it would be nice to james, elisabeth, and prudence to collect the money and get rid of the burden to what fox news does to the reputation of the empire and i think it is impossible to tell exactly what will happen after murdoch dies but that is probably the most likely path. and then what happens to lachlan? lachlan has never acted outside his own father's will. elisabeth had wills of her own but lachlan has been a good, obedient son. >> clive irving, thank you for joining us. that will do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york.

we come on the air with the breaking news. christopher wray has announced his resignation. he made the announcement at an all hands meeting hours ago saying he will leave when the biden administration comes to an end, saying this, after weeks of careful thought, i've decided the right thing for the bureau is for me to serve until the end of the current administration in january and then step down. my goal is to keep the focus on our mission, the indispensable work you are doing on behalf of the american people every day. in my view, this is the best way to avoid dragging the bureau deeper into the fray, while reinforcing the values and principles that are so important to how we do our work. it remains to be seen whether the fbi can even attempt to avoid being dragged deeper into the fray, as wray seems to be suggesting or whether his resignation will plunge deeper into uncertainty leaving the workforce without its leader. wray have three years left on his term.

it was put in place to ensure departures don't line up with the end of a current administration. independents from the fbi and politician politics. donald trump approved of him quite a bit. here is what he said about wray in 2018. >> having christopher wray is unique and different. you need the opposite and he is moving step-by-step and you can see a whole, new, very proud fbi. i think the justice department will end up being -- it is all going to happen. it will all work out but i try to stay as uninvolved as i can. >> wasn't true at the time and certainly isn't now, but what changed? the new york times says it was the bureau's scrutiny of trump that almost certainly cut short wray's tenure and here is what he told kristen welker this past sunday. >> i can't say i'm thrilled with him. he invaded my home.

i'm suing the country over it. he invaded mar-a-lago. i certainly cannot be happy with him. >> the facts are this, the fbi conducted a court ordered search of mar-a-lago after months of wrangling in which the national archives and the department of justice repeatedly tried to get back sensitive national security documents and secrets from donald trump, but the facts were revealed by the work of the fbi that so enraged donald trump that he has now appointed a loyalist, a man named kash patel, to run the fbi. kash patel's road to confirmation is lined by red flags by his colleagues including a dire public warning from former trump national security advisor john bolton, who writes this in today's wall street journal. too many of mr. trump's personnel selections evidence

his search for personal fealty, not loyalty to the constitution. kash patel's nomination as director of the fbi squarely fits this pattern. to resolve questions over his integrity and fitness, a full field fbi investigation as prior nominees have undergone is warranted. with more facts available and less rhetoric, the result will be clear. i regret i didn't fully discern mr. wray -- mr. patel's threat immediately but we are now all fairly warned. breaking news about chris wray is where we start today with some of our favorite experts. former cia director and msnbc senior national correspondent john is here. also joining us, assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi, msnbc senior national correspondent analyst frank is here and former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the justice department, msnbc

legal analyst mary mccord is here. also joining us, fair -- former chairman and director is here. let's start with you. leaving at the end of the current president's term is the opposite of what the 10 year service window is about. we have covered the pressures on the fbi, but i wonder what it is like for the workforce to see their leader leave. >> i think it is going to be very difficult and i'm very disappointed that wray decided to resign. i think director ray carried out his responsibilities with integrity and professionalism during difficult and challenging times the last seven years. he was appointed to a ten-year term and accepted a 10 year term. right now his decision to leave tends to legitimize what donald trump is doing in terms of

pointing to someone else. i don't think it would be any problem if he stayed in place and had donald trump remove him. that certainly is a president's prerogative. even though there is a 10 year term on the role, but by doing this, i do think it is going to leave the men and women and the fbi some of whom are wondering what their futures will look like particularly if someone like kash patel is actually going to get her the confirmation process. although i respect director wray and i'm sure his decision was based on how he evaluated the impact on the bureau and the workforce, i think that was a decision that should not have been made at this point and he should have stayed through the transition to the new administration. >> frank, any viewer of the program knows that i spend a lot of time trying to understand a country's lurch

towards autocracy. it is not a light switch. it happens slowly. one of the most wanting things is obeying in advance. i don't know if i've seen in terms of the facts reported to me so far i don't know if i've seen a more crystallized example of that then someone atop an agency whose workforce, whose rank and file workforce is under current menacing threat and disdain from an incoming president and his most prominent supporters. even if chris wray's firing is viewed as eminent, why not shay -- stay as a show of support to the workforce? >> why not, indeed. i share john brennan's discouragement and i said publicly that i hope that wray stays until he has to be fired, until trump has to fire him.

i would be proud to be fired by donald trump and the fbi probably expected that to happen in that way. while we can't get inside chris wray's head, i think this resignation or announcement of the resignation tells us more about donald trump than about chris wray. i think it gives us a look into the future here because we've got an fbi director who felt compelled to resign before the end of his 10 year term because a president-elect and nominee for fbi director are saying they want to turn the fbi into some kind of agency that pursues political enemies for the president. nominee for attorney general has used the exact same language as well and i think when we look at why there is dismay with chris wray from donald trump, we've got to look at this house of cards that

everything is based on. you have the audacity to inject facts into a perfectly good conspiracy theory, which is that somehow the fbi raided mar- a-lago, did it without, you know, without a judge's approval, without the processes. they did not. in fact, ironically the thing that upsets donald trump so much, chris wray made a deliberate choice to stay out of the mechanisms, the deliberations. you will recall when the washington post reported there was this loud, tough meeting between doj executives and washington field office executive that the fbi over whether to search mar-a-lago or not. chris wray responded. i was in there that meeting. i stayed out of that meeting. that was on purpose. he's not getting into the weeds . he allows the process to take place as if it were just you or me storing documents at our

homes. the other criminal sin in trump's mind was when chris wray went to capitol hill and said what happened on january 6th was domestic terrorism. those two things are what think i caused donald trump to say i am inserting a guy that doesn't give a -- about the constitution or rule of law. >> frank, let me show you the verbal onslaught that the men and women of the fbi have endured and with no reason to believe this will abate, but this is how trump's allies describe the search of mar-a- lago. >> this is crap and it will not stand. >> the idea you're an fbi agent and you're given a warrant to serve against president trump that you know is a hat trick job -- >> they rated our president's home. there is no going back from this, everybody.

