where you had an employee at a mcdonald's, went to work like any other day in altoona, pennsylvania, and sees someone he thinks, you know, that looks like maybe the guy i saw on television. talk about what we just heard. >> i think the biggest thing is when you lose someone initially out of that tight ring that they're trying to catch him in, then you're going back to the public. you're putting his picture out i think it's really important that they got the picture from the hostel that showed his entire face because it's really tough when you just see someone's eyes and a mask putting that together with someone. i kept saying, you know, it's going to lead to someone just making a phone call and says, this person looks familiar and the police being in a position to act on it. and then once he pulled out a fake i.d. and they brought him in, i'm sure they did then this searchrs the safety search. if you're going to bring someone into your car you're going to search him and that's when they found the gun. the gun leads to everything else and then they -- don't know if

they talked to him at all, but then the, you know, manifesto is in there. the, you know, manifes in there years as they have become available, in terms of them, in terms of traditional ballistics, is this investigation the same as it would be if it was a gun you bought down at your local gun shop, if it was a more traditional handgun, an ar-15, or is something that is made on a 3d printer a different kind of investigation? >> right, chris. first, i would say that we don't know that it's a ghost gun made

on a 3d printer. >> it may have been made. may have been made. >> may have -- he said may have been e made, right. and many ghost guns are not made on d printers at all. most of them aren't. that's one possibility. ghost guns are sold on the internet under what we call, you know, 60, 70, 80% kits, so the gun is a regular metal frame receiver but it's not a complete gun. so then you have to buy the other parts to the gun, again, on the internet or at a gun show, and you have to do milling and drilling, a few hours of work to put it together. it's a real gun. it has everything a real gun has. it just doesn't have a serial number, it doesn't have a manufacturer's stamp, all required by federal law. does it leave marks in the barrel inwhen it shoots a projectile on the cartridge? yes. does it leave marks on the bullet? yes. does it leave a firing pin mark on the primer?

yes. all of those things are the se same. it's just untraceable. now, if it's a 3d printed gun, it's going to depend on what the material they used when they 3d printed it, and that sometimes may give the firearms examiner some difficulty in matching it. my guess is it's not 3d printed. it could be. it could very well be one of these kits off the internet. again, the silencer is probably a ghost silencer as well. i was really surprised when the nypd came out and thought this was a veterinary gun, when you look at the video, it's clearly not. the gases, the gun smoke comes out of the top ejection port. he racks the slide multiple times. nothing he did was acting like a veterinary gun. that's not what that gun is. so in a nutshell, this case is, you know, beauty captures the kn beast. if it wasn't for the clerk at the hostel who flirted with the killer, we wouldn't have a full

face picture. and i commend the commanders of nypd detective for releasing those pictures quickly, and also which hasn't been said yet, but really good work by the altoona pd, and certainly the employee at mcdonald's who i would hope cdis going to be 60k richer for giving the tip in. altoona pd also, they didn't dismiss it out of hand. they went into it, like rob said, they interviewed him. find the gun. what's interesting in a new york video when he shoots mr. thompson, if you can watch it all the way through, as he goes past mr. thompson, he doesn't put the gun in the backpack. he stuffs it down the left side of his pants. and he's caught with the gun a week later. now, that shows one of two things. he's a doofus because he's carrying a murder weapon a week later, or this was only one murder and he was going to do more murders, so he wanted to

keep the gun. so when the chief of detectives says a manifesto railed against corporate america, that gives me pause that maybe this wasn't the only person he intended to shoot, because he's keeping the murder weapon. it's a big risk to walk around with a murder weapon. he's going to find that out. >> that's certainly a possibility, cedric, and walking around with the gun, walking around with the id that matches the id of where you checked in when you were in manhattan a week earlier, those kinds of things. but a couple -- first of all, i should say, according to those who have seen the manifesto, if that's what you want to call it, a three-page note that is in the possession right now of local police, at least according to nypd, he did not name anyone else. so we don't know, but first of all, the fact he had that note, outlining, as they put it, the motive and imindset, but also sitting in a mcdonald's.

if you're hungry, and you're on the run, don't you go in, get your lunch, and get out, get away from people who might recognize you? i wonder if i'm overthinking that, the fact that he had on his person the gun, the i.d., three pages maybe suggesting he wants people to know exactly why he did this. he wrote it down. w and then sitting at a very public place, a mcdonald's. can't imagine many more public places than that, cedric. >> well, that may be suggestive of a number of things. one, clearly, it could be and come to mind to me quite frankly, was he ready to be captured? and clearly, his face has been seen all across the country and around the globe and even though he used this mask a majority of the time, they say he took it off his face, of course, when he put food in his mouth.

