get through because they were closed by assad. there is a route to stability there if they can create an inclusive government that respects the diversity of the country. >> and again, these post revolutionary moments are so remarkable. >> because so much can go wrong. >> so much can go wrong but also you see incredible moments of humanity, and compassion, and celebration, and pluralism, and new social hierarchies. social hierarchies being upended, and reconstituted in all kinds of remarkable ways. it is really amazing. it is a pleasure to have you here. >> thanks. >> that is "all by now you have likely seen time magazine has named donald trump as their person of the year. and i am sure that is the only story donald trump wants you to hear.

"trump is not actually as all- powerful as he would like for you to think." this is probably easier if i show you what i mean. time is going to report that earlier this year trump was on the verge of supporting a 16- week federal abortion ban. then, on april 2nd, trump was shown a document titled how a national abortion ban will cost trump the election. well, what do you think happened next? spoiler alert, just six days after seeing that document donald trump changed his tune. >> my view is that now no-- legal standpoint the states will determine by vote or legislation, or perhaps both, and whatever they decide must be the law of the land, in this case the law of the state. >> at least before the election pressure worked. public opinion mattered to trump, and it slowed his most extreme impulses. but now, the election is over, and donald trump can't run

again, so he doesn't need the votes of american citizens. but, he does still need votes in congress. republicans may have control of the house and senate, but the majorities are slim, and we have already seen how that means congress can still act as a check on trump's power. three weeks ago trump's first pick for attorney general, former florida congressman matt gaetz with looming threats of a house ethics report about his alleged sexual misconduct hanging over him gaetz withdrew his nomination. trump told time magazine that he got gaetz to withdraw. when it became clear that both weren't there trump told gaetz matt, i don't think this is worth the fight. meaning, this is still a fight. this week, the fight between trump and the senate was focused on trump's pick for secretary of defense, pete hegseth, who faces allegations of sexual misconduct of his own as well as allegations of alcohol abuse and financial

mismanagement. all allegations he denies. for whatever reason, trump and his allies appear to still be putting up quite the fight to get access confirmed by the senate. here was a republican senator from alaska, lisa murkowski yesterday, ascribing with the message from trump basically felt like. >> we got you here, and if you want to survive, you had better be good. don't get on santa's naughty list here, because we will primary you. >> don't get on santa's naughty list, because we will primary you. those are fighting words, because this is still a fight. join me now, stuff writer at time covering congress and national politics, he is the person who wrote the person of the year profile of donald trump as we mentioned, and also with us, tara senior political correspondent and host of somebody has got to win the podcast. thank you both for being with

us tonight. tara, i want to start with you on the pressure campaign. senators are experiencing, especially senator joni ernst, to confirm pete hegseth for pentagon chief. donald trump is not someone who has a history of putting out a ton of political capital with respect to any of his allies, but, in this instance with hegseth it seems like he's putting out quite a bit. is that the case? and if so, why is he willing to spend that on hegseth, when he wasn't on matt gaetz? >> it does seem like he is willing to put out some political capital, but donald trump doesn't measure political capital. he will give someone an endorsement, and then he will take it back if that person doesn't look like they are winning. he has endorsed two people. he doesn't measure the weight certain politicians do in there certain amount. he believes it's infinite. he seems to at least be standing by pete hegseth for now . i really think that these attacks on hegseth from the

heritage action um-- they will run ads in her backyard, but not just ads in her backyard, but those of bill cassidy, mitch mcconnell, lisa murkowski, other members who might be seen as-- like les, you know, less willing to go along with the pressure campaign. and, there's also obviously trump's pitbull mike davis, who is, you know, threatening to hire pi's on these senators to pick up dirt on them. it's getting really dirty right now. but, i also think a lot of these people are doing it to curry favor for trump at the end of the day he believes that these nominees, it's on them whether they stand or fall. and, if pete hegseth falls, he will just move on to another. he doesn't think that reflects badly on him. >> well in terms of what does reflect poorly on him, eric, one thing you talked about in

your piece for "time," with person of the year being trump, this notion the american public, isn't fully prepared for the ultimate chaos that could or may ensue with a second trump term-- do you think that chaos begins with the senate picks and whether they get confirmed? >> well, i think you know what americans may not be prepared for is the scale of change and potential for chaos a second trump term could bring. he is offering destruction on a massive scale he believes he won on a promise to change washington, so he ultimately will try and deliver on the agenda he campaigned on. i think to an extent you are seeing that play out in the transition process, but you are also seeing him put people in place much thicker than last time. he is having his personal touch on it all, he's very deeply involved in the decision-making process for those who are fulfilling top cabinet positions as staff positions that don't need senate confirmation. but i think what you will really see is the fact trump likes to put people through the

