good to be with you. i'm katy tur. the fbi director just resigned. christopher wray announced a moment ago that he will leave by the end of the current administration. three years before the end of his ten-year term. he made the decision public at a town hall for the fbi's workforce today, telling the

team he was leaving in order to avoid dragging the bureau deeper into a political fray. president-elect donald trump made it clear he didn't want wray to continue, saying he will nominate kash patel to take his place. which meant wray had no choice but to either step down or be fired by donald trump. joining us now, vaughn hillyard, ryan riley, jake sherman, and former fbi general counsel and former senior member of robert mueller's special counsel that investigated russian interference into the 2016 election, that's a mouthful. andrew weissmann. thank you for being with us. everyone. vaughn, when he talks about not wanting to drag the bureau into the political fray, what is he talking about? >> well, donald trump believe that is the fbi was in the political fray over the last seven years now. back in 2017 when he nominated him to replace james comey. it took just two years for him

to put scorn on to the work of chris wray after chris wray defended the work of the ig from the doj who said that the russia investigation into alleged collusions with donald trump and his campaign, that that investigation was warranted. immediately led in 2019 while still in white house, donald trump, to issue a statement questioning whether he had the capacity to serve at the top level of the fbi. several years later, you get to 2021. up on capitol hill after the january 6 attack, chris wray went up and called the domestic terrorism and the fbi began to work with the doj to investigate the attack. 2022. chris wray, the fbi, they went and got a court authorization to go and issue a search warrant and execute it on his mar-a-lago property because donald trump allegedly attempted to move classified documents and not turn them over to the fbi. so this was a long time coming here to this moment and chris

wray, somebody who he nominated himself, now for donald trump, is the face of the so-called deep state and he's going to try to get kash patel in not just to get rid of people like wray, but people like him. >> we expected something like this to happen because nominated kash patel to be the next leader of the fbi, which meant wray was going to have to leave one way or another. it's extraordinary in itself that an fbi director would be pushed out. usually they serve ten-year terms to keep them non political. i'm wondering what the reaction so far has been on capitol hill. >> reporter: well, it will make kash patel's road a little bit easier because republicans will now be able to say or they will say that they need an fbi director when donald trump comes into office. and that will be the excuse they use to confirm patel in my estimation. and listen, it's not completely

unprecedented. bill clinton did this back in the beginning of his first term. he replaced the fbi director, but obviously the issues are much deeper and much more personal to trump. i just think that based on our reporting now, our reporting up until today, including today after this announcement was made, kash patel is getting a pretty warm reception with most senate republicans because republicans have the majority and they hold the keys to patel being confirmed. >> why is he getting a warm reception from republicans? i understand trump's anger with the fbi, but why do republicans on the hill feel that kash patel is somebody they would feel comfortable confirming? >> reporter: couple of levels to this. number one is the surface level, which is that members of congress traditionally, not always, defer to a president in selecting his own cabinet and believe the president should have the advisers that he or she wants, every case in american

history, he wants. that's number one. number two, there's the obvious layer of people wanting to please donald trump. that's nothing new. we've seen that for the last decade. and number three, there's a bit of theatrics here when it comes to nominees. nominees say thing that is the audience, in this case, senators, want to hear. kash patel has said he is not going to go after donald trump's enemies and whether that's true or not, only time will tell. donald trump certainly would like him to go after his enemies. so there's a bit of theatre, of acting, of playing to the crowd. i think that's what every nominee, not just kash patel, is doing at the moment. >> andrew weissmann, what should be the expectation for a, i want to get to wray deciding to leave in a moment, but the expectation for what kash patel would do if he is confirmed at the fbi. donald trump was interviewed by kristen welker on "meet the press" over the weekend and he said he wasn't going to direct his fbi to do anything, but he

expected that the fbi would go on to these investigations. again, some of the people that investigated donald trump while he was in office and out of office. >> well, leaving aside donald trump's, you know, calling directly in to the kristen welker interview for what he wanted his administration to do and now saying i'm not going to do it. let's leave that to one side as to whether there should be any credibility to that. i think that with kash patel, there's two things. one is he has this adherence to views that are simply not backed up by hard evidence. just even if we're talking about his view of what happened on january 6th or what happened in the last election. and to this day, we still do not have any evidence. that is really goes to the heart of what the fbi and frankly anybody, whether in journalism, whether in politics, whether in

