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it is good to be back with you on this second hour of chris jansing reports. at this hour, dramatic entrance to court. the outburst from the suspect accused of killing the unitedhealthcare ceo just before he faced a judge who will decide if he goes back to manhattan, the scene of the crime. what he said and the latest from inside court. pushing for the votes. donald trump's pick for defense secretary pete hegseth back on the hill after nearly a month of controversy. inside the two key meetings with gop senators that could signal if the mood might be shifting. plus, who leaked?

donald trump's doj secretly obtaining phone and text message logs of congressional staffers and two members of congress. that's according to a new watchdog report. their search for answers on who was and wasn't leaking to the press. also, money talks. the auctioneer involved in the onion's bid for alex jones' info wars defending the buy as the fight continues over that sale. our nbc news reporters are following all of the latest developments. we with gin with george solis who has new details on the unitedhealthcare ceo's shooting suspect. we showed a little bit of it, the suspect yelling at cameras as he was heading into court to face the judge. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: yeah, chris. good to be with you. a very electric moment as luigi mangione appeared at the courthouse, appearing to talk to those cameras saying something along the lines of completely out of touch and it is an insult to the intelligence of the american people.

it's not entirely clear what he said as he's slammed against the wall. he was clearly agitated and clearly had something to say. that's the most animated we have seen him. this is the same courthouse where he had his appearance yesterday before a judge where he was listed and read the charges he faces in pennsylvania. five charges, two felonies and three misdemeanors to which at that point he was very quiet. he answers yes, no, yes, sir, no, sir. it was only after he was denied bail that he did speak up, chris. that was one of the first moments where we actually saw a little bit of his demeanor and a little bit of that attitude change, when he questioned when prosecutors said he had about $8,000 in a bag they found in a bag with him at mcdonald's as well as a bag they described high in tech, to which he said i don't know what you're talking about. i don't know where that cash came from. as tar as the high level of sophistication, that bag is simply waterproof. beyond that, up to this point, again, very solemn, very quiet

up until this outburst. no cameras, no electronics allowed in the courtroom, so our team is presumably gathering the intel, what is happening inside that extradition hearing which was supposed to take place around 1:30. we'll learn the fate whether or not he's heading to manhattan to face murder charges for the murder of brian thompson. this entire community rattled by all this that unfolded yesterday. the deputy chief telling me earlier today, this community is getting threats now, chris, even the police officers here, the department itself, so they're hoping this extradition hearing wraps up. they're just looking for a peaceful transfer from mangione out of pennsylvania into new york. >> not the kind of attention that altoona wanted. george solis, you'll get back to us if there's an update. thank you. the tide may be turning for president-elect trump's pick for defense secretary, pete hegseth. on capitol hill today, nbc's ali vitali following it for us. tell us more about what you're

hearing about these meetings on the hill today. this morning i heard you talk about maybe a slight mood shift, just even in terms of does he get a confirmation hearing. >> yeah, chris. you know this building functions on vibes by and large. we certainly know that privately, senators were expressing skepticism about pete hegseth, both his qualifications and his character, after allegations that range from sexual assault to misuse of funds and misuse of alcohol. but in the aftermath of that continuous drip of allegations, it now seems that the turf has at least settled a little bit for pete hegseth as he begins yet another week of making the rounds on capitol hill including visits with senators who have expressed public skepticism, like people like joni ernst of iowa, who last week, after their meeting, said it was productive and frank. this week was a little more open about it, said she was supporting him throughout this process. that was good news if you ask

hegseth. listen. >> how impactful was that statement from the senator in your canvassing? >> grateful that she said she's going to support us through that process. that's what we talked about. it's been substantive and meaningful. her background is significant on all these issues and i welcome all of the conversations. >> looking forward to a great conversation. >> reporter: now, an important point here, chris. support us through that process means i'll allow you to go through it, not i want to see you standing there as the nominee at the end of it. that is a good sign at this point given the fact that last week, the conversation privately on capitol hill was many republican senators didn't see a way forward for hegseth, so much so that we even saw names floated as alternates, does not seem that's where we are this week. >> ali vitali who is the new host of way too early. congratulations. when your alarm is going off at

