sort of ban on gender- affirming care for trans youth and we know maga republicans

want to go even further. to be clear, this case is not solely about trans people. it is about all of us and our right to equal protection under the law. at stake is everyone's freedom to reject gender stereotypes without fear of state oppression. joining me now, mark joseph stern, senior writer at slate and amare jones. explain to us the specifics of this case, why it matters to the broader public. >> because it asking a very simple straightforward question, whether or not trans people are covered by the equal protection clause like a whole host of our americans, a bedrock principle of equality in america, and it specifically asked whether or not gender- affirming care for minors that is seen as necessary both by

their parents and medical professionals is indeed covered by that and allowed for those parents and for those decisionmakers around the health of the child to move forward with that particular care. the essential question is whether or not if you are trans and you're discriminated against as the law calls for discrimination in order to force those children to adhere to gender roles that the state says that it has an interest in enforcing, if the denial of that care is essentially sex discrimination covered by the equal protection clause. so those are the big constitutional questions at heart in this case. >> mark, you wrote about this case and how "the court could shred the constitutional presumption against sex discrimination and replace it with a rubber stamp for states that want to impose their own prejudiced conception of gender roles by force." expand on that point that imare was making and that you are

writing about. >> yeah, absolutely. this is a law that on its face targets children because of their sex. a cisgender boy who goes to the doctor and wants testosterone to develop secondary sex characteristics can get it. a transgender boy who wants the exact same treatment for the exact same reason, he cannot. the only difference is the sex assigned to that child at birth and under more than 50 years of supreme court precedent this is an open and shut case of sex discrimination which triggers something called heightened scrutiny and means that courts are required to ask whether there is an exceedingly persuasive justification for this differential treatment which here i think the many medical professionals and associations who weighed in have made it clear there's not a good reason for this ban. this is based on bigotry and stereotypes, but the problem here is to get around this constitutional bar the state of tennessee and its allies are trying to carve out an exception to this rule against

gender discrimination and sex stereotyping to say that we're applying this law equally. boys can't transition. girls can't transition. so everybody's discriminated against in an equal way and we're not violating the constitution. that is i think really underhanded word play and if you apply that across the board, it would allow states to engage in all kinds of nvidia sex stereotyping by essentially telling both sexes you have to behave a certain way. men have to be masculine. women have to be feminine because that's the stereotype we assign to them and enforce that through legislation, really defanging all this precedent that guards against this kind of mandatory gender conformity. so the stakes in this case couldn't be higher. of course, it's so important for transgender people, but it's also critical for everyone who wants the government to not have to force us to comport with a certain vision of gender. >> you've said there might be

room for cautious optimism that the court may not uphold the lower court's opinion on this been. how could you see the conservative super majority ruling in this case and what kind of precedents will they be forced to consider? >> so look, i'm not super optimistic. i think we know this is a conservative super majority that's generally pretty hostile to lgbtq people and progressive goals. i think there is a slim chance that a handful of the conservative justices could at least acknowledge that this is sex discrimination and send the case back down to the lower court to apply that heightened scrutiny standard. what the lower court did here was pretty extraordinary. it basically said that again, because all children are discriminated against equally that this is just subject to really deferential review and that the legislature gets a rubber stamp because it engaged in this kind of be obfukcation to get around the protection

clause. what it was asked to do is say this is sex discrimination. the lower court got that wrong and send it back down for further analysis leaving the bigger question of whether these laws pass constitutional muster for another day. >> imare, this case is coming at a time when trans rights are coming under attack. we saw in the elections the republicans, specifically trump spending hundreds of millions of dollars on antitransads, 700 or so different pieces of legislation considered anti trans making their way through state legislatures. what is your message to people watching what is happening across the country? >> i think there's been real damage done by nearly a quarter of a billion dollars of antitrans ads dropped in the last three weeks of the campaign which has definitely shifted the atmosphere around this particular issue of trans

equality in the country. we even heard that in the oral arguments. we heard essentially anti trans pseudoscience be parented by a series of justices as a potential justification for upholding the ruling by the 6th circuit. that's how effective the messaging has been around trans issues and that's not surprising when you have a population that's 1% of the population of the united states where most people say they don't know a trans person. it's really easy to stereotype, twist and demonize this issue so effectively you have a lot of those things said from the bench of the highest court in the land. i think everyone knows there's a long way to go and i think people are remaining as hopeful as possible but understanding there's a long way to go here. >> indeed. thank you to the both of you. we'll keep our eyes on this

story when that ruling and decision comes down. thank you. next up, trump's plans for birthright citizenship in a new exclusive interview with nbc. stay with us. we call... cozé. transform your everyday with new downy comfy cozy. it not only combines softness and scent. it breathes life into your laundry. where ya headed? susan: where am i headed? am i just gonna take what the markets gives me? no. i can do some research. ya know, that's backed by j.p. morgan's leading strategists like us. when you want to invest with more confidence... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management

