good evening and welcome to "politics nation ." tonight's lead, on pardons and come commutations. last week i was heartened to see that as he prepares to leave the white house, president biden either pardoned or commuted sentences for more than 1,500 americans of all backgrounds. the common thread of biden's pardons was that they were all for nonviolent crime and certainly not crimes against the united states itself. in contrast, president-elect donald trump is just distorting that principle by insisting he will on day one pardon those who attacked the u.s. capitol

in his name four years ago. at the same time he wants to prosecute the mostly democratic lawmakers who challenged his actions as president on that day. in the middle are vulnerable people, mixed-status families that would be shattered by mass deportation, minorities who would be harmed by the extreme positions of his picks for cabinet, and civil rights activists are bracing for what they and i think will be an explosion of human suffering under trump 2.0. joining me now is congressman bennie thompson, democrat of mississippi and former chair of the house select committee on the january 6th attack. congressman, first, thank you for being with us. we appreciate you coming on tonight. president-elect trump continues to say he'll pardon most of those detained or convicted in

connection with the january 6th attack on his first day in office he says he'll do it. now you having chaired the january 6th probe, what's the possibility of seeing these people walk free with trump's blessings? >> thanks so much for having me. what people saw january 6th with their very own eyes really did happen. our task as a committee was to look at the facts and circumstances that brought it about. clearly, at the end of our work donald trump created the climate. he basically sent people to the capitol to do what they did. we were not a prosecutorial body, so, therefore, the department of justice would have to do that, but for someone to say i'm going to pardon these patriots for

breaking into the capitol, harming and assaulting law enforcement officers, threatening members of congress and employees who work in the capitol and if you remember, they chanted hang mike pence who at the time was vice president of the united states. my position is those individuals should never be pardoned because their insurrectionist activities is not who we are as a nation. so in our opinion as a committee, he created it, but in this position he's absolutely wrong in even entertaining the notion of pardoning people who would do such a dastardly deed as what occurred on january 6th. >> staying with that, there's been some saying that since the president-elect has threatened to go after people and that

president biden should therefore give preemptive pardons, you have said that you would take a preemptive pardon from president biden, as he reportedly considers this for people that trump has threatened like current and former house members he's called to be imprisoned for their work on the january 6th committee. are you expecting a pardon from president biden and are you worried about the safety of your colleagues in the next congress? >> well, what i'm more concerned about is the separation of powers authority inherent in our constitution. we are a legislative body. our committee was tasked with the responsibility as a legislative body to do just what we did. now some members of the executive branch who decides at the legislative branch was wrong and should go to jail is

not with the law, but donald trump is known not to follow the law. he's a convicted felon. he's been excused for some of the activities because a supreme court determined that they were in the pursuit of his responsibility. we differ with that, but nonetheless the supreme court ruled, but to be honest with you, as i look at it, it's clear from our vantage point that we did our job. it's clear that in doing our job donald trump disagreed with it, but to threaten someone with jail because you disagreed with them is not who we are as a nation and we got to be number one as a nation because we settle our differences either at the ballot box or in the court of law. just because an individual dictates what he wants, that's

not the law and in this instance donald trump is wrong. >> in light of that do you fear that donald trump will try and go after, target you as chairman and others in the committee and -- >> i don't think there's any doubt. >> he'll go after you, there's no doubt i assume you're saying, he'll go after people. so in light of that, do you think president biden should do preemptive pardons and would you accept one if he offered it? >> well, let me say this. if the president in his infinite wisdom determined that the work of our committee was legitimate and that we should not be penalized for doing what we as members of congress should do and he offers that pardon, i will take it.