but also at the same time, you're talking about someone who murdered someone openly in the middle of a street, and attempted to flee. that speaks a lot to his mindset and how he thinks, feels, and views and experiences the world he lives in. so there are also going to be further information, i'm quite sure, that we're going to learn about before the day is over and into tomorrow as well, too. but i do find it interesting at this point, he is still considered a person of interesta they have not announced a formal arrest. i would imagine that's coming later, but that speaks to the professionalism and the thoroughness, i think, of law enforcement agencies that want to make sure that this case is air tight based on the evidence that they have gathered over the last week. >> yeah, and we don't know, rob, whether or not in this questioning he said, you know, i

want to assert my fifth amendment rights, we don't know whether he said i would like to see a lawyer, but who would be questioning him and o what woul be the keys as they look toward potentially charging him, arresting him? >> in the beginning, as they're first talking to him and he wasn't in custody, anything said is admissible, so once they determine he gave the fake i.d. and then they put him in the car, now in custody, then that's when the miranda rights should come out. don't know if they did it or brought him down to the police station and hopefully they ll mirandized him then. at this point, you just want to be safe. you want to make sure that everything he says stays as evidence, so you read the miranda warning. they may have been in touch with the nypd, nypd could have said, hey, we're sending someone out in a helicopter, kind of wait for us to get out there, or hey, try to build some rapport. we'll be out there in 45 minutes, an hour. it's a four-hour drive, so i

assume with everything they got, they probably fly some folks out there. but you really want to keep whatever he says admissible, so if they're building rapport with him and not asking him direct questions, you can take that. y but again, read him his rights. knowing nypd was on the way, they may have waited.ai they probably took physical pictures of the manifesto, probably sent them to the officers that were coming in, again, questioning him, because you want to be able to talk to him about it. i think he wants his story to be told, so si think coming in an having some empathy, understanding his manifesto may get hihim to talk. if i did get a chance to look at his twitter account, what was surprising is he had three pictures up, and the middle one was an x-ray of a spine with it seemed to be like four screws on the bottom of the spine, and it was an x-ray photo. again, something to do with health care that may be relevant

that they can talk to him about. >> literally, an x-ray with screws in a spine. >> yes. from the side. and it was a lower spine, and it looked like four large screws into the spinal cord, again, on the x-ray. don't know if it was his or, again, if this was related to a family member or something likem that, but again, i think it's significant. and the detectives that are going in to talk to him want to come up with, how are we going to, again, you don't go in hostile with this. you want to talk to him.ta he has a story to tell. it's all a part of admitting it and getting him to talk about it. you have come in and have some empathy for having maybe denied health care coverage. i know what you're talking about, like, i get it. it looks like you had an injury. can you tell us about that? get him to talk and build that rapport. again, with miranda warnings beforehand. >> yeah, and i will say, out of an abundance of caution, nbc

news has not confirmed his social media accounts or anything on them, although i feel quite confident our teams uiare working on that right now. let's talk a little bit, charles coleman, about alvin bragg, because we heard a little shout out that he got, i think from the police commissioner, who said he's been working on this 24/7 from the very first moment that this shooting happened. you know a little bit about how t a case gets built. so talk to me about the things that have been going on in the five days and what would be happening now. i'm assuming that there is a prosecutorial team already in place on this. >> yes, chris. what's likely happening is the d.a.'s office is providing support to nypd and has been providing support to law enforcement through their detective investigators. and what detective investigators are is basically a special team of investigators and detectives that are members of the nypd but assigned specifically to the d.a.'s office. what they do is they follow up

with specific leads that are le intended to benefit the d.a.'s office because they're trained specifically by prosecutors around what they need to put together eya case. as everyone has been talking, one of the things i have been thinking about is s as far as t investigation is concerned, it is critically important that all the steps of questioning are handled appropriately and all is are dotted and ts are crossed. one of the reasons is you don't want to have later on with the prosecution tof whomever ends being arrested for this, an issue with suppression of a confession, an issue with suppression of a statement or anything confiscated or acquired from the detainment of an individual connected to an di arrest. so the detective investigators as well as the prosecutors from alvin bragg's office are going to be working very closely with the nypd to make sure that everything in this questioning and anything that is secured as far as a statement is done up to