>> again, none of those statements are rooted in fact. the fbi workforce does not have the ability to set the record straight or chose not to. i suppose they could have if they wanted to but every person seems to over learn the lessons of the last person trump fired and chris wray was infamously or famously mum when he spoke on capitol hill and did defend the bureau's mission. those attacks are not against chris wray specifically but against the workforce and i wonder how the fbi are feeling today, frank, if you have heard from any of them. >> oh, i have. yes, i have. first let me share with you that just this week, two

assistant directors have announced their retirements. they were eligible for requirement -- retirement. the private sector security world will be much better. the resumes are all out there, particularly at headquarters and the executive ranks but the field now is rather nervous. they are wondering if this is -- they are hoping this isn't -- these changes, this craziness will not affect place openings and closings in the fields. the attorneys trump will appoint will somehow be really nice people loyal to the constitution and rule of law. i hope they are right. i fear they are wrong. i think the changes we have heard today are just the beginning. the guardrails are not there. people think there are all kinds of laws that will prevent illegal spying and wiretapping. no, not really. there are attorney general guidelines that came out after

j. edgar hoover's abuses but we just learned this week, nicolle, of a report that said during the trump term they inappropriately obtained the records of two sitting members of congress and 43 staffers. guess who else. kash patel. they did it wrong. they did it inappropriately. they didn't follow the rules. they've done it before and will do it again in droves. kash patel, the nominee to replace wray, had to be granted criminal immunity by the department of justice so that he would talk about the mar-a- lago documents. i'm not sure he will pass the background investigation. >> well, you bring us, frank, to john bolden's warning today in the wall street journal. let me read some of that to you, mary mccord. quote, in neither case was he in charge of a director during

my tenure as national security advisor or thereafter as he contends with his memoir and elsewhere. he reported to senior directors in both cases and had to find responsibilities. characteristic of the resume inflation we had detected when mr. trump pressed him on us. we found he exaggerated his role in cases he worked on as a justice department lawyer before joining committee staff. given the sensitivity of the nsc's credibility or reliability would ordinarily disqualify any job applicant. mary, this doesn't ever look like a single sort of conflict between two former trump national security officials. let me show you what former secretary of defense, one of trump's national security officials, had to say about kash patel. >> we were trying to rescue an

american in west africa who had been captured by terrorists and whose life was in danger. we sent our special operators abroad to rescue that person. they were in the air. we had launched them on the premise we had airspace clearance into that country to conduct the operation. it was information given by allegedly kash patel to tony todd a who worked for me in osd policy and found out hours later before we were about to cross into that territory that it was not true. the state department had not gotten that clearance. for a moment in time there it jeopardized the mission. >> mary, your reaction to all of this? >> such a concrete example, right? i have no personal knowledge of that incident but just taking the former defense secretary at his word.

think about the ramifications. you have someone who our allies abroad very well may not trust because of that incident and because of other things such as his claims that donald trump engaged in massive declassification of science -- some of the highest level national security information, classified information just before his departure from office, something most people don't believe is true and was contested by others within the white house, including the white house counsel's office. that is how carelessly he felt about national security secrets, sources, methods, relations with our allies, our nuclear weapons program. those are things he suggested donald trump had used mental telepathy to declassify. i think the former defense secretary's comments should really cause a whole lot of concern among not only the american public but members of the senate whose responsibility

is to confirm the president's nominee for fbi director. i would like to reflect back on the 1970s, the senate judiciary committee that engaged in the hearings that resulted in the passage of this 10 year nonrenewable tenure for the fbi director. there were two goals and both went toward never, ever being a partisan fbi director part of the president's own, you know, personal entourage, if you will. the two goals were to insulate the fbi director through that nonrenewable term through political pressure by the president or senior officials in the executive branch, eliminate any favor for maybe a second appointment or another term, and secondly, to prevent the fbi director from becoming too independent, too nonresponsive, too powerful as many have said and believe

hoover had become. so those things are completely -- those goals are completely undermined by not only director wray resigning before he is forced out of that position, and i do respect the director, i just disagree as to your other guests today, frank and john, and that would completely undermine appointing someone like a kash patel and by the senate confirming him. someone like him. the senate has to take this extremely seriously. >> michael steele, i will let you in. do you think they will? >> probably not. i think there is nervousness challenging donald trump beyond matt gaetz. there will be a lot of handwringing and a lot of, oh, let me take close account of what the nominee has said about

this, whether kash patel or if they are someone else. the reality of it is the senate probably doesn't want to exercise his independent constitutional responsibilities by saying to the president which they should be saying now, not waiting until you get to the inauguration. not waiting until you get into the process of actually having to hear it but saying to the president now, mr. president, we've got you. we love you but you can't send us anything like this. we are going to advise you not to do this. we will not consent on these three. tulsi gabbard, kash patel, and hegseth, but send a someone we can pass with no noise and no drama. trump's not going to do that

because he wants the noise. he wants the drama. he loves the conflict and he wants to test just how loyal you are and that is the thing, nicolle. every day is another test of loyalty. that is the thread that runs through all of this. every day is another test. every moment is another opportunity for donald trump to hear you say something, not respond the way you think you should, or even look on your own tv, right? for him to go, do you know what? i'm just not feeling that person anymore. everyone is more concerned about that than they are about the very things that we have heard from, you know, our guests here today in terms of what this moment means. i agree director wray should not have resigned. he should have stayed in the job and said , fire me. i will stand as a guard at the portal for the many men and