look, i know what the trump administration says they will do. if he says that he will try to do it, the law has nothing to matter in his eyes. so for bennie thompson's perspective and i hope the other members of the president, if president biden offers it, take it. the people who support me said look, we voted for you. because we voted for you, you're not to be penalized for doing your job. there's a difference between right and wrong and doing your job. >> right. >> former president and soon to be president again trump takes everything so personally. you know, it's so unfortunate that to deal with a person you're threatened to going to jail. we are a better country than that, rev, so at some point you either have to stand against this kind of action or you'll

fall for anything. >> now it's not just the january 6th attack ergs trump has elevated for taking the law into their own hands. he's just hosted former u.s. marine daniel penny at yesterday's army/navy football game just days after penny was acquitted of murder in his chokehold killing of jordan neely here in new york last year. like the insurrectionists, penny's actions have made him a hero to the right, including j.d. vance who said he should be admired for his "courage." he choked a man to death, unarmed man making disturbances, but unarmed, no physical threat, anyone said that he in any way physically went after them. with this kind of support for violent vigilantism from the incoming administration do you think we'll see more of it when they enter the white house? >> well, unfortunately, i think we will. it's not i think who we are as

a country, but when i look at the people who are being identified with going into this administration, when i look at his fbi nominee, when i look at his intelligence recommendation, all these individuals are on record being extreme about this government of ours not doing what it should for certain people and this notion that all of a sudden diversity, equity, and inclusion is a bad word and so the founding fathers in their infinite wisdom created this document that was for all people. now when you try to explain what all these people mean, then somehow it's bad and so we have as democrats to look at this and we have to make sure that we stand on the rule of law. it's not about the rule of an

individual. this is not an authoritarian government. it's not a dig dictatorship. it's a democracy. in a democracy you're not put in jail for having a different opinion. so unfortunately, president- elect trump is not of the rational result of a democracy. he 2 wants it to be all about him and that's so unfortunate, but for a lot of us, we are the loyal opposition. we'll stand on principle and that's where we'll stand. >> i'm out of time, but i must ask you one last question in light of what you're saying. robert f. kennedy jr., president-elect's pick to lead the department of health and human services, is set to head to the capitol this week for meetings with multiple senators. last week his lawyer petitioned

the food and drug administration to revoke its approval of the polio vaccine which has saved millions of people over several decades from the disease's impact. it's just one of the many vaccines kennedy has campaigns against along with the treatment of drinking water with fluoride. mississippi is a beautiful state. i've been down there, as you know, in your district. >> right. >> i've done things with you there, but it struggles with poor metrics in nearly every health-related outcome and particularly for its poor, black, and rural residents. if kennedy is confirmed, how will his policies impact vulnerable communities, some of which you represent in congress? >> well, there's no question. if kennedy and his policies go forward if he's confirmed, there will be more people dying unnecessarily simply because we

can't prevent it. you know, we rid our country of the scourge of polio because we started vaccinating all our citizens. we required it. now they want all of a sudden to do away with it. this junk science is not who we are as a nation. now our medical researchers and professionals are saying we will be headed in the wrong direction. i believe medical science and those who work in it rather than somebody who is basically a quack in terms of what he's talking about. >> thank you for being with us, mississippi congressman and former chair of the january 6th committee, chair bennie thompson. now to the anxious anticipation that civil rights groups are feeling over the incoming trump administration and what it means for our civil liberties. joining me now is deborah

archer, president of the aclu, the american civil liberties union. good to have you on, ms. archer. civil and human rights advocacy groups, including i head one, have strongly criticized the president-elect's pick to lead the civil rights division of the justice department, conservative legal advocate ha harmeet dhillon. if confirmed, she would preside over the federal enforcement of our civil and voting rights. what's the aclu's position on having dhillon in this job right now? >> first, thank you for asking me to join you. at the aclu we don't endorse or oppose nominees for politically- a -

appointed offices, but we're aware the doj civil rights division plays a critical role in defending the most critical rights and freedoms and eric holder once called it the jewel of the justice department for good reason. the division has been at the forefront of efforts to dismantle systemic racism, to promote voting rights and voting access, and to defend marginalized groups from discriminatory practices and during president trump's first administration he really did stack the justice department with people who turned back the clock on civil rights forcements and that could ring true in his second administration as well. with this nominee the positions i understand she's taken in recent years in regards to vulnerable and marginalized communities, transgender people, voters of color, as well as her support of lawsuits challenging the 2020 election are all deeply concerning and there is some indications that she's going to prioritize discrimination against white people and a focus on