3:30 in the morning, remember -- >> i'll call you. >> our viewers in hawaii and the west coast, it's merely a late night viewing show for them. congratulations. let's talk about this new watchdog report, it's just out. on how the justice department under then-president trump tried to root out who was leaking stories to reporters during his first term. nbc's ken dilanian is following this story for us. what did we learn with this report? >> reporter: chris, this report is a reminder of the awesome power of the justice department to conduct surveillance, secret surveillance on americans under the auspices of a criminal investigation. in this case, it was an investigation about leaked classified information linked to the russia investigation. began in 2017. investigators obtained the communication records, logs of phone calls and text messages of 43 congressional staffers and two lawmakers. the lawmakers were democrats.

without even informing the attorney general at the time. and the inspector general found that that was an impingement on separation of powers. that should not have happened with a coequal branch of government because whistleblowers could have been calling the committee and the justice department would have seen it. that would run afoul of current policy which would require senior doj officials to be notified. a few years later when bill barr took office, he approved secret subpoenas of the records of journalists involved in the stories and journalists were not notified this happened until months later. that ran afoul of some policies at the time and would be prohibited today under the biden justice department. but it's only a policy. it could be repealed by the next attorney general. the doj wields a lot of power and they can do it in secret and get private records. >> ken dilanian, thank you. now to an auctioneer's defense of the onion's $7 million bid for alex jones'

infowars. kathy park is following this story. what's the latest, kathy? >> reporter: hey, chris. good afternoon to you. so we are standing by for another day of witness testimony. the trustee, who is overseeing the sale of jones' assets, he's expected to take the stand later on this afternoon, and he might actually be the only other witness we hear from today. this is guidance we got from attorneys yesterday. on monday, that auctioneer was grilled for nearly five hours on whether the onion was properly named the winning bidder in last month's auction of infowars. there's a big discrepancy in the valuation of the bid from the onion which came in at $7 million, a little more context here. during november's auction, there were two bids offers. $1.5 million in assets from the onion and $3.5 million by first united american companies which runs a website in supplements.

jones attorneys asked the judge to block the sale because it didn't go to the highest bidder. and the attorneys alleged fraud and collusion. the auctioneer, however, yesterday defended the value of the $7 million bid because it includes a share of future revenue and therefore that was the higher offer. so the federal judge could rule as early as today. if approved, infowars will sell to the onion. if denied, the judge could call for a new auction. once again, the hearing gets under way in a few moments. >> okay, kathy park, thank you for that. in 90 seconds, building the case against luigi mangione, accused shooter of an insurance titan. it all happened on video with an apparent ghost gun, but is it a slam dunk for prosecutors? njoyie while watching the game. who's winning? we are, my friend. we are. eggs make all our family moments better. especially when they're eggland's best. taste so fresh and amazing.

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public health incidents. twice over the course of the latter half of last year, he had moments where he appeared to freeze on camera. those health experiences were never really explained by mcconnell's office, but we do know that he sought to reassure his colleagues and the press in the aftermath of those events. we have thought seen any health scares like that from mcconnell in the interim period from september through right now. but we do know that he has fallen in the past. there was a moment, i believe it was a year or more ago, where he fell leaving a fund-raiser here in washington and sustained some injuries. so we're of course waiting to hear from mcconnell's office at this juncture. we have, of course, reached out to them and are eager to hear back. but we can say, just at this point, preliminarily, mcconnell should be speaking alongside the rest of his republican leadership apparatus. they do a weekly press conference around this time, and our understanding is that john thune, who you see there on the

screen, flanked by joni ernst and john barrasso and others, other key members of mcconnell's leadership team, that mcconnell should be standing with them, and he is not. got to remember, although he is the outgoing minority leader, and thune has been elected in his stead, mcconnell is finishing out this congress, which doesn't end until the end of the year. we'll of course be staying on this and waiting to hear what details the minority leader's office provides. only preliminary details at this point. >> just to let people know, thune generally comes out, makes a statement, and there will be a q&a and they'll ask about mitch mcconnell who is 82, the longest serving senate party leader in senate history. we'll keep an ear to that. thank you so much. we aprese atd it. right now, we're also waiting for the end of an extradition hearing for luigi mangione, the suspect in the murder of a ceo, that hearing taking place in blair county, pennsylvania. we actually saw him shouting as he was brought in. the first part was hard to hear, but then we do hear the words,

