happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. just days before donald trump's nominee to lead the department of health and human services, robert f. kennedy jr., heads to capitol hill to kick start his confirmation process. brand new reporting reveals that one of his aides has been waging war against one of the miracles

of modern medicine, the polio vaccine. "the new york times" is reporting this today. quote, the lawyer helping rfk jr. pick federal health officials for the incoming trump administration has petitioned the government to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine. that campaign is just one front in the war that the lawyer, aaron siri, is waging against vaccines of all kinds. in fact, aaron siri is a critical player in the anti-vaxx movement or what rfk calls the medical freedom movement. quote, petitioning the fda to pause distribution of 13 other vaccines including combination products that cover tetanus, diphtheria, polio, and hepatitis a until their makers disclose details about aluminum, an ingreed y. researchers have associated with a small increase

in asthma cases. before we go any further we should be crystal clear in establishing the facts and science. siri is fighting to revoke use of vaccines that save lives. that's it, full stop. on the polio vaccine, the cdc says it has since 1988, quote, an estimated 20 million people who would have been paralyzed by the disease are walking and more than 1.5 million lives have been saved. prior to the vaccine the world health organization says that a half a million people were killed or paralyzed by polio every single year. but since we're doing this, the second trump administration for them, those facts, that history, that established science around vaccines appears to be going by the wayside already. "the new york times" reporting this. quote, kennedy he's privately expressed interest in having siri serve in the health and

human services department in the top legal job as the general counsel. katie miller, a spokeswoman for kennedy, said mr. siri has been advising kennedy. now, should rfk be confirmed by the united states senate? all signs point to an hhs that is a dramatic departure from every previous administration be it republican or democratic. an op-ed in "the wall street journal" points out the contradiction in a republican president appointing someone like rfk. saying this, quote, prior to kennedy's endorsement of donald trump the gop universe was clear-eyed about the radical environmentalist who spent decades on a mission to destroy the trump base. an online search finds pages of stories of kennedy's efforts to cripple farmers, ranchers, loggers, and oil workers. others outline his disdain for markets, core freedoms, and limited government. "the wall street journal" op-ed goes onto urge that republican

senators, quote, save the president, as if that's their job now. as if the dynamic in the republican party during the entire trump era of politics hasn't been complete subservience to donald trump. and the truth is trump appears to like rfk and share his skepticism about vaccines. while he defended the polio vaccine in an interview with our colleague kristen welker, he told "time" magazine he could get rid of certain vaccines. saying this, quote, if i think they are dangerous, if i can they are not beneficial. we should note all vaccines administered in the united states go through an extensive approval process with multiple rounds of trials. trump adding this, quote, the autism rate is at a level nobody ever believed possible. if you look at things that are happening, there's something

causing it. pedaling, amplifying, platforming, a now widely debunked conspiracy theory linking vaccines to autism. it's simply not true. but what rfk and the company he keeps says about the future of public health in this country is perhaps the biggest storm heading our way. and it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. critical care physician, professor of pediatrics and pediatric disaster response expert, dr. michael anderson is back with me at the table, nbc news correspondent vaughn hilliard, co-host of msnbc's the weekend. and licia menendez is back and the reverend al sharpton is here. start by telling what polio is and how it was eradicated. >> it's a viral disease that causes massive paralysis. not only your extremities but your ability tobrthe.

i start off these conversations by saying how many people do you know had polio. my grandmother, god rest her soul, had polio. we had eradicated this disease from the united states and from the world. it is a life devastating life threatening disease. i love the cdc shows how many lives have been showed by this safe, very effective vaccine. also in "the new york times" yesterday was also a premmer for physicians reminding them of these vaccine preventable diseases, how deadly they are, and how horrible it would be specifically for kids but really for everybody if these diseases came back. so polio is one example of a horrible disease that we have eradicated because of vaccines. >> and does the vaccine need to go away? and we should be clear they're petitioning to get rid of it. but it seems that simply not adherence to a vaccine schedule could expose some kids to risk.

could you talk about what the vaccine protocol is like and what the risks are if it isn't adhered to? >> the risks are very, very high. look when we have measles outbreaks where communities for some reason have marked decrease in the mmr vaccine uptake and you get an outbreak of measles. if we have kids, large numbers of kids that aren't vaccinated, there's a very high probability, yes, indeed, polio will come back and potentially spread. it's almost just insane we're having debates about safe, effective therapies that have eradicated life threatening diseases at a time when we really need to protect our kids. and it's a very, very safe vaccine. as i say just one example of vaccines that save lives. >> this individual dr. aaron siri, did some pod casts as just about all the trump picks have

done. a ttle bit of that for you. >> so much to talk about, but really i just want to look forward. i want to look at the cases we have going on right now because we could sit here and do happy dances over all this that's been achieved but it's not over. let me ask you this question to start out with. i think a lot of people go, well, it looks like the government -- you know, bobby kennedy's taking the government. why are legal cases going to be important? why not just say we did it, it's over? >> absolutely. to the extent that robert f. kennedy jr. is able to really rein in these federal health authorities, and we're talking within hhs you've got 85,000 employees, 1.$1.7 trillion department, 13 operations, numerous offices of the secretariat. it's a sprawling, massive behemoth, and i think if anybody can do it, i hope that mr. kennedy -- we hope to hope soon

call him secretary kennedy. >> i mean, so the plan to take over the cdc and the fda was the plan all along. trump has gone along with it and amplified some of that debunked conspiracy theories tying back scenes to autism. what's happening right now in the medical community? are physicians being retrained on how to spot cases of polio and measles if this goes into place quickly? >> i'm sure we will get to that point. once again, that "the new york times" article was almost a slap in the face of i have to remember what measles looks like, i have to remember how to diagnose polio. these diseases have been eradicated. one sidebar for a second. i have wonderful pediatrics and colleagues that work at the nih, that work at cdc. and they wake up each and every morning trying to make this a safer world for chirp.