dismantling important tools of inclusion even as we continue to see incidents of anti- semitism, islamophobia, antilgbtq bias and anti-black race. on the rise and while the aclu doesn't endorse or oppose nominees for politically- appointed positions, we certainly encourage the senate to take its advise and consent responsibility seriously by carefully considering the civil rights and civil liberties record of all nominees, including this one. our civil rights division deserves a leader who recognizes and works to fix the systemic injustices that continue to harm people in communities of color, people with disabilities, lgbtq people, and other vulnerable communities and their decisions shape the nation's progress towards a society where we all have a voice and we all have access to equal opportunity. >> now the present head of that

division has worked i think, my personal opinion, very diligently in that area and has a track record that's probably the best i've seen, but civil rights groups are also alarmed at trump's mass deportation plan that would disproportionately hurt hispanic families and people of color, haitians, others, and now we've learned several far right militia groups want to help the president-elect with his purge. the trump team has rejected the offer so far insisting they will only use state and federal resources, though trump's incoming border czar has signaled an appreciation for the gesture. as you know, some of these far right groups have been privately patrolling our southern border for decades often leading to violence against migrants. what happens if trump decides to take up on the offer? >> well, quite simply, it's illegal and dangerous.

although the law allows local police to be deputized under supervision of the federal government, it doesn't allow untrained private militias to enforce our immigration laws and for me and for the aclu, what we continue to focus on is whether or not these groups provide assistance to trump's deportation efforts. we know that anti-immigration policies of a second trump administration will be far more aggressive and inflict far more damage and harm than those we saw in his first term. the plans for the second term will tear apart families and devastate our communities, our economy. mass arrests and detention would become the norm to carry out the largest deportation operation in history. trump's immigration plans are by far crueler, more extreme and more fundamentally damaging to core rights and freedoms than any in living memory, including in his own first administration, and the mass

raids and deportations, the detention camps and other measures that will create terror in our communities and do nothing to make our immigration system function more effectively are going to be pushed forward regardless of whether or not he engages these private militia. >> after the civil rights division did such work it's frightening for many of us in the civil rights community to see this nominee. last week more than 1,500 americans -- i want to raise this to you -- more than 1,500 americans received federal clemency from president biden. the white house says more clemency announcements should be expected in his final five weeks and a group of human rights activists, former prison officials and crime victim families, are pleading with the president to clear all 40 federal death row inmates in advance of trump's return to the white house. the aclu is one of the groups

calling for the commutation. what can you tell us about that? >> first, on the ones he's already announced, i think biden's clemency actions while really long overdue, it's welcome news to the thousands of people who will no longer have to worry about being sent back to federal prison if trump revokes their home confinement. almost 1,500 of those people were placed on home confinement during the pandemic. since being released under the c.a.r.e.s. act, these people have reintegrated into their communities. they've built careers and families and data shows 99% of the original 13,000 people released successfully reintegrated into the communities. it's a model for success and we're glad that president biden took that action, but at the same time we're asking him to go further. as you articulate about the death penalty, the death penalty is immoral. it does not make us any safer.

it magnifies the systemic racial discrimination that already plagues our criminal legal system and the aclu, the naacp legal defense fund, the southern poverty law center, amnesty usa and about 130 other civil rights and human rights organizations sent a letter to the white house urging president biden to commute federal death sentences. biden was the first president to openly oppose the death penalty and we think he has to follow through on his campaign promise to address the failed death penalty and commute these federal death sentences. doing so will not just fulfill his campaign promise, it's going to uphold his commitment to racial justice and it's going to save lives. as you mentioned, there was a widespread of support across political and faith spectrums and we're joining hundreds of others in this call, including faith leaders, former correction officials, business leaders, prosecutors, innocence

organizations, families who lost loved ones to homicide, mental health advocates, and many more. and it's important to keep in mind that president-elect trump has an extreme stance on capital punishment. he plans to expand the categories of crimes by death and sentence more people to die and execute every person on federal death row. >> i think by way of disclosure i have joined that and called for marilyn mosby, jesse jackson jr. and others to be pardoned. before we lose you, though, let me ask the same question i just put to congressman thompson and i know it's not necessarily an area that the aclu is heavily involved with, but i'm interested in your opinion as a law professor who is educating future leaders and lawyers, trump continues to talk about