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you promised to end birthright citizenship on day one. is that still your plan? >> yeah, absolutely. >> the 14th amendment says that, "all persons born in the united states are citizens." can you get around the 14th

amendment with an executive action? >> we'll maybe have to go back to the people, but we have to end it. we're the only country that has it. >> through an executive action. >> you know, we're the only country that has it. you know, if somebody sets one foot -- you don't need two -- on our land, congratulations, you are now a citizen of the united states of america. yes, we're going to end that because it's ridiculous. >> through executive action? >> well, if we can through executive action. i was going to do it through executive action, but then we had to fix covid first, to be honest with you. we have to end it. >> that was donald trump today on "meet the press" since he entered politics being consistent on his views on deportation and especially in regards to birthright citizenship. he used the term anchor babies. these children are citizens because they're born in the united states regardless of their parents' citizenship status. that's in the constitution, but trump insists they are not

really american citizens and that as president, he'd find a way to make sure of that. with me now deputy director of the aclu's immigrants right project. great to have you on the show. trump has promised to end birthright citizenship on day one and said he wants to do it with executive order. right now he probably would not be able too get the constitutional amendment needed for him to do that. can he actually do this as quickly as he claims with executive order? >> no. we think it would be patently illegal and there will be legal challenges across the country. the supreme court has said more than a century ago that if you're born on u.s. soil, you're a citizen pursuant to the 14th amendment. so i think that it's not legal. we hope the courts will adhere to that precedent. so we'll have to see, but it sounds like he's going to try and we're ready for that.

>> how do you see this playing out in court if he does attempt it? >> i hope the lower court will say there's supreme court precedent and if he tries to take it to the supreme court, i think it's wrong to assume they will lightly discard a century of precedent and the plain text of the 14th amendment, but as you say, this is part of a larger plan to have mass deportations. one of the things that we'll be doing is going to court on multiple different issues where there's profiling, where there's illegal use of the military, where the people are denied any process whatsoever, but i also think there's a role for the public to play where they see inhumane policies. even if they're not technically illegal, i think the public can push back to say wait, we don't want these policies. when you ask in the abstract in

a vague way do you want mass deportations, a lot of people say yes, but when they see it in practice what that actually means, it's a different story. remember in the first term he had family separation. when people saw little babies being ripped apart from their parents, they said that's not what we meant by aggressive deportation. when i think they see families being pulled apart and these kind of inhumane policies that are being contemplated, i'm hopeful the public will push back and say whether or not it's legal, we don't want this. that's not what we meant by immigration reform. >> there is the public component of what americans might do if they see those images again, but there's also been some substantial criticism of how democrats have handled immigration in recent years. what should lawmakers on the other side of the aisle be doing to prepare for trump's possible legal maneuvers to end birthright citizenship? do you think democrats have a

fight in challenging trump? >> i don't know how it will play out in congress. i hope the democratic senators and as well as in the house will push back and say we're okay with immigration reform and the aclu is okay with immigration reform. let's not drastically change the character of our nation by all of a sudden saying that we're going to look at who your parents are to determine whether you're citizens and get away from that or have the military in the streets or any one of a number of things that he's contemplating. so they don't have the majority, but i hope they can push back and convince some people across the aisle let's not fundamentally change the character of the united states. >> there have been some judges, including james a prominent 5th circuit judge who was a former advocate for birthright citizenship but has changed course. do you see that happening with

other judges? is the legal scholarship or justification for the 14th amendment changing? >> well, i think some people are putting forth this notion which we think is flatly incorrect that there is now an invasion and all of a sudden you can declare all these immigrants enemies to the point of invoking the alien enemies act, which was a measure that's supposed to only be used during war or threatened war. i don't know how many people hold that view. i'm hopeful when it plays out in court, that kind of view will not take hold. i think it's absolutely wrong both as a legal matter and factually to suggest that we're being invaded by another country now. >> deputy director of the aclu's immigrants rights project lee gelernt, great to see you again, appreciate your time. thank you for making time for us. make sure to catch ayman each saturday and sunday at 7:00 p.m. eastern. you can find us on blue sky and instagram and you can listen to the podcast.

scan the qr code on your screen to listen on the go wherever you get your podcasts and subscribe to msnbc premium on apple podcasts. until we meet again, i'm ayman mohyeldin in new york. have a good night! philip: when your kid is hurting and there's nothing you can do about it, that's the worst feeling in the world. kristen: i don't think anybody ever expects to hear that their child has cancer.

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