the executive branch should be governed by, which is facts. facts should matter. certainly with respect to an fbi director. and so that obviously would be of great concern to the men and women at the fbi, that the director may not be governed by facts and law. and the second is a simple lack of experience. there are 36,000 or so employees at the fbi. it is incredibly intense job. the prior occupant are people that have had deep experience in law enforcement. much, much deeper than kash patel. it's a, it is the leading law enforcement agency in the united states. it has an important national security role and it's no time to learn on the job. we saw that just to take one simple example, when hurricane katrina happened under the bush administration and there was

widespread view that the person in charge of fema was not ready for the job. well, you certainly don't want that to be a repeat at the fbi. so i think those are all the kinds of concerns that i think would play out in a confirmation hearing and for the american public. the final concern would be that kash patel apparently has said that he was there and was a witness to donald trump declassifying various documents that were subsequently found in mar-a-lago. i think there's substantial reasons that jack smith has to think that that is not the case. and seems to have alleged the opposite. it will be interesting to see when a report comes out about mar-a-lago, whether that is one of the issues. but i think it raises significance issues for the confirmation hearing with respect to whether kash patel is going to adhere to that view and even if he does adhere to it, katy, there will be an issue of

okay, even if that's true, is he saying that the president-elect is somebody who thought it was appropriate to declassify documents that involve, say the nuclear secrets of this country of our foreign adversaries. even if it were true that it was declassified, does that mean that that's sort of an appropriate thing to do. so this could be very, very sticky and messy in terms of substance, prior consistent or inconsistent statements and share confidence of this position, which is of such dire importance to the safety of the american public. >> let me play what kash patel has said he would want to change at the fbi. >> the fbi's footprint has gotten so fricken big and the biggest problem has come out of the intel shops. i'd shut down the fbi hoover

building on day one and reopen it the next day as a museum of the deep state. >> so, ryan, what's the reaction within the bureau today? >> a lot of concern. for sure. that's the number one thing on the list. you know either it's a question of how much of this was the podcast persona and how much of this is kash patel in reality. whether or not he's going to say different things. we've seen evidence of that as he goes up on the hill. i would say jake is correct that bill clinton did in fact push out an fbi director but in that case, it was somebody who had these severe and reality based ethical charges against him who was criticed by someone who some people might remember, william barr at the time during his first round as attorney general as well as janet reno when she came in. what you have then is that the two fbi directors who have been pushed out since watergate are

both pushed out by then president trump and now president-elect donald trump in a way. so it really is setting up this unique moment in american history. especially when you're looking at you know, the biggest thing that's been on the agenda for the fbi during these past nearly four years now. the biggest investigation in their entire history had to do with january 6th and getting the over 1,500 people arrested around charged with a case. that's where we could be looking at pardons coming for political violence just in a few weeks down the line depending on what donald trump decides to do about those january 6 cases. >> vaughn, i want to ask you about that. the pardoning of january 6 rioters, insurrectionists. who does donald trump want to pardon among that group? >> that is, they say they're going to take it case by case. that's what donald trump over the weekend with kristen suggested. that some of these individuals were put in the position where they had no option but to fight. but i think kind of like with kash patel's words, in the

coming months and years with the second trump administration, i don't think us as journalists have any choice but to work off of the words that individuals like trump and kash patel have spoken themselves about what their intent is. donald trump has called them patriots and warriors. matt gaetz, who he first nominated to be his attorney general, advocates for the release of the prisoners. at this point in time, it is difficult to not work under the assumption that he will seek to have these individuals pardons. just this week, there's more convictions taking place. this is an ongoing work here in realtime but for donald trump here, i think also a lot of this is going to be the implicit hand through the direct work of people like kash patel at the fbi within the doj because donald trump doesn't need to say too much more. he has already communicated to the campaign what he wants the individuals he is putting into

power to do. so i think until we hear otherwise in explicit statements of he does not believe that violent offenders that assaulted police officers should not be released from prison. our role here is to take him at his word until there's a suggestion otherwise. donald trump has said, posted on social media, images of the likes of nancy pelosi in orange jump suits. he has called for military tribunals of liz cheney and barack obama. and now people like kash patel are going to be in power where they can act an donald trump's wishes. it's not going to be any hypotheticals come january 20th. it's going to be actual efforts. >> kash patel is on capitol hill talking to senators. we just caught up with him in the halls. he said to our reporters, we look forward to a very smooth transition at the fbi and i'll be ready to go on day one. thank you. so jake, you've given us your