snuff so dothey don't have problems down the line when it comes to prosecution. >> let me stop you there because we all know of cases in real life and all the time on television of a mistake or a few mistakes that may in and of themselves not seem horribly significant, but they can literally tank a case. so what are the things that keep prosecutors up at night or what are the kinds of things they might gently be reminding even the most experienced of law enforcement about how to handle putting together the evidence, the questioning, and all the things that would ultimately go into a prosecution if there is one? >> i tithink the two things i would be thinking about now if i was in alvin bragg's office as an assist nltd are number one, making sure, and it's been mentioned, the timeline with respect to whenever miranda is given is consistent with whatever it is you write down around ithe statements. there's a very thin line between

getting someone to say something before they have been officially placed into custody, that's admissible, that you can keep, that you can use, versus something that should have been made after someone is placed in custody and after miranda was given and tecan ultimately be suppressed. that's what i'm thinking about, when was miranda given and how does that coincide with when hathey're saying he was taken io custody. number two, not the most exciting thing in the world, but it is very important. paperwork, paperwork, paperwork. everything that is documented with respect to how the investigation was conducted, when the tip came in, what the tip actually said, what led to the actual stop and apprehension of whomever ultimately is deemed responsible and arrested, all of that has to coincide with what is presented in court. if it's off by just a little bit, it's going to create a problem for prosecutors. so it's critically important despite the fact these are good leads, these are good signs, that when everything is said and done, all of the paperwork

matches up, because for any defense attorney, what they're going to be looking at is trying to find any sort of discrepancy they can try to make be material as to why something should be suppressed. if i'm the prosecutor in the case, i'm trying to make sure whether it's a taped statement, a taped confession, everything lines up from a timeline perspective and we make sure that, again, everything is in order so that when this is ultimately presented to a judge and a jury, there's no question that everything that they need to come in, that they need to use to prosecute this case is available to them. >> we heard a lot of praise for the lonypd and i think there's doubt there are a lot of investigators who didn't get a 'twhole lot of sleep since this murder occurred and who have been working, when you talk about again, going through thousands of hours of video off of hundreds of cameras, knocking on literally hundreds of doors in places around where he was seen, it is an extraordinary amount of good old fashioned leg

work, aided by, right, the cameras, the videos, the other technology that we have today. that's something new york city is particularly used to, big cases. maybe not so much in altoona, pennsylvania, but we talk a lot when t there is a big story, an often, for example, a mass shooting, about how training has changed. and how much local police officials have worked to get their officers better training, more training. in general, in police agencies,p midsized cities, i looked up l 46,000 people in altoona, pennsylvania. would they have had constant refreshers, constant training, or at least not constant but regular training about how to deal with a situation that could lead to potentially, i don't know, a murder charge?a >> you know, any of these crimes can happen anywhere, any city,

usa, and when you have the metropolitan city like new york, they're equipped based on this long history of having to deal with high-profile cases as such, e not only involving one individual but thousands of people at utone time. so when you take a smaller community like altoona, and other small police departments across the country, they do receive training. and the training, and of course, the experience that they have might be -- may not be as frequent and often is not as frequent as you are in a larger metropolitan city such as new york or l.a. or dallas or miami or whatever. but i would speak to their training with the greatest deal of confidence that they are well trained. they constantly get good training and that's going to speak aito the agency in and of itself. remember, there are 17,000 different police agencies that are out there, but many of them bdo follow some state rule,

regulation around training. and that is hugely important, particularly that's also going to lycome into play.e >> i'm going to interrupt you, i'm sorry, but we have new information. and it's coming by way of sam g brock, who has been on this story for us.r sam, what's the latest you have right now? >> reporter: sure, so chris, it's sour understanding now th it appears the person of interest or strong person of interest in this case, luigi mangione appears to be the cousin of a maryland state legislator. trying to get more information on his background. we heard from the chief of detectives about the fact this is someone who grew up in the baltimore, maryland area. last known location was honolulu, had ties to san francisco, attended college in t pennsylvania. coso the pieces, the portrait o the person who is currently being questioned still sort of coming up right now, but as far as some of the other more salient pieces of information that we t got just now, hundred