it's offensive to think some sort of massive cuts are going to make kids healthier again. we have so many programs that have improved childrens lives including vaccines that we need to keep moving forward and address a number of health care issues. >> vaughn, let me play some of your interview with rfk on these issues. >> you have been a crusader on questioning vaccines. are there specific vaccines that you would seek to take off the market? >> oh, i'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. i've never been anti-vaccine. >> you will not take any vaccine that is currently on the market? >> if somebody -- if vaccines are working for somebody, i'm not going to take them away. people ought to have choice, and that choice ought to be informed by the best information. so i'm going to make sure the scientific safety studies and efficacies are out there, and people can make individual

assessments about whesht ther t product has is going to be good for them. >> mr. siri is turning that into a lie. mr. siri is petitioning the government to take the elpolio vaccine off the market. are mr. siri and mr. kennedy close? >> yes. but i think this is where i think the confirmation process comes into play. rf kennedy jr. must get confirmed. it's not just democrats concerned about his positions on vaccines. republicans, too. still by and large in the united states people trust vaccines. in order to get confirmed he needs the support of u.s. senators. at the same time what i think is so interesting about robert f. kennedy jr. is a political figure and a soon to be government official in contrast to other nominees of donald trump is that he is somebody who has not shaped and molded himself over the years. he for decades has been fighting vaccines and then openly discussing writing books,

questioning the science that has been peer reviewed consistently time and again that has said vaccines on the market today are safe. and that is where donald trump's deference to robert f. kennedy jr. is also unique. donald trump claims to really be the smartest guy on most subject matters. and if you listen to his interview with kristen welker over the weekend, he rit iterated this a time, he was going to listen to bobby kennedy and so what bobby kennedy came up with on vaccines. and then bobby kinied would come to him with what hooepgs should happen to vaccines on the market. i think that is what is so interesting about bobby kennedy he's been staunchly against vaccines historically. once he were to get in that government position there's little reason to believe donald trump would not in his own words not take his advice. >> alicia, we have little kids of the sort of regular -- >> you have the liltest. you have the ones still under 5,

which has got to be particularly scary. >> but i mean the thing about vaccines is you don't have to eliminate them to endanger kids, right? you just have to cast enough doubt maybe you miss the four months or forget the six-month booster or forget the one-year booster. and someone said to me this week our kids are going to know kids that die. that's the reality. >> i am as alarmed as dr. anderson, i've learned in the process of getting ready to talk about this story is very often polio is asymptomatic. you don't know they're paralyzed until someone spreads it to someone who is paralyzed. it's not enough to broadly ask rfk jr. about his positions on vaccines. just like we saw in that interview with you, vaughn, he's now bobbing and weaving. he needs to be asked about the fact he founded, drew an

organization that is anti-vaccines. he needs to be asked about his association with someone like this attorney, who let me just underline a few things you said in that script. they are now sitting down and doing the vetting of other health officials who would come into health and human services if he were to be appointed secretary, and one of the questions they are asking them is what do you think about vaccines? they are using that as a filter as they build their work force. there's also the reality if rfk jr. were to take over hhs, he also would have -- fda would come under his purview. all those petitions you referenced from siri, who do those petitions go to? they to go to the fda. one of the questions i would ask if i were a u.s. senator, republican or democrat is if you are in charge of hhs are you going to commit to not intervening in these petitions to the fda over these vaccines? >> well, they seem to be making

it abundantly clear that the answer to that question is no. >> correct. but i believe they have to be on the record, and they have to be pressed on it. and they have to be pressed on it in a way that says exactly what you underscored, right, which is there's these vaccinations. there's the fact they're trying to put this pause in place, but also the question i think what they're trying to say if you want it, you can get it. that's not how vaccinations work, and they need to really get at that piece. >> if they outlaw or if they cut down on the distribution of vaccines, by definition you can't get it if you want it. for him to say during his interview, which i thought you handled well, that if people that if he's working for them, they can keep getting it. how do you keep getting something they're asking the fda to bar it? it's ciic to suggest that.

i remember in the height of covid when we had many black churches taking care of getting people tested and covid shots, they literally marched on black churches in harm saying stop distributing these kind of medical attentions and these kind of vaccines to people in our community. so no one has a confusion at all about robert kennedy, where he stands here. if you're going to take a stand, many of us have that are controversial, standby it. but you can't have it both ways. >> i mean, dr. anderson, can you just -- i don't know if you've ever treated anyone or taken care of anyone with measles or mumps or polio, but what does that disease do to a child? >> oh, it can be devastating. this is not a bad cold. measles especially in children under 5 can be life threatening with a terrible pneumonia. and obviously once again back to the polio, it paralyzes your respiratory muscles, so yowl

become ventilator dependent. and if there's not enough resources, these patients can die. and i'd like to double click on one thing alicia said which is so important about danger to kids and you said as well, nicolle, there already is danger to kids because we're seeing families more alarmed about if our vaccines are really safe. my dear friends who are general pediatricians continue to have to -- and of course they'll do it because they want to support their families, but it's already becoming a danger because we're having these silly debates about vaccines and do they cause autism? no, they cause adults. vaccines cause adults because they help get kids through to become healthy adults. so there's already a danger that we're having these debates that have already been settled. >> it's -- it's amazing. we'll show you more about this war on science and vaccines look like. no one's going anywhere. also ahead for us still to come, trump has threatened to push the limits on mass deportation and could go so far as to deploy the united states

military on u.s. soil to do it. how those in our armed forces are responding today. and later in the broadcast, republicans appear to be lining up behind donald trump's controversial pick to lead the fbi. someone who has expressed over and over again his deep distrust and disdain for the agency. in a turn around for the gop's longstanding appreciation and respect for the men and women of the fbi and the rule of law in this country. all those stories and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ter a quick b. don't go anywhere.

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we're all back. i want to read some of what this intake form looks like, vaughn, if you want to work at the health and human services department for rfk jr. quote, the make america healthy again intake form is certifiably comedic and a little gross. this is according to puck news. the form asks candidates to answer questions by selecting responses such as, quote, i don't have much interest in having sexual experiences with another person. quote, i believe in things many others don't like having a sixth sense, clairvoyance, and telepathy, telepathy, however you say that. and as an adles want i had clear occupations. and this i used my physical appearance to draw attention to myself. when i reached out to the trump transition team for comment spokesman brian hughes confirmed

the page is real and being used by kennedy's team. what is the question i consistently use my physical appearance to draw attention to myself designed to attract or repel? i'm asking a serious question. is the answer designed to bring people in or push people out of hhs? >> i think that there is -- i wish i had a more specific answer for you, nicolle, besides saying that i think there is a certain group of people that are around robert f. kennedy jr. they have a following online, on podcasts, that frankly has been elevated from fringe to a certain level of mainstream. and i think there's an understanding there's a certain small pocket of people they entrust to work at the highest levels of hhs, cdc, fda going forward here. but i think when they're looking at who's going to fill the roles of these political appointees on down, of which there are

hundreds within the hhs, i think that that is where these questions become pertinent. >> let me -- >> i want to believe you're reading it wrong because it doesn't -- >> i mean, what is -- i mean you're a doctor. dr. anderson, what does i don't have much interest in having sexual experiences with another person? is it a management question or a medical question? >> you know that it's rare that i'm at a loss for words, and i'm -- i'm just kind of coming up with other things on the checklist like do you have experience in taking care of patients or in public health or in making sure that kids are safe and well-cared for. so i have no idea what that one means, but i would sort of like to add a couple others that i think maybe weigh a little bit more. >> i think that's such a good answer, right? it's not just that this is wild, it's that there's an opportunity cost in not using the correct filter and not actually asking if someone -- which is something