women who serve in this building and around the country and we are not the personal puppets of the whims of a particular president or presidential nominee. but what we have seen, last point, is this has been a very interesting transition from my perspective because i've watched official washington including this white house treat trump as if he is already president. >> yes. >> he's off doing foreign trips, having meetings. joe biden is just sitting there in the white house or in delaware or wherever putting out this, that, or the other thing. or when he does engage as we saw with the syria episode this weekend it's like, okay, what is donald trump doing? this is a problem we have gotten to the point we just embrace all of this as normal trump stuff. we're back in this world again

four years later and here we are. >> it's the opposite of how president obama governed between election day and 2016 and donald trump facing inauguration in 2017. i need all of you to stick around. there is so much more to cover this hour. we will stay on this story and look at the relationship between donald trump and his own appointee to lead the fbi after he fired christopher wray came to be so dysfunctional to the point where wray ties his tenure to joe biden's and leaves at the end of joe biden's presidency. one of those reporters who cover that for a long time will join us. plus, later in the broadcast, pete hegseth was on capitol hill today. the man faces serious allegations of sexual assault, mistreatment of women, and fox sources suggest he has problems with drinking and financial

mismanagement as well. resistance against that guy seems to be dissipating. we will look more closely on why that is happening and what that says about the senate republicans and their ability to withstand any pressure at all from the maga republican movement. all of that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a break. i've been worn by celebrities, athletes, and world leaders. but i've always felt most comfortable up here, with the folks that made me who i am. i'm right at home, out here on the land. and i'm in my lane on the shoulder of the interstate. because this is where i come from. i've been showing up here for nearly 200 years. and i can't wait to see what's next. hats off to the future. nothing runs like a deere™

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been on us and on doing what's right for the fbi. >> that was the moment it happened when fbi director christopher wray announced earlier today his resignation at an all hands meeting this afternoon. donald trump constant complaints about christopher wray date bake -- back to 2018, a year after trump first nominated chris wray to be fbi director. some reporting i worked on with my colleagues at the found this. quote, trump has criticized wray as another figure in the justice department who is not protecting his interests and is out to undermine his presidency. trump is in the worst mood of his presidency and his calling friends and allies to vent about chris wray. trump frequently tweeted about the russia probe and has more than once criticized the justice department, fbi, and by

name but until now the president has been cautious about publicly criticizing the person he appointed after firing former fbi director james comey. he's increasingly grouping wray with sessions, deputy attorney general rob rosenstein, and the russia investigation, subjects of relentless criticism from the president. that reporting from the way way back machine matched 1000 times over by investigative reporter msnbc contributor who knows the trump story better than just about anybody. carol, i think we need a new way of talking about news that is shocking when it's norm busting and clear politics but it's not surprising because it's donald trump. i will let you try to think about what that is today. this decision by wray to leave the agency perhaps under the most direct and scathing personal attacks where trump holds the most desire for

personal revenge describes mar- a-lago as an invasion of his home. i wonder if you have any reporting or any sense of what wray's resignation felt like today for the workforce in the fbi. >> reporter: you know, wray is in large measure respected a great deal in the department of justice which obviously is the parent organization of the fbi. some agents have not loved christopher wray of which you were a greater more public face defending them against claims that they are, you know, weaponized tools unfairly used against donald trump. they would argue over and over again their investigation actions involving donald trump were more than necessary. in fact critical to national security, particularly when classified records were being hoarded by donald trump when he was outside the presidency at a

palm beach, you know, basically winter club and keeping them in a shower or his closets, or his personal office. those steps were completely warranted, yet agents have felt this pain that they have been attacked personally as politically motivated when they know they weren't and they were basing their investigative actions on the law. as for chris wray's resignation, we are told by sources he agonized over what to do because he had always tried to avoid getting fired by donald trump, who threatened over and over again, as you noted at the beginning, but especially with intensity in 2019 and 2020, kept threatening to fire him, and was essentially protected by then attorney general bill barr who joked with colleagues that he was a heat shield for chris wray and he took aurora

of donald trump as president to shield chris wray from the end of a firing squad. so many cabinet level members tried to avoid. wray was agonizing the last several days about doing this, nicolle, because he decided not to tempt what he fully expects will happen on the part of donald trump, which is a very public and unpleasant firing. the odds of that not happening were increasingly small to the point of being decimal. >> to what end though, carol leonnig? why not stand there and defend the work as opposed to leaving like it looks like the workforce did something wrong? >> reporter: wray's comments today were he didn't want to

drag the bureau into the fray, a political war, and there would be another numerous set of headlines about the firing of chris wray but i put this in the context of how hard chris wray try to avoid being fired the first time around with donald trump and that is a painful experience to go through. many secretaries at the time told me one of their great feelings of success was not to have been fired by tweet as secretary of state was, to not have to face that public kind of humiliation and dressing down and also i would add for viewers that in practical matters, donald trump was not going to allow chris wray to remain as fbi director, whether kash patel made it through the confirmation process or not. he was all but certain to insert

a temporary loyalist into that position and there seemed to be no chance chris wray would stand one way or another, so what are you protecting other than, you know, the principal, i suppose, of saying i am a 10 year term servant and if you want me, you have to come and get me. >> frank figliuzzi, is there any palpable difference standing on a principle at the time they have smears from a very powerful ecosystem on the right? >> first i think would be more significant and powerful if chris wray stayed on and caused trump to fire him. with regard to trying to protect the fbi from getting caught up once again and having trump whistle about the bureau as he fires

chris wray, there is nothing we haven't heard. nothing. go ahead, blast away for another month. go right arm ahead. i don't see it. that's not resonating with me. i can confirm what carol said. during the trump term wray came into the office every darn day and wondered if he was getting fired and he was overly concerned about getting fired. so what? you've got a lot of money from your life in the private sector. it's not like you will fill out a job application where it says have you ever been fired from a job? he doesn't need the job, right? he's got this sensitivity about being fired and i'm not seeing the connectivity to protecting the men and women from the bureau. if anything, it would have empowered the men and women. people told me, look, this was an inspiring town hall. i've read through the transcript and i lost count of the number of times he mentioned he rule of law.

there is messaging and there that we will have change but what will never changes you will follow the law, right? that was throughout his talk today. >> the rule of law and the constitution need human beings to enforce them. they are not documents that walk around and tell kash patel what to do. carol leonnig, i'm always so grateful to have your reporting . thank you so much for joining us today. another break for us and we will dive back into some of the smears chris wray successfully knocked down and try to set the record straight on in some congressional testimony. i will show you that after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down.