upon hundreds of videos, video cameras and drones, according to the chief of detectives, that allowed them to get to this point, because if we reverse for a second and recall only a day ago, no identity. in fact, mr. kennedy said today, chief of detectives, they didn't know tihis identity earlier tod until recently. so all of this is coming to the fray now. they also were not aware, authorities, of which bus the person auof interest here may he fled on. it took someone at a mcdonald's, and ironically, after ten days of hearing from police that the person ngof interest was so careful, so meticulous, he didn't even take down his mask while he was ving at the hostel for ten days except to eat, but he sat at a mcdonald's eating. those are the most crystal clear ones we have, of course, from the hostel, when he takes his mask down to flirt, according to police, with a woman who workedn

there. then the scene today in altoona, pennsylvania, four and a half hours away. it really does go to show you tothe granular research with whh authorities approached this process and just tried to find the best possible visuals to share with the public. it did pay off. someone, a complete stranger, wasn't even someone who knew this individual, but someone working at a mcdonald's spotted them, thought they were acting suspiciously, called altoona police. they arrived 9:15 this morning for someone that was acting suspiciously. they checked his items, his i.d., found out it was a fake i.d. he was taken for questioning and as we now know, it's the exact same i.d., fake i.d., that was found at the hostel he had used there that police had investigated ththere, with the exact same name. so the parallels are really starting to come together. also, just to add, a lot of questions about what might have driven or motivated this shocking crime that happened in

midtown manhattan at 6:45 on a wednesday and whether there was an idealogical bent behind thatb we have been getting crucial information from detectives. writing on the shell cases, s delay, deny, depose, potentially a reference to those unsatisfied about insurance policies in this country and family members and loved ones who have a hard time getting critical coverage. whether that's true or not true, between that and the monopoly money and now according to the police commissioner, a handwritten three-page document ndthat speaks to what his minds might have been and intention. more information will come to light about whether or not this was idealogically driven, we are y not getting information to se into suggest this was personal animus or potentially in the words of the chief detectives, an anti-corporate viewpoint that was embodied in his works. we're looking to get more

information about the person of interest. it appears he's related to a maryland or. >> and grew up in baltimore. we knew he was from maryland and there is reporting he went to college in pennsylvania. the folks here who are much more experienced with law enforcement than i am would say it's not necessarily unusual for people to go places where they might have contacts or might feel comfortable. we'll see if somewhere in that neighborhood around altoona is where odhe went to college.en but rob, i'm wondering, i also want to go back to something that police said at the press conference that happened before the top of the hour, which is that just in new york city, inthree times in three days, he of the public led them to an arrest in a case, and again, all of this technology, all of the police work, which again, did bring the photo to the public, but see something say something isn't just a saying, is it?

>> oh, absolutely not. i mean, you look at the t majority, again, i think it's a blend of good policework gets the photo, and then once they need the public to do that, and they weigh, should we release the , photo now, is it going to interrupt things, or if we don't know, let's release the photo, and they do leit quickly. then it gets out. now you have millions of people, because i think there's a bigger true crime and all the podcasts and everything coming on is people are finding out that they like to be investigators. you talk to so many people, i talk to so many people as an fbi guy, opi really wanted to do th if i could, and then they get involved in things like that and thstart using the internet and start doing things, and people are more involved. no matter what good police work, no one is going to turn down a tip like this because frankly, nypd did not have anyone in altoona in that mcdonald's, but

it was just one aware person who really kind of understands what mcdonald's customers do, and saw someone that wasn't functioning as atthey normally do, and had e courage to dmake that phone ca and then the great police work of altoona not blowing it off. so many times you think here's another tip of s someone who los like him, but you always have to do that. i worked fugitives and on itsaturdays america's most want, we would s be running the city l night e because calls were comil in, but you never blew one off vebecause it's always going to one ayperson that sees somethin that says t something. so it's, again, great police work, but also the public. >> yeah, and it's interesting, jim kavanaugh, anyone following this story over the weekend and frankly, lots of people were, because if you looked at any of the social media activity, there were a lot of the people that rob talked about who became fascinated with the case.ec there are obvious reasons. you have the video, first of

all. you have midtown manhattan at christmas time. but also, it sparked a lot of negativity online from people who have had bad experiences with insurance companies and as we anat least know this little t about these three pages, there was some ill will toward corporate america. so talk a little bit about sort of the ligood and the bad of social media, because it does engage bepeople, it gets them interested. it makes them follow a story. it may, we'll find out with this employee potentially, may have been one of those people who f just paid close attention to , thought ntmaybe he recognized somebody. but also, obviously, the downside of it, which is these are not, you know, trained professionals. a lot of stuff gets out there, a lot of it negative, a lot of it wrong. >> right, chris. look, the social crowdsourcing of information like rob was talking about and like you're

