that does it for me today, but we're already working. pereira was fired by trump during his first administration. sure he has some thoughts. can't wait to share them with me. there's much more news coming up on msnbc.

after more than half a century of rule and 13 years after the launch of the arab spring. the family is no longer ruling syria. this with as rebel forces stormed the palace in demascus. he has fled to moscow the country that has been helping prop up his dictatorship. what was once unthinkable has finally happened. is a soft spoken man and a trained ophthalmologist who studied in london. that soft spokenness bellied his sadistic violence to wipe out his opposition. instill fear and maintain his hold on power. it's a strategy he learned from

his late father who held a massacre in hema. a designing moment in the history of saudi eastern autocrats. that history helps explain the joy, tears and excitement that we are now seeing in the streets of syria and in the syria particularly this last decade that hung on to power saw brutal violence and world powers and regional actors using a weakened syria as a violent playground in a power struggle. this has all led to a brain drain and in rebuilding the country right now. the other major concern is who are these rebels.

when i covered the arab spring and the uprising in syria more than a decade ago i met with and interviewed the free syrian army. over the years we've seen groups related to isis and al- qaida operating throughout syria. formed out of a former al-qaida affiliate. it is led by a commander named abu hamed. while he is now a celebrated revolutionary this $10 million bounty on him is still on the fbi website due to his role on the assad front. he has known ties to both isis and al-qaida. is now toning down his hard rhetoric and projecting a more moderate vision for syria. one that is safe for all religions including minorities. syria has a long diverse religious history and relatively secular society. will religious minorities

finally feel safe in this new syria? will its talented, creative population be allowed to live freely. and others who dabble in syria allow it to live freely. these are all concerning questions that the syrian people are now finally free to ask and work toward answer. joining me to discuss this former diplomat sayet ceo of engage. and now professor at vanderbilt university. it's great to have both of you with us. i want to start with you, i want to get your feelings as you see these images coming out of syria. you were in the white house when the syrian revolution began. what are your thoughts. what are you reflecting on 24 hours after assad was pushed out of power. >> it's a range of emotions and

i think you captured it well when you said it was stunning for the 24 to 48 hours. i think it's been extraordinary. there's a roler coaster of emotions where we see these images including the fact that i think about my late syrian grandfather who was a freedom seeker and a freedom fighter for decades going back to the 17950s -- 1950s. people have felt oppressed. they have felt that brutality you talked about. they have been living in an authorizing environment for brutality truly. this is opening up a possibility, it's giving people this feeling, that taste of freedom that we also here in the united states hear and talk about so much of ourselves wanting to protect. the syrian people want what people all over the world including right here in the united states want. they want freedom. they want security.

they want prosperity and they want the chance to experience and deserve. someone who has spent a lot of time in syria and out of syria. and i would, what i would say is that people are really feeling like is this a chance? is this a chance for a better tomorrow of where we can leave the darkness behind and actually invest in what we know syrian people and syria is capable of. and have a syria for syria. >> i'm going to ask you about that road ahead in just a moment. but what i want to get your thoughts is wow, did you ever forsee a syria without an assad leading it with an iron fist? >> yeah, i mean certainly, i will go with my good friend summer has said. did we think we would get to see this in our lifetimes, i'm syrian-american. we immigrated to the united states when i was a teenager

and ended up working at the state department on the syria file in support of the syrian revolution. and obviously we saw the progression of the conflict and what looked like many of us including myself held the hope that freedom would arrive in syria. i didn't expect it to come in this way or this quickly. a breathtaking speed that we saw just two weeks and the unraveling of a 54 year old regime. but we had hoped and many have worked for this credit to the people who took matters into their hands. they did not wait for a foreign country to invade the country, to topple their dictator. they did not wait for the world

to answer their calls of over 13 years at least during the revolution. they marched and reclaimed their dignity and their freedom and for that i think, they should forever be proud. >> let me ask you summer about the road ahead and what happens now. we were speaking to syrians earlier tonight. many people are celebrating but many people also want to see how the next period of this transition looks like. from your area of expertise from your vantage point, what does someone like him have to do to build assurance, to try to build a syria. >> there's a lot of uncertains and that's the period of a

peaceful transition means. what the syrian people want is a peaceful transition in syria too. i think there are, you said also the confidence. i will add another word too and that's trust. how is he going and how are they going to build trust with each other and how are they going to maintain that trust during this transition period and beyond. and so, what i would say is there's going to be a series of tests and their first test was actually just lasting night. everyone with how assad left the country and the statement from the rebel groups themselves -ps , of how they said they want a peaceful transition in syria. unity for syria. they want to put the dark days behind and they want to invest in brighter days ahead. i think that's very promising and i think that's a different tone and a different message than we even heard last decade. you mentioned i was in the white house when the arab spring happened in march of

