ali will be back next weekend, you can catch "velshi" every saturday and sunday morning from 10:00 a.m. to noon eastern. up next, "inside with jen psaki" begins after the break. h psaki" begins after the break. well, chris wray is on the way out and kash patel is on the way in and the story how we got here should be a big warning sign about what's to come at the fbi and beyond. senator sheldon whitehouse is a member of the senate judiciary committee and he's coming up first. plus, tech billionaires line up to kiss is a member of the judiciary committee coming up first. plus, tech billionaires line up to kiss the ring as they play catch up to elon musk. congressman ro khanna represents silicon valley and has a unique insight into how these guys operate and joins me live in a few minutes. is making polio great again what we're doing now? brand new reporting about rfk

jr.'s top confidant who petitioned the fda to revoke approval of the polio vaccine. "the new york times" reporter who broke that story is standing by in studio to talk about what she found. ♪♪ okay. with the news this week that christopher wray plans to resign as fbi director it felt like it was kind of worth revisiting why wray was in that job in the first place because it's all a reminder of a lot of things. that story starts in earnest in july of 2016 when the fbi under james comey opens its investigation into russian interference in the 2016 election. now after trump won the election, comey and other intelligence officials traveled to trump tower to brief him on their findings so far. that was actually the very first time comey ever met trump. after that first meeting trump clearly thought this was a guy he needed to keep close to him

pause three weeks later comey says he was summoned to the white house for a one-on-one dinner with trump. here's how comey described that dinner. trump said, quote, i need loyalty i expect loyalty. to my mind the demand was like sumy the bull's induction ceremony with trump in the role of the family boss. asking me if i have what it takes to be a made man. i did not and would never. i was determined not to give the president any hint of assent to this demand, so i gave silence instead. and that moment described in detail in his book and then also testified to it at that dinner, was kind of the beginning of the end for james comey. because over the next several months he would keep investigating, trump keep pushing back, and eventually trump fired him. trump also admitted why he fired him on live on television. >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey.

knowing there was no good time to do it. and, in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made up story, it's an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election, that they should have won. >> so basically comey didn't pass trump's loyalty test, didn't lift the cloud of the russian investigation or put trump above the law so trump fired him. sound familiar? so that, of course, left an opening at the fbi which trump soon filled with christopher wray. now at the time he wrote about wray in a statement, i know that he will serve his country as a fierce guardian of the law and model of integrity. and wray did exactly that, which eventually led to his downfall. christopher wray will resign at the end of the biden administration a three years before the end of his term, following in comey's footsteps as someone who was more interested in following the rule

of law than the rule of trump. this time it won't be someone like wray filling his place. this time it will be kash patel, a q nonsupporting, election denying conspiracy therapist or. he would definitely pass that loyalty test. this is, of course, not just limited to kash patel. this time trump is assembling his cabinet in a way that prioritizes loyalty over any basic qualification. i mean, in any other universe, the people that he has picked for some of the highest-ranking roles in our government wouldn't even be considered for far more inconsequential jobs in the agencies they've been selected to lead. qualified doesn't begin to describe how wrong these people are. for trump, unqualified isn't a bad thing. for trump unqualified is kind of the point.

because when you put someone in a role that they would never in a million years be considered for otherwise, you can see how that might engender a special kind of devotion and loyalty. kash patel can either run the fbi for the next ten years or he can write another follow-up to his children's book series in which he is a wizard and yes, trump is the king. rfk jr. can steer our country's health or does cameos in his wife's videosp two different paths. pete hegseth can be in charge of the department of defense or he can be back on a morning show on fox on the weekends occasionally letting an errant ax fly over its target on air. i know this is hard to do. imagine for a moment that you're one of these people. imagine a president-elect plucking you from the right wing fringe and putting you in a job you have absolutely no business doing. what wouldn't you do that are to that person if asked?