discussing here, i always welcome that in a big case. as long as people don't act on their own, as long as they supply law enforcement with information they think is relevant. that's fine, we have to have agents and detectives sort through it. as long as you don't act on your own or say this is the suspect where you can pick the wrong person. if you have a feeling of something, send it in. we want the tips.an we want to run them down. the founder of modern policing in england said the police are the people, the people are the police. in a democracy, that's what it is. so what happens in a very violent crime or bombing, vicious murder like this, it's everyone against the killer.le it's not just nypd against the killer. it's everyone against the killer. everybody wants to catch the killer. now there's always a few people who want to support him, but that's a handful. most people want to see him caught and see him charged and stand trial. chris, i would just like to say i think the most important thing in this case is the gun and the

silencer. and i think the case will hinge on the terry frisk in policing, we call it terry frisk, it allows a police officer to pat down and frisk a suspect if -- to prevent the officer from harm and to heprevent the suspect's escape. they can't search inside their pockets because they h don't ha a warrant or probable cause, but they can pat them down while tthey're questioning them to prevent them from being injured or the person to escape. this gun is going to be found in a pat down. i would say when the pd arrived at mcdonald's and they're told we think d'this is the killer fm new york, they might ask for an i.d. first, maybe, or they might pat down first. either way, that's going to be a valid search under terry v. ohio, and that's going to be how the evidence is challenged, because if that gun matches the bullets at the scene, this is the most critical evidence in

the case. i have had many cases, and we all have assembled here, where nobody emtalks and many cases where the guy talks. but it won't matter if the gun matches the projectiles, the shell casings at the scene, whether he says anything or note he's caught with a murder weapon and all this video. it won't matter if he talks. the most important evidence is the thgun and silencer. from what we know today, it looks like the search, the fourth amendment search of this suspect for that gun looks good to me. and you know, charles can delve deep into that, but i was a t investigator working with alvt bragg, i would say get your very best terry versus ohio assistant d.a. and make them study every case on it because that's where the fight will be. if they can get the silencer and gun suppressed, maybe they would have a chance, but i don't think they have much chance. >> feel free, charles, to comment on that, but my bigger picture question, my immediate

question is, if there is indeed someone named a suspect, this gentleman possibly, if charges are filed in this case, is it automatically alvin bragg's? we know that at least this suspect came from out of state. he left the state. and how quickly assuming he doesn't have the financial wherewithal to get one or even if there would just be an initial ldcourt appearance, how quickly is counsel usually assigned? >> dealing first with the question of whether it's alvin bragg's, the answer is absolutely yes. this is a crime that occurred in new york, in new york city, in alvin bragg's jurisdiction. it would be something that right now for everything that we know and the hifacts that have been released would be a state and local crime, so this is something that alvin bragg and the new york d.a.'s office would handle. i yothink there may be other issues that him crossing federal lines and crossing interstate

lines sicould potentially play role in terms of what is charged, but the lion's share of what we're talking about is absolutely under bothe purview alvin bragg's office.al right now, i think there are several routes that prosecutors could have to a conviction in tthis case. i absolutely agree in terms of physical evidence, the silencer, the gun, and ballistics matching is probably the most sure fire way e of making sure that the individual responsible is held to account.ld but in addition to that, i think when you're talking about what's taactually charged, don't underestimate the value of the manifesto, because what that is going to do is it is going to show a degree of premeditation and motive, and intent that is potentially going to allow alvin bragg's office to bring forth the most serious of charges with respect to the homicide that they are able to do, and a lot of times you're not able to prove that e because it's very difficult, quite frankly, to establish what's in someone's

head. here, you have a manifesto. you have actual words that someone has written down about more or less their disdain with corporate america and potentially america's health care system, denials, things of that nature. when you couple that with the action, if you have the physical evidence and all that gets admitted it does pave the way for e a multitude of avenues fo you to get the conviction on the highest n count possible. so i don't necessarily think it's one or the other. i absolutely agree that the physical evidence of the ballistics matching is going to csbe damning for a defense in ts case. but i also want people to pay attention to the importance of tothe actual manifesto and also being something that prosecutors will be meable to use. >> the breaking news that police have arrested a strong person of interest stin altoona, pennsylvania, in the manhattan shooting of a health care executive. they identify him as 26-year-old luigi mangione, a maryland native. grew up around baltimore, maryland. has ties to san francisco and