2011. i remember it very well. the they're a rebel group. they're looking for to do is constitutions to look at how they can see if there's a constitution for syrians by syrians. i think there's something in thinking about that transition. we should look at what happened in egypt. i think we should see what happened in libya what happened in iraq and take lessons from that. because i don't think those were exemplary transitions that led to what the people initially who were coming into the streets wanting, and risking their lives for were hoping to see. so this could be a new dawn. this could be a really a new awakening but it is, i will say again, it is going to be a series of tests. and that they have to, that they have to pass. and people are going to be skeptical and they're going to have questions. i will just say one other thing.

let's keep the focus on the people as well. and for what they want and what their dreams are. and how those can be realized because even if the new leadership doesn't realize that doesn't mean that we should just completely, squash their dreams and think it's not possible. there can be new leaders that also emerge. but let's get that space for that. and also, i just add this one too on the united states front. let's invest in this in a way not that we're meddling but actually investing in partners that want to see a better tomorrow. >> you led me to the question that i was going to asked as someone who worked on the file. what does that look like? what does international community have to do now. it's not going to be easy for the united states to support a state in which a big component of it is designated as a foreign terrorist organization. >> one of the first things the administration needs to do is make a decision very quickly on what is criteria and needs to see for that designation to be modified or removed. and obviously, setting certain

criteria for hey, jolani that they need to meet right. they need to have accountability here. even sending letters to countries like iraqi. basically to coexist in peace with them but you need to verify. but i think the biden administration is still in office. obviously we have an incoming trump one. they need to decide on what is a criteria for humanitarian assistance to arrive. and also stabilization funding. development funding, homes, roads, the schools, hospitals. there's a dire need of a country of 22 million but not only that, over 6 million refugees right now are looking at what's happening in syria. they are in lebanon, they are in jordan. they are in turkey, they are in europe. and they're here in the united

states. and they're asking themselves is it safe to return? you're seeing some incredible videos and pictures of many are returning. so there's an opportunity here even to lessen the burden on neighboring countries by looking at how we send assistance on the ground. the united states and the allies and our neighbors and partners and including countries that may have landed on different sides of the conflict need to come together right now. invest on a political process that facilitates the formation of a credible body that is going to govern syria. on the political track, on the assistance track, the international community has a big big role. the opportunities, it's not just the risks. syrians as many of our viewers know are very entrepreneurial, they like to fix their own problems and they like to invest in their country. >> they're a proud people. yeah they're a very proud people who never wanted to

leave their country in the first place. >> correct. >> and want to help rebuild their country. i certainly hope they're given the hope to do that. thank you to the both of you. greatly appreciate it as always. >> we're going to have more on tonight's breaking news with ben rhodes who served as the national advisor to biden after the break.

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c1 bust the fall of assad in syria, former president trump said the united states should not intervene adding this is not our fight. let it play out. do not get involved. his take is not a surprise. but as the world weighs in.

joining me now, is ben rhodes former advisor to the obama administration. ben is now the author of after the fall. being american in the world we've made. ben it's good to have you on the show on such a historic 24 hours. but let me get your thoughts on this specific moment in syria. how does the overthrow of the regime compare to what we've seen in 2011, the over throw of other arab dictators. >> like everybody else, i may have once or i may have continued to believe that some day assad would fall but it took me by surprise how fast this happened and you know my reaction in watching this is just to reflect on the last 13 years and all the people who's lives were up ended, transformed, all the losses people had. in this war. but at the same time. when the arab spring happened and it didn't succeed one thing i've always had is it didn't really end either.

the grievances that they had did not go away in 2014, 2015 or the obama administration. i think what is so powerful about what happened the last 10 days is it was syrians themselves. it was on a foreign intervention. it wasn't a geo political game. it was the syrian people and the syrian oppositions capacity to unify in this manner. to seize this afternoon and it was a reminder that even when it looks like the political wins are blowing toward autocracy. when people get an opening they choose something different. >> let me ask you really quickly about that capacity. everyone is surprised by the timing of this. on one hand it's obvious with what hand is happening with iran and hezbollah being weakened. the assessment the rebels made this is an opportune time for them seems advance even by their standards. are you at all surprised they took the decision to launch this offensive? do you think they made this

decision on their own or were they perhaps prompted. >> i think the geo political wins did create an opportunity for them. russia is bogged down and ukraine, hezbollah suffered great losses. but also, let's not lose sight of the fact that clearly the syrian opposition made use of the last four years. that at the same time the assad regime was just enriching itself and presiding over this house of cards. they were planning for a window when it presented itself. so yes, clearly, what's happening in the region. what's happening globally created some opportunity for them. they had planned to seize this moment and they certainly did. turkey may have been supportive of some of these groups and other countries in the region have ties to these groups, of course. but that's always been the case. what's different now is clearly, this is a more sophisticated. more unified opposition than it was even when i was in office.