an insult to the american people, and their lived experience. now, as we wait, we're seeing a critical shift from the massive manhunt for a killer to the massive investigation that will piece together the thousands of details that prosecutors will use to build the case against mangione. i want to bring in fbi supervisor rob demeco with me in studio, tom winter, and danny cevallos is a criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst. you know, i want to play that again because i think it's interesting, tom. that video that we just saw of him. obviously, the media, you can see the camera there. he realizes the media is on the other side of that police vehicle. and he wants to get a message out of some kind. he's yelling a message where he knows the press is standing. but let's talk a little bit about some of the unanswered questions. we started to get some clues from obviously the manifesto, some things that friends are

saying, his social media presence, now the things he may be trying to yell to the press. but as we look at prosecutors building a case, what don't we know? >> so from the standpoint of everything we have just discussed, it might be totally irrelevant. with respect to what prosecutors are trying to build, it's to tie him back to the killing which is what he's been charged with. so the gun, can they tie that gun back to the shooting? can they tie that gun to him? well, they say it was on his person yesterday. can they look at it and look at the words that are included in the writings found on him when he discusses exactly what it was that occurred in that driver's license, it's a fake driver's license on the right-hand side which we're told according to law enforcement officials was the one that was presented at the hostel on the upper west side. the same name, and then the one that was later on his person when he was taken into custody. so i think when you look at all that, it's probably something

that's going to be pretty helpful. you know, as far as the outburst we saw today, it kind of goes back to a question where had about this case from the beginning, which is if he didn't want to be captured and took all these steps to do it, then why are you then prepared to have effectively a statement and now he's speaking out. it's kind of like if you wanted to make a statement, you would have done so after the fact, but he took extraordinary steps to elude capture for almost a full week. so it's just an interesting kind of observation that i have, and i don't pretend to have any answers about it. >> i wondered about that yesterday. i thought he did such what seemed to be a preplanned job of getting out of new york, presumably getting on a bus. and then you sit and have breakfast at a mcdonald's where people can see you. so a lot of it, it does raise questions. i don't have an answer either. >> the same thing he did at the hostel where he has the mask on,

but he takes it down to eat. the line from his writings is, i do apologize for any strife or traumas, but it had to be done. frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. the person sitting to my left is probably much more qualified to tell us whether in front of a jury that accounts to an admission, but it's certainly not a denial of what occurred. i think that's something that he's clearly wanting to speak out about this, no better example than what we just saw seconds ago on screen which happened moments ago outside of his court hearing. >> and tie that into, danny cevallos, the fact that if you go to his social media page, you see among other things, an x-ray of a back, and his friends have talked about how he was in a lot of pain, how he had to have surgery and so on and so forth. so what are prosecutors doing right now to build this case? >> remember, there's a lot of information i think that we don't have yet. i wouldn't be surprised if we find out that prosecutors by the

time we -- by the time this suspect was apprehended, they knew who he was, maybe they had dna. i expect they had a lot more information than we knew publicly. so i have to say, when i see people online, on social media saying things like, well, the eyebrows don't match in this picture, folks, there's going to be more evidence than the matching eyebrows in the two different pictures. this is probably not going to end up being a who done it. we just don't know all the evidence yet. you'll have probably touch dna, you'll have -- you might even have winces from the hostel where he stayed. there's a lot of talk also on social media about how this was some kind of perfect crime. i don't think so at all, other than maybe moving into central park, which by the way, it has cameras, less cameras than midtown manhattan but probably more than say most of north muskegon, michigan. there are cameras in central park. all he really had was a head start, and because of that, he was able to get away for about a week. but other than that, there's

really a lot of evidence and once they had him, authorities seemed to think they have the right guy. that leads me to think they have more information than we do, more information that hasn't been released to the public yet. >> rob, we talked last hour about investigators getting a lot of stuff from his social media profile, and i guess my question is, he also had a laptop on him when he was arrested. so what are they doing? you know a lot about forensics, online forensics. what can they do in this day and age and what are they looking for? >> so right now, they're doing search warrants for those devices. just because he had them on him and they're captured, you still have to want to be correct in being able to search them. they're going to get search warrants for the phone, for the computer, and any other electronics they come across in any other search warrants. you want separate search warrants to search those items. with the phone, they're going to work on actually breaking the pin or the password. they may come to the fbi.