honolulu. no prior new york arrests. and when he was taken by police, not only did they say he matches the description of the pictures that have become so familiar to us, but there's a connection to several items in his possession, including a gun and a fake i.d. sam brock, cedric alexander, jim kavanaugh, charles coleman jr., rob demeco, amazing conversation. thank you all so much. and straight ahead, nbc news is on the ground in syria after the stunning fall of bashar al assad's regime to rebel forces. the celebrations in the streets and fears for the future. that's ahead on chris jansing reports, only on msnbc.nl no way. ♪♪ if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis, and are at high risk for fracture, you can do more than just slow bone loss. you can build new bone in 12 months with evenity®. evenity® is proven to significantly reduce spine fracture risk. she said the evenity® she's taking builds new bone.

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. we have breaking news. the syrian rebels who toppled bashar al assad, they're vowing to secure the stockpiles of chemical weapons the former dictator used on his own people. in a statement, the rebels said, we are committed to insuring the safety of these sites and guaranteeing they are not used in any aggression, whether against our people or any other party. we will not allow a repetition of the tragedies that syria has witnessed in the past. despite the uncertain future, today in damascus, there was nothing but joy on the streets. syrians celebrating the stunning fall of the assad regime. nbc's richard engel is on the ground in the syrian capital for us.

richard. >> reporter: the events here have been staggering. we're now right in the center of damascus, more than 1,000 people have come here. they have been coming all day to celebrate. they have been firing guns in the air. if you look down at the ground, you see all of the bullet casings, the constant stream of celebratory gunfire. after more than five decades in power, the assad family dynasty has been overthrown. bashar al assad had been fighting a civil war in this country and winning largely for the last ten years, was dramatically overthrown in just ten days. people here are stunned. they're generally optimistic. rebels, who overthrew the government, not putting up much of a fight as rebels moves into damascus and armed forces moved away, taking off uniforms. the rebels are here being greeted like heroes. we have been speaking to people, very happy today. >> very happy.

very happy. very happy. >> very happy. why are you very happy? >> we have been ignored. >> reporter: he's saying in arabic that the reason they are happy is they got rid of that pig, they got rid of bashar al assad. what comes next in this country is a major challenge. a new beginning for syria. >> thank you so much, richard engel. the united states conducted more than 75 air strikes against isis targets in syria on sunday, a day after the collapse of assad's regime. nbc news senior national security correspondent courtney kube is reporting from the pentagon. tell us more, what do we know about the biden administration's approach in this moment of what is great uncertainty in syria? >> reporter: yeah, and i think what our viewers really need to understand is just the enormous scale of those 75 targets that the u.s. military struck in

syria yesterday. so it was at least five different locations, at least 75 targets. using bombers, a-10s, using u.s. air force assets. it was a huge strike. we don't know a whole lot specifically about what they hit other than there were a number of isis personnel including some isis leadership in the area who had moved into one specific area so it was more of a target of opportunity. chris, one of the reasons the u.s. was able to take this strike after these isis leaders and facilities is because that was an area that had been controlled by the russian military. once it was no longer russian air space, as it is now, that with hts taking over syria or at least parts of syria, the russian military seeming to move out of that area, the u.s. was able to take this as a target of opportunities, take out these isis fighters. the u.s. military has about 900 personnel in syria, roughly that number, it goes up and down. the mission is to go after isis.

the big question now is, what will the relationship be between this rebel group that we were seeing there with richard engel, hts, and isis? the reality is, in the past, there have been links between al qaeda, alnoose raw front, ats, and isis. at some point or another, there has been some overlap between the groups but it's not clear whether isis will be able to move freely once hts is really, if they are installed in the government there in damascus, chris. for now, it appears the u.s. military is continuing this mission to continue going after isis with the syrian democratic forces. the other big question is these prisons that exist throughout parts of eastern syria, holding tens of thousands of isis fighters. these are some of the most hardened isis fighters. for now, the pentagon is saying they're confident they will continue to secure those prisons with the syrian democratic forces. but that's another big thing we

need to be watching in the days and weeks ahead. are those prisons, do they continue to be secured? is there any concern about any of those isis fighters being able to get out, chris? >> that's a good question. thank you for that. i want to bring in james jeffrey, former u.s. envoy to syria, and chair of the middle east program at the wilson center. so great of you to be patient and come on with us. we had a lot of breaking news today. look, you heard courtney's report. i know you have met with leaders in syria and neighboring iraq to coordinate the fight against isis. how concerned are you that isis could seize this moment of uncertainty and what do you make of these strikes? >> first of all, thanks for having me on. i don't think isis is in any position. i have known indirectly the position of the hts people. they have fought isis in the past. i don't think they're any friends. however, that's a red line for us.