once again, once upon a time, trump asked james comey for his loyalty. he didn't get the answer he wanted. we know that. this time he's making sure that never happens again. joining me now democratic senator sheldon whitehouse who has thought about these questions a whole lot. so senator whitehouse, let me start here. i made my own case for the dangers of the loyalty trump engenders. i know you've thought about this a lot. do you disagree with any part? what did i miss in my overview there? >> well, i would start with the question that chris wray must be asking, which is, where is the gratitude? he provided complete cover for a fake investigation by the fbi of

bret kavanaugh's sexual escapades and now all he gets -- all he gets is ushered out the door. one thing to be looking for i think in the future is trying to figure out what carrots and sticks might have been offered to chris wray to get him to violate the term of office that he accepted when he signed up, which has a real purpose of its own. it is intended to separate the tenure of an fbi director from the political cycle of presidential elections. and he has deliberately dumped it right back into that cycle. so i think there's probably a fair amount going on behind the scenes that we need to keep digging away at. >> senator, i mean that's a -- he has a ten-year term, three years left. i know you've expressed dismay and you just did again about him stepping back from that. what kind of carrots do you think there could be or what questions are you looking for more information on in that

regard? >> i mean, it's hard to tell, but if you take a look at what has happened to my colleague, a very good person, joni ernst, when she stood up and suggested that she might oppose trump's secretary of defense nominee, she has been subject to what i call the flying monkey, the far right internet attack machine coming after her. she's been subject to threats to fund a primary against her. she's really been battered as much as they possibly can to try to get her back in line. the notion they don't use sticks to try to clear people out of the way for nominees that they want we're through that and see where chris wray lands. how big his clients are, how much his pay package is, all that stuff. there could be significant carrots there to have encouraged him to abandon his term for

trump. >> it sounds like you're saying that christopher wray, right, there might be incentives for him in your view on the other side of this, hence hem stepping back as he did not waiting for trump to get him fired which is a significant thing to be watching and significant for you to say. the other piece which is what happened to senator joni ernst and what has surprised me a bit -- it may not surprise you -- that's what i'm interested in knowing more it's been quiet publicly around kash patel and his nomination. i thought this was a nomination that there would be more opposition, especially from republicans about given his conspiracy laden history. that is accurate? is there anything happening behind the scenes in terms of opposition? or is your suspicion he's going to get confirmed to a ten-year term? >> well, we saw with respect to matt gaetz, who was perhaps the

most spectacularly unqualified of all of these unqualified nominees, nominated to lead the agency that does criminal investigations with his only experience of criminal investigations being the subject of them. and what we've discovered is that a lot of the pushback that convinced him to withdraw or the trumsteres to ask him to withdraw came quietly. i think that's because people don't want to put their heads above, the way joni ernst did, and get the kind of treatment she has been getting. so there's every reason to believe that there is actually a lot of quiet concern about kash patel, the two obvious things are you really don't want an fbi director who wants to use that position to try to direct, intimidate and control the american media, and you really don't want one who comes in with an enemy's list of his own that

he wants to you are pursue with justification. he has said both of those things. we know what his enemy's list looks like and who is on it. there's got to be a lot of republicans looking at this saying do i want to own this guy from the next four years by voting for him? >>, and it sounds like -- i wonder if you think that the hearings might be a moment where we might see more either a building of quiet opposition or even public opposition at some point to kash patel at that point in january? >> yeah. i think the hearings provide a moment where concern about somebody like patel can be catalyzed and power up the back-channel signals to the white house, you got to -- you can't make us vote for this guy. he's too much of a menace. he endangers me. i'm up in two years they could say, and if everything he does in two years is a perspective ad against me -- because i voted

for him knowing all this stuff -- so please get me off the hook here. i think the way patel handles the hearing will help signal which way the republican quiet campaign leads. >> the quiet campaign has been interesting from the beginning but we'll have to wait maybe for more in january. i wanted to ask you about one of your other colleagues, senator mitt romney said on cnn, asked if he was concerned about trump's threats of retribution. here's part of his exchange. >> are you worried at all about being a target for retribution you or members of your family? >> no. i've been pretty clean throughout my life. i'm not worry about criminal investigations. and i don't know how much by the way of what the president says is hyperbole, this person ought to be jailed and that person, said during the last two campaigns, but i think president trump is likely to try to focus on the future.

