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hi there, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. he's team trump's not so secret weapon in spinning one's way out of the democratic experience. the world's richest man is now lending his massive resources to turbocharge the pressure campaign to confirm donald trump's top cabinet nominees. pete hegseth, tulsi gabbard, kash patel, rfk jr., and more, all of whom face very legitimate questions about their basic competence and fitness for the jobs they have been tapped to do. there is brand-new reporting in "the new york times" today that reveals that, quote, a dark money conservative group that musk has used for political spending ran digital ads in iowa calling on people to urge senator ernst to vote for mr. hegseth. in fact, team trump sees elon musk's wallet and vast resources as the best way to bully and

brow beat republicans into submission. one trump adviser telling abc's john carl last month this, quote, if you're on the wrong side of the vote, you're buying yourself a primary. that is all the adviser told john carl, and there is a guy named elon musk who is going to finance it. the president gets to decide his cabinet, and no one else, the adviser adds. problem is this, it is simply not how the constitution says it works. the senate has a constitutionally mandated role. it is called advise and consent, article 2, section 2 of the constitution. what team trump is asking is to force the senate, in particular the incoming republican majority, to simply abdicate that role and make trump a king, to surrender their constitutionally mandated job and obligation, embedding nominees. many republicans, i'm sure, will be more than happy to hand over

their oversight role to the world's richest man, on the house side, here's congresswoman marjorie taylor greene last week. >> elon and vivek talked about having a naughty list and a nice list for members of congress and senators and how we vote and how we're spending the american people's money. i think that would be fantastic. >> so that's her view on all this. but what republicans, especially senate republicans, decide to do with their constitutional duty and authority is about much more than their personal fears of retribution or their political ambitions for the future. trump and musk are trying to kneecap really the only remaining check on donald trump's complete control over the federal government. and it isn't about nominees who are too republican or too conservative or too ideological. many of trump's nominees are

radical choices to lead their departments and they hail from all corners of the ideological spectrum. "new york times" reports this, quote, many of his would be nominees have fiercely criticized the very agencies they're seeking to helm, some of the claims they have leveled are faulty to start. these nominees also should face basic questions of whether they're up to the job. and it is up to the senate to examine those questions. that is their job. senators should ask why kash patel would lead the fbi when a former defense secretary appointed by trump who worked alongside kash patel has raised serious concerns that patel may have nearly botched a sensitive mission. >> we're trying to rescue an american in west africa, who had been captured by we believe terrorists, and whose life was in danger. so we sent our special operators abroad to rescue that person, they were in the air, we had launched them, i had launched them on the premise that we had air space clearance into that country to conduct the

operation, and it was information given by allegedly kash patel to tony tada, who worked for me in osd policy and we found out hours later as we were about to cross into that territory that it was not true, that state department had not got that clearance. so it, for a moment in time there, at least an hour, it jeopardized the mission. but it is one of those moments out there that demanded going back and questioning what happened. >> senators have a constitutionally mandated obligation to ask why tulsi gabbard is capable of being the director of national intelligence, when, as trump's own former national security adviser points out, she has no relevant experience. >> she doesn't have any experience in intelligence matters. she has demonstrated repeatedly that she doesn't understand international affairs. she has been quoted as saying that effectively putin was

justified in having russia invade ukraine because there were secret american biological weapons laboratories in ukraine. i mean, this is fantasy land stuff. >> senators have a job as outlined by the constitution to ask whether pete hegseth is really the best guy to run the pentagon, with its 850 billion, with a b, dollar budget and 3 million employees, when he was essentially fired, run out of a veterans nonprofit for drinking on the job, taking his workforce to a strip club, to say nothing of an allegation of sexual assault, which he denies, but admits to paying a settlement over. here is a former colleague making a rather logical common sense point. >> this is a small nonprofit full of less than ten individuals with a budget less than $5 million, $5 million to $10 million and he couldn't do that properly? i don't know how he's going to run an organization with an $857

billion budget and 3 million individuals based on what i saw in those years. >> shouldn't matter, but i will point out, all three of those voices are republican voices. or at least ones who are aligned with the republican party. this is where we start today, the trump pressure campaign to confirm cabinet nominees is an assault on the checks and balances of the constitution. we start with? of our favorite reporters and friends with me at the table, "new york times" investigative report, msnbc national security contributor mike schmidt, democratic strategist and professor at columbia university, msnbc political analyst basil smikle, and also joining us, msnbc columnist, author of the newsletter to the contrary charlie sykes is here. i start with you, charlie. it is probably the oldest and the most numbing trump story of all, what will republicans do because the answer tragically with the exception of liz cheney and adam kinzinger is almost always nothing, nada.

but this one has a wrinkle in that this is choosing between the constitution and donald trump. and i wonder if you think there is any -- anything in the pipes, anything in the system that will slow the senate republicans' capitulation to trump on any of these nominees? >> i feel like we heard that question before too during the impeachments. look, you know, what you have here is this -- is maga world has decided to go all in on these, i would say, these deplorable nominations. how long did it take them to get joni ernst to cave in? look, i mean, the story about elon musk is really extraordinary. right now elon musk thinks of himself as the master of the universe, the world's richest man, he's now worth $400 billion, his net worth has doubled since the election. so he's not only the world's richest man, but he is now wielding the power of the presidency. and he's using it to intimidate

and to bully members of the united states senate. one of the questions that i think we ought to ask is not just will it work, because it likely will work, but also who will ever hold him to account? right now, if you are elon musk, what do you worry about? who is going to enforce any ethics rule, who is going to call you out for conflicts of interest? who is going to call you out for attempts -- alleged attempts to extort senators to vote, who is going to do any of that? because this is one of the moments we're at right now where we have this conjunction of massive wealth, with massive political power, and the absence of accountability. and at some point, the senators are going to have to ask themselves either in public or in private, do they want to be reduced to potted plants in this particular system? because it is all out there. i will tell you one more thing, the hearing, we're still a long

way away from the hearings and the hearings are going to be extraordinary. and no matter what the senators think right now, when the country sees some of this testimony, when they see some of the people who will come forward and tell stories about tulsi gabbard and pete hegseth and kash patel's behavior, who knows. again, a gut check that republicans have failed over and over and over again. >> let me stay with you, charlie. this is "time" magazine's interview with donald trump about this very topic, whether there are any conflicts of interest. i feel like that would be a sentence that could be uttered in another language and trump wouldn't understand it any better. but here's the transcript. "time" magazine asks donald trump, on musk specifically, giving him the power to oversee the agencies that regulate his companies, isn't that a conflict of interest? trump, i don't think so. look, we have a country that is bloated with rules, regulations and with, frankly, people that are unnecessary to do.