they have done it before. because you want to get into that phone. with encrypted apps, unless he has deleting messages, you want to look at all those apps and the messages going back and forth. and the only way you can do it is from the device, unless the laptop also had, you can share signal whatsapp, telegram, with a laptop or ipad, so you also want to search that one. they're going to go in, do a forensic copy of that, and then they're going to start looking at the forensic digital copies because you don't want to mess with the original phone or something. you want to do it on the forensic copy. so the one that you take to court is pure in that that forensic copy was from the actual device. but there's going to be so much going in there. there are search warrants to all the providers, too, with his twitter or x, his facebook, and they're going to get all that. they took it down offline, but the nypd or the fbi will get those social media accounts. again, to look at it.

you want three phases, you know, before the crime, for premeditation, during the crime, what was happening. there may be digital evidence there about the cell phone touching a tower close to it, and then after, to start looking at where he went, maybe for other search warrants and to start interviewing people. >> so that brings us to motive, danny, and this is somebody who had it seemed everything. went to a prep school, graduated as valedictorian, gets an undergraduate degree, masters degree from upenn, ivy league school. comes from a well-to-do family with a lot of connections. and there does seem to be, we don't want to presuppose anything, but from the little bit that's been public about his manifesto, if that's what we're going to call it, his writings, from what he just shouted, and may have been related to discontent with the insurance and the health care system in america. a lot of his friends including those in hawaii where he was

known to live most recently have talked about situations with his back. so let me play a little bit of that that came up with friends in conversations with people he knew. >> i was like, oh, my god. that's my neighbor. i just asked where he's been, for six months, he was like, just had medical stuff. >> earlier this year, i checked in with him. he confirmed he had surgery and sent me the x-rays. it looks heinous with giant screws going into his spine. >> so would investigators already have, would prosecutors already have his medical records? would they be able to easily subpoena him, and how important is motive in a prosecution? >> it's very important, although motive is not an element of crime, with some exceptions, but for the most part, motive is not an element. it's intent. >> but jurors want to know. >> exactly right. >> motive is something prosecutors will develop over time. so much to work with, so much on social media. just in the last 24 hours, tom,

i'm sure you have been sifting through mini manifestos, postings, all kinds of information. once they align that into a coherent theory, they will present that to a jury. juries like to know what the motive is. even if the government doesn't need to prove it, it's lepful, because juries always ask the question, why? why would someone do this? it seems already just based on what we learned in the last hours that the government, prosecutors will be able to come up with plenty of motive evidence. >> prosecutors in pennsylvania said they're working to determine if he had any accomplices. they indicated yesterday they didn't think there were any. so do they stop even looking for that? is he the sole focus now of this investigation? >> oh, no. i think they're going to do -- there are two specific areas where i think they're going to look to see if he had any sort of help. number one, it's a ghost gun, which means it's a homemade manufactured gun, not made by a federally licensed firearms manufacturer. so did he do it himself or buy it from somebody? whoever sold it to him if

somebody did sell it to him, they're potentially on the hook legally. that could potentially be an issue or a crime that they would look into, so that's number one. number two, if somebody gave it to him knowing he might do this, it could potentially be a legal issue there. and then the third thing is, was there anybody traveling with him at any point? was he communicating with anybody? even if that person doesn't have any sort of criminal intent or wasn't aware of what was going on, it would really be nice to know what he was saying on these journeys. if they have him in a particular bus at a particular time, they might look for passenger manifests and say, hey, did anybody recognize this guy on your bus? because it's our understanding and our reporting with my colleague, jonathan dienst coming from philadelphia to altoona, via bus, so did he tell anybody anything? did he say anything? all those types of things could be potentially important. >> now that this plethora of pictures are out there, more people will recognize him, presumably, and may come

forward. rob demeco, tom winter, danny cevallos, thank you all. >> still to come on chris jansing reports, as a fast-moving wildfire tears through malibu, we'll speak to the pepperdine university student who captured these haunting images as the flames got closer and closer to campus. because downy light is gentle and balanced. it's a nature inspired scent, to breathe life into your laundry. sofia vergara: in this family, we don't fight over the bill. we just take care of it. families never receive a bill from st. jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food, so they can focus on helping their child live. because at st. jude, taking care of families facing childhood cancer is just what we do. this holiday season, join our st. jude family. we need you. please donate now. to me, harlem is home. but home is also your body.