ringer and see how they endure through a test. because, one of the things he admires most of the people who work for him is resilience in their ability to withstand incoming from the other side. >> it's interesting you say that. one of the things donald trump does quite characteristically is that he will, depending on the situation and what's necessary, make his positions very malleable. and we talked about that in the opening with respect to abortion. you have also seen that, eric, as it pertains to some of the promises he's made even around things like lowering grocery prices, when he has now basically walking back some of the things he said on the campaign to change people's expectations. given that, and you did this person of the year piece, how does the american public develop actual indexes or metrics to measure donald trump office success this time around? >> well, as you say, donald trump sometimes keeps those measurements of success quite abstract. we asked, if you failed to

lower the price of groceries will that make your admission of failure? he promised very strongly on the campaign trail that he was going to lower prices. this was a key part of his message. it was also one of the key frustrations that was expressed by voters who supported him. and he basically said it's hard to bring prices down when they have already gone up . we are going to try, but it's very hard. that is moving the goal post if you will, from what he said on the campaign trail. i think it will be on numbers on the press and others to pin him on specifics. inflation right now is at a certain level. what can we expect it to be when you are president? what will real wage growth be? what will the consumer index be? things like that. but right now it's wholehearted promises of american renewal and success. >> let's continue to talk cabinet, but let's switch gears. tara, i want to talk to you about your journey down the rfk jr. rabbit hole. you reported you essentially went to fill out one of these

applications to work under rfk jr.. and, what you saw when you went down this rabbit hole of an application, basically he is asking for applicants to choose some very unusual prewritten responses, such as "i don't have much interest in having sexual experiences with another person." "i consistently use my physical appearance to draw attention to myself to" or, "i have chronic feelings of emptiness." listen. i have applied to a lot of jobs, i know a lot of people out there apply for a lot of jobs. i'm hoping, tara, you can help me make sense of the purpose of these questions. >> it's very strange. and honestly that is maybe 3 of 100 very bizarre questions on this form. it's a 90-minute form right away. it mostly starts with pattern assessment and word association, that's about 30

minutes. then it moves on into these very bizarre personality questions. i think they are looking for people who have like schizophrenia issues, narcissist-- jordan peterson is the person who is behind this form. he is a psychology professor, who has sort of gone to the right, almost to like a certain status as a hero among a lot of people who believe in rfk jr. and the maha movement. it gets very weird . you know, it says before you take this be well rested, have recently eaten, and make sure you will not be disturbed um-- some of the other questions and responses are modesty doesn't become me. i get upset when people don't notice how i look when i go out in public. and here's another one. i can usually talk my way out of anything.

so they are obviously trying to weed out a specific type of person um-- and also try to find people who will go along with their agenda, which is obviously not exactly you know, mainstream. so i think that is why they are putting out these personality tests. i asked the trump administration. they said rfk can solicit nominees however he wants, and then they have to go through that vetting process from there. but, yeah. that's-- that's how they are doing it. >> you know, it causes me to wonder, tara, with everything else that's going on with some of the other picks we were talking about, hegseth, kash patel, and some other picks that are controversial, whether these sorts of things regarding rfk jr. will fly under the radar of the public, because they are not necessarily being discussed. is there any possibility that because of the more extreme picks that he has made and some of the bigger challenges they have faced that this is going unnoticed by the public, or even the senate?

>> absolutely. something like this would be-- you know, a major question mark in a senate hearing or before the hearing process, like why is this intake form somehow qualifying you for working for you now-- the u.s. agency that handles health. right? um-- but right now we have way bigger issues. even rfk himself. right? he said that wi-fi causes cancer um-- he has suggested covid-19 was planned -- and he has seen somewhat according to my senate sources, who will be confirmed easily. one quipped to me i guess we will get rid of seed oil when they think about people like tulsi gabbard um-- who has showed that she is sympathetic to vladimir putin, and went and visited assad after he gassed his own people in syria.