"time" magazine, but elon musk is talking about cuts that would directly affect nasa, which would directly affect spacex, his company. isn't that a textbook definition of trump, i think that elon puts the country long before his company. i mean, he's in a lot of companies. but he really is, and i've seen it. he considers this to be his most important project and he wanted to do it. i bet he did. and, you know, i think he's one of the very few people that would have the credibility to do it. and he puts the country before and i've seen it. before he puts his company. okay, so that's the reassurance that trump is offering about elon musk, charlie. >> well, think about all the things that we used to think were important that nobody seems to care about anymore, including all the ethics rules involving donald trump. donald trump -- i mean, eight years ago, people were concerned about whether or not he would divest himself of, you know,

many of his involvement in his companies. now he's not even going through the motions. he's out there marketing a new perfume product. so, this is -- this is one of the markers of a donald trump presidency that he frankly does not care about any of these particular rules. and unfortunately, and again you're going to use a word we used too many times probably, but i think we have been numb to it. and i think that to the extent that there are people who are supposed to be the guardrails, they have either decided that they're going to stand down, or they're no longer in a position to do anything about it. so, this is an extraordinary moment and there are words in our language that describe what we are confronting here. words like oligarchy, kleptocracy, we are seeing an extraordinary confluence of conflicts and the abuse -- and the potential abuse of power

and, again, the question we keep asking is, is anybody going to stand before this and say stop, this is what the constitution is designed to do, right? it is to provide the checks and balances that would prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening. and this is the big question mark, this is the big test, for -- not just for the country, not just for the u.s. senate, but for the country. >> mike this , this is a topic e of your reporting this week that people by and large heading into the november election find a lot more of the checks and balances than we do. >> during the election, i would talk to people and i would say, what do you think of this central claim by democrats and anti-trump republicans that if trump is re-elected, he's going to rule like an autocrat. and time and time again, people would say to me, they would say, well, there will be checks and balances. there is the three branches. and to me that was particularly interesting because it showed

that what we're taught in elementary school had persisted in the minds of many americans, and that they had extreme faith in that, that they thought that the things standing between trump and being an autocrat was the three branches, the separation of powers. >> what do you think that means? they had not read anything about the supreme court giving him absolute immunity or the house republicans rolling over? >> schoolhouse rock spent a lot of time on this in the 1970s. they showed videos of it. >> maybe they should go back. >> and it is something that -- there is a lot of reverence in this country for the constitution. and the central part of the constitution is the separation of powers. so, when i went and you kind of look at what the three branches are today, you're not taking many leaps to say that they're in a weaker position to hold trump accountable than they certainly were in 2017. >> sure. >> in 2017, you know, the court had a more even split. you had in the executive branch,

you had jim comey here, fbi director, and you had political appointees under trump who were willing to recuse themselves from the russian investigation in jeff sessions and appoint a special counsel in rod rosenstein and in rod rosenstein, someone who allowed the michael cohen investigation to go forward. so that was, from the executive branch. and then in congress, you still had some anti-trump republicans and i think it would be fair to say that the republican party today has been really remade in trump's image. so the three branches, this thing that people put in enormous amount of faith of is in a weaker position today to do those things that children in school are taught about. >> well, i mean, i think we'll have to send them a note in a month if all these guys get through. because the textbook obligation of the checks and balances is to do what is in the constitution, absent the money of the richest

man in the world, absent the extraordinary pressure cooker of fox news and all the other sort of knockoff fox news on the right. so, to the degree that this is about a perversion of something people hold dear and believe to be true, that project seems near complete. >> it is interesting because the framers saw this coming in many ways. i always seem to be bringing up the federalist papers on this show, to your point about the constitution, a young country with a fairly durable constitution that people do believe in. and madison said, you know, the senate was to guard against the fickleness and passion of the house. and i think it was washington that said that the senate was supposed to be the saucer that the hot tea of the house would flow over into. so there is a tremendous amount of reverence that is expected of our senate, but, you know, to your point and to charlie's point, we have accepted to some extent the influence of the wealthy and business leaders in

our governance. we have accepted some of that. what is concerning now is that what you're seeing with elon musk is the darkest of the dark money. there is no accountability there. we don't know where exactly he's spending his money. you know, when you look at twitter, for example, if you are casually observing government and politics, you're looking at twitter, you don't know what is him versus what is happening organically. you know, with the algorithm, you're looking at, you know, feeds, is the algorithm rhythmic to elon musk and donald trump's interests? and because that line has been blurred, that has also blurred the distinctions and the checks and balances that we talk about. >> yeah. >> and so when you use terms like oligarchy, you can also layer on top of that this extreme privatization, because that's what it feels like, you know, does nasa become elon musk at the end of the day because that's what he wants? he wants to be able to take control of these parts of government, not just reform it.

and that's really the scary part that we have to -- that hopefully the senators will get to the bottom of. >> i mean, mike, the reporting suggests there might be a tension if trump obliterates or shoves through the wood chipper the perception he cares about this cherished idea of checks and balances. do you sense there is any political risk to doing away with it? >> i don't think -- look, the american people elected donald trump, knowing all of this stuff. there is no real secrets about how donald trump wants to operate and is operating. i don't even think -- >> where do you think there is faith that he won't be so bad because the checks and balances comes from? >> the funny thing about that is that things that people that didn't vote for donald trump would say, that they thought that the system would hold. and, you know, some of that is maybe the belief that the system held the first time that trump was president. you know, but there is this

thing, you know, that we're taught back when we're children about the constitution, the reverence for the constitution, the country has had presidents of different parties hand off power to each other, and, you know, time and time again. the one time that we had or most recent time or dramatic time in history we had a president in nixon, there were questions about whether he broke the law and abused his power, justice department investigated him, the supreme court forced him to hand stuff over, and congress was ready to impeach him. that is largely a vision of this system working to check a potentially undown president. i'm not sure the system is set up today to do that. >> well, that's a point that we consider all the time. if you think that the system is broken, maybe the way of looking at it is that it is actually working, but not for the people you think it should be working for. that for a very small segment of the population.

>> yeah. i think this sets up a longer conversation about what, i mean, anti-trump sentiments have always been branded better by the trump side than the trump opposition, and i think if they're coming out against the constitution, it is enormous political flank to open up and i guess i would ask all of you to think about what that means, being against the constitution, which is where they're heading. i'll ask all of you to stick around for a break. when we come back, news today about the findings of a justice department watchdog report on the january 6th capitol riot. that report today undercuts a debunked conspiracy repeated millions of times by trump allies, who continue to push the lie that january 6th was instigated by federal agents. plus, more on pete hegseth, who, today, is having to walk back comments that in an earlier era would have ended his confirmation dreams on day one. how he continues to be thrown lifelines from trump loyalists.

and later in the show, we're learning more about how the trump administration plans to implement its large scale unprecedented day one mass deportation plan. we'll have all those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley. still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief with rinvoq. check. when flares tried to slow me down,... ...i got lasting remission with rinvoq. check. and many were in remission... ...even at nearly 2 years. and rinvoq... ...helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting remission. and visibly reduced damage. check. rinvoq can lower ability to fight infections. before treatment, test for tb and do bloodwork. serious infections, blood clots, some fatal;...

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only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ reportedly and you can confirm this, it sounds like donald trump has invited president xi to the inauguration. so what can you tell us about that? >> that is true, yes. and this is an example of president trump creating an open dialogue with leaders of countries that are not just our allies, but our adversaries and

competitors too. >> has he rsvp'd? >> to be determined. >> okay. >> have other leaders been invited? >> yes, typically the inaugural committee extends invitations to the foreign dignitaries of other countries. that's precedent. our inaugural committee is doing that as well. >> no foreign leader, no head of state of a foreign country has ever attended a presidential inauguration in u.s. history. ambassadors, sure. but never a foreign head of state. charlie, this will be an interesting space to watch, i suppose? >> yeah, i actually did not know that. thanks for bringing me up to speed on all of that. but, you know, talking about accountability and dark money, it is going to be interesting to watch who steps forward for the funding, privately funding the inauguration. we learned recently that one of the other world's richest men,

mark zuckerberg, has written out a check for $100 million to the inaugural committee. this is another thing that i think that we're seeing in this new abnormal. we used to think that massive wealth would insulate you from being afraid of political backlash, right? but one after another they're stepping forward to kissing the ring. i think the fact that donald trump wants to have president xi there is just a reminder about the world leaders that he most admires and that he most wants to emulate. >> i mean, isn't it an amazing contrast to the transition eight years ago when "the new york times" and "the washington post" were breaking stories at a break neck pace about back channels and about conversations taking place without notes and about stuff happening that was maybe not secure and protected from --

i mean, these sound so quaint eight years in, but maybe not secure phone conversations, not conversations all reported to the then -- and then famously mike flynn making promises to the russian ambassador, to this day we don't know why he did that, they were coming in, they would have had policymaking power. now, just throwing out the paperless post invite to xi to come to his inauguration, first time. >> i think this comes back to there are going to be questions, look, we can't predict the future, but it is hard not to think there are going to be questions that come up about how things go on during the trump presidency. they come up during any presidency. in the case of biden, there was a special counsel that was appointed to handle the investigations of his son. in this case, we're going to see, you know, if the government turns out to look like the way trump wants it, a justice department that almost certainly will not do that.