we have seen with most of his nominees. right? number one, do you have the experience and competence necessary in order to get this job done? number two, are you fit enough to actually execute this job? that's sort of a testament -- it's as though he used that same questionnaire on all of his nominees. >> well, that's the threat. the threat is that we are beginning with all of his nominees to normalize the absurd. >> we're not. >> not we, we, but i'm saying they're moving the country there, the more they get away with this being done in terms of questionnaires being said, and people are told let's not talk about or let's not deal with it. that normalizes it. this is not normal stuff. to ask people that are going to work at fda or health and human services about their sexual activity is nuts, and we need to deal with it like that. >> i guess i want to -- i don't

want to be without curiosity about why trump is attracted to this and why the voters who selected him -- and he ran with rfk so they knew this was part of the deal. i think there's some things where some people say, well, i didn't know kash patel would be the director. but he campaigned with rfk. what did trump get if there's a case of measles and mumps in america? >> i don't think donald trump wants that. i think bobby kennedy, i think his team around him, i think they truly care about the health of kids in the united states and overseas. >> which kids? >> of all kids. >> the kids in samoa where 93 kids died after he went and cast doubt on their vaccine program? >> and cast doubt. i think we get to in 2024 people

generally -- and this is not just health related here, but this is about conspiracies and the question of government, of the deep state, of elections. i think all of these things are pulled from the same part of the brain and people at theirfier fingertips, they can go read a lot of the material here. and that material is a lot more than the peer reviewed research for decades. i think that is where rfk jr. in the early 2000s didn't have the same following he has now. >> it doesn't just come from the brain, because joe rogan spent time with rfk not just michael anderson. it's that conspiracies have been pedalled by some of the most prom independent and heavily platformed celebrities in our politics. >> you're right. it's easy good eto the salacious headline podcast video as opposed to read the science or

talk to your nurse or physician practitioners. it's an easy way out. i keep coming back to that checklist. we've got to make sure that science and physicians and nurses and public health officials are helping lead this discussion because kids are at risk. and samoa is a really great example how things can go south really quickly. >> this is a great example from "the new york times." and a lawyer has asked the food and drug administration to revoke -- that's not true, right? >> well, i just wanted to understand because my understanding of it is when you go back to the original vaccine, part of it they felt it was incredibly imoral to with hold a vaccine you knew could work from some parents and their children. i think if what we're interested in is debunking misinformation,

dr. anderson, can you just speak to that, to this idea of testing a vaccine against the placebo given that's the argument siri is making here. >> it's amoral, it's immoral. it's dangerous because once again we have the facts and we have the evidence. and by the way i keep coming back to it. how many people do you know with polio? we have eradicated that disease. it is safe and effective, and any sort of revisionist approach to this is dangerous. testing something that is known to be safe and effective against placebo, chirp can suffer and children can die. and that is just completely unethical. >> i just -- yeah, i mean we're doing this. thank you for talking us through it, to both of you. dr. michael anderson and vaughn hilliard. you think he'd get through? >> i do think he gets through. >> i think they all do. yeah. alicia and rev, stick around. up next we'll turn to trump's plan for day one mass deportations and his vow to go

as far as he can to make it happen, including using the united states military on american soil to help him. reaction from a retired u.s. major general right after a quick break. don't go anywhere. general ghrit quick break. don't go anywhere. mmmm, kinda needs to be more...squiggly? perfect! so now, do you have a driver's license? oh, what did you get us? with the click of a pen, you can get a new volkswagen at the sign then drive event. lease a 2024 tiguan for zero down, zero deposit, zero first month's payment and zero due at signing. limited inventory available. big news for mahomes! i'm switching to iphone 16 pro at t-mobile! it's built for apple intelligence. that's like peanut butter on jelly... on gold. get four iphone 16 pro on us, plus four lines for $25 bucks. what a deal. ya'll giving it away too fast t-mobile, slow down. for more than a decade farxiga has been trusted again and again, and again.

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very, very bad thing. even to say it for political purposes to get elected, i think it's a very, very bad thing. let alone actually doing it. >> we're crossing that line. looks like we're actually doing it. it is the nightmare scenario. one in which the honorable men and women of the military, of our armed forces at the direction of their commander in chief start doing this, what trump has threatened to do. start going door-to-door seeking out the so-called trump-described, quote, enemy within, training their sights on the very people they swore to protect. perhaps more likely, though, is a scenario in which donald trump uses a combination, a mishmash of any of his powers, the insurrection act to deploy the military to round up noncitizens or at least folks he believes to be noncitizens. is that really so much more acceptable or permissible? beyond all possible doubt questions of practicality

associated with the military becoming a domestic policing force on american soil, like the fact that they're not trained to do that, there are questions, principle ones laid out by general randy manner this week on capitol hill. >> involving the military in a political issue like mass deportation would erode america's trust in military. it protects all of us regardless of our politics from the possibility of foreign aggression. when the military is tasked with carrying out domestic policies that may be controversial to some, it undermines the foundation of that trust. that in turn will increase risk in morale, recruitment, retention, and readiness. and all of these impacts carry serious consequences for our national security. gentlemen, for these reasons -- and ladies -- for these reasons

i strongly encourage any future presidential administration to keep integration enforcement, and our military separate. >> joining our conversation is retired general for the national guard, general randy manner. thank you very much for being here. trump has indicated this is very much on the table and going to happen. your thoughts on what that will look like and feel like for the men and women of the military. >> well, as i said at the senate judiciary hearing on tuesday morning, this is really going to be -- have a negative impact on our national security relative to the readiness of both our regular military units, if they would be used as well as the national guard. those people who have not served in the military may not understand that the national guard only has 39 total days per year to train for their combat missions. and then secondarily and equally as important, of course, is to

respond to homeland emergencies such as hurricane relief or forest fires or earthquakes and so on. so 39 days to do all of that, anything you take away from that, will absolutely degrade the readiness of our national security. >> in the first trump presidency there were men like general john kelly and secretary mattis around trump and his most aggressive immigration policy folks, people like steven miller, who push back. it's clear that trump plans to assemble a very different cast of people. where inside the military would any resistance either from a readiness standpoint or a moral standpoint or cultural standpoint come from? >> the chairman of the joint chiefs is the advisor to the president on all manners of national security. from the military perspective.

so it would fall back to him to ride that advice and counsel. the president is the commander in chief of the military, so in the end a president can make whatever call that he desires within the limits of law. unfortunately, we've already seen the supreme court say that there are fewer guardrails on the office of the president than existed years and years past. so this is something where there is a chain of command, and the principal person that would receive those directions and have, quite frankly, very pointed conversations would be the chairman of the joint chiefs. >> former chairman of the joint chiefs, mark milly, did something extraordinary in the first trump presidency after being in lafayette square with donald trump he made a video apologizing for being dragged into the kind of thing you're talking about, domestic politics and being seen at that event.