reporting at the moment as to whether kash patel is going to get confirmed. you said it looked pretty good. what about the others? hegseth and gabbard and the others that are on capitol hill trying to get senators to say yes to them? >> reporter: i think hegseth is getting closer to a lock. i think he will be confirmed based on our reporting. i think the attention is going to turn to gabbard and i think gabbard is going to be a tough pill to swallow for a number of senate republicans but that's something that's not entirely clear to us. she's just starting her meetings now. hegseth, to his credit, has made the rounds with a lot of senators. that's what every nominee does, so it's not much to his credit. he met with susan collins today in what was described to me as a very good meeting between the two. so i really do think hegseth's going to get confirmed. we haven't seen much of rfk yet. haven't seen much of some of the lower level nominees, but i would say gabbard, especially

with everything going on in the world, especially with syria and russia and iran, she's going to be someone that senate republicans are going to want to hear a lot from. >> jake sherman, ryan riley, vaughn hillyard, andrew weissmann, thanks so much. ahead, what evidence police now have, they say they have at least, regarding luigi mangione and the murder of brian thompson, the united ceo, united healthcare ceo. plus, what every day americans are saying needs to change in the healthcare industry. that anger toward this industry, it's not going away. and later, in syria, while some are desperately searching prisons and wards, others are ransacking assad's abandoned palace. what nbc news uncovered inside. we're back in 90 seconds. s uncoe we're back in 90 seconds just without the lactose. delicious too. just ask my old friend, kevin. nothing like enjoying a cold one while watching the game.

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♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. and try new vaposhower max for steamy vicks vapors. luigi mangione is putting up a fight in pennsylvania, refusing to waive extradition to new york and no longer cooperating with police. his lawyer said he hasn't seen any evidence mangione murdered brian thompson and that his client will plead not guilty. police say they have ample evidence including fingerprints connecting him to the crime scene, bullet casings from that scene that matched the gun that were found on his person, and more of mangione's own writing including a notebook where he allegedly planned the murder. saying quote, what do you do?

you whack the ceo at the annual parasitic bean counter convention. it's targeted, precise, and doesn't risk innocents. joining us now, msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin. he's not saying yes to being extradited to new york. why not? >> because as his lawyer said, there's no reason for them on the basis of the information presented so far to entrust that he deserves to be extradited. they are trying to elongate and complicate this proceeding while they get some more information, but in the meantime by fighting extradition, they now have 14 days to submit something called a writ of habeus corpus. that's fighting on the grounds that the d.a. in pennsylvania hasn't presented enough evidence to prove that he is the person being sought for that arrest warrant in new york. >> how long might this take? because the police say they have a lot of stuff.

this includes now fingerprints connecting him to the scene. wrappings, apparently wrappings and water bottle. the casings for the bullets that were also used in the murder found on his person. then they say they have notebooks in which he seems to take credit, or at least planned to do this. with that amount of evidence, what is your expectation for how long it might take to get him extradited to new york? >> the amount of evidence they have and how long it takes to extradite are two separate questions. the fact he is fighting it entitles him to some process and that process takes a while to play out. for example, he gets 14 days to make that filing and then new york has to send within 30 days, a governor's warrant from kathy hochul to josh shapiro. that's a different kind of warrant than we already have, but we expect he'll have a preliminary hearing sometime in the next ten, 12 days or so.

but then he'll get an extradition hearing. so it could take 30 days give or take. that's also what the doyle county district attorney told reporters yesterday after that initial hearing. >> thank you very much. within minutes of the shooting, people began to rage at a system that isn't working and a healthcare industry that puts profits ahead of patients. but instead of feeling heard by american leaders, many felt their anger was being willfully misconstrued. >> i am still watching the reactions of establishment democratic politicians to this united healthcare assassination and increasingly realize why we lost the election. i mean, just the totally missing the moment, missing the point, repeating all these empty platitudes like violence is never the answer. and instead of responding to all of the outpouring of sympathy and cynicism and outrage towards