and will not be that check against him. and that's within his own branch. and that's something all presidents have had to deal with. you know, certainly clinton and go back to iran contra, et cetera. you'll have a president sort of operating without that fear. and certainly the fear of the criminal investigation is what drove trump crazy in that first year or two in office. it was the muller investigation and the obsession about that, and the obsession about sessions' recusal and such. and, you know, by the end of his presidency, he has someone in bill barr that looks more favorably on trump in terms of having to fend off investigations and such. but so you're unlikely to have a justice department as there, and then you're also, you know, the republicans control both houses of congress. so, the ability for oversight

there is far limited. that leaves it to the courts and then it leaves it, you know, basically to the press and the public opinion of the american people. but that is a huge -- the justice department is a huge check even on their own presidents. look, joe biden is furious about the fact that merrick garland appointed a special counsel to investigate his son. and that whole issue created a lot of problems for joe biden up until just a couple of weeks -- couple of days ago, when he pardoned his son. so that won't be there. and trump will make sure those mistakes he sees that as mistakes, you know, the rod rosenstein is a mistake. a lot of people that work in the justice department rosenstein was not someone that really defended the justice department. but donald trump was not happy at all with the fact that rod rosenstein appointed special counsel. you're not going to have special counsels this time around. certainly i don't think. >> in the absence of special

counsels is the absence of any independent examination of whether donald trump, wittingly or unwittingly, the criminal overhang is what triggered trump so dramatically. the national security investigation was a really a question of whether wittingly or unwittingly the russians were aiding his campaign and interfering with american elections. you're also going to be robbed of that. >> you are, and i'm curious where this foreign leader is going to sit on inauguration day. how close to donald trump is he going to get? is there a ceremony behind the scenes beforehand where he lays a pot of gold or a treasure chest at his feet, saying, you know, welcome, you know, my new leader? i want to know, you know, sort of where is the transparency and accountability and it doesn't seem to be any as you talk about, you know, the money and politics, the money is the new politics. it really is. for someone like elon musk to be so close to donald trump, and so

influential in his presence, and for donald trump to, you know, talk about tariffs and the way he does -- foreign leader potentially coming to the inauguration in a way -- and they have never done that before, you really do, on the one hand, get somewhat of a sense of why people voted for him. they wanted someone that they believed would fight for them. i may disagree with that. but in his mind, this is the evidence of that. that i can get somebody to come to my inauguration. >> mm-hmm. >> at the same time, and this is a point you were making, at the end of the day, does the voter actually feel that this is all in their benefit? you know, will they actually see a financial and economics as we talk about the economy, do they see an economic benefit in all of this engagement or do we just have to continue to make the case that perhaps it only affects some people's bottom line? >> it is going to be historic, unprecedented. mike, thank you for being here

and starting us off. charlie and basil, stick around. the findings of a long awaited watchdog report, what it says about a heavily pushed and often repeated conspiracy theory on how the capitol hill insurrection began. more after a quick break. he cap insurrection began more after a quick break is for all people. but here's the truth. attacks on our constitutional rights, yours and mine are greater than they've ever been. the right for all to vote. reproductive rights. the rights of immigrant families. the right to equal justice for black, brown and lgbtq+ folks. the time to act to protect our rights is now. that's why i'm hoping you'll join me today in supporting the american civil liberties union. it's easy to make a difference. just call or go online now and become an aclu guardian of liberty. all it takes is just $19 a month. only $0.63 a day. your monthly support will make you part of the movement

to protect the rights of all people, including the fundamental right to vote. states are passing laws that would suppress the right to vote. we are going backwards. but the aclu can't do this important work without the support of people like you. you can help ensure liberty and justice for all and make sure that every vote is counted. so please call the aclu now or go to my aclu.org and join us. when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special we the people t-shirt and much more. to show you're a part of the movement to protect the rights guaranteed to all of us by the us constitution. we protect everyone's rights, the freedom of religion, the freedom of expression, racial justice, lgbtq rights, the rights of the disabled. we are here for everyone. it is more important than ever to take a stand. so please join us today. because we the people means all the people, including you.

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(sneeze) (hooves approaching) not again. your cold is coming! your cold is coming! thanks...revere. we really need to keep zicam in the house. only if you want to shorten your cold! when you feel a cold coming, shorten it with zicam (revere: hyah) a second long awaited report in less than a week from the justice department's inspector general was released today. it found no evidence that the

fbi deployed undercover agents to the u.s. capitol on january 6th. yet again, undercutting a many times repeated far right conspiracy theory that the january 6th insurrection was fueled by law enforcement. the inspector general determined that there were 26 fbi informants, confidential human sources in the crowd that day. only three have been specifically tasked by the fbi to report on potential domestic terrorism activity. the rest decided to attend the riot on their own. and no fbi informants were authorized by the bureau to enter the u.s. capitol. the report further corroborating fbi director christopher wray's past testimony. >> can you confirm that the fbi had that sort of engagement with your own agents embedded within into the crowd on january 6th? >> if you are asking whether the violence at the capitol on january 6th was part of some

operation orchestrated by fbi sources and/or agents, the answer is emphatically no. >> you're saying no? >> no. no violence orchestrated by fbi sources or agents. >> joining our conversation, democratic congressman dan goldman of new york, he sits on the oversight and accountability committee and was the lead counsel in the first trump impeachment. i started the show yesterday saying that i wish chris wray would stick around when i watched that clip. that's why i think if he could be there as long as humanly possible to knock down the nonsense, it would certainly aid the men and women of the fbi. your thoughts on that news first? >> i agree with you. i understand why chris wray, who is a dedicated nonpartisan law enforcement official and has led the fbi exactly that way would think that his political future, his future as a director is a political football and is a distraction. and so i understand why from his vantage point and i spent ten

years in the doj he thinks that this is not good for the fbi. the problem is we're in donald trump world. it is a different world, we saw that with bob mueller who did the same thing. and then got completely politically, you know, skewered by bill barr. and so what we need now, even for those who believe in our rule of law, believe in nonpartisanship, we need people to hold the guardrails of the rule of law. and that's why i'm disappointed that he resigned, is that he is somebody who would uphold the finest traditions of the fbi and the rule of law in the face of donald trump, and if donald trump wants to fire him, given that he hired him and already fired another fbi director, then make him do that, because then it is clear that donald trump is trying to sabotage the rule of law. by doing this now, he is