kash patel comes into the fbi with an enemies list. and they are still trying to get through pete hegseth. i guess the senate is just, wait and see, and keep your cards close to the vest. if you show them joni ernst you will have a tax coming from all directions, and it's better to hold off until later in the process. we are halfway to inauguration day. and so those holdouts are trying not to show their concerns for now. >> eric, one quick question before we break. how much do you think in terms of the chaos of these senate picks is resonating with the american public? or do they just see time person of the year donald trump and think i must be doing a good job? >> well, i don't think that the senate picks are causing a great deal of anxiety or consternation for a majority of americans. i think there's been polling that shows a majority of americans think that trump is

doing a good job filling out his government. so, i am not sure just how much widescale the american public is feeling weary of it. i think a certain segment of it certainly is. but we will ultimately see the effects and consequences of trump-style governance when he takes office. i think we will see someone aggressively try to concentrate the powers of government inside the executive branch so trump can carry out a really radical agenda that um-- we haven't seen before. >> eric cortellessa, tara palmeri, thank you both for making time this evening. still had this hour, nearly 4 years after the january 6th capital attack arrest and prosecution of rioters continue despite donald trump is about to pardon insurrectionist on day one. but first, president biden commutes the prison sentences of more people than any other president in any single day. i will be talking with the reporter who broke this story right after the break. i am charles coleman jr. and

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president joe biden made history this week by using one of his most absolute powers to commute the sentences of nearly 1500 people, the largest single- day grant of clemency ever.

these commutations involve people who served their sentences in home confinement during covid and successfully rejoined their families and communities.president biden also pardoned 30 people convicted of nonviolent crimes. this follows a decision to grant a full and unconditional pardon to his son, hunter, earlier this month. a president's pardons are always scrutinized, but this expansive clemency orders and biden's final days of office comes as he faces criticism as he considers pardons to political foes donald trump has targeted. washington, d.c. bureau chief and white house correspondent, thank you for being here. you broke the news of biden's decision to commute these sentences, and you did it with me. thank you for breaking that news. can you talk more about why

biden has decided to issue so many pardons? >> first of all you know, charles, there is an uptick in the last year for pardons, but this president wants to leave at the bank. he wants to show america that he is still president, and he did try to be transformative. now, um-- right now joe biden ties bill clinton and barack obama for the most clemency's, forgiveness if you will, or relief, than any other president. bill clinton and brock obama, tied with 62. now we expect this president in the coming weeks before january 20th or maybe on january 20th before noon to offer more clemency's. mostly nonviolent, but you go down a slippery slope when you get into violent crimes and

things of that nature. but, they are reviewing the justice department, the office of pardons, the white house counsel's office, the president, his staff, they are reviewing with an uptick of calls, requests, etc. >> speaking of slippery slope there was a lot of thought that, had donald trump not won perhaps president biden might not have issued the pardon for hunter the way that he did, and perhaps, because he did not issue or would not have issued that part of that perhaps he may not have issued as many pardons as he is now. is there any validity to that sort of snowball. that began with donald trump being elected and the potential for exposure for hunter biden to the legal system further than he already is? >> so, first of all, this back- and-forth whether he was going to pardon hunter, or if he wasn't going to pardon hunter, number one, the president is a human being, and that's his son. understanding-- vendetta-- the

incoming president, or his cabinet has against him and his family as well as kamala harris and others, he said i'm going to do this now, because if he had done this on january 20th at noon people would have been up in arms, because he would not have gone to talk about it. he did it on december 2nd, got it out of the way, so he moved on to other pardons, and we are expecting a lot more as i said. and then going into that issue of the retaliation, charles, there are a lot of people-- on the kash patel list um-- and then there are others who i have been talking to, who are making inquiries, or people who you would be surprised that are within the government that you wouldn't be surprised about

that they are concerned, and they are expecting to lose that position and also afraid of retaliation against the incoming president and his administration. >> april ryan, thank you for breaking this very important news, for all you do, and for being here tonight. coming up, the fate of the department of justice's efforts to hold january 6th rioters accountable, especially in the face of an incoming president who has called the event a "day of love" and has vowed to pardon them his first day in office. fice.