our healthcare system, democrats spent no time speaking or even trying to understand, what is the rage and dissatisfaction that drives ordinary people to support a cold-blooded murderer? well, not only none of the problems get solved, but all them get actively worse. and that the only place to channel the rage is through the right's alternative. the right's presentation of an antiestablishment candidate in donald trump who will not solve any of the problems that people care about, but is the last protest vote that people have to register their disdain and contempt for a broken system. as long as democrats are seen widely to be the party that is the spokesperson for the system most americans despise and that events like this allow that reality to burst forth to the surface in a dramatic way, we will never recapture the

political discourse from the right. >> joining us now, congressman ro khanna of california. congressman, thanks for being here. just react to what that young man was saying about the system and about the rage that is being expressed online and the lack of acknowledgment to why people are so angry. >> it's possible to have two thoughts. one, that murder and taking human life is wrong. that we can have sympathy for a father of two sons. and also, to have a thought that being denied healthcare as repeatedly happens in this country for cancer treatment, for heart disease, for diabetes, is causing great anger. justified anger around america. and that we need to fix the broken healthcare system. we need to hold private insurance companies, hospitals, pharmaceutical companies accountable. we need to fight for medicare for all or at the at least fight

to make sure that doctor's prescriptions are getting filled and medicare would cover it. >> what i found so interesting about this story is that there were some out there that were trying to blame one political side for the rage that we're seeing online. they were trying to argue it's a bunch of democrats who were going online and cheering a shooter and raging against the system. we saw this from a couple of right wing media hosts and the comments under these episodes, those podcasts and what not were from a torrent of people all across the political spectrum saying you don't understand what's happening here. this is not about whether you're a democrat or republican. this is about americans, by and large, hating the healthcare system. because americans, by and large, red and blue, have had a bad experience at one point in their lives. maybe at more than one point, with this healthcare system. that it's not a red and blue

issue. it is an up and down issue. it is a very, very wealthy and everybody else. the very, very wealthy, you don't really have to worry about it and everybody else who has to fight with the healthcare industry to get basic coverage. it seems like every appointment or every bill. given that, have you heard any desire among your colleagues in congress across the board to really address there? to do something about this systemic issue that so many americans are fed up with? >> well, first of all, katy, you're absolutely right. bernie sanders, i still remember when he did a fox town hall and talked about medicare for all. got huge applause from a largely republican and independent audience. this is about all those folks who can't afford medicine. it's even about people who have insurance and they are routinely getting their claims denied. the reality is even if we haven't built the consensus for medicare for all, which i think

is the solution, you can do simple things. cap out of pocket costs, require private insurance to cover any claim medicare would. there are progressives who are pushing for this. i hope it could be bipartisan. one question i would love one of the right podcasts to ask donald trump, 20 years ago, he wrote a book where he said that he is for the canadian healthcare system. i think he understood back then how broken the system is and if he really cares about working people and middle class folks, will he fight for what he said was the best system? >> you know, i want to actually get a little bit further with you on the fixes you mentioned because i think there are people out there who would like there to be a better system but are still weary of a system like the canadian healthcare system or like some of the systems we're seeing in the u.k. where some people experience long waits for things like ct scans and are frustrated by that. and there are people who want better healthcare but who are worried that giving up private

healthcare is going to mean worse coverage cross the board. so you're saying is there a way to fix it from within. is there a way to make sure that private insurance does a better job at covering people. >> absolutely. first of all, just on medicare for all, you still could have supplemental private insurance and the reality is medicare would make every doctor in network and unlike britain, you would still have private doctors and nurses. it's just that everyone would be covered on medicare. but short of that, because we can't just overpromise. every time democrats get up, they're saying medicare for all. that's a long-term fight. why not at least have a simple law that says if a doctor prescribes something or says that you need some treatment and if medicare would cover it, then the private insurance companies should be, should have to cover it. you know, we have 1.4 million people in this country who are employed to determine whether to deny claims and we only have a

million doctors. that statistic should show how broken the healthcare system is. >> another topic for you. you have said you would be interested in joining doge, that government group that is going to be led by vivek ramaswamy and elon musk. the government efficiency group. why would you want to join it? >> well, i'm not wanting to join the doge caucus unless there was a commitment made to no cuts to social security, medicare, or medicaid. but on some issues like cutting defense contractors and adding more competition to the five primes, democrats should be open to working with elon musk and others if they are for reducing a bloated defense budget. we should be for reducing waste and keep an open mind in having that conversation. >> what about this news from elizabeth warren, back to healthcare, about dr. oz? she sent a letter to him on