allowing donald the runway to execute his worst instincts and kash patel is the worst instinct of donald trump. >> say more. >> well, kash patel's only qualification for this job is retribution and revenge. and so you see these interviews where donald trump is asked, are you going to direct your doj -- your attorney general or fbi director to do this or to do that. he says, no, i'm not going to direct them. he already has. and he's chosen people who know exactly what he wants. and he's chosen people who have repeated publicly that retribution and revenge. and so, kash patel goes in there, with very openly supporting retribution and revenge, and weaponizing the fbi. and the one thing i will say about that is, it is dangerous just to politicize, use it as a weapon, but it will undermine the entire criminal justice system. not just those cases, but every

other case will now be considered in the realm of is this political, is it not, is this to help donald trump's friends, is this to hurt his enemies? that undermines the fabric of our system of law. and that is really what is so dangerous. >> as you're talking, i'm thinking democrats pick republicans or people who work for republicans to run the fbi and trump fires those republicans. what mueller and comey and wray have in common is they're all republicans who work for republicans. i don't know who they voted for, but rod rosenstein and jeff sessions and the rampage that trump has been on for nine years starting with the recusal, i guess, of jeff sessions, from the russia investigation, the russia question, has been all about wanting loyalty and so i wonder to what degree you think there is a public appetite to understanding what a real assault on the rule of law in this country looks like after trump has so normalized it. >> i think that's a huge

problem. and it is clear, as much as i and others try to make this point before the election, that the american people felt like that threat was too remote or more remote than the issues that are affecting them day to day. and i understand that. but when we are now seeing the beginning of the implementation of project 2025, of donald trump's political weaponization of the entire federal government, and it really started after january 6th, right? that's -- yes, he undermined the russia investigation as he wanted, but it is now so personal for him that he is so upset that mar-a-lago was searched. a judge signed off on that search warrant, based on probable cause. this was not chris wray going rogue. this was a judge -- >> the opposite. >> of course. for him to make these accusations that, oh, of course,

unjustified, no cause, no probable cause, it is bogus. but it is all what he's trying to do to undermine these institutions of accountability. that's why he wants to go after journalists and the media, that's why he wants to go after law enforcement, that's why he wants to go after our intelligence and make sure that that can be used for his political benefit. that's why he's undermining our allies and sizing up to or sucking up to dictators. this is all about ways that he can undermine accountability, which is an early step, i'm not sure it is the first step, of authoritarian 101. if we don't have a rule of law, if we don't have a system that people can depend on and trust and has credibility, then the ruler is able to do whatever he wants, and use whatever propaganda to make it seem like what he's doing is better than what our system of government would otherwise offer. >> i mean, trump was reluctantly

held to account by a reluctant merrick garland. he -- at least outwardly facing seemed reluctant to open up any of the cases that ensnared michael cohen or look at volume two of the mueller investigation, those were dead for bill barr and dead whether merrick garland gets in. it takes the appointment of jack smith to seemingly accelerate, at least what was public facing the examination of trump's role in inciting an insurrection, and to your point, trump ran on his freedom, he ran on evading the rule of law that anyone else in this country would be held to, and he ran as someone who went on camera and said i hate flippers, i hate informants and -- what is the tool available to us as a country to make the rule of law a nonpartisan issue, to make not just his numb half of the

country, care about the rule of law again? >> that's our challenge and part of it is we have to recognize we are in a different era. the traditional department of justice philosophy, we don't comment, we don't speak but for -- through indictments and court filings and i think we need to have much more aggressive officials who will respond in the public sphere, because donald trump owns the public sphere, and he owns the microphone and if you don't have those people trying to hold him accountable, and that is in part the media as well, and i know you do it very well, nicolle, but it is a difficult situation, but if you don't have people pointing out everything that is wrong about what he's doing, and the dangers in the media, in our institutions of accountability, then he will continue to get away with this. so i think we have to change our frame of reference, even those of us who believe in nonpartisan

apolitical rule of law. if you are responding to lies of donald trump, to complete misinformation, that is not partisan. >> right. >> that is just factual. >> and you think more of that should happen in rail time eal the last nine years in hindsight? >> yes, i think bob mueller did a by the book investigation. just the facts and the evidence he did not allow any partisanship. christopher wray has been by the book, he's been an excellent fbi director, he's been absolutely slandered, bogusly, wrongly, falsely by republicans, but he has maintained his integrity and the integrity of that institution, but they're not ready for the trump era. and -- or they don't want to be and they have to recognize that it is different. >> the country isn't hungering for a nonpartisan blind

administration rule of law. the country voted for someone -- trump didn't hide his calls for retribution. he opened his campaign with them. >> i think a lot of people ju don't believe it. i heard so many people say, well, we survived the first term, it will be okay this term. well, the first term he had not been charged with four indictments, had not been trying to get out of jail free, he had not been so personally angered by the investigations into him, and now he's taking over those institutions and those agencies with a very different approach. but if you want to hold him -- one of the ways we have to do it is hold him accountable to the other things he promised. >> right. >> if he did get elected because of high costs and grocery prices and the border, then -- and that he promised to help working americans, well, he better do that, but what he's focused on right now is retribution and

revenge, not on that. >> getting xi here for the inauguration. i hope we can continue this conversation over the next four years. thank you for being here. coming up next for us, donald trump's pick to head the department of defense in his own words saying the military should resemble the military from an era long, long ago. he's been walking that back all day long. we'll show it to you next. walki day long we'll show it to you next. ok y'all we got ten orders coming in.. big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant.. that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs. the chase ink card made it easy.

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he seems nice. that should help alleviate any concerns he might notmperament pentagon. that was donald trump's embattled pick to be the secretary of defense, trying to clean up offensive comments for the second time less than one week after footage of him denigrating gay service members came to light. take a look. >> what you're seeing is a military right now that is more interested in social engineering led by this president than they are in war fighting. as a result, don't ask, don't tell and women in the military and standards, they're going to inevitably start to erode standards because they want that one female special operator, that one female green beret, that one female arm ranger, that one female that they can put on a poster. >> charlie, i know trump likes men from the manosphere, but

they spend a lot of time on podcasts saying a lot of things and that seems a hurdle about getting him confirmed. >> he's not only ideologically extreme, he's verbally incontinent and there is more we're going to see between now and the senate vote. and this is also the problem of i think that we have been talking about it, voters vote for certain things but then you get into the details. then you get into the what exactly do you mean when you say this sort of thing? and you're going to see one of these nominees after another have to explain in some detail exactly why they said what they did, why they don't mean what they obviously said, and what they actually believe now. it is going to be an interesting thing to watch. >> basil, the last word on the other side of a short break. stay with us. the last word on te other side of a short break. stay with us plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal.

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basil. >> i think about hegseth's comments, i'm reminded of don't ask don't tell and hrc spent years trying to reverse that and finally did so under obama. i'm always thinking about these posters that protests where people say i can't believe i have to still fight for this. and that's kind of where we are. trump 2.0, what is the resistance going to look like in 2.0? i hosted and moderated a

nonprofit town hall last week, and had the pleasure of hearing a friend who runs an agency who is 170 years old, she said they have been through 34 presidential elections. and as scary and as fearful as they may be, they will get through this. it is a reminder you can take your breath, but we got to keep going, got to keep pushing forward. >> your best self. there is almost everything on the line. basil and charlie, thank you so much for spending the hour with us. still ahead for us today, the campaign promise donald trump and his incoming team seem absolutely dead set on carrying out. that story is next. don't go anywhere. carrying out. that story is next don't go anywhere.