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kentucky senator mitch mcconnell fell during a republican lunch meeting. now, the incoming senate majority leader john thune was asked about it when he spoke to reporters just a few minutes ago. here it is. >> he is fine. he's in his office. and any other questions about senator mcconnell i'll refer to his staff. >> we'll keep an eye on this. our hill team is following up. we'll get back to you if there are more update on senator mcconnell's condition. malibu, california, has been called the wildfire capital of north america. and the fire coast for decades, in books, news coverage, academic journals. even people who have lived there their entire lives tell a local news station, the current fire escalated at a shocking rate. >> watch the glow get closer and closer, and then all of a sudden, the flames appeared over the top there. you could see all these houses light up. >> across the canyon, the flames

were just crazy. >> only twice since i lived here in this building for 43 years have i ever seen it come down this ridge, and ignite everything. >> nbc's liz kreutz is reporting from the ground in malibu. liz, talk a little more about what we know at this hour. >> reporter: well, hey, chris. the good news right now is we were just saying it feels like the winds here are dying down a little bit. but that has been what's been fueling these flames and made it go so fast overnight and spread so fast through the canyon and down here to the pacific coast highway where some parts it jumped the highway. the santa ana winds that in some areas got up to 80 miles per hour. most of the fire is burning up in these hills now. you can see a helicopter doing a water drop. you can still see smoke coming up, but firefighters have been working really hard to protect the property and the good news is there's been no reports of injuries so far from folks who had to get out at a moment's notice. i talked to one woman who sadly did lose her home.

she lives in a guest house on a property here in malibu. she's lived there five years. she had to get out late last night. take a listen. >> the smoke was heavy, your eyes were watering, and embers were flying everywhere, and we had to leave. i swept on the street last night, i was on pch, down by pepperdine. all of pepperdine was burning up. just fire everywhere around us. you know, local church, yeah, just standing there, and you can't do anything. you're just stuck. >> reporter: now, thousands of people remain evacuated right now here in this area. we're in the evacuation area. pepperdine, which is just north, about a mile that way, thankfully, the shelter in place has been lifted, but it was a really scary night for students too. it's finals for them and they had to shelter in place in the library and in the cafeteria in the middle of campus to protect themselves from the flames that were circulating around the university. thankfully, everybody is safe

there and the hope is these winds will continue to die down, but the reg flag warning remains in effect, not only here, but across southern california. chris. >> liz kreutz. thank you for that. let's go to pepperdine university, where students have been posting jaw-dropping images after spending the night sheltering in place just feet away from the raging franklin fire. joining me now, one of the students that was locked in at pepperdine's library overnith. you go to school at one of the most gorgeous campuses in the united states or anywhere else in the country, but it looked nightmarish last night. what was it like for you? >> yeah, absolutely right, it was nightmarish. the feeling is exactly what the last interviewing said, stuck. we felt stuck. that actually created a sense of calmness in a horrible, horribly panicked time where everyone just knew we were right here, we were where we needed to be. this is the safest place we can

be, and being stuck here is better than being stuck anywhere else. so it was a lot more calm than i expected it to be, but there was still some panic in the air, and it was a truly horrifying night. >> how did you end up there? did you feel adequately informed by the cool, by local officials? did people know where to go and what to do in a terrifying situation? >> i will be completely honest. i didn't know exactly what to do. i only knew to go to the library because unfortunately, my brother jack went here and had the almost exact experience and they sheltered in the library. >> you're kidding. >> no, so when we got the call to say hey, there's a fire and it's headed toward campus, i grabbed a few of friends i knew lived next to me and we headed toward the library pretty swiftly. >> if it's anything like when i was in college, you're in the middle of finals, it's stressful already. then you lost power. you watch this massive wildfire

creep closer. what's it like on campus today, now that maybe we hope the worst is over? >> absolutely. so today, now that hopefully the worst is over, it's a lot more calm, lots of people have made their own personal decisions on if they want to stay on campus or not. lots of people are just going home, getting lost sleep, talking to loved ones, making sure that everybody in their life is in order and making sure that they're well taken care of. our campus staff is doing a fantastic job at feeding us, making sure we're getting fed, and not having to worry about meal points and cost and what not for that, too. so it is 100% mellowed out, but the anxious shake is still in everybody's bodies still. >> and what about your family? i mean, i can only imagine, they went through it once, as you said, with your older brother. now with you, and presumably, he's fine. everything went okay. but that must have been intense