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the idea i am biased against conservatives seems somewhat insane to me given my own personal background. as to how we are approaching our work of protecting the american people and upholding the constitution, it starts with me with having to have emphasized our folks over and over again in everything we do that we need to do the right thing in the right way and that means following the facts wherever they lead no matter who likes it. >> director john brennan, to believe wray was right to step down as to believe that message didn't reach anyone and i don't believe that. every time christopher wray says these words your description that i'm biased against certain conservatives seems insane. it is insane to suggest that christopher wray -- i have been a big believer for a long time but the idea the fbi had any semblance of a mission left was equally insane and that the idea that christopher wray

couldn't have done good by saying over, and over, and over again how we approach our work by protecting the american people and upholding the constitution starts with me having emphasized to the folks over and over again in everything we do we need to do the right thing in the right way and that means following the facts no matter where they lead. that is not hyperbole. that is simply using her position of power to defend the work done by people who risk their lives every day in a climate where people on the right people are calling them. >> right. christopher wray had every right to call them insane. doing the right thing is what principle is all about and i must say i disagree with some of carol leonnig's comments. leaders of these institutions that keep our country safe and secure really need to stand on

principle because if they don't stand on principle their workforce won't stand on principle and you want to have a bureau that respects the rule of law and does the right thing. being fired by donald trump is not an act of public humiliation, it is a badge of honor, quite frankly. over the seven years, he has demonstrated he will do what he believes is right and what the bureau needs to do to keep us safe and secure. donald trump now is following the authoritarian's playbook which is to put individuals of tremendous loyalty and fealty to him into editions of influence and intelligence, law enforcement, judicial, and other branches of government. he wants individuals who are malleable, who will be his attack dog to go after his enemies, those rivals he sees pose a threat to him and that is why i am so disappointed director wray decided to step down and i believe a lot of individuals within the bureau

feel the same way. it is a great challenge and great worry about what the bureau will have to do or be directed to do under a trump administration. director wray cand let the chi fall where they may. >> you know, michael steele, political people sometimes get from a to b the consequences faster than anyone else and you get to put whatever you want in positions of power. that is the whole essence of an election. donald trump won and he gets to put whatever he wants in these jobs. they check to see if the system is broken. john bolton made clear he didn't approve of donald trump and never advocated for the alternative on the ballot, kamala harris. has written very eloquently and powerfully speaking out about the dangers of kash patel but the thing that is broken is not

trump picking kash patel. >> right. >> what's broken is nobody has confidence that a full background check will happen by the fbi, a full investigation, and that nobody has confidence the senate republicans will digest that information and act on it. that is where it's broken and where we don't spend enough time pressing and exposing the failures. >> oh, you bring palpitations to my heart because that is exactly where i wanted to go with all of this. when you take it in the fullest context of what director wray said today in his stepping down, and i solemnly applaud the idea and his continual emphasis and use of the rule of law and principle . those are words! the problem we have had nobody

in washington wants to do, stand on principle. that means standing firm in the face of the onslaught from maga and trump. that means flipping them the bird for once and telling them to kiss your ass. come back to me. let's do this. i am the director of the fbi. you want to dance? let's dance. i'm here. you want me gone? fire me. that is the principle position. the unprincipled position is what trump is doing. and the way he is doing it. it's just, i don't know what the hell is wrong with folks in this town. all of the bravado and all of the crap they spew out they cannot find a microphone and stand in front of it and tell donald trump to take a leak. i don't care if you're coming in as the next president.

you are not going to do this. i have a term. i'm in office for 10 years and i've got 3 left. you want me? come at me. that's what america also needs, not this placating, oh, you know, the economy is tough and gas is more expensive. inflation -- yes, those things are important but this piece is equally important from the political leadership and from the elected leadership and from those who serve in leadership in institutions like the fbi, like the department of justice, and elsewhere throughout our government. if you think you have been tested already, you don't know what the hell is about to hit you upside the head when they open project 2025 playbook and start laying out a few things. >> yeah. >> that, for me, it is what is

so disappointing. he didn't have to do it. there are folks out here willing to stand with him in that moment to support him if he said come at me. >> i want to bring mary and frank back into the conversation but a quick break first. so much more to get to. don't go anywhere. we will all be right back. hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. delectables lickable treat.

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something we haven't talked about yet, national security and residential transitions are

typically vulnerable moments for our country. i am wondering, mary mccord, with the active threats we know about from iran directed at donald trump and the things we have no idea about my design, what is your level of concern with wray's departure timing with the biden administration? >> well, it raises serious concerns. we talked earlier this hour about kash patel and mistakes made. one of the things we did not talk about is him spreading can series -- conspiracy theories and a generally sixth violence. that was a national security threat and this accumulation of things or issues that means our allies and partners and the american people should be very concerned about trump's nominee for this position and that's

why i think it's more than just principle to wait and require trump to fire you. it's more than just principle because i stepping down or saying he will step down at the end of the biden administration, chris wray is giving a pass to trump and he's not making trump fire him. trump is getting to avoid the scrutiny of firing without any cause whatsoever. it's true this is a position that does not require a president to have caused to remove that person from the position but going back in history, in the 1970s, the congress that passed this term said very specifically, the senate did in their report, that the senate would be a check on the misuse of removal authority without cause and could refuse to confirm the president's appointment after a firing. here you are taking the firing away but the senate still has the ability to question and

refuse to confirm that the scrutiny over firing without probable cause is likely gone now. >> to fill an empty spot and to kick someone out of it. director john brennan, frank figliuzzi, mary mccord, michael steele, thank you. still ahead for us, the deadly shooting of the insurance executive in new york last week. we will tell you about it next. what is — wow! sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh! new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed.