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i have seen some of these democratic governors say they're going to stand in the way, they're going to make it hard for us. a suggestion, if you're not going to help us, get the hell out of the way, we're going to do it. >> he seems nice.

hi, again, everybody. it is 5:00 in new york. in addition to sky high price tag, its brazen cruelty, donald trump's plan to deport millions of people in this country illegally is not without economic impact and massive logistical manpower. it is a massive logistical undertaking to do this. what will it look like to carry out what trump is describing in his own words as, quote, the largest deportation program in american history. you heard from homan, he was speaking there about working with local law enforcement and new reporting in "the new york times" examines what that will look like. quote, trump's promises have provoked fears of widespread roundups. but the more proficient path may be forcing far more of the people who run the nation's jails and prisons to open their

doors to do federal immigration agents to find and deport undocumented prisoners. it presents s s a host of applications. he would need personnel, airplanes, immigration agents and far more than four years to find 11 million undocumented immigrants, take them into custody and transport them back to their home countries. the conditions for a successful mass deportation are far from guaranteed, setting up what could be a protracted fight over an extensive immigration crackdown that has become essential to trump's identity and the success of his presidential campaign n his new interview with "time "magazine, trump unveils what we should expect to see once his term begins. when asked if there will be new camps built to hold detained undocumented immigrants, trump said this, quote, well, there might be. whatever takes to get them out. i don't care. honestly. whatever it takes to get them

out, end quote. he was asked about using the military for the deportations to which he responded by saying, it would be allowed because he considers this a, quote, invasion of our country, adding, quote, i'll only do what the law allows, but i will go up to the maximum level of what the law allows. all underscoring that this say campaign promise trump is intent on carrying out, no matter what. where we start the hour, some of our favorite reporters and friends, nbc news correspondent jacob soboroff is here, the executive producer of the movie "separated" based on his book of the same name about mass deportations and family separation during first trump administration, he's in new haven today, screening the film at yale and receiving the yale pointer fellowship in journalism for his work on it. it is fantastic. run, don't walk. and with me at the table, host of the fast politics podcast, special correspondent for "vanity fair," molly jong fast is here.

when i see mr. homan on tv and feel not shocked, because thanks to your reporting i understand this is what they had in mind, but jolted by it, i want to ask you where this departs from what they did last time and i really want to understand how radical this is, not from any democratic or republican predecessor, but from trump 1.0. can you explain this with that frame? >> well, you know, nicolle, what stuck out to me in the quote you read from president-elect trump there is that he said he would go to the maximum extent of what the law allows only. and that would be going actually less far than he went in the first term because as we all know, the family separation policy was ended by republican appointed judge in the southern district of california who said it was one of the most shameful chapters in the history of the country, because in his words not only did it shock the conscience, but it violated the due process clause of the united states constitution.

so, to hear president-elect trump say he will only go to the maximum extent of the law, it is not what he did in the first term and in saying that they're going to institute the largest mass deportation program in the history of the united states of america which is, as we talked about, just family operation by another name, and a super sizing of the family separation policy because instead of 5500 kids who were subject to government sanctions, child abuse, in the words of the american academy of pediatrics, we're talking about millions of people. >> jacob, what is the resistance if there is any, at the military? let me do this. let me play u.s. army general randy manner tuesday at the senate judiciary hearing on this question of mass deportations. >> the u.s. military is the best trained in the world for its war fighting mission. but it is neither trained or equipped for immigration enforcement. most active duty armed forces receive no training for domestic

law enforcement situations, a small number of national guard units receive a mere four to eight hours of civil disturbance training per year. this lack of training and experience greatly increases the risk of significant and potentially deadly mistakes in a charged operational environment. >> so, the military using the military is one of the tools donald trump is talking about using. he mentions it in "time" magazine. that feels like something super fraught for the military. >> what i just heard general manner say reminds me of what i heard border patrol agents say inside the central processing center in mcallen, texas, when i was invited inside by stephen miller's now wife, katie waldman, now katie miller, to see the separations for myself. these are border patrol agents who signed up to be law enforcement officials, operators along the line. instead, they were tasked with changing diapers, and holding

infants taken away from their mothers, providing care. this is the facility that is me in the blue shirt right there in the middle, who were having nursing infants taken away from them and people like the gentleman in the green were tanked with basically becoming child welfare experts in an instant. now imagine that transposed to the u.s. military, not just inside the facilities along the southwestern border, but the entirety of the interior of the united states of america with members of the united states military who go into service thinking about protecting the homeland, and instead are going to be tasked with going into schools, according to the reporting from julia ainsley yesterday or workplaces or places of worship in order to track down and find undocumented immigrants whose only crime may have been being brought to this country as a young person by their mother or father, a generation ago, when they were seeking a better life. >> one of the things that i

think trump ushered in, in his debate, with joe biden was stand back and stand by, this very public conversation with the far right militias and this is in "the new york times" today about their desire to help with this mission. quote, a few days after the election, william tear, who runs the texas 3 percenters, a local far right militia group, wrote to president-elect donald trump with an offer. his organization could help trump carry out his plan to deport millions of people who were in the u.s. illegally. he said trump had yet to respond. a spokesperson for trump's transition team said the mass deportation plan would use state and federal resources, not private ones. but tear's offer was one of several recent efforts by far right organizations, including some that have a history of taking it on themselves to patrol the border with mexico to insert themselves into the deportation plan. >> i mean, if you talk to any scholar, that is the moment you really need to worry about,

right? in a country when people who have a vested interest in something other than working for the federal government get involved and it is just all the red flags come up, and as soon as you have a private -- as soon as a president installs a private army for whatever use, that is when you start to really worry about a country's democracy. so, look, there are a lot of -- the federal government is structured in a way so that this will be hard to do, but it doesn't mean that trump won't be able to do it, like with so many of these things, this is a wildly expensive plan to deport all of these people and you'll remember that last time he was not even able to -- i mean, he wasn't able to deport numbers, largely because they got very stuck on the cruelty, and, you know, so he would have to -- where this money would come from to finance this plan is, you know, is a real open question. there is a lot working against

it, which is good news, but i do think things like a new army is really something that we should all be really quite scared of. >> i want to add to our conversation, deputy director of the aclu immigrants rights project is back with us, lee, you join a conversation in progress among many of the same lines we have been talking over the last five weeks. and when you've got donald trump using language of using the maximum of the law, whatever that means, and tom homan basically threatening mayors and governors, what sort of planning are you able to do to protect people who could get swept up in just the sheer sort of incompetence and speed with which trump and homan seem to be indicating they will try to do this? >> yeah, nicolle, i think you're right to focus on that, because what we are hearing is that they are going to try to put in

processes that have no hearings and basically no due process, and so what that means is there is going to be tons of mistakes, you know the law is not sort of crystal clear in the immigration law. it is not as if you're here illegally and therefore have no right to stay. there are many kinds of relief that can be applied if you've been here a long time, if you have certain family members, if you're tortured when you're sent back, so it is absolutely critical that we provide people with due process and hearings, but what we are learning is that the trump administration is going to try and summarily deport people. you could be pulled out of a diner or from a school or somewhere and just be deported within hours. and so we're going to be challenging all those policies, but what is also going to be critical is that people on the ground have phone numbers to call, people in the community, so that we can rush to help them, and also there is going to be a need for individual lawyers if we can stop these summary

deportations and there are actual hearings for people to represent them. >> lee, this was something we covered on the show yesterday, but i want to ask you about it. nbc news is reporting that trump plans to scrap the policy restricting i.c.e. agents from making arrests at churches or houses of worship, schools and hospitals. this seems to cross every line again that democratic and republican presidents had adhered to when millions of people were deported and he didn't cross that line, what does it mean to you that they are saying out loud, they plan to cross that line, they plan to pursue in churches, hospitals and schools? >> yeah, i think what it says is that there is going to be no humanity in this immigration policy. you're right to point out that prior presidents have had lots of power to do a lot of really