for your family and friends as well, who aren't on the campus. >> absolutely. i mean, it was -- it was a lot of work, and it was a lot of stressful -- a lot of stressful calculated calls. i felt like a fool sometimes just trying to get my feet under me. and i made sure i called everybody i needed to call, and my biggest priority was making sure everybody around me felt calm, making sure everybody around me felt like they were safe. there was a good 30 minutes in that last shot there where the fire really got close to the window and even i wasn't able to keep a level head. and i had a solid 30 minutes where i wasn't 100% sure if i was going to get out okay. but luckily, we're here now. >> wow. >> yeah. >> well, i'm glad you're there. you're safe. i hope if you have any finals left that you're able to concentrate. i don't know how. but seriously, thank you so much. we really appreciate you taking the time, and we're glad to see

you so safe. >> thank you very much. >> appreciate it. coming up on chris jansing reports, what could be the first steps toward accountability for bashar al assad's government. who the u.s. is now charging with war crimes, and donald trump's latest pick to carry out mass deportations is no stranger to the job. could he pull it off with the military's help? . dupixent is an add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. it works with your asthma medicine to help improve lung function. dupixent is not for sudden breathing problems and doesn't replace a rescue inhaler. it's proven to help prevent asthma attacks. severe allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for face, mouth, tongue or throat swelling, wheezing or trouble breathing. tell your doctor right away of signs of inflamed blood vessels like rash, chest pain, worsening shortness of breath, tingling or numbness in limbs. tell your doctor of new or worsening joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don't change or stop steroid, asthma, or other treatments without talking to your doctor. when you can get more out of your lungs,

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the extradition hearing for the suspect in the killing of the unitedhealthcare ceo. two big headlines here that luigi mangione is not waiving extradition and bail has been denied. let's bring in legal analyst danny cevallos. not waiving extradition, bail denied. what happens now? >> extradition is going to happen. the uniform extradition act requires that the governor must turn over a fugitive to the requesting state, which in this case is new york. although because pennsylvania has charged him with their own crimes, the lead charge being an f-2 forgery and an f-3 firearms charge, in theory, pennsylvania could keep him, but they're not going do that. it's up to the governor. governor shapiro will surely turn him over to new york, but the defendant himself can put up a fight. he can file what's called a writ of habeas corpus if he wants to oppose extradition. he can challenge the legality of his detention, but this is going to happen one way or another,

which is why most folks will waive extradition. you saw it in bryan kohberger, who was also apprehended in rural pennsylvania. waive extradition, get back to the requesting state and start the case, because i'm sure his attorneys told him it's a foregone conclusion, extradition is going to happen. >> danny cevallos, thank you for that. all right, the u.s. has charged two former high ranking syrian military officers with war crimes. accusing them of torturing prisoners, including american citizens. this is the first time the u.s. has brought charges of human rights abuses against bashar al assad's officials. signaling what could be the beginning of accountability for the notoriously brutal regime. joining us, a former syria and lebanon director at the white house for the first two years of the syria crisis, and host of, oh, my world. it's always good to see you. look, as we speak, one of the places that a lot of americans are interested in seeing or

hearing about syrian volunteers, searching through assad's infamous underground prisons. tens of thousands of people disappeared. no one knows how many were down there, were tortured, out' right executed. are these charges at least the beginning of accountability for assad's regime? is there any chance as well that he would ever have to personally answer for these horrific crimes? >> well, they're the beginning but they're a little late to be honest with you because these guys have been well known to the u.s. government for a very long time and germany actually, this process to prosecute these two individuals in particular started in germany, and it actually was the combination of an exhibit where photographs of these prisoners that had been taken and required to be taken by someone became an exhibit, and were exhibited all over the world back well before the pandemic, for example, and in 2018, germany moved to