tuesday asking about the advocacy he's made for the elimination of traditional medicare and also asking about his deep financial ties to private insurers. i believe was one of those was united. >> i think we need to be asking those questions, but ultimately, more than going after a person or, and obviously those should be in a confirmation hearing. what the american people want to know, what are your solutions? how are you going to help my family when my claims are being denied? how are you going to help save me from out of pocket costs? let's deal with medical bankruptcy. eliminating medical debt. let's figure out how we get more claims covered for american people. how we lower out of pocket costs. yes, we have to fight on the nominations, but one of the disconnects with the democratic party is we're somehow so focused on fighting within washington and people seeing their lives aren't getting better. we've got to focus on people and how we're going to improve their

lives. >> all right, congressman ro khanna, appreciate it. >> thank you. still ahead, we're going to continue this conversation after the break. talk about how you can walk and chew gum at the same time. plus, what nbc news found inside assad's abandoned and now ransacked palace in syria. now ransacked palace in syria. (♪♪) (♪♪) (♪♪) start your day with nature made. and try new zero sugar gummies. y'all see this, patrick mahomes is saying goodbye! patrick! patrick! people was tripping. where are you going!? he was actually saying goodbye to his old phone. i'm switching to the amazing new iphone 16 pro at t-mobile! it's the first iphone built for apple intelligence. that's like peanut butter on jelly...on gold. get four iphone 16 pro on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. and save on every plan versus the other big guys. what a deal.

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mass. they are causing a tremendous amount of suffering. >> so many people are using this moment to share their own horror stories about having to deal with health insurance companies. and my next guest argues this is an opportunity that we should embrace. deplore the violence and ask why it's happening, quote, this is not just about one ceo killing anymore than it was about one insurrection or one protest turned riot. it is about the deep condition of the country. the generational pessimism of our neighbors and kin. until we are talking about that every day, not just the individual desperate act, until we are thinking about how to fix it, we are just tap dancing around the thing. joining us now, publisher of the inc and msnbc political analyst, anan. it is a worthy conversation. >> can i say you're one of the only people who i've seen having

it in this form so thank you. >> i think that when you have a lot of people cheering violence in the way they have, you can deplore the cheering of the violence but you have to ask yourself why in the world do they feel good or okay with cheering it on and it's because there is so much burning anger over the system in this country. broadly speaking, but also very much about healthcare because it's something that everybody deals with every, not every day maybe, but for some people, every day, but at some point in their lives. they get denied a claim or a bill they can't understand and they're put into a financially dire situation for healthcare that they need. and so it's something that cuts across the political spectrum. you're talking about how there is a way to condemn the violence and also address the problem and by addressing the problem, addressing the anger, you're actually going to stop more violence from happening. >> you know, absolutely. when you look at an act like

this, less anybody caricature our conversation, it is very clear that assassination is not how you get change. it's not how you get the world you want. it's immoral, doesn't work. end of story. but if that's the end of the analysis, we have a problem. and when you have, as you say, i'm glad you played those social media videos because it shows not just what people on cable are saying -- >> it's a conversation everybody is having. i walk down the street, i hear people talking about it. oftentimes social media conversations are niche. this one is broad. >> this is the defining challenge in the live of millions of people, maybe tens of millions of people. if not defining, almost everybody else. your health. whether you can have a child or not and not have a $50,000 bill by accident. whether something breaks, you can get it fixed. i know so many people who actually have decent insurance,

have some financial cushion if something goes wrong and still things happen to them where a mysterious $100,000 bill for a shoulder surgery, friend of mine told me this happened the other day. $100,000 bill with insurance. >> i got a $90,000 bill for emergency appendectomy insurance refused to cover. >> the reality in this country is if you kill people with a gun, it is very obvious to everybody what's going on and you're rightly deplored and we should deplore that. if it is a more systemic kind of killing, as your social media person was saying, if people are being killed through pdf files and through claim denial letters and through a deliberate practice of saying no to a certain form of care, that you know you're going to end up granting but if you say no, 80% of people will lose steam and