harsh things and it is both democratic and republican presidents have stopped short of saying we're not going to make it easy for people to go to hospitals if they're in an emergency situation or have contagious diseases that could affect us all or bring their children to school, so i mean, i think what they're basically saying is, look, there is going to be no humanity whatsoever, bring all your legal challenges, we're going to do it anyway, and i'm hoping that local officials, state officials, push back on these kind of things because it is really dangerous for all of us, for people not to be able to go to the hospital or have children not in school, you know. i think it is going to be as bad as you can imagine, and far worse than the first term from what i'm hearing. >> lee, do you think trump thinks that people voted for no humanity in the country's immigration policies? >> i don't. i -- when i talk to a lot of people about this, they give me sort of an abstract vague notion

of what mass deportations look like. when you start drilling down with them and say, well, what if someone is dying, should they be able to go to the hospital without worried about being arrested? well, no, that's different. what about the person who has been here 30 years, their kids are u.s. citizens, maybe their kids even fought in our army? should they be deported? oh no, that's different. i think if they're going to carry this out full scale, i think people will push back, there will be lines they don't want to cross, just like there was with family separation in the first term. i caught a little bit of your conversation earlier with jacob. he's right, there are lines people don't want to cross. and i think it is too easy to assume he has this complete mandate when the question is just asked of people, do you want pe dee deportations withou drilling down to see what that looks like in practice. >> i mean, jacob, i agree with the political assessment, the

people didn't think they were voting for no humanity. they just feel like there is no order and this is something out of control. but that is not syncing up to the things that homan and trump are saying. trump talking about camps, homan talking about threatening democratic lawmakers. there is no humanity to going into as nbc reported houses of worship, schools and hospitals or events such as funerals, weddings and public demonstrations without approval from supervisors. that's according to three sources familiar with those plans to do so. so where do you see sort of the political friction points here? >> i reported with you, from the floor of the republican national convention, when they held up the signs saying mass deportation now, thousands of people inside that sports arena, you know, essentially having a big party around the idea of instituting something that is orders of magnitude larger than what dwight d. eisenhower did in 1954, he deported a million

mexican americans, most mexicans here illegally part of the work program. my personal opinion about it is that just like with family separation, when it was in development and talked about and starting to go out into the media, people didn't fully understand the extent to which this policy was going to be torture in the words of physicians for human rights. and i think the same of mass deportation, when you have got millions of people, there will be two, i think, front lines, one will be local officials and inside of -- i've been inside the central jail, not only the largest jail in i think by the united states of america, but one of the largest mental institutions as well, given how many people are in there, you know, suffering from mental issues, inside that jail, i.c.e. used to have a desk inside. and they were kicked out of that jail which made it more difficult for i.c.e. to go out and pick off any undocumented immigrant who may have been in there because of a minor infraction. what are local law enforcement

officials going to do? we hear one thing from officials in los angeles, and on the east coast, a different tone from someone like eric adams and then the people, the united states of america, when donald trump signed the order, he didn't say i was morally outraged like the hundreds of thousands of people in the street, he said i didn't like the sight or the feeling of people being separated, speaking wlaf he of what he was seeing on thsks television and the people protesting with incredible moral outrage. and i think it will be some combination of the two. what will local officials do? how much will they stand up to? what will their posture be and will people decide they're done knowing less, they're done buying into the political argument and they will go back to think about the morgue one like moral one like they did during family separation. >> they're not backing down from a day one plan to commence mass

deportations of millions of americans. again, how do they plan on moving them? where do they plan on keeping them? who takes care of them? who watches the children? are they out of school? it is a remarkable logistical undertaking and i want to ask all of you what that looks like after a short break. also ahead, a stunning admission from donald trump after winning the election promising to bring down prices for things like groceries, which he calls grocery, he's now backing off the pledge, saying it is hard to bring prices down. the pledge, saying it is hard to bring prices down. also later, one of the most prominent purveyors of the big lie in american politics, a high profile election denier is now trump's pick to lead voice of america, it is raising very real fears that the incoming president is looking to build a propaganda arm for himself around the world. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. so i started my own studio.

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we're back with jacob, molly and lee. there is this thing that jacob and lee are both getting at, which is it if you eliminate due process, you have no way of knowing who is getting swept up. trump is talking about deporting american citizens, if anyone in the household or their parents are here illegally. "the new york times" is reporting about another group that has been warned. colleges are warning foreign students to get to campus before trump takes office. quote, a number of schools including harvard, usc and cornell are advising their international students to return to campus before donald trump is inaugurated on january 20th. during his last administration, trump imposed restrictions on

entry to the u.s. from seven majority muslim countries. a policy that stranded thousands of students who were abroad at the time. he added more countries to the travel list and he has spoken of reimposing those restrictions when he's back at the white house. >> the quote, unquote muslim ban. what is interesting about this, they're trying to use the alien enemies act as a way to -- this is an old piece of legislation that was used during world war ii to inter the japanese, one of the darkest moments in american life, camps, in california, where japanese people were put, taken from their houses and put because they were japanese. that's it. and that's what -- that is the legal framework for doing this and i think what is so interesting about this administration is they are using a lot of these very old laws that haven't been repealed, i'm thinking of the comstock act to do things they want to do and it is really this kind of going

back to an america that many of us have never seen in our lifetimes. >> i mean, lee, this gets back to what i know you and jacob and so much have separated is about, when the policy is ensnared in the legal system, judges don't just stop it, they indict for the lack of morality of it, they call it child abuse. it feels luke s like something massive scale, one could be similarly indicted, but, two, could be so far under way that a lot of the damage and lack of humanity will happen faster than the courts can catch up. how do you address that? >> yeah, i think that's right. i think that's going to be one of the unfortunate parts of this is that the courts are not going to be able to stop everything and they're not going to be able to stop everything immediately. we're preparing now to file lawsuits on day one. but the reality is there is going to be a lot of harshness that happens and we're not going

to be able to stop all of it. and i, you know, it is a hard conversation to have with immigrant communities that there is going to be this harshness and, you know, they say, will you be able to stop everything? we won't. and i also want to stress one other thing that i think goes to some the points you've been making, nicolle, we are not in favor of -- we're not pushing open borders, but we do think there are lines over which you shouldn't cross even if you're going to enforce the immigration laws, family separation, putting the military in the streets, going after people with no criminal convictions, who have been contributing to society for years, and the other part of it is just if you are going to try to deport someone, be fair, give them a hearing, let them argue their case. and i think that is what we're really worried about, the lines being crossed and the lack of due process and unfortunately i would like to be able to say we're going to stop everything and none of this harshness is going to happen, but at the reality is it is going to.