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there is new evidence we are learning about today in the killing of unitedhealthcare ceo brian thompson. the case's suspect, luigi mangione, was found carrying a notebook containing writings about wanting to target a ceo at a conference with the gun according to two sources familiar with the investigation. the nypd said today that a gun seized in pennsylvania from mangione matched three shell casings found at the manhattan crime scene, where thompson was shot and killed, and his fingerprints matched those found on a water bottle and snack bar found by police in new york. mangione is currently in jail in pennsylvania. he was denied bail and is resisting extradition to new york, a process that could take weeks. we promise to stay on that for you. next, the pressure placed on senate republicans to

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it is not 5:00 in new york. continuing with our coverage in what has become a hallmark of trump 2.0 in its early days. seemingly unqualified individuals nominated by a president elect who claimed a broad mandate. nominations asking republicans to abandon what is left of the sense of duty and responsibility to the constitution of the united states. the pressure campaign on senate republican holdouts to confirm trump's nominee to be the 3 million person strong department of defense.

a revealing glimpse into the unbridled power of the maga movement. take for example the joni ernst. the first female combat veteran to serve in the u.s. senate. survivor of sexual assault. argued with her military career would not be possible if men like pete hegseth ran the pentagon when she was serving. on monday after a second meeting with pete hegseth she signaled that she may not she oppose his nomination after all, and made a dismissive tone when it came to the allegations of sexual assault, excessive drinking, and financial mismanagement. saying as i support pete through this process i look forward to a fair hearing based on truth, not anonymous sources. how did that happen? it all happened after an intense and rather brutal in he state. here is a sampling. >> the deep state is trying to

stop the nomination, but pete isn't backing down. call your senator today and urge them to confirm pete hegseth for secretary of defense. >> deep stay in joni ernst. we have to stop and revel in that. the pressure campaign also includes a threats to primary senators who opposed pete hegseth. right-wing podcast or and personality tweets this. warning to joni ernst. pete hegseth will be just fine if you sabotages deserved spot. i will hire him tomorrow without a second thought among the largest digital content platforms in the world. and his voice will be even more powerful. you, however, will not be fine. going on to claim that joni ernst would an aa former

congresswoman liz cheney. or any other republicans cast out by the party for having a spine or a principal or a sense of patriotism or loyalty to the constitution. or the rule of law or decency or not grabbing women. you know what i am talking about. instead of supporting donald trump. another trump ally went so far as to threaten to hire private investigators to investigate and take up there on any elected official who is a holdout. telling the organization they are excited about the new standard . the drinking and womanizing is disqualifying from public office. i am very happy to hire investigators for senators and use that standard. drinking and womanizing. terms allies want everyone to think that pete hegseth's checkered past is not disqualifying being the nuclear chain of command of the united states of america. on that allegation of sexual assault which he denies but admits he paid a settlement to his accuser they want

republicans to say stuff like that does not matter. on his record of financial mismanagement of a rather small nonprofit they want republicans to say it doesn't matter just because you can control that small amount of money. it has no bearing on whether or not you can run with the largest employers with one of the largest budgets. on the allegations of drinking while on the job, which is what 10 sources at fox news said he did, also while he let a veterans group. terms allies want republicans to say smelling like alcohol before you go on the air and getting on a stage at a club has no bearing. someone who cannot just carry, but managed the nuclear arsenal. instead trumps people threatening to dig up dirt and what ever he was going to do to

joni ernst. they think it's important pete hegseth is the line in the sand. the hill to die on when it comes to the senate republicans breaking and bending to their will and confirming all of these folks to trump's second cabinet. the wall street journal reports after full representative matt gaetz was forced to withdraw as the attorney general pick trump's aides feel it is important to be back the doubts over pete hegseth to make sure concerns about other nominees don't snowball. some of trump's allies in the media are saying the same thing. >> it is time. they have already taken their scalp in matt gaetz. if we don't draw a line in the sand and say not today. not this guy.

folks, the swamp has already won. >> donald trump won an election that is being felt around the world still today. you talk about france. this is why we must support our guys get these men and women who are in the barrel brenna because if they take out pete hegseth they already got matt gaetz. if they take a piece they are going to be on to tulsi gabbard or kennedy or kash patel next, and we must hold the line. >> blue cross pressure campaign to confirm maga act like pete hegseth and tulsi gabbard and others in the face of real concerns about their qualifications to lead the department they have been tapped to lead. and pete hegseth's case the defense department. here is how we begin the our. >> pete hegseth is the tip of

the >> for the maga movement. they have coalesced around him using all of the weapons and assets to back them up, and i think it's a line in the sand for them and democracy because he is up first. >> when i say we did not know he was accused in the 10 people outfoxed said he shows up to work drunk? why not give it to tom cotton? >> if you can bust through with pete hegseth other things become easy. this is a long played by trump. he knows it is a reach. it would not happen in normal

times. he is the perfect guy to carry the flag and be the teeth of the >> for this movement. if he goes down he will be a sacrificial lamb and still be very relevant to the community. it also shows the playbook because this is exactly what they will use for tulsi gabbard and kash patel. the question is going to be where are the moderates? susan collins is in the crosshairs. they won't have the same kind of impact on her. i think joni ernst is probably being very strategic here. they are saying let's wait for the fbi investigation because you can't turn that and see if anything else comes out. he and challenge the accusers and they accepted the challenge. they are keeping their powder dry and their head down, and there is a long time between now and a confirmation hearing. i think it is a smart plate to wait and see. >> i do not even know that we have moderates anymore. covering the trump story can make you dumber, and i feel dumb asking this question, but what is the difference in maga

world between tom cotton who literally wrote the first public advocate, and i am against everything he believes with every fiber of my being, but he does not -- 10 people do not describe them as going to work drunk. nobody accused him of mismanaging a budget for a nonprofit. there are no known allegations of sexual assault. they are have the country for better or for worse. there are plenty of people to choose from that don't have all of the baggage of a pete hegseth or rfk. why is this a line in the sand? >> for a couple of reasons. they just do not want to show weakness. this is why donald trump pretended that he won the election. you cannot keep giving in. it is a part of the mindset. a part of it is the main object of is most people do not have actual policy objectives or things they want the government to do. they want to upset the left and the people they don't like.