that's a credit to the planning that they did. so they could seize this moment. >> based on your, expertise here experience in government, if you had to advise the trump administration what to do next or what should the u.s. be doing next, as it tries to cultivate a syria that is diplomatic at peace. >> if anything that we learned the last 13 years people in washington, including myself, don't know more sitting in rooms in washington about what's going on in syrian politics than syrians themselves. we should be supporting their transition. we should be providing them with badly needed assistance to address the humanitarian needs and to help rebuild the country. we should be supporting them with the gulf arabs have a lot to put into that. the u.n. has a lot of expertise to put into that. you would be able to want to set up a process that is supportive of a transition to a

governing body and set of institutions that protect humanitarian rights. and then of course, trying to facilitate the return of perhaps millions of refugees that may want to go back to syria. look it's probably best if you not meddle in certain politics but i would like to see, the u.s. lean in here to be supportive of syrians who have suffered so much. and frankly i think they need to be looking at this designation. clearly, hds has done a lot to not just rebrand itself but to earn the trust of these other factions. the fact these other factions were willing to cooperate in this manner, shows me this is not the front, the previous iteration of this. there was a more brutal outfit that did not have good relations at the other factions. we have to account to that. we have to allow for people to evolve. >> ben rhodes, ben thank you for your time and insights. as always, great to see you.

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one week after joe biden flip-flopped and decided to pardon his son hunter, now everybody has pardons on their christmas wish lists. what everyone thinks about the prudence of preemptive pardons and the slippery slope that might cause, there are some people who biden should strongly consider using his special power for. native american activist leonard peltier who has been in prison for 50 years and has long called his innocence in the death of two fbi agents.

and bryan shots of hawaii . criminal justice says biden has the lowest presidential pardon record of any president in modern history and are asking for clemency of people. but the rights of journalists and whistle blowers are clearly under threat with the in coming administers. . the brother of julian assange is joining us. before we get to a push of a pardon for your brother. president biden referred to him to julian of course as a high tech terrorist. >> yeah, well, that was very a

long time ago. that was back in 2010. so, but, this is a trump, always a trump administration prosecution. and during the biden administration, when the publisher for example wrote, wrote to the president asking him to drop the charges, against julian, the rhetoric coming from the administration was we cannot interfere with the doj process. it was back to the power. they didn't push hard the prosecution. now that that doj process is over, it is an opportunity for the president, for the biden administration to acknowledge those calls from people like the publisher of the new york times as well as for his freedom groups all around the united states. over 20 have written to the

biden administers multiple times calling on him to drop his prosecution because of the threat it meant for publishers. now it's the president's chance to speak up that journalism is not a crime and unwind this horrible prosecutorial that could be used against journalists. >> let me ask you if you were surprised if donald trump didn't pardon him during his first term. many blame the clinton leaks. and fear that trump may want to return the favor. were you surprised at the position that trump took? >> there are some new elements in this trump two administration that have been

calling for pardons for julian assange. such during presidential runs to pardon for julian. but really now it's up to the president. it's a ticking clock and it's pardon season in the united states, in your country. and he has that opportunity now to wind back, really wind back this horrible deal. this horrible plea deal that julian was made completely guilty of. communicating, publishing classified information. possessing classified information. it's the bread and butter of journalists that have made illegal through this deal. it was, let's not forget, it did imminent from the trump administration. he had a chance to pardon julian, he didn't. now it's up to president biden. >> this plea deal sets, what's the case you would make to the american public as to why the

plea deal is so dangerous and the only way to correct it is through a presidential pardon by biden. >> well this sets up the precedent that journalists that can be investigated for doing their jobs. for bringing information to the public. bringing classified government secrets to the public which is, what journalists are supposed to do. they're supposed to go put out the truth about what governments are doing in our name. can be investigated and can be prosecuted. under this president. so, i think journalism is such an important pillar of all the democracy. specifically the american democracy that it can't be under threat like this. when we're going to, administration that people don't really know what's going to happen. i think journalism is more important than ever to really holding government to account. >> all right, gabriel, thank

you so much for your time. we will continue to follow this story and please update us as always if there are any new developments and certainly hope the president does make that pardon. next up, coming up. take aways from the historic transgender case just argued before the supreme court. a case that could impact all of us. we'll tell you why. anywhere. chew on relief, chew on a ♪ robitussin ♪