not appeal successfully and you'll only have to give it 20% of those people and you factor that into your balance sheet. if that is not an incidental thing that happens or bad apples, that's actually how you make money because the health insurance industry doesn't exist in other countries because they just take care of each other as part of the society. you cannot expect to live in a society in which that rage goes nowhere. and we have to deplore violence then be curious about where it's coming from. >> the gentleman that i led into congressman ro khanna with, he understands this is part of the reason or a big reason why donald trump got elected. because so many americans are fed up with the system that is no longer working for them. that they chose the party and the person that promised to change things. instead of the party that was being, that was seen as the defender of the status quo. there's been a lot of analysis about this. chris murphy's talked about it. bernie sanders has talked about it.

people have said this is the democrats' fundamental problem. do you see this as something that is actually going to get addressed by the republicans? they promise a lot of big change. is what you're seeing from who donald trump is so far surrounded himself with, are these folks who are going to help people out with a predatory insurance system? >> unless rfk jr.'s raw milk deliveries are going to cure all these conditions, no. i don't think so. no help is going to come from these republicans, but you're right that the reason many people turn to them is the desperation. i think when you and i or anybody else here as a conversation, it's about one issue at a time. healthcare, the border. i think there's a more generalized political emotion in this country. a lot of what i write about is the political emotions underlying these issues. if you go beneath the trans fight right. beneath the border fight or beneath what was january 6th

about. a very common political motion is a sense of defenselessness. i would argue it is the common culture that unites 80 to 90% of americans. that one's hearing you. there's a feeling that we don't get you. we don't reflect reality. there's a feeling that people with money don't care. people who run companies don't care. your employer doesn't care. it is not neatly mapped on to therefore either the left of right. on to issues. it is a generalized pessimism about being heard and being helped and that is the most dangerous thing for a society because then people wrongly but predictably will start going it alone. >> it's been festering for a while. i wrote in my 2016 book about donald trump's first one that part of what fueled it is this feeling of helplessness, defenselessness, lack of agency. it felt like you were screaming a t at the top of your lungs in a

room full of people wearing headphones and that is still the predominant feeling. it might not be the one everyone vocalizes, but it's the one people feel in this country. they don't feel they have control. social media is taking advantage of them. ceos are taking advantage of them. "the new york times" opinion page called it the new gilded age that we're living through. it does certainly feel like that. thank you so much for coming in. i could spend the whole hour doing this, but there's other news to get to. thank you. >> thank you for having the conversation. still ahead, the hunt for the missing across syria as families search morgues. what they're uncovering. plus, rupert murdoch lost his court battle to change his family trust. what that could mean for the future of his empire, including fox news. could mean for the future of his empire, including fox news wealth management skills in the biz. tech asst: actually i'm seeing something from schwab. (uh-oh) producer : yeah, schwab lets you invest and trade on your own.

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with the prisons now open, syrians who have not yet been reunited with lost loved ones, they're now looking through the morgues. stewart ramsey visited one morgue in this exclusive sky news report. we're going to warn you though, these images may be disturbing to some viewers. >> reporter: from the gloomy interior of the morgue's refrigeration room, a body is wheeled on the gurney towards the examination area. they're trying to identify who the dead man is.

all they know is that he has been murdered. the dead here are all victims of assad's regime. across damascus, there's a desperate search for the missing. there's no authority. distraught family members are searching the morgues themselves. they've opened body bags to take pictures of the pictures of the victims. beside them, the refrigerator door has been open. stacked inside, over 30 people. assigned a number. the identity mark of the unclaimed dead. the unknown victims. nearby, they open frigerated lockers looking for bodies. praying they would find who they've lost, often over a decade. and perhaps for them, final closure at last.