prosecutor them. the move now by the united states, while very welcome, is very late and frustrating for those of us who felt the united states needed to lead more on policy toward syria. but that said, like you said, there is an effort now to seek accountability. when it comes to bashar al assad, he's been given, quote, humanitarian asylum by putin in ow. long ago, there was an arrest warrant for him. he's been declared a war criminal. he pretty much has to stay in moscow and he can vacation in north korea, but anywhere else, he's going to be caught. that said, i hope he faces retribution of some kind. i'm a big believer these thugs do eventually face their day in court. we see it with dictators all over the world, but in the meantime, it's going to be hard to grab them with all these individuals including the two that the united states are charging now are at large. >> the state department says syria's rebel leader, who is al jolani, is saying all the right things when it comes to respect

for human rights, minorities, the like, but he does lead a globally designated terror group. the united states has a $10 million bounty on his head. i wonder what you're watching for as the rebels turn from fighting, presumably, to governing? >> sure, simply put, i'm looking for actions to be backed behind these words because words only go so far. this is at the end of the day an islamist militia and designated as a terrorist organization, not just by the united states but by the united nations, which means that every member country all over the world technically also designated them as a terrorist organization and has sanctioned them. which is also important because that means that we legally, even if we wanted to, could not give any kind of funds, frozen funds, or humanitarian aid that would land in the hands of this group. listen, i'm a fact based person. i want to look at facts. the fact is that mohammed al jolani, his history is peppered with affiliations to terrorist organizations. he was an al qaeda leader, he

fought in iraq. he was imprisoned in iraq for three years for trying to fight u.s. forces. and then he was released and went back to syria. he was tied to isis and al qaeda. later on in 2017, he disavowed global terrorism and cut tied with al qaeda, which is great, except he ruled the northwest of syria as an islamist militia. they cracked down on dissent, they killed and detained and tortured human rights activists, and many women there fled because they were so afraid. and minorities as well. so while he's saying the right things, we have to watch how -- is he going to hold up his end of the bargain up, and also, the elections he's promised, are they going to be fair, and include representatives of all the opposition and minorities groups that are represented in syria. >> thank you so much. it's always good to see you. >> well, from a campaign promise to a day one priority, donald trump has tapped an i.c.e.

agency veteran to oversee the massive immigration policy shakeup he promised. the man who has been with immigration and customs enforcement for more than 20 years is someone one current i.c.e. official told us is intimately familiar with how the agency hunts fugitives. now with trump naming him acting director, it means he won't have to wait for a senate confirmation. i want to bring in nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley, also with us, former communications director and spokesman for congressman hakeem jeffries, michael hardaway, and former republican governor of ohio and msnbc political analyst, john kasich. geal yeah, this is donald trump's, one of his biggest priorities. one of the first things he wants to get done when he gets back into the white house, so what does it tell us he tapped this man for the job? >> this might be one of the first picks we have heard so far that isn't a total surprise, an outsider. he has 23 years of experience.

he's used to the way i.c.e. works and he'll be able to tell homan, the border czar, stephen miller, and trump what the limitations of i.c.e. are as they come up with big schemes. we heard tom homan say on dr. phil he plans on using tech companies to help with deportation, and they plan on going after chinese males, something we broke here first. this is a reality check, here's what they said about just what happens when you look at the ratios of officers versus migrants they want to arrest. >> i.c.e. only has about 8500 officers in the entire agency and less than 1,000 are assigned to fugitive operations who job it is to go out into the community and arrest people. because the overwhelming majority of undocumented immigrants have no interaction with the criminal justice system, they have no criminal offenses, that means to arrest them would require going out

into the community, finding them, and rounding them up. and in order to do that would require an enormous investment in personnel far beyond any law enforcement operation ever conducted in the united states history. >> and just to put that 8500 i.c.e. officers into context, there are about 8 million open cases that i.c.e. has now and about 400,000 migrants that are at large with criminal convictions. so the task is not a small one, and it's probably why he's looking at someone like vitello with that level of experience to make sure this job is done at least competently even though there will be logistical challenges. >> one of the challenges with the number of i.c.e. officers there are, governor, is this. the conversations that are being had about bringing in the military. look, you had national guard authority as governor of the state of ohio, as governors do. there are generals who are saying it will erode the trust of the american people to use

military on their own people. does that concern you? >> sure it does. but i would say a couple things. when you listen to this report we just heard, boy, this system has been broken and we have not been able to get it fixed. and it isn't because we didn't have some answers. it was because politics, you know, it ruled the day. everybody was afraid if they voted for something that involved anything close to letting people go, some sort of amnesty or some fine that you would pay in order to stay here, the whole thing is broken. so now we have 400,000 people with criminal records who have been convicted, and i think, chris, the public would want them to go. and it probably will be hard to get them. but they're going to pour a lot of money into this. then you have the training issue. you know, what's so amazing about this is we have come so close to being able to have an agreement on immigration. we just had a proposal here within the last year.