>> senator romney has also spoken out when he's had concerns -- more than many republican senators have -- but i want to know what you thought about this notion what trump is saying is hyperbole? there's a question a lot of people have is this real, should we prepare for it to be real? is it bluster? how are you thinking about it? >> well, i do think there's an element of hyperbole and bluster. trump is known for both of those things. that doesn't mean he won't act on his hyperbole and bluster. mitt romney is a wealthy, powerful, experienced, talented public figure, with enormous resources to fight back. i think the real danger is more to people who don't have all of those resources like, for instance, those two poll workers who were so picked on by rudy giuliani that they've now turned

him broke by getting a massive judgment against him. there's a point where just the threat of having them come after you can completely up end a person's life, and i think that's where the danger is. the danger is less for the mitt romney of the world and more for people who don't have those kind of resources to push back when the attack comes. >> this is such an important point. we're talking about tens of thousands, if not more dollars, in legal fees that people would need. thank you for making that point. senator sheldon whitehouse, i can't wait to see you in these hearings. you will have kash patel before you, pam bondi. i hope you'll come back and talk to us about it. i appreciate you joining us. >> happy to. coming up we know how kash patel could abuse his power at the fbi because we've seen it happen before. tim is a pulitzer-prize winning journalist and leading expert on the bureau , and its history an joins me after a quick break. isd

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we already know kash patel is an election denying qanon er thattist with -- conspiracist wn ax to grind. the risk of the abuse of the power is in the wrong hands. we know that because we've seen it before. under former fbi director j. edgar hoover the bureau acted with impunity engaging in searches and seizures, break-in and carrying out illegal arrests. the bureau has seen reform since the hoover era but it doesn't take much imagination to understand what kash patel could do if he's confirmed. that's why his nomination is alarming to people like john bolton, trump's national security adviser, patel's boss. in a journal op-ed bolton

compared him to the secret please under stalin who imprisoned a million political opponents on false charges. bolton writes patel's conduct in mr. trump's first term and thereafter indicates as fbi director he would operate according to reported comments to stalin. show me the man and i'll show you the crime. that's pretty chilling i would have to say for someone who is kash patel's boss. and yet not a single republican senator has raised any significant public concern about patel's nomination. my last guest said maybe that will come in the hearings or be quiet, but it does -- is kind of an eye opener worth discussing. as "the new york times" put it patel appears to be on a glide path for confirmation. we'll see. joining me is tim weiner, a pulitzer journalist and leading expert on the fbi and the cia and he's the award-winning author of two best selling books on those agencies.

perfect christmas gifts for people who are looking to better understand some very important agencies in the next years to come. i wanted to ask you, you said in an interview that kash patel would make the fbi an instrument of political repression. which is quite a description. you know a lot about this agency, so explain to us what does that mean in practice? >> for 25 years, until his death in 1972, j. edgar hoover turned the fbi into an instrument of political warfare against the american left and the press and even wound up bugging members of richard nixon's national security counsel as threats to nixon. he used wiretapping, bugging, in break-in, dirty tricks to destroy people. just the threat of an fbi investigation can really undo a person's life.

now, you could say kash patel might be j. edgar hoover minus 30 or 40 i.q. points. the power of the bureau in his hands is immense and his elevation to director of fbi, along with trump's other picks for national security posts, represent a disastrous rise of misplaced power. >> so one of the things that you have written about and it's true since that era is that there have been some reforms. there are still tools at the fbi direct's disposal. talk to us about what some of those tools are? what are you watching for in terms of what could be done under kash patel that could impact everyday americans? >> i would anticipate a direct attack on journalists and their sources. i would expect kash patel to do