can you just help us understand why it is such a line for the men and women of the military to cross, something that general kelly spoke about it as well in an interview a few days ahead of the november election, why is it such a big deal and why it is so important to keep the men and women of the military out of domestic operations. >> again, people from every state and every community, every city, every town, every rural area have to ntsds understand te united states military represents all of us. they come from all 50 states, the other territories and the district of columbia. they come from liberal families. they come from conservative families. they come -- they're male or they're female or they come of all religions. and it's something where they come from different parts of the country and they come together in many cases not even having met people that are different from them in terms of where they may have been raised in their hometown or their city or their

neighborhood. when they come together, and this is very, very important, the military takes them and replaces some -- some of those ideas that they might have had, that might have been biases for or against different people or peoples or ethnic groups or races and instead replaces them with concepts of honor and respect of others. and this is something that is fundamental to the military. the military supports all of us not one particular one political party or political viewpoint. the dilemma is that if indeed the national guard or military is used for domestic operations foassisting on the border quite frankly for security at the border, that is a legitimate operation -- other than those kind of things it could obviously divide not only the military among those people who

would support ctively and privately -- when i say actively i mean it was prohibited over communicating things over active duty or while on reserve or the guard. but the idea it would divide the military into those who think it's a great idea and those who quite frankly don't, let alone those people in the community who may feel likewise. >> alicia, what is the implication in the every sort of conversation that's come before this moment about immigration and trump's promise for mass deportation. >> it's something i want folks like us who are u.s. citizens to understand is if you live in community with people who are undocumented, if your house is on fire, you want them to be able to call law enforcement and ask for help and not be fearful for themselves that they will end up tied up in a situation. that is part of why you've seen sort of this separation where you do not want law enforcement that are not immigration law enforcement dealing with

domestic situations, because it actually makes everyone in a community less safe. i think the other thing we need to talk about is just the number that's associated with this. you know, the reason that you're hearing so much from home and the reason he's on cable news is because he does not need to go through a senate confirmation, so he can go on all the right wing shows and talk utwhat he wants to do, which means you and i have visibility into what haesz doing. he's saying it could cost $86 billion to carry out mass deporpation. even he thinks that's the minimum. a lot of folks think this could be closer to $1 trillion. as we talked about this before republicans will try to move this through reconciliation. there'll be questions whether tom tillis, susan collins are willing to vote for something. they start moving budgets around, right, they start taking money from cbp and moving it from dhs so they will have

resources. you do not want trump is talking about which is currently taking troops positioned abroad and moving them to the u.s.-mexico border. you want to think about this in terms of a world of resources and how those resources are best deployed. is the best deployment of those resources, is the best spending of $1 trillion in american tax money going after moms and dads who are trying to do better for their kids? >> what do you think the vast majority of americans think? >> i don't think the vast majority of americans are there at all. >> or even the trump voter. >> the trump voter i don't know, but i think they talked about this as though they were going after criminal or violent offenders, and that is very different than going after folks who have lived peacefully in this country for years, who have deep ties to this country. >> and american born children. >> and american born children. i don't know if you caught this because i wanted to ask you

about this. he also said i want to setup a phone line to alert immigration authorities on undocumented people in their communities. could you imagine the racial profiling if you can call in someone who's walking down the street? >> it's an invitation to racist profiling, and it will get totally out of control. but even the logistics of what he's talking about, he has not really laid out. yes, it will cost a trillion dollars, but you're going to deport them where? do you have an agreement with the countries that they came from? how do you even know what countries they came from? are you going to hire personnel to track down do you come from mexico, do you come from ecuador? the logistics of doing is ridiculous because it will cost super money, take super time and you have not worked outoon agreement. you can't just put people on a plane and land it in some other country's field without having clearance there while you're

talking about tariffs against mexico at the same time. i think if trump supporters understood how loosely this was thrown together with no thought, they have to say wait a minute we're going to blow a trillion dollars and really not be able to execute this. >> just the idea of moving 11 million human beings are they on trains, buses? would they get off and what happens to the babies -- >> and house them, who's going to pay for the housing? who's going to guard them, where's the security? i mean the enormous expense of this, i don't think anyone has realistically talked about. he's just throwing things against the wall and seeing what sticks with his voters. >> no one's going anywhere. we'll all be back on the other side of a break. we'll ask this question. how are immigrants rights groups repairing to push back against all of it? we'll look at that next. we'll look at that next.

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like everything, it takes a little planning. or, put the money towards a down-payment... ...on a ranch ...in montana ...with horses let's take a look at those scenarios. j.p. morgan wealth management has advisors in chase branches and tools, like wealth plan to keep you on track. when you're planning for it all... the answer is j.p. morgan wealth management. everyone's back. general, let me start with you. what sorts of questions should be asked in the confirmation process of mr. hegseth that would regardless of what the answers are give some clarity to the men and women of the military about what their missions will be in this space? >> i think a lot of this is going to have to do with just saying what -- what does he envision in terms of the scope of the involvement of the military? please remember that it is a legal and legitimate role to be

helping to secure the southern border or northern border for that matter in terms of watching it, in terms of providing transportation and losts. the challenge is if you increase the scope beyond what it is already, then it's going to start to impact our readiness to resist those that would do us harm around the world, whether it's the chinese or the russians or whether it's taking away from our ability to strengthen our relationships with our allies. and, of course, to take care of our family members and -- i'm sorry, our service members and their families. so i think that asking questions about the scope of this and how that would be carefully managed will be absolutely critical. the idea that he is going to move rapidly not only will far exceed the resources that are already part of i.c.e. or the customs and border patrol, but it would obviously start to negatively impact again the readiness of the military, and

that's where we have to think in a much more balanced way about what are the tradeoffs for the national security of our country. >> i mean trump is already adapting language that seems the intent on getting ahead of that by describing it as an invasion from which the military has to protect us. people who are here illegally or who represent a threat national security or otherwise are already on a pathway to deportation, not citizenship. so what do you think or what do you hear that he describes all of the people he'd like to deport? and the number's anywhere from 11 to 17 million from his own campaign surrogates, when he describes that as an invasion? >> i think it's very important for me to say that from where i sit, from my experiences, i really am fully capable on answering questions obviously on the impacts of our national security, the impacts relative to the civil rights of american citizens who might be inadvertently targeted, how the

illegal immigrants may be collected and managed and moved and processed and so on. those are issues that i don't have first-hand experience with, and that's also, by the way, part of my argument, that those responsibilities should be firmly in the hands of those that have received the training and the expertise to do it appropriately, fairly, respectfully, and effectively so that no one is adversely harmed. so, again, back to the military, the most important message i can say to each of you and to our listeners is the military should not be involved in actually handling or involvement directly with immigrants or people who are allegedly immigrants. >> retired major general randy manner, thank you. we'll give alicia and the rest the last word on the other side. don't go anywhere. the other si. don't go anywhere. —uh. —here i'll take that. [cheering] ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar