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constitution protects transpeople just like it protects everyone else. it is breaking no new ground to recognize that when you are prohibited from receiving something because of your sex, that it is the role of the courts to ensure that the government can satisfy its burden of showing it has a good reason for doing so. tennessee did not meet their burden. >> that was aclu attorney chase strangeo speaking outside the supreme court after oral arguments when he became the first openly transgender person to argue before the court. in a landmark transcase. strangeo presented cases in three transgender minors and their parents. he argues that tennessee's ban violates the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment. the supreme court seemed skeptical and appeared to lean toward upholding the ban.

if they do it could have devastating consequences for transrights as we've seen on a number of transbills introduced across the country in recent years and a record high of nearly 700 this year alone. about half of all states have some sort of ban on gender affirming care for transyouth. and we know maga republicans want to go even further. to be clear this case is not just solely about transpeople but all of us. at stake is everyone's freedom to reject gender stereo types without fear of state oppression. joining me now mark joseph sterns, senior writer at slate. and emma jones of transline media. it's great to have both of you with us. walk us through this case. why was it so significant. walk us why it matters to the broader public. >> because it asks a simple and straightforward question, whether or not transpeople are

covered by the equal protection clause of the united states. just like a whole host of other americans. a bedrock principle of equality in america. it specifically asked whether or not gender affirming care for minors that is seen as necessary both by their parents and their medical professionals, is indeed covered by that and allowed for those parents and for those decision makers around the health of the child to move forward with that particular care. and, the essential question is whether or not if you are trans, is that and you're discriminated against as the law calls for discrimination. in order to force those children to adhere to gender roles that the state says that it has an interest in enforcing. the denial of that care is sexual discrimination covered

by law. >> you wrote about this case and how the court could place it with a rubber stamp for states that want to impose their own prejudice conception of gender roles by force. expand on that point that amara was making and what you wrote on the law. >> this is a law that on its face targets children because of their sex. a gender boy who goes to the doctor and wants testosterone to develop secondary characteristics. a female cannot. this is an open and shut case of sex discrimination. means that courts are required to ask whether there's an

exceedingly persuasive recommendation for medical treatment. the many medical associations who have weighed in have made it clear there's not a good reason for this plan. this is based on bigotry. the problem here is to get around this constitutional bar, the state of tennessee and its allies are trying to carve out an exception to this rule against gender discrimination and sex stereo typing. to say we're applying this law equally. boys can't transition, girls can't transition. so everybody is discriminated against in an equal way and we're not violating the constitution. that is i think really under handed word play. and if you apply that across the board it would apply states to engage in all kinds of invidious sex stereo typing by telling both sexes you have to behave in a certain way. men have to be masculine, girls have to be feminine because

that's what we assign to them. it's also really critical for everyone who wants to not have to worry about the government forcing us by legislation to comport with a certain vision of gender. >> let me ask you about how you might think the court might view this. you say there might be room that the court may not uphold the ruling and what kind of precedence will they be forced to consider? >> look i'm not super optimistic. i think we know this is a conservative that is hostile to lgbt people and progressive roles. i think there is a chance a slim chance that a handful of the the conservative justices could at least acknowledge that this is sex discrimination and send the courts down to a lower court to assign that higher scrutiny standards. what the lower court did hear

was pretty standard. because all children are discriminated against equally. that this is just subject to really differential review and that the legislature has a rubber stamp. what the supreme court could do and what the aclu and what the general asked them to do is simply say this is sex discrimination. the lower court got that wrong and send it back down for further analysis. leaving the bigger question that they leave muster for another day. >> what transrights are coming under attack and what we saw in the elections, the republicans specifically trump spending hundreds of millions of dollars if not tens of millions of dollars on anti transthe ads. 700 or so pieces of legislation that are considered anti transmaking their ways through state legislators. a lot of fear out there right now in the transcommunity.