vigilantes like the january 6th insurrectionists he's pledged to pardon and daniel penny who watched a football game with president-elect trump yesterday days after choking an unarmed man to death. it's hard for me to imagine trump's imagination of violent and white vigilantes won't lead to more violence against certain groups likely to be accelerated by his migrant purge. your brief thoughts not necessarily on this case, but particularly on the messages that it sends. >> yeah. i agree 100%. the message president trump sends should be deeply troubling to all of us. for years we've seen donald trump and his allies aggressively push law and order rhetoric while encouraging extra legal action by vigilante groups and individuals, but the far right violent organizations that donald trump has promoted are not new. in fact, they have deep roots in u.s. history and i think

it's also a reminder that an overarching harm that we will experience regardless of the ultimate success of any of these policies that we've talked about is an increase in harassment and hate crimes. trump has given a green light to hateful rhetoric and when the federal government or the president attacks a group of people, encourages other people to attack a group of people, other folks join in and do the same and i think we'll see a surge in hate crimes and hate- motivated violence in the way we saw during his first term. >> thank you for being with us, deborah archer, president of the aclu. coming up, president biden is ending his term with record breaking appointments to the federal bench. can we keep the momentum when trump takes office? that's next in this week's rise up.

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this week president biden made several moves that will have a lasting impact on our legal system. on monday the senate confirmed tiffany renee johnson, biden's pick to be district judge for the northern district of georgia, making her the 40th black woman to be confirmed to the federal bench under his administration. the confirmation also ties the record for the most black judges to be confirmed to lifetime appointments during a single presidency. in fact, biden is on track to appoint more judges of color than any other president. then on thursday president biden commuted the sentences of nearly 1,500 americans, the most ever in a single day. some of the commutations went to people who were convicted of drug crimes as young adults and who went on to serve in the military. others were nonviolent offenders released from prison

to home confinement during the pandemic. all of the cases were considered individually by the justice department's pardon attorney before being presented to the president. taken together, these actions reflect a vision for what american justice should be, a judicial system that looks like the population it serves and a penal system that can be tough, but also focused on mercy and rehabilitation. it is definitely not the concept of law and order that the incoming president has put forward. during the campaign and continuing through the transition, president-elect trump and his political allies have bragged about harsh and unyielding punishment for those who break the law. their idea of judges are prized for their loyalty and ideological purity rather than

their backgrounds or qualifications. in the coming years it will be up to the american people to decide which brand of law and order they want to live under. i hope they will rise up and make the right choice. we'll be right back. ♪♪ over 600,000 usps employees working in sync to ensure everything sent on its holiday ride ends with a moment of joy. ♪♪ the united states postal service.

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when you can use 1 fire extinguisher. and to fight heartburn, why take 10 antacids throughout the day when you can take 1 prilosec. for easier heartburn relief, one beats ten. prilosec otc. one pill. 24 hours. zero heartburn. welcome back to "politics nation." plenty more news to cover. let's bring in my political panel. former democratic congresswoman and msnbc political analyst donna edwards and former republican congressman joe walsh. thank you both for being with us tonight. donna, as we mentioned earlier, capitol hill is bracing for trump's health and human services pick, rfk jr., to arrive this week for at least 20 scheduled meetings with senators. what can we expect to hear? what would you want senators to

ask him? >> well, i want the senators to really focus on his past and present advocacy against vaccines because i think this is really important to head the nation's top health agency to be espousing views that are contrary to published science, that are contrary to our experience with vaccines, that are contrary to history. so i think if democrats really bore down on this and not take the i think i've changed or i'm open to consideration kinds of answers because he has a really solid record against vaccines that is both published online and, of course, the advocacy organization that he headed and i just don't think that this says a nomination that really should survive in the interests of public trust. so senators have a lot of work cut out for them.