the reason we did this enormous strike was to send a signal to everybody, isis, whoever is in charge of damascus in this very complex and uncertain situation, and the world that we are going to continue to maintain pressure on isis. which by the way requires at least some u.s. troops on the ground, which we have in northeast syria. secondly, the chemical weapons that the israelis struck a series of strikes and you have also reported, the hts leader has said they would take control of, and that's good, too. the third thing we'll watch is whether turkish supported forces will attack our kurdish allies, the syrian democratic forces, to the east of the euphrates where we have an agreement since 2019 with the turks not to assault in that area. so those are our three specific red lines. the rest is simply the usual. we want reconciliation, we want inclusiveness, we want all of the various factions that are

fighting to come together, and we would like to see the u.n. take the lead as they have the mandate ever since 2015 to put the country back together again. >> let's talk about the hopes of the people we're seeing on the streets of damascus and elsewhere in syria and the joy they're feeling right now, after so many decades of being under such an oppressive regime. the rebel leaders, once had tied to al qaeda, but they broke with the group to take a more moderate stance. for instance, today, they banned any intervention in women 's tire. they say personal freedom is guaranteed. what will you be watching for to show they may in fact be a moderating influence? >> yeah, moderation is -- look, these are islamists in a country that the bulk of the population, over 70%, are muslims. and the majority of those are sunni muslims and they're very

conservative. that said, what we're going to be watching is first of all, the three red lines, attacks on our kurdish allies, chemical weapons, and any playing footsy with the islamic state. more importantly, we want to see whether this main fighting force under gilani, the hts, can join with the other forces. there's a group from the south, the southern command center, that's supported by jordan and israel indirectly. there's, of course, the kurds supported by us, the syrian democratic forces and the syrian national army supported by turkey. so it's important that these forces, all of whom own territory, are able to come together under some new arrangement. i'm delighted because i worked for years on syria, to see the happiness on the faces of the people, but we have seen this in egypt. we have seen this in yemen, in libya, and it didn't turn out

too well in the end. so we have to really weigh in. i think we have the capability of doing this with our partners and allies, turkey, israel, arab states, the kurds, others. we can make this happen. >> this is also a rare moment of hope for the family of an american, austin tice, a journalist held since 2012. they are hopeful that this might mean that after such a long time, he may finally be released. are they right to be optimistic? is there an opening here potentially? >> we need to find out what happened to him. we believe, and this is all we knew, at least from the intelligence i had, and i think i saw most of it, that he had been detained by regime forces, assad's people, who are ing as members of the islamic state back in 2012, 2013. since then, we haven't had any sign one way or the other. so we need to get to the bottom of this.

we need to bring him home if he's alive. >> ambassador james jeffrey, thank you so much. >> and straight ahead, more breaking news here in manhattan where a jury has found daniel penny not guilty in the subway chokehold death of jordan neely. . with liberty mutual. customize and sa— (balloon doug pops & deflates) and then i wake up. and you have this dream every night? yeah, every night! hmm... i see. (limu squawks) only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ i've been worn by celebrities, athletes, and world leaders. but i've always felt most comfortable up here, with the folks that made me who i am. i'm right at home, out here on the land. and i'm in my lane on the shoulder of the interstate. because this is where i come from. i've been showing up here for nearly 200 years.

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so there's other breaking news we're following now on a very busy monday. a jury in manhattan has found daniel penny of criminally negligent hamicide in the subway death of jordan neely. they accused him of using a chokehold that killed neely a black homeless man with a history of mental illness. but pane's lawyers argue he was defending other on the train from a threat. lisa rubin is here to break it down. some people might be surprised because this came after they deadlocked on a manslaughter charge.