they want people to have their hair on fire. they would like that. they want to drink liberal tears or whatever. pete hegseth lives for that beer i am sure people would be upset about tom cotton, but you would not get over that to the degree the maga folks feel they have gotten a win in this imaginary fight they are in with shadow elites. that is a big part of it , and also had trump picked cotton they would all be further cotton. the devotion here that we need to stand behind him. i think that is driving a lot of this. the whole thing is insane, and 2 months ago you showed that clip. if i had said what are you doing? trump is going to put the fox

one in charge of the pentagon. they would have said i was the crazy one. they would've looked at us and said you have trump derangement syndrome he would never do this, so in order to rationalize their position they need to come up with a reason why this is defensible or why mr. trump is the only one that saw what the country really needs is a guy who is a total disaster and is a weekend talkshow host. they find ways to rationalize that, and if they give in that cracks their fragile rationalization for what they are promoting right now.>> it feels like a story we have sold 1 million times over that trump

and the maga movement double down and pressure republicans to bend at their will. i just want to see if i can find an air pocket and trying to understand if you have any sense of why . why is pete hegseth, who seems like a capable news anchor, but why is he this cause now with all of the baggage that has been revealed that we know from reports? he did not disclose to donald trump. why do you think trump and his allies are digging in and pressuring someone like senator joni ernst to confirm him? >> because he is putting on a reality tv show. that is what he is doing. with all of these dominations with these folks to these very high profile situations. trump is basically casting a reality tv show, and he wants to stick it to the establishment. it is about seeing how many of the people who are in power can

flip off, and that is what this guy is doing. with everything else going on his nonqualified to be dod secretary because he has never managed anything bigger than a platoon. >> let me show you. i think it's amazing where the line is drawn in the republican party, so here is a republican representative from georgia basically saying when he was around him he was alert. i will play it for you. >> i want to ask you about the drinking. he said that he has pledged to not touch alcohol if you become secretary of defense. what are your thoughts on that as a medical doctor? >> i think if somebody doesn't want to drink that is fine. i do not know how much he drinks normally. he was sober and alert in front of us.

>> i would hope so. he would have the most endangered nomination so far of trump's second go at this. that is not really the point. this is someone who would be in the nuclear command who attend college at fox news accused of having an issue drinking very close to airtime. >> this is a guy who could not pass a background check to be a babysitter for my girls let alone the secretary of defense. if he was to apply for a job to look after my 6 and 10-year-old i would say you admitted you paid off a woman accusing you and all of the people say you have a drinking problem. i would said no thanks. and yet he is been nominated to run an agency with a 3 million personnel in uniform and civilian with a budget. this is defense budget is over $925 billion. trump is doing is putting on a reality tv show for his maga base. they are loving it . sticking

it to the man and the establishment. in the meantime what is really scaring me is the fact that he is moving to put people in charge who are authors of project 2025. putting people into place in places where they are really going to do real damage. pete hegseth will get to be dod even if he gets confirmed and he will be able to run his agency. i am pretty sure my money would be on trump firing him after not long the way trump fired everybody in his first term that he thought looked good on camera. he tried to fire his own vice president at one point. i do not think pete hegseth is long for this position even if he does get confirmed. in the meantime it is good tv for his maga base. >> i think your theory is the

closest to helping me understand what is going on, but i guess what i would press you on as he is doing it to stick it to the establishment, but the men and the women in the military and the families that pay the price. what happens to them? >> very much so. he puts them in danger. to have somebody in charge of the department of defense who cannot manage it who does not understand the burdens of the military men and women and their families. the words that this man has used to describe the role of women in the military. undermines their service and sacrifice and the fact of the matter is our military could not go to war with of the 225,000 women who served in uniform. it's incredibly deeply disrespectful, but also destabilizing in terms of the readiness of our military and does but the men and women in uniform in danger, which is why those of us who are going to be

on the committee are going to be sure to be asking him the tough questions. i won't be voting for him unless he comes up with some miracle answers to the questions that i have because he is not qualified to run the department of defense. >> let me show you his efforts of completely rewriting his past statements as you just alluded to. >> i want an opportunity to clarify comments that have been misconstrued that i somehow don't support women in the military. some of our greatest warriors are women who served this country and love our nation and want to defend that flag and do it every single day around the globe. i am not presuming anything, but after president trump asked me to be his secretary of defense should i get the opportunity i look forward to being a secretary for all of our warriors for the amazing contributions they make in our military. a >> i am surprised there has not been more blowback on that because i am saying we should not have women in combat roles.

>> i want ask you to discern which is the real pete hegseth, but how do you trust anything he says if he is willing to say anything to be confirmed? >> i do not trust anything he says because precisely that. i can only say i will look at the accumulation of what he has said. he has tried to walk this back before saying adjustment women should not be in the special forces like the green beret or navy seals because they have lower standards and are not as strong as men, which goes back to show he is not qualified to be secretary of defense because he does not understand the women who graduate are actually meeting the same standard as the men who are graduating from those schools. this guy does not know what he is talking about, and when he makes his statements like that it's clear he is not qualified. our women have made the military stronger because they could not go to work without the women that serve in its

ranks.>> thank you for having this conversation with us. stick around. we have much more on what this looks like all to confirm some of donald trump's most controversial cabinet selections. will also look at the new scrutiny facing another of trump's controversial nominees. rfk jr. and white top scientific experts are sounding the alarm all over again about him and later we learned more about trump's day one plans to scrap a long-standing policy that barred ice agents from arresting people in places like churches or schools or hospitals. evidence that for trump the brazen cruelty at that policy is precisely the point of it. we continue after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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what i have heard from my republican colleagues i think the odds him him being approved is less than 50-50. i am hearing from republican colleagues doubts about his ability to do this job the way that appalls national security. there are too many doubts into many risks and threats to our national security from disappointment. i think my republicans are deeply troubled, and to be really blunt if the fear of donald trump and his retribution were less there is no question that this

nomination would go down and go down heavily. >> that with senator of connecticut with doubts. talk about private conversations of republican senators. your thoughts? >> i'm not counting on the democrats to stop pete hegseth. tammy duckworth is uniquely, but when you get to others, i do do not think it is formidable. they do not have the same punch. >> they do not have the numbers. >> but at the end of the day what i am looking to are the whistle blowers in the press. they will have to hold the line and continue to investigate and find out what else comes out.