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will come back. nearly 4 years after the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol federal authorities are continuing to arrest rioters who took part in a violent insurrection. this week a man from florida named george gonzales was charged with multiple felony offenses, including charges related to assaulting police officers, and seduction of government property. now to date federal prosecutors have secured over 1100 convictions related to january 6th, and additional arrests are reportedly expected. however, the time for applying justice and holding january 6th rioters accountable appears to be running out. during an interview with time magazine released this week resident

alexa donald trump said, that one of the first acts of his presidency would be to pardon most of the capitol rioters, saying it would happen "in the first hour i got into office, may be the first nine minutes." which means they years of hard work by the justice department could soon unravel at the stroke of donald trump is trump's pen. -- how do you think attorneys within the doj, u.s. attorneys are reacting to the pledge that donald trump has made to pardon january 6th rioters as soon as he gets into the white house again? >> i got to tell you when i was growing up my mom had a copy of the serenity prayer in her living room, in our living room. do you remember the first line? god grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot

change. right? i think it's that mindset that so many prosecutors have when they hear donald trump's rhetoric. they are simply ignoring that as they focus on the cases in the work in front of them. i also think, charles, there is clear acknowledgment that there is a difference between what donald trump says and what donald trump does. just go back and rewind the tape if you will to donald trump's very first campaign, where he said hillary clinton, we are going to lock her up. we are going to build a wall and make mexico pay for it. we will eliminate the federal deficit, we will replace obamacare and replace it with something beautiful. he has a list of promises, and he doesn't fulfill them. so i think is clear acknowledgment of donald trump off his history in this regard. >> now and think about you have talked to the sunday morning saints, now we have got to talk to the friday night friends. now, if you are responsibility

is to prosecute cases against january 6th rioters and you hear that potentially in less than two months time all of your work could just be washed away because of these pardons, how seriously can you take going after these folks with respect to the investigations, the indictments, the prosecutions, and everything that goes into a case, how legitimate do you see your job as being? and if you are the communications person how do you sell that to the public? >> i think if you were one of these prosecutors you have to keep in mind the people you are fighting for. i am reminded, charles, the per five law-enforcement officers who lost their lives as a result of injuries sustained on january 6th. and i think the country owes them um-- an aggressive prosecution. they deserve to be um-- they deserve to have this case ,

these cases, fully adjudicated. people holding them, those perpetrators accountable. i would also say another thing is that um-- there is story after story of defendants who have seen the light, who have been working with prosecutors um-- to hold other people accountable, who have acknowledged that donald trump um-- lied to them, and they are trying to become productive citizens. so i think between what i started with and this realization, i think that's what has got to keep you going as a prosecutor. you cannot be so concerned about what donald trump may or may not do. >> now donald trump has made a big deal about streamlining government efficiency. he has elon musk and vivek ramaswamy lined up with his government efficiency department to cut back the fat.

i need you to help me understand, continuing with these prosecutions only to result in pardons or vice versa for that matter, how is this not a serious waste of government resources, particularly, if within the first, as he said, the possibly nine minutes of his presidency, he erases all of the work that's done? i can't see that. help me understand. >> yeah, i can't exceed either. i think what donald trump is doing with floating these pardons is rewrite history. when you think about what happened on january 6th it is built on a foundation of lies, that the election was stolen, and we know it wasn't stolen. and i think that is what he is essentially trying to do is rewrite history and shape the narrative. he is essentially trying to potentially use this as a political tool. and that should concern all of us who care about the

constitution, who are proud democracy defenders. >> political tool, he said care about democracy. you are someone who has been on the inside particularly from a messaging standpoint around the doj. we know that the conversation around donald trump, kash patel, fbi, doj, there is an extreme concern that it will be weaponized in a political way to go after donald trump's political foes. if you are the communications director, how do you-- message, and also steer the attorney general, to make sure that the doj remains an independent and democratic institution that is not subject to the political whims of the president? >> listen, i think this is a lost cause, just based on the people that donald trump has appointed here.

i will just start with the attorney general nominees. he has a good resume, charles, but it requires independence and judgment um-- and it requires an acceptance of what court rulings are even if you don't agree, even if you don't agree with them. pam bondi has embraced election to nihilism. i know we are probably running short on time, but al gore conceded to george w. bush on that recount, i worked on that campaign. it was tough for his supporters and staff members, but that's what happens when courts rule. you accept the outcome and move on with your lives. however disappointed you are. pam bondi, the attorney general nominee has not moved on tucci has-- attorney general bill barr embraced in terms of

election denialism. so i am concerned about the people trump is putting around him, they have loyalty to him and are putting that above their loyalty to the constitution. >> anthony coley, you have taken us to church, history, and the doj segment. thank you for your time. daniel penny was acquitted for choking jordan neely to death on a new york city subway to tomorrow he will be watching the army-navy game alongside donald trump and jd vance. i will discuss how that happened and what it says about the country we are living in. stay tuned for more coming up. .