often when they're given a lesser possible charge, they'll come back with guilty. tell us about this. >> i'm not surprised because when they were considering the higher more elevated charge, the manslaughter charge, they would have been required to find two things. one, that daniel penny acted recklessly in performing that chokehold on jordan neely. two, that the d.a.'s office had failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt there was no justification for his actions. based on the notes the jury sent last week, it seemed as if that was the part that they were stuck on. and the reason that that matters is in order to find him guilty even of criminally negligent homicide, they still would have had to agree unanimously that the d.a.'s office failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that daniel penny was unjustified in his actions. given that, it didn't surprise me coming back after a weekend, they were let off by the judge on friday afternoon, to come back today, i wasn't surprised

at all they quickly acquitted him. >> can we talk about sort of the mood of the country? a lot of people mentioned that to me who came up to me and asked me about this case this weekend. "the new york times" points out that some who saw the actual four minutes of footage of mr. penny, they say his actions reflected transit riders' fears and frustrations and overall concern about crime in new york city, but cities overall. is it possible to separate fears or thoughts about what it's like on the subway system from jury deliberations? >> yes and no. jurors are asked prior to being seated whether they have certain biases or prejudices that might disqualify them from service. of course, this is a jury made up of manhattanites. this was tried by the manhattan district attorney's office. everybody on the jury lives on this island and most if not all of them have experiences every day with public transportation. you're right to say that we're

at a moment right now, particularly here in new york, where folks are fed up with what they perceive to be the lack of safety on mta public transit. >> i'm going to say thank you because we have more breaking news. this is involving that person of interest in the murder of the ceo in manhattan. i want to bring in tom winter. we have been reporting throughout the last couple hours that that person of interest was being questioned in altoona, pennsylvania. but now you have some actual images of things that the police collected in that mcdonald's? >> right. so chris, luigi mangione, a strong person of interest, has not yet been charged, but this individual had a number of items on his person, we're told, when he was taken into custody. we have been talking about them all afternoon here on msnbc and now we can show them to you. from my colleagues, this is a fake i.d. this is not his real driver's license.

obviously, mark rosario is not that person. what makes this interesting is that this is what we were told was the i.d. he presented to that hostel on the upper west side in new york city when he was checking in. then, this license, we're told by six senior law enforcement officials, was found in his bag or on his person in altoona, pennsylvania. this gun, that's a gun that was also shown as well. so again, these are the types of pieces of information and things that cardboard box is just a standard gun evidence box, they'll eventually secure that, and we're told that is likely a ghost gun, so that is a gun, chris, that somebody made at home or perhaps he made at home. either way, all critical clues in the investigation. >> i'm also curious, tom, if you had a chance to talk to anyone about these three pages. this is something they found handwritten, they say, on his person, that speak to, and i'm quoting police officials here, motive and mindset that

suggested ill will toward corporate america. what it means he even had written out, three pages, of what seems to be an explanation of why someone might carry out something like this. >> he's got a significant online presence. we're combing through all that, trying to determine what is authentic. we have had instances in the past where people create accounts after a suspect is named or a person of interest is named, but we're going through all that and it's clear to information that we have garnered over the last couple hours here that this person does speak out on a whole host of topics, in addition to that, law enforcement officials as well as the chief of detectives at his press conference talked about a three-page written note he left behind that talks about corporate america specifically, i think, with the details of that note come out, it's going to tie it more back to some of the things we have been talking about for the last five, six

days. >> but no one else when they read this, they didn't see any mention of any specific names, no one else they can point to who might be in danger or who he might have been targeted? >> i totally appreciate the question. that's contained within the investigation. >> let me ask you finally where this goes from here and what you know about what they're doing now. are they still questioning him? do we know? what are the next steps here? i assume he'll be brought back to manhattan. >> the nypd detectives are on their way to altoona. they have not arrived a half hour ago. they'll speak with him, if they believe this is their person and if they do want to charge him, that gun right there is a potential problem for him, whether or not he was tied to the ceo's death or not. he'll likely face charges on that and they can seek his extradition to new york. >> i should tell people on a note, a personal note that we

were talking here on set before all of this, the press conference happened, and you said there may be times that i'll have to say to you, that is part of the ongoing investigation. there it is. tom winter, we're so lucky to have you on our team and all your great sources. that's going to do it for us this hour. our coverage continues with katy tur reports next. ty tur reports next ♪♪ michael strahan: i've been a part of the st. jude family for years. and i never thought i'd hear the words, "your child has cancer." well, my 18-year-old daughter was diagnosed with medulloblastoma, a brain tumor. she chose to be treated closer to her twin sister. and thankfully, she is in remission today. st. jude's groundbreaking research in medulloblastoma has helped pediatric hospitals everywhere. st. jude is committed to finding cures and saving children. please donate now. knock, knock.

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