>> joe, there's a time crunch on capitol hill right now to keep the government open. you're seeing that right five days left. do you think republicans will pull the same card again? i'm referring to a continuing resolution. joe, you start. >> yeah, absolutely, rev. look, the republicans unfortunately for the country want to hit the ground running when donald trump is sworn in. trump has a number of things he wants to get into in those first few days. so congress doesn't want to be messing around with keeping the government functioning open, operating. so my hunch is, rev, they will pass another continuing resolution probably to keep the government funded through next march, april, or may, kind of kick it down the road, which what is they always do, so they

can focus on trump's mean and cruel things like mass deportation. >> donna, i want to ask you about what's been a surprisingly successful media week for trump from being named "time magazine's" person of the year to getting millions from abc for his presidential library in a defamation lawsuit, but take a listen to trump's remarks at the new york stock exchange earlier this week. >> the media's tamed down a little bit. they're liking us much more i think. if they aren't, we'll have to take them on again. >> donna, should alarm bells be ringing for media companies right about now? >> i think they should be ringing loudly. what trump has done, he continues to use the legal system, defamation and libel, to challenge and to threaten media organizations in an effort for him to get better coverage, more positive

coverage, and we're going into an environment where as president of the united states, he's trying to tamp down any criticism of him and he's doing it by threatening media. this is like the hallmarks of authoritarian government and i think news media organizations need to get savvy to that and be much more aggressive when it comes to challenging trump on these questions. i was sad to actually see the settlement come from abc because there's a really high threshold for a public figure to allege libel and defamation and i just don't think trump met that bar and abc news just sort of folded and settled. >> for a man who always likes to say how much he likes to win and loves winners, trump is staffing his cabinet with people who actually lost their election. one recent example, he just

chose republican lawyer harmeet dhillon to run the doj's civil rights division. she lost her race to run for the rnc last year. joe, what's this all about? >> you know what it is, rev? you're right. trump loves winners, but the one thing trump loves more than twiners or anything else in the world is donald trump and so he's hiring people who will be utmost loyalist to him and he's hiring people who will commit acts of revenge and retribution for him. rev, that's the other common denominator here. he's putting people in charge of these government agencies because trump believes he's been wronged and he wants these people to use these agencies to get back at these agencies who he believes wronged him. that's what he cares about more than anything else. >> all right. thank you to former congresswoman donna edwards and

joe walsh. next on "politics nation" we'll speak to a man who was pardoned by president trump this week. he's already giving back to his community and he'll be here to tell us all about it.

welcome back to "politics nation." on thursday president biden carried out the largest single- day act of clemency by pardoning 39 people and commuting roughly 1,500 sentences. among those pardoned by biden is 58-year-old johnny earl williams of denver who was convicted of a nonviolent offense. the white house has noted that williams has worked as a criminal justice specialist and addiction counselor since his conviction and that he also gives back to his community by

volunteering and serving in his church and johnny earl joins me now. welcome to the show, johnny. mr. williams, congratulations first on your pardon. do you mind starting by sharing briefly what you were convicted for and when did it happen? >> yes. thank you, rev. i'm glad to be here. i in 1999 was convicted of a failure to report income on an income tax return and that was many years ago and i learned a lot from that since then, but that's what the conviction was and that's what the upcoming pardon that i received is going to be for. >> now the white house said that you have been working as a criminal justice specialist, addiction counselor, and a volunteer in your communities church. i'm interested to hear a bit more about your work and why it has been important to you. >> well, great.