and i think the public is going to need to make clear to your point again, nicolle, that we want, you know, they voted in some vague sense for mass deportations, but they didn't sign a blank check to have no humanity. >> so, jacob, what should it look like? what should a sane rational rule of law immigration policy or deportation policy look like? >> well, you know, i think this journalist, my answer to you is that what the policymakers need to decide. it is what was promised by the biden administration, but certainly not delivered on. what the biden administration said in the wake of family separation and lee and the aclu stopping the policy in federal court was that they were going to institute a fair, safe, humane and orderly immigration system. and what they did was rely on some of the same policies of the trump administration, particularly when they went into office, i think everybody can remember what it will look like to see the thousands of haitians under the bridge in del rio,

texas. i went to haiti and watched as the biden administration deported thousands and thousands, record numbers of haitians back to danger in haiti. i went and reported from ukraine, with you, and then watched ukrainians be led in across the border by the tens of thousands while black and brown migrants were made to wait on the other side. there is an incongruity, if i'm saying that correctly, about the way the rules have been applied in the united states of america. and that's why i believe that people feel like we don't have a fair, safe and humane and orderly system. it is a system based in deterrence and punishment for decades. the better part of a generation going all the way back to bill clinton, who literally had an official border policy called prevention through deterrence, which was meant to harm people trying to cross the united states border and there has been some version of that between every republican and democratic president ever since. and what we do know for a fact is that deterrence doesn't work. harming people, whether it is family separation or the largest deportation effort in the

history of america has never stopped people from coming from dangerous or desperate situations when they're looking for a better life. what is the alternative to deterrence? i don't know the answer to that. if i was on capitol hill, it would be the top of mind for me to listen to experts in the field, immigration attorneys, advocates, people all across civil society to understand what is the way to deliver on what president biden said weighs going to do, but very clearly was not able to accomplish. >> it feels like the vacuum in everyone's mind, they don't know what is supposed to look like, so they are susceptible to fearmongering, which is what has happened in this country. we're going to need all of you, please stay available between the hours of 4:00 and 6:00 eastern. jacob and lee, thank you, once again for starting us off. jacob's film "separated" screening tonight in new haven, connecticut. if you can get there and see it, please do. as we track the legal challenges to trump's deportation plans, we want to remind you, you can get your fill of updates on all the legal stories we cover here on

the program with the deadline legal newsletter written by our very own jordan rubin. just scan that qr code on the screen to have it delivered straight to your inbox every friday. when we come back, why donald trump is now saying that bringing down the price of groceries or grocery as he says, something he promised and campaigned on for months, probably isn't going to happen. that's next. for months, probably isn't going to happen that's next. new sensodyne clinical white, it provides 2 shades whiter teeth as well as providing 24/7 sensitivity protection. patients are going to love to see sensodyne on the shelf. kevin, where are you?! kevin?!?!?.... hey, what's going on? i'm right here! i was busy cashbacking for the holidays with chase freedom unlimited. you know i can't believe you lost another kevin. it's a holiday tradition! earn big time with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. i've been worn by celebrities, athletes, and world leaders. but i've always felt most comfortable up here, with the folks that made me who i am. i'm right at home, out here on the land.

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and i want -- groceries, very simple word, groceries, like almost, you know, who -- i started using the word, the groceries. >> a vote for trump means your groceries will be cheaper. >> it will bring your grocery bill way down. i have more complaints on grocery. >> when you buy apples, when you buy bacon, when you buy eggs. >> where the price of bacon, the price of lettuce, the price of tomatoes -- >> bacon, lettuce, tomatoes, all the everything is so much higher than it ever was. >> we're going to bring those prices way down. >> people can't afford their groceries and they're going to be affording their groceries very soon. >> on the topic of groceries, which includes items outside of the three ingredients of the blt, donald trump made promises, you heard him right there, he would bring the price of groceries down. as you saw, he made the promise as recently as this morning at the new york stock exchange, ironic he did so in front of his

"time" magazine cover because contained in those pages is a startling admission, quote, already the president-elect is moving the goal post on some of his pledges. like lowering the price of groceries. quote, it is hard to bring things down once they're up, trump says, quote, you know, it's very hard, end quote. joining our conversation, u.s. special correspondent for bbc studios and msnbc contributor katty kay, molly is still here. katty, this is this thing that everybody has said, for five weeks, the price of eggs. i believe and i understand the economic rage is the sentiment of the american voter. economic despair. but trump tapped into it without offering to solve it and now is admitting that he won't solve it at all. >> well, he tapped into it because it is out there, and he won't solve it because he can't necessarily solve it, ask all the other world leaders and political parties who have been

swept out of office in elections around the world this year because of the price of eggs, who knew people ate so many eggs, but that sentiment is not just here in the united states, it is everywhere, inflation has been everywhere since covid. it is the supply chain shock. it is actually come down a little bit more. it was worse in europe, it has come down a little bit more in europe because perhaps less money was pumped into the system in europe than it was pumped into the united states, but, no, i mean, inflation has come down. that's not the same as prices. and that was the riddle for the harris administration and for the democrats, they kept going out there and saying, inflation has come down. they were right, but that didn't mean the prices have come down and people still remember what their grocery bills in supermarkets used to be, and they're not that now. add it to this problem is actually the fact that under trump administration, if he's to do some of the things he's proposing to do and we'll talk about those, then actually it is possible that inflation goes back up again, rather than coming down further.

>> katty, we're talking about tariffs as well. let me play that for you. here he is with kristen welker. >> you are now proposing tariffs against the united states' three biggest trading partners. economists of all stripes say ultimately consumers pay the price of tariffs. >> i don't believe it. >> can you guarantee american families won't pay more? >> i can't guarantee anything. i can't guarantee tomorrow. but i can say that if you look at my just pre-covid, we're the greatest economy in the history of our country, and i had a lot of tariffs on a lot of different countries, but in particular china. i think tariffs are the most beautiful word. i think they're beautiful. it is going to make us rich. >> katty? >> well, the problem with protectionism is two can play the game, right? america can impose tariffs on canada and mexico and china, and a whole host of other countries and donald trump at one point suggested there will be blanket 10% tariffs across countries --

imports from every country in the world, higher from china even. but then those countries retaliate, they don't like having tariffs imposed on their goods and the only weapon they have at their disposal is to impose tariffs on american items. not only does it become more expensive, american exports become more expensive, levis, coke, beef, cars, things that america builds are more expensive to sell abroad and that makes it harder for people to sell them abroad, which makes people poorer in this country at the same time that the imports that they may depend on are getting more expensive. america at the moment is a net importer of food for many, many years, most of it is history. america has been a net exporter of food at the moment, america is a net importer of food, having tariffs on a country like mexico, that's going to hurt people as well. >> say good-bye to your last bowl of guac, this is from "the

new york times," quote, hours after trump's late november truth social post threatening a new round of tariffs, mexico's president claudia sheinbaum responded, for every tariff there will be a response in kind. just as a reminder to the incoming administration, two-thirds of vegetables and almost half of fruit and nut imports to the united states come from mexico. and how many avocados, molly, 90%. >> so, this is a real problem for trump's whole i'm going to bring prices down thesis because deportation makes labor more expensive, makes prices for farming, you know, for things that are farmed in america more expensive, and then tariffs, if they enact, you know, if they ignite a trade war, which is certainly what president sheinbaum is saying there will make everything more expensive too. so, again, he had -- he did -- he did enact some tariffs that did well and that the biden world actually kept going, but then he had some that really did crush farmers. remember that?

had to, you know, pay them -- had to give them tax incentives, so, i do think tariffs are really dangerous. also, i think trump is -- remember, on some level he wants to please people. and he cares so much -- again, he doesn't want to please that many people, but he cares a lot about the dow. and so, if he starts doing things that are really inflationary, and starts driving the dow down, that is going to be a sort of interesting moment for his presidency. >> yeah. it is all about the brand, not really the quality of life. how about him just admitting i can't guarantee anything? >> one of the things, look, politicians lie, they sort of fudge things, but he has never been bound to the truth in any possible way. so he made a lot of promises on the campaign trail this time that really we saw the biden administration unable to fulfill. what are you going to do? cap the prices of things? how do you make them cheaper? the mechanics of it are

impossible. >> yeah. no one is going anywhere. when we come back, we'll turn to kari lake, two-time election loser, frequent election denier is getting a big new job in the trump administration in a role where the truth is supposed to be front and center. we'll have that incredible story after a quick break. ter. we'll have that incredible story after a quick break. y'all see this, patrick mahomes is saying goodbye! patrick! patrick! people was tripping. where are you going!? he was actually saying goodbye to his old phone. i'm switching to the amazing new iphone 16 pro at t-mobile! it's the first iphone built for apple intelligence. that's like peanut butter on jelly...on gold. get four iphone 16 pro on us,