there are a lot of people who have been in writing alleging things about pete hegseth. it only takes one to go to the press. maybe those negotiations are happening now. maybe they're trying to get security protections and other assurances so they can come forward. there is a long time between now and then and also the fbi. not coincidental they are attacking the fbi while they are investigating these people. this is a moment for them to do but the fbi is designed to do. if it is presented before the fbi and incriminating or disqualifying that forces their hand. i think some are exercising some strategic patience here recognizing it's a long fight and they have to keep their head down and pick their spots, but right now the ball is in the court of the press and whistle blowers and fbi. >> let me respectfully push back a little bit what more could the fbi yield then 10 former fox colleagues say he went to work drunk and smelled like a call before he went on the air? 22 page police report from the

police department alleging sexual assault. a settlement. that is what got bill o'reilly fired from fox news. you are talking about an fbi background here what else could they yield? >> plenty more where that came from. moore and other. more because none of that was known two weeks ago. they have more access in the press or whistle blowers, and i think it is a matter of time. he has been known and out there with a degree of sloppiness over the last couple of years. there is a lot more opportunity for people to step forward and to say i am not going to be afraid because i am a survivor of sexual assault. that is why i would be focusing on those people and providing protection and calling their bluff. if they are saying we are challenging whistle blowers to come forward see if a whistle blower will. >> i feel like there has been this massive experiment for nine years but what happens if one of the countries two political parties collapses on itself ? some of the people on the right like to attack the press describing trump.

j.d. vance did that. some of trump's critics like to attack the press for personalizing their attacks on donald trump. mitch mcconnell called him a despicable human being and a narcissist. the head fake and the reason this is a conversation and possibility that someone is calling described as drunken on the job with zero consequences as to whether or not men or women in the military move or die. he is a cable news host. with all of that information at hand it is like i do not know. he could get through. he is nice. the thing that is broken is the senate republican caucus and the indifference to credible allegations of drunkenness, sexual assault, and mismanagement. there should not be more information required.>> yeah. i noticed in the joni ernst statement there were these anonymous sources.

his mother emailed them and said he is an abuser of women and essentially said he has been a bad person and she does not like the way he has treated women. that was his mom. i do not know how much more of a credible source you can get. i washed that clip and with all respect. are we in groundhog day? are we one of those movies where you are living the same thing over and over again? he think they have deep concerns . if the concerns are that deep then talk. speak. they have been elected to the senate. joni ernst is up and two years, but some of them are retiring or are not up for four years or a six-year term. trump would be gone the next time they are up for election. if they have these concerns

then share them. the idea they can only be raised in private. it worked out with matt gaetz in our favor because he withdrew because of what republicans were saying in private. when push comes to shove it seems to me like pete hegseth is not going anywhere, and they will have to buck up and vote him down . if they act in any way like from joni ernst the people are going to have concerns for however many years he is the secretary of defense.>> wow. do you want to make a prediction of what happens? >> i can't. that is the important part is this is very dynamic. it could change by the end of this hour. >> that is true. do not go too far then. thank you for joining us. dire new warnings about another trump cabinet. . the scientists and health

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i think vaccines are incredible, but maybe some aren't. if they are and we have to find out you when you talk about autism because was brought up and look at the amount we have today versus 20 or 25 years ago

it's pretty scary. >> scientists say that hey have gotten better at identifying and there is no lincoln studies. >> the drug companies are going to be working with rfk jr., and he has been an interesting guy to me. i have watched him for 25 years, and he has been an interesting guy.>> he is interesting to donald trump's pick to lead the of health and human services. so interesting. someone who according to new reporting is facing some serious trouble with republican senators. reporting at least three close ally senators are noncommittal about confirming the vaccine critic. does include swing votes as well as a physician who will chair a committee that could host confirmation hearings for kennedy. that reporting coming fresh off the striking warning for more

than 75 nobel prize winners who are urging senators to vote against kennedy's confirmation. in a strongly worded letter they write this. placing mr. kennedy in charge of dhhs would put the public's health in jeopardy and undermine america's global leadership in the health sciences. joining our conversation. former obama white house policy director and msnbc medical contributor. it is hard to know where to start with rfk jr., but let's start with what may be some of the political friction that he faces again if he does face political pushback from republicans, which i think is a giant dvd at this point. there are examples that have been reported on by the press that where he has expressed skepticism about vaccines people who have heard the skepticism have heated it and lost their lives.

what is possible if someone who most generous description of his view on vaccines is indifference? the most dangerous. skeptical to disinterested in mandatory vaccines:what could happen if someone like that leads hhs? >> you are right because i think all of the buster at the surface. social media and videos of him working out are not what worry me. the authority is the secretary he would have. he could easily change and dismantle the advisory committee on immunization practices. that is the best practice committee that looks at the evidence and makes recommendations to the head of the cdc. he could also take apart the vaccine for children's programs so the actual program that funds vaccines for children he could dilute that and could even -- and this is was scary. you can take it to things like immigration status and start to see that it is a very thin

thread to pull apart and take apart these incredible programs, and this results in lives lost but they estimate the increase from unvaccinated individuals today and not next year, but today could cause at least a 6x rise. 5000 cases now. potentially 30,000, and it gets exponential from there. that is with today's status quo with a biden administration and jenna republicans want to keep vaccines in place. it is not difficult to see beyond the media how he could under a number of important programs and really create a generation of lives lost. >> someone was describing what that would mean this way that if you wanted to vaccinate your kids you can still vaccinate them or ask for them, but it could mean that all of our kids know kids who get gravely ill or die of diseases once thought