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visit indeed.com/hire rev, you get the last word. >> i think that we have at best a not well thought out plan in terms of deportation by this president-elect. at worse a sipical kind cynical dangling something at his base he knows he can't finance and accomplish. and the bad part is the collateral damage to those kids that are here looking for a better life, wanting to stay with their family. it's like they don't matter, and we should never in any way condone that kind of immorality

and insensitivity. >> it's like the polio vaccine, we're old enough to have been vaccinated. it's the kids who will be victimized. alicia, rev, thank you for spending the hour with us. up next for us how anti-fbi sentiment is now the norm in donald trump's republican party. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. eak. don't go anywhere. this week on chewy, shop and get a $30 egift card to use on treats they want, toys they love

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i shutdown the fbi hoover building on day one, and reopening the next day as a

museum of the deep state. >> hi, again, everyone. it's 5:00 in new york. that man, kash patel, is reportedly based on his accounts, on a glide path to being confirmed as the country's next director of the fbi. so says "the new york times" in new reporting on the warm welcome patel received on capitol hill this week from republican senators. "the times" reports that the senators' embrace of him, quote, reflects the extent to which a deep distrust of the fbi has become republican orthodoxy. following trump's lead, republicans in congress have emerged as the chief antagonists of the bureau, deriding it as an institution rotted by corruption and partisanship. it is the culmination of a remarkable turn around that has been years in the making for a party that traditionally had been giving unyielding support for the nation's law enforcement agencies. with the current director, christopher wray, a lifelong republican, stepping down and at

the moment a seemingly easy path ahead for patel, trump is set to remake the fbi as well as the wrest of the department of justice in his image. from his interview with "time" magazine, quote, just how radical trump can be depends in part on the buy in of the justice department, which is set to be led by former florida attorney general, pam bondi, one of the defense attorneys on his first impeachment. trump has vowed to seek retribution against his political enemies saying the likes of biden, manhattan district attorney alvin bragg, special counsel jack smith and others would face investigation and potential prosecution. trump was coy in this interview with "time" about whether the doj would target his domestic political adversaries saying that the decision would be left to bondi if he's confirmed. quote, that's up to her. trump doesn't need to say it out

loud because bondi already has. >> when republicans need to take back the white house, and we will deep state republicans they were hiding in the shadows. but now they have a spotlight on them, and they can all be investigated. >> as for his part, mr. patel has made a list for us of the 60 names whom he says are members of deep state. one of those on the list, sarah isgur writes an op-ed in "the new york times" today saying she does not want a preemptive pardon. saying, quote, if we broke the law we should be charged and convicted. if we didn't break the law, we should be willing to show that we trust the fairness of the justice system that so many of us have defunded. and we should shouldn't give permission to future presidents to pardon political allies who may commit real crimes on his behalf. that is where we start the hour former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew wiseman is here. and also joining amander

carpenter is here. and the president for media matters for america, angela carosone is here. anyone who's read through over the summer and, andrew, i know you did, too the reception of kash patel in republican circles, it would be more surprising if he was not received, that the pages of project 2025 are some of the most radical and some of the most explicit. >> yeah, for sure. he's really internalized there's a deep state and at the center of the deep state there's the fbi. there's the center of revenge and investigations. you need to go in there and first break it, and then the second part, there's a lot of focus on the idea he's going to break it and that's part of his intention. but the second part you alluded to with project 2025 when you break it, you reconstitute it what do you turn it to into?

and you turn it into an instrument of revenge and power. the part about it i find so disturbing that oftentimes gets lost because there's so much discussion about what he represents and what he's going to do is that there's another ingredient to patel beyond his world view, and that's that he's so internalized the narrative that he also believes the ends justifies the means. meaning he believes so much of the deep state narrative over the past eight years he's -- break on his own discussions, rules, bend rules, do things that are totally out of bounds because that's necessary in this moment to restore justice, and that's the part that's so troubling to me because there's this plan and then he also has the will and the rationale for how you go ahead and implement and execute that plan. >> i mean, amanda, that -- that i think articulated is -- is what would happen. but i think taking half a step

back and marinating in the why. i mean after 9/11 george w. bush -- robert mueller i think was six days on the job when 9/11 happened. and it was robert mueller's mission to never again fail to connect the dots and to sync up with the cia and protect the homeland from any further terrorist attack. and the fbi was viewed as being on the front line and had bipartisan support largely, but was held up as a model of sort of walking the line and protecting the country and being aggressive and tough. republicans supported the fbi, and they supported robert mueller's leadership of the fbi. the demonization of the mueller probe is the first symptom of how that form had turned. and i think there's a lot of things that explain how radicalized the republicans have become against an agencies that

constitutionally is very conservative, small "c" conservative, it's not political. but its ideals and values and mission are very conservative. but there has been a complete vacuum. no republican defended jim comey when he was fired by trump. no republican defended andy mccabe even though the alleged transgression had nothing to do with domestic politics, and the whole smear campaign against him was a fabrication. left.s never a figure of the everyone that the right has come after has either been completely nonpartisan or if there's any political leaning to be deduced from their careers, they lean right. what is this really about? >> oh, you're on mute, mandy. stop and start over. >> sorry. you mention 9/11, and my brain kind of wept into overdrive there because i think we need to think about what is the purpose

and mission of the fbi, and that is to prevent terrorism, prevent things like cyber crime, and prevent maligned foreign influences in this nation. and you talk about the mission that the fbi has heroically performed in the days after 9/11 and through that to protect this nation. and aside from asking what kash patel would affirmatively do that is in contrary with our democratic values in going after political enemies, i think you have to ask about what won't be done at the fbi in that scenario, right? once the focus shifts. kash patel, as you mentioned you put up the enemies list. he describes people like sarah isgur flores, who are worked with in the past, along with people like liz cheney as the greatest threat to democracy. that is an absurd, untrue statement. to compare, to even put those people on any kind of lists as a

threat to this nation in comparison to what the fbi should be focusing on and doing is such an abject lack of focus on the true purpose of that job. and listen, let's be real we live in a dangerous world right now, right? there's all kinds of things happening. there are people who are watching our officials closely. and if he does go through with his intended promise to dismantle the fbi just at a base practical level, what does that mean? and what kind of national security vacuum will exist in that kind of an environment? these are the kind of questions i know republican senators on the hill are reluctant to oppose this nomination. i think there's maybe too much focus caught up in the fact he's a loyalist, and maybe we should start really zeroing in on those practical questions of what happens when the fbi takes its focus on real threats to this nation and decides that people on that list are more deserving