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but these freedoms are at risk. we have to fight for them tirelessly and with your help, we will continue to do so. so please go to myaclu.org and join the fight for just $19 a month. use your credit card and get this special we the people t-shirt, aclu magazine and more to show you're helping ensure justice for all. as an individual, donating to the aclu is one of the most powerful things you can do to fight for justice. but the aclu can't do it alone. they need your support now to continue defending our democracy and the freedoms we hold dear. so please join us. call or go online to myaclu.org today. thank you. we had 740,000 ballots with no chain of custody. those ballots shouldn't have been counted. we had --

>> where is the evidence of that? >> dana, there is plenty of evidence, you can find it -- i'm happy to send it to your team. the problem is the media won't cover it. and -- >> we covered this extensively. >> these monsters in the press, i shouldn't even call them the press. let's defund the press, the media. >> yeah. >> defund the media. >> maybe we can get them a uniform and send them to afghanistan. >> that would be great. i'm going to not only be the governor of arizona for four years, i'm going to do two terms, be your worst freaking nightmare for eight years and we will reform the media as well. >> she seems nice too. kari lake didn't win, she lost, she did not become governor, despite her refusal to concede her 2022 loss, she didn't become senator either because she lost again. people of arizona are not that into her, it would appear. but kari lake's problems with the truth and the media as a

staunch delusional election denier, maga supporter, prominent gop election denier, conspiracy theorist, whole kit and caboodle is helpful in understanding the audacity of donald trump's announcement yesterday. he tapped her to serve as the next director of voice of america. and it is now raising new fears that trump is clearly looking to build a propaganda arm for himself himself out of the government funded and independent news agency established in 1942 to combat nazi propaganda with unbiased facts. a reminder from "the new york times" today about what happened here during trump's first term. in 2020, trump appointed michael pac, an ally of his, former aide steve bannon to run the u.s. agency for global media which oversees voice of america and over federally funded media outlets. pac was accused of trying to turn voice of america into a

mouthpiece for the trump administration and a federal judge ruled that pac had violated the first amendment rights of the outlets' journalists. we're back with katty and molly. this is in the category of most audacious pick so far, maybe? >> first of all, a tribute to voice of america, which broadcasts every week to some 330 million people around the world in 48 different languages. i know because it is a competitor of the bbc and its journalists are annoyingly good at what they do and it is an incredibly valuable media organization that promotes the values of democracy around the world and does report free and fairly. it is sometimes seen as a kind of voice piece of the american government, but it is not usually seen as a voice piece of the specific person who is in the white house. and that's what appointing kari lake will do. the real danger i think to the voice of america for what is happening here is that it is very hard for a news

organization to -- as the bbc does, to promote itself as a news organization that reports freely without fear or favor and reports objectively. once you have taken the step of being seen as political in the sense that you are controlled by whoever is in the white house, i don't know that the voice of america can come back from that. i think the ramifications of this pick, this sort of history breaking nature of this, will last for a long time. the voice of america has always been seen as representing america, but not as representing one president. and particularly kind of having a director who denies election results and has herself promoted conspiracy theories, i've interviewed her, she gave me exactly the same responses that she gave dana bash, there was evidence out there, but she has never produced that evidence. >> i think already she is sending a signal that she will do just what katty is suggesting. last night she posted this,

quote, under my leadership, voa will excel in its mission chronicling america's achievements worldwide. the voa stated mission is not to promote america's achievement. its voa emphasizes a firewall on its website and it says that firewall, quote, prohibits interference by any u.s. government official in the on objective independent reporting of the news. >> this is not kari like seems look a natural choice for, considering her -- she said she was governor, she ran for senate and she was convinced she was going to win. the people of arizona have rejected her pretty summarily. and now she has this plan to remake this -- you know, it is a straight news service, and not supposed to be opinion and there is real difference between, you know, opinion columns like the kind of stuff i write and straight news that is just the

news with no one's opinion in there. i think they're going to run afoul pretty quickly. i mean, look, trump has always had this thing about the media. and part of it is because he sees that there is power, there is power to expose corruption. and i mean, there is a reason why this is such a sticking point for them, and i think it is really scary. >> this -- i had forgotten about some of this chapter from the first trump term. but there was a spectacular collision of what we're talking about, the truth and the politics and the first trump term. in june of 2020, to voa directors, veteran journalists, resigned after trump appointed michael pac as we mentioned. may of 2023, federal investigators determined that michael pac was examining waying to remove executives and journalists from the agency due to their perceived political beliefs.

trump, you know, thinking that there is some mandate for doing everything his way is making the most jarring and this isn't even controversial, this is someone who embodied the opposite of the agency's mission. >> look, i can see why he would want to do this. if you believe as he does that he has quasi kind of you know, authoritarian, you know, huge mandate that he has won as massively as he believes he has won, even though we know he hasn't, having control of media organizations has a very special place. i'm not for a moment comparing what is happening here to what has just happened in syria, but we knew what had happened in syria had happened because the very day after the rebels entered damascus, what did they do? what was the primary objective, it was to take over the television station and start broadcasting. you want control of media organizations.

you want them. in this case, it would be, i don't don't know, promoting, the value of, you know, populist policies, the value of securing borders against migration, the value of fossil fuel energy, for example, the value of deregulation. you can see how it is quite easy to have a sort of not even particularly subtle editorial slanting of the kinds of stories you run to promote the policies of that particular administration. the problem i really think is, okay, that happens for four years, but the damage is done, it is so hard for a media organization that is trying to be objective to re-establish a reputation for objectivity once you've been unobjective. you can -- the voa, i know, is slanted, is seen as promoting

american values, but is not seen as promoting an administration's values. i think that's going to change now. >> katty kay, molly jong-fast, thank you for spending time with us on all these stories. truly remarkable. another break for us. we'll be right back. remarkable another break for us we'll be right back. sion loss. now there's something you can do to... ♪ ( slow. it. down.) ♪ ♪ ( get it goin' slower.)♪ ask your doctor about izervay. ♪ (i. zer. vay.) ♪ ♪ ( gets ga goin' slower.) ♪ izervay is an eye injection. don't take it if you have an infection or active swelling in or around your eye. izervay can cause eye infection, retinal detachment, or increased risk of wet amd. izervay may temporarily increase eye pressure. do not drive or use machinery until vision has recovered after an eye injection or exam. izervay is proven to slow ga progression, which may help preserve vision longer. ♪ ( i. zer. vay.) ♪ ♪ (gets ga goin' slower.) ♪ so shift gears

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. one more story to tell you about before we go. after weeks of mysterious drone sightings in new jersey and others state including over warships off the west coast, nuclear sites across the west and over the cia in langley, virginia, the white house's john kirby is saying they are actually manned aircraft being flown lawfully with the pentagon spokesperson saying this, quote, there is no iranian ship off the coast of the united states. and there is no so-called mother ship launching drones toward the u.s. senate staffers are expected to receive a briefing today, as is house speaker mike johnson. however, some lawmakers say they and the public need more information after weeks of sightings. we want to thank you for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we're so grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> hi, nicolle. thank you so much. welcome