what he was ordered to do by donald trump four years ago in 2020, which is to use his investigative powers to ransack the intelligence files of this country for information that could somehow magically absolve donald trump of the connections he and his campaign had russian spies during the 2016 election and to use the power of investigation as a tool of intimidation and ultimately political repression. >> one of the challenges the bureau -- and i know you've talked about this, too, and other law enforcement agencies and institutions are facing -- is that for so many years trump and the people around him have attacked and delegitimized him. there have been statements from some republican senators that have suggested that what kash patel is representing is exactly what they want. they want sort of a complete,

you know, ridding of the business as usual in the fbi. are you surprised that so many senate republicans seem eager to support him, or is that surprising to you at this point? >> trump owns them. he owns what we used to call the republican party. it's his now. the democrats have no leadership. they have no power. and they have no answers to what trump now proposes to do. kash patel has specifically said that he would assign everybody at the fbi to do crimes and not national security investigations for all its history, 100 years, the fbi has been the law enforcement agency, but also an intelligence agency. it goes after spies, foreign spies and their american agents, who threaten to undermine this

country. kash patel wants everybody at the fbi to do bank robberies, white collar crimes, but you cannot imagine the combined power of the fbi and the cia under donald trump's control to do damage to the national security of the united states. i would add that over the past 50 years since hoover died, the fbi has investigated presidents. they investigated nixon for watergate. they investigated ronald reagan for the iran-contra scandal. they investigated bill clinton, and famously they investigated donald trump for his campaign's ties to russian spies. i will bet you any wager you care to make that the fbi will not be investigating the president of the united states for the next four years. >> i'm not going to take the other side of that wager. some people might.

you -- few people know more about the power of these agencies that's so important for people to understand. i really, really appreciate you joining us. thank you so much for your time. coming up tech billionaires are lining up to kiss the ring ahead of donald trump's inauguration and they are bringing their checkbooks. california congress man ro khanna represents the heart of silicon valley. he joins me next. valley he joins me next at this craftmanship. i mean they even got my nostrils right. it's just nice to know that years after i'm gone this guy will be standing the test of ti... he's melting! oh jeez... nooo... oh gaa... only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty ♪ still have moderate to severe ulcerative colitis... ...or crohn's disease symptoms after taking... ...a medication like humira or remicade? put them in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief with rinvoq. check. when flares tried to slow me down,...

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no doubt been watching as the bet has paid off for musk. they've been watching as trump and musk have refused to separate since election day. every time trump goes somewhere it's like the where is elon's version of where's waldo. this is yesterday. what is going on in this photo. i can't even totally figure it out. it's strange. these other billionaires have probably watched as those shares of tesla soared by 70% since election day. and they watched trump task musk to serve as co-chair of the department of government efficiency d.o.g.e. if you want to call it that. yes, someone whose companies were promised billions in government contracts having a role like that might be a conflict of interest, i suspect, but for some reason his competitors are giving him benefit of the doubt. >> i believe pretty strongly that elon will do the right thing and that americans will be

profoundly un-american to use political power to the degree that elon has it, to hurt your competitors and advantage your own businesses. i don't think people would tolerate that. i don't think elon would do it. >> i take it face value what has been said, which is that, you know, he is not going to use his political power to advantage his own companies or to disadvantage his competitors. i take that at face value. >> i mean, either they're completely naive, which seems hard to believe, or interested in playing the same game or some other explanation. count me as more skeptical than those two. on a related note reuters reporting the trump transition team has proposed' eliminating a federal reporting requirement for car crashes that requires automakers to report crashes with automated driving systems. reuters reports removing the

disclosure provision would benefit tesla, which has reported most of the crashes, more than 1500, to federal safety regulators under the program. i mean, maybe it's just a coincidence. joining me is california congress man ro khanna whose district is in the heart of silicon valley, always speaks his mind. great to see you. i want to ask you, i mean you know these guys pretty well. you know the industry quite well and speak your mind. what do you make of the courting of trump by these tech billionaires? some of their proactive engagements. is this business as usual or something different? >> well, it's not surprising. some of them had courted him even in the first term. i remember tim cook flying to meet with him in 2017. the reality is that they're concerned about the power trump is going to weald on tariffs. they're concerned about ai regulation. they're concerned about issues of who is going to decide