of attention. >> i mean andrew weissman, this is your expertise. this is part of your extraordinary resume. what does it mean to have someone like kash patel run the fbi? >> i think it's part of a sort of anti-law sort of regime that we're going into. it bears remembering that you start with donald trump. he is a convicted felon. he does not like the fbi because the fbi was along with their bosses at the department of justice part of the group that brought criminal cases against him, and that he fought mightily to never have go to trial. the one case that wept to trial is convicted, the other three he successfully delayed. and so he's running on a very

anti-rule of law platform, and he is going to, i think, do that now when he becomes president on january 20th. and kash patel is part of that. and i think for all of us that are breaking down the fbi, i think what he really is going to be doing is turning it from an agency that he claimed with no evidence -- no evidence at all was weaponized against donald trump when, in fact, all of the courts had addressed that claim, rejected it, and said this was not selective prosecution, that there were facts here. the one jury that allowed to hear it, convicted beyond a reasonable doubt unanimously. and, you know, this -- that is what sort of is going on here. that is a sort of anti-rule of law regime that, i think, is

going to result in kash patel trying to run the fbi in that way. and we are a far cry from the likes of louis free and robert mueller and even james comey who all were qualified. and to me the one thing i would say to senate republicans looking at this is, as your other guests have noted, is this is no time for someone to learn on the job even if they had the right mind-set and were fact-based and law-based. this is somebody who simply does not have the depth of knowledge and experience that you want in that position. >> i mean, can we go back another half a step, though? what is the -- i mean, angelo, the pledge to root out corruption atop an agency led by chris christie's former defense

attorney and donald trump's han picked replacement for jim comey it means what? who are we rooting out and getting rid of? it's been run by a series of republican men. i mean what is the allegation of corruption rooted in? >> i mean it starts all the way back to 2017, and really, you know, this idea of a deep state, it had been percolating in the far-right fever swamps but really fox news turned it into a narrative that actually now as you noted when you were talking earlier is sort of just an accepted norm in the halls of the senate. eight years ago that was a weird, radical thing. people talked about it, yeah, got some attention. then hannity picked it up, fox news did, and tucker carlson refined it. when you actually look at what the ingredients of it are it gets to your question, which is who are they referring to? what they're really referring to is basically anybody doing their job in a vacuum and focused on

the job itself. so the norms, the rules, the process, the experts. so anyone that was an expert, anyone part of the status quo and that wasn't aligned would their world view. and in particular in practice what does that mean? that means anyone who put up any kind of resistance to orders or instructions or guidance in the first trump administration that, you know, that because those instructions either were out of bounds were not acceptable or not a good use of resources. anyone that was seen as sort of holding the line is exactly what they're referring to. and that's the part i find so troubling about even this conversation. not this one but the fact we even have to have it is that trump announced kash patel as an appointee as if that's a normal thing. and christopher wray resigned. that's not a normal thing. part of the reason the term is set at ten years is to avoid this possibility, this prospect.

part of what they're doing now is get people to self-select. christopher wray he set an example. it means anyone -- we talked about this in the summer in it first trump administration there were people directly around trump that were saying, wait, that's not okay, this is out of bounds. this is how you get close to an acceptable policy. but there were more than just five people at the highest levels doing that kind of work. there are people that do that work everysial day regardless of who the president is that sort of help make things work, and those are the people that they're focused in on. that's why they have a database of 11,000 people where the first level of whether or not you're going to be in or out is the loyalty to the first maga movement. expertise is no longer the criteria. it's about loyalty and sort of smashing the status quo to implement this new world view. we are in the process of a massive transformative change, and that's what i find so sad and disheartening about the senate saying, yeah, it's less

actually about how they view patel, which is important but they've actually accepted a radical overhaul of what has been a very important part of our justice system almost overnight. >> andrew, to angelo's point about dogs that don't bark. christopher wray leading at the end of a term is the opposite. no director is supposed to leave at the end of any president's term. a day on either side would be less jarring and inappropriate than what he's going to do, which is to ride out with the current president because it suggests, it actually ties his career to biden which is the opposite of what you want to project with an agency when he says he loves the mission and loving your agencies. tying your tenure to the end of the biden administration suggests you're part of it. the fbi is never a part of any administration. and i wonder how you undo that damage. >> i couldn't agree more that

chris wray set an example here that is hurepd s. remember he was appointed by donald trump, and the -- what you have is a complete difference in models. you have president biden who has said, yes, this was the fbi director whether i like him or not or whether i think i could have done better by appointing someone else, did not do that because of the institutional concern that the fbi director is supposed to be a ten-year term and is supposed to be above politics. and with donald trump you have the exact opposite model. you saw it with jim comey in his first term, and you're seeing it now. but to anthony's point, so you have that -- that sort of separate model from donald trump. and you have that from christopher wray, but that doesn't mean that the senate has to go along with it. and to me that you're seeing this complete sort of rolling over and, you know, let's start

with chris wray who had absolutely sort of no pressure on him in the sense of he could have just done the right thing and said for the good of the institution, which he, by the way, testified to under oath at his confirmation hearing about the value of the ten-year term. and he is really belying all of that now. and so the sort of last hope here is for the senate to do its job and to realize that nobody wants a law enforcement system that is politicized. and that -- that is where we're going to. >> i mean a man with the loudest voice warning senate republicans about kash patel are republicans like mark esper and john bolton. mark esper's allegations against kash patel is he allegedly jeopardized a mission. john bolton's is broad and sweeping. these are not critiques from liberal democrats or even the

media. they're from people who worked alongside him. do you think any of them will be persuasive? >> i hope so. i mean here's the thing, if you are -- i'm putting myself in the mentality of thinking like a republican senator and arguments that may be persuasive to them. if you care about this presidency, you have an obligation to try to make it better. i mean clearly on paper there are nominees who are unfit for this job on a base level. i mean the fact an fbi director probably couldn't pass an fbi clearance probably should be compelling. but let's just talk about the basic level of competence and how you execute these missions and do you understand the functions of agency and do you have the right kind of focus? i think that should be the approach going forward because just saying that these appointees or nominees are loyalists to the president is not convincing. of course any president is going to have someone that is loyal to his agenda even though these nominees take it to an extreme fashion. and so that's why hoping the focus could be going forward in

a way that can be somewhat constructive. republican senators although they were far too quiet for my taste about the reasons why, some way or another were effective in sinking the gaetz nomination and getting someone clearly bondi who's no one better as you've shown from the previous clips, we have to be fighting for the best nominee we can get in these undesirable circumstances. >> i mean to your point, the whole republican party is loyal to trump, so loyalists should actually for better or worse encompass a whole lot of options. andrew weissmann, amanda carpenter, angelo, thank you for having this conversation with us today. when we come back, there's brand new reporting about the man donald trump has chosen to be his advisor on the middle east. we already knew that he is the dad or the father-in-law of trump's daughter, tiffany trump.