what are your message to people who are watching what's happening across the country. >> i think there's been real damage done by nearly a quarter of a million dollars of anti transads dropped in the last three weeks of the campaign. which has definitely shifted the atmosphere around this particular issue of transequality in the country. i mean we even heard that in the oral arguments. by a series for upholding the ruling by the sixth circuit. that's how effective the messaging has been around transissues. and that's not surprising when you have a population that's 1% of the population of the united states where most people say they don't know a transperson. it's really easy to stereo type, to twist and to demonize this issue. so effectively that you have it from the bench a lot of those

things said from the bench of the highest court in the land. so, i think everybody knows there's a long way to go. and i think that people are remaining as hopeful as possible but understanding there's a long way to go here. >> indeed, a long way to go. emar jones, we'll keep our eyes on this story when the ruling and decision come out. thank you. next up, trumps plans for birthrights in a new exclusive. stay with us. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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you promised to end birthright citizenship on day one. is that still your plan. >> yes, absolutely. >> but the 14th amendment says everyone were born in the united states are u.s. citizens. >> we have to end it. >> through an executive action. >> we're the only country that has it. you know, if somebody sets a foot, just a foot. one foot. you don't need to on our land congratulations you are now a citizen of the united states of america. yes, we're going to end that. because it's ridiculous. >> through executive action? >> well if we can through executive action. i was going to do it through executive action but then we had to fix covid first to be honest with you. but we have to end it. >> that's donald trump, since he entered politics he's been

insistent on his views about immigration. in his first term he kept using the term, anchor babies. trump insists they are not really american citizens and that as president he would find a way to make sure of that. with me now, deputy director of the aclus immigrants rights project lee gilert. trump has promised to end citizenship for the children of undocumented parents. he says he wants to do it with executive order. obviously right now he probably would not be able to get the constitutional amendment needed or changed for him to do that. the other legal way. can he actually do this as quickly as he claims with executive order? >> no, we think it would be patently illegal and there will be legal challenges across the country to it. the supreme court has said over a century ago if you're born on

u.s. soil you're a citizen pursuant to the 14th amendment. so i think that, it's not legal, we hope the courts will adhere to that precedent. and so we'll have to see but it sounds like he's going to try and we're ready for that. >> how do you see this playing out in court if he does attempt it? >> you know, i hope the lower courts will say to a supreme court precedent and they will strike it down. and then, we'll see whether the trump administration tries to take it all the way to the supreme court. we're clear ride about where this court has been on certain issues but i think it's wrong to assume they will lightly discard a century of precedent and the plain text of the 14th amendment. but as you say, this is part of a larger plan to have mass deportations. you know, and one of the things that we'll be doing is going to court on multiple different issues where there's profiling, where there's illegal use of the military. where the people are denied any process whatsoever. but i also think there's a role

for the public to play where they see inhumane policies. even if they're not technically illegal. i think the public can push back and say wait, we don't want these policies. when you ask, do you want mass deportations a lot of people say yes. when they see it in practice what that actually means, it's a different story. i mean remember in the first term, he had family separation. when people saw little babies being ripped apart from their parents. they said, wait that's not what we meant by aggressive deportations. when i think they see families being pulled apart and these kind of inhuman policies that are being contemplated. i'm hopeful the public will say, push back whether or not it's lisle. - legal. >> that's the component of what americans might do if they see those images again.

but there's substantial criticism of how have handled immigration. what should lawmakers prepare to end birthright citizenship. do you think democrats have a fighting chance at challenging trump? >> yes, i think, i don't know exactly how it will play out in congress. i hope the democratic senators as well as democrats in the house will be pushing back and saying wait, you know, we're okay with immigration reform. and the aclu was okay with immigration reform but let's not drastically change the character of our nation by all of a sudden saying, that we're going to look at who your parents are to determine whether or not you're citizens and get away from that and have the military in the streets or any one of a number of things he's contemplating. they don't have the majorities but i hope they can push back and convince some people across the aisle. let's not fundamentally change the character of the united

states. >> there have been some judges including judge cho who has changed course. do you see that trend happening among other judges. is the legal scholarship or the you know justification for the 14th amendment changing? >> well, i think that some people are putting forth this notion which we think is flatly incorrect. that there's now an envision and all of a sudden you can declare all these immigrants enemies. you know and to the point of invoking the enemy aliens act that was supposed to be used only during war or in threat of war. i don't know how many people hold that view. i hope this one actually plays out in court that kind of view will not take hold. i think it's absolutely wrong both as a legal matter and factually to suggest that we're being invaded by another country now. >> all right, deputy director of the aclu immigrants rights project lee. great to see you again on the show. really appreciate your time

this evening. >> thanks for having me. >> thank you for making time for us. make sure to catch us at 7:00 p.m. eastern. you can find us on blue sky. and you can listen to the show as a podcast just scan the qr code on your screen to listen on the go wherever you get your podcast. and for ad free listening, subscribe to msnbc premium on apple podcasts. until we meet again, have a good night. until we meet again, have a good night. ♪ (vo) whether your phone's broken or old, we've got you. with verizon, trade in any phone, any condition. and for a limited time, get iphone 16 pro with apple intelligence. get four, on us. on any unlimited plan. only on verizon. still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief with rinvoq. check.

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