it's happening all over the city. they're coming to morgues where they know people who have been tortured to death. their bodies have been brought here and identify. some have only seen their loved ones on social media. they're coming here to see if they can collect the body. when the bodies are identified, the families can take them away. the dead sometimes placed on the knees of family waiting in the car. it is absolutely chaotic. the people are desperate for news, any news. people struggle to get inside to catch a glimpse of the dead. it is simply put, desperate stuff. >> desperate, indeed. joining us now from damascus, richard engel. what was it like there today? >> reporter: well, that was an excellent report from stewart ramsey and captures the spirit

here. people don't know what happened to their loved ones. this regime was so brutal, so secretive and then fell so suddenly. people are trying to catch up. for the last decade during the decade of civil war, about, well, half a million people may have died. hundreds of thousands at the very least. many of them are still missing. people went to the prison where i was yesterday and it's the most notorious prison in this country. searching that perhaps there were hidden cells there or subterranean chambers. as you saw in that report, people went to the morgue to see if there were any unclaimed bodies. i saw very similar things happen in iraq after the fall of saddam hussein. there was this moment of exploration where people were looking for answers. looking for missing loved ones. the same thing is happening here.

the veil of secrecy has been peeled back. people are feeling yes, nervous, because of this new government that's still in formation led by a former al qaeda commander, but also a sense that right now, they finally have the opportunity to ask questions. to go to places that they couldn't go to before. like the morgues. like the intelligence headquarters. like the prisons. >> richard, you've covered the region for so long -- >> reporter: as you can hear a little bit, katy -- you might be able to hear in the background. there are still moments of gunfire here that you hear periodically throughout the day. they just lifted the curfew. there used to be a curfew in place so they're trying to give a sense of normal life here. a sense of stability, but you do still hear gunfire or the odd

explosion as the rebel government are looking for members of the old regime, looking for people they consider to be war criminals. >> richard engel reporting for us in damascus. a new world today. thank you very much. and coming up, rupert murdoch's attempt to blow up the family trust has failed in court. what it means for the future of his empire, including fox news. his empire, including fox news y swiffer wet. i pop on a pad and get a mop-like clean floor in just one swipe. wow! and for hair, try swiffer dry cloths. the fluffy cloths pick up hair like a magnet. swiffer. you'll love it or your money back. liberty mutual customized my car insurance so i saved hundreds. with the money i saved i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. oh! right in the temporal lobe! beat it, punks! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪

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rupert murdoch lost his court case to get full control of his media empire to his son. joining us now is the former managing editor of the sunday times in london. it is really good to see you again. rupert murdoch was trying to change the trust which was split evenly among his four adult children to make it so there would be a single owner of his media empire and that was going to be lockland. why was he trying to do that? >> it is a very unhappy family and they are all a billionaires. an unseemly site of five billionaires slumping over what would happen when murdoch guys. it feels like they're waiting for rupert to die and raise things to their own preference

so there is definitely a center of this anxiety around fox news because of all of the elements of the empire. it is spread across several continents. the one thing that matters most to rupert seems to be fox news. his eldest son, lachlan, has been a custodian of the character of fox news. he's the one that has allowed it to become as toxic as it is and on the other side of the argument, you've got the younger son, james, who wants nothing to do with fox news. to him, fox news can terminate the rest of the business. so if the trust is left as it was, which it looks like it will now be, when rupert dies, the power is split evenly among

the four, so the other three, james, elisabeth, and prudence -- prudence has been a bit of a recluse. elisabeth is very successful as a tv producer, so she doesn't need anything from the old man. james has set up businesses of his own and he is the one on whom this moral decision descendents. can fox news still be viable? in other words can it be this in warmish cash cow that it is to the business if it is detoxified? in other words if you stop fox news from being fox news. rupert believes strongly the only way fox could continue the same poisonous path as it always has been over the last 10 or so years is to leave it in the custody of lachlan. he has this whole scheme of changing a trust set up in 2006

the hand the dominant power over. it's very obscure. they have delivered an acknowledgment of murdoch, saying what he was trying to do was unprincipled and unfair. he made kind of a moral judgment which was interesting in the sense that he was talking about the money and morality of the situation, trying to upend something that was agreed long ago. >> could there be a change in direction at fox news when rupert murdoch dies now that all four children will have an equal share in running the company? >> do they carry on with it or sell it? would james want to sell it? my feeling is it is worth between 13 and $15 billion to

sell its. it would be nice to james, elisabeth, and prudence to collect the money and get rid of the burden to what fox news does to the reputation of the empire and i think it is impossible to tell exactly what will happen after murdoch dies but that is probably the most likely path. and then what happens to lachlan? lachlan has never acted outside his own father's will. elisabeth had wills of her own but lachlan has been a good, obedient son. >> clive irving, thank you for joining us. that will do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york.