procurement processes. obviously, i want transparency, and i don't like that we're losing part of silicon valley, but that's what's motivating them. >> let me ask you a different way, a different type of question as we're trying to understand it. you've known elon musk for a long time. what do you think of the assessment from jeff bezos and sam altman that he won't use his political power to advantage his own companies or disadvantage his competitors? >> well, look, i have said that there should be financial disclosures and he should recuse himself where there's a conflict of interest. i don't think it matters what someone's motive is. members of congress, most of us, come in with pure motives, but we still have to have financial disclosures and deal with conflicts of interest because those guardrails are there for a reason. but i have said also that the democrats shouldn't just say we're not going to work with d.o.g.e. on anything. instead we should focus his

efforts on places where there actually is waste like the department of defense, which is 56% of the budget and it was president obama who helped create spacex with ash carter, elon disrupted boeing and lockheed. if he wants to disrupt the five primes in the pentagon and save money that's a good thing. >> i want to ask you about d.o.g.e. and there have been efforts in to make the government more efficient. what i'm curious about, we know that elon musk gave $250 million in a range of ways to trump's campaign. there was just a rollback according to reuters of the requirement to report car crashes by automated vehicles. i mean, maybe it's a coincidence. i think the question i have is what concern you have about how his proximity could be used for his business advantage? do you have no concern that could happen? >> that's why there needs to be transparency.

obviously, there should be financial disclosure and vigilance from congress to make sure that he's not going after the consumer financial protection bureau, not going after medicare, not going after medicaid, not going after social security, not trying to deregulate in an industry. the first i'm hearing about this car regulation, but it sounds like common sense regulation, and i support it being there in terms of reporting requirements on crashes of autonomous vehicles. if there are efforts like that, then congress needs to speak up and we need to hold that to account. but there also needs to be an effort for democrats to say, we're for spending money on people we're not for wasting it. i don't think that's controversial to say we want to direct the efforts in looking at where there is waste and we can make government better. >> i agree, i think cutting waste and making things more efficient is a good thing. one of the challenges is there are two big pots to cut from,

right. there is the defense budget which has a lot of money in it. trump at one point expressed an openness to that during the first term and backed off of it. and then there is entitlement cuts which you're against. i think the question is, like, if trump opposes entitlement cuts which he said, we'll see if he's not going to cut the defense budget how does elon musk get to this $2 trillion in savings? >> well, what i'm not sure is $2 trillion one year or ten years. one year it's impossible. ten years you have to have cuts in defense. i mean the reality is, he shouldn't touch social security, medicaid, medicare. trump claims he won't. the 56% of discretionary budget is defense. those are being dominated by five primes. there's f-35s that have had almost a $200 billion overrun because lockheed has a sole source contract no competition. when i was in japan rahm emanuel

said it's embarrassing. we can't produce the weapons we're promise because of the monopolization. same thing happened with ukraine. our defense department was unable to produce in time the weapons. so if we can have reform of defense that's great. there's a larger point here -- and i have my criticisms of musk in terms of transparency -- but here's the truth, the average american they think that someone who puts rockets up into space that's a pretty cool thing and the democratic party has to get back to being a party that celebrates building, entrepreneurship, innovation, while at the same time, holding people to account. obama had that. clinton had that. i don't think we should be a party that isn't for building the future. >> no question. innovation is good. cutting waste is good. i think there's some understandable skepticism about elon musk as role. the effort to do that is certainly one there should be some openness to. we'll be watching and

questioning too. congress man ro khanna, thank you for joining. donald trump says he's going to be listening to bobby when it comes to public health and vaccinations. who is bobby listening to. we learned about that this week and i will tell you about it coming up next. d i will tell yot coming up next ♪♪ vicks vapostick provides soothing non-medicated vicks vapors. easy to apply for the whole family. vicks vapostick. and try new vaposhower max for steamy vicks vapors.