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we do business differently from the other guys. we design and test our own tools. and sell them directly to you. no middleman. just quality tools you can trust at prices you'll love. ♪♪ welcome back. vice president-elect jd vance is pouring fuel on the fire of a national controversy involving the killing of an unarmed black man in new york city. earlier this week daniel penny, 26-year-old white marine corps veteran was acquitted for the killing of jordan neely, a 30- year-old homeless black street performer. in may of 2023 jordan neely entered a new york city subway car and appeared to be experiencing a mental health episode. daniel penny had been a passenger on that train car and put neely in a chokehold which ultimately resulted in neely's death. the case itself has become a national flash point with many

liberal and progressive advocates idling penny should have been found guilty while many conservatives have rallied around penny as a vigilante hero. now the vice president-elect has waded into that debate. jd vance announced penny will be his honored guest at the army-navy football game saying daniel's a good guy and new york's mob district attorney tried to ruin his life for having a backbone. joining me now to discuss this is new york city public advocate jamani williams. thank you for being here, my friend. i want your dance reaction to vance on penny as someone who has a backbone and should be celebrated in this moment. expect the question is what are we celebrating? let's be honest about what we are celebrating at best, we are celebrating a person who unintentionally perhaps killed a homeless man was having a mental health episode and came

onto the subway car asking for money, and why we celebrate that why all of a sudden a dead person, jordan neely, is now not the victim, daniel penny who actually had no accountability held on him is somehow the victim and should be celebrated. we see this too often. who you decide to celebrate and why. we should at the very least be honest about it. i hope jd vance is being honest about why he is saluting this particular person. i will say i don't know daniel penny, but i do know that he decided to go to the bar and have a drink after. now he's deciding to go to a football game and be part of this celebration. and that is a choice he is

making which was different before. >> whereas you may have decided to act in this moment out of impulse you are now making a choice to sort of be celebrated and propped up if you will as a hero in this moment, which i don't think many people have discussed. what are the dynamics about this that non-new yorkers may always appreciate, is that because new york city is such a progressive city in terms of political ideology, people don't necessarily take seriously the class lines that exist within the city that may have contributed to how people process as far as the jury this ultimate case and came up with this verdict. can you just speak to how that dichotomy between new york as a progressive city, but also sort of really strong class, and in some times racial fault lines, with the story? >> we should be clear that new york city is one of the most segregated cities in the country in spaces in the country, and that's about where people live in where people go to school. as progressive as we want to be sometimes how we live is not the same. and i would always say if people would just think about

if this was reversed, and it was a homeless black man who choked to death a former white marine who was having a mental health episode, how would we be viewing this? who would be celebrated? and who wouldn't be? and that's really important. and the thing is we have to remember people actually told daniel penny to stop during those six minutes, because he was no longer whatever the threat was. i don't want to downplay what people were experiencing on that train. if you are from new york city you have all been in a situation and wondered what would happen if something went down. i try to allow for that, but you should not be allowed to kill someone, particularly because you were afraid of what the person represents. end up being black, and being homeless, that combination is a hell of a thing. jordan neely said, i'm hungry. penny said he had to intervene,

someone could have intervened with food and we would have seen what would have happened different. expect one of the things i think needs to be discussed and i am curious to your thoughts. you mentioned the officer who killed eric gardner. we have seen it with kyle rittenhouse. we have now seen it with daniel penny where the right maga if you will, the extreme far right decides to take these vigilantes and propped them up as heroes. how dangerous do you feel like that is both politically and practically when you don't have a sense of context, when you really don't understand how the dynamics in new york city actually function to take daniel penny, taken to the army- navy football game and put him up as a hero on a national level, how problematic do you see that as being? >> it's very problematic and dangerous, because you are now conflating victims and heroes and what should be allowed in

society. you should want someone to intervene if someone needs help. you should also say that you literally just should not be able to choke someone to that even if it's an unintentional act. i will add to that that we had the mayor of new york city that literally said daniel penny did what new york city should have done. and these kind of words are very dangerous for the people who are most vulnerable in our city to begin with. the people who need our support. there is no one who is going to say that jordan neely wasn't failed. every step of the way. but that's not what we are lifting a peer. what we are doing is lifting up the person who accidentally or unintentionally killed this man, had no accountability, and as much as he is talked about is saying i will allow these folks to put me in a point of

view that's very harmful for this nation. >> i have to ask so we can end on some sort of note of promise. how do we as new yorkers and americans begin to address the other systemic failures that affected jordan neely and brought him to this point? what can we do? >> one, i think we have to make sure we say and, not order. and i think people have trouble doing that. daniel penny may not have meant to do this, and he did. if we would have taken care of what jordan neely needed to many times in his life we would not have gotten to this point. instead of bringing daniel penny to football game we can discuss what resources new york city needs to address the chronically homeless and chronically mentally ill. but that's what they want. they want to celebrate something else. hopefully we can respond with the humanity where we can calm things down and address things