but what we're learning beyond all possible doubt that is pretty stunning. we'll have that story next. also ahead the harrowing story of a coast guard commander who nearly died after suffering a miscarriage and was denied health care under the military's strict limits on abortion care. another example of the dangers women face in this country even in states that don't have abortion bans on the books. deadline white house comes back after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ne white hous after a quick break. don't go anywhere. i thought i'd get a wax figure of myself. cool right? look at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis

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administration's policy towards the middle east is going to be compromised by the fact that they are making money off of the very people that they're sitting across the table from and supposedly having a conversation about the interests of the united states. we'll see really bad policy made in the middle east because he's got unqualified people there. but more so, he's going to put his wealth and his family's wealth first, the national security of the country second. >> that was senator chris murphy on the reality of u.s. policy in the next administration where it's clear based on the picks that you do not need experience or even routine background vetting. just look at who donald trump chose as his advisor to the middle east. his name is musod bulos. he's widely reported as being worth billions of dollars, a deal maker in trump's words last week. he's also part of the family. he is the father-in-law to trump's daughter, tiffany trump.

but according to new reporting in "the new york times" this is the truth. quote, records show that mr. boulos has spent the past two decades selling trucks and heavy machinery in nigeria for a company his father-in-law controls. the truck dealership is valued at about $865,000 at its current share price. mr. boulos' stake according to securities filings is worth $1.53. big difference. as for his career as a lawyer, something trump also touted last week, "the new york times" reports this. quote, abc news has reported he graduated with a law degree from the university of houston, but the school says it has no record of that. instead he graduated from a separate school, the university of houston downtown in 1993 with a bachelor of business administration degree. and most importantly there's

boulos', quote, extensive experience on the international scene according to donald trump who picked boulos to advise him on one of the world's most complex regions. "the new york times" reports this, quote, boulos says this week he's not visited the region in years. joining us ambassador mcfaul plus msnbc strategist and senior analyst matt dowd. let me start by saying i think there is enthusiasm for people outside the traditional and elite expertise models. that said, lying about the virtues of people who are outside the expertise and experience models suggests that you don't agree with that. and it is clear that either trump was lied to or trump lied to us, the public, about his

daughter's father-in-law. >> well, that most certainly all looks to be the case. when i looked at the number $15.03, i $1.53, i thought it was a typo. when i go to have knee surgery, i want a knee surgeon to do it. when i go to get my car fixed, i want someone who knowwise about cars. and when i want someone who negotiate national security in the middle east, i want expertise. call me a stanford elitist professor where i believe having actual knowledge makes you better at the job. >> let me just say, i agree with you. my only point is elections have consequences and trump can pick whoever he wants. >> exactly. and i was just going to get to that. and i also strongly agree with that premise. he won the election, he gets to

choose his team. but this is -- i mean i was just on a call with very expert people on syria just two hours ago. this is going to bea very extremely difficult situation to manage what's going on inside syria, and we need competent people to do that. and second, if they're not straight with us about their past, it's going to be very hard for them to have credibility when they're dealing with, in my opinion, some incredibly daunting negotiating tasks that are before whoever is the actual middle east advisor for president trump. >> ambassador mcfaul, let me just press you on the lying piece. i mean the reason appointees are vetted is to make sure that they're not targets by blackmail by our adversaries. and i wonder what it says to you that, again, either trump was lied to or he lied to the public when he announced mr. boulos

about his basic details of resume and background. >> well, i think your meta point is the right one. we need to have background checks. there's a reason we have this system in place, precisely for the reasons you just alluded to. number 2, it really undermines my confidence in the vetting process that the trump transition team has. okay, say whatever, you just talked about the fbi. let's say they're not the ones to do it. well, can we have some competent people to do it? because, three, look at what's happening right now. we're having this conversation. by the way, thank you to independent media for doing the vetting process. i'm glad we're having this conversation. but it undermines this person's ability to do their job. and so lying about it to president-elect trump, i don't know if he did, i want to be clear about that. but i think we need to understand how difficult that makes their jobs to do. if you do not have legitimacy, it'll be impossible for him to do this job should he eventually

be the one to do this job. >> matt dowd, perhaps one of the greatest symptoms of how transformed our politics is in the time of trump is that the corruption and the grift, which is a radioactive accusation for any politician of any party in any normal time is another one of those things that trump's base seems to shrug its shoulders over. and this, again, nepotism in its purest form. lying about the resume, and someone clearly lacking experience or qualifications for the job he's been tapped for. >> well, you know, it's his base. but by extension it's the standards now of the republicans in the united states senate. what are their standards for who should hold public office? i mean to be honest it doesn't surprise me that we are getting these nominees after we just elected a president who lies

about everything, who is openly corrupt on so many different things, who has no, you know, interest in expertise or specifics on anything. he's the president of the united states. he's the commander in chief. and now he gets to appoint people. so why wouldn't we think this was going to happen in the course of this? and so my thing is donald trump is donald trump. and who he nominates are who he nommates. nominates. in the end the only bulwark against this is some rationality in the republican senate because they're going to hold the levers of power. they're going to have a majority in the senate. they can determine a lot. but it seems as if -- maybe there's one or two, but it seems as if the super majority of the republicans in the senate don't have standard in any of this anymore. and i'll -- i was going to say i'll disagree with one point but maybe not disagree. that this nominee in the middle

east, you know, and michael mcfaul saying he won't be able to accomplish the mission, i actually don't agree with that. i think he's going to accomplish the mission because it's not the mission we all would give him. but what's his mission to go -- what is his mission? i think his mission is corrupt at its core. his mission is to make everything to the betterment of the trump family in the course of this. and sitting across the table, as your previous point came into this, with people that have a financial interest, i don't think this new nominee has the traditional, you know, strategy that any of us would think that somebody going to the middle east would have. but i sure believe he's going to do exactly what donald trump wants, and that's his mission. >> it's remarkable. i mean, that's probably a great reality check for me. i do want to show you, though -- i mean a reality check for everybody of what's going on in the middle east. i'll show you what tony blinken was talking about today in jordan.