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thank you for giving. bobby, look, here's the story. you can work in food, you can work on anything you want. he wants health. he wants women's health, men's

health, kids, he wants everything. i'm going to let him go wild on health. i'm going to let him go wild on the food. let him go wild on medicines. >> i'm going to let him go wild on medicines. this week robert f. kennedy jr. will head to capitol hill where he will meet with senators about his nomination to lead the department of health and human services. and right now rfk's long history of conspiracy-driven science medical theories is understandably getting some attention. at the top of the list is his anti-vaccine activism. i mean, just think back to four years ago. during the covid pandemic the height of it. kennedy was a leader in spreading misinformation and urging people not to get vaccinated. making baseless and frankly unhinged statements like saying that the covid vaccine was the, quote, deadliest vaccine ever made. of course there have been mult. studies that found hundreds of thousands of americans could have lived if they had chosen to

be vaccinated against the virus. could have lived. if they had not been scared off by the conspiracies out of a number of people online including rfk jr. and yet, just four years later, donald trump has picked him to steer the nation's health system. donald trump is somewhat alarmly start to let some of kennedy's thinking seep into his own. trump has flirted with the debunk theory that vaccines cause autism. >> do you want to see childhood vaccines eliminated? >> if they're dangerous. >> studies show there is no link between vaccines and autism and yet it sounds like you are open to the possibility of him looking to getting rid of them. >> somebody has to find out. something is going on. >> i mean, something is going on. no. actually, it's not. trump keeps saying it. again raise the the theory in "time" a few days later.

in that interview he said this, i'm going to be listening to bobby. he does not disagree with vaccinations, all vaccinations. he disagrees probably with some. we're going to do what's good for the country. so i guess my question is, what is listening to bobby look like when push comes to shove? if trump is listening to bobby who is bobby going to be listening to? well, according to reports from politico, among others, kennedy is being advised by multiple anti-vaccine activists including the communications director of his campaign and the founder of one of the largest anti-vacs organizations. a guy who served y' personal lawyer for the last two years. "the new york times" reporting kennedy is interested in making him the top lawyer at hhsa pay cut for seerry who has done millions in legal work for anti-vax organizations like in 2022 when he petitioned the

government on behalf of icahn to revoke the approval of the polio vaccine. which has protected millions of people for decades. and virtually eliminated a virus here in the united states that can cause paralysis and death. now that news has drawn widespread condemnation across party lines. republican senator mitch mcconnell, who is a polio survivor himself, issued a statement responding to that story reads in part, the polio vaccine has saved millions of lives and held out the promise of eradicating a terrible disease. efforts to undermine public confidence in proven cures are not just uninformed, they're dangerous. anyone seeking the senate's consent to serve in the incoming administration would do well to steer clear of even the appearance of association with such efforts. let's be clear, when it comes to

rfk jr. this is some of the most radical figures in the antivaccine movement. trump is going to be listening to bobby and bobby listening to aaron suri. i don't know if we grasp what that can mean. the reporter who broke that story about the polio vaccine joins me next. kevin!!! and kevin - uh, i mean, macaulay - take a very special trip to the mall where anything... come and get your little kev! is... cashbackable!!! -really? -yeah. anything is cashbackable!!! chill. sorry! 'tis the season to cashback with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase, make more of what's yours. oh... stuffed up again? so congested! you need sinex saline from vicks. just sinex, breathe, ahhhh! what is — wow! sinex. breathe. ahhhhhh!

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reported this week one of rfk jr.'s top allies once petitioned regulators to revoke the polio. aaron siri is representing and petitioning the fda to pause distribution of 13 other vaccines including products that cover cover tenuous, diphtheria and polio and hepatitis a. joining me one of the "new york times" reporters who broke that story. few people who know more about the health care industry, policy making, all of this than you. thank you for your expertise in this moment we're trying to learn. let me start here, because a lot of people haven't focused on the rfk jr. nomination. tell us about aaron siri. who is this person and what does mean in the rfk jr. world? >> aaron siri is a lawyer in new york. he handles vaccine related cases. he has long represented clients who say they're injured by vaccines.