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yesterday a federal appeals

court in louisiana struck down a rule that required most of the company's listed on the nasdaq to have one woman and one person of color, or one person from the lgbtq community on their board of directors. this rule was approved more than three years ago by the securities and exchange commission, and it was part of a pattern. in 2020 and 2021 as calls for racial justice came from all over the country in the wake of george floyd's murdered dozens of companies across america made commitments to enhance the diversity, equity, and inclusion efforts. but in the past year a new pattern has taken hold. as donald trump rallied against dei initiatives on the campaign trail american companies like ford and john deere cut their diversity programs. over the summer the supreme court outlawed affirmative action in college admissions. diversity efforts are winding down in nearly every corner of the nation just in time for trump to return to the white house. joining me now is professor of arts and sciences and sociology

department at washington university in st. louis. professor, thank you for being with me on this friday night. what's your reaction to this louisiana case? and what is the impact we are likely to see from it? >> well, i'm going to be a little ambiguous and unclear and say it's a really bad idea. i'm going to beat around the bush a little bit for you , but yeah. this is not a really good choice when it comes to organizations, and the reason is because organizations are in a position where they are more diverse they are better able to innovate, improve economic returns, and organizations have to take intentional steps to get to that point. when we see them being hamstrung by those judicial rules that make that more difficult what we are actually seeing is organizations being put in a position that actually is not for, not in their best interest, because it limits and undermines their abilities to

operate in a way that is best for their long-term financial goal and success. >> is there a case study, just straightforward, that looks at a particular business, a private business, or maybe even a publicly held business that says look at their bottom line before dei was implemented they were here. after dei they were here. and that is the best case study that you have for why diversity and inclusion matters particularly concerning the bottom line for your business? >> i can actually do you one better and pointing to analysis, studies of large data sets which show comprehensively when organizations focus on dei as a core operating platform they see the returns that you are talking about. we know that inspires organizations to have a variety of different ideas. they are able to come up with types of strategies for moving forward and innovate in ways that they are far less able to

do when there is less diversity in organizational spaces, and that has been shown consistently. we know from company after company that when companies move in this direction it really is to their benefit, and that is broadly true across the board. >> one of the things i have heard consistently in this space is look, it was 2020, 2021, george floyd just happened. we paid a lot of money for consultants, workshops, we paid a lot of money for racial healing and din really didn't see results. is that a function of that practitioners? is that a function of unrealistic expectations? if so, for either of them, how do you make the metrics realistic for a business that is on the fence about continuing to invest around dei? >> it's actually a question of companies not necessarily following the evidence, it's very common i think for many organizations to do what they see other companies doing. what they see other companies doing is not necessarily what works. and there again is a wealth of information that leads to more

diversity in organizations. companies can engage in mentoring programs that include everyone, they can engage in trying to rethink outreach strategies to be more broad and include places they might otherwise overlook. they can make sure they are engaging in practices where people are more networked, but a lot of companies don't do that. instead they rely on diversity training that involve external consultants who may not necessarily know the company culture, the norms and organization, quite as well. so what i think you end up seeing are companies that do what seems popular, quick and easy, and not necessarily what works. but when companies do what works they get their results they say they want. >> all right, professor, i've got to put you on the spot. i got about 60 seconds, doom and gloom aside donald trump is going back to the white house. we have four more years of maga extensively. is dei on its deathbed? >> it's not in a good position, there's no arguing against that. but i will say it's important

to take the long view. we can think about the fact our country is changing, it is becoming more demographically diverse, and i think a lot of organizational leaders and companies realize they are in a better position by being able to be aware the fact they need their companies to meet that need and be part of a global economy. i wouldn't consider it dead just yet, but i would say it is not in the healthiest place we would like it to be. >> i would say dei has been in hospice for a well. you are free to use that. thank you, professor, for your time. i am going to be back tomorrow morning filling in for my now, it's time for "the last word" with my good friend, dr. jason johnson who is in for lawrence. jason, how's it going, my friend? >> i'm good. happy holidays to you, charles,

an