thank you. i appreciate that. yes. i'm part of my central baptist church, been there for many years and very happy with helping out the youth in the church and working with the deacons board and trustees board and actually the audio/visual, working on that, but one of my proudest moments is being a director of denver youth program which houses the rescue and support project and we work with young people from bedside if they've been traumatically injured, shot, or stabbed all the way to if they're on the scene of an incident that happened in the community and we go to the scene and help them and if they have been traumatically injured, they can come into that clinic and get themselves healed physically, horribly, and spiritually as well. we're helping them to be well rounded so anything they're facing can be put behind them so they can actually have a chance at life. here at the denver youth

program we provide several opportunities for them to do that. >> now the white house points out you have received many awards for your charity work, including an award that honors individuals who work with young men of color. tell me more about that. >> my brother's keeper award, definitely. that was one of the great honors that i received from the mayor of denver during that time working in the community of black and brown youth that have made bad choices. we have the opportunity to bring them to a place where they can put those bad choices behind them and change their life around and support them all the way through graduation or getting another job or coming from homelessness to being able to have a home of their own. so we are super excited that we were identified as a my brother's keeper organization and me as an individual for my brother's keeper. >> thursday was the largest single day act of clemency in

modern presidential history. how did you feel to find out you were among the 39 pardoned by the president and when did you find out? >> i was in disbelief. i was on my way back for seattle. we did a training out there at the dome-related injury conference we have there every year and we were on our way back on a plane and i got a call from the white house and the gentleman was saying that he was from the white house and i said okay. i thought it was a joke, stop playing with me because i put the request for a pardon in many years ago and just gave up on it, just thought it was never going to happen and he said no, this is very real and congratulations. so that whole day i was in a fog and then the very next day when i'm back at work and we're in the office trying to get work done, the media really is the ones that made me understand that it was real because the story was already out about it. so from that point moving forward to now it's like oh, my god, this is real. this is a new lease on life for me and i can just use this

experience to keep working with my young people and share with them that you can put this -- as my grandma would say, god bless her soul, this, too, shall pass. now this is real evidence and testimony that that is now truly behind me and my brothers and myself are going to be able to move forward. >> before i let you go, what would you want young people or, frankly, for anyone watching at home to take away from your experiences, your journey? >> don't ever give up. just always keep fighting for what you want. you got to claim it and just stay faithful and it will happen. the four things my grandmother always taught me was it could always be worse. so whatever you're facing, make sure you understand it's a blessing to being in the condition you're in because you have a way to change that. she would tell me this, too, shall pass and one of my favorite gospel stocks, trouble doesn't last always. >> johnnie earl williams, congratulations and thank you for being on tonight.

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before we end tonight, i'm excited to share that next sunday at 5:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc we will air the 14th annual revvie awards where we celebrate the best and worst of politics in 2024 and give awards to those who deserve it and one of my favorite parts is the blueberry pie award. let me tell you what that is about. when i was a kid, we would sneak -- my sister and i would get blueberry pie out of the refrigerator and eat it real quick so mother wouldn't know what we were doing and when she'd come out, she'd say who has been in the blueberry pie and we'd say not us and we had blueberry pie all over us face. well, this award is for those who denied things, but the blueberry pie in politics show

up on them. so okay, let me give you a sneak preview of next week's show and one of the candidates for the blueberry pie award. well, north carolina lieutenant governor mark robinson gets a heaping helping of pie, not only for including me in his racist and sexist rants online, but for running a gubernatorial campaign so toxic that even donald trump distanced himself from it. with robinson's political career all but finished, perhaps in the new year he can return to his role as new africa.com's most prolific poster and others win and it's a whole exciting night. we'll be live here saturday night, but the revvie's will be next sunday at 5 p.m.

eastern on msnbc. that does it for me. thanks for watching! i'll see you back here next weekend at 5:00 p.m. eastern. the sunday show with jonathan capehart starts right after a short break. downy light adds a subtle fresh scent to your wash. it doesn't overwhelm like: it's campfire leather musk overload. because downy light is gentle and balanced. it's a nature inspired scent, to breathe life into your laundry.

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dad: you can talk to me. son: it's been really, really hard for me. his honor and the donald in my exclusive interview with new york city mayor eric adams, we talk about his search for common ground with president- elect donald trump who plans to crack down on migrants and sanctuary cities like new york, whether adams will seek a pardon for his federal fraud charges, and his plans to run for office again as a democrat. exit interview, california congresswoman barbara lee is here to reflect on her 25-year congressional career, the votes that made her a human rights icon and what she plans to do next. and a little lol from snl. >> j-lo's going to marry ben again just so