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we spent time talking about understandably the situation in syria and the conviction of so many countries in the region and beyond that as syria transitions from the assad dictatorship to hopefully a democracy.

what's happening in syria does have important impact and very important syria and iraq and many countries in the region will make best efforts to support the syrian people as they emerge from the assad years. >> ambassador mcfaul, can you just sort of pull this thread on how delicate and complicated this dynamic is in syria and the region right now? >> so the state collapsed, right? assad's in moscow. i wish this would have happened a long time ago when i was still in government. we tried to make this happen. the russians blocked us, and it's a tragedy for me personally so much killing has happened when we ended up in the same place. but there's not a state there. you have the forces there that took over. they're the leading group, right? you have the folks that we back on the kurdish side. you have another group. it's called the syrian national

army that the turks support. and then you have isis, so nobody is effectively in charge. there are informal negotiations between them all, but i think it's a very dangerous situation when none of them agree about what will be the new constitution let alone the word democracy that secretary blinken used. that is way in the future, if ever. i think just preserving peace needs to be the goal, and it has to -- it needs our assistance. it needs the united states and the turks and the other countries in the region and the middle east to help them get to that place. >> and let me, for you, matt dowd, share what's been reported from mr. boulos and the region. quote, mr. boulos appeared on plump's behalf in arabic language media before the 2020 election in michigan home to the

largest percentage arab american population in the countrych boulos pitched trump as the candidate in the best position to bring peace to the middle east. what role trump intends for mr. boulos is unclear. in an interview mr. boulos said that his white house responsibilitied would be advising. just dove tailing on your point, the position on the front end is designed not to be transparent at all. >> yeah, i mean and donald trump -- i mean, it's ten times as awful, but we often have laughed through the awful in the course of this. but, you know, donald trump has -- you know, has sailed his pirate ship across the potomac and unloaded, you know, the most dregs of people in this. and, you know, he's the lead pirate in this elected by the american public.

and, you know, i don't want to turn philosophical, but let me do for a moment and maybe at some other day we can have a longer conversation. i oftentimes wonder what's the best strategy to deal with all this. i oftentimes think about this, and there's i think two options for democrats in the senate or in the house and others who are concerned about it. there's one option is let's mitigate the damage. let's warn people about the damage and let's try to mitigate it, and let's try to make the best out of a bad thing. that's one strategy, and that's what seemed to be what most people are falling on. the other strategy is -- and i'm not saying which one i pick or which one. the other strategy is let donald trump screw this up so bad that people realize how bad it is. i mean at some point the american public has to see, and i hate to say this but suffer the consequences of what this means. and i think every time we attempt to mitigate it and then

stop him from doing a bad thing, then the republicans say, well, he never did any bad things. you can't go and said here's a list of 100 bad things he could have done but we stopped all these things but then they tell the american public judge donald trump on what was really bad but it never happened. i actually think it's a conversation we need to have is what is the best thing. i know people will suffer under this alternative, but at some point i think the american public has to see and feel how bad this is. >> well, let's do that on monday because i think the story we left the last hour with, polio, you know you read it and you can't feel anything about despair at the thought of children too young to have voted or have anything other than live by the ies and rules in this country have do anything

but suffer under rfk and his rules on vaccines. i think it a really important question. it is the question, but it's sort of like choosing between bad and awful. but we should. we will have that conversation. we will do it on live tv because if we're choosing between bad and awful let's do it on live tv. thank you both so much for being here with us today. we're going to switch gears. we're going to cover this next. how women serving in the military are being denied health care because of the federal government's strict limits on abortion access. the harrowing story of one coast guard commander who nearly lost her life. we'll bring you that next. we'll bring you that next.

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♪far-xi-ga♪ ask your doctor about farxiga. as women and their families all across the country brace for the incoming trump administration and its impact on reproductive freedom, there's some new reporting in propublica who highlights the dangers that women's access to care is already severely curtailed. even in blue states who have been at the forefront of trying to protect reproductive health. quote, the night the emt's carried elizabeth nakagawa from their home bleeding and in pain, the tharp they'd wrapped her in reminded her of a body back found the narrow steps and into the ambulance, she felt a stab of fear. she might never see her girls again. she'd been scheduled to have a

surgical procedure called a dny to remove fetal official after losing a very wanted pregnancy. but that morning she was told the surgery had been canceled because tricare, the military's health insurance plan, refused to pay for it. while her doctor appealed, nakagawa waited, and then the cramps and bleeding began. nakagawa hemorrhaged for four more hours before doctors performed the surgery tricare had refused to authorize. all this happened in onoma, california, where abortion is legal and abortion is protected. for publica writes elizabeth is still pressing for answers for why she was denied vital care for so long. quote, the abortion policy in theory is supposed to protect life, and in my case it did the opposite, nakagawa said. it almost led to my children not having a mother. joining us now is the investigative journalist on that piece of reporting from

propublica. it is harrowing. it should never become familiar, but for publica is at the front lines of reporting how lethal abortion bans are for pregnant women, women in some cases are the mothers of others, women who in some instances want these pregnancies. talk about this case. >> absolutely. thank you for having me. and like you said propublica is at the forefront of that investigative journalism, and this case is different from those cases which have already been reported on in states where abortion bans are crippling. but in -- in this case for military service members, they're adhering to a decade old federal ban, which it doesn't matter what state you are in, which you've said akagawa was

located in california. so that ban restricts you the same we've seen in those other stories of women who have been denied or delayed care. and nakagawa's case really is just echoing those other stories. but as a military member it happened in california. >> what is the process for, you know, in an emergency where her life sounds like it was if not on the line, very much threatened by her lack of access to health care, again, in a state that provides it legally. what recourses does she have? who does she call? what happens to these women? and how many more women could be going through crises like hers? >> yeah, great question. so the steps that nakagawa took were, you know, because she was just so distraught that she

could be denied this routine health care for a fetus that had no heartbeat. so the first step that she took was to try and find answers on her own, and she was informed that she could go seek care outside of tricare and pay out-of-pocket, which would have cost about $35,000. and if she were to do that, she would not have follow-up care. so there would be no funding for any mental health or any follow-up treatment that she could report. so that really was her only option. for other women who are facing a fatal fetal anomaly and can't find care in the military, their option is to either seek an abortion outside of the military

or to continue to carry that fetus to term, which for many of them is heart breaking and not really an option. >> erin, it's an unbelievable piece of reporting. as the days and weeks go forward, we love to continue to turn to you and your reporting on this. thank you very much for joining us to talk about it. >> thank you very much for having me. >> another break for us. we'll be right back. reak for us. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ holiday memories made by alexis brought to you by etsy. i was out on a delivery, when i came across a snake... a rattler. fedex presents tall tales of true deliveries there we were, driver versus reptile. our battle was legendary. (♪♪)

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thank you so much for letting us in your homes for another week of shows during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. "the beat" with ari melber starts right now. >> happy friday. welcome to "the beat." we are living in a time of greatest wealth gap in history and billionaires