we came so close to being able to maybe not decide a path to citizenship, but a path for people who came in here illegally who have not committed any crime, who have worked in the community, that they would pay a fine, that they would be sanctioned. they would have to wait for a while before they could get themselves even on the path to citizenship, but these were all issues that were being debated by both sides, and at every single time, it broke down because of politics. now, you have this big, big problem. and i think most americans would say the ones who have criminal records and i would agree with this, they have to go. once you get beyond them, what do you do? do you get yourself in the situation where again there could be negotiations opened up and to figure out the most humane and the smartest thing to do? but let's face the facts. donald trump had this as a big issue. he's president. we have to see how he proceeds. but there are enormous logistical problems here, and we have to care about people.

>> yeah, and some of those people, michael, are dreamers. and donald trump has said he's ready to work with democrats on daca. among them, democratic senator dick durbin. take a listen. >> he said some positive things from my point of view. and he really challenged us on the democratic side to work with him when it came to the dreamers. i accept the challenge. name the time and place, mr. president. i'll be there. >> but worth reminding people, michael, that donald trump once tried to basically gut daca, so what would working with democrats on a plan even look like, do you think? can it be done? >> there's a serious appetite. if you take a step back and look at this, this could be overall effecting about 11 million people, so that's not going to work. logistically, i think it would be smarter for the white house to work with senate democrats and house democrats to get something done. senator durbin, this has been a priority of his for years. he would lead the effort in the

senate, and i think also house democrats would be amenable to working with the white house as well because we have to get something done to help dreamers in this situation. >> when you say something done, though, do you have a level of confidence? because there was a bill that both sides agreed on, right, that was more comprehensive than just dealing with dreamers. so do you have confidence in this political environment that this can get done? >> no. >> no, okay. well, we have heard from a number of current governors, governor. their concern is that -- >> i am more optimistic. i think there's a possibility. look, when dick durbin says there have been some positive ings trump has said that he's willing to meet, i think most americans would say, if you were brought here as a child, you have had a clean record, that we need to figure this out. i would look at these negotiations as an opportunity on dreamers to maybe broaden it a little bit and figure out, you know, where we go from here. and i appreciate the guest

saying no. but i'm not going to say no yet. let's see how that develops. what i would hope -- >> you were on the hill at a kinder, gentler time, governor. maybe it didn't feel like it then. >> i know politics. i know politics, and the dreamers are a big issue. when it gets to be a matter of things that are not fair, you know, the public is going to speak out. there's going to be a reaction. so i think there's a sense that the dreamers, and they have talked about the dreamers for years. we came so close so many times only to fall a little bit short. with trump behind it, maybe you can get it done. i know this, if i start a negotiation and say there's no point to it, then there's no reason to think about it. i have been involved in many negotiations with people that i haven't agreed with, but been able to figure something out. so let's not -- let's not give it all up yet. i'm not trying to be a cheery optimist. i'm just trying to be a realist about politically what might happen. sorry to go on. >> i think there's also a

difference between voters saying i want a secure border and saying, but people who already live here, have lived here a long time, who have jobs, who maybe pay taxes, who maybe are in college, need to go. so this is the start of a very long conversation. julia, john, and michael, thank you. that's going to do it for us this hour. make sure to join us for chris jansing reports every weekday, 1:00 to 3:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. our coverage continues with katy tur reports next. plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down. lactaid is 100% real milk, just without the lactose. delicious too. just ask my old friend, kevin. nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching the game. who's winning? we are, my friend. we are. do your dry eyes still feel gritty, rough, or tired?

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good to be with you. i'm katy tur. we have breaking news, new video of 26-year-old luigi mangione as he was taking into his extradition hearing in pennsylvania. we'll let you watch. >> clearly out of touch and an insult to the