eradicated. can you pull the thread a little bit for us? >> yeah. i will explain it even further. i have not seen an active case of measles in decades because we shouldn't. that is why we do not see polio. i would not even know how to recognize these as clinical science. when i take them to the pediatrician i know a lot, but trust they are putting into place the best practices recommended by the advisory committee on the music nation practices signed off by the centers for disease control and prevention and endorsed by the american academy of pediatrics. take away that element and it means they cannot say this is what we recommend for your children. you will have to ask for it. think of how many people in the healthcare system know what to ask for and how to ask for it and receive it and how many who

have money to pay for it if you no longer have a program that will fund those children vaccines. we have not even talked about the injury compensation fund that he has brought under fire. and injury compensation fund for the very event you do have an injury. you take apart that infrastructure and it turns into children going to emergency rooms with symptoms that never we can recognize because we have not been trained in it and could see beating two fatalities. this is an incredibly preventable set of diseases that we now have two recognizes and won't have the medical tools to do so. >> and also try to quantify the damage that could be done? i have a baby, so i am and every month for shots. it is a pretty specific schedule in early years. and your baby feels yucky for a day or two afterwards. what is the potential impact? has it been measured was skepticism or indifference about vaccines even if you do not withdraw funding or change requirements would due to a

parent's willingness to adhere to that early childhood vaccine schedule? >> we are already seeing it because i think there has been enough disinformation whether it is social media or the scientists during covid that if you would a lot of the misinformation about the fact your body can naturally find some of these diseases that we develop vaccines for. that will translate into that. unvaccinated children can translate to six times the number of cases of measles, but let's take it to an individual. if you don't stick to the schedule or have those vaccines done by a certain age you don't have the lifelong immunity and you can even talk about we have done studies to show it results in increased mortality and death rates. increased problems with mental development because many of the viruses can actually delay brain development. all of the things we have been talking about. all of that will get heightened, and you are putting your child at risk.

i don't want to do any fear mongering, so i think it's important to say schedule of vaccines is there for a reason, but every pediatrician i know works with parents like you and me to try to understand what your child needs and over what time period. not having those done in the first five years can cause all of those learning delays, intercepting your child up for failure when we are one of the most developed nations in the world and should be setting our children up for success. what are putting ourselves at risk when it is unnecessary? i go back to harms and benefits. when it outweighs the risks by millions of percentage points we can prevent literally millions of deaths from these vaccines. where is the evidence for the harm from those is where the disinformation starts . >> there isn't any evidence, but this is a subculture in right-wing information ecosystem that is pretty far down the track to be honest.

the embrace of rfk jr. what are your thoughts about his confirmation path? >> the politics of this one are stranger because he comes from a democratic background, and the anti-vaccine sentiment was always out of the horseshoes of the ideological realm of. there was some of that on the that for a while in the 80s and 90s. a lot of that rfk anti-vaccine culture. there has been this jump of the horseshoe where all of those folks that are anti-medical establishment have coalesced under the trump umbrella. that said, you have not seen that as much from the more traditional republicans. you have seen some of it of course, so the question is if you look at that list of three people i to put them in a

different category. they are on the committee. they did vote yes on impeachment after the insurrection. he is eyeing a run for governor of louisiana which is one of those, so that may complicate his politics a little bit. i am a little more open to this. that might offset some losses with republicans, so i think that feels a little more tenuous than others, but i would not bet any money on it. >> going to be an interesting want to watch. thank you so much for joining us. when we come back.

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migrants on day one of his presidency. today nbc news is reporting this. the incoming trump administration intends to rescind a long-standing policy that has prevented immigration and customs enforcement agency from arresting undocumented people at or near so-called sensitive locations including houses of worship, schools and hospitals or events such as funerals, weddings and public demonstrations without approval from supervisors. this had been a key policy priority for project 2025. the game plan for trump's presidency that he said he had never heard of. there has been a long-standing policy of requiring a higher standard for ice arrests and sensitive locations so that people are not fearful to worship or seek medical treatment and so the kids are not afraid to go to school. with this action trump once again signaling the fear leading to cruelty really is

the point. thank you for being here. explain why this has four past administrations been a redline.>> thank you for having me to talk about this. it has been a redline for a reason, which is that conducting enforcement sensitive locations like churches, schools, weddings is bad for public safety and does nothing to advance national security. i am surprised trump made this announcement days after he made a point that he would like to focus on protecting longtime undocumented immigrants like dreamers. is someone who serve the national security council and department of homeland security this is not what law- enforcement would recommend pick you are going to be hurting necessary

investigations if you start sending your officers into every public space not to mention the impact it would have on american citizens who could be wrong quality racially profiled in these operations.>> it also seems to be the kind of announcement that invites people into the fight that may not be on their side. our church is going to simply open up the doors? it seems to create more potential places of resistance. no? >> absolutely. how can you build public trust in our immigration system again when you are asking priests and rabbis to turn over their congregants to authorities? that is not what the united states is about or what the selection was about. people when asking for an increase in law enforcement and places of worship or for the public health of their community to be impacted because people are too afraid to go to the hospital. we found there are 28 million latinos in the united states who have an undocumented family

member. imagine him as having to make a decision to get medical care or report a crime to the police because they want to open up a policy that has been working well for immigration enforcement since 2011. i grew up in a community where the policy was not and place it in the first time i was questioned by immigration enforcement i was leaving my middle school. a lot of americans do not remember that time. there is a reason this policy has been in place and a reason ice supported it because it helps by building public trust that in the rear exception they need to enter the spaces it is for a very urgent national security or public safety reason. >> we will continue this conversation with you. i appreciate your understanding and helping us understand it better. thank you. another break for us. we will be right back.

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thank you so much for bringing us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat with ari melber" starts right now. hi, ari. >> thank you, nicolle. this is "the beat with ari melber." we begin with something most presidents do not go through in an entire term.