i encountered him last year when i wrote a story about a lawsuit in mississippi that revoked the religious or that restored rather the religious exemption for vaccines. they were trying to make it easier for parents to opt out of childhood vaccination and they won. it turns out aaron siri is also, as you mentioned, the lead lawyer for the informed consent action network a group you would call it antivac, they would call it vaccine safety or medical freedom. they are targeting vaccines and the fda and cdc. aaron siri is their lawyer. he's filed all kinds of petitions, freedom of information act requests, lawsuits. that mississippi lawsuit was filed on behalf of icahn. icahn is run by kennedy's communication director on the

campaign. they're kind of a trika of call them what you want, vaccine skeptics, anti-vaxxer, resistors. they could end up, we will see, as part of an rfk jr. team which is very different from being on a campaign -- >> they already are part of the team. >> they could end up in government. >> siri -- right now, as kennedy is interviewing candidates for hhs positions should he get confirmed, siri is by his side taking the lead in questioning. he is advising him all the way through. he's been down in west palm beach with kennedy. kennedy would -- has told people privately he would like aaron siri to be his general counsel at hhs. my bet that doesn't happen. aaron siri is a very successful lawyer and probably doesn't want to give up his legal practice. it doesn't mean that he couldn't continue to advise kennedy as

some kind of, you know, special employee or even from an outside capacity. >> so one of the fears i think that's understandable -- many fears out there -- is that if these vaccines are no longer approved, no longer covered by insurance companies, there becomes a divide in society in some ways, right? i mean, poor people won't be able to get access to them. people who don't have the resources. many more issues than that >> the fear is there becomes an epidemic in society. >> of course. >> people will die. >> my question which i think a lot of people are wonder out there, how do they do this? they're in government. rfk jr. is the secretary. he has these people advising him. what are you watching for in terms of the actions that could lead to these vaccines leading to an epidemic, people not having access? >> you can't do it with the wave of a wand. >> right. >> it would be a long process, but the process begins with a

petition seeking that the fda withdraw approval of the polio vaccine. he has a specific grounds. he says until such time as a placebo controlled randomized clinical trial can be done -- and that is science jargon for sort of the gold standard for scientific research in which a vaccine is compared against a placebo, an inert vaccine, double blind, nobody knows who gets what. that is the way vaccines were tested. that is the way the vaccine was tested in the 1950s over sauk's objections because he didn't want to withhold the vaccine from anybody. he thoughts kids deserved a vaccine he knew was life-saving but it was tested against placebo and approved. once you have a new vaccine, it would be unethical to withhold a life-save life-saving shot from an infant. you don't test a new vaccine

against placebo. you test it against the old vaccine. >> we are so grateful for your expertise. i mean we're all going to -- rfk jr. is on the hill this week. likely hearings in january. i hope you will come back and talk to us more about it as we try to understand how this works and watching your additional reporting. thank you for joining me. >> thank you so much. >> i have one more thing to tell you about. a good fun thing. we're back after a very quick break. very quick break. ible to clean. you need mr. clean magic eraser in your life. with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis my skin was no longer mine. my active psoriatic arthritis joint symptoms held me back. don't let symptoms define you... emerge as you, with clearer skin. with tremfya®, most people saw 100% clear skin... ...that stayed clear, even at 5 years. tremfya® is proven to significantly reduce joint pain, stiffness, and swelling. serious allergic reactions

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we've got some exciting news to celebrate this week. don't we all need exciting news? we have a new little member of our show family our incredibly talented, i can't emphasize that enough, director josh haskins and his wife katie welcomed a new baby girl this week, her name is edie and she is perfect as you can see in that picture. mom, dad and little edie are all doing great. we can't wait to meet her. we miss you but most of all hope the family has a wonderful holiday together this holiday season. that does it for me today. we will see you back tomorrow night at 8:00 p.m. eastern. stay where you are because there's more news coming up on msnbc. ♪♪ very good day to all of you from msnbc world headquarters in new york. welcome to "alex witt reports." it's 36 days until inauguration day with president-elect donald trump's adra